C (7:07)

Losing a parent at five years old is an attachment disruption that can lead to complex grief, identity confusion, isolation, anxiety, depression, and relational strain later in life. But when that loss is immediately followed by boundary violations like this and exposure to a sibling with a violent temper, it can create a very complicated foundation for how a child learns to relate to others. Children make sense of the world through the people closest to them. So if the only male figure left in Santi's life was both inappropriate and unpredictable, she likely learned that closeness isn't safe or it's costly to her. So instead of seeing relationships as mutual or supportive, individuals in her position can grow up viewing them as something to manage, manipulate, or dominate to protect herself. And that pattern can spill into adulthood as a tendency to lie, charm, or use others before they have the chance to harm them. So at its core, that's about control. And her view of men, specifically may have been shaped by those early mixed signals where comfort and fear existed at the same time. And without correction or intervention, she wouldn't develop a template that's healthy for what safe attachment looks like. And then when Karim abruptly left, it was another abandonment, another rupture layered on top of the first. All of this occurring in such a short window, could set the stage for an adulthood defined by mistrust, manipulation, and a deep need to stay in control of every relationship she'll have.

A (8:40)

How do you think a child's Mind might be shaped when they're attached to someone like Karim, who's so unsafe to be around.

C (8:48)

A child's brain is wired to bond with caregivers, even if those caregivers are harmful. So when the person they're attached to is also their source of fear, it can lead to what we call disorganized attachment later in life. This often shows up as craving closeness, but also fearing it. Sort of a push pull dynamic where they seek intimacy only to push it away the moment it feels too close or even threatening. It's also known as fearful avoidant attachment. And to cope in childhood, they may develop hypervigilance, becoming skilled at reading moods, anticipating anger, or adjusting their behavior to prevent harm. They learn that affection is unpredictable, conditional, or transactional. So, in other words, love becomes something you earn, control, or manage, not something that's freely given. And over time, this shapes their entire relational framework. They may grow up believing that closeness is risky and that vulnerability invites pain of some kind, or that the only way to stay safe is to stay in control. And because this belief system forms so early, it tends to follow them into adulthood, especially without any kind of intervention. And that affects how they choose partners, how they parent, and how they navigate relationships and. But also how they protect themselves emotionally.

A (10:06)

Well, Santi's life was already lacking stability. And shortly after Karim left, it got worse when her older sister also ran away. Now Santi was left to care for her younger sister while their mother worked constantly. It was a lot for a young girl to handle all at once. And pretty soon, Santi started lashing out in troubling ways. She'd physically abuse her sister by holding lit matches under her fingers. She also used hat pins to injure animals on the farm.

C (10:36)

Context always matters when we look at these behaviors clinically, so we don't over pathologize, especially in children. Santi was growing up in an unsafe and unstable environment, and children often express emotional pain through behavior. But even with that in mind, these kinds of actions would absolutely warrant an evaluation for conduct disorder and emerging antisocial traits.

A (10:59)

This behavior marked the beginning of a pattern of cruelty. The only thing that put a pause to it was that in the mid-1940s, when Santi was 10, the authorities noticed that she and her sister were being neglected. Officers took the girls from Marianne and sent them to a home for girls. Marianne wouldn't stand for it, though. So one day she went to visit her daughters, but ended up sneaking them out of the home and fleeing Oklahoma. The family moved to Los Angeles, where they settled in a small apartment above a factory. It was supposed to be a fresh start. But once they were there, Marianne noticed just how bad Santi's anger issues had become. She was so erratic and full of rage, her mother didn't know how to deal with her. Santi, for her part, didn't like being cooped up, so she'd wander the neighborhood alone. Marianne also wasn't making much money, so one day, Santi went into a soda shop. The couple who owned the shop felt sorry for her, and that's when Santi told them that she was from a very poor family and was hungry. The couple had noticed her out on the streets by herself before. They felt sorry for Santi and gave her something to eat, which quickly became a regular occurrence. Santi realized that she could use her charm and a good story to get what she wanted, and a few months later, this newfound skill came in handy. The couple who owned the soda shop introduced Santi to the woman's sister and her husband, Mary and Ed Chambers. The Chambers were so taken with Santi that they asked to adopt her. Santi's mother had become so afraid of her angry outbursts that she agreed, and Santi moved with the Chambers to Carson City, N.V. when she was 12 or 13. She changed her name to Sandy Chambers. But the new name and change of scenery didn't stop her disturbing behavior. She picked on younger kids, tying them up and putting lit matches between their toes. If any of these kids told their parents what happened, Santi didn't appear to face any serious consequences. However, in 1950, when she was 16, she did face charges after stealing lipstick from a store. But the charges were dropped, and Santi went on to graduate high school in 1952 with a clean record.

