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- [00:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi Crime House community. It's Vanessa Richardson looking for another Crime House original podcast to add to your rotation. You will love Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore. Every Wednesday, Morgan and Kaelyn dig into the world's most notorious crimes, clue by clue. From serial killers to shocking murders. They follow the trail of clues, break down the evidence and debate the theories. It's like hanging out with your smart and true crime obsessed friends. Listen to clues on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [00:45]
This is Crime House.
- [00:50]
We all have a breaking point. A moment when the carefully constructed facade begins to crack and the pressure becomes too much to bear. It's in these moments that the mask we wear for the world can slip and our true character is revealed. That's what happened to John Wayne Gacy. While he killed dozens of young men and boys, he projected an image of a decent, hard working man who deeply cared about his community. He was a successful businessman and even a beloved clown. John maintained this intricate deception for years, thinking he was untouchable. But as the police closed in and the pressure mounted, John began to unravel. The man who thought he could get away with anything found himself losing his grip on the deadly secrets he had buried.
- [02:02]
The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [02:17]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And I'm Dr. Tristan Ingalls. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes.
- [02:24]
Vanessa Richardson
A killer Crime House is made possible by you. Follow Killer Minds and subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple podcasts for ad free early access to each two part series. And if you can't get enough true crime, go search and follow Crime House daily. Our team's twice a day show bringing you breaking cases, updates and unbelievable stories from the world of crime that are happening right now. Before we get started, you should know this episode contains depictions of murder and sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. Today we'll conclude our deep dive into the infamous crimes of John Wayne Gacy. In the 1970s, John masqueraded as a successful businessman and passionate community leader. He brought smiles to children's faces with his clown act. But John wasn't the kind hearted man his neighbors thought he was. By the time anyone realized what John did behind closed doors, he had become one of America's most prolific serial killers.
- [03:26]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And as Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some killers try to trick authorities but end up being tricked when they're under pressure and what measures they'll take to try to avoid facing the consequences of their actions.
- [03:42]
Vanessa Richardson
And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?
- [03:50]
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- [05:25]
Vanessa Richardson
By December of 1978, 36 year old John Wayne Gacy owned his own company, PDM Contractors, and was serving as treasurer of his town in the suburbs of Chicago. In his free time, John volunteered as a clown at the local children's hospital. But John also had a horrifying secret. By this point, he'd claimed over two dozen lives. They were all teenage boys and young men who he picked up around the city, usually with promises of a contracting job. Once he brought them back to his house, he used alcohol and handcuffs to restrain and take advantage of his victims. Then he disposed of their bodies in the crawl space of his home or buried them under his garage before covering them in cement or quicklime. At some point, John Began running out of room in his house. As the stench of rotting corpses grew stronger, he began dumping people's bodies in the Des Plaines river. Since committing his first murder in 1972, John usually targeted boys who were either traveling the country or who were from low income families. That way, either either no one would report them missing, or if they did, the police were less likely to investigate because they assumed the boy ran away from home. But the more John got away with things, the more cavalier he became. Soon he realized he could target anyone he wanted. And on December 11, 1978, he struck again. That evening, 15 year old Robert Piest was working a shift at the local pharmacy. Robert. Robert was from a well to do family. He wasn't John's typical victim. But when John entered the store and saw Robert lifting heavy boxes, he decided to go after him. He approached Robert and asked him if he wanted to work a contracting gig for some extra cash. Robert was intrigued. Around 7:30pm Robert clocked out, then called his mom and told her a man named John Wayne Gacy had offered him a job. Robert told his mom he was going to John's house to sign some paperwork and that he'd be home afterward. But Robert never made it home.
- [07:41]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So let's talk about why he decided to take this risk by targeting Robert, who came from a more affluent background. Firstly, obviously, this is an escalation. By this stage, Gacy's compulsive urges and sense of power had grown and intensified each time he murdered and got away with it. Like is the case with most serial offenders, it reinforced his belief that he was untouchable. And as someone who was previously evaluated and found to have had antisocial traits, power or invincibility overrides self preservation in individuals like that. So another factor is psychological entitlement. Gacy seemed to consistently crave validation from people and systems that had once excluded him, like authority figures and successful families or people in politics. Even by targeting someone like Robert, it may have been his way of asserting power over a world that he felt rejected him and that he was entitled to reclaiming that power. Finally, there's the impulsive compulsive overlap that we often see in serial offenders. The planning and control that once defined his crimes start to fade as his urges intensify. So in Gacy's case, the once relatively careful predator was becoming a more compulsive one. Targeting Robert specifically seemed to be because of his arrogance, a need for control and an addiction to dominance, making him less cautious and more emboldened.
