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- [00:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Crime House has the perfect new show for spooky season Twisted Tales. Hosted by Heidi Wong, each episode of Twisted Tales is perfect for late night scares and daytime frights, revealing the disturbing real life events that inspired the world's most terrifying blockbusters and the ones too twisted to make it to screen. Twisted Tales is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes out every Monday.
- [00:41]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
This is Crime House.
- [00:46]
Vanessa Richardson
Some people don't just dream big. They believe they can change the world. They chase bold ideas, push boundaries and test the limits of what's possible. Usually this kind of ambition requires a little vision and a whole lot of grit. And sometimes it's the product of delusion. Which was definitely the case with Danish inventor Peter Madsen. Peter was a self taught engineer who poured everything he had into building rockets and submarines. On the surface, he seemed like a bona fide success story. But in the summer of 2017, the world realized that Peter wasn't a brilliant scientist. He was a crazed lunatic. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [02:01]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And I'm Dr. Tristan Ingalls. Every Monday and Thursday we uncover the darkest minds in history. Analyzing what makes a killer Crime House.
- [02:09]
Vanessa Richardson
Is made possible by you. Please rate, review and follow Killer Minds to enhance your listening experience with ad free early access to each two part series and bonus content. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Before we get started, be advised. This episode contains descriptions of sexual violence and dismemberment. Listener discretion is advised. Today we begin our plunge into the mind of Peter Madsen. Peter convinced everyone in Denmark he was a genius ready to change the world. But in 2017, he proved that he was nothing more than a madman and that all he was really capable of was depravity and violence.
- [02:54]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some killers lose their capacity for typical emotional reactions at a young age, what it might mean when someone says sexuality is not just over the top, but connected to dark thoughts, and how an unchecked need for power and control can launch someone like that off the deep end.
- [03:14]
Vanessa Richardson
And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Everyone is telling her she dreamt it. But in the woman in cabin 10 Lo Blacklock is determined to uncover the truth in the gripping new thriller coming to Netflix October 10th. Keira Knightley plays a journalist aboard a luxury yacht who witnesses a crime she can't unsee. Adapted from Ruth Ware's best selling novel, directed by Simon Stone. Watch the woman in cabin 10 now only on Netflix. Well, I was down on my last dollar Then I started saving cause the bank said fiscal restraint is what you're.
- [03:57]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Craving so I put my earnings in.
- [03:58]
Vanessa Richardson
A high yield account Let the savings compound and the interest moun of months in cash flow putting debt in check. Now time is my friend and not a pain in the neck and we've.
- [04:08]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Got a little cash to rebuild the old deck. Boring money moves make kind of lame.
- [04:13]
Vanessa Richardson
Songs but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet. Brilliantly boring since 1865. For most of his childhood, Peter Madsen was vulnerable and powerless. He was born in Denmark on January 12, 1971 to a mother named Annie and his father Carl. From the day Peter was born, the dynamic of Annie and Carl's marriage created a major sense of insecurity. Annie was in her mid-30s, deeply religious and had three older sons from previous relationships. Carl was 36 years older than her and he also had serious anger issues. One of the main outlets for his anger was his three stepsons. Even though they all lived together, Carl didn't view the three older boys as his family. So when his rage took over, he directed it all at them. He was extremely abusive and beat them regularly. Peter, however, was spared. Since he was Carl's only biological son, he wasn't treated as badly. Instead, he spent his days watching his brothers suffer.
- [05:25]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
When a child grows up witnessing violence at home, even if they're not the direct target, it's still traumatic. And we call this vicarious trauma. It's the emotional, physical and cognitive impact of being exposed to violence, especially in a place that's supposed to feel safe, like your own home. And in this case, although Peter was being spared physically, this was certainly psychologically abusive. Some children in a situation like Peter's can go on to develop survivor's guilt. And in certain cases, if the abusive parent idealizes the child who spared that child may begin to see themselves as special, chosen or above the rules. And this can create a foundation for entitlement or narcissistic traits down the line. At the same time, being exposed to family violence without any protection or intervention. Intervention can interfere with the development of empathy. Now, in most cases, children do become hypersensitive to others pain if they are experiencing something like Peter. But others can learn to shut those feelings off, especially if those feelings become overwhelming. They can then start to compartmentalize and even stop reacting to anything altogether. And when that pattern sets in early and it isn't corrected, it can evolve into emotional detachment. And we also have to remember that abusive behavior is learned. That kind of environment can teach children like Peter that violence is how to gain power and fear equals control. Now, of course, again, not every child who witnesses or experiences abuse Becomes violent or detached or any of those things. In fact, most don't. But they are all impacted and the harm just manifests in different ways. Sometimes it's through anxiety or guilt, Other times it's through control seeking behaviors or difficulty forming healthy emotional attachments. So in a forensic psychology perspective, we're not just looking at what happened to someone, we're looking at at what they witnessed, how they interpreted it, and what adaptations they made to survive. And in Peter's case, understanding that early dynamic offers important context and can help us understand how it may have contributed to who he would later become.
- [07:29]
Vanessa Richardson
Peter's three brothers were actually also his mom's biological children. How do you think Carl's abuse might have shaped the way Peter thought men were supposed to treat women?