C (13:16)

These behaviors absolutely fall into the realm of what we would evaluate for conduct disorder, especially given how early they started. But there's another layer we also have to consider, which is impulse control deficit. Children who grow up in unstable, unsafe environments often don't develop the internal skills needed to regulate emotions or delay impulses. And their frontal lobe isn't fully developed. When they feel anger or fear, boredom or even curiosity, it can come out as immediate, aggressive action without thought for consequences. In Santi's case, she'd experienced profound instability, neglect, and trauma. Those early experiences can shape the developing brain in a way that makes self regulation incredibly difficult. So the cruelty, the aggression, and the stealing all cluster together, not just because of those emerging antisocial traits that we talked about earlier, but also because she had no consistent caregiver Teaching her boundaries, empathy, or emotional control. And so you see that pattern evolve at the soda shop. She discovers charm and storytelling as tools. That's adaptive manipulation. It's a shift from using physical aggression to get what she wants to using social strategies. Both still fit within the broader behavioral pattern we see in conduct disorder, but now she's adding in calculation and intentionality. So, clinically, her behaviors appear to reflect what we worry about with early conduct disorder and emerging antisocial traits. But they also show a child who learned that survival meant acting quickly, taking what she needed, and controlling her environment by any means necessary. Those early deficits in impulse control and empathy, combined with trauma and neglect, created a pattern that became more amplified and refined, because what she really needed was stability.

A (15:05)

While Santi's underlying motives were the furthest thing from her mind, she was more focused on the fact that she got away with everything. So even though on the outside she made an attempt at an honest life, deep down, she'd already decided she'd rather play by her own rules.

C (15:21)

And unfortunately, that is the outcome when there is permissive parenting or no parenting and no enforceable rules at home or in any micro or macro environment.

A (15:31)

After high school, she returned to California, where she bounced around jobs and apartments for the next couple of years. She briefly enrolled in secretarial school and journalism class, but nothing seemed to stick. So she turned to illegal ways to get by. In 1955, Santi opened a credit card using the name of one of her friend's fathers. She charged $400 to the card. That's almost $5,000 today. Then flew under the radar for a while. In 1956, when she was 21, she moved back to Nevada and started dating a man named Lee Powers. Within a few months, Santi wanted to convince Lee to marry her, so she lied and said she was pregnant. They got married in May of that year, and when it became clear she'd lied about the pregnancy, Lee stayed with her anyway. But a few months after that, Santi got bored of being a housewife, Especially since Lee didn't make that much money. After just a few months of marriage, she left him. But she was still on the hunt for a partner.

C (16:33)

In addition to her deception evolving, this pattern fits with the disorganized attachment we talked about earlier, which is craving closeness but fearing it at the same time, Santi rushed into intimacy. She used manipulation to secure it and then bolted the moment the relationship felt limiting or unfulfilling.

A (16:51)

In 1957, at age 23, Santi reconnected with a Guy she'd known in high school, Edward Walker, who was now a contractor. They quickly got married, married and moved to Sacramento, where Edward built tract houses on the edge of town. He made a lot more money than Santi's last husband. But she was still bored as a housewife. In need of some excitement, she started having affairs with her husband's wealthy clients. This was just one aspect of Santi's apparent thrill seeking behavior. Throughout the 1960s, she got caught shoplifting numerous times. She stole whatever she thought she needed to cultivate a more glamorous image, like clothing, coats, shoes and a hairdryer. After One incident in 1966, she pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and paid a $200 fine, which didn't bother her since she had Edwards money now. But it didn't do much to improve her reputation, which was already suffering. Not only were there rumors swirling about her infidelity, but people in town had also started to wonder if Santi was burning Edward's properties down on purpose. A few of his houses caught fire and he blamed faulty wiring, but he was still able to collect hefty insurance payouts. It's not clear whether Edward thought something else might have caused the fires, but plenty of people he and Santi brushed elbows with thought she was the real culprit. The 1960s marked other big changes for Santi too, like becoming a mother. On September 27, 1962, 29 year old Santi gave birth to a son, Kent. Shortly after this, Santi, Ed and Kent left Sacramento and moved to Southern California, presumably to make a fresh start. However, by 1967, Santi was restless again. Her desire for a lavish life kept growing, and even with the insurance money coming in, Edward couldn't give her that life. She filed for divorce and immediately set out to find a new man. This time, she wanted a millionaire.

C (18:55)

Santi's fixation on wealth makes sense when you look at the conditions she grew up in. Poverty represented instability, danger, and a complete lack of control. When a child associates not having enough with neglect and trauma, then money and wealth can become protection. But for Santee, it didn't stop at wanting security. It was also thrill seeking. People who grow up in chaotic environments can become desensitized to stress, so that can subsequently result in them wanting to chase intensity and wanting to seek bigger risks or bigger rewards and bigger highs. This pattern of chasing wealth and the means in which she was doing it offered her that adrenaline, but also impulse control deficits add to that. Overall, I think her obsession with money and dropping Each husband for a wealthier one was also about rewriting her past, avoiding the vulnerability she felt as a child and feeding the excitement she had come to rely on. Wealth, it seems, was her way of feeling powerful and alive.

