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- [00:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi, it's Vanessa Richardson. Crime House is home to the best true crime shows and you don't want to miss the latest episode of Murder True Crime Stories. Carter Roy is looking into the mysterious unsolved case of the Boy in the Box. In one of America's most haunting mysteries, the body of a young boy was discovered in a box in 1957. Join Carter Roy as he walks you through the story. Listen to and follow True Crime Stories every Tuesday and Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Sports Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [00:41]
Dr. Tristan Engels
This is Crime House.
- [00:46]
Vanessa Richardson
Childhood is a time of discovery. Everything is exciting and new. A chance to learn something for yourself that includes testing boundaries. Usually it's something relatively harmless, like watching an off limits movie or getting into a little fight at school. Regardless, most of this childhood mischief usually ends with being grounded. But Jesse Pomeroy's brand of rebellion was far beyond any of that. In 1872, by the time Jesse was 12 years old, Boston police were already investigating him for a string of brutal attacks on young boys. He he wasn't just causing trouble. He was luring kids into terrifying, violent situations that left them broken, bleeding and barely alive. And when Jesse's community tried to make sense of it all, his violence only escalated. Until eventually his attacks turned deadly. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [02:15]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And I'm Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.
- [02:23]
Vanessa Richardson
Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review and follow Killer Minds to enhance your listening experience with ad. Free early access to each two part series and bonus content. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Before we get started, be advised this episode contains descriptions of violence against children. Listener discretion is advised. Today we begin our deep dive on Jesse Pomeroy, a boy from Boston who showed troubling signs of violence from a young age, before he was even a teenager. The darkness within him put every child in Jesse's community at risk.
- [03:05]
Dr. Tristan Engels
As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like what could drive such a young person to commit violent acts. How someone's upbringing can influence their concept of right and wrong. And how even a young child can learn to manipul those around them.
- [03:21]
Vanessa Richardson
And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?
- [03:30]
Kristen Bell
Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband Dax, then You also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.
- [03:37]
Dr. Tristan Engels
We're really doing this, huh?
- [03:38]
Kristen Bell
Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your van or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.
- [03:49]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Goodbye, Truckee.
- [03:50]
Kristen Bell
Of course, we kept the favorite.
- [03:54]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Hello, other Truckee.
- [03:55]
Kristen Bell
Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply.
- [04:00]
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- [04:36]
Vanessa Richardson
In the mid-1800s, Boston was a growing industrial city. It was gritty, crowded and bursting with immigrants and working class families just trying to get by. The Charlestown neighborhood, with its shipyards and factories, was particularly rough. This was the environment that Jesse Pomeroy was born into on November 29, 1859. For most of Jesse's early years, the Pomeroys were on the edge of poverty. They shared a home with another family, and his parents struggled to put food on the table for Jesse and his older brother, Charles. His mother, Ruth, took on sewing jobs, but his father, Thomas, was a heavy drinker and found it hard to get steady work. He bounced between jobs, going from being a firefighter and a wagon driver to pumping water at the local navy yard. But despite Thomas struggles, the family eventually managed to improve their circumstances. By the time Jesse was around 10 years old, they'd moved into a nicer home in Charlestown that they had all to themselves. But that didn't solve all their problems, especially not for Jesse. At school, he was bullied, largely because of his appearance. One of his eyes had a milky white film that covered his entire iris. If you ask Jesse what happened, he'd tell you it was from a tragic fishing accident. In reality, it was believed to have been the result of a bad reaction to an 1800s childhood vaccine. But even with the bullying, going to school was better than being at home. Throughout Jesse's childhood, his father's drinking got progressively worse and he became abusive. Once, after finding out Jesse had skipped School, Thomas dragged him outside and hit him with a horsewhip. These kinds of beatings became frequent and brutal, and it seemed they were all Jesse could think about. He started asking his classmates how they were punished at home to try and make sense of what his father was doing to him. When he would tell his peers about his own experiences. There was something unsettling about the way he described his father's attacks. It was almost like he took pride in the pain.