- [09:06]
Vanessa Richardson
Whatever was driving john, he'd unknowingly stepped into a trap of his own making. The next day, Robert's mother called the des plaines police department and reported him missing. Since the piests were a well established middle class family, officers took the matter seriously. They began searching for robert right away. Robert's mother had mentioned that her son was going to the home of a man named John wayne gacy, who lived in norwood park, about eight miles from des plaines. So lieutenant joseph cozen made his way there. When john opened up, Kozenc explained the situation and asked if he could come down to the station. But john said he was dealing with a death in the family and asked if he could go later. Kosensack said he could, but he had an odd feeling about the disgruntled and disheveled man. So he went back to the station and ran a background check on john. That's when he discovered john's past sodomy charge and prison sentence. Kozencak quickly contacted terry sullivan, the supervising state's attorney for northwestern cook county, and told him he thought john was holding Robert captive in his home. The two officers only grew more suspicious the longer it took for john to show up at the station. Finally, on December 13, one day since Robert's mother reported him missing, John walked through the doors. Once he sat down with the officers, he told them he'd seen robert at the pharmacy, but that he never spoke to him. But they KN that was a lie. Fortunately, officer kozenc and Terry sullivan were already drafting a search warrant on suspicion of unlawful restraint. But they needed to get it approved before john left, otherwise he might slip through their fingers. So another officer named James pickel stepped in to help try and buy some time. He sat down with john and asked him to write a statement about everything he saw Robert doing at the store and anyone else who was present. Afterward, pickell began asking John about his business and community work. John loved the chance to brag about his accomplishments and everything he did for his town. He got so distracted talking about himself, he had no idea that investigators had secured a search warrant on his home and that kozenc was on his way there now.
- [11:28]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So the detectives clearly picked up on gacy's weakness during their conversation with him. And that is his ego. And it's not unsurprising. They are exposed to a lot of of individuals with strong antisocial or narcissistic traits. And because of that, they know these individuals crave admiration and control over how they're perceived. So instead of Confronting him or making him defensive. They gave him an audience. They fed his grandiosity. And this kind of strategy works for law enforcement officials in instances like this one, because many offenders assume they're controlling the interaction, when in fact, their need to dominate is what's being used against them. And this bought them the time they needed, clearly, to execute their warrant without raising suspicion.
- [12:10]
Vanessa Richardson
So knowing what you know about John at this point, how do you think he'll react when he finds out what's really going on?
- [12:16]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, given what we know about him so far, I'd expect an initial display of, like, indignation, like, minimizing, blaming others, insisting he's being framed and playing the victim, which he has a pattern of doing, followed by attempts to reassert control. That could mean talking too much, trying to outsmart them some more, or even volunteering information selectively to steer the story. Every reaction from this moment forward would be an attempt to reclaim control in some capacity.
- [12:46]
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- [12:48]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [12:53]
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- [12:58]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way.
- [13:03]
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- [13:09]
Vanessa Richardson
Run your way. @newbalance.com Running.
- [13:16]
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- [13:17]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [13:31]
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- [13:34]
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- [13:44]
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- [14:16]
Vanessa Richardson
As John Wayne Gacy rambled on about all his success at the police station, the officers at his home ran into a young man named David Cram. David was returning John's truck after a job. The timing couldn't have been more perfect. He gave the officers the keys, and John's truck was taken into their custody. They hoped they might find some evidence regarding Robert's whereabouts there. However, when officers went inside the house, they Started to realize they might not find Robert alive. There they uncovered a stash of all different types of sedatives and muscle relaxers, including Valium, nylon rope, handcuffs, and perhaps most concerning, a blood stain on the rug. They also found a photo receipt from the pharmacy where Robert worked. It had a serial number on it which they planned to trace. In the meantime, John returned home that evening to find his truck gone and his house overturned. He was livid. But that wasn't all. Since authorities didn't have grounds to keep him in custody yet, they put him under 24 hour surveillance. @ the same time, investigators started tracking down people who knew him. They interviewed one of John's former employees who had also lived with him on and off for about a year in 1977. The boy's name was Michael Rossi. When investigators spoke with Michael, they learned that John opened up his home to him when he fell on hard times. He even gifted him a white Plymouth satellite. When officers asked to see the title for the car, it had Rossi's name on it as well as the name John. And the address listed was John Gacy's. Not only that, but according to Michael, John had apparently purchased the car from a 19 year old boy named John Schittz, who went missing the same year Michael started driving it. To the police, this was a bad sign. John Wayne Gacy was now connected to two missing boys and their suspicions only grew from there. Police also spoke to John's ex wife, Carol. Since the pair had been divorced for two years, there was wasn't much Carol could tell investigators. However, she did help them figure out that John used to employ 18 year old Johnny Butkovich, who went missing in 1975. About a year before John and Carol split. Johnny Butkovich brought the known number of missing boys to three. When State's attorney Terry Sullivan heard about this, his heart sank. He had a hunch that Robert P. Wasn't being held captive at all, but that he was dead along with the others. Sullivan needed to get John in custody. Otherwise there was no telling who he might hurt next. At the same time, Sullivan didn't want to risk letting John slip out of his hands. He had to make sure his request for an arrest warrant was airtight.