A (19:57)

Why do you think she treated her romantic relationships like a means to an end?

C (20:02)

I mean, certainly her attachment style is one piece of that puzzle. But there are a few explanations that I think can account for this. Survival learning is one. She grew up in an environment where stability was scarce, and as a result, she started to value what people can give more than who they are. Relationships become transactions because that feels safer than vulnerability. Another is her emerging antisocial traits. Some of her behavior aligns with antisocial patterns. And so for individuals with these traits, relationships are often instrumental. People are tools. They're not partners. Also, her manipulations are working, so they're being reinforced. And as they're being reinforced, she's thinking bigger and she's thinking better. And she wants power and control because that means she's less likely to feel vulnerable again.

A (20:53)

Santi was definitely on a self destructive path. She didn't know what would make her truly happy. She could only seem to focus on material things. After her split from Edward, Santi took their son Kent, now 5 years old, and moved to Palm Springs. There she got breast implants and started wearing a dark wig. People said she looked like the actress Elizabeth Taylor, which Santi loved. And that's when she added the final touch to this latest version of herself. She started using her birth name again. However, she introduced herself to people as Sante instead of Santee because she thought it sounded more sophisticated. It seemed to work, too. No one had any idea that Sante was actually so broke she stole from grocery stores to keep food on the table. Sante wasn't worried about that, though, because she knew soon enough she'd find her millionaire husband. And she was right. In 1971, when Sante was 36 years old, she came across a magazine story about a rich motel developer named Kenneth kimes. Kenneth was 54 and he owned a construction company and a chain of motels throughout California. Reportedly built a fortune between 12 and $50 million. Like Sante, he was divorced. He also had two children. Sante thought Kenneth was perfect. He was marriage minded, already a father, and he was wealthy beyond her wildest dreams. All Sante had to do was snag Kenneth for herself. And once she did, she let her true evil unleash.

C (22:39)

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A (23:59)

In 1971, 36 year old Sante was living in Palm Springs, California when a wealthy real estate mogul named Kenneth Kimes landed on her radar. As soon as Sante learned about Kenneth, she started tracking him down and realized she and his sister had a mutual friend wrangled an invitation to a function she knew Kenneth would be attending, and once they were finally in the same room, Santa turned on the charm. Kenneth was instantly hooked. He was flattered by all the attention Sante showed him and wanted to keep seeing her. However, Kenneth wouldn't be in Palm Springs much longer. His work schedule required him to move to Newport Beach, California, about 100 miles away. But that was no problem to Sante, who took her younger son Kent and moved into Kenneth's mansion. There, Sante and Kenneth were able to keep dating and things were going extremely well. Kenneth loved that Sante was always the life of the party. He loved being around her. Sante was one step closer to having the millionaire husband she dreamed of, and even though she and Kenneth weren't officially married yet, she was certainly living the life. The couple ate at fancy restaurants and drove expensive cars. Sante hired maids to take care of the house and spent her time shopping for the kinds of clothes and perfume that Kenneth liked. Because he was a drinker, she pretended to drink as much as he did too, but secretly poured some of her cocktails into potted plants when his back was turned.

C (25:31)

Sante is shaping herself around what Kenneth wants as strategy. And like I highlighted earlier, relationships to her are transactional. She studies what a partner wants, wants what keeps them hooked, and then she becomes that version of herself psychologically. What this does is it keeps her in control, because if she can emulate what Kenneth wants, then she reduces her risk of abandonment or rejection, and it keeps the benefits, which is wealth, intact for her. He's clearly funding a very lavish lifestyle for her, which is exactly what she's chasing. And this performance was protecting her interests. And remember, she learned early on that people are easier to manipulate when they're calm, predictable, or satisfied, Similar to what.

A (26:14)

We talked about before. Do you think Sante just sees Kenneth as a means to an end, or was this maybe another form of thrill seeking for her?

C (26:21)

Definitely. I mean, she's starting this relationship with deception. She read about him in the paper and set out to find him. So it's not like they met organically. This was definitely strategic. But now she's performing and emulating what he wants to see just to secure what she wants for herself. And that's not really the foundation of a genuine relationship. And given their lavish lifestyle, the drinking and the shopping, it's definitely, definitely satisfying her thrill seeking. At the same time, she's not yet married, and I think there's also thrill in her pursuit of him as well.

A (26:52)

Do you think she had any real sense of self?

C (26:55)

A real sense of self is built through safe attachment, healthy boundaries, and caregivers who reflect back who you are in a stable and predictable way. Sante never had that. Instead, she learned to become whoever she needed to be in order to survive and to be accepted or to get what she wanted. And that kind of identity is fragile. It's extremely constructive. It's not internally grounded. So her pattern of behavior here certainly suggests that she lacks a stable sense of self.

