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- [00:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi Crime House community. It's Vanessa Richardson. And if you love digging into the most gripping true crime stories, then you need to listen to another Crime House original. Crimes of with Sabrina Deanna Roga and Corinne Vien. Crimes of is a weekly series that explores a new theme each season from Crimes of paranormal, unsolved murders, mysterious disappearances, and more. Sabrina and Corinne have been covering the true stories behind Hollywood's most iconic horror villains and and this month they'll be diving into the paranormal Listen to Crimes of every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [00:50]
Crime House Narrator
This is Crime House.
- [00:55]
Vanessa Richardson
Families can be complicated. Of course, there's usually a lot of love to go around, but that doesn't mean other feelings like resentment or jealousy aren't simmering under the surface.
- [01:07]
Crime House Narrator
During the holidays, those feelings sometimes reach their boiling points and can even lead to shouting matches across the Thanksgiving dinner table.
- [01:17]
Vanessa Richardson
And then, in some rare instances, those fights result in more than just harsh words and hurt feelings. Sometimes they turn deadly. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is a special Thanksgiving episode of Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [01:59]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And I'm Dr. Tristan Ingalls. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer. And today we're joined by a dear member of the Crime House family, Carter Roy, host of True Crime Stories.
- [02:14]
Crime House Narrator
Thanks for having me.
- [02:15]
Vanessa Richardson
Crime House is made possible by you. Follow Killer Minds and subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts for ad free early access to each two part series. And if you can't get enough true crime, go search and follow Crime House daily, our team's twice a day show bringing you breaking cases, updates and unbelievable stories from the world of crime that are happening right now. And a warning. This episode contains graphic descriptions of extreme violence, child abuse, homophobia and murder. Listener discretion is advised. This is our second deep dive on notorious Thanksgiving Day murders. In our first story, we'll unpack the rumors and scandal that rocked an extended family, eventually leading to a hostage crisis and a triple homicide. Then we'll examine the financial motives and haphazard methods behind a young man's plot to kill his own parents.
- [03:15]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And as Vanessa and Carter take us through the stories, I'll be talking about things like the impact of someone's sudden and unexplained death on their loved ones, common motives for hostage takers, and the underlying psychology of someone with no violent past. Suddenly committing heinous acts.
- [03:33]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [04:03]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [04:07]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [04:10]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [04:15]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [04:16]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [04:21]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [04:22]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [04:24]
Vanessa Richardson
Claims are filed super easily through the Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com pet and they'll help cover the vet bill for whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled drop it. Their whole lives Brothers Asmerom Tewadros and Abraham Gabriel Selassie were taught to value loyalty. In the early 90s, when they were in their 20s and 30s, they immigrated to Oakland, California from Eritrea. They set out to work hard and build a life not just for themselves, but for their friends and family too. Eventually, as Mero moved out to Las Vegas where he worked as a taxi driver, Tewadros worked as a computer app designer in Silicon Valley for a few years before taking that knowledge back to Eritrea where he founded a university. Abraham built a life in Oakland. He worked hard and eventually bought his own auto tune up shop. Oakland was one of the primary destinations for Eritrean immigrants seeking refuge from a long running war of independence in the northeastern African country. After the end of the conflict in 1991, Eritreans continued to flock to the bustling community in northern California.
- [05:39]
Crime House Narrator
In 1999, one of those people was 21 year old Winta Mehari. Winta was young, beautiful and eventually began studying business administration at Cal State East Bay. When she met Abraham, they felt an instant Spark. Despite their 14 year age difference, they started dating and in 2004, when Winta was 26 and Abraham was 40, they got married. Asmaram and Touardo seemed surprised by their brother's marriage, but when Winta gave birth to a son, Isaac, that same year, the new uncles were thrilled and quickly welcomed Winta's entire family into theirs. They even helped Winta's immediate family immigrate to Oakland, including her mother, Regby, and four of her five brothers. Tuardos, who is now living in Eritrea, worked with US Embassy officials there to help Winta's family obtain green cards.
- [06:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Let's talk about blended families for a minute. Blending families through marriage often requires some degree of boundary negotiation. Ideally, both families learn to recognize that they come from different backgrounds with different traditions or beliefs or processes. And the key is to maintain individuality while also accepting and nurturing those new connections. In many collectivist or close knit cultures, like in East African families, loyalty, hierarchy and family reputation are very important. So when new in laws enter the picture, especially from a different background or with different expectations, even if they're from the same country, there can be tension over roles, respect and authority. It's not necessarily out of hostility. It's about who gets to make decisions, who holds influence, and how love and loyalty are expressed. It sounds like, at least initially with the brothers, there was initial surprise when Abraham married Winter, perhaps maybe even some resistance. Likely because this will shift the established loyalty and hierarchy that they've grown accustomed to. But seemingly when a child entered the picture, they reacted with generosity, support and loyalty. Their family bloodline had expanded and now they had shared legacy with Winta and her family, one they may have seen as permanent. And that being said, some families can be very enmeshed and lack healthy emotional boundaries, which can be difficult to navigate on their own, let alone when blended with in laws. I don't know if enmeshment is what's happening here. I've never met the family and we're only just getting started on our deep dive. But the brothers all immigrated to the US together. When families immigrate or endure major shared adversity, they often form a survival unit. That bond can be life saving in the beginning. It creates safety, belonging and unity. And if that structure never relaxes, it can evolve into pathological enmeshment. The same closeness that once protected them starts to erase individuality. So if one person feels betrayed, everyone feels betrayed. If one person grieves, they all grieve. This kind of bond can become rigid over time, and that can create a lot of difficulty when there is changed or perceived threats, particularly when new family members are being introduced.
