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- [00:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi, it's Vanessa. If you're drawn to true crime stories about disappearances, there's a new Crime House original you should check out. It's called the Final Hours, hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah's an advocate for missing and murdered victims whose own sister disappeared in 2001. And Courtney is a true crime storyteller who's seen firsthand how crime can change a family forever. Together, they bring lived experience to every case, examining the moments just before a person disappears. The routines, the timelines, the small details that often get overlooked. Because every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal. Until it doesn't. Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday. This is Crime House. No one likes to feel trapped, whether it's a job you can't afford to leave, a bad living situation, or a relationship on its last legs. And in the early 20th century, it wasn't as easy for people to escape unwanted circumstances, especially women in rural areas. Between the isolation and the poverty, these women had limited options. But Lyda Southard found a way out. Lyda had spent her whole life living on a farm. The work was backbreaking and never ending. Until one day, she broke free. The only problem was that Lyda's freedom meant death for others. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is serial killers and murderous minds. A Crime House original. I'm Vanessa.
- [02:22]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Ingalls. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.
- [02:31]
Vanessa Richardson
Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review and follow serial killers and murderous minds to enhance your listening experience with ad Free early access to each two part series and bonus content. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [02:47]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And today, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome two special guests, Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole, the hosts of Crime House's newest show, the Final Hours.
- [02:57]
Sarah Turney
Hi. We're so excited to be here.
- [02:59]
Courtney Nicole
Yes, thank you so much for having Sarah and me on.
- [03:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Of course. Dr. Engels and I are thrilled to have you here with us. Every Monday, starting February 23rd, on the final Hours, Sarah and Cort will dive into some of true crime's most gripping cases, examining the smallest details and asking, could something have been overlooked?
- [03:18]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And in case you're not familiar with Sarah and Cort's work, these are two amazing women. They're incredible advocates for justice who have lived through their own personal experiences with true crime. Today they'll introduce the episode and then afterwards I'll sit down with them to dig into their backgrounds and talk about the final hours. Sarah, I'll let you take it from here.
- [03:39]
Sarah Turney
Today, Vanessa and Dr. Ingalls begin their deep dive into Lyda Souther, an early 20th century farm wife who felt trapped inside the prison of her own existence.
- [03:49]
Courtney Nicole
After suffering for years, Lyta realized that she could gain freedom and independence if she married as many men as possible and killed each of them. Over time, her chilling pattern earned her the nickname Lady Bluebeard.
- [04:01]
Sarah Turney
While Vanessa takes you through the story, Dr. Angles will be talking about things like how some killers are driven by a deep desire for their own independence, how they try to trick others into believing they're a victim rather than the perpetrator, and what they're willing to do to escape the law.
- [04:17]
Courtney Nicole
And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killwork?
- [04:24]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [05:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [05:45]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [05:48]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [05:54]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [05:56]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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- [06:11]
Vanessa Richardson
when she was young, Lyda Southard's entire life was about working hard so her family could survive. She was born lyda Trueblood in 1892 in Keatsville, Missouri, and she was one of seven children growing up on their family's farm. They relied on every pair of hands to work the land, cook, and clean. In 1906, when Lyda was 13, her family moved 1,400 miles away to Twin Falls, Idaho, hoping for a better life. The ranch they settled on was a lot bigger than what they had in Missouri, which meant they could grow a lot more crops. But that also meant there was a lot more work to do. However, despite how busy she was at home, Lyda was able to attend school every day. She loved going to school because she got to learn about a world beyond the farm. During high school, Lyda decided that she wanted to travel and have adventures of her own. Unfortunately, by the time she graduated, Lyda had no way of pursuing her dream. Not only was she poor, but it was frowned upon for a woman to strike out on her own. But Lyda found a way to spend more time away from the ranch by getting a job as a cashier and waitress at a restaurant called the Grill Cafe. The customers there loved her. People were naturally drawn to Lyda's beauty. She was slender with bright red hair. Plus she was extremely outgoing. But there was one person in particular who caught her eye. Her former classmate, Robert Dooley. Like Lyda, Robert had spent his childhood in Missouri before moving to Idaho as a teenager. The two had remained friends, and soon that friendship blossomed into romance. A year after they graduated from high school, on March 17, 1912, Lyda and Robert were married. Lyda was 19 years old when she became a wife and left her parents ranch to set up her own household with Robert. She thought running her own household might give her the independence she'd always longed for. But instead, Lyda started feeling more trapped than ever. Robert lived on a ranch outside Twin Falls with his brother Ed. And from the moment Lyda stepped through the door, she and Ed were at odds. Because of the strict gender roles at the time, Lyda knew it was her job to care for Ed in addition to her husband. But she had no idea how much she'd despise her new brother in law. In her opinion, Ed was loud, obnoxious and bossy. Lyta resented having to cook for him and do his laundry on top of all of her other responsibilities. But there was nothing she could do about it. It was her job.
- [08:54]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Based on what you've been describing, it sounds like Lyda's been feeling helpless and constrained for some time. She's been longing for more autonomy and adventure. But gender roles, family expectations, and even rigid societal norms were keeping her feeling trapped. Her marriage to Robert may have felt like the closest thing to a that was realistically available to her outside of working at the cafe and as a cashier. But this escape came with conditions that she may not have fully anticipated or even consented to, which was caring for Robert's brother, Ed. In that sense, the marriage placed her into additional caregiving expectations and to someone that she had conflict with. That shifts the marriage from a partnership to obligation very quickly. And it's not easy to provide forced care to someone that you resent or even dislike. Also, when we look at her life until this point, there may have been a lot of compounding frustration when people experience that, as well as feelings of entrapment or lack of autonomy. One established response to that is aggression. And aggression doesn't always look violent. It can be verbal. It can be passive, covert, or even indirect. But it is known to result when there's a lack of healthy avenues for escape, release, or coping. Lyda now has more responsibility, more surveillance, and fewer choices than before. And that can build a lot of internal pressure, especially when you don't get a voice on the matter.
- [10:22]
Vanessa Richardson
Lyda had hoped marriage would open her world, but her life on Robert's ranch quickly closed in on her. Every day, dust drifted in through the cracks, and flies buzzed around the kitchen. The days were long and repetitive. She cooked, cleaned, hauled water, and tended to the animals. Then, by 1913, Lyda gained another major responsibility, caring for her new baby daughter, Lorraine. What should have been a happy time only added to Lyda's frustration, especially since having Ed around made it feel like there was already a child in the house. Lyda's only form of escape was her short trips into town for supplies. And one day in the summer of 1915, Lyda went on a shopping trip that changed everything. While standing at the checkout counter, Lyda noticed some flypaper for sale. The package was wrapped in red paper with a skull and crossbone symbol, warning people to keep the product away from children. Back then, fly paper didn't come in the sticky sheets like we have today. It was soaked in arsenic, a deadly poison, which back then was commonly used as household pest control. The Flypaper Lyta was looking at had a label that spelled out exactly how to use it. Lay two or three pieces of paper in a saucer, fill it with water, and bring it to a boil. The poison would seep out of the paper, and once the water cooled, it would attract flies and kill them. If a person drank some by accident, the warning label said they should consume egg whites and call a doctor immediately. Lyda grabbed several packets of fly paper, which was a lot more than one household usually needed. She told the clerk she was dealing with a huge infestation. Then she paid for her things and returned home. While Robert and Ed were out doing chores, Lyda allegedly boiled down the flypaper to extract the poison. That night, she poured everyone a glass of milk to have with their dinner. And when no one was looking, she poured some of the arsenic water into Ed's glass. Since arsenic is colorless, odorless, and tasteless when dissolved in water, he had no idea what his sister in law had done. By the time they were done eating, Ed had drunk his entire glass of milk.