A (27:25)

As usual, Sante stepped into her new identity with ease. She loved being Kenneth's partner and the image and status that came with it. She even changed the pronunciation of her name again, now going by shantay. At the same time, she still wasn't content as just a housewife. She needed more excitement. So in 1972, she devised a new scandalous business venture. She set her sights on the upcoming u. S. Bicentennial, the 200th anniversary of the founding of the United States. It was a huge nationwide celebration set to take place in 1976, and Shantae saw dollar signs. First, she and Kenneth formed a new company which they used to print 250,000 posters of state and national flags. Then they started selling them for $10 each. That would be almost $80 today. Once the business gained some recognition, Shantae drew up forged documents that named Kenneth as an honorary bicentennial ambassador. She used those documents to book speaking engagements, including a gig at the 1974 Rose Bowl Festival. After that, Shantae secured an audience with First Lady Pat Nixon. For a while, it looked as though Shantae and Kenneth were stepping into some powerful circles. Until their scheme came crashing down. Down. That same year, they tried to crash a high profile party in Washington, D.C. and got caught, prompting an FBI investigation that exposed weaknesses in security measures. Shantae and Kenneth didn't get into any trouble. But their new friends did start to realize they weren't as legitimate as they wanted everyone to think. And Shantae's other misdeeds did land her in hot water. She was still a compulsive shoplifter. Her and in September 1974, she was charged with grand theft after getting caught stealing something from a shop in Newport Beach. She got off on a $250 fine and two years probation. Kenneth didn't seem to mind Shantae's wild side. If anything, he liked it. However, by that same year, Shantae decided she wanted more from him. She'd been with Kenneth for three years and they still weren't married. So she may have decided to deepen their bond by becoming pregnant. On March 24, 1975, when she was 40 years old, Shantae gave birth to her second son, Kenneth Caram Kimes. They called him Kenny, and his middle name was an homage to Shantae's brother. Kenny was doted on by both of his parents. However, it was mostly nannies who cared for him, along with an entire household staff. True to her nature, Shantae used some shit shady means to hire these employees. She would travel to Mexico to recruit young women, luring them with promises of good pay and a better life in the U.S. then she smuggled them across the border, took away their identification and travel documents, and never paid them a dime. In other words, she was committing human trafficking.

C (30:33)

What we're seeing in Shantae at this point is a major escalation, not just in the severity of her crime crimes, but in the versatility of her crimes. Criminal versatility is when someone engages in a wide range of offenses across different categories. And in this case, we've seen theft, fraud, arson, exploitation, and now potentially human trafficking. Most people with a single Motive or a narrow skill set stay within one type of crime. But shantae didn't. She moved fluidly between whatever offense got her what she wanted in the moment. Clinically, that kind of versatility tells us a few things. First, it suggests her behavior. Behavior isn't impulsive or isolated. It's strategic. She understands how systems work, how people operate, and how to exploit them. Second, it shows a lack of internal barriers. Most people have lines that they won't cross even under stress. If a crime served her goals, she adapted quickly and didn't appear to feel any conflicted feelings about it whatsoever. And finally, escalation of this kind Often reflects increasing confidence as well. When earlier schemes work, People start to push boundaries and has limits. They take bigger risks because previous ones didn't result in any meaningful consequences. And for Shantae, each successful con reinforced the belief that she was untouchable, Clever enough to evade any kind of detection, and entitled to whatever she could take. This is a pattern of evolving exploitation that's driven by opportunity. That's been reinforced by success, because she's been getting away with this, and any kind of consequence has been very minimal. And it's been shaped by someone who learned very early in life that rules simply did not apply to her. And honestly, if I was appointed to evaluate someone like Shantae, I would assess for traits of psychopathy, Especially when we consider her early, emerging, callous, unemotional traits and the animal cruelty that started at age 10.

A (32:32)

What can you tell us about the psychology of human traffickers in general?

C (32:36)

Firstly, one of the biggest misconceptions about human trafficking Is that it always involves sex work at the root. It's about forced labor, and that's whether it's sexual, domestic, physical, commercial, or any service really performed under coercion or fraud. But the core element in every trafficking case Is exploitation through force, fraud, or coercion. To make a person work or comply. Traffickers see people as commodities. They strip away their humanity, and they replace it with utility. And to do that, you have to lack empathy. They often have a profound sense of superiority because they believe that their needs are more important Than someone else's basic human rights or safety. There's also a strong opportunistic element there. Traffickers choose victims who have limited resources, Limited protection, or limited options. They target vulnerability, and once they identify someone who's susceptible, they use manipulation or empty promises and coercion to reel them in. In it's calculated. And that's exactly what Shantae did here. These women were isolated and Dependent the moment she brought them over. And she knew it. And for many traffickers, Especially those with antisocial or narcissistic traits, they justify or rationalize their actions in whatever way allows them to continue. And allows anyone in their orbit to continue aiding them in this enterprise that they're taking on.