- [08:51]
Crime House Narrator
It seems the in laws did begin a happy life surrounded by each other. Wrigby even moved into the same apartment complex as Abraham's mother. However, the Meharis may have also been hiding a Secret. One day, Abraham called his brother Asmaram to share a suspicion he had about one of Winta's brothers. Abraham thought the young man was gay. Homosexuality is unfairly a cultural taboo in Eritrean culture, and this revelation would have brought a lot of shame to the Mehari family. But this possibility was about to be the least of their worries.
- [09:30]
Vanessa Richardson
On March 1, 2006, the day had barely begun when Wynton knew something was wrong. She stirred in bed, thinking about going to take care of Isaac and get him ready for the day. But when she rolled over to wake up Abraham, he didn't move. She nudged him and still nothing. She reared back as the truth dawned on her. Abraham wasn't breathing. Winta called 911 and told the operator she thought he'd maybe had a heart attack. The paramedics arrived, and unfortunately, they couldn't revive Abraham. They pronounced him dead. Winta was devastated. She notified Abraham's brothers, and together they all waited for the coroner's report. But when it came back, the family was even more shaken because the coroner couldn't find a cause of death.
- [10:21]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
An unexpected death, especially one without a clear explanation, can completely destabilize the people left behind. It creates ambiguous grief. When there's no cause of death and there were no prior warning signs and there's no closure, the mind struggles, and it can become psychologically stuck emotionally. Survivors often cycle between disbelief, guilt, and anger. They may begin constructing narratives to fill in the gaps, sometimes turning on each other or fixating on blame as a way to restore control. Over time, it can become obsessive for some because the lack of answers to the unexpected death becomes a trauma of its own. The family loses the function of an individual within the system as well. Whether it was the provider, the stabilizer, the patriarchy, the mediator, and reorganizing after that. Loss can be chaotic. It can stir up old conflicts and perhaps cause new ones. There's a ripple effect to an unexpected and ambiguous loss like this one.
- [11:18]
Vanessa Richardson
Is it possible that a lack of explanation or maybe a lack of answers can cause people to blame or lash out at each other?
- [11:25]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yes. There are five stages of grief. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. We don't travel through these stages linearly. We cycle through them, and there's no standard timeline. It's common for people to project blame and deflect anger during their grief journey, because blame is often a way of expressing that anger. With ambiguous grief like this, people can get stuck in those early stages, especially anger and bargaining. It's easier to be angry at someone specific than to face the helplessness of not knowing. And it's harder to reach the acceptance stage with ambiguous loss like this. Because of the lack of closure after.
- [12:04]
Vanessa Richardson
Abraham's funeral, his brothers still didn't feel a sense of closure. They both moved back to Oakland to be around the rest of their loved ones. But they also wanted answers. Asmerom suspected foul play, so he began investigating. He thought the Meharis might have known about Abraham's belief that one of Winta's brothers was gay. If that were true, maybe they silenced him to avoid public shame. Asmarom's suspicions only got worse when he learned that Winta received a payout for Abraham's $500,000 life insurance policy. As Mehram quickly began pushing Winta and her family for more information. Soon he full on accused them of having something to do with his brother's death. But he couldn't get them to admit to anything.
- [12:52]
Crime House Narrator
Meanwhile, Winta was just trying to keep her head above water now that she was a young widow left to raise her son alone, all while earning her degree. Not to mention she could barely sleep at night because she missed Abraham so much. Still, Asmaram wouldn't let up. He started digging deeper into Winta's brother. He continued to confront the family about it and even alerted church leaders, but they didn't want to be involved. So as Meram decided to take matters into his own hands, he created a fake online Persona to try to catfish Winta's brother. In November of 2006, after keeping up the correspondence for a bit, he asked the brother to meet him at a local library. Esmerim arrived first and waited. Finally, winter's brother arrived and Esmerim confronted him. He told him the truth about the dating profile and the brother was enraged. He denied being gay and even more, he was upset that Asmarim kept harassing him and his family. The brother started yelling and Asmaram yelled back, demanding answers about Abraham's death. The two men erupted into a shouting match. Eventually, a librarian kicked him out.
- [14:16]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
As Mehram's decision to create a fake profile and confront his brother in law face to face shows how fixated he has become and how his thinking appears to have drifted from reality. Grief can distort perception, especially when it's unresolved or paired with existing rigidity and thinking. Instead of processing the loss, Asmeram redirected his emotional energy toward proving a theory. And that confrontation was fueled by a confirmation bias and therefore was about validating what he already believed to be true. Doing this in such a public space also signals impaired judgment. His emotional state had overridden any concern for consequence. So at that point he wasn't operating from logic, he was operating from emotion and conviction, fueled by a need for resolution that seems to have bordered on obsession.
