Jason Schreier on EVERYTHING WB Games Did Wrong - Kinda Funny Gamescast

Summary

Kinda Funny Gamescast: Jason Schreier on EVERYTHING WB Games Did Wrong

Released on February 26, 2025

In this compelling episode of the Kinda Funny Gamescast, hosts Andy Cortez, Greg “GameOverGreggy” Miller, and Roger Pokorny engage in an in-depth conversation with renowned games journalist Jason Schreier. The discussion primarily revolves around the tumultuous state of Warner Brothers (WB) Games, examining the factors that led to recent shutdowns, canceled projects, and shifts in leadership. This summary encapsulates the key points, insightful analyses, and notable quotes from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for both regular listeners and newcomers alike.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Andy Cortez setting the stage for a day packed with gaming news, including updates on WB Games and the impending expiration of the Nemesis system patent in 2036. He teases discussions about budget allocations affecting ten games and hints at deep dives into the latest PlayStation, Xbox, and Nintendo developments.

• Andy Cortez [00:00]: "Today's stories include even more updates on WB games and Wonder Woman the Nemesis system patent expiring in 2036."

As the conversation unfolds, Jason Schreier joins the hosts to shed light on the inner workings and controversies surrounding WB Games.

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2. The Downfall of WB Games

Jason Schreier delves into the crux of the issue: the mismanagement and strategic failures within WB Games that have culminated in significant studio shutdowns and project cancellations.

• Jason Schreier [05:00]: "A lot of people are like, oh, fucking David Zaslav ruining everything... But Zaslav has nothing to do with this."

He emphasizes that the problems at WB Games predate current leadership changes, attributing the decline to longstanding indecisiveness and a lack of clear vision.

• Jason Schreier [06:25]: "WB Games was always kind of like, in this intractable position. They were never going to sell, other than, I think they sold one mobile playdemic."

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3. Monolith's Closure and Its Implications

One of the most significant developments discussed is the shutdown of Monolith, a studio with a 31-year legacy renowned for titles like Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor. Schreier provides a detailed timeline of events leading to its closure.

• Jason Schreier [12:00]: "Monolith just shut down. That is like the big story here."

He recounts how Monolith struggled with project Legacy, an ambitious attempt at a procedural narrative game, which ultimately failed to align with WB's preference for established franchises. The refusal to pivot away from Legacy strained the relationship between Monolith and WB's top executives.

• Jason Schreier [14:11]: "Monolith has been around for 30 years... They were working on a new IP, and Warner Brothers knew they weren't going to allow this to happen."

The cancellation of the Wonder Woman game further exacerbated the studio's challenges, forcing Monolith to rebuild amidst ongoing corporate turmoil.

• Jason Schreier [21:55]: "By the way, this is their big drastic movement. And now they're going to see what the fruits of this new strategy look like over the next couple of years."

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4. Impact on Other WB Studios

The conversation extends to other WB Studios like WB Montreal and TT Games, highlighting a pattern of closures and strategic realignments.

• Jason Schreier [36:05]: "WB Montreal after Gotham Knights... They wound up putting some people on Wonder Woman and even some other games throughout the org."

He explains that such moves have left studios like WB Montreal in precarious positions, often relegated to support roles without substantial project backing.

• Jason Schreier [38:37]: "They get into mobile, a lot of stuff in mobile that they hope will hit in a way that some of their other mobile games did not."

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5. Leadership Changes and Their Consequences

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the leadership vacuum at WB Games, particularly following the departure of David Haddad and the appointment of JB Perret.

• Jason Schreier [30:07]: "So Hadad is gone. So in his place is this guy named JB Perrette who is the head of games and streaming."

Perret's approach aims to steer WB Games back to profitability by consolidating focus on major franchises and cutting non-performing segments.

• Jason Schreier [32:42]: "He strikes me as a smart guy, as a guy who knows what he's talking about... I think there is a vision of the future for WB games that looks pretty good. It just might take a few years before we actually get there."

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6. Games as a Service (GaaS) vs. Established Franchises

The hosts and Schreier debate WB Games' strategic pivot towards GaaS and big-name franchises, questioning the sustainability and alignment with their core strengths.

