← Serial Killers & Murderous Minds
Serial Killers & Murderous Minds
MURDEROUS MINDS: The Mysterious Romanov Family Assassination Pt. 2
00:51:54
Loading summary
Transcript49 lines
- [00:03]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi, Crime House community, It's Vanessa Richardson. Exciting news. Conspiracy theories, cults and crimes is leveling up. Starting the week of January 12th, you'll be getting two episodes every week. Wednesdays we unravel the conspiracy or the cult, and on Fridays we look at a corresponding crime. Every week has a theme. Tech, bioterror, power, paranoia, you name it. Follow conspiracy theories, cults and crimes now on your podcast app because you're about to dive deeper, get weirder and go darker than ever before.
- [00:47]
Carter Roy
This is Crime House.
- [00:52]
Vanessa Richardson
Everyone loves a good story with whether we're in need of a good laugh or some cathartic tears. Stories help us understand and connect with the world around us. But they also help us make sense of the unthinkable. In the wake of the disappearance of Russia's Romanov Royal family in 1918, people all over the world came up with stories to explain what happened. And the more time passed without any real answers, the the more those stories became legend. However, the truth about the Romanovs couldn't stay buried forever. And when the real story came to light, it was more haunting than many had imagined. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, A Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [02:03]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.
- [02:13]
Vanessa Richardson
Crime House is made possible by you. Follow serial killers and murderous minds and subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts for ad Free early access to each two part series. Before we get started, be advised. This episode contains descriptions of murder. Today we conclude our deep dive into the 1918 murder of the Romanov family, the last members of the long standing Russian monarchy. Amidst the violence of the Russian revolution, the former royals were held hostage and brutally killed, sparking one of the most infamous murder mysteries in history. While the truth has finally been revealed about what happened to the Romanovs, the answers force us to look within and ask ourselves what we're all really capable of.
- [03:01]
Dr. Tristan Engels
As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how people respond when there's a clear lack of answers after a traumatizing event, how violent and sensationalized stories take hold, and the measures people go to to keep stories alive.
- [03:16]
Vanessa Richardson
And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? Mornings in my house are total chaos. Between getting my son ready for school, breakfast made and myself looking halfway presentable, who even has time to think about their wardrobe. That's why I love Daily Look. Daily look is the number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women and it makes getting dressed stress free and actually fun. Here's how it works. You get your own personal stylist, not an algorithm who curates up to 12 premium pieces based on your body, style and lifestyle. They're delivered right to your door. You try them on in the comfort of your home, keep what you love and send back the rest free shipping both ways. Boxes come every 30, 60 or 90 days so it fits your schedule perfectly. I love how their stylists really get to know you. They know what works for your work days, weekend errands and even last minute nights out. It saves time, effort and energy. Basically, it's your morning chaos solution. Take your style quiz@dailylook.com and use code serial S E R I A L to get 50% off your first styling fee a year from today.
- [04:34]
Dr. Tristan Engels
What would your dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims.
- [04:39]
Vanessa Richardson
Or only working with clients who value your skill set?
- [04:42]
Dr. Tristan Engels
What if you had more time for yourself? ALMA empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed by an all in one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation and day to day practice operations. Your dream practice is closer than you think. Learn more about Alma@helloalma.com get started.
- [05:06]
Vanessa Richardson
In the early morning hours of July 17, 1918, Bolshevik commander Yakov Yurovsky led the Romanov family into the basement of the Ipatiev House in the Ural Mountains. The former Russian royals had been held captive for about a year at that point. So when Yurovsky told the family as well as their staff members who had accompanied them from Alexander palace to pack their bags, they didn't know whether they were being moved to another location or if they were marching to their deaths. Pretty soon the horrifying reality became clear. Yurovsky brought 10 Bolshevik guards into the room who pulled out their revolvers and began flying firing. Tsar Nicholas II was killed first, followed quickly by his wife Zarina Alexandra. He was 50 years old at the time and she was 46. Nicholas's abdication from the throne over a year earlier had marked the end of an era. Now he and Alexandra's death struck horror in the hearts of their five children, 22 year old Olga, 21 year old Tatiana, 19 year old Maria, 17 year old Anastasia and 13 year old Alexei. Chaos ensued. The children and their staff screamed and ducked for cover. Pretty soon the smoke filled room fell silent except for the Sound of plaster falling from the bullet riddled walls. The guards stepped outside to gasp for air, and after a few moments, they heard pained moans from inside. Then they heard screams. The guards stepped back into the room and realized all five Romanov children and their four staff members were in agony. No one had been shot cleanly. The guards had prioritized killing Nicholas and Alexandra first, but after that, they couldn't see through all the smoke their own guns produced. Some of these guards had been hesitant to kill the children, especially the girls, but Yovski said they had to. And while these men were militant revolutionaries, they didn't know how to carry out a merciful execution. They had been completely unprepared, and now they were looking straight at the consequences of their violence.