- [15:08]
Vanessa Richardson
Why are people willing to meet someone in person when they know very little about them?
- [15:13]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
That's going to vary by person and context, but mainly people agree to meet strangers even when they know very little about them because of a mix of trust, bias, emotional need, and perceived familiarity. When we interact with someone online through messages, sharing photos, or having shared interests, we tend to see them less as a stranger and instead we see them as a version of what we've imagined and gotten to know. So there's also also an element of social conditioning. We're wired for connection and we tend to assume others have good intentions, especially if they present as friendly, respectful or curious. So we add in the digital context to that. It makes risk feel more contained or even abstract, and caution becomes more reduced. So in this instance, though, it's different. Asmiram had a confirmation bias. He became fixated and was not entirely rooted in reality. He had a plan and he had a mission.
- [16:12]
Vanessa Richardson
By now, Asmarom was convinced the Meharis were hiding the truth about Abraham's death. He continued to harass Winta and her family, but when he wasn't getting any answers from them, he decided it was time to seek revenge instead.
- [16:33]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [16:36]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [17:04]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [17:20]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [17:23]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [17:35]
Vanessa Richardson
In March 2006, 42 year old Abraham Ghebr Selassie died suddenly and mysteriously in his sleep. His brother, 43 year old Asmeram believed that Abraham's widow, 28 year old Winta Mahari, and her family were responsible for his death. But when he couldn't prove it, he decided to find justice in a different way. Eight months after Abraham's death, families all across Oakland, California prepared to celebrate Thanksgiving. November 23, 2006. Winta's mother, 50 year old Regby Mahari, hosted Thanksgiving in her one bedroom apartment. It was a cramped space, but it was cozy with all the family present. The guests included Winta, her two year old son Isaac, and Winta's brothers, Angesom, Yeforem, Merhawi and Jonas. Notably absent from the Mehari's Thanksgiving table was any member of the Guber Selassie family. Things between the two families were now too strained for them to enjoy a holiday together. That afternoon, Rugby was busy in the kitchen when a knock at the door interrupted the festivities. Winta was surprised when she opened the door and saw Abraham's brother Tawadros standing there. Tawadros explained that he just wanted to see his nephew for the holiday. At first, Winta was suspicious. But Tawadros wasn't the one who had started all the problems in their family as Marom was. Winta was already feeling emotional about the fact that this was their first Thanksgiving with without Abraham. So she welcomed Tawadros inside.
- [19:14]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, let's talk about her decision to let Tewadros in. Like you mentioned, it's the first Thanksgiving holiday without her husband and without her husband's family. And that's hard enough. But when her late husband's brother shows up asking to see his nephew, I think she acted on her desire to restore family harmony. And that's really human, especially as a caretaker and a mother. When families fracture, people like Winta often take on the role of the emotional mediator. They value stability and connection, sometimes at their own expense. And in grief, that instinct can intensify, especially around holidays. Loss and loneliness make people long for normalcy, for something that feels familiar and good again. Inviting Tewadros in may have felt like a small act of healing, or maybe closure. At the core, it seems as if she was trying to honor the memory of her husband, preserve a sense of family for her son and create peace in a moment of grief and division.
- [20:13]
Crime House Narrator
So at first, Winta was likely glad she let Tuadros in. He sat down and played with Isaac and let the toddler play with his cell phone. Then at some point, Tuadros stood up and made a call to his brother Asmeram, without anyone else noticing. A few minutes later, at around 3pm, there was another knock at the door. Tuadro slept to his feet to answer it. There Stood Asmeram with two guns in his hands. Twadros immediately picked up Isaac and fled the apartment. Then Asmaram rushed inside and screamed at everyone not to move. One of Winter's brothers, Merhawi, managed to run into a closet and hide. But the rest of his family was not as lucky. As Maram began firing. The first bullet hit 17 year old Jonas, who fell over in his chair. Regby tried to catch him, but before she could, Asmerom shot her as well. Meanwhile, Regby's other son, Angusam jumped out of a window and fell three stories to the ground below. But Asmeram still wasn't done with his shooting spree. He fired again and this time he struck Winta down. Having watched Asmiram gun down his brother, mother and sister, Ephraim rushed Asmaram and was able to disarm him. But in the process, Asmeram shot him in the foot. Before fleeing the scene, he ran to his family's apartment, which was in the same building complex. And that's where Tewadros was holed up with their nephew Isaac, who the two brothers used to as a hostage. Soon police arrived and quickly evacuated over 200 residents from the building. Then they set up a blockade to keep the Gabrielassi brothers inside while they began hostage negotiations.