- [12:42]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Okay, can we first just take a moment and talk about how easy it was for her to access such a deadly poison? I mean, acquiring that did not require any kind of secrecy, deception, or even manipulation, even specialized knowledge. She just saw it at her local store and the instructions were right there on the box. That matters because there were very few psychological or even practical barriers for her to set this into action. Her motivation also isn't especially mysterious when you look at the context we've already outlined. That internal pressure had been building for some time, compounding stressors, lack of autonomy, no socially acceptable outlets, and now she's just had a baby. That's another caretaking role layered onto an already full plate. It also makes me wonder about postpartum adjustment as well. What's particularly telling, though, is how she chose to do this. None of it was impulsive, and doing it at a family dinner shows comfort with deception in close relational spaces. These are spaces that were shared by her husband and her infant daughter. There's assumed trust in those spaces, and it also speaks to emotional detachment. Within a matter of hours, she moved seamlessly from shopping for mundane household items with her newborn daughter to seeing and then purchasing flypaper, taking it home to boil it down, concealing the pot and the arsenic, preparing a family meal her husband and child would also eat, and then covertly poisoning Ed's milk, seemingly without any hesitation or even second thought. And that level of compartmentalization is what's more concerning than Any kind of overt rage, because overt anger draws attention. This kind of compartmentalization allows for more silent, harmful behavior that can blend into everyday life like this. And that's what makes it dangerous, because it feels ordinary to the person doing it.
- [14:34]
Vanessa Richardson
There was so much thought that went into that. In general, what can you tell us about the psychology behind someone's decision to use poison as a killing method?
- [14:42]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, poison is a distanced form of violence. It allows harm without direct confrontation or physical struggle. And historically, women have been overrepresented among known poisoners relative to other homicide methods, primarily because of access and social roles. Poisoning aligned with domestic responsibilities like food preparation and caregiving. And again, it doesn't require physical confrontation, which was attractive because in many contexts, women had limited power. But the research shows that this reflects opportunity, and it has narrowed significantly as social roles and access to other methods have changed. But men also poison. We've covered the teacup poisoner, Graham Young, for example. So in general, people who use poison often choose that method because they prioritize control, control, concealment, and plausible deniability.
- [15:37]
Vanessa Richardson
Lyda was about to witness the reality of the choice she'd just made. Within half an hour, Ed was violently ill. Sweat beaded on his forehead as he clutched his stomach and vomited. His skin got pale and clammy, and he could barely stand up on his own. Robert helped his brother into bed. Ed lay curled up on his side, shivering and nauseous. Soon he was convulsing in pain, all while continuing to vomit. He stayed like this for the next few days. Completely bedridden, Lyda looked after him, encouraging him to drink water. Little did he know, each sip may have been poisoned. Robert finally called a doctor to the house who examined Ed and diagnosed him with a serious case of food poisoning. It was pretty common in rural communities at the time, since people ate a lot of home canned goods that sat on their shelves for most months at a time. It was also much more dangerous than it is today. The doctor said all they could do was wait it out and hope for the best. But after a few more days, in Late August of 1915, Ed died in his bed. Robert and Lyda brought his body back to Missouri and buried him in the Dooley family plot. When they returned to Idaho, Lyda was elated. She never had to deal with her arrogant, demanding brother in law ever again. Pretty soon, she realized there was another unexpected benefit to killing him. Ed had a $2,000 life insurance policy, with Robert listed as the beneficiary. That's almost $64,000 in today's money. For Robert and Lyda, that amount of money was life changing. They no longer had to break their backs 247 just to get by. They finally had peace and security. Lyda realized right then and there how someone's death, when planned correctly, could change everything. That's when Lyda became curious. She started digging around in Robert's files and discovered that he had a policy in the same amount with her as the beneficiary. So just a few weeks after she killed Ed, Lyda bought more flypaper and started serving him arsenic. Soon, Robert was suffering from the same excruciating symptoms that his brother had. To avoid suspicion, Lyda called the doctor. She told him that Robert got sick after drinking water from the well. It was a good cover story because twin falls often dealt with typhoid outbreaks, which could have been caused by bad drinking water. As expected, the doctor diagnosed Robert with typhoid. He gave Lyda instructions for how to manage her husband's symptoms, including plenty of rest and staying hydrated. Just like before, Lyda gave Robert arsenic laced water. For the next few days, he lay in bed, convulsing and vomiting, until finally, In October of 1915, about two months after his brother's passing, Robert died.
- [18:39]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
This case really forces us to separate how care appears on the outside and how relationships are experienced on the inside. Because outwardly, Lyda played the part. She was attentive and devoted. Anybody on the outside would see that. That doesn't mean those behaviors were necessarily insincere. But I do think it suggests that she loved what Robert initially represented more than him as a person. I think she saw him as a symbol of freedom and autonomy, one that ultimately failed to deliver what she had hoped. And when she discovered the life insurance policy, it represented all the things Robert no longer did, which were control, security, and independence. In that sense, it was an escape, and her relationship was an obstacle. Any care for him appears to have ended when that option emerged, because it offered greater perceived benefit than anything the marriage to Robert could provide. That's also why the method matters, because as we discussed earlier, poisoning is not fast. It offers plausible deniability. She has a cover story. She had the doctor come and see him, and he diagnosed Robert with typhoid. But poisoning is also, again, prolonged, painful, and it requires tolerance for another person's suffering. She killed for financial gain. But what's more concerning is her apparent ability to override any kind of attachment she might have had towards him and suppress her empathy so easily over that prolonged period of time.
- [20:04]
Vanessa Richardson
Lyda and Robert had already received a huge payout after Ed died. How can a large influx of cash alter someone's psyche?
- [20:12]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, sudden influx of cash can rapidly change how someone perceives control or possibility and even consequence. Psychologically, it can be reinfor, especially when your behavior. In her case, killing Ed, is followed by a significant reward like that that can reshape decision making. Especially for someone who's felt constrained and has been fantasizing about escape for years. But here's the thing. People might be wondering, why even kill Robert for money if she just came into so much money after killing Ed? Well, after Ed's death, the money didn't actually give Lyda control. Robert was the beneficiary. And even though they were married under the norms of the time, it would have been managed by Rober. So in other words, the very thing that symbolized freedom was still inaccessible to her. She didn't have control over it. So she wasn't going to benefit from Ed's payout unless something changed. And she knew it. And that's why I think she started digging into Robert's life insurance policy. She needed to remove Robert because he was a relational and financial obstacle. So it consolidated control. It meant access to money from both Ed and Robert without any kind of permission or dependence. And all of this occurs after she's already experienced the payoff, both literal and psychological, following Ed's death. So she knew the method was accessible, effective, and undetectable. I think at this point, she's repeating a successful method.
