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Kinda Funny Gamescast: Video Game Podcast
Caroline Polachek Interview: Death Stranding 2, Kojima, and New Music - Kinda Funny Gamescast
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- [00:00]
Caroline Polachek
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Roger
What is up everybody? And welcome to a very special kind of funny Gamescast. It's finally happened. I had the pleasure of sitting down with one of the most talented vocalists and musicians working today, Caroline Polachek. My fiance introduced me to her Music in 2019 with Caroline's first solo album, Pang and and since then, I don't think one week has passed without me listening to a Caroline song. Her music means the world to me and it was so exciting to get the chance to sit down with her and chat. Caroline is joining me on the Gamescast because her and producer Danielle Harle have created the title song for Death Stranding 2 entitled on the Beach. But more importantly to the context of this podcast and show, and kinda funny as a whole, this all happened because I gave Hideo Kojima a copy of her latest album, Desire I Want to Turn into youo. And. And it kicked off a chain of events that I still cannot fully believe. No, that's not a joke. I gave Kojima her album, he listened to it and then he fast tracked the creation of a song with her to become the title track of Death Stranding 2 Wild. So Caroline and I break down the insanity of that. What it's like working with Hideo making music as a non video gamer in a video game. And of course I gotta ask her about her next album. It's a conversation that even if you're not a fan of hers yet, I think you're going to really enjoy it. Thank you to our sponsor, Shady Rays, our Patreon producers, Karl Jacobs, Omega Buster and Delaney Twining. But without further ado, here's my first ever conversation with the great Caroline Polacek. Enjoy. Caroline Polachek, thank you so much for joining us on the kind of Funny Gamescast. I'm Roger. Nice to meet you, Roger.
- [01:52]
Caroline Polachek
It's so nice to meet you too. I know you from Twitter at this point, so it's nice to meet you face to face.
- [01:58]
Roger
That makes me so happy because I was nervous going into this interview of like, how much do you know? Like how much about the story do you know? Like, it's hard to tell and hard to grasp. So thank you so much again for taking the time and making this happen.
- [02:10]
Caroline Polachek
It's a really cool thank you. Well, I'm excited for you to tell me the story today, but I'm sort of reverse engineering it because I had a lot of people when I announced that I was doing this song thanking you and then I had to sort of work backwards and realize that you at some point are the one that put Kojima onto my music.
- [02:30]
Roger
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you just want the story? Like, we could just give me the story. Yeah. Okay. So it's a weird one. I am not a big, big games media person. Like, I'm not like a hotshot or anything like that. But we had the amazing opportunity in August. So the end of August, like August 28th, I believe, or 27th for myself, my coworker Blessing and my fiance got to tag along, which was super cool to go to Japan. And while we were there, we had the amazing opportunity of actually going to Kojima Productions. So that was incredible. So the end there. And the reason that that actually happened was Kojima is friends with Greg, the founder of this company, and he was able to get Kojima to record the intro to our studio, the Spare Bedroom, when we launched it in October. So that was baller and super cool. And we wanted to. When we went to Kojima Productions, we went to Japan. We wanted to give him a gift. So that's kind of where this all came from. So the idea behind the gift is like, okay, what do you get Hideo Kojima, like the guy that has literally everything, right? So we.
- [03:33]
Caroline Polachek
And the guy who knows everything as well, literally, right?
- [03:36]
Roger
So our idea was to kind of put him on, right? To find our favorite things, our favorite movies, our favorite books, what have you. And we each chose. All 11 of us at the company chose we one piece of media, right? So Blessing chose the Challengers dvd. So he was very excited. Kojima was very excited about that. So I, of course, chose your album Desire. I want to turn it into you. And just like the backstory behind that and the reason I chose it is a lot of people have been like, tagging me specifically, but it's mostly it's me and my fiance, Lianza. Lianza and I. It's our. Your albums, Peng and Desire, I Want to Turn into youo are like the soundtrack to our independence, right? Like, it is the. Those are both the albums that Pang came out right as we met and we started falling in love. And then as we were moving out and we went into. We moved to Brooklyn, Bunny as a rider came out, which was the, like, it was the first song. This is the weirdest thing in the world, but it's the first song that our cat heard when we adopted our cat that we put on. Bunny is a rider. And she was lighting up and running around, which that was a very special moment for us. And then when we actually, we stayed there for a year because it was A while between Bunny and Desire. If I. If I'm not mistaken, it was.
- [04:47]
Caroline Polachek
It was a year and a half.
- [04:48]
Roger
Exactly right. Because a year and a half after that, we moved to California, and that's where I live right now. That is the dream job that I have right here, where I get to talk about video games all day and moved across the country. And then Desire came out, and we saw you live at Terminal 5, and we saw you live in San Francisco. So it was. It's an album. And your music just means a lot to us. So I absolutely, as soon as I had this opportunity, I was like, yep, getting Desire. And I know that. I know he's going to love it, but, like, I would talk to people and I would be like, okay, like pie in the sky. He listens to it, like. But he. You know, he's. Kojima. He's busy. He's doing a billion things. He's probably not going to listen to it, right? So we actually have the video of us, like, giving him the gift. And you've met Kojima, you know him. He's very excited about things. So he, as soon as he heard there was a gift, like, busted open the doors and, like, opened up the. Open up the gift. And he was, like, looking through it. All right, so that was. That's your album, right at the top. We made sure we stacked the deck. The deck in your favor. We made sure to put your album at top because Lianza was putting it together. And he looks at your album, but he kind of goes through everything, right? And he's like, not really. Like, you know, his eyes aren't peeking at anything other than kind of the. The Challengers dvd. But then at the ending, yeah, he gets excited right there. But at the ending of it all, he goes through it all one more time, right? So he's. He's looking through it all. And I kind of knew this was my only chance to, like, get in his ear. So I look at Aki, someone that works with his translator at that moment, and I was like, hey, Kojima would specifically love this album. Like, Caroline is an amazing artist, and she's incredible. He would love this album. And he looks at it as you're seeing right now. He kind of shakes his head and kind of puts it aside, right? Just moves on. And I'm like, okay, that's it. That's the end of it. I shot my shot. We'll see what happens. And then, I swear to God, Caroline, the next fucking day. The next day, he posts on his Instagram A picture of him listening to Sunset. And I'm like, oh, oh. I'm like, I'm still in Japan, I'm with my fiance. We're freaking out. We don't know what to do. And then it just snowballs. Like, it just, it just snowballs in a way where I'm just from the outside looking in. I'm like, I can't believe that first of all, like, what a death straining situation, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I give this man a thing and then it creates this whole like thing. Well, now you're making the fucking the song on the beach. Like, how incredible is that? So it's just been awesome to watch from the outside looking in. And I kind of want to know like, what was your. Like, how did this all happen for you? Like, you see this, you probably wake up one morning, see this. Like, what is the next steps there?