- [22:12]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Barricading with a hostage is rarely about strategy. It's almost always psychological. It typically reflects a mix of fear, desperation, and the need to reassert control. In those moments, the hostage becomes a tangible symbol of power, a way for the person to anchor themselves to something and feel in charge again. When the hostage is a child, that symbolism runs even deeper. Children represent innocence, hope and the future. The very things a person in crisis may feel that they've lost. Sometimes the act even gets twisted into something protective. The hostage taker convinces themselves sometimes that they're keeping a child safe or protecting them, when in reality they're trying to keep themselves from unraveling. And I think that's what's happening here. Isaac wasn't just a child to the brothers. He was the last living link to their brother Abraham. And psychologically, they may have felt entitled to Isaac or even responsible for him. Especially if they believed Winter's family had caused Abraham's death. In their eyes, keeping Isaac close may have felt like protecting their family's legacy, or what was left of it. In families that are highly enmeshed, children can take on enormous weight. They become the symbol for continuity, redemption and control. And if there was psychotic or delusional thinking occurring, those symbolic meanings can become distorted. So in that mental state, their actions probably felt justified to them, maybe even loving or necessary. But when in reality, they're acting from a place of fear, grief and displaced anger.
- [23:48]
Vanessa Richardson
When someone's cornered by the police like this, what are usually the best tactics to get them to listen?
- [23:55]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So before you can get them to listen to you, you have to listen to them. During a hostage negotiation like this, the hostage taker or the person cornered is usually flooded with fear and emotion. They're not thinking rationally. The goal at that point isn't persuasion, it's containment and patience. Time allows adrenaline to drop, so their reasoning can return and conversations can actually happen. Active listening and validation are key. Not because you agree with what they're doing, but because you want them to know they're being heard and understood. It's about creating psychological safety. It's lowering defenses, so communication becomes possible. This approach builds rapport. It helps identify what they actually need or fear and opens the door for empathy and problem solving. The focus is about de escalation, not debate. And no judgment blame. None of that can occur. Just calm, steady human connection. And ideally an optimal outcome for all will result from that.
- [25:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, amid all the chaos and violence, the authorities main priority was getting Isaac out safely. Because as Maroam and Tewadros wouldn't leave the apartment, the SWAT team and tactical negotiations team were called to assist. The standoff lasted two hours as the teams demanded the Gebrselassis leave the apartment. Finally, after the sun had set and people's Thanksgiving meals went cold, Asmarom and Tewadro surrendered. Isaac was safely returned to the surviving Mahari family members unharmed. Asmerom killed three people that day. 50 year old Rugby, 28 year old Winta and six 17 year old Yonas. He also injured Angesum, who fell from the third story window. And yeah, after their arrests, Asmaram and Tawadros were each charged with three counts of special circumstances murder, two counts of false imprisonment, numerous weapons charges and one count of attempted murder and kidnapping. Even though Tawadros wasn't present during the shooting, he was given these charges for not only abducting Isaac, but is acting as an accomplice. Both brothers pleaded not guilty.
- [26:15]
Crime House Narrator
Four long years went by before the Gebrselsis trial began. Asmaram hired and fired several different lawyers because he kept butting heads with them. By the time the trial began in February 2011, Asmarim was representing himself in court. At trial, the brothers weren't a united front. Tewadros argued that he had no idea his brother was going to shoot the Meharis. He also claimed he didn't call Asmaram that day, but that two year old Isaac accidentally dialed his number when he was playing with his phone. At the same time, Asmaram did admit to killing his three in laws, but he claimed he was acting in self defense. He said he only bought a gun because he thought the Meharis were after him him and that Yeferem had pulled a gun on him first. So he fired back. But there was just one problem with that story. Both guns found on the scene were registered to members of the Gebrselassie family. Without the facts on his side, Asmeram tried something else. Theatrics. When asked why he shot Winta, he fell to his knees and burst into tears. And throughout the rest of the trial, Asmeram continued to have random emotional outbursts. At one point he was even barred from the courtroom because of all of his disruptions.
- [27:42]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
This courtroom behavior is suggestive of someone who is very emotionally dysregulated and possibly struggling with a mix of guilt, paranoia, personality traits and mood instability. Whether he's conscious of it or not, these theatrics were likely an appeal for sympathy as well as a potential decompensation because he's losing control over the outcome. Which likely explains why he hired and fired so many lawyers too. They were not telling him what he wanted to hear. Their legal advice was not matching the reality he wanted. And he once again projected blame onto them rather than accepting that his thinking was still flawed. At the same time, the timing of these outbursts is telling, which is something forensic psychologists like myself pay close attention to. Specifically when his narrative began to crumble and the evidence no longer supported his story. That's when his mental stability started to fracture. And that could indicate manipulation. The courtroom isn't just a legal arena. It often becomes a stage for regaining power and validation for many offenders. So if I were assessing someone presenting this way, with the timing like this, I'd want to rule out psychotic disorders, mood disorders with psychotic features, but also personality disorders, particularly those involving paranoia, narcissism or emotional dysregulation. And of course, these can co occur, which could further complicate his presentation.