- [21:37]
Vanessa Richardson
Lyda's level of sheer cruelty might have been what helped her get away with murder. Because no one thought that a 23 year old mother was capable of murder. To everyone else, Lyda was now an unfortunate widow. Robert was buried in his family's plot alongside Ed shortly after, lyda received the $2,000 payout. Now, with nearly $4,000 to her name, Lyda could afford her own independence. The life she'd always dreamed of was finally within her reach. She could travel and have her own experiences. But before she could do that, Lyda faced another tragedy. A few weeks after Robert's passing, her two year old daughter Lorraine developed a severe fever. Lyda called the doctor over and said that Lorraine had drank from the same well as her father. Then, one month after Robert died, Lorraine passed away. People were shocked and gave Lyda their utmost sympathy. Even though it was common at the time for people to get sick and die. Lyda had endured so much loss, it's not clear whether Lyta had poisoned her own daughter. But she made sure to play the part of a grief stricken woman doing her best to stay strong. She buried Lorraine in her family's plot in Twin Falls. Then she used her newfound wealth to leave the ranch and move into town alone. Now that Lyda had her freedom, she realized just how much money there was for the taking. All she had to do was keep finding the right victims. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. What if comparing car insurance rates was as easy as putting on your favorite podcast with Progressive? It is. Just visit the Progressive website to quote with all the coverages you want. You'll see Progressive's direct rate. Then their tool will provide options from other companies so you can compare. All you need to do is choose the rate and coverage you like. Quote today@progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Comparison rates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.
- [23:53]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Hey Sal.
- [23:54]
Vanessa Richardson
Hank, what's going on?
- [23:56]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy. Too easy.
- [24:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Think something's up?
- [24:02]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a
- [24:06]
Vanessa Richardson
great car at a great price and it got delayed. Delivered the next day.
- [24:10]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
It sounds like Carvana just makes it
- [24:12]
Vanessa Richardson
easy to buy your car, Hank.
- [24:14]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, you're right. Case closed.
- [24:17]
Courtney Nicole
Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.
- [24:24]
Vanessa Richardson
By the fall of 1915, 23 year old Lyda Trueblood had killed her brother in law, her husband and lost her two year old daughter. On the surface, Lyda was a grieving widow. No one knew she was a cold blooded killer. Once she moved back to town, she slipped easily into her old job as a waitress at the Grill Cafe. Now that she had all that life insurance money, Lyda was able to enjoy talking to new interesting people all day without worrying about how much she was making it work. For a year, Lyda kept a low profile, pouring coffee and carrying plates. And then one day she met someone she found a more interesting than anyone else. A young man named William McAfee, a rancher who everyone called Billy. Billy was kind, easygoing and most importantly, sympathetic to all the loss Lyda had endured. When Lyta told Billy about the deaths of her husband, child and brother in law, she framed her situation as though she needed someone to protect and take care of Her. Of course, she likely didn't mention the payouts she'd received. All Billy saw was a young, beautiful woman down on her luck. And his sense of manly duty kicked in. By May of 1917, when Lyda was 24 years old, they became husband and wife. As soon as they were married, she told him. This time she wanted a safeguard against misfortune. She asked him to take out a five thousand dollar life insurance policy. That's just over $125,000 today. And he agreed.
- [26:03]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So her previous deaths were more opportunistic. Whereas what's happening here with Billy seems like a strategic, premeditated plot to kill him. She's creating conditions that make killing possible for her to act upon later. Which means her relationship with Billy is a means to an end to her, much in the same way she seemingly viewed her marriage to Robert. And it also means that this is an escalation because she's attempting to engineer the outcome ahead of time. That requires foresight and patience and confidence in her method. It also suggests a growing detachment. So what this tells us about her developing criminal mentality is that her behavior has become rehearsed, reinforced and deliberate. She's not crossing a line for the first time. She's continuing to refine her process. This is typical of serial offenders. The more successful she is, the risk of repetition increases dramatically.
- [27:00]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, in addition to taking out such a high policy, Lyda had one more step to her plan. She told Billy she needed to leave Twin Falls behind. She said there were too many bad memories there and she wanted a fresh start. She suggested they move to Hardin, Montana, where Billy could buy a ranch. Billy agreed, and they moved about 500 miles north. Part of the reason Lyda suggested Hardin was because it was located near the city of Billings and she'd be able to get there easily. She spent most of her time doing housework and occasionally went into town for supplies. Her trips to Billings gave her the reprieve she needed from ranch life. But after about a year, By October of 1918, it wasn't enough to keep her happy. So on her next shopping trip, Lyda grabbed several packets of flypaper. The clerk asked her why she needed so much now that the weather was colder and the flies were disappearing. Lida smiled and told him she hated flies more than anything. Here's what allegedly happened next. When she got home, Lyda found an old pot to boil the flypaper in. She poured it into a jar, then added it to Billy's food before they sat down for dinner. That evening, within no time, Billy was sweating, shaking and vomiting. Lyda helped him into one of the twin beds in their room. For the next few days, she pretended to nurse him, all while continuing to poison him. Eventually, he tried to refuse the water she offered him, but he was too weak. Lyda forced the drink down his throat, but she knew he was onto her, just like she'd done with Robert. She called a doctor in order to avoid suspicion. As an added touch, she told the doctor she was sick, too. And jumped into the other twin bed before he got there. When Dr. W.A. russell arrived, Lyda and Billy both appeared sick. But Billy was in much worse shape. He had a high fever and his breathing was shallow. He couldn't even speak. Dr. Russell said there was a flu outbreak and that he'd been tending to patients around the clock. He figured they'd come down with it, too. Since Lyda didn't have a fever. He told her to rest and drink plenty of water. And then he gave Billy some medicine and told Lyda to make sure he kept taking it for the next few days. Before Dr. Russell left, Billy let out a groan, like he was trying to say something. The doctor leaned in to listen, and Lyda held her breath. But then Russell shook his head and told Lyda he couldn't make out what Billy was saying. He said he'd be back in a few days to check on them, and Lyda promised to give Billy his medicine in the meantime. Once Dr. Russell was gone, Lyda poured the medicine down the drain instead. She continued to dose Billy with arsenic. And when Dr. Russell returned as promised, he was extremely concerned. Billy was frail and couldn't open his eyes. He was barely breathing. Lyda appeared distraught. She said she'd been doing everything to try and nurse him back to health. Dr. Russell listened to Billy's heartbeat and checked his vitals. He told Lyta that. That Billy wasn't going to make it. Lyda dabbed at her eyes with her handkerchief as Dr. Russell gave her his sympathies. The next day, on October 22, 1918, Billy was dead. Lyda took him back to Twin Falls and had him buried in her family plot, right next to her daughter, Lorraine.
- [30:37]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Her decision to bring Billy back to Twin Falls and bury him there is likely more about risk management. Much in the same way she called in the doctor to evaluate Billy and evaluate Robert, as she was actively poisoning them while simultaneously and strategically influencing their diagnosis. Like dropping hints about the well water or even pretending to be sick alongside Billy. Returning home without Billy would have required an explanation. Either way, by bringing him back, she's eliminating any ambiguity. People know where he was, why he died, and where he was buried. That kind of visibility can also be camouflage for her because it gives a narrative rather than leaving it open. It's a classic example of hiding in plain sight. By this point, it also appears she believed she understood how suspicion worked, and more importantly, how to avoid it. Acting openly may have felt safer than acting evasively for her. And Twin Falls also probably offered her some control. It was her territory, her family plot. It was her history. Familiar environments can give offenders a sense of mastery. And finally, there's a pattern of framing. Emotional tragedy with Lyda that we see after each loss. Each death is presented as unfortunate, tragic, inevitable, or beyond her control. And that narrative repetition is part of how she stabilizes suspicion and maintains her credibility after the fact.