- [07:23]
Dr. Tristan Engels
This is truly horrific. But their reactions in this moment represent a combination of panic, shock and terror. They were now faced with watching the suffering of the children they grew fond of. That challenges their own morals and ethics in the face of the mission they're driven by. And in a moment like this, many would have experienced an acute stress response to that. You kind of see it in the retreat from the room and the gasping for air and the hesitation to go back inside. And certainly the gunfire and an enclosed room will contribute to their difficulty breathing and their need to step out. But that's partly also a response from the nervous system trying to escape an intolerable situation as well. And because they were untrained, they lacked both technical skill and emotional containment. And that combination creates the chaos that's happening here. This is something they are going to have to live with for the rest of their lives. And the weight of that reality always settles in after the fact that so.
- [08:19]
Vanessa Richardson
These guards had promised their leaders that they would kill the entire family. But how could these internal reactions affect how they decide what to do next?
- [08:27]
Dr. Tristan Engels
What often happens next in situations like this is forced completion. Once the line has been crossed, stopping can feel more dangerous than continuing. So admitting hesitation would mean acknowledging doubt, weakness, or betrayal. And all things like that carry real consequences in that environment, not just to their leaders, but amongst each other, too. There's also cycle psychological momentum, which sounds like such a calloused way of describing this, but it's true. When violence doesn't go as planned, people may escalate rather than pause, because slowing down would require fully confronting the suffering they've caused, not to mention the sunk cost fallacy. And continuing becomes a way to end the chaos, soothe their own anxiety in the moment, right now, from hearing the terror and the cries and the screams and the agony and the fear that they're experiencing right now.
- [09:21]
Vanessa Richardson
With few bullets left, the guards had no idea how to finish what they'd started. To make matters worse, some of them had consumed alcohol before the killing started. So between their panic and drunkenness, they were at a loss. Until finally someone said they should use their bayonets. Acting quickly, the guards rushed their victims and stabbed them repeatedly, trying to get it over with quickly. However, the guards were so disoriented, they still couldn't manage to kill anyone cleanly. Some of them dropped their bayonets and used the butts of their guns to beat their victims to death. Nearly 20 minutes went by as the family was brutally maimed and tortured, and the Romanov girls suffered the worst of it. The guards ineffectiveness wasn't entirely to blame. Part of the reason they couldn't fatally wound any of the girls was that the royal daughters had sewn jewels into the inside of their clothes, which blunted their blows. The guards were exhausted by the time most of their victims were finally dead. However, some of the children were still clinging to life, despite how badly they'd been stabbed. Finally, the guards used the last of their bullets to put them out of their misery. When it was all said and done, the room was covered in gunpowder, bullet holes and blood. Some of the guards stepped outside again and vomited. They could barely believe what they'd just done. It was a completely inhumane slaughter, and if anyone learned the truth, it would be a stain on Russian history forever. The operation had been far more gruesome than they had planned. For the Bolsheviks entire goal was to eliminate the monarchy so their regime could take power. But if people ever learned the truth about what happened, they'd lose everything. So Yurovsky told his men to gather themselves and prepare to hide the bodies. First, Yurovsky methodically checked each body to confirm they were all dead. Then he told the men to grab the corpses and haul them through the basement and into the truck in the courtyard. Once the truck was loaded, they made their way into the Koptiyaki forest, where they planned to dump all the bodies into a mine shaft. However, the truck was so weighed down with the weight of the bodies, what was only a nine mile drive took hours because the truck kept getting stuck in the mud. And that was just the beginning of their troubles. Because when they finally got to their destination, they realized what they'd thought was a mineshaft was actually just a hole about 8ft deep. The night had been so chaotic and exhausting already, so they tried Fitting all the bodies inside anyway. But first they stripped the family of all their clothes. That's when the guards discovered the jewels sewn into Alexandra and the girl's garments. And it's believed they pocketed the riches for themselves.
- [12:15]
Dr. Tristan Engels
That would be a very revealing psychological contradiction. Like stealing the jewels of slain royalty, when their entire case was essentially at the core about wealth inequality. But simply because they committed violence in the name of ideology doesn't mean they're suddenly immune to basic human drives like fear, scarcity or self interest. The theft was likely justified psychologically as compens, sensation, survival or even spoils of victory rather than being viewed as stealing. And we also have to factor in acute stress responses without minimizing the severity of their actions. High stress traumatic events often trigger self protective thinking. Grabbing valuables can function as an unconscious attempt to reclaim control after participating in something overwhelming. So while it was hypocrisy, it was also more than that. It was a combination of rationalization, emotional reaction and the human tendency to justify personal Once moral boundaries have already been crossed, and like I always say, once a moral boundary line has been crossed, crossing the next can become much easier to do.