A (34:05)

Shantae saw these young women as replaceable. Sometimes the women she held captive escaped. And when that happened, she just went back to Mexico and did the same thing each time. She kept up her mistreatment toward them as well. Shantae usually had two maids in the house who worked from dawn to midnight. Shantae yelled at them constantly, Wrote pages of rules for them to follow. And ordered them to stay in their rooms when they weren't working. And to never speak to each other. The women, who barely spoke English and were a long way from home, had little choice but to obey. Meanwhile, Shantae started seeing mounting legal troubles. Related to her compulsive shoplifting. As well as a few insurance scams. Lawyers often came knocking. But she instructed her maids never to open the door to strangers. And never accept documents from anyone As a way to escape the law. Shantae and Ken Kenneth moved the family to Honolulu, Hawaii, Bringing their household staff with them. There, Shantae continued to live as she had in California. She made friends, dined at fine restaurants, and threw parties. Eventually, though, court summonses began to arrive in their mailbox. As stress mounted, the Kimes household turned volatile. Kenneth had always been a heavy drinker, and Shantae started joining him. Instead of just faking it. The two got drunk almost every night, which led to intense shouting matches. Pretty soon, Shantae's first son, Kent, who was now a teenager, Was acting out, too. He refused to do anything his parents told him to. He even ran away several times. But Shantae always convinced him to come home. However, in 1978, Kent finally realized that he. He'd never be safe in her care. It all started when their house in Honolulu mysteriously burned down. Just like in the past, People suspected that the Kaimes were behind it. The fire was deemed, quote, malicious. But no one was ever charged in the matter. After settling with the insurance company, Shantae and Kenneth decided that they should move back to the mainland. However, Kent stayed in Hawaii. He had a girlfriend who he'd been talking to about his issues at home. Home. And she convinced him that his parents were too dangerous to be around. He also reported his mother's mistreatment of their household staff to the police. But nothing came of it. Once the family packed their bags and left the island. They were out of his life for good. Eventually, Kent moved back to Nevada to be with his birth father. In 1979, Shantae, Kenneth, and little Kenny settled into a large house in Las Vegas. Vegas with a nanny and two maids. Here, Shantae's treatment of the women she hired grew even worse. She allegedly burned a maid with a hot iron and beat another with wire hangers. Shantae openly proclaimed that some people were born to serve. While others were born to be served. Yet even as she terrorized her employees, Shantae lavished affection on her youngest son, Kenny, who was now five years old. Kenny stayed home most of the time taught by private tutors. Because Shantae refused to send him to school. At the same time, she reportedly told one of his tutors they could only teach Kenny academics and never any moral lessons. She wouldn't even let the tutor read stories to him if they had a message about right versus wrong.

C (37:33)

Shantae is exhibiting a growing sense of entitlement and dehumanization organization, which isn't surprising when you consider the psychology of human traffickers. But she's also become emboldened over the years due to the lack of consequences for her crimes. And now there's alcohol use in the picture. Alcohol abuse reduces inhibitions, impairs judgment and reasoning, and affects mood. And she was already operating in a morally dark zone as it was with regard to her rigidity with her son Kenny. And who could have access to him. She was trying to preserve her influence. She already was losing her influence over her older son Kent. So course she was going to tighten her grip over her more impressionable and dependent son. She was not going to allow anyone to challenge her authority, Especially concepts like morality, independence, or right versus wrong. Those are ideas that could weaken her control over Kenny. Her need to dominate, eliminate threats, and maintain control was becoming stronger by the day.

A (38:30)

What's your take on the fact that Shantae didn't spend a lot of time teaching Kenny or actually caring for him in practical ways? She didn't want him to learn morals, for example, but she did shower him with affection and att attention. Do you think she was intentionally trying to make him form an extreme attachment to her or to only associate her with positive feelings?

C (38:49)

Shantae's relationship with Kenny actually reflects the disorganized attachment patterns. That we talked about earlier with Kenny. Shantae smothered him with attention and affection, but she didn't actually provide the kind of consistent caregiving or moral guidance that helps a child develop a healthy sense of self. So for Ken, that kind of parenting creates a lot of confusion. He learns that closeness comes with strings attached. He learns that affection is intense but unpredictable. And kids raised this way Often grow up without a stable internal compass. They're loyal to the parent because that's the only attachment they know. But they don't develop the ability to regulate emotions Much like Shantae didn't. They don't make independent choices or recognize unhealthy dynamics. And in Kenny's case, it made him incredibly vulnerable to Shantae's influence, and it set the stage for him to be pulled into her criminal behavior later on. Now, whether this was intentionally done to form an extreme attachment Is really hard to say, but the reality is, it was likely Both consciously and unconsciously done. She's repeating patterns unconsciously because that's what happens without intervention, awareness, or therapy. And at the same time, she's showing deliberate patterns of isolating Kenny from the outside world, Deciding what information he should or shouldn't know and what values he could be exposed to. Some might call that parenting, but some might call that controlling. What matters is the impact. Does Kenny become emotionally enmeshed, as in emotionally dependent, Isolated from outside guidance, and extremely vulnerable to her control? I would say yes, it looks like it to me. And we will see it become more severe as you take us through the story.