- [32:04]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think burying Billy next to Lorraine might have also been a way to convince people how much she had loved him?
- [32:11]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
I think this is very plausible, especially when we consider what we've already discussed about hiding in plain sight and narrative control. Lyda consistently relied on visible displays of grief to stabilize suspicion. Burying Billy beside her young daughter visually links two losses, and it reinforces the narrative of a woman repeatedly struck by tragedy. That framing invites sympathy instead of scrutiny. It's also culturally expected and to bury family together, which means the act itself reads as loving and appropriate to outsiders who are watching. So at the same time, this choice also fits a broader pattern, again of her controlling the story, especially through ritual, because funerals, burial plots and family spaces create emotional closure for observers, and it tends to discourage follow up questions, especially if people are perceiving her as a grieving widow and mother. So in that sense, the act is strategic. And while this wouldn't qualify as trophy behavior in the traditional sense, like she's not collecting them in that, you know, like a serial killer would and trophies. It's adjacent in an important way, because by deciding where Billy and Robert and Lorraine were buried, Lydia retained control over how their deaths were reframed and remembered and emotionally processed by others. It's not about revisiting the crime for gratification. It's about ownership. And I mentioned earlier, that kind of control was central to how she avoided suspicion.
- [33:44]
Vanessa Richardson
Once Billy was buried in Twin Falls, Lyda returned to Hardin alone. Once she was back, she rummaged through Billy's paperwork, looking for the deed to the ranch, which Billy had left to her. And the Insurance policy. Of course, she found both. But when she scanned the policy, she realized that Billy hadn't made the most recent payment. The policy had lapsed. Lyda rushed to the bank to get a draft note for the overdue amount and sent it off to the insurance company that same day. A week later, Lyda went into the insurance office to make her claim. She dressed in all black and spoke in a hushed, mournful tone. Unfortunately for her, the agent had seen Billy's obituary on the same day her payment arrived at the bank. He told Lyda that they didn't renew policies for people who were already dead. Which meant Lyda got nothing. Since she didn't get the money she was expecting, Lyda decided she simply had to try again. Just six months later, she found her mark. In March 1919, when Lyda was 26 years old, she married a farm machinery salesman named Harlan Lewis. Harlan's business was based in Billings, so they rented an apartment there. Lyda was happy to finally be living in a city. But she still planned to do away with Harlan. Once they were settled in, she asked him to take out a five thousand dollar insurance policy. Harlan agreed, and for the next few months, Lyda kept track of the payments. Then, in July of that year, Lyda allegedly started poisoning her third husband with arsenic from flypaper. When Harlan's symptoms set in, Lyda called another doctor. When he arrived at their apartment, Lyda said Harlan had been suffering from indigestion before catching the flu. The doctor believed her, and when Harlan died a few days later, the doctor listed influenza as his cause of death. As soon as Harlan was buried in Billings, Lyda wasted no time. She successfully cashed out his policy. Then she packed her bags and returned to Twin Falls, where her parents still lived. However, she was still using Billy's last name, McAfee. She didn't tell anyone that she'd gotten married again. Since then, Lyda kept Harlan a complete
- [36:03]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
secret, stemming from what we've already talked about. Her decision to keep her marriage to Harlan a secret was likely for several reasons. Firstly, it keeps her current tragic grieving widow narrative alive in Twin Falls, Idaho. A new marriage, especially so soon, would disrupt that story and invite questions that she had every incentive to avoid. Second, secrecy limited the number of people who could connect patterns. Each additional marriage increases traceability, like insurance policies, timelines, names, paperwork, and it increases suspicion. Fewer witnesses means fewer dots to connect. And lastly, which we discussed again previously, she's becoming more sophisticated each time. She learns, she refines. This was about containment.
- [36:55]
Vanessa Richardson
Even though Lyda returned to Twin Falls, she didn't move back into her family's ranch. Instead, she used her newfound wealth to rent out a room in the swanky Roberson Hotel downtown. Lyda wasn't afraid to flaunt her wealth. She bought herself nice clothes, a car, and spent her time at parties and dances. As far as anyone knew, Lyda was a young widow twice over who'd spent enough time mourning her losses. No one blamed her for enjoying herself, especially since she returned to her old job at the Grill Cafe. To them, she clearly still had a sense of responsibility. No one knew she was a cold blooded killer who was only getting better at her crimes. And pretty soon, Lyda set her sights on her biggest target yet. But the greedier she became, the more people around her started to catch on.
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Sarah Turney
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Vanessa Richardson
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Courtney Nicole
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
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Vanessa Richardson
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
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Dr. Tristan Ingalls
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Vanessa Richardson
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- [39:13]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Some crimes are shocking, some are unthinkable, and some stay with you long after the headlines fade. I'm Grace, host of Redrum True Crime Podcast. Join me as I dive deep into some of the Most shocking crimes. Fiona Beale seemed like any other primary school teacher until the day she became the last person anyone expected to commit murder. What drove her to the edge and what really happened behind closed doors, her diary entries would tell police all they needed to know or dive into the tragic case of Nada Altuntolli. Nada was a devoted mother. But one night in the house she called home, her life was destroyed by one person she trusted the most. Her own family member. From twisted family betrayals to the darkest corners of human obsession, Redrum dives deep into real crimes. The victims, the suspects, and the haunting aftermath. With two brand new episodes every single week, Redrum. R E D R U M that's murder backwards.
- [40:18]
Vanessa Richardson
By the summer of 1920, 27 year old Lyda, current last name McAfee, had killed four men and collected about $9,000 from their life insurance policies. After killing her latest husband, Harlan Lewis, who. Who no one knew about, Lyda returned to Twin Falls, Idaho and started working her old job at the Grill Cafe. It was there that she met a ranch foreman named Ed Meyer. He was tall and handsome and Lyda couldn't wait to make him her next victim. Just like she'd done before. She convinced Ed she was a vulnerable, helpless woman in need of a strong husband to take care of her. And it worked like a charm. In August of 1920, she and Ed got married. However, they didn't tell anyone about their union. It's possible that Lyda convinced Ed she wanted her privacy after everything she'd been through. She may have also persuaded him by telling him she had land in Montana she wanted him to manage. Ed agreed. He couldn't believe what he'd lucked into. But before they packed their bags, Lyda asked him to take out a life insurance. Insurance policy this time for a whopping $10,000. That would be just over $160,000 today. It was an unusually large sum. But Ed didn't question Lyda, not after all the instability she'd endured. He took out the policy. And then they made way for Montana. Just three weeks after arriving at the ranch, which Lyda had inherited from her second husband, husband Billy. She poured some arsenic water into a can of green beans and fed it to Ed. Soon became so ill he had to be taken to the hospital. Once he was settled into a room there, Lyda left and checked herself into a nice hotel in town. She told anyone who asked that Ed had been diagnosed with typhoid. And the doctor recommended she only visit her Husband briefly. Over the next few days, Lyda checked on Ed in the hospital. While the nurses backs were turned. She gave him arsenic laced water. Eventually, the nurses noticed that Ed always plummeted when his wife visited and slowly improved while she was gone. But before anyone could do anything about it, Ed succumbed to his illness and died. The medical team disagreed over Ed's cause of death. One of them thought he had typhoid, while another believed it was food poisoning. So they decided to perform an autopsy. And in the meantime, one of Lyda's biggest secrets got out. Somehow people in Twin Falls learned about her previous marriage to Harlan Lewis up in Montana. And they were completely shocked. All along they'd believed Lyta was a tragic soul just looking for love and happiness. But now that they knew she had not three, but four husbands who had mysteriously died in quick succession, they thought all the tragedy around Lyda might be more than coincidence. Things got even worse for Lyda when Ed's autopsy results came in. While there were signs of typhoid in his system, there was something else too. Chemical burns inside his throat. The kind of burns that occur when someone swallows poison. The doctors now realized that Ed didn't die from an illness. He'd possibly been killed, perhaps by his own wife. Soon the authorities stepped in. Twin Falls county prosecutor Frank Steffen needed to get to the bottom of things. However, he also knew he had to be careful. If the rumors about Lyda got out of hand, it might encourage people to take justice into their own hands. So Stefan kept his investigation quiet. He kept Ed's autopsy results sealed and released his body for burial. Lyda thought she was off the hook. But she knew it was only a matter of time before the rumors got out of hand. So she buried Ed in her family's plot next to Lorraine and her second husband, Billy. Then she packed her things, climbed into her car and left town.