- [29:05]
Vanessa Richardson
Lazmarum eventually calmed down and finally hired a lawyer. But his behavior had been so odd, the prosecution used it against him in their closing statements. And in May of 2011, Asmaram and Tewadros were both found guilty on all charges. That August, Asmaram was sentenced to three life terms without parole and one life term with the possibility of parole plus 132 years to life. When the judge read his sentencing, Esmerom began shouting and deputies had to remove him from the courtroom. As for Tewadros, he was sentenced in October 2011 to three life terms without the possibility of parole plus one life term with the possibility of parole. But that wasn't the end of the story for him them. In 2015, a state appeals court reassessed the case. They upheld Asmeram's conviction, but Tawadros was overturned based on witness testimony from a police sergeant that the court believed painted Tawadros in an unfair light. Tawadros case was sent back to the district attorney instead of facing a retrial. He pleaded no contest to three charges of voluntary manslaughter. In August 2000, 2016, a judge re sentenced him to 10 years in prison. Since Tawadros had already served that time, he was allowed to go free. As for the Mehari family, little Isaac went to live with his uncle Merhawi, Winta's brother, who said he thanks God every day for the gift his sister left him in the form of his nephew. It's undeniably a tragic case, but in this story where there there's little to be thankful about, at least they had each other. Coming up, another story of a family torn apart, this time by a murder so grizzly it took the authorities two days to sort through the wreckage.
- [31:06]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [31:14]
Crime House Narrator
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- [31:16]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [31:28]
Crime House Narrator
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- [31:38]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [31:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [31:42]
Vanessa Richardson
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [31:48]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [31:50]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [31:55]
Vanessa Richardson
Copilot sees what you see. Let Copilot talk you through step by step guidance so you can master new apps, games and skills faster. Try now@windows.com copilot. Your favorite true crime series, 48 Hours is back for a new season, and so is the official aftershow podcast Postmortem. Every Monday, listen to a new episode of 48 Hours, and then join me 48 Hours correspondent Ann Marie Green on Tuesday for a new episode of Postmortem, where we bring you a closer look at each case. This case was eye opening on so many different levels. Follow and listen to 48 Hours on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:39]
Crime House Narrator
Joel Michael Guy Jr never really fit in with his family Family. But that didn't come from a lack of effort on their part. Born in 1988 to his parents, Joel Sr. And Lisa, Joel was embraced into a supportive household, which included three half sisters. When Joel Sr. Had married Lisa, he'd already had three daughters of his own. Growing up in Tennessee, the girls got along well with Lisa. While Joel Sr. Worked as an engineering designer, Lisa was a supportive stepmother. Mom it seemed like the family of six was happily settled. Except Joel Jr. Was always a little different. Even as a child, he was reclusive and didn't enjoy spending time with his family. Instead, he remained holed up in his bedroom.
- [33:29]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
This behavior from a psychological perspective suggests an early pattern of detachment and possibly socialization difficulties, although at least at this point, his behavior sounds more inward and avoidant rather than hostile. That kind of isolation and lack of social reciprocity can limit emotional growth. Children learn empathy, compromise, and perspective through interaction, and without those experiences, emotional maturity can stagnate, leaving someone feeling like an observer rather than a participant in their own life and in this case, his family life. Clinically, if he wanted to connect with his family and his peers but didn't know how to, that would warrant consideration for Autism Spectrum Disorder. But if he had little to to no interest in connecting with others at all family and peers, that could point to early emerging schizoid personality traits.
- [34:23]
Vanessa Richardson
Is it typical for the youngest member of a blended family to feel like they don't fit in?
- [34:28]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yes, it's actually quite common, and that's a really important point. The youngest joins a system that's already established its roles and rhythms, so even in a loving home, they can feel more like an addition than a participant. And in blended families, there's also the issue of divided loyalty. Children can unconsciously pick up on emotional boundaries between biological and step family members, which can create uncertainty around belonging. In Joel's case, that's compounded by two key factors. He's the only boy, and he's named after his father, that can unintentionally create tension with his half sisters, who may have felt some invalidation or maybe displaced feelings by that symbolic connection. So those subtle undercurrents of rivalry or resentment can build over time, and together they can easily conjure to his desire to isolate from the family.
- [35:23]
Crime House Narrator
Joel's parents thought maybe a new environment would help him when he got older. They sent him to a prestigious boarding school called the Louisiana School for Math, Science and the Arts. But this didn't seem to help Joel. Throughout high school, he never seemed to make friends. And despite his social challenges, Joel did graduate from high school in 2006. He still wanted to pursue an education and eventually enrolled at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. Joel told his family he wanted to become a plastic surgeon. However, college proved to be just as much of a struggle. From 2007 to 2015, Joel struggled academically. He completed a few courses, but he couldn't stay on track long enough to make any real headway toward a degree. At the same time, Joel had never really learned how to take care of himself. He couldn't hold down a job, and his parents paid the rent on his apartment in Baton Rouge. Lisa even went back to work to help cover her son's expenses. By 2016, when Joel was 28, he still hadn't finished college. Instead, he stayed home alone to read books and play video games.