- [06:55]
Dr. Tristan Engels
What we know from research is that early trauma, especially repeated trauma in the context of caregiving, can dysregulate the developing brain. Children who are chronically bullied or abused often developed heightened threat per. They learn to anticipate harm even when it's not there. And this is particularly dangerous when combined with poor emotional regulation, which is common in maltreated children. Now, does that automatically turn someone into a killer? No, not at all. Plenty of children are bullied or abused, and they never go on to hurt anyone. But in Jesse's case, we see the cycle of violence, a pattern where victims of violence, particularly in childhood, go on to perpetrate it. And it's something I used to teach to incarcerated adults in maximum security prison because it's to understand the cycle of violence in order to break that cycle. Violence and abuse are learned behaviors. But when we talk about victimization becoming perpetration, we have to be cautious, because the majority of abuse survivors do not go on to harm others. But when a child is isolated, brutalized, and potentially predisposed to violence like Jesse was, there's definitely an elevated risk. And tragically, it often begins young.
- [08:07]
Vanessa Richardson
Is it possible that Jesse might have seen the beatings from his father as the only real connection they shared? Maybe like a twisted form of bonding?
- [08:15]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It's disturbing, but yes, it's entirely possible that Jesse saw his father's meetings as the only consistent interaction they even had in children who are abused by a parent, especially in emotionally cold homes. Because, remember, Jesse's dad was an alcoholic, so he's not emotionally present any form of attention, even violent attention can be internalized as a kind of connection. He might have established a trauma bond with his father. And when a child is dependent on a caregiver for food, shelter, survival, but that caregiver is also a source of pain, the child's brain adapts to that contradiction. It becomes safer psychologically to interpret the abuse as meaningful rather than random, because to accept that your parent is hurting you out of cruelty or indifference is far more terrifying, especially for children. And we. We can see that Jesse is trying to establish meaning to it by inquiring with his friends and then responding with pride.
- [09:14]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, if there was any silver lining to Jesse's situation, it was that his mother did her best to protect him and his brother Charles. In the summer of 1871, when Jesse was 11, Ruth sent her sons to visit her siblings in Maine. For Jesse, the trip was a happy one. The vacation made his life feel normal and enjoyable. But it would likely be the last time he felt that way because Ruth had an ulterior motive for organizing the trip. While her boys were away on vacation, Ruth was plotting an escape from her abusive alcoholic husband. She'd been the one holding the family together for years, supporting them with her sewing, while Thomas drifted from job to job, drinking himself into a stupor. By the time the boys came home at the end of the summer, Ruth had officially separated from Thomas. She stayed with the children in the family's home in Charlestown while he moved out. Jesse's father had abused him for years, so the distance from his dad was theoretically a positive development. But Jesse seemed to take his parents divorce very hard and began to isolate himself. He immersed himself in a world of books and imagination. For anyone else, this may have been a good thing. But the kinds of stories Jesse was drawn to were troubling. Jesse liked something called dime novels. Think of them as an 1800s version of a clickbait thriller. These cheap books were packed with stories of outlaws, kidnappings, killings and revenge. The more brutal, the better. Jesse became obsessed with these violent stories and they started influencing other areas of his life While playing make believe with his friends. Everyone else pretended to be heroes like Daniel Boone or Buffalo Bill, But Jesse idolized a man named Simon Gertie. A real life frontiersman with a dark legacy. Gertie was known for leading violent raids during the Revolutionary war and torturing his enemies.
- [11:18]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So Jesse's interest in and exposure to violence is not new, as we've established. But immersing himself in these books and fantasy play is new. And it's happening right after the separation of his parents, which is a very destabilizing event, especially back then. If Jesse had a trauma bond with his abusive father and he was separated from him without warning or even explanation, that can feel like abandonment and betrayal. This can cause grief, confusion and panic. Some children blame themselves. Others turn inward. Some engage in repetition compulsion, which is recreating unresolved trauma scenarios in an attempt to gain control over them. And others romanticize their abuser. It's possible that this may be adjacent to what Jesse is doing. Jesse is leaning into characters that represent his father, characters that dominate, humiliate, and destroy their enemies. These weren't just random preferences. They were coping mechanisms and a way to maintain an arguably distorted sense of connection or stability. These stories depicted a world where violence wasn't unpredictable and terrifying like his father's reportedly was. It was purposeful and even heroic in Jesse's eyes. A lot of parents today worry about the content their children are consuming, especially after major life stressors like divorce, a move, or school bullying. The reality is, the majority of the time, kids don't internalize violence just because they see it. And this is especially true of children who are receiving emotional support or connection at home or at school. Jesse was lacking that in both environments.