- [44:32]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
She then.
- [44:32]
Vanessa Richardson
She didn't even try to claim the insurance money. She simply kept driving all the way to the west coast, where she had a friend living in San Francisco.
- [44:44]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
At this point, Lida's been exposed. Or at least she likely perceived that she had been. The strategies she previously relied on to manage suspicion were no longer working. Staying visible, maintaining routine, or attempting narrative control now carried more risk than benefit. Her behavior with Ed, particularly continuing to poison him in the hospital, is another escalation because it suggests growing confidence and possibly an underestimation of even the changing medical standards that were happening. Her earlier victims were not hospitalized despite their deterioration and she had successfully avoided scrutiny then that history may have emboldened her to believe that she could adapt and remain undetected, even in a more controlled and highly supervised medical environment. But this time, the environment shifted beyond her control, because once the nurses began noticing patterns and an autopsy was performed, that changed things. Her decision to leave quickly without even cashing the life insurance policy is a response to that. And as we've discussed, financial gain had been a central motivator for lida. So walking away from it suggests that the perceived risk was simply too high for her. And what's striking here is what this tells us about her psychological functioning. This behavior suggests intact reality testing, and it suggests restraint rather than panic and the ability to reassess risk and adapt accordingly. She didn't double down. She withdrew. And that's adaptability. It's more than impulsivity. It's more than emotional dysregulation. It's what allowed her to evade detection for as long as she did. She was once again thinking ahead.
- [46:29]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think it's possible that it was maybe the rumors themselves that were just so bad that she just had to leave?
- [46:35]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yes, very much so. Because I think for someone like Lyda, rumors were exposure, as we, you know, touched on. She relied on narrative control and credibility to blend in and hide in plain sight. And once suspicion and speculation enter the picture, that credibility is impacted. Even if the talk isn't about specific actions, like she killed her husbands intentionally, but about her character. And that matters because when character becomes the focus, I think that can weaken her cover. People begin replaying and subsequently reinterpreting past events. They start scrutinizing them more closely and questioning anything about her that had felt ordinary before. And when people start talking, her control begins to slip. And in that scenario, the most efficient solution, I think, in her mind, is distance. Which is why moving far enough away that no one knows her history is a attractive to her because it allows her to reset the narrative and start again somewhere new, somewhere fresh, where no one, again, no one knows her. Even if people will still be wondering why this, you know, young, single woman left home to live with her friend. That's a rumor mill she can work with. It's better than the one she's leaving behind.
- [47:48]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, whatever Lyda's thought process might have been, her escape only cleared the way for Frank Stefan to investigate Ed Meyer's death and the rest of her husbands, her brother in law and her daughter. As a first step, he enlisted the help of Deputy Virgil Ormsby who'd gone to high school with Lyda. Ormsby went to the ranch where Lyda had lived with Robert Dooley, their daughter Lorraine and Robert's brother. Five years earlier, it was believed that all three had died from either food poisoning or typhoid from the well water. But when Ormsby had the well tested, it showed no signs of typhoid bacteria. Ormsby, he kept digging from there. He spoke to a few people who knew Lyda, both in Idaho and Montana. And when he spoke to shopkeepers in both states, they told him something strange. They said Lyda had purchased large amounts of fly paper. Ormsby wondered if Lyda had used the arsenic in the flypaper to poison her family. So while he was in Montana, he went to the ranch where she'd lived with Billy McAfee to see if any clothes clues had been left behind. In the basement, Ormsby found stacks of fly paper stuffed into a barrel, along with a pot that had been stashed in a corner. Ormsby was taken aback by the sheer amount of used fly paper. And when he had the pot tested for arsenic, the results showed trace amounts left behind. It was starting to seem more and more like Lyta had poisoned her family and tried to hide the evidence. Now, the cause of death for all of Lyda's husbands was in doubt. So Frank Stephan ordered for all of Lyda's deceased loved ones to be exhumed and tested for arsenic. Evidence of arsenic can be found on people's bodies and every single man had that mark on their organs, bones, hair or fingernails. Stefan was now certain that they had all been deliberately poisoned to death. The only person who showed no sign of arsenic poisoning was Lyda's daughter, Lorraine. However, that didn't mean there were no signs of foul play, because when her body was exhumed, authorities noticed that when she died, she'd been shockingly underweight for a two year old. Frank Steffen was horrified. Had Lyda deliberately starved her own child?
- [50:12]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
All right, so I'm going to discuss the psychology behind someone who can starve their own child to death. And this is a very sensitive topic. So this is a trigger warning and you're cue to skip ahead if it's a little too sensitive for you. This is one of the most difficult behaviors to sit with. And it's important to approach it without sensationalism and certainly without oversimplification. Psychologically, this type of harm is rarely about momentary anger or loss of control. Obviously, it can't be because starvation is sustained and systemic. Instead, it's more often associated with severe emotional detachment where the child is no longer experienced as a dependent person with needs, but as a burden or an obstacle, or in some cases a means to an end. The caregiving bond that typically triggers protection is disrupted. And I think that was evident with Lyda when she married Robert and began a caregiving role with him and Ed, her brother in law. When someone views relationships as transactional, a child could be seen similarly. Infants can intensify disengagement in individuals who are highly selfish or outcome oriented. There's also often a strong element of moral disengagement. They tend to minimize, rationalize or reframe harm. Starvation in particular, allows distance, much like poisoning does. Starvation, much like poisoning, also happens gradually and quietly. And importantly though, this behavior, starving a child, does not require severe mental illness like psychosis, which I think people often assume. Lida isn't psychotic. In many starvation cases, we often see individuals who have rigid self centeredness, emotional compartmentalization and a prioritization of personal needs or goals that supersede a child's survival. And ultimately what makes this possible, starving a child is truly just significant moral and emotional disengagement over a very long sustained period of time.
- [52:29]
Vanessa Richardson
Does a killer's psychology differ when a child's death is the result of neglect or deprivation rather than direct violence?
- [52:39]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yes, but the key difference is how the harm is psychologically managed. Death through neglect happens through inaction rather than like confrontation, which makes it easier for the person to disengage emotionally and morally over time. Unlike direct violence, which requires an active crossing of a boundary, neglect based deaths unfold gradually. The caregiver suppresses responsiveness, normalizes deprivation and minimizes their responsibility in all of it. The harm becomes ordinary in background rather than one specific event. Neglect is often associated with severe detachment, like I mentioned, and disrupted attachment process, where a child may be experienced more as an object than a dependent person. But by contrast, direct abuse, like physical abuse, is more likely to involve habituation to pain by the abuser and more overt forms of aggression where the act itself becomes normalized through repetition. Remember, abuse is learned behavior. So typically physical abuse is abuse that had been learned by the abuser, that has become normalized through repetition and is now being modeled to a child.