- [07:39]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
I'm really glad you asked this, because even though there's no evidence that we know of that Carl physically harmed Peter's mother, that doesn't mean she wasn't a victim of the violence in a similar way that Peter was. In many families affected by domestic abuse, the non abusive parent, in this case it would be Peter's mother, Is navigating a situation that's far more complex and dangerous than it may appear from the outside. She might feel powerless to intervene Due to the risk of escalation or financial dependence, Social isolation, or just concern for her own children's safety. They're already at risk. So in these situations, staying silent or appearing passive Is sometimes a survival strategy on its own. It's not necessarily a sign of weakness or indifference. It takes planning, it takes resources, and it takes opportunity to leave an abusive environment safely, Especially when children are involved. For a child like Peter, though, witnessing this dynamic, Seeing a mother who is present and loving, but unable to stop the abuse can lead to the internalization of some damaging beliefs. Like, for example, a belief that women lack authority and over time, that could distort how he views intimacy or gender roles and power overall. And if the abusive parent is someone that he fears or even admires, A child can then begin to associate control with competence. That modeling can shape their sense of masculinity, and it can teach that dominance is strength and relationships Are something that you control or manage rather than nurture.
- [09:09]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, in 1977, when Peter was just six years old, Annie got fed up with Carl's abuse and she left him, taking her older sons with her. She wanted to take Peter, but he chose to stay with Carl. It seems like his father was the devil he knew. Or maybe Carl was a master manipulator who scared Peter out of making his own decisions. After all, Peter had learned how to keep his head down and avoid getting on his father's bad side, which meant he couldn't speak freely or be himself in his own home. And pretty soon, Carl unleashed psychological hell on his son. Shortly after Annie left, Carl caught wind that she was seeing another man. This set off a series of explosive outbursts that Peter had to witness. On top of that, he told Peter that if he ever so much as visited his mother, he wouldn't be welcome back home.
- [10:04]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So Carl's reaction here was likely teaching Peter that women who assert autonomy or reject male control Deserve punishment of some kind, which ultimately contributes to Peter's view of women. He's forcing Peter to choose loyalty through compliance, not love, which unfortunately reinforces controlling or dominating beliefs.
- [10:24]
Vanessa Richardson
Absolutely. And Peter was not only alienated from his mother, but he was completely voiceless, not to mention afraid of losing the only place he ever called home. However, as Peter got older, he managed to find common ground with his father. Carl had been a young adult during World War II. He'd grown up in Europe At a time when rocket science was rapidly advancing and when figures like the controversial Nazi aerospace engineer Wernher von Braun were making big waves. Carl had always been fascinated with these kinds of technological advancements. He was especially interested in what's known as propulsion systems, which is when a machine uses thrust to push an object forward. And in 1979, when Peter was 8 years old, Carl passed that enthusiasm onto him. Peter was instantly obsessed. It wasn't just the technology that captivated him, but the thought that these machines could launch someone into space or bring them to the bottom of the oce. Someone like him. At that young age, Peter decided he wanted to dedicate his life to building rockets and submarines. After that, he spent all his time studying, which meant by the time he entered middle school, he was kind of a loner. He basically had no friends. And it wasn't just because he was a bookworm. His interests had become too troubling. While other boys his age played sports and learned how to talk to girls, Peter experimented with gunpowder and explosives. Suffice to say, no one wanted to hang out with him. Those years were tough, Especially because when Peter thought he'd finally found his people, they didn't like him either. As a teenager, he joined a local club for amateur rocket enthusiasts. At first, the group seemed like a perfect fit for him, but soon he started pushing boundaries that made them wary of him. For example, he once suggested they experiment with a dangerous form of rocket fuel. We don't know the details about the exact type of fuel it was, but we know that Peter's idea was scary enough to get him kicked out of the group.
- [12:35]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So research consistently shows that children who are chronically rejected by their peers Often experience higher rates of anxiety, depression, loneliness, and low self esteem. They're also at a greater risk for aggressive behavior and difficulties with emotional regulation. And of course, that doesn't mean they will all struggle with that. But children need to feel like they belong, and they need to feel valued. And the combination of early family dysfunction and peer rejection Is especially concerning because it can further disrupt the development of empathy and healthy identity formation. Instead of learning cooperation, trust, and social reciprocity, A child might retreat into isolation, resentment, or even grandiose fantasies where control and domination become substitutes for connection. Also, it's important to point out that peer rejection doesn't impact every child the same way. Some kids have protective factors like supportive teachers, mentors, or extended family members that help buffer those effects. But Peter lacked a stable emotional base at home. And when you combine that with the rejection from peers, that can increase his sense of alienation, Adding to an already developing framework regarding relationships and power.
- [13:45]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think that Peter's childhood and the way he was brought up Taught him antisocial tendencies? I mean, he's really doing some dangerous things here. It seems like he's trying to get attention or maybe rebelling.