- [36:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So Joel liked the idea of success. It sounds like he had aspirations, but he seemed to lack the discipline, frustration tolerance, and self efficacy to follow through and achieve it. This suggests a degree of learned helplessness, which is really supported by the financial and emotional enabling his parents have been doing. It comes from a place of love and support, but it's also shielding him from consequences, resilience and accountability. At the same time, there's also the possibility that Joel's avoidance or even schizoid traits made achievement harder for him. People who avoid social connection and struggle with internal motivation often withdraw into fantasy worlds where success is controlled. It's not that he didn't want to do well. It's that he lacked the emotional tools and the self concept required to tolerate any discomfort that comes with growth. And his family seemingly rescues him before he's able to learn and develop those tools.
- [37:37]
Vanessa Richardson
Schools Joel seemed to have a promising start as a student at a prestigious boarding school. So what do you think might have caused him to struggle so much in college?
- [37:46]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
For someone like Joel, the structure of a boarding school likely gave him exactly what he needed to perform. He had clear expectations, consistent oversight and authority and external motivation. Students who struggle with executive functioning, emotional regulation, or social anxiety often do well in highly regimented environments like that. But once they're responsible for managing their own own time, stress and social relationships on their own, which college requires, those deficits become much more visible. It's the difference between being directed and being self directed. There's also the psychological shift that comes with freedom. For someone already prone to withdrawal or dependency, the independence of college life can feel less liberating and more destabilizing. He simply struggled to adapt to that. It's also a critical window in terms of age and the emergence of different mental health conditions. Most people are around 18 when they enter college, and that is around the age when many psychiatric disorders, particularly schizophrenia, bipolar, certain anxiety or mood disorders tend to emerge. But also it's the age when personality disorders can be diagnosed. And those are disorders that have been gradually developing and their patterns have been enduring for some time. So this is also important to consider.
- [39:05]
Vanessa Richardson
While Joel spun his wheels at home, 61 year old Joel Sr. And 55 year old Lisa were raised ready to move on to the next phase of their lives. The couple were going to retire so they could spend more time with their six grandchildren. They even planned to sell their home, which was about 15 miles outside Knoxville, Tennessee and find something that fit better with their retirement lifestyle. They planned to be out by December of that year, which meant Thanksgiving 2016 would be the last one in this home. They also made another big decision, which was to stop supporting Joel. If they were going to move into the next phase of their lives, they thought he could use a little push into his next chapter too. But when they told their son about this, Joel was completely overwhelmed. For him, it was too much change too fast. Then as the reality set in, he became angry. He had no idea how he was going to make enough money to survive. When it became clear that his parents weren't willing to negotiate, Joel realized he needed to formulate a plan. The way he saw it, if he couldn't survive, then his parents shouldn't be able to either. Joel decided that this Thanksgiving wouldn't just be his parents last one at their house. It would be their last one ever. Coca Cola for the big. For the small, the short and the tall.
- [40:37]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Peacemakers.
- [40:38]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [41:14]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way.
- [41:19]
Vanessa Richardson
You'Re free to to discover your way. And that's what running is all about. Run your way@newbalance.com Running.
- [41:32]
Crime House Narrator
In 2016, 28 year old Joel Michael Guy Jr. Was furious about his parents decision to cut him off financially. So he formed a deadly plan. As Thanksgiving approached, he began purchasing various items and storing them in his silver honey. On November 7th of that year, Joel went to an ace hardware store in Baton Rouge, Louisiana where he purchased food grade hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid, which is an extremely corrosive substance. And then on November 18, Joel went to Home Depot and bought extension cords, large plastic bins and a bleach sprayer. But that was just the beginning of his troubling behavior. Joel also kept a notebook full of lists and reminders which included things like get killing knives, flush chunks down toilet, not garbage disposal body gives time of death and alibi. However, Joel also knew that killing his parents was just one half of the plan. Once they were dead, he also needed to make sure the flow of money he got from the them wouldn't end. So in addition to his shopping list and killing methods, Joel also wrote things down like quote, her assets, her life insurance, $500,000 and money all mine.
- [43:03]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So what we're seeing here is premeditation. His purchases, his lists, even the way he cataloged his parents assets and where it would go all show a goal directed and instrumental mindset. But from a psychological standpoint, the notebook book kind of tells an even deeper story. Writing everything down, how to kill, how to dispose of the bodies, how to cover his tracks, all shows that he's already emotionally detached from what he's planning to do. And the irony is that his attempt to be meticulous is exactly what is leaving evidence behind and tying him to the crime. But also the note taking could be related to underlying an undiagnosed personality or even developmental or neurocognitive traits. Perhaps he was a regulatory function for him or his way of remaining emotionally detached and intellectualizing his actions. Some personality disorders like schizoid, process life through logic and abstraction rather than emotion. Writing could be a way of keeping emotional distance for him. Now I already outlined his pattern of learned helplessness. And this kind of planning, goal setting and strategizing seems contradictory to that pattern, but it's actually not. When someone has developed learned helplessness over time, it can create psychological dependency. And when that that dependency is threatened, it can result in an extreme need to reclaim control. That could be what we're seeing here. When his parents decided to cut him off, it threatened his dependency and the system that had kept him comfortable. Instead of adapting by planning accordingly, which we know he struggles to do historically, he overcorrected and it transformed into hyper control, which unfortunately manifested as desperation and senseless violence.