• Jason Schreier [39:29]: "We have not had that experience. Gary Whittaker comes in and complains a lot, but that's about it. That's all I know."

Schreier argues that while GaaS is a trending model, WB Games' execution has been flawed, leading to products like Suicide Squad and Multiverses falling short of expectations.

• Jason Schreier [34:45]: "Maybe we'll see how that looks, like...they are in for a rude awakening."

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7. The Nemesis System Patent Expiration

The episode also touches upon the expiration of the Nemesis system patent, a pivotal technology in game development.

• Jason Schreier [53:37]: "I don't know. I think that stuff is overblown because... you're not going to recreate it somewhere else."

While acknowledging the patent's significance, Schreier downplays its immediate impact on the industry.

• Jason Schreier [55:17]: "Patent a video game? It really is."

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8. Future Outlook and Remaining Studios

Looking ahead, Schreier provides cautious optimism about the remaining WB Studios, suggesting that with new leadership, there might be a path to recovery.

• Jason Schreier [32:45]: "I think Zaslav is interested in doubling down on games and really just kind of... strategy for doing that is to double down on the big franchises, which seems like a smart one."

He also mentions upcoming projects from TT Games and the potential revival of Rocksteady Studios with new ventures.

• Jason Schreier [44:32]: "Rocksteady is making a Batman game, returning to their roots."

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9. Concluding Thoughts

The episode wraps up with the hosts reflecting on the intense discussion, acknowledging the challenges facing WB Games while remaining hopeful for a positive turnaround under new leadership.

• Greg Miller [56:48]: "This has been the kind of funny games cast it has been for February 26, 2025. We appreciate all of you all. We will see you on Games Daily after this."

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Notable Quotes

• Jason Schreier [05:00]: "A lot of people are like, oh, fucking David Zaslav ruining everything... But Zaslav has nothing to do with this."

• Jason Schreier [12:00]: "Monolith just shut down. That is like the big story here."

• Jason Schreier [14:11]: "Monolith has been around for 30 years... They were working on a new IP, and Warner Brothers knew they weren't going to allow this to happen."

• Jason Schreier [32:45]: "I think Zaslav is interested in doubling down on games and really just kind of... strategy for doing that is to double down on the big franchises, which seems like a smart one."

• Jason Schreier [53:37]: "I don't know. I think that stuff is overblown because... you're not going to recreate it somewhere else."

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Conclusion

This episode of Kinda Funny Gamescast provides a thorough examination of the systemic issues plaguing WB Games, from leadership indecisiveness to strategic missteps in game development. Jason Schreier offers invaluable insights into the internal dynamics and external pressures that have led to the current state of WB's gaming division. With the changes at the executive level and a renewed focus on blockbuster franchises, there remains a glimmer of hope for the future. However, time will tell if WB Games can navigate these challenges and reclaim its position in the competitive gaming industry.

Transcript

[Andy Cortez]

Today's stories include even more updates on WB games and Wonder Woman the Nemesis system patent expiring in 2036. And 10 games are taking up all the money. We'll have all this and more because this is Kind of Funny Games Daily. Welcome gamers. This is Kind of Funny Games daily for Wednesday, February 26, 2025. I'm the Nitro rifle Andy Cortez and I'm joined by the lock, Roger Pokorny.

[Roger Pokorny]

Happy to be here.

[Andy Cortez]

Good morning, Roger.

[Roger Pokorny]

Big day.

[Andy Cortez]

Big day.

[Greg Miller]

Big day.

[Andy Cortez]

A lot of news, a lot of things we got to get to. You know we do this show each every weekday we run you through the nerd news topics you need to know about live on YouTube, Twitch and podcast services around the globe. If you love what we do, support us with the Kind of Funny membership on Patreon, YouTube and now Spotify and Apple podcasts to get all of our shows ad free, watch us record them live and and get a daily exclusive show. And for a chance to be a part of the show, submit your thoughts and opinions as YouTube super chats as we go. Remember, we're a small little business. We're a little baby business. We need your help to kind of keep the lights and the mics on 11 person's business. All about live talk shows today after Kind of Funny Games Daily, you'll get the games cast where the topic is very much on topic. How would we save WB games and the stream afterwards? Really big stuff. We're returning to Blessed Dark Souls Playthrough.