- [17:16]
When officers spoke with Johnny Butkovich's mother, they got one step closer. She gave them some documents that had belonged to Johnny, including the warranty for a small TV set that had gone missing from his room. Investigators kept the warranty handy, and in the meantime, they kept trailing John. On December 16, 1978, Officers Schultz and Robinson followed John into the Moose Lodge in Chicago Heights. When John spotted them, he bought them drinks and asked why they were following him. The officers told him he was under suspicion in connection to the disappearance of a teenage boy. John told them they had the wrong guy. He loved kids. After all, he was a.
- [18:02]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Clown. All right, so remember from episode one, we talked about how Gacy's childhood led to an unstable sense of self, and that resulted in him manufacturing a life built on image and different Personas, all in an attempt to reclaim control. Well, right now, his entire sense of self, however curated that might be, is under siege. His response to this, buying officers drinks and trying to harm them, is a form of social manipulation to control for that. But if you think about it, they're the same tactics he used to disarm his victims. He first started with alcohol. And beneath that performance, though, there's panic. And it's not panic of consequences, but panic about exposure. He cannot tolerate being seen as guilty, weak or powerless with the Persona that he has front facing to the public. So he overcompensates with bravado, using tactics that have been effective, which is quite typical of offenders like.
- [18:58]
Vanessa Richardson
Him.
- [19:00]
The officers weren't buying John's act. They followed him for the rest of the night and into the next day. December 17th. On the 17th, Sullivan brought police dogs into the garage where John's truck was being held, as well as other vehicles in police custody. He brought some articles of Robert's clothing and had the dogs pick up his scent immediately. One of the dogs ran to John's truck, jumped into the back seat and laid down. Sullivan recognized this as something known as a death reaction, which is strange behavior from animals when they sense that someone is dead. He now felt more certain than ever that the man they were after was a cold blooded killer. Meanwhile, in another part of town, John nearly admitted as much to the officers surveilling him. John had spent the whole day drinking at different bars. Schultz and Robinson followed him into each one. Eventually, he offered to buy them dinner. And while they ate, his mask slipped even more. First, John claimed that he had a bodyguard waiting in the wings should anything happen to him. Then he told the officers he was good friends with the mayor. He said there was no way they had the right guy. And he reminded them again that he performed as a clown for sick children at hospitals. Then John started rambling about what it was like to be a clown. And soon he said something disturbing. He told Schultz and Robinson that as a clown, if he felt a woman up, she'd Simply shrug it off as a playful joke. Then he looked directly at the officers and reportedly said these chilling words. A clown can get away with.
- [20:45]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Murder. Gacy knows on some level that alcohol disinhibits people because he uses it for that very reason on his victims. But he's either neglecting to recognize it does the same to him, or. Which I think is more likely. He does recognize it, and that's the point. But worse than that, it affects the control that he so fiercely protects. He's unraveling in this conversation. He's oscillating between grandiosity and paranoia, Claiming to have a bodyguard, boasting about connections with the mayor, and then reminding officers more than once that he performs for sick children. Because clearly he does that out of the goodness of his heart, not for secondary gain. All of this is image and reputation management attempts. But then we see psychological or narcissistic leakage as well, and that's when the image or facade momentarily slips. And that moment was when he said, a clown can get away with murder. The stress, the alcohol, and the fear of exposure are dismantling his defenses. And bits of truth are seeping through the cracks of.
- [21:47]
Vanessa Richardson
That. Do you think John really believed he could get away with anything, and maybe this was some kind of narcissistic game he was playing with the police? Or do you think it's possible he was maybe giving up at this point and slowly beginning to admit to his.
- [22:01]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Guilt? I think it's a bit of both. I think he absolutely believed he could get away with anything because he had been getting away with things for this long. But I think that belief is now under very real threat, and he knows it because he continues to witness them following him. That threat is causing him to unravel, and that's why he shifts between this inflated sense of self and power to self pity and victimhood right before their very.
- [22:26]
Vanessa Richardson
Eyes. Well, whatever John believed in that moment, his crimes were finally catching up with him. And it was only a matter of time before the full horror he'd unleashed would be put on.
- [22:40]
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- [22:46]
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- [23:44]
Vanessa Richardson
You.
- [23:47]
By December 18, 1978, police had been tailing 36 year old John Wayne Gacy for five days. He was their lead suspect in the disappearance of 15 year old Robert Piest. They also suspected he had something to do with the disappearances of 18 year old Johnny Butkovich and 19 year old John Schittz. While John was not formally charged with any crimes as of yet, the constant police presence was making him increasingly anxious. He spent most of that day trying to avoid the officers who were watching him. In an effort to protect himself, John called his lawyers and claimed the police were harassing him. He asked them to draw up a restraining order. While he waited for it to go through, he tried a different tactic. To throw off the law, John invited two of the officers, Schultz and Robinson, to his house for dinner. The officers figured this could be a perfect way to scope out John's home for clues, so they accepted. As John showed them around the house, he pointed out numerous photos of himself with local politicians. He also repeatedly asked why they were pursuing him, even though they'd already told him. All the while, John was careful to keep the officers away from his garage and the entrance to the crawl space in his.
