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Dr. Tristan Engels (4:24)

More.

Vanessa Richardson (4:27)

Between June and September of 1979, 31 year old Roy Norris and 38 year old Lawrence Bittaker kidnapped, tortured and killed four girls. 16 year old Lucinda Schaefer, 18 year old Andrea Hall, 15 year old Jacqueline Lee Lamp and 13 year old Jackie Gilliam. They had also kidnapped and assaulted another teenage girl named Shirley Sanders who managed to escape. Then on Halloween night that same year, Roy and Lawrence kidnapped a 16 year old girl named Lynette Ledford. In the past, Lawrence had taken disturbing Polaroid photographs of some of the victims, but this time he wanted to remember more of the experience. So while Lynette was tied up in the back of the men's van, which they had nicknamed Murder Mac, he pulled out a tape recorder and hit record.

Dr. Tristan Engels (5:22)

It seems that Lawrence continues to develop his MO as they progress in their crimes, which isn't unusual. So let's break it down. We discussed in episode one the use of photographs being possible trophies and tape recording could be no different. Recording the assault would allow Lawrence to capture the event in a way that could be replayed and relived. It also shows once again his need to plan, but also his escalation. Early in their crimes, Lawrence and Roy rehearsed methods of luring and abducting. By adding recordings, Lawrence was evolving his process. He wasn't content with the act itself. He wanted documentation, and that's a marker of escalation because it suggests he was thinking beyond the immediate crime toward how to sustain the fantasy over time, similar to how when they were in prison, he started to plan how they could actually carry out these crimes. This is evolution. So clinically this behavior also aligns with traits of sadism and psychopathy. And the recording wasn't necessary for the crime itself, but it was useful for Lawrence's psychological biological needs, which is power, memory and control.

Vanessa Richardson (6:29)

Thinking back to last episode, Lawrence was the one who wanted to kill the victims to avoid getting caught. But by actually tape recording an attack, he was creating evidence. What can we get about his psyche based on this contradictory and actually clumsy move? Was he just too cocky to realize how illogical he was?

Dr. Tristan Engels (6:48)

It's so true about the evidence, but this kind of seemingly careless behavior is actually not atypical for serial offenders as they continue to evolve or escalate like this. And the reason for this typically boils down to overconfidence, arrogance, and gratification. Lawrence's arrogance and his sadistic urges seem to have started to outweigh logic, at least in this instance, and as he continues to progress, which could indicate that his own pathology was in some ways undermining his own strategy.

Vanessa Richardson (7:20)

So Lawrence clearly wasn't as smart as he thought he was. At the same time, he was becoming even more violent. With his tape recorder on, Lawrence tortured Lynette. He used several of the tools stashed in the van, including a pair of locking pliers. When it came time for Lawrence and Roy to switch places, Lynette was barely hanging on. And while Roy did not sexually assault her, he did strike her with a hammer multiple times. All told, Lawrence and Roy tormented her for over two hours in the back of their van. Whenever Lynette mustered the strength to scream, no one heard her. Finally, when the men were finished, Roy was the one to kill her. This marked the first time that he murdered one of their victims without Lawrence's help.

Dr. Tristan Engels (8:08)

So obviously, this is a notable shift in Roy's role in their partnership. And it also highlights Roy's evolution and escalation as well. And we already outlined Lawrence's evolution because it was rooted in his need for control and calculation. Even his sadistic tendencies in trophy collecting were rooted in control. So he evolved from planner to sadist. But when it comes to Roy, he is more rooted in impulse and compulsion. So initially, murder was never part of his plan. But during his time with Lawrence, he was repeatedly exposed to it. And that likely caused him to become desensitized to murder. In the same way, watching servicemen assault women in the military likely did desensitize him to assaulting women. Now, killing Lynette independently was his turning point. It showed that he had absorbed Lawrence's role and was now capable of doing both. So, in a sense, he evolved from sexual aggressor to killer. And they learned how to evolve from one another, which is truly disturbing, but also, again, not atypical for co offender dynamics.