A (40:31)

Well, if Shantae thought she could play puppet master at home, it didn't work. Work. Unlike the nannies and maids she hired, the tutors were recent college graduates from the United States, so she couldn't gain as much control over them, no matter how much she tried. Shantae told the tutors to maintain strict surveillance over the maids, but none of them were willing to. Instead, most of them quit after about a month, Often taking the maids with them. As Shantae lost control over her employees, her rules became even more strict. Now she wouldn't even let Kenny play with kids in the neighborhood. At the same time, she remained focused on her scams. She found ways to steal not just luxury clothing, but cars and real estate. As always, legal action followed. By early 1980, Shantae had been arrested multiple times. However, none of her arrests ever led to more than a small fine. Plus, Shantae and Kenny moved around a lot to make it harder for the courts to serve papers. They bounced between Hawaii, New York, and Washington, D.C. the more they got away with their scams and other financial crimes, the more arrogant they became. One evening in February 1980, while they were staying at the swanky Mayflower Hotel in D.C. shantae and Kenneth conspired to steal a woman's mink coat from the lobby. Multiple witnesses saw Shantae grab the coat when the woman wasn't looking, and they reported it to the police. Since Shantae and Kenneth had been socializing with other guests at the hotel bar, people knew which room the Kimes were staying in. Officers searched the room and found the coat balled up behind an ice machine. Shantae and Kenneth were both arrested and charged with grand theft larceny. They posted bail and returned to Las Vegas. For the next five years, they delayed their trial by firing and rehiring a series of lawyers or by citing medical issues. During that time period, they made another big move as well. In 1981, Shantay and Kenneth finally got married. It's possible they did this so they wouldn't have to testify against each other, but they had no idea that federal authorities had already been talking to another witness in relation to an even worse crime. Shantae was about to be thrust into a downward spiral, and once that happened, her killer tendencies would finally come out.

E (43:05)

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F (43:35)

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B (44:06)

Hey Crime House Community. I'm Carter Roy, the host of True Crime Stories Stories. If you listen to True crime because you want more than just what happened, this show is for you. On Murder True Crime Stories, we take deep dives into history's most notorious murders. But we don't stop at the crime scene. We look beyond the headlines to understand the real story and the people who are impacted the most. Because these cases aren't just mysteries, they're all lives, families, communities that were changed forever. Whether a case is solved or unsolved, my goal is for you to walk away understanding why these stories still matter and why they deserve to be told with care. Each episode explores the darkest corners of true crime while keeping the focus where it belongs on the human cost. If you're already part the of of the crime house community, true crime stories is a natural. Next Listen New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday beginning January 16th. New episodes will also drop every Friday. Follow Murder True crime stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

A (45:27)

In the mid-1980s, Shantae and Kenneth Kimes geared up for their grand larceny trial in in Washington, D.C. at the same time, federal authorities were building another case against them. One of Shantae's former maids who'd managed to escape, had gone to the police and told them how Shantae was holding women captive and abusing them. Now authorities were hard at work building a slavery case against her and Kenneth. The couple was being tried separately in the grand larceny case, so when Shantae, who was now 50, finally entered the courtroom for that trial in July 1985, Kenneth stayed in the apartment they'd been renting in the D.C. area. Meanwhile, on the other side of the country, FBI agents working on the slavery case made a huge move. They raided Shantae and Kenneth's home in Las Vegas. Inside the house, they found enough evidence to issue a warrant for Shantae and Kenneth's arrests. But authorities on the East Coast Post didn't seem to get the message. On July 18, Shantae was found guilty of grand larceny. However, before their sentencing hearing took place, the couple fled. Now there were two warrants out for their arrests. Shantae and Kenneth rented a condo in San Diego where they planned to lay low until they could figure out their next move. However, they didn't cover their tracks well enough and a couple weeks ago later, on August 3, authorities closed in on the condo and arrested Shantae and Kenneth. They were both charged with slavery. Kenneth was allowed to plead to lesser charges and pay a fine, but Shantae was eventually convicted of 14 total counts of slaveholding and illegal transporting and one count of escaping custody. She was sentenced to five years in a high security federal prison. After that, she was finally sentenced to three to nine years for the grand larceny conviction to be served after her five year sentence. For once, Shantae was finally facing the music.

C (47:30)

Prison is a very difficult Environment to adjust to for anyone, but definitely for anyone accustomed to having full control, autonomy, and frankly, a lifestyle like hers. Because prison strips away all of that. Suddenly Shantae is the one being told what to do, where to go and when to. All of her luxuries are gone. And it can also be a very disruptive environment for someone with antisocial or narcissistic traits, at least at first, because it strips away the ways in which they maintained their power. Especially in her situation where she now loses control over her work, her son, and her entire enterprise. She's now in an environment where she is under the control of others. And that's a huge dynamic shift for her. Now, some individuals in her position and with her personality structure completely destabilize. But others adapt by finding ways to establish new hierarchies, new social systems, and opportunities for exploitation and manipulation, because those are plentiful in a prison environment. I've seen that happen on small and very large scales when I used to work in them.