- [13:23]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think it was more likely that these guards never cared about others and only cared about their own personal gain? Or do you think they tossed their morals to the side when they were presented with the opportunity? Or maybe it's something else.
- [13:35]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think it's probably neither extreme, especially since we are basing it off the information we have here. And that information shows a lot of confliction and hesitation leading up to moment. It's unlikely that they've never cared about others. And it's also too simple to say they suddenly abandoned all morals in one moment. What I think is more consistent with psychology is just moral shift under pressure. I think it's a complex mix of their ideology, but pressure externally and from each other in the moment. An authority that demanded obedience, fear or fear of punishment and opportunity.
- [14:11]
Vanessa Richardson
Their hypocrisy was made worse by their complete lack of respect for the dead. Not only had they failed to secure a proper burial, but when the bodies wouldn't all fit inside the hole. Yourofsky was worried that local peasants would find them. So he told his men to put all the bodies back inside the truck and they'd come back the following day to try to find another spot. Things only got worse though. The next day they planned to drive further into the forest so no one would see them. But the truck still kept getting stuck, so they only made it about 10 miles in, just a mile further than before. At that point, Yourofsky was sick of all the back and forth. So he told his men to get out, dig shallow graves where they stood, and leave the bodies there. Before covering the graves, the men poured quicklime over the bodies to conceal the smell, and when they were done, they covered the fresh graves with wooden planks. However, Yurovsky thought that if the bodies were all buried in the same spot, they'd be easier to identify if anyone found them later. So he and his men brought two of the children's bodies a little further, then burned them before leaving their charred remains in another set of shallow graves. In the end, the whole process was far from the stealth mission Yurovsky had envisioned. On top of all that, they now had to return to the Ipatiev house to scrub the basement of all the evidence of what had happened there. Once that was done, the Bolsheviks sent a telegram to Moscow, where Vladimir Lenin had taken power. They said that only Tsar Nicholas had been executed and that the rest of the Romanov family was in a safe location. Of course, Lenin knew the full truth, but this was the narrative the Bolsheviks had agreed on. Lenin feared the international outrage that would be caused by the murder of women and children. He and his party didn't want retaliation. So this remained the official story for years.
- [16:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
This is actually a rather familiar tactic even to this day. This is calibrated truth. Leaders often release just enough information to appear transparent, but withholding the parts that could trigger moral outrage. Psychologically, this works because people want transparency, but at varying tolerance levels. A single targeted act of violence can be rationalized as necessary to the public. But widespread or indiscriminate violence, especially against civilians or children, overwhelms that tolerance and affects the support of the public. So the narrative is shaped to stay below the threshold level of outrage and to maintain public control. Misinformation like this is about emotional management.
- [16:52]
Vanessa Richardson
How does telling some truth, but not the full truth, make someone seem more credible?
- [16:58]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Because a partial truth feels honest. When someone admits some wrongdoing, the brain registers transparency and lowers its defenses. And just a little bit, it signals something like, you know, at least they're not hiding everything. That perception builds trust, even when the most damaging details are clearly missing. They're less likely to fill in the blanks too, with fear based beliefs like corruption or conspiracy. But if part of the story checks out, most people, and certainly not all people, but most people assume the rest probably checks out too. Our minds prefer coherence over contradiction, especially during crisis. So select truce can reassure the majority of people.
- [17:43]
Vanessa Richardson
For the next two weeks, the story circulated around Russia. During that time. Around July 25, 1918, the anti Bolshevik White army marched into Yekaterinburg with plans to rescue the Romanovs. By now they'd heard that Nicholas was dead, but they believed the rest of the family was still alive. Despite the rumors they'd been moved, the Whites thought they may still be at the Ipatiev house. They marched there and tore down the fence the Bolsheviks had put up. And that's when they realized they were too late. There was no sign of the family anywhere. Soon the Whites realized something catastrophic had happened. Little did they know the clues they were about to uncover were only the tip of the iceberg.
- [18:38]
National Debt Relief Advertiser
Do you have $10,000 or more in credit card debt? Maybe you're even barely getting by by making minimum payments. With credit card debt hitting record highs, National Debt Relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up. These options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify. You don't need to declare bankruptcy, and you may be able to pay back less than you owe, regardless of your credit. National Debt Relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than 550,000 consumers. So don't wait. If you owe 10, 20, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, you can now take advantage of this financial debt relief as the cost of living increases. To find out how much you could save, Visit National Debt Relief.com that's NationalDebtRelief.com.