- [12:56]
Vanessa Richardson
It feels like the warning signs were there. Jesse was reading these violent books, idolizing an infamous violent person. If Jesse had been an adult, I feel like people would have probably been concerned. Why is it easier to miss these violent signs in kids?
- [13:12]
Dr. Tristan Engels
That's such a good question. First, we tend to associate children with innocence, even when they act out. Often people rationalize it in some way. They might refer to it as a phase or imagination, even attention seeking. There's also a cultural reluctance, even among professionals to believe that a child could be intentionally cruel, manipulative, or calculating. Second, lots of kids during development go through stages where they fixate on something. Dinosaurs, wars, even horror stories. And in healthy children with support and boundaries, it's harmless. It's natural for them to be curious. But when that intensity gets paired with isolation, emotional flatness, or cruelty to animals or peers, that's when there is cause for concern. With Jesse, the signs were there, like you said. And specifically, no one intervened, least of all early enough. So when we talk about prevention, we have to be willing to see what's hard to look at or to admit. Not every troubled kid becomes violent. But most violent children were once a child in trouble, and getting to them early is really crucial.
- [14:22]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, Jesse's fascination with the sadistic dime novels and his interest in torture weren't just childish quirks he'd eventually grow out of. Instead, they became something he grew into. After his parents split, Jesse's line between fantasy and reality started to blur. He seemed to wonder what it would be like to actually inflict the kind of pain he'd been reading about. So far, he hadn't acted on these thoughts because he was still aware they were wrong. But four months after his parents separated, something in Jesse shifted. When it did, he finally found a release for the violence building inside him. And the results were catastrophic.
- [15:11]
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- [15:42]
Vanessa Richardson
In late December 1871, Boston was covered in snow. Most kids across the city were getting in the holiday spirit by counting down the days until Christmas. But 12 year old Jesse Pomeroy had much darker things on his mind. The violent stories in his beloved dime novels were still enjoyable, but the thrill they'd initially given him was starting to fade now. Jesse wasn't content just reading about torture. He wanted to actually do it to someone else. Once Jesse decided this, he quickly found his first known victim, a smaller boy named Robert. We don't know much about Robert or why Jesse chose him. But we do know that Robert was young enough to trust a fellow kid without thinking twice. Jesse used that to his advantage. One day he convinced Robert to follow him to Powderhorn Hill, a quiet secluded spot in the Boston suburb of Chelsea. The location was intentional. It was relatively close to where Jesse lived in Charlestown, but also isolated enough that no one would hear Robert scream. When the two of them arrived on the hill, Jesse jumped on Robert before tying him up and gagging him. Once the little boy was secured, Jesse proceeded to whip Robert repeatedly. While Jesse was doing this, he became almost euphoric. He started laughing, dancing and even jumping around. It was like he was so thrilled with himself, he couldn't contain his excitement.
- [17:18]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So Jesse's crossed that line from rehearsal into reality. And there are a few factors here that would cause him to do that. First, Jesse likely experienced violent ideation with increasing behavioral rehears. He wasn't just reading these books, he was identifying with aggressors. When these fantasies aren't addressed and there's no healthy attachment, no empathy and no intervention, they build up and then there's opportunity. And Jesse was methodical. He chose someone smaller and trusting. He chose a location that was just far enough from home to be safe for him, but not safe for his victim. And that shows planning, impulse control and confidence. And then the euphoria. This actually tracks with how the brain works in some individuals with early callous on emotional traits or emerging psychopathy. When someone like Jesse acts on a violent urge, especially for the first time, it can trigger a Flood of neurochemical rewards. We're talking adrenaline, dopamine, and endorphins. And for most people, those chemicals get released during joy or achievement, for example. But in someone like Jesse, that same flood can happen during acts of cruelty, which in his brain, he's associating this act as an achievement, but it's a cruel one. So for Jesse, it was a first success. And once a person feels rewarded for violence like that, emotionally or chemically, the desire to do it again rises dramatically.