- [13:55]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, it's absolutely possible. When a child grows up in a household where violence is actually modeled the way it was in Peter's home, Rules tend to be inconsistent or even distorted, and emotional needs aren't reliably met. So they begin to internalize some maladaptive lessons. Like, for example, that the normal rules of society don't apply to them. Those are all hallmark pathways into animals Antisocial patterns of thinking and behaving. Now, again, does that mean his childhood caused him to become antisocial? Not necessarily. It's important to remember that no single factor explains behavior this complex. But like I mentioned, violence and abuse are learned, and they're often cyclical. And those early experiences can create traits like emotional detachment, Disregard for authority, and risk Seeking. And when we look at Peter's interest in carrying out dangerous experiments, there are a few possible psychological functions to explain that. On one hand, risky behavior can be a form of attention seeking. He wants to stand out. He wants to be admired for daring to do what others wouldn't. Especially if he admires his father or equates similar behavior like that with admiration. On the other hand, it can be a form of rebellion, rejecting societal limits in favor of a self made set of rules. For someone with antisocial tendencies, those experiments might not just be about discovery or innovation. They could also serve as a way to reinforce a grandiose self image, one that sets him apart from everyone else. And that mindset can blur the line between creativity and destructiveness, especially if empathy and accountability were never fully developed. So it could be a combination of these things. But when we consider his early childhood experiences and the possible internalized messages that came from that, it becomes really concerning.
- [15:39]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, getting kicked out of the club didn't stop Peter from honing his talents. If anything, it made him want to prove himself even more. When he was 15, at 18 years old, his chemistry and physics teachers helped him build and launch his first large rocket. It shot 330ft into the air. For Peter, it was a total thrill. And it was also a huge achievement, which led to him being offered a spot in a prestigious STEM school that stands for science, Technology, engineering and Mathematics. He now had a ton of opportunities, like going on a class trip to a brand new planetarium in Copenhagen. It was an experience Peter would never forget. For a kid who always felt like an outsider, looking up at the stars gave him a grand sense of possibility. Peter wasn't just inspired by the idea of going to space. He was obsessed. From that point on, everything else in life came second. Even when life threw him a major curveball. In 1990, when Peter was just 19 years old, his father died. And while most people would feel grief, or at least shock, Peter didn't seem to care. He attended the funeral and after that went right back to working on his rockets.
- [16:57]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Peter's reaction to his father's death actually makes sense when you consider the environment he was raised in and with the potential environmental risks I've already highlighted, specifically with regard to emotional detachment. Now, emotional detachment is a defense mechanism. Some people shut down their feelings to protect themselves from discomfort or anxiety, anxiety or fear. Over time, that detachment can become part of their personality, making it harder to access or express grief in the way that we might expect. Another possibility is that Peter had internalized Anger or resentment toward his father. When a parent is abusive, some children carry an unspoken hope for change or repair. If that never comes and then the parent passes, what's left isn't always sadness. It can be numbness. It can be indifference or even relief. In some cases, it's a complicated and ambiguous form of grief. From a clinical perspective, what Peter's coldness could also suggest is emotional blunting, which is not the same as emotional detachment. Emotional detachment, like I said, is a defense mechanism, whereas emotional blunting is a reduced capacity to feel or express empathy. Even in situations that normally elicit emotion like this. That doesn't mean he felt nothing at all, but he may have been unable to connect with those emotions. And in forensic psychology, when we see this kind of pattern, we tend to question how that person and relates to others. If the death of a parent is met with indifference, and not simply because of relational history or similar reasons like abuse, but particularly when that reaction fits a broader life history, it can sometimes point to a pattern where relationships are viewed as transactional, where feelings are minimized and control matters more than genuine connection. And over time, that relational style can contribute to difficulties in empathy and intimacy. And in some cases, it can set the stage for more serious problems. And again, people grieve differently, differently for different reasons. And it's not always a cause for concern regarding their risk of future violence. But this is killer minds, and this is a specific case.
- [19:00]
Vanessa Richardson
Although Peter didn't seem to be bothered by his father's death, it seems like all the isolation and loneliness had started to eat away at him. We don't know where he lived after his father died, or whether anyone stepped in to help him figure out life as a young man. But we do know that instead of going out and meeting new people, Peter found other ways to pass the time. He started regularly watching pornography. And he quickly became obsessed. With no friends and no romantic prospects, all Peter had was the Internet. But eventually that wasn't enough. So Peter found the courage to go out and meet new people. However, he still couldn't seem to fit into normal social environment environments. For someone like Peter, who likely had poor self esteem and didn't know how to navigate the real world, he was more comfortable putting on an act than being himself. So he started going to sex clubs and attending fetish parties. In those settings, Peter could hide his real personality behind his sexuality. And he loved it. Over the course of a few years, he became a familiar face face in those circles. But that meant he started getting tired of seeing the same people or Maybe they got tired of seeing him. Either way, he started joining websites for people looking for casual sexual encounters. And that's when Peter took things to a whole new level. He put his true desires on display. By the time he was in his early 30s, Peter posted online about BDSM, them, strangulation and violent role play. But that wasn't all. He also expressed interest in making his own pornographic torture films and described his love of, quote, murder porn.