Vanessa Richardson (9:10)

While we don't know exactly what led to Roy being the one to kill Lynette, we do know that it wasn't the only divergence in their behavior so far. When Lynette was dead, the men left her body on someone's front lawn. This was a significant change from their usual Routine of hiding bodies in the San Gabriel mountains. It's not clear exactly whose idea it was to drop Lynette's body on the lawn, but it turned out to be a mistake. The next morning, November 1, 1979, a jogger noticed Lynette's crumpled figure in the grass. At first, he thought the body was a Halloween decoration that hadn't been moved yet. But when he got closer, he realized the horrific truth. That jogger called the police and Lynette's body was taken for an autopsy. The report revealed a laundry list of frightening injuries that had clearly been caused by everyday tools like pliers and a hammer. But as shocking as it was, it seemed to be an isolated incident because none of Lawrence and Roy's other victims had been found. But once the discovery of Lynette's body made headlines, someone came forward with bombshell claims. In mid November, Roy's old prison buddy, Jimmy Dalton saw one of the news reports. Roy had once told Jimmy all about the crimes he and Lawrence were committing. At the time, Jimmy didn't believe him. He thought Roy was just trying to sound dangerous. But once he heard about Lynette, Jimmy realized how similar her death sounded to the murders Roy had described. And he wanted them caught as soon as possible. Because Jimmy had a 13 year old daughter himself who Roy had met recently. And Jimmy didn't like the way Roy had behaved toward her. So he called the LAPD with his suspicions.

Dr. Tristan Engels (11:01)

So let's talk about what that might have been like for Jimmy to report his friend like that. Remember, he met Roy in prison. And that's where friendships are often about. Survival, trust, and protection. Those bonds can feel stronger than the ones formed on the outside because they're formed in an inherently hostile environment. But layered on top of that is prison culture itself, where, quote, snitching is seen as the ultimate betrayal. If you're branded a snitch even on the outside, you can lose protection, face retaliation, and carry a stigma that follows you. Which would be very dangerous for Jimmy should he ever find himself back in prison. So for Jimmy, the act of coming forward didn't just mean betraying Roy. It meant stepping outside of what was likely a deeply ingrained code as well. But also, crimes against children aren't well tolerated in that culture. And this has become personal. When he introduced Roy to his 13 year old daughter without fully realizing what his friend was capable of, and he noticed how he behaved toward her. This wasn't just about what Roy had confessed. It was about Jimmy's own child and the risk of harm becoming very real. Especially since Roy now likely knows where he lives and certainly knows what his daughter looks like. So the choice to report Roy was likely very conflicting for Jimmy. But thankfully, Jimmy put protection of his daughter over loyalty to a friend, and in doing so, likely helped protect many other children in the process.

Vanessa Richardson (12:26)

Do you think people would be more likely to take action in these kinds of situations when they have personal connection like Jimmy did with his daughter?

Dr. Tristan Engels (12:34)

Yes. It's actually tied to something called the proximity principle, Specifically when a threat is involved. So the closer we feel to a potential victim, the stronger our motivation is to intervene for Jimmy. Again, it wasn't just that Roy had talked about violence. It was that Roy was now interacting with his 13 year old daughter. That was somebody that was personal to him with a very close connection. And that raised alarm for him, that transformed the threat from distant to immediate. And it also taps into protecting protective instincts. For parents especially, those instincts can override fears of retaliation. Now, if the personal connection in this case Roy, was another family member rather than a friend, that can get a bit more complicated. We are biologically wired to protect family or kin, which can explain why there are instances of hesitation. So for example, a child tells a parent that they've been harmed or abused by another family member. Sometimes the urgency to act is reduced because of cognitive dissonance and fear. Tomb family members are at the center of the threat, and that can get complicated. But in this case, Roy was not family. He was a friend he made in prison. And as a result, that likely made it easier for Jimmy to make the decision he did.

Vanessa Richardson (13:49)