- [44:48]
Vanessa Richardson
Whatever was driving Joel the most, after weeks of preparation, he was finally ready to execute his plan. Thanksgiving rolled around on November 24, 2016. Joel drove his silver Hyundai to his parents house in Hardin Valley, Tennessee where the whole family was gathering. That day. He seemed more engaged than he ever had been. He even played with his half sister's children, something she had never seen him do before. It was all part of his plan to make his family feel comfortable around him and to avoid suspicion. Later on that night, after everyone finished their Thanksgiving meals, the guy sisters said their goodbyes and returned to their own homes. But Joel stuck around and even stayed the night. The following day was uneventful. Then on Saturday, November 26, Joel decided it was time to send his plan in motion. His mother Lisa left in the morning to do some grocery shopping at a nearby Walmart, which left Joel alone in the house with his father, Joel Senior.
- [45:52]
Crime House Narrator
The two men didn't seem to want to spend a lot of one on one time together. So at some point, Joel Senior went upstairs to use the exercise room. Suddenly, in the middle of his workout, Joel Jr. Rushed into the room. He had a knife in his hand and began stabbing his father in the chest. Joel Sr. Fought back, but it was no use. Joel continued to stab his chest and abdomen. At some point, Joel Sr. Mustered his strength and tried to get away. But Joel lunged at him, knocking over an exercise machine in the process. He managed to pin his father down before continuing to attack him with the knife. In the end, Joel Jr. Stabbed his father a total of 42 times, causing damage to his lungs, liver and kidney. The attack was so violent, some of the stab wounds even damaged his ribs and a piece of the knife was left embedded in his shoulder. Afterward, around 12:30pm, Joel looked around around at the blood splatter around the room. He took a deep breath. Stage one of his plan was complete. Then he heard his mother return from the store. Lisa dropped her grocery bags on the floor and called out her son's name, but he ignored her. So she went upstairs to try and find him. When she got to the top, Joel attacked her the same way he did to his dad. Joel stabbed his mother 31 times on her chest and abdomen, severing a few of her ribs. After he was done, he left her body at the top of the staircase and surveyed the damage. Joel was riding a high. His plan to kill his parents was complete.
- [47:45]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
This is truly horrifying, and it speaks volumes about Joel's mental and emotional state. This would classify as overkill, which is violence that far exceeds what's necessary to cause death. It often reflects rage that's personal and emotional. Joel was punishing them for setting boundaries and threatening his dependency. There's also a symbolic layer here. His father represents authority, control, and expectation. His mother represents nurture and protection. These are all traits that Joel struggled to connect with or achieve on his own. Killing both in such an excessive and brutal way may have also represented an attempt to destroy the very sources of his shame and powerlessness. And yet, what's most chilling is how intimate this act was. Stabbing requires proximity. It forces the attacker to feel resistance, see suffering, and continue anyway. That level of closeness, repeated that many times on two different people, shows determination, both mentally and physically, as well as a lack of empathy and dehumanization. His parents weren't people to him in that moment. They were obstacles he couldn't control.
- [49:00]
Vanessa Richardson
Joel had no known history of violence before. So where do you think this came from?
- [49:05]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
It's a great question. Even in people with no prior history of violence, there's always a time before the first act, and often the warning signs are there long before anything physical happens. So in Joel's case, the violence risk marker that we've seen throughout this story include isolation, entitlement, poor emotional regulation, and lack of empathy. Those traits don't always predict violence. I want to be clear about that. But when we combine that with a major stressor, like the sudden loss of financial support or control, they can culminate into catastrophic behavior like this. So Joel, for him, the violence likely grew from a chronic buildup of resentment, dependency from learned helplessness, and emotional immaturity that never an outlet. He was completely reliant on his parents. He lacked any healthy coping skills that we know of and was unable to tolerate frustration or rejection. And when that dependency was threatened, all of that suppressed anger and entitlement had nowhere to go.
- [50:08]
Vanessa Richardson
Joel had carried out the murders as if he'd done it a million times before. Afterward, he moved on to the next task. Cleaning up the crime scene. There was blood everywhere, and he needed to dispose of all the evidence. Evidence. First, Joel removed his parents limbs from their bodies. He decapitated his mother and brought her severed head down to the kitchen. He put her head in a pot, filled it with water and set it to boil on the kitchen stove. The very same kitchen stove where she'd cooked Thanksgiving dinner just two days before. @ some point, Joel's process got interrupted when he noticed his hands had been cut and were blended bleeding. So around 3:30pm he went to Walmart to buy medical supplies to treat the wounds. Then he returned home and continued working. Joel spent the rest of the night dismembering his parents bodies. He put most of their remains in a number of 45 gallon containers which he kept in their bathroom. When he was done, he got into bed and went to sleep. The next day, on November 2027, Joel realized the gashes in his hands still weren't healing. So he drove back to Baton Rouge to try to get medical treatment from the student clinic at lsu. Before he left, he made sure the stove was still on so that his mother's head would continue boiling. Then he turned the thermostat up to 90 degrees to try to speed up the decomposition process. It seems like Joel had no plans to return to his parents house. He likely hoped that turning up the temperature would obscure the timeline of his parents deaths and maybe even make it look like someone else had done it. But despite all his planning, he didn't consider all the ways the trail could lead right back to him.