- [18:44]
Vanessa Richardson
Once Jesse had gotten his fill of violence, he put the badly injured Robert on a sled and dragged the boy home where he left him. Then Jesse returned to his own house, and the next day, he went back to his normal routine like nothing happened. Nobody knew what he'd done to Robert. Although the little boy recovered from the attack, it seems like he didn't recognize Jesse, or maybe he was too afraid to identify him. Either way, Jesse was in the clear, and he was eager to do it again. In February 1872, just a couple of months after attacking Robert, Jesse lured a young boy named Tracy to the same hill. Then he proceeded to carry out another attack that was almost identical to what he'd done to Robert. When it was over, Jesse brought Tracy down the hill and dropped him off by his home. And once again, Jesse got away with it, which was very bad news for the children of Boston. Five months later, in July, Jesse struck again. He approached a younger boy named John, and he said he knew a man who'd give him a quarter to run a quick errand. He to John, it sounded like easy money. So he followed Jesse to Powderhorn Hill, and there Jesse once again attacked and brutally beat his victim. In the middle of it all, John managed to ask Jesse why he was doing this. Jesse replied, quote, the man told me to do it.
- [20:17]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So Jesse's definitely showing a pattern of escalating behaviors. But what is most alarming is how young he is and how young his victims are. His brain is still developing, particularly the areas involved in impulse control, empathy, and ability to do cost benefit analysis. But instead of outgrowing aggression like most children do, Jesse was growing into it. He was becoming more organized, more calculated, and more detached. And at 12 years old, his pattern of behavior is eerily similar to most adult serial offenders. Many adult offenders start with non lethal attacks like assaults, arson, cruelty to animals, or stalking. But typically they start in late teens to early, early twenties. Jesse is on an accelerated path that goes beyond conduct disorder and into the realm of sadism and juvenile psychopathy.
- [21:09]
Vanessa Richardson
This was the first time we've actually heard Jesse say anything about why he was doing what he was doing. And I have to ask, what could Jesse possibly have meant when he told John? The man told me to do it.
- [21:20]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It could be a lie. It could be a delusion. It could also be an indication of auditory command hallucinations. But given his age and the level of functioning compared to the typical age of onset for most individuals with psychosis, although possible, it's not likely it's any of those things. What's more likely, especially at this age, is that he's projecting or externalizing blame. That's something we often see in young perpetrators who haven't yet fully integrated their own actions with their sense of self. It could also have been something he saw his own father do when he was abusing Jesse and his family. And therefore it's another learned or modeled behavior. And what I mean by that is maybe his father and even his mother externalized or projected blame elsewhere for his father's abusive behaviors. And so now Jesse is modeling those same things.
- [22:11]
Vanessa Richardson
When Jesse had finished with John, he didn't drag the boy out of sight or drop him off near his home like he'd done with his previous victims. Instead, Jesse simply walked away, leaving John bruised, bloodied, and barely able to move. It's possible Jesse wondered if or hoped the young boy would die and become his first murder victim.
- [22:35]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So what's really interesting here is that he is hoping to have a first murder victim but not actually killing anyone at the same time. So he has restraint. There is something, at least at this point, that is keeping him from actually killing someone. That could be that sadism is the driving factor here, but also it could go back to his age. His brain is still developing like I've already addressed, and he's limit testing to understand how far he can actually go.
- [23:03]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, thankfully, John was able to get help, and he survived his wounds after receiving medical attention from a doctor. And this time, the assault didn't go unnoticed. John's injuries were covered extensively by the local papers, and the neighborhood was in an uproar. John wasn't able to identify Jesse, so the Police announced a $1,000 reward for the person responsible for his be an eye popping amount of money at a time when a loaf of bread cost just a nickel. Jesse's first two victims had possibly seemed like one off incidents, but the attack on John made it clear there was a pattern emerging, one that was likely the work of the same perpetrator. But as people began the hunt for a deranged CHILD torturer the attacks stopped and the trail went cold. That's because Jesse no longer lived in Charlestown. In August 1872, just a month after he attacked John, Ruth moved with Jesse and his brother Charles to South Boston, where she planned to open a sewing shop. Officially it was a business move, but there may have been more to it than that. Even though Ruth always maintained that Jesse was a good boy, it's possible she'd heard about the string of attacks and and deep down wondered if her son was involved. Maybe she hoped a change of scenery would allow them all to get a fresh start. If that was Ruth's intention, it didn't work. Instead of leaving the violence behind, Jesse took it with him. Almost as soon as he arrived in his new neighborhood, the attacks picked up again, and this time they were even more brutal. In mid August, 12 year old Jesse lured a 7 year old boy into a boathouse where he savagely beat and bit him. Then, just a few weeks later, he cornered a six year old in an isolated spot near a train bridge and stabbed him. In both cases, the children survived Jesse's assaults. But by now it was clear these attacks weren't random outbursts. They were evolving. Each one was more ferocious than the last, and Jesse wasn't slowing down. A few days after attacking the six year old, Jesse cornered a kid named Joseph in another boathouse and hurt him with a knife before pouring salt on his wounds. Less than a week after that, Jesse struck again. He managed to lure a boy named Charles to an isolated railroad track after telling him that they were going to see some soldiers. Once they were alone, Jesse tied Charles to a post near the track and cut him seven times, only stopping when he heard another person coming towards them.