Well, Jimmy's gut instinct kicked in at the right time. When he called the police, he spoke to Paul Bynum, the lead investigator on Lynette's case. At first, 31 year old Paul wasn't too keen on taking leads from a convicted felon. But when Jimmy mentioned Roy's silver van, Paul's ears perked up. The van matched the description Shirley Sanders had given them after Roy and Lawrence had kidnapped her. At the time, there hadn't been enough information to go on. But with Jimmy's tip, Paul Bynum could finally move forward. Shirley lived up in Oregon, so Paul and a team of officers traveled there to speak with her. They showed Shirley a stack of photographs of different men and asked if she saw either of her attack. Shirley pointed to pictures of Lawrence and Roy. It was a huge breakthrough for Shirley's case. And now authorities decided to place surveillance on both men, Hoping to catch one of them violating parole from their prior crimes. The Ones that had landed them in prison and began their deadly friendship. One group of officers kept tabs on Roy in Redondo beach, while another tail killed Lawrence in Burbank. Roy slipped up first. On November 20, 1979, police caught him selling marijuana. They brought him back to the station and put him in an interrogation room. Detectives knew that Roy and Lawrence shared a close bond. They likely expected Roy to do whatever he could to protect Lawrence. But when Roy sat down with police, he described a version of events they never thought they would hear. On November 20, 1979, 31 year old Roy Norris was arrested for violating his parole. Officers had been watching him after his old prison buddy exposed him and 39 year old Lawrence Bittaker as serial kidnappers and killers. Once in custody, Roy confessed almost immediately. His story came as a complete shock. He claimed that Lawrence was the ringmaster of their crimes and had manipulated and bullied him into everything.

Dr. Tristan Engels (16:08)

This actually is not a surprising reaction when we consider who Roy is. Certainly there are elements of self preservation. Roy was impulsive, but he wasn't blind to reality. He may have recognized that cooperating could have its benefits, like reducing his own punishment. And someone who lacks empathy or remorse would not think twice about placing the blame on someone else. And someone highly impulsive would likely not think twice about confessing without weighing their risks fully. But I think more importantly, Roy likely truly believed that he was bullied into this. If we think about their power dynamics and Rory's apparent tendency to revert to more commanding and authoritative individuals, like we talked about in episode one, feeling any pressure to comply with Lawrence's rule of killing may have genuinely interpreted as bullying or force by Roy. There was an imbalance between them that Roy may have felt obligated to correct to maintain his friendship with Lawrence. And that could have caused resentment. Which means turning on Lawrence allowed him to reclaim any power he felt he may have lost in that dynamic. But it's also worth noting that he is being pressed by authority figures. And if Roy does have this pattern of deferring to them, his confession can be partly explained by this as well. Of course, Roy is just as guilty and projecting blame does not reduce his culpability.

Vanessa Richardson (17:29)

To be clear, is it typical for criminal pairs or teams to turn on each other like this?

Dr. Tristan Engels (17:34)

Yeah, it's actually more common than people realize. Research actually suggests that around 80% of CO offenders end up cooperating with law enforcement in some way. At least one of them. And that's because these partnerships are conditional. They're not built on true loyalty. In Roy and Lawrence's case, their bond was based on convenience, personal gratification, and shared pathological pathology. But when consequences come into play or those conditions are no longer there, those foundations tend to collapse. So at this point, the only thing left to gain for Roy was self preservation.

Vanessa Richardson (18:09)

Whether it was out of guilt or an attempt to save himself, Roy didn't hold anything back. He told detectives everything about their methods, like how they kidnapped victims and carried out each attack. But when they went after Lawrence, he denied everything. He claimed he was totally innocent. However, his story did not hold up. When officers searched Lawrence's home, they discovered about 500 Polaroids of young women and girls. Among these were photos of Andrea hall, who'd been missing since July of that year, and Jackie Gilliam, who'd been missing since September. Investigators likely knew that Jackie had been with Jacqueline Lamp when they both went missing. But there were other other missing girls in la, too. And investigators still weren't sure who exactly had fallen prey to Roy and Lawrence. They did, however, gain some hard evidence linking the men to the attacks. When investigators searched Roy and Lawrence's van, they found a bag filled with lead weights, a sledgehammer, pliers, Vaseline, as well as several bottles of acid. It was all pretty damning. But even once he was presented with all of this evidence, Lawrence didn't admit to anything.

Dr. Tristan Engels (19:26)

Okay, so remember that Lawrence has been about planning and control, whereas Roy was impulsive and compulsive. So for Lawrence, confessing to any wrongdoing would mean giving up control. Silence or denial allows Lawrence to keep a sense of power over the victims, the investigators, and the narrative. Another layer here is narcissism and ego protection. To confess would mean acknowledging vulnerability or admitting defeat and handing authority to others. By denying or withholding information, Lawrence could maintain the image of superiority that he clung to. There's also the element of sadistic gratification, and Lawrence has sadistic tendencies. Sometimes the refusal to speak is a form of cruelty and gratification in itself. So while it might seem illogical to us that he did not confess when the evidence is very clear, for Lawrence, the refusal seemed entirely consistent with his pathology. Denying guilt was about preserving control, ego and dominance to the the very end.