- [20:47]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
That's interesting because sexual fetishes, behaviors and fantasies don't usually begin that late in adulthood. They tend to emerge in early adolescence or young adulthood. So that makes it more likely that Peter had these fantasies fantasies for quite some time. And what we're seeing now is him leaning into them more openly rather than developing them suddenly.
- [21:05]
Vanessa Richardson
At this age, unsurprisingly, most people didn't share his enthusiasm. But Peter wasn't going to give up. If others wouldn't engage with his twisted fantasies, then he would find ways to lure them into it.
- [21:23]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [21:25]
Vanessa Richardson
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [21:31]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [21:36]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [21:40]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [21:50]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
That's why you rack. When did making plans get this complicated?
- [21:59]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [22:04]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [22:15]
Vanessa Richardson
It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com By 2002, Peter Madsen was a regular player in Copenhagen's underground sex scene. He also harbored violent fetishes that he continually tried to act on. But he didn't seem to have much luck finding partners who were interested in the same things at the same time. The 31 year old rocket enthusiast was still trying to live out his dream of becoming an engineer. Even though he never went to college and didn't have a steady full time job. Despite his lack of education or experience. He tried to convince investors that his big ideas would were worth buying into. But if he wanted to secure real cash, Peter would Have to prove he could actually deliver. At some point, he realized that people were more interested in submarines than rockets. So he shifted focus. That year, Peter built his first homemade submersible and named it Freya, the Norse goddess of love, beauty, war and death. Among other things, it was the first amateur built submarine in all of Denmark. Powered by a simple electric motor, it wasn't flashy, but it worked for Peter. It was all he needed because the media took notice of his accomplishment, and soon his name circulated in science and business circles. But Freya wasn't just an investment hook. She was a conversation starter with women. At one point, Peter met a sex worker he liked and invited her on board for a dive. He later told friends that the woman had touched a certain part of the submersible, and from that moment on, he had a, quote, special relationship with that spot.
- [24:05]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
There is something known as object sexuality or objectophilia, where someone experiences ongoing romantic or sexual attraction to inanimate objects, sometimes even forming what they see as a relationship with them. But I don't necessarily think that's the case here with Peter, because firstly, we don't see a pattern here that we know of. So then we. What is this about? From my perspective, it comes down to control, identity invalidation. By assigning a special relationship to a spot on the submarine, he was doing more than reminiscing. He was anchoring a sexual experience to something he created that allowed him to merge his sexuality with his professional identity, reinforcing the idea that both were sources of power, desire and uniqueness. It also gave him a sense of ownership. Instead of the encounter being just a fleeting moment with another person, he stamped it into the environment, almost immortalizing it. And he was using his submarine to attract women. So it makes sense why he would want to emphasize that even more. And that's a way of holding on to control, because objects don't leave, they don't challenge you, and they can't reject you. And finally, it reflects his need to elevate experiences into something bigger than they really were by turning a private moment into a symbolic feature of his submarine. He wasn't just remembering, though, he was mythologizing.
- [25:23]
Vanessa Richardson
And.
- [25:23]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And that's very consistent with what we've seen of Peter. He's someone who constantly needed to inflate ordinary experiences into proof of how extraordinary that he believed himself to be.
- [25:35]
Vanessa Richardson
What are your thoughts about the way he used his career achievements to bolster his sex life?
- [25:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Inviting women onto a submarine wasn't just about sharing an interest. It gave him control over the Setting the narrative and often the thrill of doing something risky or exclusive. That dynamic can make the encounter feel more exciting, but it also tilts the power balance heavily in his favor. Clinically, what this suggests is that Peter may have been using career achievements as an extension of his sexuality. He's merging his success with intimacy and identity. And that can be a warning sign from a forensic perspective, because it reinforces a pattern where people and even sex become objects in service of his ego, his need for control rather than mutual human connection.
- [26:22]
Vanessa Richardson
Peter had found a way to make both his dreams come true. He was becoming a respected engineer and had a way to lure women into his presence. But he didn't just bring people onto the submersible. Not long after he finished building Freya, he also successfully launched it. After that, he became a bit of a local celebrity. Some people even started calling him the Danish Elon Musk. Peter lapped this up. He loved being admired, but more importantly, he loved the influx of investor cash and the influx of sexual partners. One of his go to places to meet people was a performance collective called the Kinky Salon, which was known for its experimental sex parties and open atmosphere.
- [27:08]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Based on what you described, it seems that Peter treated sex less as intimacy and more as performance. Psychologically, this suggests a few things. First, it speaks to a need for validation through that performance. If you always have to wear a costume or play a character or stage a scene, it may be because you don't feel safe or possibly don't even know how to be authentic. And this has been a pattern of his that you've already really outlined for us. It would fit with a pattern also of emotional detachment. And second, it highlights Peter's mingling of sexuality and power. From a forensic lens, this is what we call instrumental sexuality. He's using sex less as mutual bonding and more as a tool to regulate his self esteem and to gain dominance or even admiration. And it also could suggest that Peter's sense of self was fragmented, which I think we can see is actually really happening. He has never simply been Peter. And by constantly playing roles, this may have shielded him from vulnerability, at least in his mind. But in doing so, he's also stripping intimacy of reciprocity entirely.
- [28:16]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think it's possible that Peter has a fetish disorder?