- [25:07]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Bedroom. Okay, so at this point we need to start looking deeper into his performance. We already covered how his need to charm police officers was likely rooted in image and reputation management. Because he wants to present as calm, confident and generous, because he felt it would reinforce his innocence or in some way win them over on a personal level. Which is why I want to look at this a little bit deeper because this is a very bold move for him to do this, to invite them to his house like this. So let's recall Gacy's relationship with authority and his childhood. He internalized the message that dominance equals safety and therefore gravitated towards symbols of authority like police uniforms, creating that alter ego, political figures, community leadership, not because he respected power, but because he wanted to be part of it or even absorb it. He liked to dress like an officer. He even used handcuffs as part of his method of killing. So it's likely that buying officers drinks and then dinner, where the conversation was arguably too comfortable, then inviting them to his house, where the literal crime scenes are, wasn't just a manipulation tactic. It was a fantasy of equality. It allowed him to live in a world where he wasn't the suspect, but rather their peer and maybe even their.
- [26:22]
Vanessa Richardson
Superior. Well, one thing was for sure, John was distracted. He didn't seem to realize that the officers surveilling him weren't the only ones working the case. Back at the station, other officers were tracking the receipt they'd found at John's house previously. Apparently, the purchase had been made by another store employee. Employee? 16 year old Kim Byers. When they spoke with Kim, she told them that on the day Robert went missing, he let her wear his coat in the store because she was cold. After she made her purchase and got the receipt, she absent mindedly put it in the coat pocket. She forgot to take it out before Robert took his coat. When he left with John that day, it was further proof that Robert had been inside John's house. Shortly after police made this crucial discovery, the officers who were currently at John's home noticed another clue. Inside John's bedroom was a small TV that matched the description of the one Johnny Butkovich's mother said had gone missing from his room. This was the only potential clue the officers found in his home that night. When they notified State Attorney Terry Sullivan, he said they needed something more concrete if they were going to arrest him. Him. The officers felt it was only a matter of time before John really slipped up. Not only was he drinking heavily, but John was also mixing alcohol with different pills. On top of that, he invited Schultz and Robinson to his house again the next night. This time, they decided to be more proactive. Shortly after arriving, Schultz excused himself to go to the bathroom. But that's not actually what he planned to do do. Instead, he slipped into John's bedroom where he'd spotted the tv. He jotted down the serial number so he could compare it to the warranty. Later on, John would be definitively linked to a second missing boy. As Schultz did this, he noticed something else too. A faint foul odor. He hadn't noticed it the day before and he couldn't tell where it was coming from. But he didn't linger on it for too long, otherwise John might come looking for him. Then, on his way back to the dinner table, he stopped off in the bathroom to flush the toilet as a way to cover his tracks. At that moment, the heat blasted on from a vent. This caused the odor to become so intense it was nauseating. Schultz knew he had smelled something like it before, but he couldn't place it for now. He returned to his seat before John got too suspicious. The rest of the evening was uneventful, but the next day brought some unwelcome News. On Wednesday, December 20, State Attorney Sullivan was served with a harassment suit from John's lawyers. A hearing was scheduled for that Friday that lit a fire under Sullivan, because if John won the harassment suit, the police could no longer have him under surveillance, leaving him free to continue hunting down victims.
- [29:24]
With less than two days until the hearing, Sullivan tracked down another one of John's employees, 21 year old David Cram, who'd given officers the keys to John's truck. When investigators spoke with David, he told them that John had asked him to help dig some trenches for new pipes he was installing in his crawl space. Apparently, he wanted to fix a sewage problem that was causing water buildup in the crawl space as well as an odor throughout the house. Sullivan was suspicious. He knew a little about home construction himself, and this didn't sound right. So he asked David to draw a map of the trenches, including their dimensions and where the crawl space was located. When David showed him the map, Sullivan immediately noticed that the trenches didn't go anywhere. They weren't actually designed to drain anything. Not only that, but they were way too wide for the kinds of pipes John had said he was going to use. And that's when something dawned on Sullivan. David hadn't been digging trenches for pipes. John had him digging graves. He called the officers who were watching John and told them not to let him out of their sight under any circumstances. As it so happened, they were currently following him on his way to his lawyer's office. On Thursday, December 31, they waited in the car while he went inside to talk to them. Even though Sullivan wanted them on top of John, they couldn't bre privileged conversations with his attorneys. But they were about to find out what was going on in there anyway, because pretty soon, John passed out drunk on his lawyer's couch. Once he was asleep, one of the attorneys went outside and marched right up to the officers in their car. They were expecting him to tell them off, but instead he begged them to arrest John. Apparently, John had confessed to some serious.