Vanessa Richardson (20:29)

Lawrence may not have been willing to confess, but Roy's sole focus was still to save himself. And that not only meant pinning all of the worst offenses on Lawrence, but trying to make himself look like a hero. On November 30, as a way to appear fully cooperative, he not only waived his Miranda rights, but he gave the names of each of their victims, it's not totally clear how he knew them all. It's entirely possible that Roy and Lawrence was had forced the girls to tell them. But either way, the information was invaluable. Roy also brought detectives to the San Gabriel mountains To try and help them locate the victims bodies. Until this point, only Lynette Ledford had been found when her body was discovered on that lawn. But even with Roy's guidance, the search team didn't find anything. Roy told detectives the same thing that Lawrence had told him when they disposed of the bodies, but that wild animals may have destroyed or scattered their remains. But detectives also assumed Roy simply didn't know where the bodies actually were, since he and Lawrence had not only committed their crimes at night, but neither man was savvy in the wilderness. So investigators continued to search the area for months. Then, on February 9, 1980, the bodies of Jackie Gilliam and Jacqueline Lennon lamp Were found at the bottom of a canyon near a dry riverbed. And the state of their remains Shed even more light on the gruesome nature of their deaths. For example, the ice pick used to kill Jackie Was still embedded in her skull. After Jacqueline and Jackie were found, Authorities had enough evidence to formally charge Roy and Lawrence, who had become known as the tool box killers, because based on the victim's autopsies, Authorities determined that all of their injuries Were likely caused by the tools found in the van. Roy knew how bad things were looking for them. They could be facing the death penalty. So in order to strike a deal with authorities, he quickly pleaded guilty to five counts of murder, Two counts of rape, and one count of robbery. Lawrence, however, refused to take responsibility for anything and pleaded not guilty. In the months leading up to the trials, Media coverage of the case exploded. And when Roy stepped into the courtroom on March 18, 1980, it seemed like the whole country was watching him. Roy's trial moved quickly, since he'd already pleaded guilty. In the period between his trial and sentencing, A probation officer questioned Roy a few more times. During those conversations, Roy continued to claim that Lawrence had tortured the victims, not him. And while Roy admitted to getting A certain amount of satisfaction from sexually assaulting the girls, he said it had more to do with power and domination Than sexual gratification. All the while, he appeared to show no emotion about anything he or Lawrence had done.

Dr. Tristan Engels (23:33)

So this is interesting because he's essentially saying he's not this impulsive or compulsive, Sexually aggressive offender. He's driven by power and dominance. Of course, that's at the core of of sexual assault. But his framing shows how he views himself or wants to view himself, and the probation officer's assessment of him seems to be accurate. Roy has already been clinically assessed and previously diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder. And if you recall from episode one, the hallmarks of that disorder are a lack of interest in social interaction, emotional detachment, preference for solitude, flat affect, and a lack of desire for intimacy. But individuals with this condition are not inherently hostile or exploitative. When we consider his patterns of behavior, it's likely he may have been misdiagnosed at the time or they simply didn't have the full picture. Yet he was quite social when he was incarcerated and had friends like Jimmy. So what the probation officer was seeing was more likely than not the traits of antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy. Individuals with antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy can also have emotional detachment, lack of empathy or remorse, flat affect, difficulty with intimacy, callousness, manipulative qualities, disregard for rules and norms, grandiosity and superficial charm.

Vanessa Richardson (24:53)

Well, the probation officer saw Roy for what he really was because while addressing the court, he said that he believed Roy was an extreme sociopath and compulsive killer that took a sick pleasure in causing pain and that in his professional opinion, Roy was beyond rehabilitation. But it seems like the court decided to show leniency because Roy was sentenced to 45 years in prison with the possibility of parole. It was a devastating blow to both the prosecutors and the families of the victims. But the ordeal was far from over because Lawrence's trial had yet to begin. And since he had pleaded not guilty, the prosecution would have to prove that he was. And when it came time to present the appalling evidence against him, Lawrence showed a side to himself that haunted some for the rest of their lives.