[Roger Pokorny]

On the big set.

[Andy Cortez]

On the big set. Very excited about that snow.

[Greg Miller]

Mike.

[Andy Cortez]

Mike will be here.

[Jason Schreier]

Here.

[Andy Cortez]

You know what? I don't want to admit, admit that I'll miss him. But I miss him a little bit, Robin. Just a little bit. Just a little bit.

[Jason Schreier]

Just a little bit.

[Andy Cortez]

I miss the guy. If you're a kind of funny member, you'll get today's Greg Way and you can get Alien vs Predator in review this afternoon we're talking about Predator too.

[Jason Schreier]

You want some candy?

[Andy Cortez]

God, what a movie. What a disaster that movies. Can't wait to talk about that. Thank you to our Patreon producers Delaney Twinning, Carl Jacobs, Omega Buster and Karen Lner. Today we are brought to you by Greg Miller's live Chicago show and better help. But we'll tell you about that later. For now let's begin for let's be what is and forever will be the Roper Report. It's time for some news. We have five stories today. Baker dozen and we had five stories but before we get into the actual real stuff, Greg Miller, come on to the set. Come join us. CEO Greg Miller.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah.

[Andy Cortez]

CEO Greg Miller.

[Greg Miller]

Hello, everybody. It's me, Greg Miller. How are you guys doing?

[Andy Cortez]

He's not getting a $23 billion bonus or whatever.

[Greg Miller]

I'm not.

[Andy Cortez]

Unless you go to patreon.com kind of funny right now.

[Greg Miller]

Money where your mouth is. Imagine the last 24 hours for Greg Miller, the biggest DC Comics fan, y'all know, all right? I get to hang out, I get to see my friends, I get to come to work, be great. And then guess what? Jason Schreier comes in. He rips away my heart and soul. He says, WB Games, getting rid of Monolith, getting rid of this Wonder Woman game, right? A whole bunch other shake over there. That leads to me running away from Tim Gettys. I'm supposed to be working on these split fiction videos with him, right? Run away from that. Run out here, do a Gamescast where I just rant and rave and whatever. Then I'm like, finally put it behind me. I can start healing. But then you're like, we should do a great Gamescast today where we save WB games. I'm like, yes, we should. We're going to do that. I'm like, well, I'll have that morning block that 10 to 11 to do email to plan the show to have a great time. Wake up. Ben says something. I push him out of the way. I look at my phone as I do as a dad. Go to Blue sky. And what do I find in my daddy? I'm hungry.

[Jason Schreier]

Get out of here.

[Greg Miller]

I'm worried. Open blue sky my DMs. And I find a DM from the one, the only Jason Schreier who says, hey, could I come on Games Daily to talk to you and answer some of your all's questions about this WB thing? And I said yes, because we were wrong or because there's something. He's like, no, no. I'm like, okay, great, great, great. So please welcome to the show, the one, the only, Bloombergs, Jason Schreier.

[Jason Schreier]

I like, I like that I. I get one of these, like square boxes. Like, what was that, like, 80s? Was there a show or a movie where like their people were in these.

[Greg Miller]

Little Brady Bunch, I mean, Holly Squares, but they were in person.

[Jason Schreier]

No, it was like a sci fi show where like the people were like captured in these little squares. I don't know, someone else.

[Greg Miller]

Phantom Zone, Superman.

[Andy Cortez]

I'm thinking of that Michael Jackson video where they're doing that thing you Know they're looking.

[Greg Miller]

That was very different. Black. Black.

[Andy Cortez]

Anyway, Jason, welcome to this.

[Greg Miller]

I don't know why you wanted to be.

[Andy Cortez]

I know it's a different song.

[Jason Schreier]

Is it?

[Greg Miller]

I thought it was.

[Andy Cortez]

You're singing, who's bad? You're black. Who's bad? You know it. You know.

[Greg Miller]

So how black? You're black or white.

[Jason Schreier]

Doesn't matter if you're black.

[Greg Miller]

That's a good one. Yeah. Is that the one where he turned into a panther, too, in the middle of it? I never forget Fox. Fox premiered that on just regular tv. And I was eating this cake my mom made. Jason, how are you?