- [51:56]
Crime House Narrator
The next day, Lisa was supposed to celebrate her retirement at work. Her co workers had planned a party for her. When she didn't show up, they knew something was wrong. So they contacted the Knox County Sheriff's Department. Detectives Stephen Ballard and Jeremy McCord drove to the guy's house to check on Lisa. When no one answered the door, they peered inside. And that's when they spotted bags of groceries strewn around the foyer. The detectives could tell all the food inside was rotting. Worried, they went around to the back door and the doorknob was missing. And the officers could feel heat emanating from inside. They knew they had to get into the house quickly. Fortunately, they found a side door unlocked and they went in. Once they entered, the officers were pummeled by the smell of rotting flesh. And the officers found what Detective McCord described as the most horrific scene he had ever witnessed. First they discovered Lisa's head still boiling on the stove. Then they went upstairs and saw blood everywhere. Finally, the detectives went into the bathroom where they stumbled upon the bins full of remains. Despite Joel's efforts, the detectives could tell that the remains hadn't been there long. When the Forensics team arrived shortly after they agreed. Then, over the next couple of days, as they processed the scene, they found each other. Even more evidence left behind. To start, there were several Walmart receipts inside the house, including the one from Joel's visit to the store on the day of the murders. But when they stepped into the guest room, they found the most incriminating item. Joel's notebook, tucked inside a backpack. Investigators read through the entries, which painted a clear picture of a young man who had killed his own parents. Parents for their money. From there, detectives checked the Walmart surveillance footage and saw Joel purchasing all the items that were listed on one of the receipts. It was clear he was the culprit. And on November 28, 2016, two days after the murders, officers arrested Joel outside of his Baton Rouge apartment. He didn't put up a fight. If anything, he seemed resigned to. To his fate.
- [54:22]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So that kind of resignation could signal post defense depletion, which is highly probable given the intense emotional and physical exertion of this crime and the aftermath. But there's also the element of cognitive rigidity. People with traits like Joel's obsessive, isolated, control driven, often have very black and white thinking. His decision to kill his parents rather than seek alternative solutions to what would happen if they cut him off is an example of this. But criminally, once a plan collapses, that kind of thinking doesn't allow for them to know how to pivot from that or improvise. They just stop. It's as if that rigid internal script ends and they don't know how to move past that. So his resignation wasn't likely about accountability or moral awareness. It was the same pattern we've seen the all. Once he could no longer control the outcome, he reverted to the only role he knew, letting others take over. And for someone who with learned helplessness, this kind of outcome isn't necessarily frightening. You know, being arrested, it's familiar. I've seen this pattern in repeat offenders who've lived their lives independently like this. Incarceration can feel like an answer because it restores structure. They're provided housing, food, and basic needs, the same kind of caretaking Joel's parents had always given him. It's not freedom, but it's certain. For someone who's never learned true independence, that can feel like relief.
- [55:49]
Vanessa Richardson
Once he was in custody, Joel continued to cooperate, which baffled detectives. And while he pleaded not guilty to the two counts of first degree murder against him, he also did something strange. Joel asked for the death penalty if he were to be convicted. However, the court denied that motion. Instead, he faced literally life in prison. In the fall of 2020, Joel's trial began. It lasted just four days and Joel chose not to testify. His defense didn't present any evidence since they couldn't deny the clear case against him. Instead, they only questioned the amount of forensic testing done and pointed out that Joel had seemed happy during Thanksgiving. In the end, the jury also saw Joel for who he really wanted. On October 2, 2020, they deliberated for just three hours before finding Joel Michael Guy Jr. Guilty on both counts. He received two life sentences as well as an additional four years for charges related to the abuse of a corpse. In 2023, Joel tried to appeal his case, but he was unsuccessful. Lisa and and Joel Guy Senior were looking forward to the next chapter of their lives when their own son viciously took it all away. Joel's sisters never spoke to him again. One sister, Michelle, said that she would never forgive him. They made sure not to mention his name in the joint obituary they wrote for their parents. By trying to take all of his parents money, all Joel did was destroy his family, not to mention his own life. In the end, he erased himself from their family altogether. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the movie mind of another murderer.
- [57:57]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Killer Minds is a Crime House original Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media rimehouse and don't forget to rate, review and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and.
- [58:17]
Crime House Narrator
To enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content.
- [58:34]
Vanessa Richardson
Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels with special guest Carter Roy and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertofsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Sarah Tardiff and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. Looking for your next Crime House listen? Don't miss Crimes of with Sabrina, Deanna Roga and Corinne versus Crimes of is a weekly series that explores a new theme each season from Crimes of the Paranormal, unsolved murders, mysterious disappearances and more. Their first season is Crimes of Infamy, the true stories behind Hollywood's most iconic horror villains. And coming up next is Crimes of Paranormal Real Life Cases where the line between the living and dead gets seriously blurry. Listen to Crimes of every Tuesday on Apple Podcast Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.