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Vanessa Richardson (27:27)

In March 1980, 32 year old Roy Norris pleaded guilty to five counts of murder, two counts of rape and one count of robbery. He was sentenced to 45 years in prison with the possibility of parole. And in order to avoid the death penalty, Roy agreed to testify in court against his partner in crime, 40 year old Lawrence Bittaker. Lawrence's trial started on January 19, 1981, almost a year after Roy's in Torrance, California. After jury selection and opening statements, Roy took the witness stand and described his toxic, deadly relationship with Lawrence. First, Roy described how the two men met in the California Men's Colony in 1977. Then he went on to tell the court about how he and Lawrence conspired to rape and murder a handful of girls once they were out of prison. And finally he gave detailed accounts of the assaults and murders. Roy was careful to paint Lawrence as the leader. He made sure the court knew that it was Lawrence who'd strangled and killed their first victim, Lucinda Shaffer. Roy also claimed that Lawrence had killed 18 year old Andrea hall and disposed of her body when Roy wasn't even there. And finally he said that Lawrence had gruesome murdered Jackie Gilliam with an ice pick, despite Roy suggesting they take her life in a more merciful way. Roy did admit that he and Lawrence had killed Jackie's friend Jacqueline Lamp together. However, Roy claimed that Lawrence made him do it because up until that point, Roy insisted that he hadn't actually killed any of their victims. It was clear that the jury would have to untangle differing versions of what happened. But it wasn't until Roy described the death of their fifth and final victim, 16 year old Lynette Ledford, that they realized just how miserable, twisted and evil these two men were. Roy explained that both of them had assaulted and tortured Lynette, but Lawrence insisted on tape recording it and when they were done, he'd persuaded Roy to kill Lynette Himself before Lawrence decided where to dispose of her body.

Dr. Tristan Engels (29:45)

So let's talk about what might have been going on psychologically between Roy and Lawrence as they go against one another in court. For Roy, testifying against Lawrence was likely a mix of self preservation and rationalization. Psychologically, he may have also tried to distance himself from the sadism of Lawrence's behavior. Roy had always framed his violence as being about domination rather than pure cruelty. So in court, pointing to Lawrence as the, quote, worst of the two would have been a way to maintain a sense of himself as less culpable. But for Lawrence, hearing Roy's testimony would have likely been infuriating, but also predictable. Individuals with psychopathic traits don't truly believe in loyalty because they themselves aren't capable of it. So at the same time, it would have threatened his sense of superiority. He saw himself as the leader and the mastermind. Having his partner speak against him stripped away some of that control, and that could have been intolerable for him. So beneath the surface, this courtroom battle wasn't just about guilt or innocence. It was about the end of their alliance as well.

Vanessa Richardson (30:51)

Well, to add to his grim portrayal of Lawrence, Roy finished his testimony by telling the court that Lawrence played the tape recording on repeat for two weeks after Lynette's murder. Apparently, he thought it was funny. It was almost unbelievable. But soon the court had reason to believe that Roy was telling the truth. When he stepped down from the witness stand, the prosecution called several others to testify. Friends and a current cellmate all confirmed that Lawrence had bragged about the crimes. A few of them said he even showed them some of the polaroids he'd taken of his victims. Throughout it all, Lawrence's expression remained stoic, even as the prosecution presented the most damning piece of evidence against him. The tape recording. Before hitting play, Deputy District Attorney Stephen Kay gave the courtroom a stark warning. He said, quote, for those of you who do not know what hell is like, you are about to find out. Then he let the recording run for its entire 17 minutes. There were approximately 100 people in the courtroom that day. Every single one of them was horrified. Members of the jury and the legal teams were brought to tears when they heard what was on the tape. It was so unbearable, some people even ran out of the room. As for Lawrence, only now did his expression change as he listened to to Lynette's screams. A smile appeared on his face.

Dr. Tristan Engels (32:28)

So I don't think anybody listening is surprised by this reaction. By now, there is an established pattern of sadism. And just to recap sadism is when someone derives pleasure or enjoyment from inflicting pain and suffering on someone else, whether it's psychologically, physically, or sexually. Hearing this alone would cause him enjoyment, even in the context of court. But that enjoyment is amply amplified by witnessing the horrified reactions from an entire courtroom of 100 people. Playing the tape of what he had done was a form of torment on that courtroom alone, at least in the eyes of someone with sadistic tendencies.