- [28:19]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
That's a great question. I've actually been thinking about that as you've taken us through the story, because he certainly has an openness to experimenting, given his patterns of engaging in fetish activities. But the reality is many adults engage in fetish behaviors or they have specific interests. And that by itself isn't a disorder. In fact, it can be a normal variation of human sexuality when it's consensual and it's not harmful, and someone with a diagnosable fetish disorder has clinically significant distress related to their fetish and the fetish interferes with their life and their relationships, or it causes some kind of personal suffering. And so far, there's no evidence that Peter was in distress about it or that it impaired his functioning. If anything, it seems he integrated it into his social and sexual life. But if he had sexual fantasies that are violent and hidden from others, that would be more concerning given what we already know of. Especially if they are acted upon without consent.
- [29:19]
Vanessa Richardson
Despite Peter's seemingly open sexuality, he continued to keep his most violent fantasies a secret. But the more successful he became, the more they started to show. After Freya's success, Peter set his sights even higher with a second submarine he called Kraka. It was an enormous project that required over 3,600 hours of build time. But Peter made it happen. Kraka was powered by a diesel electric engine and was one of only three of its kind in the entire world that was owned by private citizens. It was yet another success to add to his growing list. Missed. Both Kraka and Freya likely held another record as well. Being the only submarines ever loaned out for the filming of a pornographic movie, Peter provided both of them to the producers of an adult film. And his rule breaking attitude didn't just win him headlines. By the late aughts, Peter had started to gain real influence. At 37, he'd become something of an anti establishment figure. In Denmark, he started a blog where he spoke out against traditional bureaucratic systems, mocked government red tape, and painted himself as a brilliant outsider doing what big organizations couldn't. Peter's attitude made him so popular that when he launched a crowdfunding campaign for his next endeavor, he raised over US$200,000. With that money, he set out to build build a bigger, better submarine called the Nautilus. Peter's hope was that one day the Nautilus would tow his very own rockets out to sea so that he could launch them from international waters where there were fewer rules and regulations. On May 3, 2008, after three years of building, Peter finally launched the Nautilus on its maiden voyage. And it was another huge, huge win. It operated perfectly. Now that he had the sub of his dreams, Peter wanted something bigger to bring the rest of his vision to life. That same month, he co founded a company called Copenhagen Suborbitals alongside his friend, a Danish architect named Christian von Bingston. Together they laid out their plan to build and launch Denmark's first privately built space rocket. And after they launched the company's web website, their vision quickly gained traction. Almost overnight, nearly 50 people reached out. Some of them wanted to volunteer, while others offered sponsorship or other donations. Peter was over the moon, and his personal life was thriving, too. When Peter turned 40, he married his first wife. She worked in the local film industry and had spent time volunteering for his company. She'd also agreed to an open relationship, which was perfect for Peter, who wanted to keep attending sex parties and pursue his various kinks. But soon enough, though, Peter realized he had no time for sexual conquests. He was working all the time, and the stress was starting to get to him. His temper at work became volatile. One minute he was charming and energized, but the next next, he'd spiral into rage. Volunteers said that if something didn't go his way, he would have childlike tantrums and even throw screwdrivers or hammers across the room. Peter's temper wasn't the only thing that made his workers uncomfortable. He also had a disturbing sense of humor. He often made jokes about being a Nazi or said he was going to inject battery acid into people's veins. For the most part part, people laughed it off, or at least they tried to. Peter was an HR nightmare, but luckily for him, suborbitals didn't have that department.
- [33:10]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So it sounds like you're describing possible mood liability, which is the rapid shift between moods, like high energy, enthusiasm, and then irritability or anger. And this can be associated with a few different things. Sometimes it's linked to personality traits, especially in people who struggle with emotional regulation. Other times, it can be tied to stress, overwork, or underlying mental health conditions. Conditions. Often it's immediately stigmatized as bipolar disorder when that's not necessarily the case. When we're trying to understand this kind of mood shift or behavior, we have to evaluate context and environmental triggers. Stress can have profound effects on physical and emotional health. And what stands out here is how the imbalance between his career demands and his sexual expression seemed to create stress intolerance that fueled that instability. And if we recall, it's possible and even likely that Peter blurred the line between his sexual. Sexual identity and his professional identity. His inventions and his image as this daring engineer became part of how he attracted attention and admiration as well as intimacy. In other words, work was tied to his sense of sexual and personal validation. And now his work was demanding more from him and offering less in return. In his eyes and without experiences that fed his sense of admiration and desirability, it would make sense that he would have these disproportionate outbursts like this. And broadly speaking, since I certainly can't diagnose him, I've never met him. When someone is described as fun but also volatile, particularly like this, and the volatility is possibly related to stress or impatience or even unmet needs for validation, it often points to underlying issues with self regulation, entitlement, impulse control, and in some cases a lack of empathy.