A (48:35)

Do you think someone like Shantae could see themselves as a victim in this situation?

C (48:40)

More than likely, yes. Especially if there are strong narcissistic traits. She might reframe it. As if the system is rigged or corrupt, she was being charged unfairly or the judge was biased. These are tactics that are intended to protect the ego and avoid the reality that they are in fact the cause of the harm. But also viewing herself as the victim means maintaining a sense of superiority. This means that if she's the wronged party, then she doesn't have to admit that she's been betrayed or outsmarted by anyone.

A (49:09)

So while Shante was behind bars, her world kept turning without her. Kenneth and Kenny lived alone in the Las Vegas house. Kenneth, now in his 70s, chose not to rehire his son's tutors, which meant Kenny, who was now 12, was going to school with other children for the first time. It seemed to be the happiest the young boy had ever been. Kenneth let him invite friends over to swim and play. And he excelled in school. Now and then they visited Shantae in prison. But their bond was deepening without her in their lives every day. Then in 1989, 55 year old Shantae was paroled after serving three years of her five year sentence. She wouldn't have to serve her second sentence either. But when she returned home, it wasn't to the warm welcome she'd been hoping for. Shantae quickly realized how happy and independent Kenny had become while she was gone, and she resented it. She forced him to transfer schools, forbade him from seeing his friends, and regained control over every aspect of his life. The constant upheaval returned, too. The Kimes moved from house to house, just like they did before Shantae went to prison. Kenneth rarely stood up to Shantae, which meant Kenny had to look out for himself. Just like his older half brother, Kent, he left home as soon as he could. After graduating from from high school in 1993, he enrolled at the University of California in Santa Barbara. At first, Kenny enjoyed the typical life of a college student. But in March 1994, everything changed when Kenneth died of an aneurysm. After Kenneth's death, Shantae reviewed his will and made a shocking discovery. He had left his entire estate to his two children from from his first marriage. Shantae and Kenny were left with nothing. Rather than accept that, Shantae simply refused to acknowledge it. First, she used a made up Social Security number on Kenneth's death certificate. Then, when dealing with banks, she used false documents to pretend he was still alive. All while hiding much of his wealth from his other kids and keeping it for herself. Kenny, who was devastated by the loss of his father, was now at the mercy of his mother. In even more since she controlled the money, he had to do whatever she wanted, or else she could cut him off. Kenny returned to college, but Shantae visited him often, and friends noticed that she always slept in his room. They also overheard the two of them having frequent explosive arguments. Even when she wasn't visiting, Shantae kept a tight rein on Kenny. She disapproved of anyone he dated, dated, monitored his spending, and refused to let him do anything without asking her first. Soon, the constant pressure caused Kenny to unravel. And in late 1995, another student filed a complaint against him, alleging that he'd become verbally abusive to her. By shouting derogatory names at her during an argument, Kenny had burned all his bridges. Finally, in the spring of 1996, he dropped out of college and moved back in with Shantae. Before long, they were inseparable.

C (52:29)

So what you're describing is pathological enmeshment. And that's what I was discussing earlier. And it's rooted in her own attachment wounds, her personality structure and fear of abandonment. Seeing Kenny thriving without her was a threat, especially after she came out of prison. She feared his independence because it meant losing him, which is why she desperately controlled for it. She needed to be the center of his universe. And after Kenneth D. That need intensified. Kenny was the only person she had Left to manipulate, rely on, and mold, controlling him became both emotional survival and practical strategy. Without him, she had no access to resources, no validation, and no partner in the schemes that she'd soon return to her control over her son. It wasn't about love. It was about possession.

A (53:21)

Why do you think Shantae's control and manipulation tactics eventually worked on Kenny? And what are the risks associated with this kind of controlling relationship between a mother with criminal tendencies and her son?

C (53:34)

So it worked. For a few major reasons. First, Shantae had been shaping Kenny's worldview since he was a child. Remember, she controlled what he learned, who he had access to, and what values he was exposed to, Essentially creating her own closed ecosystem around him. He grew up in constant instability, always moving, always isolated, which forced him to rely on her both emot emotionally and physically. And that pattern didn't stop when he became an adult. And when his father died, Kenny was already vulnerable. He was in college, he was grieving and suddenly dependent on Shantae for financial support and direction. She controlled the money, the documents, and the resources he needed just to stay afloat. That alone puts a young adult in a compromising position with a mother like Shantae. But socially, she was just as disruptive. She was intrusive. And she had a lack of boundaries that made it nearly impossible for Catholic to form healthy friendships or romantic relationships. And any connection he'd made, she undermined. The chaos she created was isolating him. And over time, that likely taught him that relationships are temporary. But Shantae is constant, and that dynamic is incredibly dangerous. Shantae deprived Kenny of the opportunity to form his own identity and to make independent judgments or develop moral autonomy. Instead, she kept him wrapped in instability and increasingly exposed him to her criminal. And this is exactly how criminality can run in families. It's not because it's inherited or genetic. It's because it's modeled. It's normalized and reinforced through dependency and control.