Vanessa Richardson (33:08)

Lawrence's reaction set a chilling tone when it was time for his lawyers to present their case. Their angle was to pin the murders on Roy and paint Lawrence's sexual encounters with the victims as consensual. And when Lawrence took the stand, he took things a step further by portraying himself as an unknowing bystander. First, he claimed that he'd paid Andrea Hall $200 for sex and nude photographs which they took in the San Gabriel Mountains, and that when Roy arrived to have his way with her, Lawrence returned home unaware of what happened later.

Dr. Tristan Engels (33:44)

I just want to remind everyone Lawrence is a strategist and planner, and he clearly spent the year planning his legal strategy and building a defense. Available evidence.

Vanessa Richardson (33:54)

Lawrence went on to give similar excuses for each victim. He said he always left the girls with Roy and didn't know what happened to them next. As for the tape, Lawrence claimed it was staged. He said Lynette had agreed to scream and pretend to be in pain for his enjoyment, but that he didn't actually hurt her. When closing arguments began on February 10, 1981, Lawrence's defense continued to shift the blame. They accused Deputy DA Stephen Kay of bloodlust after he openly wished that Lawrence could be tortured the way the victims were. His lawyers also reminded the court that Lawrence had never committed a violent offense before he met Roy. Not to mention there was insufficient forensic evidence that Lawrence had committed these crimes. But in the end, the jury didn't buy any of it. After three days of deliberation, they found Lawrence guilty of five counts of first degree murder, five charges of kidnapping, and nine charges of rape. They also found Lawrence guilty of oral copulation, robbery, conspiracy to commit first degree murder, and three counts of possession of an illegal firearm. Two days later, Lawrence. Lawrence was sentenced to death. He had no visible reaction to his sentence. Lawrence was sent to San Quentin to await execution, which was scheduled for 10 years later on July 9, 1991. In the meantime, his team made multiple attempts to appeal. They were all denied, although the execution was eventually postponed indefinitely. In the end, both. Both men spent the rest of their natural lives behind bars, Roy mostly disappeared from the public eye. But Lawrence granted multiple interviews while on death row. He was unrepentant about his crimes. His only regret was that he'd been arrested. Not everyone was able to move on from it so easily, though, especially when it came to the people involved with the Toolbox Killer case. For example, prosecutor Stephen K. Began having recruited recurring nightmares where he was running to try to save the victims. And he would wake up just before getting to Lawrence and Roy's silver fan. And one of the lead detectives on the case, Paul Bynum, died by suicide in 1987, six years after Lawrence's conviction. Bynum left a 10 page note saying he was terrified that Roy and Lawrence would one day be released.

Dr. Tristan Engels (36:32)

So what you described, especially with Stephen K. And Paul, is an example of vicarious or secondary trauma. That is, when the mind replays scenes of horror and powerlessness, even though they weren't a direct victim, it speaks to how deeply the case invaded the subconscious of all of those who were involved in it. For the families, this is unspeakable. It's hard enough to know that your child's life was taken in such a horrific way. But to see photos or hear a recording of their final moments, that is devastating and not only exposes them to secondary trauma as well, but it greatly complicates the grieving process. Knowing the intimate details of their suffering can interfere with healing, making it harder to remember the person as they lived and leaving them with an intense sense of powerlessness. There aren't really enough words to articulate how devastating that that would be on all of those involved.

Vanessa Richardson (37:30)

Well, it's certainly understandable why people would have been so afraid of either man rejoining society. Thankfully, that never happened. Roy was never granted parole and died in 2020 of natural causes at the age of 72. Lawrence had also passed away from natural causes the year before while still on death row. He was 79. Before their murder spree began, the two of them had bonded over shared trauma. But rather than working to overcome it, they let it consume them. And they took their misery out on innocent people just so they could pretend to be powerful. But all the hurt Roy and Lawrence caused never won them anything. And in the end, the men whose friendship ruined so many lives. Lives died alone, with no one by their side. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the case of another killer.

Dr. Tristan Engels (38:43)

Killer Minds is a Crime House original power Powered by Pave Studios Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram Crime House and don't forget to rate, review and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and.

Vanessa Richardson (39:03)

To enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free along with early early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting Crime House bonus content. Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzofsky, Sarah Camp, Kate Murdoch, Sarah Batchelor, Haniya Saeed and Kerry Murphy. Thank you for listening. Twisted Tales with Heidi Wong is perfect for spooky season. Dive into the real events behind the world's most terrifying blockbusters and beyond. Twisted Tales is a Crunch House original. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes out every Monday.