- [34:59]
Vanessa Richardson
Regardless of his problematic behavior, Peter's hard working nature did eventually allow him to bring suborbitals to new heights. Because soon the company was building rockets like he'd always dreamed of. But this still wasn't good enough for Peter. Even though they pulled off a few rocket launches, he had his sights set on something bigger. Peter wanted to be inside a capsule when it breached Earth's atmosphere. Most people at the company thought that was a long way off, but Peter insisted they were ready. However, by 2014, he and his co founder Christian soon butted heads over for this. Christian had safety concerns and he thought Peter was being reckless. He didn't want to run that kind of company. Plus he started to feel like Peter's anger issues were too unmanageable. Meanwhile, Peter couldn't understand why Christian wanted to go home to his family each night. He thought everyone should work around the clock like he did. Even though Peter was also married, he didn't care at all about spending time with his wife life. Christian started to lose a lot of respect for Peter's way of life and eventually Christian stepped away from the company entirely. This was the last straw for the rest of the team. Most of them blamed Peter for Christian's departure and felt he'd sabotaged their entire mission. In their eyes, Peter's inability to collaborate showed he wasn't working toward the common goal they all thought they shared. That tension hit a breaking point and In June of 2014, Peter was pushed out of his own company.
- [36:35]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Peter's ongoing behavioral dysregulation at work is actually really telling. Like we talked about. If his identity was tightly fused with his work, then criticism of the project likely felt like criticism of him. The control piece is equally telling. When a person struggles with insecurity or has narcissistic traits, being in charge provides a sense of safety. If Peter dictated every detail, then he didn't have to tolerate uncertainty or compromise. Or even the possibility that others might outperform or outshine him. And that kind of control isn't about collaboration. It's about protecting his ego. His anger toward Christian for prioritizing family is also really telling. Peter seemed to interpret it not as a healthy boundary, but as a weakness, potentially, or even a betrayal. And that tells us that for Peter, relationships weren't about mutual respect. They were transactional. People were valuable only as long as they supported his vision or his or even his end game. So when you put it together, the defensiveness that he has and his need for control point to deeper dynamics. It's a fragile self image, an inability to handle vulnerability, and a reliance on dominance to maintain his superiority.
- [37:46]
Vanessa Richardson
What are the risks of someone like this, like Peter, being rejected by people who he thinks are supposed to follow and admire him?
- [37:53]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
In these situations, we often see a few possible outcomes or risks. Some people respond with rage by lashing out, blaming others or escalating risky behavior to prove their worth. Others turn it inward into shame and depression or withdrawal. Because if admiration disappears, so does their sense of value. And in more extreme cases, rejection can fuel vindictiveness or destructive behavior, especially if the person interprets it as a betrayal. But what is common, though, is poor self regulation. If self worth is entirely dependent on how others respond, then rejection feels catastrophic to them. And that's concerning because it can drive impulsive decisions, divisions, interpersonal conflict, or even aggressiveness aimed at regaining control or restoring a damaged ego.
- [38:43]
Vanessa Richardson
Peter had built Suborbitals from the ground up. Now it was moving on without him. But he didn't let it keep him down for long. Just weeks after leaving Suborbitals, Peter launched a new company with pretty much the exact same mission. He secured funding from a Norwegian millionaire and named his new company Company Rocket Madsen Space Lab. Even though Peter had a reputation for being difficult to work with, many people were still drawn to his vision and wanted to work for him. Just like at Suborbitals, he quickly pulled together a team of interns and volunteers who wanted to be part of something groundbreaking. Peter's new setup was gritty, industrial, and exactly the kind of blank canvas that he liked. He set up shop in a warehouse house that was right across the shipyard from Copenhagen. Suborbitals. Every day, Peter could look out and see his old company moving on without him. That constant reminder lit a fire in him. With the launch of his new project, he wasn't just back to building rockets and sailing the Nautilus. He was locked into his own personal space race. Peter needed to make atmospheric entry before suborbitals did he have had to prove to the world that he was the one worth following. So he spent every waking hour in his warehouse. Soon his obsessive nature started to bleed into his personal life too. Sex parties and fetish porn were no longer enough to satiate him. Peter needed real danger to keep him feeling alive and in control. And since he couldn't find it, then he'd make it happen.
- [40:29]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
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- [41:43]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
The murders of Claudia Maupin and Chip Northup left their town of Davis, California paralyzed in fear. The victims were an elderly couple. It was up close and personal. Even more chilling, the prime suspect was a teenager. He's I think the word is psychotic. From 48 hours binge the full series 15 inside the Daniel Marsh Murders now on the free Automatic the app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:15]
Vanessa Richardson
In 2017, if you asked 46 year old Peter Madsen how things were going at his company, Rocket Madsen Space Labs, he would have said his team was making steady progress toward their first manned rocket launch. But in reality, Peter was three years into the new venture and he was no closer to his goal than when he started started. He still had his submarine named the Nautilus, which he continued to parade around as a huge success. It was what helped Peter carry a sort of mythos around Denmark. He was seen as a boundary pusher and bold thinker, and people found themselves continuously drawn to his confidence, ambition and intensity.