- [19:25]
Vanessa Richardson
Rover makes it easy to book pet care whenever you need it. Connect with loving pet sitters in the Rover app today. Book your first stay on Rover.com or download the app today. Rover, Loving pet care and your neighborhood. Around July 25, 1918, the White army arrived at Yekaterinburg. To their shock and dismay, the Romanovs were no longer inside the Ipatiev house. The soldiers went inside and carefully made their way through the house. In the upstairs bedrooms, some of the family's belongings were left scattered. And in the basement, the Whites found what was left over of the mayhem. The room had clearly been scrubbed down, but bullet holes were still visible and some of the plaster was completely blasted through. Then when the soldiers stepped back out of the room, they realized not everything had been scrubbed clean because there was a thin trail of blood leading down the hallway. Clearly something something violent had happened here, maybe even something deadly. And it was far worse than one simple execution. The leaders of the White army knew they had to get to the Bottom of this. Alexandra and her children could be out there somewhere. They immediately secured the property as a way to preserve the scene. Then, as word spread around town that the Romanovs were missing, someone came forward claiming he knew what happened. One of their own officers had been hiding in Yekaterinburg to keep an eye on the Bolsheviks. He'd been watching the city from a secret location inside the Koptiaki Forest where the Bolsheviks had disposed of the Romanovs bodies. The officer didn't know what exactly he'd witnessed, but he told the others he'd seen suspicious activity in the early morning hours of July 17. He'd heard the sound of a truck engine, which was odd, considering how muddy it had been at the time. He also heard voices and what sounded like digging. He couldn't be sure, but he believed the Bolsheviks had been hiding evidence. The Whites led a group of peasants to that area of the forest, following the officer's lead. There, the searchers found an alarming sight. Scraps of charred clothing and scorched leather on the ground. They sifted through the items, and soon someone spotted something that looked like metal. He picked it up, dusted it off, and his stomach dropped. It was a belt buckle with the Romanov double headed Eagle. The group was shocked to see the imperial coat of arms left in this state. Not only that, but the belt buckle was proof that the Bolsheviks had done something to the family. However, the Whites still didn't know what exactly. For all they knew, the Bolsheviks had simply burned and disposed of Nicholas's belongings. But there were no signs of what might have become of Alexandra and the kids. The Whites needed to find answers fast. They rushed back into town where they spoke with some of the local peasants. People said that on the night in question, the roads had been blocked off and there was smoke rising from the forest early in the morning. They also said they heard a truck engine going in and out of the forest at that time. No matter how hard the Whites continued to search, though they couldn't find any more clues in the forest or inside the house. And once the locals realized that the Whites didn't know what happened, rumors swirled. Without official answers, people made up stories of their own. One of the most popular versions of events was that all of the Romanovs had died except one. People believed the youngest girl, Anastasia, had been spared and brought to an undisclosed location. Not all the stories were as hopeful, though. Throughout the world, newspapers published salacious accounts about horrible things the guards had done to the girls and Alexandra. While none of those claims were substantiated Some outlets reported that the family had been stabbed relentlessly with bayonets, which was true, of course. No members of the public had any way of knowing fact from fiction. But one thing was clear. Most people believed that the Bolsheviks were lying about what happened and that the truth was far more grim. One person who was especially affected by the rumors was Nicholas first cousin, King George V of England. King George had rescinded his offer for the Romanovs to seek refuge in London after Nicholas stepped down. And each time he heard a new rumor, he blamed himself for what happened to Nicholas and his family.
- [24:04]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Let's talk about rumors again, particularly at a time like this. We struggle with the unknown as a species because uncertainty leaves our nervous system unsettled. Especially again, like with content like this, when there's no clear ending, our brains keep searching for resolution. Our mind will fill in the g. Some people gravitate toward hopeful narratives, like the belief that Anastasia escaped because hope restores a sense of order for them. As long as survival is possible, their own fear and their own sense of safety can be regulated to some degree. Others move in the opposite direction. For them, imagining the worst can actually feel more controllable than not knowing at all. A terrible certainty can feel psychologically easier than ambiguity, and hope feels more dangerous than the certainty of a final outcome, even if it is negative. Negative rumors tend to thrive here because they serve an emotional function. They serve emotional regulation.
- [25:03]
Vanessa Richardson
Why is it that certain kinds of stories often spread faster than actual verified facts? What is it about violence and sensational details that makes them so viral?
- [25:13]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Stories spread based on emotional impact. The brain always prioritizes survival, and information that involves violence, threat, or betrayal activates the nervous system. Sensational details trigger fear, outrage, or alarm, all of which are emotions that push people to act and to share. Verified facts, by contrast, are often slower, less dramatic, and don't activate the same sense of urgency. So while facts inform stories, move people into action, often this is where true crime fits in, especially for women. Women are disproportionately targeted by certain types of violence, and many women engage with true crime content out of vigilance. It becomes a way to learn patterns and red flags and survival strategies. So in that sense, consuming sensational true crime stories is less about entertainment and more about control. In a world that can feel unsafe, shout out to all of our women listeners. But of course, we love our male listeners, too. Violent or sensational stories go viral because they help people anticipate danger, make sense of shocking behavior, and feel prepared in some small way.