- [31:20]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Crimes. People with strong antisocial or narcissistic traits don't usually confess out of guilt or remorse. They confess because of ego fatigue. Maintaining the lie becomes harder than facing the truth. Gacy had reached a point where his own narrative was disintegrating, and by confessing, he could reclaim control, which is what he valued the most. But he also did it while intoxicated, which Likely was his way of self medicating the years of tension from being who he pretended to be and who he actually was. Drinking made it easier for him to let his defenses down, but also to be the parts of himself he couldn't consciously face when he was sober. In a disinhibited state like that, the truth could leak out without having to fully confront it, much in the same way he could act on his urges to kill when he victimized, since he started by drinking first. There's also an element of psychological relief here. For someone who lived with so much secrecy and fragmentation, disclosure can momentarily restore coherence. So for him, it would be like finally exhaling after years of holding your breath. But not because he has a conscience. Suddenly, this is purely about his own physical and psychological.
- [32:35]
Vanessa Richardson
Comfort. There is attorney client privilege. Why do you think John's lawyer immediately went out and told the.
- [32:42]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Police? I'm so glad you asked this, because it's really significant. For a lawyer to tell police to arrest their own client is extraordinarily rare. Attorneys are bound by confidentiality or attorney client privile, like you said. But if his attorney didn't disclose what Gacy said, then he didn't technically breach that confidentiality. Under attorney client privilege, lawyers can't reveal what a client tells them in confidence. But there's an exception, much like with mental health providers, when they believe the client poses an imminent threat to others. Gacy had to have made statements that suggest an ongoing danger, and his attorney's ethical duty to protect public safety took precedence. This is something that Gacy likely never considered. When we think about power dynamics, something central to Gacy's psychology, it's clear that he had to be in control. His victims were employed by him. His contractors worked for him. Even his attorney was someone he hired and paid. That financial relationship may have given him a false sense of security and loyalty and a belief that because he signed the checks, he also controlled the outcome. Which clearly is not how that works.
- [33:55]
Vanessa Richardson
Here.
- [33:57]
Even though John Wayne, Gacy's lawyer, couldn't tell them exactly what Gacy had said. When Terry Sullivan heard about this, he felt more urgent than ever as he raced to secure another search warrant. While he and other officers worked on the request, Officer Schultz frantically ran into the station. He said he'd finally realized something. The smell in John's house resembled bodies in a morgue. Sullivan believed that this statement, combined with the photo receipt found at John's house, were enough to secure another search warrant. But they still had to wait for a judge's signature. While they waited, the surveilling officer spotted John stumbling out of his lawyer's office in a drunken haze. From there, he drove to a local gas station to fill up his car car. But when he paid the attendant, he also slipped that person some marijuana. John's own eyes were red and puffy. The attendant was dumbfounded, as were the police. They were right there watching John do something illegal. But it wasn't what they wanted to arrest him for. They had to make sure that once they had him in custody, they could hold him. They didn't even apprehend John when he next sped off and crashed into a ditch. However, all the waiting was about to become worth it. John then made his way to his friend Ron's house a few blocks away. Ron was confused when he opened the door and saw John disheveled and unshaven. And then John asked for a glass of scotch. Ron thought John was a stand up guy and believed he was in a moment of crisis over something. So he invited him in and tried to get him to open up about what was going on. At first John hesitated, but soon he burst into tears. He grabbed Ron by the shoulders, looked him in the eye and said, quote, I've been a bad boy. I killed 30 people, give or take a few.
- [35:58]
Ron was speechless. He tried to get John to stay and explain himself, but John tore himself away and left the house. The officers kept following him as he went to two more friends houses and made the same confession. He also told his friends he was saying goodbye to everyone and that his final stop would be the cemetery where his father was.
- [36:22]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Buried. This sounds a lot like a goodbye tour, one in which he gets to give a farewell speech on his terms. Even if he is confessing to his crimes to his friends, it's coming from him first. His friends are hearing it from him before they hear it from the news. And that's once again about controlling the narrative. But what's interesting is how he worded it. I've been a bad boy. That's childlike, almost like a regression. It echoes the language of how he grew up under his father's roof. It reads of shame and punishment. So it's no surprise that his next intention is to visit his father's grave. Going to the cemetery might have represented both an apology and a confrontation, or even a final like merging with the father figure who defined his pain. This all reads as again, a final performance, just intended to preserve dignity, image and control however he possibly.
- [37:19]
Vanessa Richardson
Could.
- [37:22]
Whatever John intended, he never actually made it to the cemetery. By now, the officers had relayed to their higher ups how many murders John was claiming to have carried out. That's when they finally got the go ahead to arrest him. As John made his way to his father's grave, one of the officers jumped out of their car, pointed his gun at John and told him he was going to jail. They still had no idea what kind of hellish nightmare had yet to be uncovered.