[Jason Schreier]

Did you know that Michael Jackson stole a song from Weird Al? And he. He. Weird Al came up with this great hit called Eat It. And then Weird Al and then Michael Jackson was like, oh, I'm gonna take that and maybe beat it.

[Greg Miller]

Beatles either. Jason, how are you? Of course. Breaking news left and right. How you feeling?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, man. I was in the middle of an interview with someone yesterday and happened to see on my phone, like, getting a couple texts that were like, hey, Warner Brothers just shut down Monolith and canceled Wonder Woman. And I was like, sorry, person I'm interviewing, can we reschedule this? So I literally. I, like, had to cut off the middle of the interview, rescheduled it for today, and then rescheduled it again because I was like, I want to cut on Games Daily and talk to these guys about Warner Brothers. Because, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that I feel like maybe context that people should have or clarity about the situation that people don't have. I mean, just to give you an example, and this is just, like, one of many things that I've been thinking of. A lot of people are like, oh, fucking David Zaslav ruining everything. Like, I can't believe Zaslav is doing more tax cuts, blowing up his games business. But, like, Zaslav has nothing to do with this. This. This is the result. What happened yesterday and what has happened recently is a result of decisions that have been made since long before Zaslav took over. Like when Zaslav took over in April 2022, which is when he became CEO of Warner Brothers Discovery. Monolith by that point, had already gone four and a half years without releasing a game and lost all of its leadership group. So this stuff has nothing to do with Zaslav. It's kind of this history. If you. You have to look at the last decade of Warner Brothers to understand why and how a lot of this stuff has been happening.

[Greg Miller]

Do you think so? I understand that. Is it still right to just blame leadership in general for WB Interactive? Right. Where is the reason Monolith isn't getting anything out is because everybody's getting in the way of it.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah. So, okay, so I think maybe the best way to do this is we can kind of go studio by studio. But I also. I want to answer any questions you guys have, because I know you had some lingering questions. I was awesome.

[Greg Miller]

I hope you brought a PowerPoint.

[Jason Schreier]

I have a PowerPoint. It's like, so we're going to make the next Destiny. It's going to be Destiny. Wait. Oh, shit. Different PowerPoint. So Warner Brothers Interactive, for about 10 years, from 2015 on, it was run by a guy named David Haddad, who Warner Brothers announced last month that he's going to be stepping down because shit has hit the fan. But for about 10 years, David Haddad ran that studio. And when he took over WB Interactive and the games division, he inherited this thriving publisher. Arkham Knight had just come out, or was about to come out. They were really firing on all cylinders. Mortal Kombat was doing really well. They had a lot of stuff going for them. And over the last decade, they've gone in the complete opposite direction. And we've seen a lot of these studios flounder now. Three of them are shut down. We've seen a lot of these game franchises go nowhere. We've seen companies like Rocksteady going, making games that nobody wanted. Um, we've seen companies like WB Montreal kind of struggling to get pitches off the ground. And it's really just been a disastrous few years. And the only reason I think that Haddad kind of survived 10 years is because Hogwarts Legacy came out and did such big numbers. It was such an anomaly that it saved his job for a couple more years. But, yeah, I mean, his tenure has not been great. Um, and a lot of people I've spoken to have worked with him describe it as like this kind of classic executive indecision and refusal to make calls. Because making calls means exposing yourself to risk. And if you make calls and expose yourself to Risk, then you lose your cushy job, and it's better to stay seated. And this is also under the landscape of Warner Brothers having all these. This corporate turmoil. So Warner brothers was like, AT&T and Time Warner merged, and then that didn't work out. And then Warner Brothers got split out under Discovery. And this whole time there are rumors that the games division was for sale. So it's really just A mess from the top on down. And I imagine it was very difficult for any executive to succeed in that situation. But, yes, a lot of people point the finger, and I think it's fair to at Haddad for everything that has happened and everything that happened yesterday.