- [26:19]
Vanessa Richardson
One group that seemed to recognize the power of rumors was none other than the White Army. After they failed to free the Romanovs, they needed a way to garner support. So while the Bolsheviks were fighting to regain control of Yekaterinburg, the Whites worked hard to promote the theory that Vladimir Lenin's foot soldiers had massacred the Royal family. In February 1919, about seven months after the Romanovsky were killed, the Whites still had control over Yekaterinburg, and they brought in a former federal investigator and loyal monarchist, Nikolai Sokolov, to help investigate. Sokolov asked townspeople about what the Bolsheviks had been up to the year before, not just on the night of the presumed murders, but the entire time they held the Romanovs captive there. Now that the Bolsheviks had lost their hold of the town, people felt more comfortable speaking to the Whites and sharing the full details of what they'd seen. And apparently, there wasn't just suspicious activity in the Kaptoyaki Forest on July 17th and 18th. In fact, the Bolsheviks had regularly killed their enemies and disposed of their bodies there. This posed a challenge to Sokolov, who realized that even if he did find human remains, he couldn't be sure who they belonged to. Remember, this was long before forensic DNA technology was available. But Sokolov still had to see what he could find. So some of the witnesses led him into the part of the forest where the White army officer had seen suspicious activity. There he made a groundbreaking discovery. About 10 miles into the forest, Sokolov stumbled upon what seemed to be a mine shaft. He climbed down into it and discovered scraps of clothing and some small jewels which could have only belonged to royalty. But that wasn't all. He also found bone fragments which appeared human. Sokolov was floored. Based on everything he saw, he formed a correct theory that the entire Romanov family and their servants had been killed in the basement of the house, and then their bodies were burned and buried in the forest. He knew it would be hard to convince people, though, since he'd only found partial remains. So for days he kept digging for from morning till night. However, Sokolov's work had to come to an abrupt stop, because a few Months later, in July 1919, the Bolsheviks regained control on Yekaterinburg. Sokolov quickly stored everything he had in boxes and fled. He returned to Europe, where he shared his findings with a trusted few. Sokolov had to be discreet now that the Bolsheviks were successfully forming the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, many monarchists and other European royals had become too afraid to spe out against the Soviets. So there was nothing more Sokolov could do.
- [29:11]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Nikolai's shift here reflects a move into survival mode. He understood that he no longer had the resources, protection or manpower to pursue justice in that moment. But fear doesn't erase his desire for justice. It just forces it into suppression. The cost of telling the truth had become too high. And that creates really a lot of internal conflict, like guilt, complicated grief, a sense of defeat and helplessness. Knowing what happened, knowing you're right, and being unable to act on it is a very heavy burden. It's not apathy or cowardice. It's just a psychological toll of living in a reality where the truth itself is dangerous. And the trauma of carrying that in silence and of holding evidence that could change history, but being powerless to use it is a burden, I think, far heavier than the fear alone. It's a weight that likely will never disappear.
- [30:05]
Vanessa Richardson
For Nicolas, Are there any other examples of this phenomenon that you're able to share? I know sometimes you can't share things, but maybe there's a victim or witness from a well known case that you've known?
- [30:15]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Oh, yeah. I can think of many instances where someone has evidence and is seeking justice but gets scared into silence. And the first ones that come to mind that are very well known are Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein, R. Kelly. Even in these cases, the pattern mirrors what we see here with Nikolai. There's an initial push for justice, followed by a realization that the individual that is seeking justice can't safely pursue it at that moment in time. And trying to do that might ruin or end them in some way. And silence becomes a form of self preservation in those instances.
- [30:49]
Vanessa Richardson
Even though Sokolov didn't broadcast his findings, the Soviets caught wind of what he'd done. He escaped Soviet Russia, reportedly hid his box of evidence in a church in Belgium, then sought refuge in France. There he continued interviewing witnesses who had also managed to escape. Unfortunately, Nikolai Sokolov died from natural causes in 1924 before he could ever publish his findings. Even though Sokolov had been forced into silence, there was someone else in Europe who kept the Romanov story alive in a major way. It all started in February 1920, almost two years after the Romanovs vanished, when a young woman in Berlin jumped off a bridge Bridge in an apparent attempt to take her own life. She landed in the canal below and fortunately she survived. Police officers got her out of the canal and took her to a mental health institution. But when she got there, she wouldn't tell anyone her name. In fact, she barely spoke at all for the next Six months. When the woman did finally start talking to people, she still kept her name private. However, people noticed that while she spoke German, she had a Russian accent. Staff members and other patients also noticed the woman. Woman had scars all over her body. People wondered what kind of trauma she must have endured. And one woman, another patient named Clara, thought she knew the answer. Clara believed the mysterious woman was one of the Romanov daughters. Like everyone else in the world, Clara had heard the rumors that one of the girls had survived. In addition to the woman's Russian accent, Clara believed the woman's skull scars were from the stab wounds she'd sustained in the basement before being rescued. She was so convinced of her theory that when she was released from the facility, she tracked down some high ranking Russian expats and told them about it. Even though most people believed Anastasia was the one who'd survived, Clara believed the woman was actually Tatiana, the second oldest Romanov child. And pretty soon, former aristocrats and Russian royal guards came to see the woman in the hospital to see if it was true. People showed her photographs they had of some of the Romanov's relatives and asked her if she recognized them. And asked her other questions that only a true Romanov would know the answers to. Some of these people had known the Romanov children when they were young and were genuinely hoping to reconnect with Tatiana. However, others were likely aware that Nicholas and Alexandra had left behind sizable inheritances and thought if they took the woman in, they might get a cut of the money.