- [53:58]
Vanessa Richardson
As far as Frank Stephan was concerned, it was Lyda's fault that Lorraine died. And by April 22, 1921, he was ready to bring charges against against her for all six victims. However, when deputies Showed up at Lyda's parents home in Twin Falls to arrest her. Her parents said they hadn't seen her. No one had. There was no sign of Lyda anywhere, which meant there was a cold blooded killer out there. And she was on the lookout for more victims. Foreign. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for the conclusion of our deep dive into Lida Southard. But before we get out of here, I'd like to welcome Sarah and Court back to talk to Dr. Engels about their backgrounds and their amazing show, the final hours.
- [55:02]
Sarah Turney
Thank you, Vanessa. Dr. Angles, court and I are so excited to chat with you.
- [55:06]
Courtney Nicole
Yes, thank you so much. We love your work. Thank you for sitting down with us.
- [55:10]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
The pleasure is all mine. I'm a big fan of both of you as well, and I really appreciate your openness about your histories and how that's affected your work in true crime. And on that note, for any listeners who aren't familiar with you, I'd love to talk more about your backgrounds and get into the psychological impact of those. Those experiences.
- [55:29]
Sarah Turney
Yeah, I mean, I was never into true crime. I know that's kind of like a taboo a little bit. Right?
- [55:33]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
It's not for everyone.
- [55:35]
Sarah Turney
Yeah, I was just never really into it. But I have a missing sister. You know, she went missing in 2001 when she was 17. And I'd been the family contact since I was a teenager. And at one point, her detective sat me down and said that getting media exposure was the best path for her case. So that's how I got started in true crime. I went on ton of podcasts, you know, YouTube channels, everything I could. And I was highly encouraged to start my own podcast, Voices for Justice. So that's. That's really how I got here.
- [56:03]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
When was it that they asked you to do the media exposure? How long did it take for you to get into media?
- [56:08]
Sarah Turney
Oh, goodness. It was not easy. They asked me about 18 years after she went missing.
- [56:13]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah.
- [56:14]
Vanessa Richardson
Yeah.
- [56:14]
Sarah Turney
And you know, I had, like, worked in nonprofit and with kids in foster care. You know, I had a little bit of marketing experience, but I certainly was not into the media. So it was a brand new world for me.
- [56:25]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah. Media wasn't huge back in 2001.
- [56:28]
Sarah Turney
Oh, yeah, I know. And there was no coverage on her case.
- [56:30]
Courtney Nicole
Zero.
- [56:31]
Sarah Turney
For years.
- [56:32]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah, I hadn't heard about it until TikTok, actually. And you bringing it to the forefront like that. And a lot of cases are being brought to the forefront by voices like yours, especially on social media.
- [56:42]
Sarah Turney
Yeah, TikTok was huge for me. I just posted a video that I felt was really cringe and it's still very embarrassing, but it went viral and, you know, it helped her case, so it's worth it.
- [56:52]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
In what ways has it helped?
- [56:53]
Sarah Turney
I mean, it's helped more people, you know, find her, and it certainly brought in a barrage of tips and leads.
- [56:59]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Wow.
- [57:00]
Sarah Turney
You know, I wish I could say that they've all led to something, but, you know, I have to believe, believe that we're getting closer every day.
- [57:05]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And what is any kind of psychological impact of bringing that to the forefront as you being the voice for her? What kind of impact has that had on you? Positive or negative?
- [57:15]
Sarah Turney
I mean, I think a little bit of both. Right. I think the community of it all has been extremely positive for me. Having what feels like the whole world rallying around me and my sister has been really comforting and reassuring, but certainly, like having my whole life in the public eye, you know, that's not always fun.
- [57:32]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
You get positive and negative reactions. I'm sure online as online can be a hostile place as well.
- [57:38]
Sarah Turney
Yeah, I do feel blessed. Most people are very kind, but you do get the occasional comment, you know, that's negative or just mean.
- [57:45]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And what about your family? Are they supportive of you being online?
- [57:48]
Sarah Turney
Some are, some aren't. You know, I think for some of them it's embarrassing. We're also a big family. You know, I'm one of six siblings.
- [57:55]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Oh, wow.
- [57:55]
Sarah Turney
So everybody has their own minds and thoughts and feelings, but for the most part, you know, they understand why I do it.
- [58:01]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
When you've gone as long as you have without any real closure, you know, you haven't found your sister, you don't know where she is. That's something called ambiguous loss and ambiguous grief. And that can be very difficult for loved ones and friends and communities that are affected by that kind of loss. How have you been navigating that?
- [58:22]
Sarah Turney
Oh, gosh. I mean, you know, day by day. And I certainly have my coping mechanisms, but it's just like you said, that ambiguous loss is just something that I've had to come to terms with, that I'm going to deal with probably for the rest of my life.
- [58:36]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah.
- [58:37]
Vanessa Richardson
Yeah.
- [58:37]
Sarah Turney
So, I mean, I think I just tried to take it day by day and, you know, some days it's horrible, but most days, you know, I get along all right.
- [58:45]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
I think it's remarkable that you're turning that ambiguous loss into meaning making like you're looking for meaning out of this. And what you're doing is Helping other people and helping your sister and her memory and her legacy. And I think that's amazing. And tell us about yourself, Court, and your story.
- [59:03]
Courtney Nicole
So, my story started when I was 12 years old. I found out that someone I was really, really close with in my family, my grandma, she committed a very violent crime. And up until that point, I was very close with her. So when I found this out, it was shocking. And I remember that day like it was yesterday, honestly, when I looked up what she did, I got really sick to my stomach, and I actually, like, laid on my mom's lap, and I was just. It was just very shocking.
- [59:30]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So, Court, what did you actually find out, if you're comfortable sharing?
- [59:34]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah, so I found out in 1990. So before I was born, my grandma, you know, she snapped, and she ended up killing her mom. So my great grandma. This was before I was born, so I never met my great grandma. But that day, she was taking care of her mom, and details from the past came up, and it kind of spurred memories from my grandma's childhood. I guess from my grandma's perspective, she was really abused as a child by many of her stepdads. And so that day, the conversation came up, and my great grandma. So her mom pretty much blamed her for the abuse and not her stepdads. And so I guess this sent my grandma into a rage. And from her words, she blacked out, and she ended up killing my great grandma. And then going forward, she, you know, instead of calling the police like one might think to do, she ended up dismembering my great grandma. And she put her body parts into garbage cans and filled them up with concrete and then hid those in a storage unit in my hometown for two entire years. So it was pretty crazy. During those two years, she pretended to be my great grandma. She would write my family letters pretending to be her, basically saying that my great grandma was, you know, in Hawaii on vacation with this wealthy man she met. And it's crazy because I still have some of those letters, so sometimes I'll just go back and reread them. And it's just crazy to know the truth now versus what everyone thought back then.
- [61:05]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So she was impersonating. She was impersonating to make everyone believe she was alive and well and thriving, when, in fact, that was not the case.
- [61:12]
Vanessa Richardson
Yeah.