- [38:01]
Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh.
- [38:18]
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
Sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first.
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- [39:00]
Vanessa Richardson
Store.
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As Thursday, December 21st came to a close, 36 year old John Wayne Gacy was finally arrested after telling multiple friends that he'd killed 30 people at the same time. Time Assistant State's Attorney Terry Sullivan got a judge to sign off on a second search warrant for John's house. That night, a slew of people arrived at the house, including officers from the Des Plaines Police department, evidence technicians and attorneys for the.
- [39:31]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
State. So my grandfather, Louis Rvatulo, whom I talked about on our episode of the Golden State Killer and his work co creating the rape kit with Martha Goddard, was called out of retirement to assist on this crime scene. He was the chief of the Chicago Crime Lab, retiring earlier that.
- [39:48]
Vanessa Richardson
Year. That is amazing. I got chills. Incredible. Well, when they first entered the home, nothing seemed too out of the ordinary. But as they looked closer, they did find some things that seemed unusual. During their initial walkthrough of the house, they found books on homosexuality as well as sex toys that appeared recently used. And then in the attic, they found several wallets belonging to different young men. Finally, a technician named Daniel Gente located the crawl space in John's bedroom and prepared to go in. Genti geared up, and once he was inside, he noticed a bit of flooding. This was typical for these kinds of spaces, but they would need to drain the water to see what else was in there. Once that was done, Genti went back in With a flashlight and shovel in hand.
- [40:40]
On his hands and knees, he inspected all corners of the crawl space. And soon he saw something eerie. There were multiple areas where hundreds of thin red worms were gathered. As Genti got closer to one of these areas, a putrid smell suddenly hit him. He knew what that had to mean. Genti plunged his trenching tool into the dirt, and when he pulled it back up, he undo uncovered rotting flesh and bones. The more he dug, the more remains he found. While each set of remains would have to be tested, he confirmed everyone's fear. John had told the truth. There were likely 30 bodies buried in his.
- [41:23]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Home.
- [41:26]
So let's talk more about this crime scene, because there's a reason my grandfather was called out of retirement for it. He'd authored and co authored several books on crime scene investigation, and he taught at the police academy. And like I said, he even helped develop the first rape kit with Martha Goddard. All because of his expertise in evidence collection. So when news of this discovery broke, he was one of the few people with the experience to take it on. Even though he was retired, they needed everyone they could get. But nothing could have fully prepared anyone for what they found. This wasn't just about the number of bodies, though that alone was staggering. It was also the conditions. The elements can complicate a scene under the best of circumstances, but here, the environment was also working against them. The house sat in the Chicagoland area, which was not far from where I actually grew up. We have humid summers and bitterly cold winters, and those temperature swings alternately accelerate and slow decomposition, which make it incredibly difficult to recover and preserve remains. In some areas, skeletal fragments had fused to the soil itself. Technicians had to excavate by hand, like you talked about, literally on their hands and knees, like an archaeological dig to ensure every piece of evidence was recovered, every victim identified, and every life accounted for. And on top of that, the space was flooded. So the moisture, the darkness, the little airflow, all of that made the conditions nearly unbearable to process. My grandfather's own home had a crawl space, so I can almost picture what it must have been like. It's called a crawl space because that's exactly what you have to do. You have to crawl or crouch through it. In my grandfather's home, there was only One light bulb, no switch. You had to find your way in the dark, reach up and pull the cord to turn it on. And not all crawl spaces even have lighting. So now imagine processing a crime scene of this magnitude in those cramped, airless conditions with the weight of. Of a Chicago winter above you. That's what these investigators faced. It wasn't just arduous physical labor. It was another level of emotional endurance. Now, as for John, his ability to live, eat, sleep, and entertain guests, there shows again his level of compartmentalization. In a disturbing way, that crawl space became a physical manifestation of his psyche. Above ground, he presented himself as successful, friendly, community minded. The illusion of normalcy where everyone thought, he's a standup guy. Below ground, hidden from sight, were the truths he refused to face. Violence, secrets, and shame. The sheer volume of victims also points to escalation and desensitization. Each act made the next easier for him. The space more crowded and the disconnect between his public and private selves more profound. It wasn't storage. It was containment. He was burying the evidence of what he couldn't integrate about his own.
- [44:27]
Vanessa Richardson
Self. I cannot even imagine walking into that house and think that your grandfather was there is incredible. What kind of effect could this discovery have on the investigators and others who are processing the.