- [25:53]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It's not random that Jesse is exclusively targeting boys at this point, because Jesse was a small, pale and physically different boy and he'd been relentlessly bullied for those traits. Choosing smaller boys allowed him to reverse that script. These weren't just convenient victims, they were symbolic. They likely gave Jesse the feeling of strength that he'd been denied. And boys, especially back then, were raised to be tough, stoic and pro. Hurting them may have offered an extra layer of psychological dominance, but also there's mirroring behavior happening. Many child offenders, especially those with early trauma, will recreate aspects of their own abuse. So there's always the possibility that Jesse was acting out a power imbalance that he experienced with his own father. But his continued escalation of behaviors is getting more gruesome and sadistic. And it tells us that Jesse's internal inhibition system, the psychological breaks that most of us have, is either severe, severely underdeveloped, even at this age, or entirely overridden by the thrill of control. And at this point, he let each of his victims go and still got away with it. That's reinforcing this even more. Overall, the escalation and the attacks themselves indicate that Jesse's losing the ability to separate thought from action. His fantasy now requires a victim.
- [27:16]
Vanessa Richardson
Is that true psychopathy or. Or could it just be the result of an underdeveloped brain that had the wrong influences? And is there a difference?
- [27:25]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It seems likely that it's a bit of both. But let's start with psychopathy. Clinically, that's characterized by traits like shallow affect, lack of empathy, lack of remorse, deceitfulness, manipulation, and callousness. Though there are many more traits for psychopathy, those are more of the hallmark ones. As psychologists, we use tools to assess those traits in clinical or forensic settings. But in children, it gets murkier because the brain is still developing, the personality isn't fully formed, and kids go through stages, some of them disturbing, and they don't always predict who they'll become. So because of that, we can assess for juvenile psychopathy traits to determine future risk, but we can't ethically label a child as a psychopath. Now, there's strong evidence that psychopathy has a genetic and neurological component, such as abnormalities in the amygdala, reduced emotional reactivity, and poor fear conditioning. But the environment shapes expression, so you can have the wiring, but without the right, like fuel. In Jesse's case, it would be trauma, neglect, lack of intervention. It's possible that that will never progress. And that's the key difference between psychopathy and developmental immaturity. Most kids with underdeveloped empathy eventually grow out of it, especially if they're given love, structure, and consequences. Jesse didn't outgrow his cruelty. He grew into it. He escalated, and that's what sets him apart.
- [28:55]
Vanessa Richardson
With so many attacks piling up, Jesse couldn't stand her the radar forever. Charles survived and ended up going to the police about his attack and finally gave the authorities a description of his attacker. Even though Jesse had hurt at least seven kids by this point, Charles was the first to take tell the police about his distinctive, milky white eye. But that detail alone wasn't what led to Jesse's arrest. What actually got him caught was a bizarre coincidence. In September of 1872, about a week after torturing Charles, Jesse was walking past a police station when he stopped to peek through a window inside. One of his previous victims, Joseph, was talking with police. Joseph saw Jesse in the window and immediately recognized him. Even though Jesse fled. Officers later showed up at his home in South Boston and arrested him. After he was taken to the police station, three of Jesse's victims positively ID'd him as their attacker. When 12 year old Jesse appeared before a judge the next day, he discovered the police believed he was responsible for six of the seven assaults he'd committed over the last 10 months. Jesse confessed to every single one of them. When he was asked to provide a reason for torturing the boys, his reply was just a vague I don't know. Jesse was a minor and hadn't killed any of his victims, so his sentence wasn't particularly severe. He was sent to a juvenile delinquent banquet reform school just outside of Boston, where he was supposed to stay until he turned 18. But Jesse wouldn't be there for that long. Soon he would be out, and this time, it seems he was determined not to leave any more witnesses behind.