- [61:12]
Courtney Nicole
And for the most part, a lot of people believed it. There were some people, surprisingly, my great grandma's neighbors, I think, were not really buying what my grandma was saying.
- [61:23]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
They were suspicious.
- [61:24]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah, they were a little bit suspicious. And so she kept that up, though, for two years. And then at the end of the two years, I think those neighbors were really kind of pushing for my grandma to be investigated. And so she ended up actually confessing and turning herself in. And yeah, there was a trial. Shockingly, she actually only got two years in prison. So. Yeah. So she's for that type of crime. I feel like that's a little bit low.
- [61:48]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
That's very low. Do you know what she was charged with with?
- [61:50]
Courtney Nicole
I think it was second degree murder.
- [61:52]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Okay. They might have dropped her charges or she took a plea deal or something.
- [61:56]
Courtney Nicole
Yes. So she. I think it. It was really honed in the. I think it was the battered woman effect.
- [62:02]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Even though the battered woman defense.
- [62:04]
Courtney Nicole
Defense. Yes.
- [62:05]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
But she's not battered by a man.
- [62:07]
Courtney Nicole
No. And so I think it. I think the argument really was when my grandma was going through all of that abuse as a child, it kind of stunted her. Her emotional and like, mental growth. And so past that point, she didn't really, like, mature, I guess I would say.
- [62:22]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Did she have a psychological evaluation?
- [62:25]
Courtney Nicole
I think so. But yeah, they really kind of like honed in on the battered woman effect. Even though now years had passed since she had been abused. She is now in her 40s. Last time she was abused, it was like when she was a child, like a young child. And so, yeah, she.
- [62:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Interesting.
- [62:41]
Courtney Nicole
She ended up getting two years.
- [62:42]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
And she served the full two years.
- [62:44]
Courtney Nicole
Served the full two years. She ended up having to pay a fine. So another. Another aspect to this that some people might have thought was the motive was financial.
- [62:53]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
I wondered about that.
- [62:54]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah. And so a lot of my grandma's siblings and. And a lot of her family, they do believe it was money motivated. So during that two years, she was like, cashing Social Security checks. Yeah. And then she ended up selling my. My great grandma had a house, a second house, and my grandma ended up selling that. I'm not sure how, but she ended up selling that and she got to basically keep $140,000. So a lot of people think that was the motive. She ended up having to pay that back. So in the end, she, you know, didn't make anything, but.
- [63:26]
Vanessa Richardson
Yeah.
- [63:26]
Courtney Nicole
And ever since then, she's been out living her life in the same community, the same exact house as when the crime took place. It's not well talked about in my hometown at all. And if you didn't know my grandma to used, you wouldn't think she would be capable of doing something like that.
- [63:40]
Sarah Turney
Wow.
- [63:40]
Courtney Nicole
So it was very interesting to learn at 12 I will say if you look online, there's bare bones information, like two news articles basically about it. And so basically how I got started in the creator aspect in this community was at 21, I made a 15 second TikTok about this story and it ended up blowing up. And people kept asking me questions that I just really didn't have the answer to. Nobody in my family talked about it again, I was left with the two news articles, so I didn't have much to go off of. And that kind of got me interested, like, what, Is there anything more to this that I'm not being told? And so at 21, 22, I ended up getting all of the case files from back when it happened. And it was like seven, eight bins full of information. And from doing that, I learned so much information and, you know, kind of made me understand that not everything is as you think it is. Like, and some of, even some of that information, that, that little information that was put out in news articles was not correct. And so it's crazy that there's. There's just always so much more than what you see online, basically.
- [64:44]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Absolutely. Is that what possessed you to want to go online is to find out the truth because your family wasn't giving it to you necessarily, or no one was talking about it and you were seeking truth on your own or what really brought you to social media with your story?
- [64:57]
Courtney Nicole
Honestly, not really. It was just this weird thing about my family history that I grew up with. So honestly, when I made that first video, it. It wasn't like, so to speak, normal to me because obviously that's not a normal thing to like, grow up with, but I was just so, like, numb to the story basically. So it wasn't anything like shocking at that point. But honestly, really what made me turn to social media was I was on maternity leave at home, I was a little bit bored. I only had a baby to talk to.
- [65:25]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Aw. Yeah.
- [65:26]
Vanessa Richardson
So.
- [65:27]
Courtney Nicole
And then I came across a TikTok of this guy that I think his video started out with. Like, how many of you know someone that has killed another person? And I was like, hey, wait a minute, like, I do, you know, and it's my grandma. And so I, I think at that point I had 40 followers on TikTok, and it was mainly my friends and family. And I was like, nobody's actually gonna see this. And at that point, nobody growing up in my life had ever heard this story coming out of my mouth. And so I was like, you know what? No one's gonna see It, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do it. It's 15 seconds. Let's see what happens. And it actually didn't blow up right away. I think it took like two weeks. And then I was out of town and my phone started blowing up and the video just went viral and it was very surreal. I didn't think anybody, anybody would care, honestly.
- [66:11]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So how old were you when you took to social media with this? So it's how much time has passed since 12 and like when you actually went online.
- [66:18]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah, so I found out at 12 years old what happened. And then I started posting about it, I think 22 years old.
- [66:23]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So it's been over a decade.
- [66:25]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah.
- [66:25]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
That you've been holding this secret. You said nobody in your, no one, none of your friends have ever known this. So do you think holding that secret was a big weight for you that you just felt like, I think I need to get this off my chest, I need to shift. That was driving it, I would say a little bit.
- [66:42]
Courtney Nicole
I, I, it's just like a big part of my childhood, honestly, growing up, and I felt like I couldn't tell anybody about it. I was afraid of getting bullied by kids in school and I literally didn't even tell my childhood best friend, any boyfriends that I have had up until that point. I didn't say a single word. And so it just felt like nobody knew the real me, I guess, even though, you know, I obviously wasn't the one that committed the crime. It's not technically like my story, it's just a story in my family. I just felt like nobody knew me and I don't know, it just, it felt like saying those words, it just kind of rolled off the tongue. But then when the story started blowing up, when I posted it, it felt like I guess I could connect with a lot of people that I previously never would have.
- [67:25]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Definitely this is the ripple effect of crime that people don't really consider is that somebody commits a crime and the ripple effect reaches not just, you know, the immediate victims, their communities, the families, the friends. And it lasts for generations. It's generational and it's far reaching and people don't think about that. And like you mentioned, you were afraid to share the secret. There are family members of even serial killers who don't even know that their family member is a serial killer. They get caught and the family members are bullied, they get death threats, they don't even know anything is going on. It's kind of similar. Like you were afraid to Even share this. You're afraid of being judged. You're afraid of being guilty by association. You had absolutely nothing to do with this. You weren't even born yet. Yet you're carrying guilt and responsibility for someone else's actions. So it's very different, too, than Sarah's. Sarah has ambiguous grief because there's no closure for her loss. In your case, you know what happened. Your grandmother has owned up to it. It sounds like. She pled guilty, it sounds like. But yet there's still grief for you. There's still a lot of psychological impact there. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that differs and what that's like for you and your family?
- [68:44]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah, I feel like every single person in my family has dealt with it a little bit differently. I guess the only person that I feel like sadness for, I guess, is my dad, because my dad has always been. Been a mama's boy. And so that's her son. That's her son. Yeah. And so, yeah, he has always been a mama's boy. Even today, like, they are. They are so close.
- [69:07]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Oh, they remain a close relationship. Oh, wow.