- [33:28]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think what's happening here is meaning making people are seeking resolution. For some, belief offered hope. Like I outlined earlier, that kind of hope regulates fear and grief. For others, the belief served identity and purpose. And particularly in the case of Clara, because the idea of discovering a surviving Romanov, protecting her and advocating for her can give her a role in history. It allows her to participate in something meaningful. There's also trauma projection possibly at play here, too. The woman's silence, her accent and the scars invited interpretation. And remember, when facts are scarce, the mind likes to fill gaps with narratives that fit existing emotional needs. So in this case, the Romanov story was already alive in the collective imagination. I mean, it's only two years old at this point, and people have been waiting for answers or a resolution. So making this woman into a surviving Romanoff meant they finally had one. A resolution which. Which was more palatable for them in.
- [34:31]
Vanessa Richardson
Terms of the people who were doing it for money. What's your take on someone who's not only willing to capitalize on a horrific tragedy but go so far as to disturb a sick patient.
- [34:42]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yeah, this tells us a lot, truly. I mean, for starters, these individuals were viewing a woman who had just survived a mental health crisis and was still in the process of stabilizing. As a means to an end. They likely justified their behavior by telling themselves that they were just asking questions or that the truth would come out eventually anyway. And that kind of rationalization makes it easier to cross ethical lines while still seeing themselves as innocent or decent or having good intentions. But at its core, this behavior is entitled and it's exploitative. It goes beyond simple greed. It's what happens when self interest overrides someone's empathy and when someone convinces themselves that another person's trauma is an acceptable price for their own personal gain.
- [35:29]
Vanessa Richardson
Few of the people who visited the woman got any answers. Usually she became upset when people showed her photographs or recalled certain memories. Sometimes she even hid under the covers to avoid talking to them. There was one person who got something out of her, though, and that was a former guard to Nicholas's mother. The man had visited a few times and showed the woman photographs of his former charge, even though the woman didn't respond to his questions. One day after he left, she said to her nurses, quote, that gentleman has a photo of my grandmother. The nurses were completely stunned. News that one of the Romanovs might still be alive quickly spread. But soon people realized just how much more was left to uncover.
- [36:21]
Carter Roy
ForeignHouse Community I'm Carter Roy, the host of Murder True Crime Stories. If you listen to True Crime because you want more than just what happened, this show is for you. On Murder True Crime Stories, we take deep dives into history's most notorious murders. But we don't stop at the crime scene. We look beyond the headlines to understand the real story and the people who were impacted the most. Because these cases aren't just mysteries. They're lives. Families, communities that were changed forever. Whether a case is solved or unsolved, my goal is for you to walk away understanding why these stories still matter and why they deserve to be told with care. Each episode explores the darkest corners of the of true crime while keeping the focus where it belongs, on the human cost. If you're already part of the crime house community, True Crime Stories is a natural. Next listen. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday beginning January 16th. New episodes will also drop every Friday. Follow Murder True Crime Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.
- [37:45]
Vanessa Richardson
In 1920, two years after the Romanovs mysteriously disappeared, a woman in a mental institution in Berlin, finally claimed that she was one of the family's daughters. Someone else had sparked a rumor that she was Tatiana, though the woman hadn't confirmed the rumors until she saw a picture of Nicholas's mom and claimed it was her grandmother. When word got around about what she'd said, someone new eventually came to visit her. Tatiana Romanov's former lady in waiting. She took one look at the woman and said she was, quote, too short to be Tatiana. The woman responded, I never said I was Tatiana. When Nicholas's mother's former guard heard about this, he interpreted the woman's statement to mean that she wasn't Tatiana, but she was one of the Romanov daughters. He went back to the hospital with a new plan. Instead of asking her questions or showing her pictures, he wrote down all the Romanov daughters names. He passed her the pen and paper, and she crossed out every single name except one. Anastasia. With that, the story became an international sensation. Some people believed that the rumors were true and Anastasia had really survived. However, others thought the woman was just an imposter Foster trying to wedge her way into elite circles. There were even living Romanov relatives on each side of the argument. When the woman was released from the hospital in 1922, she openly identified as Anastasia Romanov. A pair of wealthy Russian expats took her in, and for years afterward, she bounced between elite families, sometimes even staying in castles or attending lavish parties. At the same time, though, some of the Romanov's relatives took issue with the woman's claims, and they raised the matter in court to try and make sure she could never get any of the royal family's money. They had plenty of reason to be skeptical, especially because between 1918 and 1928, over half a dozen women had come forward claiming to be one of the Romanov daughters, but had been exposed as imposters.