- [30:52]
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- [31:23]
Vanessa Richardson
In September 1872, at just 12 years old, Jesse Pomeroy was sent to an all boys reform school in Westboro, Massachusetts. At the time, the school served as a juvenile detention center for around 300 boys with the goal of reforming them through discipline, education, and future job training. Most of the boys at Westboro had been found guilty of petty crimes like theft. Jesse was one of the only miners in the facility convicted of assault with a knife. And Jesse stood out from the rest of the boys in other ways, too. He didn't drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, two habits that were common among kids at Westboro. Additionally, most of the other boys had experienced far tougher childhoods than Jesse. True, he'd had problems with his dad, but Ruth had kicked Thomas to the curb and did her best to raise Jesse in a loving home home. Also, most of the other kids had a history of acting out in obvious disruptive ways. But Jesse wasn't like that. He didn't throw tantrums or start fights. On the surface, he was polite, well behaved and smart. And while Jesse didn't have a lot of friends, those who actually knew him didn't think of him as a troublemaker.
- [32:41]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Jesse is a covert offender, and that's someone whose pathology doesn't present in a loud, disruptive ways, but instead hides behind a mask of intelligence and self control. This is something we see in certain kinds of emerging, callous, unemotional profiles, and especially when the child is cognitively intact. Now, callous on emotional profiles are what we use to describe children or adolescents with traits like lack of empathy, guilt or remorse, along with shallow or limited range of emotion. Because they're children, we can't label them with a personality disorder. Jesse wasn't chaotic. He wasn't unpredictable. He was strategic. He knew how to play the part. That shows early manipulative awareness and an ability to regulate behavior just enough to avoid scrutiny. And that's dangerous because adults often mistake it for improvement or even rehabilitation.
- [33:33]
Vanessa Richardson
What was it about Jesse's mind that allowed him to come off as a normal, well rounded child when his true self was so much darker? Is it that he was just a master manipulator?
- [33:44]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yes. But I think Jesse's manipulation was more instinctive than tactical. It wasn't like a polished con. It was more survival. Because he'd learned very early on that if he kept his head down, spoke politely, and mimicked social norms, he could fly under the radar. And in some kids with callous, unemotional traits or emerging psychopathy, this is surprisingly common. His ability to compartmentalize, to present one version of himself while hiding the other, is actually a red flag. In forensic settings, we call it emotional masking. So, yes, Jesse was a manipulator. I mean, he was able to lure children to certain locations and, and, you know, obviously compartmentalized, but only in this setting. He didn't need to charm anyone. It's not like he was trying to be cunning. He just needed to be forgettable, polite and harmless. And this will be rewarded, which will likely reinforce this behavior.
- [34:40]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, Jesse was definitely convincing. During his time at Westboro, he never got into trouble or needed to be disciplined. He also moved up the ranks of the school's daily job. He started off making chairs, then got promoted to taking care of the dorm rooms, and eventually landed a job in the kitchen helping to cook meals. Most of the staff was convinced by Jesse's good behavior. But not everyone was so easily swayed. One Westboro teacher named Laura Clark believed something was deeply wrong with Jesse. Just days after he arrived at the facility, she walked into a room, that room, and found him there alone with another boy. The other boy was upset and crying over something Jesse had done or said to him. What exactly happened between the two isn't clear, but Jesse's reaction said plenty. When Laura asked him what was going on, he allegedly grabbed a knife and told her that he, quote, wasn't afraid of anybody. The same teacher also claimed she once saw Jesse kill a snake on school grounds. She said that Jesse stomped, jumped, and beat the animal over and over, long after it was clearly dead. To her, it looked like Jesse had gotten excited over the violence and that he seemed to have a strange urge to see the animal's blood.
- [36:00]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Let's talk about what's really happening here. Jesse was emotionally flat most of the time. He was controlled, quiet, even withdrawn. But inside, he was still likely dealing with a buildup of psychological pressure. For someone like him, violence wasn't just an outlet. It was an emotional release. That's why when he couldn't act out against other children publicly, we see him turn to animals or corner others in private. But the most disturbing thing this tells us is that Jesse didn't simply lose control when he hurt someone. He actually sought it out. He was careful about it and even exercised control. What's also revealing is how quickly he escalates when confronted. Laura walks in, and Jesse, instead of backing down or trying to explain, grabs a knife and makes a threat and once again seeks to assert dominance. It also indicates how undeterred he is by any consequences, because this is happening while in reformed school.