A (55:13)

Well, shortly after Kenny dropped out of college, Shantae roped him into her next big scheme. She'd made a big discovery. Kenneth had an offshore bank account in the Bahamas, A tax haven where he'd been sheltering hundreds of thousands of dollars. Dollars. Once Shantae found out about the account, she wanted to get her hands on the money. She'd faxed the bank some documents with Kenneth's forged signature, asking them to transfer the funds into a new account that she had set up under a false name. But the problem account investigator at the bank in the Bahamas, who was named Syed Bilal Ahmed was likely suspicious and blocked the transaction. That's where Kenny came came in. Shantae asked him to travel with her to the Bahamas so they could settle the matter in person. But Shantae didn't just want to meet with Syed. Allegedly, she had much more sinister plans. According to a later confession, here's what happened. On the evening of September 4, 1996, Shantae and Kenny met Syed at a restaurant for dinner. They discussed the matter of Kenneth's account. However, Shantae didn't bother getting too hung up on the details of her story, because all she needed was to be near Syed. Once they were at the table together finishing up their meal, she and Kenny slipped something into Syed's drink when he wasn't looking. As they walked out of the restaurant, Syed began to lose consciousness, and Shantay and Kenny put him into their car. Then they drove to the beachfront house they'd rented and brought him inside to the bathroom. The bathtub was already filled when they put Syed's head underwater and held him there until he drowned. Within minutes, Syed was dead. Shantae and Kenny dragged his body down to the beach and dumped him into the ocean. Then they took all the documents Syed had related to Kenneth's account and fled.

C (57:11)

What stands out here is how quickly Shantae and Kenny were willing to cross the line into murder. For Shantae, the motivation beyond financial. Since we know that's been a big motivating factor for her, it's pretty straightforward. She'd spent her entire life manipulating people, exploiting them, and using crime as a way to get what she wanted. Violence was simply another tool for her. By this point, she'd developed a belief system where other people's lives carried no weight compared to her own needs. She was convicted of slavery. Already, there is clearly an absence of empathy, the prioritizing of personal gain and the ability to justify harm if it serves a goal. For Kenny, the psychology is more complicated. He didn't start out this way. As far as we know, he wasn't torturing neighborhood kids or animals. By age 10, he was shaped into this. Years of isolation, enmeshment and dependence on his mother meant he learned to adopt her values and her logic. He grew up without stable moral modeling, without autonomy, and under the constant pressure to please her. In that state, they don't ask whether something is right or wrong. They ask what they should do, and they follow what they're told. It's also worth noting that Kenny, although legally an adult, is still under the age of 25 when this happened. Meaning his frontal lobe wasn't fully developed yet. That's the part of the brain responsible for judgment, impulse control and long term decision making. So his reasoning was shaped not only by years of psychological control from his mother, but also by the development of developmental stage he was in. This isn't a justification by any means, just an explanation of why he may have been more vulnerable to her influence.

A (58:52)

Do you think this was just about the money for Shantae? Or do you think part of it was, I mean, bringing her son into a murder, Is that also about having something to hold over Kenny's head?

C (59:02)

I think it's likely both. I mean, Shantae was always financially driven, but involving Kenny gave her leverage. Once he participated in a crime this serious, their bond became irre. And that's a classic tactic in coercive relationships. If you want someone to stay, you make sure they feel trapped. By pulling Kenny into this, she guaranteed that he was tied to her legally, emotionally, financially and psychologically. He couldn't walk away without risking everything. So while the money mattered to her, certainly we know that just by a pattern of behavior that she has that's been longstanding. The control she gained over Kenny may have mattered just as much, if not more.

A (59:45)

Now that Shantae and Kenny had committed the ultimate crime together, there was absolutely no going back. They were tied together more closely than ever. And that's exactly how Shantae liked it. After that, they made their way to Florida, where they would figure out what to do next. Meanwhile, when Syed failed to show up to work the next morning, police started searching for him. But there was no sign of what happened. It was like he disappeared off the face of the earth. Syed Bilal Ahmed's body was never found. Years went by before anyone learned the truth of what happened. When that day came, Shantae and Kenny Kimes had left a string of violent crimes in their wake. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for part two of our deep dive into Shantae Kimes. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media. Rimehouse. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. Ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzofsky, Sarah Camp, Heather Dundas, Sarah Tardiff and Carrie Murphy. Of the many sources we used when research this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful was they Call Them grifters by Alice McQuillan thank you for listening.

G (62:03)

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A (62:36)

Looking for your next listen? Hi, it's Vanessa Richardson and I have exciting news. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is level starting the week of January 12th. You'll be getting two episodes every week. Wednesdays we unravel the conspiracy or the cult and on Fridays we look at a corresponding crime. Follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen.

G (63:07)

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