- [44:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Scene? Well, I can tell you from firsthand experience, my grandfather never talked about it. He never offered information on it, and he never mentioned it. I learned about it by randomly asking him one day, not expecting him to have had any role in it at all. I just asked him, knowing that he was in law enforcement, knowing the magnitude of what he had done, but he didn't tell me much other than that he was called out of retirement to assist on it and to ensure it was processed in the best way possible. He talked about how difficult of a crime scene it was without any graphic detail. And he also briefly did meet Gacy. Crime scene technicians, detectives, and medical examiners are all trained to handle difficult cases. But I don't think anything can prepare you for unearthing dozens of victims from beneath a family home like this. And like I mentioned, they worked for weeks in cramped, toxic, claustrophobic conditions, digging through soil that held evidence in people's children. Many of those working this scene had children of their own and grandchildren of their own. That's not something that just goes away. That's something that can cause secondary trauma or post traumatic stress disorder. And back then, there was no psychological aftercare for first responders in the way that it is offered.
- [45:54]
Vanessa Richardson
Now. Now.
- [45:56]
While the Discovery of the mass grave was the final nail in John's coffin. After authorities found the first sets of remains, he was quickly charged with murder. After investigators found the first set of intact human remains buried in the crawl space of John's house, they called a coroner. John had already waived his Miranda rights. Now, he told officers he'd used concrete and quick lime to cover the bodies and mask the smell. And by the next morning, December 22, 1978, John had given a full confession. However, his claims didn't help investigators gain a clearer picture of the crimes. John told investigators that if they wanted to know exact details about how the murders occurred, they would have to ask a man named Jack Hanley. According to him, Jack was an alternate personality that took over and murdered the victims and that he was the one who disposed of the bodies. John said he had no memory of the things Jack did. He also said that Jack had become so uncontrollable that as the bodies piled up in his home, he ran out of space to bury them. Which is why a few of the victims, including Robert Piste, were left in the Des Plaines river. It's unclear what police thought about John's wild confession, but they did have him draw a meticulous map of the crawl space. And over the holidays, a forensics team began to exhume all of the bodies. The final tally of the victims found in and around John's house was 29, and four more were recovered from the Des Plaines river, making the final victim count 33. Robert Piest was the last to be found In April of 1979, when his decomposing body washed up on shore. Police used dental records to identify him. Ultimately, John received 33 murder counts, one for every victim, along with other charges of sexual assault and deviancy.
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John's lawyers knew that in order to try and save him from the death sentence, they were going to have to try for an insanity plea. They did everything they could to try and prove that he was mentally unstable, including taunting Jack Hanley to speak to to them. On one occasion, In January of 1980, about a month before John's trial was scheduled to begin, Jack did allegedly come through. He not only called John all sorts of names, but he also took John's attorneys out cruising for victims. The lawyers got into the car with John, who, acting as Jack, mimed the entire process of picking up a young man, bringing him home, having a sexual encounter, founder, and killing him. Then, when John supposedly returned again, he asked his lawyers what.
- [48:49]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Happened. Let's start with this legal insanity because it's often misunderstood. When I'm called in to evaluate whether someone is legally insane, I'm assessing two things. Whether they had a mental disease or defect that meets the legal standard, and whether that condition impaired their ability to appreciate the wrongfulness of their actions at the time of the alleged events. That's key. We're looking at their mental state during the crime, not afterward. Gacy's mental health after his arrest, which is what they're showcasing here, is a completely separate matter that would fall under competency to stand trial, which simply asks whether he understands the legal process and can assist in his own defense. Because he presently is appearing as if he might not. That's not the same as insanity, which is why this whole display here is raising alarm bells to me, as if forensic psychologist. Now, in forensic evaluations, there is almost always some degree of secondary gain involved, meaning the person being evaluated stands to benefit from a particular outcome, whether that's leniency in sentencing, like a reduced sentence, or avoiding criminal responsibility. And because of that, the possibility of malingering, which is faking symptoms for personal gain, is on the table. That's not to say that everyone I evaluate is malingering. In fact, most are not. But it's something we pay close attention to and are very cognizant of. But part of how we determine this is by looking at their history, observing their behavior and symptoms during a clinical interview, administering assessments, including those of malingering, getting collateral information and identifying consistent or inconsistent patterns. Now, when it comes to Gacy, here's why I think this is more likely than not another performance. Up until his arrest, he was by all accounts regarded as social and well liked. He volunteered and performed for. He owned his own business and interacted with the community. And he presented as a model citizen, a citizen where a lot of people and a lot of witnesses will come forward and have come forward to say, john's an upstanding guy. I would never have thought that. I heard all these noises and we thought, nothing is going on over there. It's John. That right there to me is collateral and historical information that until this point proves that he was a high functioning individual. So what changed? Well, he got caught. Then he suddenly is showing signs of severe mental disturbance. A month before his trial. He was dining with law enforcement before this, buying them drinks, charming them, until he was arrested. These severe mental health symptoms began showing only when he's in the presence of his attorneys and only when he had something to gain from it. A genuine mental illness that would meet legal Standards of insanity doesn't appear suddenly and conveniently when it's most advantageous. It doesn't depend on cont or audience. So the likelihood that Gacy was malingering and performing a role to manipulate the system just as he had manipulated or attempted to manipulate everyone else, seems highly probable. And I would absolutely be ruling that out if I were assessing.