- [42:55]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Let's talk about the effects when someone keeps receiving validation and praise even after their actual achievements have leveled off, like this case. For one, constant praise can reinforce grandiosity in someone like Peter. If people keep celebrating or validating someone in the absence of new achievements like this, it can create the illusion that they're untouchable, above criticism, and entitled to admiration regardless of what they do or don't do. And if we recall from Peter's childhood, that illusion may have started with his father, sparing him from abuse, creating a core belief that he was special, that he was chosen, or in some ways superior. Secondly, it can create a dependence on external validation. If admiration keeps coming in like this, it can teach someone that what matters isn't the work itself or what you're producing, it's the attention that it brings. And that can lead someone to engage in more stunts or risky behaviors or public theatrics to maintain the spotlight. And finally, this kind of praise can actually increase volatility, because like we already talked about, if your sense of self is inflated by constant validation, then any hint of criticism or rejection or disinterest becomes all the more threatening. So in Peter's case, all of that ongoing celebration may have created grandiosity. It made him reliant, possibly on admiration. And ultimately he's become more sensitive to even minor rejections. And when that goes unchecked, that can become really dangerous in individuals like him.
- [44:27]
Vanessa Richardson
How is it possible for someone to go so long believing they're so special without actually achieving what they promised, promised, or even set out to do?
- [44:35]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Some individuals can develop grandiose self concepts. They truly do believe that they are destined for greatness or are superior. And that belief can then become self sustaining. And social validation plays a huge role in that because it can create a feedback loop that strengthens that self concept. And after a while, let's say in Peter's case, that becomes more important than anything he could or would create. And psychologically, there's often an avoidance of vulnerability there too. Admitting any kind of failure would mean confronting insecurity or self doubt and even shame. And for someone who relies on admiration to feel valuable, especially when they have narcissistic traits, that's intolerable. So that avoidance strengthens the belief or that self concept, it's self protective and it's definitely a self serving distortion.
- [45:26]
Vanessa Richardson
Of the many people fascinated by Peter, one was a 30 year old Swedish journalist named Kim Wall. Kim grew up in Denmark. And In March of 2017, she was visiting her boyfriend, a man named Old Stobe, in Copenhagen. The couple were on a walk in the shipyard where Suborbital and Madsen Labs were located. When she noticed Peter's submarine. She was instantly curious. Kim had spent her career as a reporter traveling all over the world, often covering strange stories about rebellion and alternative movements. And when Kim learned more about who Peter Madsen was, she realized she'd stumbled onto her next big story. She reached out to both Copenhagen Suborbitals and Madsen Labs, hoping to interview each side of the so called Danish space race. Suborbitals responded to her request, but Peter didn't. Maybe Peter didn't respond to Kim because he was busy with working. Or maybe he was preoccupied with something else entirely. Something much darker. Lately, Peter had become even more engrossed in violent sexual fantasies. Some days he spent hours looking up disturbing things like torture methods, executions and dismemberment. But looking at these things online wasn't enough for Peter. He needed others around him to know about the dark corners where his mind lurked. So he started leaving his searches up on his computer at work for his employees to see. Including grotesque, violent pornography. It was deeply unsettling. But when Peter's employees inevitably caught a glimpse of what he was looking at, no one said anything. They didn't want to cause problems, so instead they looked the other way.
- [47:16]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
His employees being afraid to say anything because they didn't want to cause problems is just really showing us how volatile he must have been at work and what they expected in return. And so he's had an established pattern of behavior there that his employees had been exposed to. And this particularly is a disregard for social norms and boundaries. But also he's limit testing and he's signaling that his interests or fantasies took priority over anyone else's comfort or concern. Consent. And that can be an assertion of dominance. Instead of keeping those violent fantasies private, where they should have been, he put them into a shared space, almost as a way of normalizing them or even daring others to challenge him, knowing that they wouldn't. That allows him to stay in a sense of power. And in some ways, this also wasn't about sex. It was about control, intimidation, and forcing his environment to reinforce his identity. It also highlights how his need for control was tied to both sexuality and spectacle. Leaving violent pornography out wasn't just about personal gratification. It was about making others aware of his power to shock and unsettle or push boundaries. And that's a very different mindset from private interests. It's an outward display, and it's designed to dominate the psychological space of the people around him. And that is suggestive of sadistic traits, particularly if he got some kind of psychological gratification from their discomfort, which I'm suspecting was likely the case.
- [48:44]
Vanessa Richardson
What causes the link between sex and violence in some people?
- [48:48]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
That's a very complex question, and it certainly doesn't develop in everyone. But for some people, it starts with early exposure, whether to trauma, pornography, or environments where power and control were modeled as part of relationships. The brain begins to wire arousal not to intimacy, but to domination or aggression itself. And over time, that pairing can crystallize. So eventually, sex, sex without power or violence feels less stimulating. There's also an additional psychological piece as well. For individuals with traits like entitlement, poor empathy, or antisocial tendencies, sex can become less about connection and more about the control. And violence amplifies that sense of control. It ensures that one person is dominant and the other is submissive. And in that framework, sexual gratification is inseparable from the experience of power. And to be clear, I'm speaking about when this happens in a non, because there are instances where, you know, dominant and submissive dynamics are at play in a consenting relationship. And that's entirely different.
- [49:57]
Vanessa Richardson
The workplace wasn't the only area of Peter Madsen's life where he tried to create shock value. He did it to his own friends, too.