- [39:53]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It's actually not really surprising that there were so many imposters, given the response that followed. To those who came forward claiming that identity offered instant meaning, protection and belonging. And for some, especially those coming from trauma, poverty, displacement, or even anonymity, that would be incredibly appealing because it brings attention, housing, advocacy and access. To elite circles and culturally, the Romanov family represented unfinished tragedy. So the public wanted a survivor, and stepping into that role could instantly provide purpose and identity. There are many reasons someone might pose as a surviving Romanov without fully stopping to consider how harmful that is, not just to the people personally connected to the family, but to an entire community that had been holding onto hope for so long.
- [40:40]
Vanessa Richardson
This woman in Berlin had clearly been suffering from severe mental health challenges. Do you think she was somehow convinced that maybe she really was Anastasia?
- [40:49]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think it's absolutely possible. When someone's already experiencing significant mental health challenges, repeated external reinforcement can shape belief over time. In her case, nearly every interaction she had revolved around one question, are you a Romanov? And when she responded in ways that aligned with that identity, she was rewarded with attention, with care, with validation, and eventually housing and protection. That kind of reinforcement is powerful, especially for someone who may have been traumatized, dissociated, or struggling with identity or reality testing. And over time, a story doesn't have to start as a deliberate lie. I don't think it even did on her part. She wasn't asserting that she was a Romanov. Somebody asserted for her. And it doesn't have to start that way to become internalized as truth. So this may have been a belief that slowly solidified because everyone around her kept treating it as real or wanted it to be real. So it's hard to say for sure, but again, it's certainly possible.
- [41:52]
Vanessa Richardson
While some were eager to convince others that one of the Romanovs lived, others wanted to shut down those claims. In 1927, a German newspaper published a story that the woman in Berlin who had started going by the name Anna Anderson was actually a factory worker from Poland named Franziska Szankowska. That report was likely a big reason why, in the end, the courts decided Anna wouldn't receive any of the Romanov fortune. Anna's story mostly died after that, and in 1968, she moved to the United States with her new husband. However, this wouldn't be the last the world heard of her, because decades later, someone would discover yet another reason to believe one of the Romanov daughters had lived. In 1979, during the later years of the Soviet Union, a pair of Yakov locals embarked on a secret, unauthorized dig in the Koptiaki Forest. Alexander Avdonin, a geologist, and Geli Rabov, a filmmaker, had been researching and investigating the fate of the Romanovs for pretty much their whole lives. Over the years, the two of them had made some breakthrough discoveries. One was the diary of Yakov Yurovsky, who wrote a detailed account of the night the Romanovs disappeared. The guard explained that the entire family and their staff had, in fact, been brutally murdered in the basement of the Ipatiev house and buried in the forest. It was the first ever corroborating claim to Nikolai Sokolov's theory. However, it didn't say where exactly the family was buried. It wasn't until later on that Sokolov himself offered the missing puzzle piece. From beyond the grave, Alexander had obtained one of Sokolov's written accounts of a witness's testimony which explained that the Bolsheviks had placed wooden planks over the Romanov's burial sites. By now, the evidence that Sokolov had stored away in a church was believed to have been destroyed during World War II. But even though those items were lost to time, Alexander and Geli believed there was more out there for them to find. In the spring of 1979, the two men and their team managed to locate the exact burial site. Because the wooden planks were still there, they'd been laid like railroad tracks, which was perhaps a way to disguise what was hidden beneath. Now, when the team dug up the spot, they uncovered three human skulls with bullet holes in them. Alexander and Geli took the skulls with them and kept them preserved. But over the next year, they started to worry about what they'd done. Even though they'd obtained permits to dig, the Soviet government was still strongly opposed to even the slightest suggestion that the Romanov family had been tortured and killed. Alexander and Geli couldn't find anyone willing to perform the necessary forensic tests. And soon, soon they were scared that if the government learned about what they'd found, they'd go to prison, or worse, they too would disappear. So just one year after finding the skulls, they put them back where they found them, still in the box they'd stored them in.