- [07:11]
Caroline Polachek
I need to preface by saying I'm not a gamer and I've never, up until this year, I've never actually played. I mean, Myst doesn't count because I was like addicted to Myst as a teenager.
- [07:22]
Roger
It counts. It counts.
- [07:23]
Caroline Polachek
I mean, it was very aesthetically formative. But I love watching like playthroughs of games and also just watching essentially watching my boyfriend play them because I really interested in sort of the conceptual arc of video games. And obviously Kojima is the guy when it comes to that. He's the guy when it comes to really like 6th wall breaking level storytelling. So I've been following him on Twitter for years despite not having ever actually played through any of his games myself. So it was a huge deal to me. When he posted Sunset, I was like, how the hell does he know about this? First of all, but also the fact that he liked it because in my mind, there's the kind of music Kojima would like would be much darker, much more electronic. But as we, as we know, actually that's not really where his taste lies. But. But yeah, that blew my mind when he posted Sunset. And then from there, as you said, it snowballed. It was like every day he was posting Sunset for a while and then he started listening to other songs and the other album. And then I was like, I gotta shoot my shot here. And DM'd didn't get a response back. And then my management sort of went to. Went the professional. I mean, fair enough, he's got a lot to do. He's a busy. But then my people talked to his people and then suddenly I was on. On Zoom. With him and his whole team, very officially.
- [08:38]
Roger
Oh, my God.
- [08:38]
Caroline Polachek
And they pitched this to me, so.
- [08:40]
Roger
Okay, so that's the question that I have right there. I've seen a lot of the images of him with people on Zoom. Right. And sometimes that actually comes. Becomes something. Sometimes it's just him hanging out with people. Right. Like, did he have a pitch for you or was it just kind of like, let's get to know each other?
- [08:53]
Caroline Polachek
He did, and the pitch was actually a different one. And I. It's not as interesting.
- [08:58]
Roger
I don't.
- [08:58]
Caroline Polachek
I don't. I can't talk about it. But the pitch evolved into what this became.
- [09:05]
Roger
Was it for Death Stranding, that original pitch?
- [09:08]
Caroline Polachek
Yes.
- [09:09]
Roger
Okay.
- [09:09]
Caroline Polachek
It was, yeah. And yeah, the pitch evolved. There were a couple songs in Contention, some of which already existed. And then this is the piece of music that ended up in. Now being called on the beach was actually one of the first songs I ever made with producer and composer Danielle Harle. And this is who I make most of my music with at the moment. He's co written and produced most of my last two albums with me. But we made this piece of music Back in 2017, December of 2017, during a snowstorm in Brooklyn. We were snowed in and we pulled almost an all nighter working out of his friend's apartment and made this really scary piece of music. And I love it, but it was just too industrial and fraught, I guess, for. For paying, which is the album we were making at the time. So I. I knew, I said this. Let's save this for something really special because I love this music. It's too intense. It's too scary actually for. For the storytelling on this album. And then the opportunity came up to, you know, I had this, the scariest thing ever to soundtrack. And here we are.
- [10:23]
Roger
So did you like, send him a few songs or was it like, hey, this snowstorm changed. This is the song that I've been holding on to. This is the one for you.
- [10:32]
Caroline Polachek
I said, I have this song. It has no lyrics. It just has a melody and an instrumental arrangement. What do you think? Because in my mind, it makes a lot of sense. And he heard it and immediately was like, let's do it. And he sends me the 60 page synopsis of Death Stranding 2 and asks me to read it and asks me, we would like you to incorporate as many strands of this as you can, but in a way that people won't be able to read immediately, but people who have played the game will understand. And I said, sensei, You've come to the right person. And he has a co writing credit on that song because of all his ideas that have now ended up woven through the lyrics. And we even had a really cool back and forth where I was sending him demo sketches of the recording. And he's such a busy guy. I would kind of assume that it would take a few days to get a response from him. He would always listen and respond like in seconds. So he's ahead. He. He loves it.
- [11:43]
Roger
Yeah. He always seems like such a fan of yours. Right? The images of him dressed up in your hoodie. Right. He's so locked in. He loves this and I can tell he's a fan. So I'm sure if Caroline is sending you demos, that's the first. You're pushing away all the other work. You're listening to those demos immediately.
- [12:03]
Caroline Polachek
I mean, I couldn't believe it. It felt and still feels crazy to be in touch with him directly, but it's a hugest, hugest honor.
- [12:10]
Roger
So you talked about the little bit of the research that he gave you. He gave you the synopsis of the game. Did you go backwards at all? Did you watch a playthrough? Yeah. Oh, you absolutely do. I mean, it's all connected. It's strand stuff.
- [12:23]
Caroline Polachek
I did, yeah. I watched many playthroughs and thankfully the Internet is no short on men breaking down the lore into, you know, Wikipedia style explanations of it. So that was really useful as well. But I'm also just such a sucker for symbols and symbolism and all the layers of anthropology they can hold. So I've really leaned into that. You know, Kojima is explaining to me that one of the sort of main conceptual underpinnings of death stranding comes from the Japanese version of the River Styx. So we have the idea of the River Styx, which is the river that separates the living and the dead. And that's, I believe, Greek. Either Greek or Roman mythology. No, it'll be Greek. And the Japanese have their own version of that tale where when you die, instead of seeing a white light or going to the river Styx, you go to something called the River Sanzu. And at the river there might be someone that you know, like a family member or a loved one who's there to push you back from the river and done and not let you cross, or there might not be, and then you cross until the realm of the dead. And Kojima was explaining to me that this was a, a big point of inspiration for the early stages of the concept of death stranding. And I was so moved by that, that a game this contemporary, this futuristic, even has. Has its roots in something so ancient. So I was really keen to bring some of that into the song.
- [13:49]
Roger
Wow, that's incredible. Do you think for the second one you're gonna pick up the sticks a little bit? At least. At least to, like, understand or understand or feel the moment that. That your song is in.
- [14:01]
Caroline Polachek
Oh, what do you mean, the second one?
- [14:02]
Roger
Sorry. In Death Stranding 2, do you think you're gonna pick up the controller and actually play the part where.
- [14:07]
Caroline Polachek
Oh, yeah.
- [14:08]
Roger
Oh, you are. Oh, my gosh.
- [14:09]
Caroline Polachek
Oh, yeah. And to be fair, I did play Death Stranding 1. I just haven't gotten all the way through it. It's not an easy game to be the first time you ever use a controller.
- [14:17]
Roger
No, no. As somebody who just played it a few weeks ago, that. Yeah, no, absolutely not. That is not an easy one to just pick up and go. From Kojima, when he was talking about your song on the beach, he said that you work really fast. Is that something that you've always been like, are you always working fast? Or when it's working with Kojima, you work extra fast? What does that process look like?
- [14:39]
Caroline Polachek
Well, I'm actually a very slow writer, but he really handed me the content on a plate. And so when I have a starting point like, that gets my wheels turning really fast. But also, to be fair, so much of the composition of it, like, the music and the arrangement had actually been worked out by me and Danielle Harle years prior. So it was a really interesting. It almost felt more like doing a crossword puzzle where I was like, okay, I have the meaning from Kojima, the definition of what I need to do from Kojima. And then I have the structure that Danny and I have made already. And it was a matter of finding the right words that. That landed the two.
- [15:20]
Roger
Oh, wow, that's so interesting. What is the difference between making music for a client and making music for yourself? Right, because you have been popping. You were in the TV gloves, incredible movie, and your music was there, and I just. I'm interested to see, like, that creative process behind the scenes. Is it very different or is it very similar? I know this is a very specific scenario, Right. You already had a song that was pretty much there and you added onto it. But in general, is. Does it feel different when you're working with somebody else for their project?
- [15:53]
Caroline Polachek
It does, yeah. And honestly, I love it. I think it's because my own ego is so much less invested in it when it's When I'm sort of taking direction or when there's a prompt. I think there's so much pressure to express yourself when you're making your own music. And I actually sometimes find that really limiting because it gets your sort of identity and the anthropology of your own life and all that stuff involved. And when you get. When I get the opportunity to step outside that and have all that anthropology and, like, meaning we actually made by someone else. And I just get to. I just get to imagine it, you know, I get to inhabit it. I find it really freeing and. And often I can work much faster, actually.
- [16:31]
Roger
Oh, wow. Is that where this collaboration era is? What I would call it right now that you're in is starting from, of course, you collabed with the Caroline band, these new puritans, which just came out, their album Charlie. And then, of course, DS2 is coming out in a few weeks. Is that kind of what the vibes are in 2025? Is kind of getting outside of yourself and focusing on these projects where you don't have to worry so much? Or is that just a happenstance? Like, oh, my gosh, all these things lined up perfectly. And now this is what this year's looking like.
- [17:03]
Caroline Polachek
You know, it's funny is, I think, because I was on the sort of touring cycle for Desire I want to turn into. Really. Until spring of last year, I was so excited to be not only back in the studio, but able to just sort of play. And so as soon as I got off the road for that, I just started saying yes to stuff. And none of these were actually my ideas. It was all just amazing things I got presented with and I just felt like a kid in a candy shop and said, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then, weirdly, they all sort of came out much, much later in really tight succession. So this era wasn't actually planned, but it's quite fun to have it all just be like a. Yeah. A sort of pinata of different. Of different things that I've made over the last year. All coming out at the same time.
- [17:47]
Roger
Yeah. You never know where Caroline's going to be. You're all over the place and it's all incredible and it's exciting and you're putting me on to a lot of different types of music, which I appreciate. I want to ask about your label name, Perpetual Novice, of course, referencing Door.
- [18:02]
Caroline Polachek
Lyrica, but bet you will. Novice signature on it. Checkmate Out. Do you?
- [18:11]
Roger
I love that. I take that as a very positive thing. Right. Being a perpetual Novice, you know, always trying to find the ways to be a student. Always trying to learn. What about working with Kojima? Working in games has brought up that feeling of being a perpetual novice.
- [18:26]
Caroline Polachek
That's such a cool connection. So have you seen that, that scene in the death stranding trailer when all the sort of shrouded bodies approach the play gate? Yeah, I feel like that when I'm entering the video game space where I feel like I know absolutely nothing. And I feel completely awestruck by the magnitude and the scope of the kind of thinking technology that's required to make these, make these worlds live. And, and I think actually that feeling itself is like something worth capturing and bringing back into it. So. So that's it. I think feeling. Feeling small and like one piece of a team and like you have so much to learn is a really good, A good place to operate from. And the choice.
- [19:13]
Roger
Yeah, for sure. And the cool thing about like, the world that you're entering now, like video games, it is such a unique space with players that are so varied. Right. Like, you're gonna of course have people that know you and know your music that are excited to see Caroline pop up in the corner as your music plays. But also you're gonna have people that just listen to video game music. Right. Like, I have a lot of friends that literally all of the music that they listen to outside of video games are related to the video games they play. Right. So you're going to have an influx of new fans, new people that are interested in your work. One, have you thought about that scale of how big this game is and the world that you're going to be introduced to? I mean, it's massive. And then two, another side question, but connected to this, do you have an album, a song, a music video that you would recommend to them of like, hey, this is me encapsulated. I know that that's a big thing to ask, but do you have one or two things?
- [20:08]
Caroline Polachek
I love all this. First of all, what's up, guys? If any of you are new to me, I'm Caroline Polachek. I love meeting you here for the first time. Oh, the recommendation thing is so tough. I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump back to that in a second. But. But yeah, it's been really, really cool preparing this song to come out, knowing that it's gonna be for people who have no idea about anything I've made before. And, and, and it's really exciting because this song really feels like its own world. And maybe that means that these new listeners will like My music, the rest of my music. And maybe it means they won't. And both of those things are okay to me, actually. But. So when you ask for a recommendation for people, you mean of my own music or.
- [20:55]
Roger
Yeah, of your own music. Yeah.
- [20:57]
Caroline Polachek
Oof.
- [20:58]
Roger
Is that a harder question than all music?
- [21:01]
Caroline Polachek
No, I think. I think start with Peng, which is the album I released in 2019 when I first went solo. I was in a band called Chairlift for a really long time, an indie band out of Brooklyn. And then we broke up just as the sort of Brooklyn indie scene broke up. And I went solo and joined forces with a scene of musicians from London called PC Music. And it changed my life. I've made much more digital music since then, more conceptual music since then. And shout out piece of music, shout out Brooklyn and shout out Pang. That's where I would start. P A N G. I love that.
- [21:36]
Roger
I love that. I am interested to see, like, are you. Are you excited to perform this song live? You know, I don't want to. Not trying to spoil anything or get anything. I mean, you know, Game Awards is right around the corner. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to be exciting. So, like, are you excited to actually get out there and perform this live?
- [21:53]
Caroline Polachek
I am. I'm going to perform it in June. I don't know if I can announce yet when it is, but Kojima will be in the room and that is terrifying.
- [22:00]
Roger
Oh, really?
- [22:01]
Caroline Polachek
Yes. I'm so scared. Also, I think this will be. This is the hardest song to sing of any song I've ever written.
- [22:09]
Roger
Like, not like welcome to my island. Like that's.
- [22:13]
Caroline Polachek
No, it's harder.
- [22:14]
Roger
Okay. Okay. Well, I haven't heard it yet that we should establish that. So I don't even know what world this is.
- [22:19]
Caroline Polachek
But I'm also the biggest challenge to all this is that Charli XCX is playing Glastonbury a couple days prior and I have to be there. She's playing 1975 is playing. Ag Cook is playing. I have to be there. So the huge secret challenge here is like, how do I go to Glastonbury, not lose my voice, and then come back and see sing this song in front of Kojima like a day later. So wish me luck.
- [22:40]
Roger
You actually brought up something I was going to ask. Actually removed it from here, but you brought it up. I'm such a newbie to anything music or vocals or how to preserve it. When I saw you perform welcome to my island, my first thought. I'm such a nerd. I Looked at Liane's and my fiance and I said, how the fuck does she not lose her voice every single night? What is that? Do you have an extreme ritual for that or is it. What does that look like for you?
- [23:03]
Caroline Polachek
You know what's really counterintuitive about. Maybe it's my voice, maybe it's everyone's voices, but actually the high stuff isn't what kills my voice. It's talking. So I could sing for three hours, but if I go out to a club or if I go out and party, my voice is shot. So I think something about singing is very pure supported resonances, if you will. But then when you're talking, it's just like scratchy and loud and you're shouting over music without realizing. Anyway, yeah, partying, that's what does me in.
- [23:31]
Roger
So I'm glad that you're going to a Charlie XCX concert right before.
- [23:35]
Caroline Polachek
That's what I'm saying. I know I'm going to have to wear like some kind of like death stranding to cosplay outfit there. So no one talks to me.
- [23:44]
C
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- [24:49]
Roger
I want to ask about Paris and meeting Kojima there in person for the first time. That was your first time meeting him? Yes.
- [24:55]
Caroline Polachek
It was unreal.
- [24:56]
Roger
Yeah. So what was that meeting like? Was that like the finalized version of. It was like, hey, I'm in town, like, let's hang out. Because I was very surprised that you haven't. At least we haven't seen the images from. Like, have you been to the actual studio yet?
- [25:08]
Caroline Polachek
No, no, I've been invited, but it hasn't been the right time for me to go to Tokyo yet. But that meeting was essentially like a debriefing of him sitting me down and showing me unreleased Death Stranding footage. Us talking. That's when that. It was over, that lunch that he explained to me the sort of River Sun Tzu metaphor and how that bled into Death Stranding. And we were talking about whales, which is why I bought my whale shirt today.
- [25:33]
Roger
Hey.
- [25:35]
Caroline Polachek
And then it was really me just asking him questions about the game and what. And about the scene where the song would live in the game and. And he was asking me about how I work. And I think at that stage, it was like, mid November. And I was like, so, what's the timeline on this? And he was like, well, end of the year. So I was like, all right. We got five weeks to write record, mix and master, but we got it sent over, and it was shockingly fluid.
- [26:08]
Roger
Yeah, that. That was the wildest thing, is when I gave him that album, actually, in the little note, we each wrote little notes explaining our gift to him. I wrote not even expecting Death Stranding. I was saying, oh, she would make an incredible theme song for od, his next game. So, like, the fact that y' all made this happen so fast, because when we were there, he was like, aki was there. And he was, like, looking at us, he's like, oh, he's just trying to finish the game. Like, he's. He's working really hard. He's just trying to finish this game. So I thought that there was no chance in hell that this was happening. So it's really a miracle that y' all work so fast.
- [26:37]
Caroline Polachek
I think between us, between everyone here, I think that the Death Stranding music was already locked when I joined. When I joined on. And I think he got inspired when I sent him the sort of demo version of that song and said, you know what? We can always squeeze someone into the party through the back door.
- [26:55]
Roger
Oh, my gosh. Wow. It's crazy how the world works. That's incredible.
- [26:58]
Caroline Polachek
It is.
- [26:59]
Roger
It's so wild. One thing after just finishing Death Stranding for the first time, that I have really, like, thought about when it comes to your music and your work is his playfulness and his comedy. And that's something that you always go into, especially with, I think, about the welcome to My island music video. One of my favorite Music videos of all time. But you, you are very playful and you deal with camp and comedy and you have that balance right. Where sometimes you're talking about something very serious and then sometimes it is so absurd and out there. Can you talk about that of your playfulness and your additive elements of comedy to your work, specifically your visual style and your music videos?
- [27:40]
Caroline Polachek
Totally. Thank you for asking that. Welcome to My island, for anyone that hasn't heard it before, is a ridiculous and kind of very sort of self hating piece of music. It's a rock song that opens with me wailing pretty much acapella really high, like a sort of banshee, like Tarzan call. And then it opens into this sort of like Michael Jackson style, 80s quite slammed beat that I'm speaking over. Welcome to my island See the palm trees waving the wind welcome to my eye Hope you like me, you ain't leaving. It's sort of about like huge ego and sort of narcissism and also, you know, self hatred. All sort of being bound up in one thing. Under the idea of welcome to my island. This is what it's like to be me. I think the only way to tackle those three things at the same time is by making it kind of funny and stupid. And I sort of imagined the whole thing sort of like a walk of walk of shame. Like what's the version of me doing the walk of shame from a. From a party and singing this kind of song? And from that came the idea of this. Yeah, the music video. And like you said, humor is sort of woven throughout and I guess I don't know how else to describe it. I just think humor is a great way of dealing with chaos and dealing with things that don't match. And both of those are things that Kojima is always, you know, approaching as well, kind of conceptually is like in a world where things are chaotic and disjointed and disaligned. Like can we lean all the way in and make it, you know, not just make the chaos scary, actually do the, you know, go. Go the other way as well.
- [29:42]
Roger
Yeah. And that's so interesting. Yeah. Because you, you mentioned like the, the wildness of everything and, and kind of leaning into humor because everything is so crazy. And that's something that I've heard you say about desire. Right. Like that it is kind of. It's not the storybook like paying is right. It is a lot of mismatched things. And it's a scrapbook, it's a collage. So that makes a lot of sense that you would lean into that comedy aspect of it.
- [30:05]
Caroline Polachek
Totally.
- [30:05]
Roger
Is that something that you always are thinking about is. Is. Are you like, so. Okay, I just have a larger question because I'm so. I'm so fascinated with your visual side of things. Right. Like, as I'm a designer, I. I went to school for design and Peng came out right as I was finishing up my associate's degree. And it was, it was like a fucking revelation. Like, like the, the things you guys were doing with the art, with the music videos, with a specific. With like your custom made typefaces. Like I have right here, your desire calendar, which we open up and we make sure to flip every single month. And there's so much amazing imagery. And I am at the point now which you can correct me if I'm wrong, tell me what you think about your artistic journey. But I see you almost equally as a musical artist and a visual artist. Like, it is woven so deeply into the DNA of what Caroline Polachek music is. And I'm so interested to see because you are an independent artist, you are somebody that, you know, it all comes. It's not cheap to make these videos. It's not cheap to make any of this stuff. It matters to your artistic vision. And why is that? Like, where did that come from? And why is it so important to have all of these supplemental imagery and music videos to match with the art now?
- [31:16]
Caroline Polachek
Well, first of all, thank you. That all means so much to me. I grew up watching MTV. I'm a 90s kid. And watching videos by like Busta Rhymes and Missy Elliott and Bjork and even like Marilyn Manson. I was just so awestruck by these world. And the fact is, when you get presented with visuals like that, it makes you hear the music totally differently and imagine not only the music differently, but yourself differently when you hear it. And to me, that whole process is alchemical, it's magical. And it is actually one of the building blocks of culture. Not just pop culture, but culture. People become tribal and arrange themselves around these tribes that include what you're listening to, how you're dressing, what your politics are, how you like to communicate. And that to me, not just as a teenager, but through my whole life, has been so important to me. It's so like seductive and so interesting and rich. You know, how pop culture is a way for people to meet each other and find each other and have really profound things in common. So for me, the visuals are like a shorthand of expressing all these things. And it changes not just how I want other people to hear the music, but it changes how I imagine it even as I'm making it. In Pang, for example, I developed a uniform that I was wearing to the studio every day, which was just all green and black plaid. There's bits I found on ebay all in the same pattern and I would wear it every day. And it put me in the headspace of who I wanted to be in the music and the sort of omnivorousness of like, yeah, I can wear this to the club, but I can also wear this to the library. And I can be this character that embodies these opposites through this way of dressing. And the music can actually do this as well. So I like these, these bridges. I mean again, bring things back to death stranding too. But I like finding bridges both in sort of audio and visual worlds that, that can become sort of cultural bridges between people's internal and exterior realities. So I, I find that stuff like, really profound and, and really fun. I'm. I love making music videos maybe even as much as I like singing.
- [33:19]
Roger
And, and that goes to my next question, right? Like, you have co directed a multitude of your videos and is music kind of the, the way that you're going to go in terms of like, you are a musical artist and a visual and of course directing videos, but like, are you also going to potentially direct a movie? Like, like, where does your creative endeavor stop? Like, where is they? Where do they start? Is everything on the table? I would love to hear your opinion on that.
- [33:42]
Caroline Polachek
Everything is on the table at the moment. There is a film project that I'm, I'm beginning to sort of develop at least just in here.
- [33:49]
Roger
I like that.
- [33:51]
Caroline Polachek
But I can't, I can't talk about it just yet. But it's. I, it feels inevitable if, I mean, going back to the sort of perpetual novice thing. I have no experience directing a feature film size group people. Music videos are great because it's gonna be like a two day shoot. Pretty contained, but it does feel tempting. There's so much I want to do. I mean, making music for a video game has been on my bucket list like since day one. So, you know, we're slowly chipping away at it.
- [34:18]
Roger
Yeah, I actually want to bring up talking about that. I saw this Instagram comment that someone screenshotted from years ago. I think when you're doing Paying ama, where you talked about specifically how they asked you would you work in video games? And you mentioned Kojima. Years ago you mentioned Kojima and I think you mentioned Obra Dinn was another. Was another game that piqued your interest. So that's crazy how you've been thinking about this for so long and. Yeah, an absolute dream to compose themes for Hideo Kojima. Wow.
- [34:45]
Caroline Polachek
You know what's funny is I can't even remember. Look at that.
- [34:48]
Roger
Yeah. Wild.
- [34:50]
Caroline Polachek
I can't even remember writing those comments. I mean, obviously I stand behind them 100%, but when I saw them recirculating last week, I was like, oh, my God.
- [34:58]
Roger
Yeah.
- [34:59]
Caroline Polachek
What are the chances we're out here manifesting?
- [35:02]
Roger
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's what the vibes are for 2025. I am interested specifically when it comes to your visual component. Again, going back to that. I'm such a. I'm a video guy. I'm a video editor, designer. Like, I love this stuff so much. I want to know the order of operations here, Right. Are you making Bunny as a rider and you're thinking about the boxes? Are you like, is it all together? Is it afterwards? Like, what is that process of coming together and making the visuals for the song? I know it's a little different for each song, but generally speaking, well, Bunny.
- [35:32]
Caroline Polachek
As a rider is a really funny example to start with with music videos, because it was the first video I could make as soon as the pandemic allowed for shooting again. And I had so many things stored up that I wanted to do and forced them all into one video. And I'm not sure they all should have gone together, but we made them fit. But at the time, partially because of the pandemic, I was living out of a storage facility. All my stuff was in storage. And I was, you know, repacking my suitcase and going and staying in London, repacking my suitcase, going and staying in la. But all my things were in a storage facility. And whenever I'd go into the storage facility, I would think, like. Also, I had a. I'm really, like, organized. I had a system for organizing my boxes where I had a Google spreadsheet which had the contents of each box labeled and then the giant number written on each box.
- [36:35]
Roger
Incredible.
- [36:35]
Caroline Polachek
So when you'd walk into my storage space, it looked like a sort of piece of contemporary art. It was just like these boxes with numbers written all over them, like, hand scrawled really messily, like a thick red Sharpie. And every time I would go in there, I just think, this place looks so awesome. Even as much as it was like my own personal hell. But then I also liked it as a sort of metaphor where all your memories and baggage are Stored. And then at the same time, I was spending time in Spain, where there's all this, you know, great historical tradition around not just bullfighting, but sort of just the idea of the duende, which is like spirit that comes up from below and sort of possesses you with energy. And. And I was thinking about how all these. These things like the color red and the flag of the bull and the color red are all kind of synced up with that idea of, like, vitality and coming out of the pandemic, that felt like what we all needed. We all needed, like, really bodied physical energy.
- [37:27]
Roger
Yeah.
- [37:28]
Caroline Polachek
And then the third big piece of the puzzle here was sort of connecting the two in the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, which is a Greek. A Greek myth about this maze underground, and Theseus goes in and slays this bull man who's been taking all the maidens hostage. And I realized I was like, what if the maze of boxes is the maze and I'm Theseus and I go down to slay the Minotaur, but it actually turns into a sort of bullfight? And like I said, there's too many ideas here. And it was post pandemic, and I was so excited to shoot, but more than anything, I was excited to take this and make it physical because. Because we'd all become so virtual during the pandemic. And that was actually a big part of the aesthetics of my first album. Pang was taking these mythological, storybook, almost Hans Christian Andersen esque feelings and compressing them into a really tight digital system of images and ephemera. But then I wanted to do the opposite. On Desire, I said, let's break the system. Let's break the symmetry. Let's make everything really physical and messy. And that's what Bunny as a writer was. It was. Was mashing all these ideas together and doing it physically. We built the box in it. We built the box maze, which was insanely expensive. Thank you, Facebook, for paying for that. Oh, and the choreography was insane because I had to rehearse without the boxes. We had to tape off the floor of this dance studio, and I had to learn to navigate it backwards anyway. I could go on and on forever about that video, but this is just a little glimpse into how these separate ideas meet each other in these little strange bridges. And then the song kind of is all part of it.
- [39:06]
Roger
Yeah. So you're always thinking about it, like, at the same time. Is that kind of the vibe or is like, in terms of, like, music videos and the music that you're making or is it you have to finish the song and then you're onto the visuals.
- [39:18]
Caroline Polachek
I like to do it in two phases, mostly just because I don't think it's very interesting to make very literal videos, because the audience, the listener, always already does that in their mind or not. Maybe they're quite imaginative and it goes off somewhere else. But no, I like to. To allow myself the freedom of, like, how do I connect this song to the rest of the record using visuals. So the rest of the record has to be done.
- [39:37]
Roger
Oh, my gosh, this is perfect. Because this is my next question. Here is almost your music video comments now almost look like marvel comments of, like, theories of people connecting the dots and making everything so connected. Because it is connected, right? Like, I see you. I believe in Bunny as a rider. You have, like, the ring of the key from Door. Or at least that's my connection to it. So you have very much, like, melded this, both of your projects together into this one big world. I want to talk about that. Like, what is that? Why. Why is it so important to connect both of these things? Because I think some artists tend to do the opposite, right? Where it's like, this is one era, this is another era, Clean break, and we're not going to look backwards. Like, why is it so important to look backwards? Because I think it's fascinating. I think it's great to do that. Like, Charlie does that a lot where she looks back in her music, even of like. Like, hey, this is all the music from here, and they're all connected. I'm the same person. So why is it so important to connect both of these projects?
- [40:32]
Caroline Polachek
Well, you know, in that same way that I was saying earlier how music sounds different because of the way you visually present it, I think music sounds different because of the things people have heard before. It is a story that things that are different have meaning because there was something before, or things that are the same have meaning because they're the same as something else. So I think it would be, like, a little reductive to pretend that we're ever in a vacuum. I think it's more fun to acknowledge that we're all on a trip together and that maybe some people are discovering the catalog in reverse order. So fuck it, let's put it all in a. Put it all in storage.
- [41:07]
Roger
Yeah. Hey, I like that. That's great. Going back to video games really quick. What is the future for you in video games? Does this get you excited to be like, hey, maybe making the Caroline Polachek video Game. Like. Like, where is the level here? And also, just another side note, like, if Kojima ever wants to scan you and put you in the game, like, are you down for that? Like. Like, would you.
- [41:32]
Caroline Polachek
I. You know, when it comes to video game music, I realize that I'm sort of standing at the precipice of a giant cliff, which is AI where, you know, what does video game music want? It wants infinitely generative audio. And we're getting to processor speeds now where that's. It's going to be possible in five minutes. So I guess composition for video game scores to me is like really a giant question marks. I'm like, okay, will the. Will video games score composition so that nothing ever has to loop? Obviously you can get infinitely generated new audio. Let's say you want to linger in one room or one. One world or space video. So I think. I think that role is going to massively change. You know, even when I was working with Kojima on the scene where my song goes, we had to think about that because if. If players are moving really fast through my scene, they're not going to hear the whole song. And that's just how it has to be programmed. But I think we're right on the edge of these things being a lot more elastic and generative. And so I kind of just want to sit back and watch where things go. But obviously I do think it would be really interesting to get. Get my voice or singing involved with that kind of generative AI in these spaces and maybe where I can be somewhat in control of the harmony or the dynamics of it, but where I could sort of be singing to someone infinitely in a space, but also be quite in charge of the atmosphere and the melodies and be really cool.
- [42:58]
Roger
Interesting. Well, that seems like there's a lot there in terms of are you looking forward to. Are you. How about this? Kojima calls you up od. You're there, right? You're there for the next one. You're. You're. This is. Yeah, this is. This is. I'm excited because I feel like this potentially could be something that we keep on going back to you. And you and Kojima seem like a perfect match together. And he's very excited to continuously rep your merch as well. I. There's a few places I want to go. I just want to ask a general question really quick. This is just something I'm interested with you and the place you are in your career. And that is social media, right? Like, what is your inner. What is your relationship with social media? Because I see so many artists that are up and coming. You kind of have to use it, right? You have to use it to get your music out there. You have to be making the tiktoks. You have to be kind of out there because that's the only way that people are able to discover you. What's your relationship with it right now as it stands?
- [43:53]
Caroline Polachek
You know, my relationship with social media is really, like, malleable. I feel like one day I might have a really serious and explanatory approach something, and the next day I just want to sort of be a little bit more of a troll or. Or I'd just go off. I've just been going offline for weeks at a time, and I used to worry about that a lot. But one of the nice things about being between records is you don't. I don't feel I need to be so present, but. But I also don't want to disappear either. I think social media is, like. It really gets into the wiring of our brains and how we communicate. And it's also. I find it really interesting. Like, I think I'm as addicted to it as the next person, but I genuinely feel very, like. Like, intellectually stimulated by it as well. Especially watching, like, how different trends emerge of, like, non communication, of, like, you know, like, captions became really uncool or, like, carousels became really uncool. And I think there's something to that of, like, oh, suddenly saying less is more expressive than, like, saying everything. Or, I don't know, there's just so many layers of, like, you know, anthropology and, like, cultural signaling. And I'm just really into, like, watching it from a distance. But I think in terms of my own posting, I love photos. I really hope that photos stick around on social media, that we don't go, like, all video. But, yeah, I just don't feel committed to needing to stick to one format. I think it's cool to just code switch and be all over the place.
- [45:22]
Roger
Yeah, for sure. You mentioned it there a little bit. Right now you're in between projects. I'm not trying to get you to say anything about the next project, but also, like, just a question, like, what are the vibes? Like, what is the vibes for next year? Like, are you're always working on things, so, I mean, you have to be working on something else. Write another album. Yeah.
- [45:39]
Caroline Polachek
I'm not gonna use words to describe it, but I'll give you, like, a hand gesture.
- [45:43]
Roger
Okay. Yeah. It's a visual podcast. We can make that happen.
- [45:45]
Caroline Polachek
Okay. All right, so I think what I'm going for is, like, this. That's what I'm going for.
- [45:56]
Roger
I think that that gives me a lot. That gives me a lot personally, so I think I can work with that. That's great, Caroline. Thank you so much. I have one last question, but I guess it's more of, like, I need you to explain something to me, like, for real, because I've been out of all your music videos. I've watched them hundreds of times, yada, yada, yada. There's one video of yours that isn't a music video that I have seen many, many times that I have refused to look for any context, but I need you to explain it to me, and we're gonna edit it in right now. Okay? For real listeners, this video is loud. So lower your headphones, skip ahead a minute, or just chill with it, because it's definitely worth Sam. And that video is you screaming at the geese. I. I need. I need. Caroline, I need. I need to understand this, because I have so many questions about it, and I just. Just tell me, please. I. I know the context exists, but I need to hear it from you.
- [47:25]
Caroline Polachek
Okay, so the context is we're in the deep, dark butt crack of the pandemic.
- [47:29]
Roger
Yes.
- [47:30]
Caroline Polachek
AG Cook provocateur extraordinaire decides to create a live concert series that actually is streamed live of artists and friends and collaborators all over the world, each doing performances under the header of a different category. So it's almost like there's different stages on the festival, and they each have different themes. And mine. He put me on the category called extreme vocals.
- [47:56]
Roger
Perfect for you. Perfect for me.
- [47:58]
Caroline Polachek
Yes. But also, if I just sit there and I'm like, that's what everyone expects me to do. And so I really mulled over this for weeks, just being like, what am I gonna do to extreme vocals? Like, if I make a song, that's too obvious, like, plus, I'm in the middle of making an album. I got songs. And then I thought, like, what if I. You know, I. I. Anyone who knows me knows this, and maybe you're annoyed by it, maybe you love it. I hum compulsively all the time without realizing it. And you have to have sympathy, because it's like, imagine an electric guitarist who just has an electric guitar, like, surgically connected to their body. They'd always be playing it, just without realizing. So that's me. But. But I thought, what if I just put my wired headphones on and just walk around London as I would, and Just hum and let people hear it.
- [48:44]
Roger
You were actually doing this. Like, this is this. This was you. Like, I thought this was like a lip sync thing. You were actually screaming, yes. Okay, so then I have more questions. Why was nobody looking at you? Like, I lived in Brooklyn, I lived in New York. When people scream, you look for a second. I've looked in the background. I'm like, no one's looking. No one's looking at you. You.
- [49:05]
Caroline Polachek
I wish I had an answer for you. But honestly, all I was thinking about was the geese. I wasn't paying attention to the people. Sorry. Yeah, so I think it was like maybe 20 minutes long, the walk I took. And then I brought it home and I ran certain parts of it through vocoder just to kind of give it some more sass. But. But the whole thing was recorded in one. In one go, walking around West London. And I had intended just to kind of hum as I would in a sort of under my breath, unconscious way. And then when I got to the geese, I started honking with them. And then it just, you know, I just. The spirit entered the chat.
- [49:46]
Roger
I love that. And you leaned into it in the dang performance for Stephen Colbert, and I adore that performance. I adore the visual there. I laugh every time where it's like color of the year, and it's like slate or whatever. Like, it just. I cry a lot.
- [49:58]
Caroline Polachek
Was I wrong?
- [49:59]
Roger
You're so right. You're so right. You're a trendsetter there. And I said that was the last question. I have one more question, just a general question for you, if that's okay with you, of course. What is your current obsessions like? What are you. What are you feeling right now? It could be music. It could be movies. It could just be, you know, a feeling, something going on.
- [50:16]
Caroline Polachek
I love this question. I hate that the first thing that arrived in my mind is potato salad.
- [50:23]
Roger
Oh, interesting. Okay. How do you like your potato salad then?
- [50:26]
Caroline Polachek
Thank you for asking. I'm on a huge potato salad kick right now, where essentially it's like the potatoes are just a vessel for everything else. It's really all about the dill, the pickles. Pickles. The eggs, radishes. It's like a meal. What else am I obsessed with at the moment? I love the new record from this band, Smurs. Check it out. S M E R Z. It's so good. I don't know if Kojima would like it.
- [50:55]
Roger
You're gonna put him on now? Now he's. Now the Smurs are going to be Doing the title track for the next album.
- [50:59]
Caroline Polachek
That's how this works, honestly. And let me come up with a third thing for you. I am currently obsessed with. Okay, I know I'm a late. I know I'm a late adopter here. And this is like the coldest take ever. Maybe the hottest take ever, because I'm so late. I just saw Emilia Perez on the plane and I know it was. That film was so, like, widely hated. So I. I kind of delayed watching it. It. My mind was blown. Oh, how good it is.
- [51:31]
Roger
Okay, I haven't watched it yet.
- [51:34]
Caroline Polachek
All politics aside, I thought it was like, especially the way music was used and the way the songs were approached was so wildly forward thinking. So I, controversially, I ride for Emilia Perez.
- [51:46]
Roger
Oh, wow. Holy shit. Well, ending right there. Ending the podcast on a controversial cold take. Caroline Polachek, thank you so much for spending the time with me. And I am so excited to hear the song. It should be out by the time listeners are listening to this right now. And Death Stranding 2 comes out June 26 this year. Caroline, anything else you want to say to the audience, to the gaming audience over here before we end this interview?
- [52:14]
Caroline Polachek
No, I just want to say I hope everyone's having the time of their lives digging into the world of Dust Training two. And I will see you guys there.
- [52:22]
Roger
Hell, yeah. All right, see you guys later. Have a good one. And right as I said that, she left the call based on instinct. She came right back and we got to say goodbye properly. But that was it, everybody. That was the interview. I still haven't listened to the song properly yet, so I'll be doing that on our big marathon stream on June 27, where me and Mike walk across the world playing Desk Training two. So I'm very excited to do that with you guys on stream. And if you haven't already, listen to Caroline's albums. They're really incredible. Of course she suggested Pang to youo, But Desire, I Want to Turn into you. Her latest album is my personal favorite. And I wanna say thank you to the audience of Best Friends for rocking with me on this one. It's not every day that things like this happen, things that I will literally tell my children and grandchildren about, but this is definitely one of them. I appreciate you all for allowing me to live such a beautiful life. I hope you're doing well out there and I'll see you soon. And I'll see you on June 27th as me and Mike play Death Stranding 2 all weekend long. Again, thank you to Caroline Polachek for doing this interview. And thank you to everybody out there for listening. Make sure to share everywhere and let everyone know they're listening to this episode. Thank you again and I'll see you on the next time. Peace.