- [36:59]
Vanessa Richardson
Even though Laura knew something was wrong with Jesse, the other staff considered him a model student. While other boys at Westboro were constantly scrutinized and disciplined, Jesse managed to fly under the radar, convincing the adults he'd turned a corner, when in reality, he was just getting better at playing the part.
- [37:19]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Heart.
- [37:20]
Vanessa Richardson
It's also possible Jesse had another reason for behaving. He may have known that if he acted out, he would be subjected to the same kind of violence he'd inflicted on his own victims. Many of the boys at Westboro would later speak out about the abuse they suffered at the hands of the staff there. Some described being stripped naked and beaten until they could barely move. Others told stories of having been severely malnourished and only fed bread and water. Some said they were even regular, forced into a locked box not much bigger than a casket, where they'd be held for days as a form of punishment.
- [37:58]
Dr. Tristan Engels
If this is true, then Jesse likely knew or witnessed the abuse, so he defaulted to self preservation mode. I think most of us would. But what's more psychologically disturbing is that if he witnessed adults Inflicting violence on children, something that he himself does and has experienced by his father. It likely strengthened his worldview. Think about Jesse's entire belief system was rooted in control, secrecy and power. When he hurt smaller children, he was reenacting dominance. And now he's in a system where adults are doing the same thing. Authority figures, the very people who are supposed to teach morality and empathy, are modeling cruelty. And that's something that has already been a core model in his life already. So instead of challenging Jesse's internal narrative, Westboro may have reinforced it. The message he got wasn't that violence is wrong. The message message was violence is acceptable as long as you're the one on top. Which could explain why he reacted to Laura the way he did. But that's the real tragedy of correctional systems like this. There's almost always, inevitably some employees who model violence or abuse. And as long as that exists, they don't rehabilitate the way we would hope.
- [39:13]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think watching this kind of aggression made it more difficult for Jesse to suppress his own violent urges?
- [39:20]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Absolutely. But in fairness, I don't think they were ever suppressed. What I think did happen is this intensified them. Violence was being normalized. It was modeled and reinforced in a place he was sent as punishment for doing that very thing. Think about the kind of message that sent.
- [39:39]
Vanessa Richardson
There aren't any records of Jesse experiencing abuse at Westboro like his peers described. But he also wasn't rehabilitating. There was no therapy, no mental health services, nothing that might have helped him confront the darkness inside of him. Not that this bothered Jesse. He seemed to have figured out that the secret to getting out of reform school wasn't actually reforming, it was pretending to. He continued to convince the adults around him that he'd changed, certain that soon he'd be free to go. And even it worked. Jesse was supposed to stay in Westboro until he turned 18. But he was released after just 16 months, four years ahead of schedule. His discharge paperwork even gave him a five star review saying the boy's conduct since coming here has been excellent. In February 1874, the now 14 year old Jesse Pomeroy walked out of the institution and headed home. Home to live with his mother, Ruth, and his brother Charles in South Boston. Both were doing well. Ruth had finally opened her own sewing shop and Charles sold newspapers out of his mother's storefront. As a part of Jesse's release conditions, he was supposed to work alongside his brother. This job was intended to give Jesse the structure he needed to stay on the straight and narrow, and for a very short period of time it seemed to work. But just one month after Jesse left Westboro, a 10 year old local girl named Katie went missing near Ruth's shop. It would be months before the authorities connected her disappearance to Jesse Pomeroy, but in the time it took for police to find Katie, Jesse managed to unleash an astonishing amount of horror upon on Boston. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our deep dive on Jesse Pomeroy.
- [41:52]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Powered by Pave Studios Here at Crime House, we want to want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram @killerminds. And don't forget to rate, review and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and.
- [42:13]
Vanessa Richardson
To enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free along with early access to each thrift, thrilling two part series and exciting Crime House bonus content. Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzovsky, Sarah K. Camp, Kate Murdoch, Markie Lee, Sarah Tardif and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. Looking for your next listen from our Crime House slate of shows? Don't miss Murder True Crime Stories. Carter Roy is looking into one of the most haunting, mysterious, unsolved cases, the Boy in the Box. Listen to and follow Murder True Crime Stories every Tuesday and Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.