- [45:08]
Dr. Tristan Engels
The idea that their own government would retaliate against them in violent or lethal ways can create existential fear that can reshape how a person thinks, feels and makes decisions, as you can see here. And even, even with what happened with Nikolay Sokolov. In response, people often respond with hypervigilance and isolation. The nervous system is on high alert and they scan for danger constantly because of reality based threats to their life. And when you have nowhere to turn for protection, isolation becomes the logical option. But the more alone you are, at the same time, the more you avoid others, the more you reinforce that isolation is safe. And the more the fear of resurfacing and rejoining civilization again is amplified. So it also creates just overall distress, because they believe they were uncovering the truth, doing something historically significant. But now the truth itself had become dangerous. And that conflict between what they believe is right and what they must do to survive can create guilt, shame and a sense of hopelessness again, much like what Nikolai experienced.
- [46:17]
Vanessa Richardson
It wouldn't be until more than a decade later, in 1990, that Alexander and Geli finally felt safe enough to come forward again. That year, the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse, and the country was finally ready to confront its past. So Alexander and Geli appealed to Russia's first ever democratically elected president, Boris Yeltsin, to try digging up the site again. They told Yeltsin everything they knew knew. And he approved the formation of an official team of archaeologists and forensic experts to dig through the Koptayaki Forest once more. The team not only discovered the box containing three skulls, but six other sets of remains. Almost all of the bone fragments they found showed signs of bullet wounds, stabbing or blunt force trauma. It was all completely in line with the theory that the Romanovs had been killed in the Patiev basement. And by 1994, forensic DNA analysis confirmed the astonishing news. It was the Romanovs. It was an historic moment and cause for both celebration and grieving. However, there was also one problem. There were two bodies missing between the family and their staff members. There should have been 11 bodies total, but there were only nine. They were missing. Missing two of the children, Alexi, and one of the girls, either Maria or Anastasia. Investigators were completely stumped. And that's when someone asked a crucial question. What if Anna Anderson had been telling the truth? That would explain at least one of the missing bodies. Anna had died back in 1984, but some of her tissue had been preserved. DNA experts compared it to the remains found in the forest, and it was not a match. For people all over the world, the constant push and pull of this everlasting mystery was getting to be too much. Many wondered if the world would ever learn the full fate of the Romanovs.
- [48:20]
Dr. Tristan Engels
The anticipation of closure, finally after all this time and not fully getting it, had to have taken an emotional toll. The mind hates unfinished stories, especially ones tied to trauma or injustice. And decades of speculation. That interruption create cognitive dissonance, which we've talked about earlier. But we know the family was killed, but we don't have all the bodies. Those two truths don't neatly fit together. And to reduce the internal tension that causes, people start searching for explanations. Which is why questions about Anna Anderson resurfaced. Even implausible theories become appealing, because it's better than uncertainty. There's also a collective grief response. For many, the Romanov story represents innocence lost, historical tragedy and unanswered questions passed through generations. This experience can reactivate grief, frustration, or even anger. It's like emotional whiplash. And finally, mysteries like this evoke psychological investment from people after so many years of theories and rumors and folklore, people feel personally connected to the outcome. So when there were still no answers, that can cause people to feel restless or preoccupied or even fatigued mentally by the ongoing mystery of it all. It's truly an emotional roller coaster. Even now, even going through this with you, Vanessa, it's an emotional roller coaster.
- [49:50]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, years went by without any more answers. While much of the world had given up on ever learning the truth, there was one group of people who couldn't shake the feeling that investigators had misspelled something. And in 2007, they were proven right. That year, a group of amateur archaeologists was trudging through the Koptayaki Forest. This wasn't just any group of amateurs either. Every single summer, they spent each weekend looking specifically for the missing Romanov remains. And in July 2007, nine decades since the Romanovs were killed, the group stumbled upon a small hollow cover covered with nettles and brush. They started digging, and pretty soon they turned up bone fragments. The bones were just as badly damaged as the ones that had been found earlier. And when DNA experts compared the new sets of remains to the ones they already had, they confirmed the long awaited truth. The remains belonged to Alexei and one of the girls. Almost a century later, the case was finally closed. The Romanovs would go down in history as symbols of a ruined empire and the end of a long chapter in Russian history. However, they're also symbols of a national wound that never fully healed. Through it all, people found ways to persevere and seek justice through hope, imagination, and sheer dedication. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another killer.
- [51:41]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media rimehouse and don't forget to rate, review and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.
- [52:03]
Vanessa Richardson
And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertsav Sarah Camp, Ines Renike, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. Looking for your next listen. Hi, it's Vanessa Richardson and I have exciting news. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is leveling up. Starting the week of January 12th, you'll be getting two episodes episodes every week. Wednesdays we unravel the conspiracy or the cult, and on Fridays, we look at a corresponding crime. Follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.