- [50:10]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [50:37]
Vanessa Richardson
In August of 2017, one of Peter's former employees, who he had also briefly dated, texted him for help with a video art project she was trying to finish. She needed motivation and asked Peter to send her something threatening to get her to do her work. She was expecting playful banter, but Peter took it to an extreme. He said he would cut her jugular with a utility knife. Then he went on to describe how he wanted to tie her up and impale her on a roasting spit as the conversation went on. Peter told the woman he had a murder plan ready to go, one that he would carry out aboard his submarine. A few minutes later she replied, saying that this wasn't scary enough and asked him to threaten her more. So Peter described the tools he would use to kill her. After that, he switched gears and suggested they could lure someone else on board the submarine and kill and dismember them together.
- [51:38]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So let's talk about a little bit more the difference between a consensual fantasy and an actual violent mindset. Especially when it comes to a conversation like this between past partners. Many people have fantasies that involve power dynamics, like I mentioned, role play, you know, between submissive and dominant or even aggression. But when they're consensual, they remain in the realm of imagination or mutual agreement. And that's very, very different from a truly violent mindset where the goal isn't mutual pleasure and trust, but instead is about dominance, harm or humiliation. So in consensual fantasy, boundaries are respected and the other person's autonomy matters. There is a very strong foundation of trust there. And to some degree that mutual agreement actually appears to be occurring here because she is asking him to do this and asking for more even after he expressed violent thought. So on the surface, this suggests that they may have had a history of role play or mutual interests. Now, when it comes to violent jokes, we have to be careful not to over pathologize either. People sometimes make dark or off color jokes without ever meaning to act on them. But when someone repeatedly makes violent jokes, especially ones that line up with their fantasies or future actions that can be psychologically meaningful, humor can become a socially acceptable mask for something darker. It lets the person test reactions, desensitize others, or even rehearse their own comfort with the idea in a less vulnerable way. And Peter has been testing reactions for some time now. Now in fact, research and case studies in forensic psychology show that some violent offenders actually foreshadow their crimes like this. They might make offhand comments or dark jokes or disturbing statements about violence long before they act. Why? Because it serves a psychological purpose. Sometimes it's a form of boasting or like I said, limit testing. And for some plen, planting seeds of their darker self in front of others without being stopped is part of the thrill. So the difference comes down to intention and pattern. A one off dark joke doesn't mean someone is violent. But leaving violent pornography out when you know that is not a pro social thing to do, that, that's not even actually a legal thing to do in most places, or when the violent humor becomes a repeated theme and it aligns with internal fantasies, or it's tied to a need for control that's usually not just about a joke anymore, that can be a warning sign.
- [54:09]
Vanessa Richardson
Peter came up with these scenarios for his former employee so quickly and seemed naturally. What does it say about his mind?
- [54:17]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, I think there's two things here. I think it's highly likely that the nature of his relationship with this employee when they were intimate was built on sexual kinks that did involve power dynamics. But I also think that it's an indication he may have been fantasizing about this for some time. And remember how I said it was a little alarming that in his 30s, suddenly this was something he was interested in? That's atypical. Typically those things really start to show themselves in adolescence around puberty. And if we think back to his pattern, when he invited a sex worker on a submarine and fixated on the spot that she touched and how he seemed to equate sexuality with his career, thoughts like these likely had been brewing for some time and he's just now starting to bring them to the surface little by little. A form of escalation. He started testing this at his other company and it's evolved into this point.
- [55:10]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, at the time, this woman didn't think much of it. It was all just a part of the strange fantasy dynamic the two had built. But pretty soon, Peter proved that it wasn't just an act out of nowhere. On August 10, 2017, Peter finally responded to journalist Kim Wall. More than five months had passed since she'd first reached out. But now Peter said he was finally available for an interview that same night. He had reached her just in time because Kim and her boyfriend were getting ready for an upcoming move to Beijing the following week. In fact, the day Peter responded to Kim was the same day as her going away party. For Kim, it felt like the perfect opportunity to squeeze in one last assignment before leaving the the continent. So she and Peter made a plan to meet at his warehouse at 7pm that evening. That way she could still make it back to her party on time. Kim's partner, on the other hand, was hesitant old, didn't love the idea of Kim going alone and offered to join her. But Kim reassured him that she had been in much more dangerous situations than this. So as the sun set over the harbor, Kim sent out to meet Peter Madsen. She thought she was about to explore the mind of a brilliant inventor. But really, she was walking into the clutches of a psychopath. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our deep dive on Peter Madsen.
- [56:56]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Powered by Pave Studios Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram Rimehouse and don't forget to rate, review and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and.
- [57:16]
Vanessa Richardson
To enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting Crime House bonus content. Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Original Powered by Pave Studios this episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzovsky, Sarah Camp, Kate Murdoch, Markie Lee, Sarah Batchelor, Sarah Tardif and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. Limu Emu and Doug Here we have.
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera.
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
Excludes Massachusetts Twisted Tales with Heidi Wong is perfect for spooky season. Dive into the real events behind the world's most terrifying blockbusters and beyond. Twisted Tales is a Crime House original. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes out every Monday.