- [51:53]
Vanessa Richardson
Him. If it is fake that he's not, doesn't really have this alter ego, what does that say about John that he's willing to put on this.
- [52:01]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Performance? Well, remember, Gacy has a pattern of rewriting the story so that he's the misunderstood one or the victim. So if he really was performing here, then allowing people to believe that he had a severe mental illness means that he was once again able to externalize the blame onto something other than.
- [52:19]
Vanessa Richardson
Himself.
- [52:22]
When the trial of John Wayne Gacy began on February 6, 1980, it became clear to John that whether the insanity plea worked or not, he was still going to prison for the rest of his his natural life. There was a mountain of witness testimony working against him, including statements from some of his victims mothers, as well as statements from one of John's early victims who had survived. Not to mention the evidence against John painted a picture of a ruthless, calculated killer. As for the defense, John's mother and sister testified about the abuse John suffered at the hands of his father. His doctors testified about the effects of that abuse as well. One said that he had become a borderline personality and had paranoid schizophrenia. A second doctor said John was psychotic at the core and didn't know who he was. He described John's relationship with his father for the court in great detail, depicting a son that was beaten and berated not just for who he was, but what. What he could and could not do. According to this doctor, the mixture of love and violence created intense anxiety in one moment and the next it was as if nothing had happened at all. He also said the pervasive abuse coupled with stress led to psychotic episodes over time. And once triggered, John would split. He projected his own feelings onto his victims and killed them. To, quote, put them out of their misery, which was something he couldn't do to.
- [53:56]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Himself. The claim he was putting them out of their misery is moral disengagement, which is commonly seen in offenders with antisocial or narcissistic traits. It's their way of justifying cruelty by reframing it as compassion, necessity or mercy, which he has a pattern of doing. He's been doing this all along. We talked about that in episode One as well. This allows him the ability to maintain moral superiority and position himself as a rescuer instead of a perpetrator. Again, this reframing or this framing is consistent with what we've seen throughout his life. He externalized blame, distorted reality and recast himself as the victim or the misunderstood savior. It's manipulation and it's a means to maintain control. I don't believe Gacy genuinely felt he was ending anyone's suffering but his own. I think this was an attempt to make what he did palatable for the jury, for the public and for his own fragile ease.
- [54:49]
Vanessa Richardson
Ego. If John is actually being truthful, what does it say about him that he was compelled to torture and kill so many.
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
People? Yeah, if he truly felt compelled, it wasn't compassion driving him, it was control. His violence was a ritual of dominance, a way to silence his own shame and rage. He knew it was wrong, but it gave him power and that's what he was addicted.
- [55:11]
Vanessa Richardson
To. Well, in the end, the jury didn't think John had a good enough explanation for his multitude of viol violent crimes. On March 20, 1980, after five weeks of arguments, the jury was sent away to deliberate. After only two hours they returned and said they rejected the insanity plea and found John guilty on all charges. The moment the jury read their verdict, loud applause echoed through the courtroom. The victim's loved ones breathed a sigh of relief and one mother was overheard saying I hope you he burns in hell. After his conviction in 1980, 38 year old John Wayne Gacy was sentenced to death. However, even on death row his need for attention and control persisted. From 1980 to 1994, John painted self portraits as Pogo the Clown and even scenes of victims deaths, most of which his lawyers helped himself cell. During this time John also gave many interviews. He wanted to manipulate his public image by portraying himself as a victim, a man plagued by the Jack Hanley Persona. He thrived on the attention the national media provided. But no matter how much public attention John received or how many appeals his lawyers filed, John met his ends. On May 10, 1994, just after midnight, he was given a lethal injection. And though no one can confirm his last words, it's said that they were something to the effect of kiss my ass. After he died, John's final requests were honored. His funeral service was held the next morning. His favorite hymns were sung and he was buried next to to his father in Mary Hill Cemetery. For many, shedding light on John's crimes brought closure, at least in most cases. As of this recording, the identities of five of his victims remain a mystery to this day. Authorities are using genetic genealogy to try and identify them. Officials from the Cook County Sheriff's Office say everything they're doing is for the victim and that it's not about providing headlines, it's about providing answers.
- [57:49]
Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another.
- [57:55]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Killer. Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram Rimehouse and don't forget to rate, review and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.
- [58:15]
Vanessa Richardson
And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcast Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free, along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting Crime House bonus content.
- [58:32]
Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Meredith Allen, Sarah Tardiff and Keri Murphy. Thank you for.
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Vanessa Richardson
Done.
- [59:33]
Looking for your next Crime House listen? Don't miss Clues with Morgan Abshur and Kalyn More Every Wednesday, Morgan and Kayin take you deep into the world of the most notorious crimes ever. Clue by clue, it's like hanging out with your smart, true crime obsessed friends. Listen to clues on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.