- [69:10]
Courtney Nicole
That's another thing that I feel like is a little bit interesting, because if you were to go up to my dad, he defends her to the fullest. Like, and I know that's, like, controversial,
- [69:19]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
you know, that's cognitive dissonance, you know.
- [69:22]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah. And a lot of people or say, like, murder is never okay. But, you know, my dad, he still defends her, even till this day. But he. I feel. I feel sadness for him because he has never really talked to me about what that experience must have been like for him, which obviously, that's really hard. Like, the one person that you're closest to did something like that. And then I'm pretty sure he was also really close with my great grandma as well. So, you know, in an instant, two people that you're really close with are just, like, gone and never the same.
- [69:50]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Oh, wow. Yeah.
- [69:50]
Courtney Nicole
But it's really, really sad because he's never really opened up about it. But. But once I got those case files and I was looking through everything, I almost got to see things from, like, his perspective a little bit, like, what he was going through. So, for example, like, during those two years that my great grandma was, you know, alive but in Hawaii, like, you know, missing, so to speak, he would go to, I don't know, try and track down any information he could to see if she was actually okay. Like, right before she was killed, she, I think, leased a brand new Car. I don't remember what kind of car it was, but she leased a brand new car, and it was something she was really excited about. And my dad, when she kind of, like, when things started adding up, like something's actually not quite right, he went to the dealership and was like, have you seen this woman? Like, wow.
- [70:33]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So he knew.
- [70:34]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah, he, like, I think deep down, he noticed it.
- [70:36]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah.
- [70:37]
Courtney Nicole
And so that makes me sad. It's like a different perspective once you get the case files.
- [70:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Like, he was looking for certainty.
- [70:42]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah.
- [70:42]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you both so much for sharing. I know it's not always easy to do, but I can see a lot of that passion come through in the final hours. Let's talk more about the show and what drew you in.
- [70:56]
Sarah Turney
Well, I think what's really cool about the final hours is that we're digging in deeper. Right. We want to go an extra layer into why people do what they do and those last moments, things that might seem mundane but can make a big difference in a case.
- [71:10]
Courtney Nicole
So I think one of the biggest things that drew me in is I'm always interested in the last basically 24 hours before a crime is committed, before someone goes missing, before or someone is killed. Because those are the moments where one little tiny thing, if it's just, you know, out of their typical routine, they can get overlooked. And with fresh eyes, like Sarah and I, when we look back, you know, we can kind of analyze every single last little detail.
- [71:35]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
What kind of details are you looking for in the final hours? What stands out to you?
- [71:39]
Sarah Turney
Everything. Yeah, I mean, that's the way I like to do it. I like to look at absolutely everything that I can. But like Kourt said, I think it's those last hours, too, you know, specifically, like, what led up to this? What were they doing? Were they planning on going about their day? Those things are so important.
- [71:55]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So in your first episode, Jennifer Kessie, and you went through the final hours, what was the first detail that popped out at you that you zeroed in on? We'll start with you, Sarah.
- [72:04]
Sarah Turney
Yeah. I mean, I think, again, it goes back to, like, what she was doing right before she went missing. I mean, she was ready to go to work. She brought everything that she needed with her. Like, this is a woman who was just trying to go about her day, and all of a sudden, she's gone.
- [72:19]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Nothing was abnormal. Everything looked typical.
- [72:21]
Sarah Turney
Yeah. I mean, right. She had a small fight with her boyfriend. You know, they were on vacation, but they. They planned to mend it. So there's the small things in there that are a little abnormal.
- [72:31]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Okay.
- [72:32]
Sarah Turney
But again, she had plans for not only that day, but the future.
- [72:36]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
So she's future oriented. Everything was more on routine.
- [72:40]
Sarah Turney
Yeah.
- [72:40]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Anything that stand out for you?
- [72:42]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah, I would say two things, specifically. One is that she disappeared in the early morning hours when everybody is typically up and going to their cars to go to work. And so that really stuck out to me because it's just terrifying to think that you could be going about your typical routine just like you do every single day. You, more than likely in her case, could be surrounded by people going into work in the morning, and all of a sudden your life is turned upside down and you go missing. So I think that's the biggest thing that stuck out to me. And then the second thing I would say is what's interesting about her case is the likely suspect was technically caught on camera. However, it's just so frustrating because he was walking behind a fence, and so with each frame, his face just so happened to be blocked.
- [73:27]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Oh, of course.
- [73:28]
Sarah Turney
So it always happens that way.
- [73:31]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
I know, right?
- [73:32]
Courtney Nicole
Yeah. So it's like you have this big piece of evidence that. That could potentially help you, but at the end of the day, it's kind of useless because his face is blocked. So that's the second detail that really stood out to me, is it's just scary, you know, going missing. Well, at any point, obviously, but especially in the morning when you're surrounded by people. And then second, when you're. You're. The suspect could be caught on camera, but there's just nothing that can be done to figure out who he was and track him down.
- [73:58]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
How does this impact both of you who have dealt with loss and mystery in some ways, especially you, Sarah, with an ongoing case of somebody disappearing and that you. That you love, that's your sister and not knowing what happened. And now you've got this podcast where you're trying to solve these mysteries for other people. Do you. Does that impact you? Can you compartmentalize? Is it also meaning making for you? Like, how do you manage that?
- [74:23]
Sarah Turney
Yeah. So it's hard, but for me, I feel like I'm making a difference. Right. I have a very maybe idealistic mindset. Something feels bad, you work towards making it better. And that makes me feel good that I'm doing something to help help. Instead of just, like, being sad about all these cases, it is really healing for me, not only just to do it for myself, but, again, to, like, further my sister's legacy.
- [74:44]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Same for you, Cord.
- [74:45]
Courtney Nicole
I'm guessing same for me. And I feel like having this unique perspective, it just makes me go about telling these stories in like a softer way. I would say it's not just another story to me that I want to hurry up and push out like I genuinely care because because I've lived through something similar.
- [75:02]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Well, it's really fascinating case and I can't recommend the final hours enough and everyone needs to go follow the show if you aren't already. I know I'll be listening every week. And for those who haven't gotten to check it out yet, can you tell us where to find it?
- [75:16]
Sarah Turney
Of course. The Final Hours is audio only for now, so find us on your favorite podcasting platform. Just search the final hours new episodes out every Monday starting February 22nd and
- [75:27]
Courtney Nicole
it would mean so much to us if you liked, followed and reviewed the show. It really helps us build the community so we can bring awareness to as many cases as possible.
- [75:35]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Sarah Court, thanks so much again for joining us and I hope we can chat again soon. It's time for us to get out of here, so would you do me the honor of taking us out?
- [75:46]
Sarah Turney
Absolutely. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media Rimehouse. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and
- [76:08]
Courtney Nicole
to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content.
- [76:22]
Vanessa Richardson
Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzovsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Heather Dundas, Sarah Tardiff and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. Amazon presents Laura vs Fruit Flies hide your bananas. These winged demons came to your kitchen to do two things. Eat fruit and and they're all out of fruit. But thankfully Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes and fly traps.
- [77:21]
Dr. Tristan Ingalls
Hey fruit flies. Your baby boom ends here.
- [77:26]
Vanessa Richardson
Save the everyday with Amazon. Hi, it's Vanessa. If you're drawn to true crime stories about disappearances, check out the new Crime House original the Final Hours, hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Listen to and follow the Final Hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday.