Changing Gamescast head to Sam Lake on Control, Alan Wake II, Remedy’s Future - Kinda Funny Gamescast (Ad-Free) (Patreon)

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Kinda Funny Gamescast: Video Game Podcast - Detailed Summary

Episode Title: Changing Gamescast head to Sam Lake on Control, Alan Wake II, Remedy’s Future - Kinda Funny Gamescast (Ad-Free) (Patreon)
Release Date: March 21, 2025
Hosts: Tim Gettys, Greg “GameOverGreggy” Miller, Blessing Adeoye, Andy Cortez
Guests: Sam Lake (Creative Director, Remedy Entertainment), Mikael Kasurinen, Ilkka V. Kallio

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I. Introduction

The Kinda Funny Gamescast kicks off with hosts Greg Miller and Roger Pokorny welcoming listeners to a special episode celebrating Remedy Entertainment's 30th anniversary. The episode features an in-depth conversation with key Remedy figures: Sam Lake, Mikael Kasurinen, and Ilkka V. Kallio.

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II. Remedy Entertainment’s 30th Anniversary

Mikael Kasurinen reflects on Remedy's evolution over three decades, emphasizing the company's growth in handling multiple projects while retaining its foundational "soul and attitude."

Mikael Kasurinen [06:12]: “Remedy is much bigger with multiple projects going on, but I also feel that a certain kind of soul and attitude that has been there from kind of the first days is still there. Yeah. Which is important.”

Ilkka V. Kallio adds that maintaining a balance between expanding their portfolio and preserving their unique culture has been crucial.

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III. Remedy’s Future Projects

A. Control 2

Control 2 is highlighted as a major upcoming title. Ilkka Kallio shares excitement about expanding the supernatural action gameplay introduced in the first Control game.

Ilkka V. Kallio [42:50]: “Control can be also so much more than what you saw in the first game. And I'm super excited about the sequel. It's going to be wild and bonkers, but that's all I can say.”

B. FBC Firebreak

FBC Firebreak is introduced as a three-player co-op FPS set within the Remedy Connected Universe (RCU). The game serves as an accessible entry point for new players, focusing on teamwork without heavy narrative demands.

Roger Pokorny [14:17]: “...a three player co op pick up and play experience. Is that something that we're looking towards in the future for more of these things or is this just a little test here?”

Mikael Kasurinen explains the game's role in providing a human perspective within the RCU, allowing players without supernatural abilities to engage using equipment and teamwork.

Ilkka V. Kallio [15:10]: “They can rely on the equipment and each other to be able to survive.”

C. Alan Wake II

Alan Wake II continues Remedy's tradition of deep storytelling within the RCU. Sam Lake emphasizes the game's design to be approachable for newcomers while enriching the existing lore.

Sam Lake [18:11]: “...she is like the every woman, right? She's somebody that you can associate with. And that's such a brilliant move in Alan Wake two to have somebody there that a new player can connect with.”

D. Other Projects and Collaborations

Remedy's partnership with Annapurna Pictures is discussed as a strategic move to expand their franchises into film, TV, and beyond, facilitating broader storytelling avenues.

Mikael Kasurinen [49:21]: “...with Annapurna who are co-financing Control 2 and taking the Control and Alan Wake franchises to film, TV and beyond.”

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IV. Remedy Connected Universe (RCU)

The RCU is central to Remedy's strategy, aiming to create a cohesive yet diverse narrative landscape across multiple games. Mikael Kasurinen discusses maintaining each game's uniqueness while allowing for crossover elements.

Ilkka V. Kallio [12:30]: “I think it's good. And us two kind of overseeing, we have our own inclinations, obviously, but there's that kind of a shared love towards like this kind of a heart of what remedy is that I think propagates into everything that we do.”

Sam Lake inquires about the balance between distinct experiences and potential unified titles within the RCU.

Sam Lake [12:00]: “...how important is it to have Control feel different and Alan Wake feel different and potentially other franchises in this RCU feel different? Or is there a world where potentially...”

Mikael Kasurinen responds by highlighting the flexibility of the RCU, allowing for both interconnected and standalone experiences.

Mikael Kasurinen [12:30]: “We can do a game that is in the same universe and has a lot of crossover elements. We can do a game that is... optional content acknowledges the universe.”

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V. Storytelling and Game Design

Balancing narrative depth with engaging gameplay remains a cornerstone of Remedy's philosophy. The team delves into their creative process, striving to integrate storytelling seamlessly with interactive elements.

Ilkka V. Kallio cites the Astrology Maze sequence in Control as an example where music, action, and storytelling converge.

Ilkka V. Kallio [26:59]: “...bringing together interactivity, storytelling and the visuals kind of come together, like in this perfect package.”

Mikael Kasurinen emphasizes teamwork and the iterative nature of game development, acknowledging that experimental ideas may require numerous revisions to align with the overall vision.

Mikael Kasurinen [28:30]: “There's a lot of people coming together, putting in their own ideas and energy into it... we never quite know exactly how it's going to go down. And that's part of the fun, honestly.”

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VI. Publishing and Collaborations

Remedy's journey with various publishers has shaped their approach to game development. Moving towards self-publishing, the team aims for greater creative control and long-term planning across multiple projects.

Ilkka V. Kallio [24:48]: “...we are taking steps towards self publishing and it is partly the fact that we are building a bigger universe with multiple games.”

Mikael Kasurinen shares positive experiences with publishers like 505 Games and Epic Publishing, appreciating their trust and support in realizing Remedy's visions.

Mikael Kasurinen [23:18]: “...they allowed us to take our vision and create the game and supported us where needed.”

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VII. Challenges and Lessons Learned

Transitioning from single-project focus to managing multiple titles brings inherent challenges. Sam Lake addresses the difficulty of maintaining personal investment without burnout.

Sam Lake [10:06]: “...how do you continue to make games feel like Remedy games?...how do you avoid taking too much from yourselves?”

Mikael Kasurinen discusses the conscious division of responsibilities, allowing each creative director to focus on specific projects without overextending.

Mikael Kasurinen [10:19]: “...we divided it up very consciously after the first Control. The idea was that I'll focus now on Alan Wake 2 and Mix will focus on what's next for Control.”

The team reflects on past endeavors, such as the Quantum Break introduction of Alan Wake II, acknowledging both successes and setbacks.

Mikael Kasurinen [32:28]: “I do feel like, like I wanted to do a musical for a long while. Yeah. And I'm. I'm now looking back, I'm really happy it didn't work out in Control, because I honestly think that what we did in Alan Wake 2 fit from the perspective of storytelling and all so well.”

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VIII. Interaction with Fans

Remedy places significant emphasis on transparency and community engagement, valuing honest communication with their fanbase. The team shares their experiences in addressing community expectations and managing feedback.

Mikael Kasurinen [47:18]: “...we have found ways of taking the lore, lot of the kind of crazy weirdness and use that as a kind of a foundation.”

Roger Pokorny highlights the positive reception of Remedy’s honesty and openness, especially regarding project announcements and cancellations.

Sam Lake [44:34]: “...the video was such a special video because you're so honest with the audience and with the Remedy fans...”

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IX. Notable Quotes

• Greg Miller [00:52]: “What's up everybody? Welcome to the Kind of Funny Games cast for Friday, March 21, 2025.”

• Sam Lake [08:08]: “Yeah, and you both as creative directors,... how does that work at the studio?”

• Ilkka V. Kallio [21:32]: “It's fine. Like you can play this game, just shoot at the bad guys and so on...”

• Roger Pokorny [42:53]: “Hello, Janina Gavankar. How are you? You're live on Twitch and YouTube.”

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X. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the hosts thanking Remedy Entertainment for their contributions to the gaming industry, celebrating their 30-year milestone. They reiterate the launch dates for FBC Firebreak and the anticipated release of Control 2. The team encourages new players to engage with Remedy’s diverse portfolio, highlighting the accessibility and rich storytelling of their games.

Roger Pokorny [56:04]: “Remedy's celebrating 30 years... If you are one of those people who hasn't played Control or Alan Wake 2, get your life together.”

The podcast concludes with reminders about ongoing and upcoming Kinda Funny Gamescast content, inviting listeners to subscribe and support through memberships.

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Overall Insights:

• Remedy Entertainment is strategically expanding its portfolio while maintaining the unique narrative and gameplay experiences that define their brand.

• Emphasis on Remedy Connected Universe (RCU) allows for both interconnected and standalone titles, catering to diverse player bases.

• Transitioning to self-publishing reflects Remedy’s desire for creative autonomy and long-term project planning.

• Transparency and community engagement remain pivotal in Remedy’s relationship with their fans, fostering trust and loyalty.

• The company continually seeks innovative storytelling methods, balancing experimental elements with coherent game design.

This episode offers a comprehensive look into Remedy's past accomplishments, current projects, and future aspirations, providing valuable insights for both fans and industry enthusiasts.

Transcript

[Greg Miller]

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[Roger Pokorny]

What's up everybody? Welcome to the Kind of Funny Games cast for Friday, March 21, 2025. I'm one of your hosts, Greg Miller, alongside the taste maker Roger Pokorny. Hi, how are you?

[Sam Lake]

Good. I'm feeling great. This is an exciting one.

[Roger Pokorny]

This is exciting.

[Sam Lake]

We've been meaning to do this one for a while, so I'm very excited about this.

[Roger Pokorny]

Ever since we hired Roger, he said, get me Remedy. I want to talk to Remedy. I want to have a whole bunch of different conversations with Remedy. And I said, I can do that. And it only took me five years. Oh, here we are with creative director Sam and Mikhail. Hello, Remedy.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Hello.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Hello.

[Roger Pokorny]

How are you?

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Pretty good.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

I have plenty of coffee. Yeah, I'm good, I'm good.

[Roger Pokorny]

The first question I saw go through in the live chat, Sam, was how do you take your coffee?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Black.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah, that's my man.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

That's midnight.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah. Wow.

[Roger Pokorny]

Everything he says is so cool. You know what I mean? We're gonna dive into a whole bunch of different questions about what's going on with Remedy's 30th anniversary. What's going on with this FBC firebreak business? What's going on with Control2? Mikael, what's going on with Control2?

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

All I can say is gonna be.

[Roger Pokorny]

Weird and so much more because this is the Kinda Funny Games cast. Each and every weekday we come to you with the biggest topics in video games. Whether they be reviews, previews, hanging out with our co or whatever it is under the video game sun. If you like that, like subscribe, share, of course. YouTube.com kindafunnygames Twitch TV, kindafunnygames, podcast services around the globe. If you love what we do, pick up a kinda funny membership. Patreon.com kinda funny YouTube.com kindafunnygames Spotify or Apple. Remember, we are an 11 person small business all about live talk shows. Which means we are kicking off one hell of a day after this. You're getting kind of Funny games daily with Blessing and Ben Starr. You know I did my best to keep the rats out of the house, but here they are. You know what I mean? Here he's eating all my cheese. After that it's game showdown with a bunch of different guests. After that it's Alien vs. Predator in review. After that it's more of Nick's Nuzlocke. If you're a kind of funny member, of course you can get your exclusive show. It's me in a series I call greg way. It's 18 minutes today about FBC Firebreaks, Game Pass and PlayStation plus deal timely.

[Sam Lake]

You like that?

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah, I make a lot of assumptions. We'll see if you think if they're right today. Thank you, Patreon producers Delaney Twiney, Carl Jacobs and Omega Buster. Today we're brought to you by Shady Rays, Me, Undies and Factor. But we'll tell you about that later. For now, let's begin the show with what is and forever will be topic of the show. Tots. Todts. Todts. Todts. Todts. Mikhail, what's going on with Control two? You know what I mean? Where's it at? I needed. We'll get to that. We'll get to it. I want to talk about FBC Firebreak, of course. A big announcement today. Huge news on that. But first, Sam, where did you learn to dance?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Do I know how to dance?

[Roger Pokorny]

I think you do.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

Everything. You make me smile, you know what I mean? You got the hands. I love it. I can never do it. I got no rhythm.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

I love dancing.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah, I. I totally amateur. No, but I. I love dancing and on and off. Being on some very basic dance courses, you know, growing up.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Some beginners courses in tap dancing and things like that. I love it. Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

That's awesome.

[Sam Lake]

So, I mean, you've been doing this. I mean, you did the tap dancing, so you have a little bit of a history there. It isn't just like out of nowhere, Right?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Well, like I. I have a lot of love toward it, so. So I wanted.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah, you're gonna nail it.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Put it into the game.

[Sam Lake]

I love that. And.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

And I. I was. I'm gonna be part of it. Sophia Ruya, a wonderful Finnish dancer and choreographer who came and did the choreography. There were a couple of things that, that were like. We were. We were showing her the title sequence of Peacemaker, the TV show, which has this really fantastic, funny, awkward dance thing that's something like this tonally. Then we showed her our motion capture calibration process where you do t pose and roll your hands and you know, I was saying that if we can get some of this in to the point that it's an inside joke inside the industry. I don't. Maybe you can kind of knowing that. That that was part of it. And then I was like, I'm a total animal. Amateur. Il Cavilli is amateur. But we need to learn this. So it needs to be easy enough. And. And also something that any fan who wants to learn it can learn it and do a TikTok.

[Roger Pokorny]

Oh, and I wish that was true. I don't have.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

She did a brilliant job. Although when I got the first reference video, like, okay, this is it. And I started practicing at home over a weekend, I was going to. I was like, I'm never going to learn this. I like this. Like. Like, what have I done?

[Roger Pokorny]

Amazing. Congratulations to both of you. Of course. 30 years of remedy. I, you know, think you guys are. And gals obviously are one of the most special developers we have working. And I think it's because of stuff like that that you love to get weird and you pour yourselves into everything you do.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah. It's been a long, long journey. Yeah. I feel we have grown a ton. Certainly Remedy is much bigger with multiple projects going on, but I also feel that a certain kind of soul and attitude that has been there from kind of the first days is still there. Yeah. Which is important.

[Sam Lake]

Well, that leads me to my first question is how do you preserve that type of. You were such a small studio working on one game at a time. Now you're working on multiple projects at a time. We see your schedule and what you guys are working on. You guys are working on a lot of stuff, a lot of different projects. How do you continue to make games feel like Remedy games? Because I feel like that's such a. Such a special thing. It.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

It's. It's not easy, for sure. It. A lot of work goes into it, but it's comes from the people and comes from us sharing certain kind of things that we get excited about and want to do. And I feel that we've been lucky in the sense that. That we have found other people who also share this kind of a feeling. I think you can see it in Firebreak as well, kind of that, that and it's. It's. There is so much competition out there that, that it's. It's absolutely crucial to be unique, kind of daringly unique, and kind of go where your passion is and be willing to do strange things if it kind of comes. Is genuine.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

That's important.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah. And you both as creative directors, this is a new role in terms of like 2024, you both were the creative directors of Remedy. How does that work at the studio? Like, are you both equally, you know, hands on, on all the projects? Is it divvying up of things? Are you learning how to do that right now? Like, how does that work?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

We are learning. I mean, with Mixu, we have worked together since 2001. Yeah. So forever.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

A while.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah. Yeah. And so we know each other well and have worked on many projects leading up to this. But yeah, there is so much going on. And I would say that these days the ambition level is such that when you want to be, and we both want to be hands on, you know, one project is. Even one project is kind of too much work. So let alone then kind of somehow overseeing and being a consultant to every project and all of this. Now with Annapurna Pictures looking into Linear media as well, there is just so much work that this way the likelihood of us surviving the work is. Better odds.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah, better odds. But also like, how do you stop yourself, both of you, from not putting everything or putting everything into these games and these projects, but not, you know, having it take from you too much? Right. Because I can imagine you've talked, Sam, a lot about how Alan Wake 2 was. It's your baby. It's something you wanted to make for so long. And then you were working on the project and it was. It was a lot. It was. It took a lot out of you. And you were like, after all the interviews, like, I just want a break. I just need a break from all this. And now you guys are overseeing all of Remedy and all of the projects. Is there a line, Is there a way that you guys are able to lean on each other, lean on the team? How do you. How do you guys.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Oh, sure. And we divided it up very consciously after the first Control. The idea was that I'll focus now on Alan Wake 2 and Mix will focus on what's next for Control.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

Which is.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Sorry, man, fbc. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess one thing I want to add to that is that, yeah, it's not self evident that like maintaining that sense of identity is happening by itself. So our shared love towards certain kind of expressions in pop culture and so on has been like a core foundation to many of the things that we're doing. And I think along the journey, I think we kind of start to put more like, you start to see like Finnish culture as well. Like when you kind of say Control, for instance, RTN and so on. So I think we kind of pouring more of that stuff into it as well, which has been great. But one thing that I think is cool about also going from one project at a time into a multi project studio is that I think it also allows the different franchises that we have to be more like what they need to be. Alan Wake 2 can be purely a survival horror. Like go all the way, you know.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

And amplify the little bit of dancing.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah, you need to, you know, maintain a balance, of course. And Control can go all out on the action and you know, the supernatural craziness and so on, have those kind of insane set piece moments and a little bit of dancing as well, of course. So I think it's good. And us two kind of overseeing, we have our own inclinations, obviously, but there's that kind of a shared love towards like this kind of a heart of what remedy is that I think propagates into everything that we do.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's actually something I was going to ask, right? Is that now that we're going deeper and deeper into the rcu, right, these games are having more and more crossover, right. Like, how important is it to have Control feel different and Alan Wake feel different and potentially other franchises in this RCU feel different? Or is there a world where potentially, hey, we have a game that is all of it together in one game, right? Is that, is that a goal? Is that a thought process? Or we just want to split up these, these franchises and make them feel.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Different, have a take.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

I do feel that we are in kind of early, early stages of the universe, still exploring, exploring possibilities and it feels natural and it feels good that it is kind of a fluid thing. We can do a game that is in the same universe and has a lot of crossover elements. We can do a game that is in the universe that kind of barely on the sidelines on optional content acknowledges the universe. Overall, it doesn't. There is no set formula that it always needs to be this kind of a portion that will be crossover. So that will allow us also to surprise and do something unexpected. Whether we'll end up building this into some sort of a crazy endgame, we'll. We'll see. It's too early to say, really.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah. Well, talking about transitioning over to different types of games in the rcu. Firebreak, right. That is an exciting game and I got to see a little bit of it behind closed doors and I was very impressed with it. I'm very excited to get my hands on it. That's my number one thing. I want to play it. But it's so interesting, right? It is a smaller scale game. It is pick up and play. It is not necessarily story based. How important is it talking about the RCU and expanding it to have these smaller experiences in there, to expand the universe, not only from a story perspective, even though this is not really a story game necessarily, there are some story elements to it, but just, I mean, come on.

[Roger Pokorny]

The official thing goes. Today Remedy Entertainment unveiled a new gameplay trailer for FBC Firebreak, a three player co op FPS where the Federal Bureau of Control's first response unit must contain an escalating para. No natural threat. When the oldest house. Fuck yeah. The bureau's shifting headquarters falls under siege by relentless para natural force only Firebreak, its most adaptable response unit, has the skills and courage to restore order. Sounds a lot like it's got some ties there, Roger. Got a lot of story stuff going on in there.

[Sam Lake]

It's got.

[Roger Pokorny]

But don't yuck my control yobs. We're doing this.

[Sam Lake]

Absolutely. It's in the same universe, so there are going to be a lot of nods to it. But it is not a story game. It is not a single player video game. It is a, is a three player co op pick up and play experience. Is that something that we're looking towards in the future for more of these things or is this just a little test here? How important is it to have these smaller experiences here?

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

One starting point that we had for Firebreak was that we wanted to find a human perspective into this world as well. Like Jesse for instance is a person of power and Alan Wake obviously has powers as well and so on. So it's interesting to see like people who actually don't have any supernatural powers at all. They can rely on, on the equipment and each other to be able to survive. So I think that's in itself is like an interesting angle in the world right now. We're seeing it as a kind of way to spend time with friends inside the oldest house.

[Roger Pokorny]

So it's less a lovely vacation spot, just where I want to go hang out with my friends.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

I keep hearing everybody wants to return to all this house, so hey, here's your chance. There you go.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah, it's a different kind of experience and certainly on that level, us dipping our toes in and trying out things, feeling good about it. And yes, it's not a story experience but Mike, who is the game director does have kind of a narrative background and I'VE been really impressed by just how they found ways of taking the lore, lot of the kind of crazy weirdness and use that as a kind of a foundation to jump into this kind of an experience. It's very much present there in everything that you do. Kind of like what the lore of Control is.

[Roger Pokorny]

If I might. I didn't get to see the presentation, but the news today, all this dropping. One of the things that speaks to me as, you know, kind of funny Games Daily is Greg Miller. Right. The industry guy. Yeah. You came out right away. Right. This is going to be on Game Pass. This is on PlayStation Plus Extra and Premium. And then I liked that the press release even called out that this was a mid priced game. Right. We're not here. You're not putting a number on it, but you're not saying like, hey, this isn't going to. Was that important to you in terms of getting as many people in the door to play this and understand that this is something you should be playing with your friends, but it's about enjoying it.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah, absolutely. We want as many people as possible to, you know, play the game and try it out, you know, and even if you never played Control before, any of the Remedy games, I'll stop right.

[Roger Pokorny]

There if that's true. Get your life together. What are you doing? What are you kidding me right now?

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

But if you haven't, if you're one of those people, it is an easy entry point into the world and there's some lore stuff there. There is some like certain things kind of going on. You learn a bit and hopefully, you know, you kind of get interested, like what is this place? You know, what's going on. And hey, if you kind of get excited about that, then maybe you should check out control, Alan Wake 2 and all the other cool games they've done.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah, the ones that are coming up like Control two.

[Sam Lake]

I love the on ramps. I think it's so important. As I was telling you earlier, Sam, I played Control and I really enjoyed it and. But I never played Alan Wake before. Right. And my fiance never played any Remedy game. Right. So we booted up Alan Wake 2 and you guys assured me that I can play Alan Wake 2 without playing Alan Wake 1. I know it probably hurts your soul a little bit, but you know, I wanted to try, I wanted to try it out and my fiance is the biggest Remedy head now. She loves Remedy and it is like one of her favorite things to talk about and fall in love with. So it's so important. Specifically in Alan Wake 2 like you have Saga Anderson, right, Who is, I think, the best on ramp ramp for this franchise ever. Right, because she is the second protagonist in the game and she is like the every woman, right? She's somebody that you can associate with. And that's such a brilliant move in Alan Wake two to have somebody there that a new player can connect with. Right. So how important are those on ramps? Right? FBC is one into the franchise and into the world. But going forward, maybe it is.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

It is very important for us. Kind of like how. How we are looking at the universe overall is that even if it has a number at the end of the name, meaning that it's a sequel, we. We want to make all of these games still standalone. Enough interest at that anybody can start playing. Even if you haven't played any Remedy games before that you can start playing. And then hopefully, you know, every game works as kind of a gateway truck into Remedy Universe, and then you can go on and catch up and play all the rest of it. But that's very firmly. You can do Universe wrong. And, and. And that would be that everything that came before is a requirement for. For you to kind of like get into it and understand, and it just will end up collapsing as an impossible thing that. That people will go like, oh, so what, seven games before this one? Yeah, maybe later, and that later never comes. So. So it's really, really important that each of them are approachable on their own. But then if you like it and get interested, then you can go and catch up with the history.

[Sam Lake]

Well, tell me about the difficulties of that. I mean, it feels like in a lot of ways you guys are building a universe on hard mode. Right? You know what I mean? I feel like it's very easy to be like, oh, we're gonna make just a bunch of sequels, and you have to read them all beforehand in order to get into it. You are also doing it in video games, right? Crazy in and of itself. That's nuts. And it's exciting. But now you are creating on ramps for people into these. You're also making side games that are potentially or not potentially, they are adding on to the lore, right? Like, how do you not get your wires crossed? How are you able to do all of this and make this a cohesive thing? It's tough. It must be tough.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

It is tough.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah. One thing, like, when you try to kind of market the game and people kind of sense that there's this kind of a depth to the experience, right? Like, there's a lot of lore which we love, right? Like we want to kind of build a world that you can kind of believe would actually exist. But when you kind of speak about the game it's difficult to navigate in such a way because you have layers.

[Sam Lake]

Right.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Like you should be able to jump into any of these games, have fun. You don't need to dig into everything, read every single kind of a note that you find and so on. It's fine. Like you can play this game, just shoot at the bad guys and so on and you know, float around. Like it's exactly float around and do all of that stuff and you don't have to worry about narrative. You don't want to. And you can have fun like that as well. I do think it's important that people see that side. But I feel like when we talk about it, of course we want to talk about well because that's what we're excited about and making sure that people get that There are these different layers of experience that you can have within these games.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah, you want to go to the chat? Yeah, we got a bunch of people super chatting of course on YouTube.com kindafunnygames where you could ask your questions of Simon McCale and remedy in general. Ah, there's so many good ones here and so many people just talking about how much they love you guys. So shout out to that if we have time at the end I'll let you read them but if not, you tell me about Control 2. You can read the positive one. So otherwise you got to listen to me go through this one. I like a whole bunch of these ones. I'm going to start with CJ splits on who writes in and says does working with multiple publishers affect how you design each game? Again, kind of funny games Daily hat on. We talk about the industry at large all the time, right? How hard it is to be an independent video game developer. I think people look past you guys a lot, right? Because you're making games like Alan Wake two that have all the appearances of aaa. You're a smaller team, so maybe you define it as aa, but in the grand scheme of things you're an independent developer trying to make this work. Right. And you guys have always been very vocal and very honest about hey, we're doing this project, hey, we're stopping on this project. Hey, we're working with these people. Does this go into your thinking when you're working with multiple publishers?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

For sure. Every relationship is different and publishers role is hugely important. Getting a game done. I feel that we have learned a lot along the way, I feel we've been very lucky with the recent games, like 505 Games with Control, Epic Publishing with Alan Wake 2. Both of them showed a ton of trust towards us and allowed us to kind of take our vision and create the game and supported us where needed. So that was all working really well. The ambition now being more and more is that we are taking steps towards self publishing and it is partly the fact that we are building a bigger universe with multiple games and if they are in the same home, then it makes it easier for us to kind of like have long term planning and combining things where we want.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah. At the end of the day, I think we built up a lot of confidence also into the things that we believe in. Right. And I think if there's something I've really invested in and believe that this is the right way to go, I think we always do everything we can to really kind of get it into the game. And honestly I don't think it has happened that often that there's been any kind of a, kind of a collisions on that front. And of course it's really important to us to like, we do regular testing and things like that to kind of see where are the different pain points that kind of pop up. And we always kind of find a way figuring them out without compromising the things that we believe in.

[Roger Pokorny]

Hell yeah. You want another one or you want to take it back over? Here we go. I like this one from Tavin. Your use of meta commentary and themes is unmatched in the gaming space. How do you all balance gameplay, artistic expression, story, etc. And which element do you find draws your focus the most? Just a little question.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

There is it goes to experience, like having done multiple games, tried out things, seen the things that don't work, seeing the things that do work. Sure. And a lot of it still kind of comes from the gut, just, just having a feeling and going with the feeling and trusting the feeling and like, if it feels exciting, then let's chase it. But we do have our kind of like roles and priorities. I've always been like, I started out as a writer and I very firmly think of myself as a storyteller more than designer of the game side. And that's why in these projects I always want to partner up with the game director. Kyle Rowley, the game director of Alan Wake 2 is he comes from the design perspective, I come from storytelling perspective. And then together we kind of like figure it out and form the experience. So there are different roles as well, like If. If somebody is focusing more on something, then we'll just find a partner to kind of support the other areas.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

I think at the heart of it, there is. We want players to have an immersive experience, right? Like, it feels like they are in the situation and kind of have the agency of figuring it out by themselves. It's super important to us. But there is this contextual kind of setup that we want to kind of create, which within the players then kind of experiment and find their true. It is extremely difficult sometimes to kind of find balance in that, so that the experience has become too passive and kind of finding the interactivity in it. But we have a lot of, like, when you think about, like, let's say, the Astroma sequence in Control, it's like combining music and action and gameplay and movement and kind of telling a story at the same time through the lyrics of the song and so on. And those are things that I personally love, because that's when interactivity, storytelling and the visuals kind of come together, like in this perfect package.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

It is teamwork. It's always teamwork, like finding really, really talented people that you can rely on and who bring their own expertise into the mix.

[Roger Pokorny]

When you're building up to something like the Ashtray Maze in Control, like, is it exciting? Is it terrifying? Is it all of it? Because it's like, you know what that could be, you know what it needs to be. But I assume at some point making that you're like, this is really tough. And what if it doesn't hit? Is that around there, Mikhail?

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

It's definitely. You never quite know, honestly, beforehand what's going to really click at the end of the day, as Sam said, it is teamwork. There's a lot of people coming together, putting in their own ideas and energy into it. And as a director, kind of just maintain that creative chaos that kind of people bring into it and make sure it stays as a cohesive whole. And with the Astray Maze, there's like, so many different elements coming together. Like the band that kind of did the song handled lyrics and so on. Then there's the team itself. There's a VFX department looking at how all the kind of visuals work when the environment shifts around you. So there's so. So many different things that have to come together, and all you can do is, in the beginning, try to kind of portray a vision of what you want to achieve and then let the pieces kind of land and put them together in a kind of a cohesive way, and you never quite know exactly how it's going to go down. And that's part of the fun, honestly.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah. All of these kind of like big, memorable set pieces like Astray Maze or Musical Number. The vision is there, and there never was any doubt that we are doing this, and it's gonna be awesome. But the road defined how these things click together is a winding one. And there are many iterations that can be quite different from each other until we work our way through it and find the form. A lot of experimental tries and iteration happen in between because always these are. We've never done something like this before. Nobody has ever done something like this before, so we need to figure it out as we go.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah. I think you've just set me up for a lot of questions. But before that. Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Greg?

[Roger Pokorny]

I'm thinking what you're thinking. But I have one question before we pivot off of that. Has there been an experimental thing you're working on that just hasn't panned out?

[Sam Lake]

Stole my question, Greg. You stole my question. Why would I go to a stole break?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

That's a great question.

[Roger Pokorny]

Has there been one that hasn't worked out before?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yes.

[Roger Pokorny]

Okay.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

I mean, even in. Even in Control, the first control on top of the Ashtray maze, there was, on the level of story synopsis, a musical sequence in there, right? Yes. And that was meant to be. When we do the mislead of false credits and then we go into that, you know, black and white Nightmare Escape. The first idea there was that it's going to be a musical. An office bureaucracy, but a musical.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Hell yeah. So good. But, you know, there is just so many things happening and always, always like what the final game ends up being. There are many things that have been scoped out. And we had Astray Maze, so we scoped it out and there were other crazy ideas that followed up for that dream sequence that we're kind of like looking. Looking for their way. But I feel nothing. These kinds of ideas that you feel passionate about and excited about, they are never lost. There are all kinds of things that go back 10 years, 20 years. Ideas that we've entertained. And like, I personally, in the projects where I'm hands on, keep bringing back and we look for.

[F]

And.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

And maybe we don't find it, but. But like, I. I do feel like, like I. I wanted to do a musical for a long while. Yeah. And I'm. I'm now looking back, I'm really happy it didn't work out in Control, because I honestly think that what we did in Alan Wake 2 fit from the perspective of storytelling and all so well.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

So so. And if we would have kind of like realized that vision in control, then maybe there would have wouldn't have been that kind of drive to get it done for Alan Wake too.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah. I got to confess, like, I. I'm the reason why the musical didn't happen. I had to sabotage. Yeah. I had to find the right way into the whole thing and so on. Yes, it was a scoping question as well. Sometimes you just can't do everything. But yeah, of course I took it personally.

[Sam Lake]

I'm going to dance at the game alone.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah, there you go.

[Roger Pokorny]

Now I'll remind everybody that remedy's been around for 30 years. Kind of funny has been around for 10. And we couldn't do it without your support. If you love us talking about games each and every day, all day long, we'd love for you to pick up a kind of funny membership. Of course you get all of our shows ad free. That's more than 20 a week. You'd get your daily dose of me, Greg Miller and a 15 to 20 minute podcast I do each and every day. And of course you'd get good karma for supporting a local small business. But right now you're not using your membership benefits that of course include ad free viewing on patreon.com kindafunny, YouTube.com kindafunnygames, Apple or Spotify. If you're new here, there's not supposed to be logos. I was just doing it. So here's a word from our sponsor.

[F]

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[Roger Pokorny]

And we're back. Roger, take it before I steal your questions.

[Sam Lake]

Oh no. Sam, you did an amazing interview on behind the Voice with ABHI Jha. He's an incredible.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

He's wonderful.

[Sam Lake]

He's Incredible, right? Yeah, he's awesome. His production quality is awesome. Off the charts. So you did an awesome interview and you said something which I wanted to bring back here is you said, when you're talking about remedy and what you always want to do, you said you're always trying to do something that has never been done before. Is that a lot of pressure? Because basically you are trying to top yourself at this point, right? Like talking about the control sequence, talking about The Alan Wake 2 sequence, talking about the games that you continue to make. Is it just now? Are you just looking within yourselves now or like, how do we top the last game?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Is there any other way to do this? Is my question. But like, if that's not the ambition, then what is? So for sure, I think that games in some ways just fit this idea really well because from the perspective of technology, we are always working on platforms that we have never worked on before. It's just evolving constantly anyway, so I think that the whole point is, well, let's figure out on the side of the game and storytelling and all, where can we take this? It's always like I feel personally that we being tracing it back, it's a very logical through line through these experiences. But at the same time we are always kind of questioning the individual parts and is this working? Maybe it isn't. Let's leave this behind. Let's bring in something new.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

I think it's part of the kind of mindset that you have as a kind of creative director that because it's not an easy job, right? Like you need to drive a lot of things and be an inspiration and work a lot different people and so on. And I think you kind of draw strength from something unique that you're doing something that you're super excited about. And I think it's just crucial to have something like that. And unfortunately it seems to go like once you've done a thing, you're not necessarily super excited doing it again, right? Like you want to find something new. And that's like what fuels you really at the end of the day to be able to kind of push through all of the stuff that you need to do.

[Sam Lake]

But there's never a moment where you look back, you're like, man, we fucking killed that. You know what I mean? Like, we killed that. And like, I don't know how we're going to make another one of these.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

It's a strange kind of schizophrenic feeling of you are kind of never satisfied at the end of the project because you Are only seeing everything that was left behind along the way or like, oh, I wish that detail would be right. Then the realization that you have to go through every time again is that majority of it. Nobody playing it will notice in any way. But you are very kind of like close to it. Too close.

[Sam Lake]

When you guys were here for Alamoy 2, that was the feeling I felt from you guys of like, oh, how does this feel? We're like, this is great.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

This game's awesome. But at the same time, hugely, hugely proud of every single game that we've done. And usually these kind of like, you know, things that you are not satisfied about. It's a momentary thing. Couple of months pass and you don't remember those details anymore. And then what remains is that, well, looking back, we did something great.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah, I feel exactly the same. It's. I actually haven't replayed any of the games that I've done.

[Sam Lake]

Oh.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

And now I'm slowly starting to maybe come around to the idea that I could actually play Max Payne 2. I'm getting there.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Not to be annoyed by those details.

[Sam Lake]

20 years or so, talking about Alan Wake 2, clearly your biggest development undertaking. What are some of the lessons learned just generally speaking, going into the future of Remedy, because it's extraordinarily ambitious and I know it's not necessarily things that you weren't already doing before, but to another level. Right.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah, that was very much. And it's part of like, we had failed getting to Alan Wake two for so long. There had been time to entertain all of these ideas multiple times along the way. So there was a lot of bottled up ambition and drive to the point of anxiety that now, this time around.

[Sam Lake]

Now we got to do it.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

All of those ideas and let's go like as far as we possibly can. But it was pretty crazy on how big of an effort that then was. Very happy where we got with it. Yeah.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

And Alan Wake is an interesting arc that it's gone through. And this is the first time I'm actually working on a sequel on a game that I've done before. And regards to Control 2.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

Talking in detail about right now.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Well, I guess the only thing I want to say is like, I mean, in the same way as Unwake is in many ways Sam's baby, Control is mine. And I feel like control can be also so much more than what you saw in the first game. And I'm super excited about the sequel. It's going to be wild and bonkers, but that's all I can say.

[Roger Pokorny]

Hello, Janina Gavankar. How are you? You're live on Twitch and YouTube.

[Greg Miller]

Greg Greggy, what are you doing right now?

[Roger Pokorny]

I'm talking to Sam McHale. Like, you could. You could turn on Janina.

[Greg Miller]

I'm aware. Like, you're, like, doing this video game stuff. Like, it's, like, for kids. Like, you're 49 years old.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Come on.

[Roger Pokorny]

That's not accurate. That's not what you were. You're in their games. What?

[Greg Miller]

No, no, no. They are artists. You should not be talking to auteurs with your, like, Internet voice. You're, like, 48 years old.

[Roger Pokorny]

I'm. No, it's lower than that. It's low.

[Greg Miller]

Okay, so you're 47.

[Roger Pokorny]

All right, Jeannie, it was nice for you to call in. It's always a pleasure. It's always pleasure. Mikhail, back to you.

[Sam Lake]

She makes a lot of great points.

[Roger Pokorny]

No, she doesn't. Don't, Don't. Don't encourage her, please.

[Sam Lake]

Hard left turn. I want to bring up something that went a little bit viral a while ago after the launch, the successful launch of Alan Wake 2, and that is the Quantum Break Alan Wake 2 video that you made, where you talked about Alan Wake 2 and how it didn't happen. And basically looking at the audience, and I think looking back on it, it is such a special video because you're so honest with the audience and with the Remedy fans, right? You're looking at them in the eyes, and I feel like this could have been a moment where you could have done the PR spin, right? You could have been like, oh, well, Quantum Break is great. I only make two eventually. But you look in the camera, you say, hey, I. Only two is not happening. We couldn't make it happen the way that we wanted to. And it's.

[Roger Pokorny]

It's.

[Sam Lake]

When you look at this video, right, first of all, what were you thinking in that moment? What was the. What was the feelings? And how do you feel now looking back at it? Because it must. It must have been really tough.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah, I mean, it. I feel. I mean, so much respect for our fans who love our games and are there kind of going through these experiences with us. I like just being transparent and honest. Always gets a positive response because people can, like. Like, PR is pr. And of course, PR is needed in many areas, just communicating things. But. But then there are these times where it's just so important for your own sanity, but also to. To make certain things clear. And that was one. Like, it was a huge disappointment back then. I mean, we build that how it Went was, we were just kids when we made Max Payne. And there was not a single thought given to the idea of a potential sequel while we were working on Max Payne. Only afterwards it was like, oh, we're going to make a sequel. I wish I hadn't killed all the characters of the story. And then learning from that, going to Alan Wake was, we'll plan the sequel from very early on. We'll take this story to a cliffhanger and then we'll continue from that. And with the learnings of Max Payne, that was like an obvious thing to do. And then suddenly, this is not obvious at all. We are not going to be able to do this sequel. Nobody is at this time interested in coming in and funding the SQL. So that was, you know, okay, I thought I knew how this is going to go. This is not at all how it's going to go. And always things work out, have worked out through the years for us. We've been lucky as well. And the conversations with Microsoft From Alan Wake 2 Spin into something new, which was Quantum break that I'm also very proud of.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

But it felt like, well, now is time to, you know, face the fans and camera and explain. Like, we really wanted this. It's not happening. And sorry. So, yeah, I think it was the right move to do. And I hope that we can keep on being transparent on this level.

[Sam Lake]

When you look back on that video, what do you feel now?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Poor guy.

[Roger Pokorny]

Show him the video of you dancing in the game Awards.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yes. And, and, and that's, that's one other learning on, on this journey through 30 years is that I'm so happy we didn't create that Alan Wake tool or the next one or the next one, but rather this one. Because huge part of What Alan Wake 2 now is would not have been possible before. Like all the learnings that were poured into, like all the learnings from Control as well. I couldn't have made that game before. So I'm really happy that we have Alan Wake 2. Even though I was really frustrated through the years along the way of trying and not being able to do it.

[Sam Lake]

That's really beautiful. Beautiful. And talking about Control and just the future of Remedy. Right. You, I alluded to your slate. Your slate is crazy. Like you, you are working on a lot of games, a lot of projects. Let me just rattle them off really quick. Control to fbc, Max Payne remakes and the Annapurna deal. And another unannounced project is this. Was this the dream? Was this the remedy dream? Pipe dream. We could potentially be doing all this, or is this not even your peak? Is there another mountain that you want to climb that we're not even thinking about?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Isn't the rule that when you get a lifetime achievement award, you have peaked and people are like, time to go, time to go.

[Sam Lake]

Mikael's turn.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yes and no. I think that, yes, we want to do more, we want to keep on doing more. I'm hugely excited about our collab with Annapurna because we've been trying to do that for many, many years as well. And now it feels now we have the right partner and they are very, very keen to very closely on the creative side, collaborate on this.

[Roger Pokorny]

Remedy is thrilled, as thrilled as Finnish people can be to announce that we are working together with Annapurna who are co financing of Control 2 and taking the Control and Alan Wake franchises to film, TV and beyond.

[Sam Lake]

So cool.

[Roger Pokorny]

Very cool.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

But it is a lot and that's why we are co creative directors now on the company level. And then we have strong creative teams on all of these games and very much learning at the moment how to do this and how to manage and balance and still make sure that we are building one thing while we are building many things.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

You good?

[Sam Lake]

I'm good.

[Roger Pokorny]

It's lightning round because I know we got to get you out of here. You got big business to go off and do. So I have a few super chats I want to throw at you from YouTube.com kindafunnygames Calvin Perez writes in and says, can you talk a bit about how the idea of characters having multiple identities came to be. And then he goes, that is, I'm not going to. I don't want to ruin. I don't want to ruin it. People haven't played playing the games. It's one of my favorite aspects of the games and it feels so Mulholland Drive.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah, well, lynch is and always has been a huge inspiration for me. Yeah, like, like and new weird that Control very much was tapping into as a, as a, as an inspiration of a genre in literature. Certainly has a lot of elements that is kind of like the fluidity of identity. So it is at the core of it. I absolutely love Metalayer.

[Roger Pokorny]

I've noticed.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Some might say too much, but there you go. Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's an interesting aspect in the storytelling and once again, maybe looking at it from a totally different perspective, is absolutely loving the really talented actors we've grown a relationship with and been working for a long time. And like, I always Want to bring in these trusted partners back. But there is all you start to kind of when you know actor and you kind of start to get a good feel of what they can do really well, you want to tap into those opportunities and maybe not. It's not the character that they are right now playing. So as an, as a concrete example, Il Cavilli and Matthew Poureda combined being Alan Wake. But I, I've been thinking about this idea that I want both of them an opportunity to shine purely on their own and let me figure out a perfect role. And that partly because of the story, but partly because of this opportunity led to Dr. Darling and now the latest incarnation of Thomas Zane in Alan Wake too.

[Roger Pokorny]

Hell yeah. And I mean you got a good performance out of Janina, which is next to impossible. So I mean great work on that one. Geralt of Rivia writes in and says, is there anyone in the gaming industry that you would like to collaborate with? Likewise, is there anyone outside of the industry Remedy would like to collaborate with? Good segue off of all these actors.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Any thoughts?

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Well, we did a collaboration with Kohima. Yeah, love him. Would love to do something again.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

I mean it's an interesting question. There are more collabs in Alan Wake 2 than ever before. Like, like all the like beyond poets of the floor as old gods of Asgard. But, but broadening that to like 20 plus talented musicians coming in with different custom made songs.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

Yeah.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

And that I felt was a huge success and worked so well and it was such a pleasure all through the way working with, with, with all of them creating these songs. So I think that we are naturally doing more and more collaborations at the same time. And this is like, like people get excited going like oh, I wish they would be, you know, collaborating. But then it's, it's at the same time I'm just interested what, what, what they will do on their own next and I'm looking forward to seeing that. So. So, you know, sometimes collapse work really well and sometimes it's like, you know, we both have our own thing going and we should keep on going.

[Roger Pokorny]

Demon Hacker. Demon Hacker is in the super chats going, when are we getting that Remedy Cross Kojima game? You know what I mean?

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Well, I both weren't extremely busy. I was in the spring visiting Tokyo and got the pleasure of meeting Hideo and visiting his studio and he really, really wanted to scan me. And so I sat down at the scanner and I was like, I'm, I'm happy to do this. Whatever you decide to do with it just interested in seeing like where my kind of likeness pops up.

[Sam Lake]

Yeah, you just looked at me, said, surprise me. Whatever.

[Roger Pokorny]

He's like, well, this is my personal collection. I've tried to scan everybody in the world a database. Gentlemen, thank you so much for spending the start of your very busy morning with us. Congratulations on 30 years.

[Sam Lake]

And congratulations to Sam for the lifetime achievement award.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Roger Pokorny]

Of course. Yeah. Big week for you. Except.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah, yeah. A huge honor. Thank you. And congratulations for 10 years.

[Roger Pokorny]

Oh, thank you.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

And here is for 20 years. 20 next year. So I hear 30 is a really, really big role.

[Roger Pokorny]

It's the big one. Cheers, everybody. Thank you so much for coming over, everybody. And thank you for watching. Remember fbc Firebreak is coming out this summer. That's all we've said.

[Mikael Kasurinen]

Yeah, that's all we've said.

[Roger Pokorny]

What about control 2 is coming out sometime as well? Eventually.

[Ilkka V. Kallio]

It's gonna be eventually. Yes.

[Roger Pokorny]

Okay. Okay. And remedy's celebrating 30 years. If you are one of those people who hasn't played Control or Alan Wake 2, get your life together. Get over there. Max Payne, of course. As well. Remember, of course. This has been the Kinda Funny Gamescast. Each and every weekday we come to you with the biggest topics in games. Whether they be reviews, previews or conversations we need to have. We're here on YouTube.com kindafunnygames, Twitch TV, kindafunnygames, podcast services around the globe. We of course are a business all about live talk shows. So right after this, you are getting Kinda Funny games daily with Blessing and Ben Starr. Then it's Kinda Funny game showdown with a bunch of guests. Then it's Alien vs. Predator in review. Then it's more of Nick's Nuzlocke stream. So you don't have to go anywhere. If you're missing any of those because you're listening or watching later, they're all up in YouTube.com kindafunnygames and podcast services around the globe. Until next time, it's been our pleasure to serve.