[Greg Miller]

Had you heard the same rumor that they were trying to sell off these things, but not the IP and then license them back and yada dah, dah, dah?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, that was all public. I mean, that was never going to happen. Like, nobody is going to buy. Like, why would anyone, by Rocksteady, just to then have to pay, like, to license the Batman IP from Warner? Like, it makes no sense. Because by buying a studio, it's not just that you're dishing out money, however many hundreds of millions of dollars to buy the studio, you then have to pay all those salaries. And I saw this being discussed yesterday when people were like, why didn't Warner Brothers just sell Monolith instead of shutting it down? It says no one wants to buy an expensive studio in Seattle, pay those salaries, and then have to start from scratch or on a new ip or, like, license Wonder Woman and pay those fees. None of the math doesn't make sense there. So, yes, Warner Brothers was always kind of like, in this intractable position. They were never going to sell, other than, I think they sold one mobile playdemic. It was their mobile division, but the rest of it, I mean, no, they were never going to sell it.

[Greg Miller]

Okay.

[Andy Cortez]

Is it just a situation, Jason, where these people making these decisions don't really want to be in this business? It just feels like it's. It seems like a lot of people up top that you're mentioning that are too scared to make the. Make the call or to take a risk like that, it feels like they're kind of not in the, I guess, right line of business. It's like they came from a different division. They're like, oh, I don't know shit about games. I'm not really willing to make a call on any of this.

[Jason Schreier]

I think part of so Hadad and his crew, I mean, some of them came from other businesses he had been at. I believe he was at Vivendi before Warner Brothers, and before that, he just kind of bounced around toy and entertainment companies and before that, Harvard Business School. I think the MBA approach is very much to just kind of avoid making decisions as much as possible, because, yeah, I mean, when you maintain the status quo, especially in a position of, like, corporate turmoil, where you want to be in your chair when all of the dust is settled and like you want to be in making that sweet, sweet executive money for as long as possible. Making risky calls and putting big money into things can. Can make you a target. You have to be the person who' like justifying to your bosses why you decided to greenlight this whatever and give them $100 million to do whatever. Of course, if you don't make calls, you're still burning through tons and tons of money because you're just paying people salaries to like do very little or do nothing and accomplish nothing. But. But that is seen as less risky than actually making the calls. And that's just one part of this, right? There's also a lot of trend chasing. There's also a lot of just kind of lack of vision, I would say, for a games division and what that would look like. So yeah, I mean, let me get into Monolith, right, Because Monolith is the big story of this week. Monolith just shut down. That is like the big story here. I want to talk about exactly what happened to Monolith because I think there's some context that maybe not everybody has. So Monolith has been around for 30 years, 31 years. I believe it lasted until yesterday. Making a whole lot of cult classic games. Fear no one lives forever. But really in 2014 they had their breakout hit, which is Middle. Middle Earth, Shadow of Mordor. And that was by far their most successful game. It was critically acclaimed. I think it was like named it nominated for game of the year. That game did really well. They made a sequel, Shadow of War, which didn't do quite as well because people were not fans of the loot boxes. That's a whole nother story that game comes on.

[Greg Miller]

I forgot all about that being a part of that.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, yeah, that's. I mean, talk about trend chasing, right? Loot boxes are cool. Let's stick them in this game that like has no need for loot boxes. It was very strange. And they removed it them like six months later. They were like, oh shit, this is a bad idea. We're just damaged. So after Shadow of War, they decide we don't want to do another one. So instead we want to do a new ip. And the whole leadership group gets together, they start working on this new ip. It's codenamed Legacy. The idea is it's going to be like a procedural narrative sort of thing, kind of experimenting with some of the ideas they explored with the Nemesis system and that procedural story generation. And they spend about three years working on this. And during this time and here is where you get the crux of the, like, refusal to make decisions during this time. It's kind of clear to people at Warner Brothers and Burbank and their HQ that, like, this game isn't going to happen because Warner Brothers, as an institution, is not interested in new ip. They want to have their game studios working on their big franchises. Superhero games, Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, et cetera, Mortal Kombat. But. But here Monolith is spending all this time trying to make a new ip, and there's a lot of just kind of like, it's almost like a standoff between the two parties where, like, Warner Brothers knows they're not going to allow this to happen. Monolith has a lot of sway and a lot of clout because you have these guys who have been working on these games for a while, had a lot of success with the, with the Middle Earth games. And so they feel like they have the autonomy and the clout to be able to do what they want. There are some attempts here and there to kind of like squeeze IPs into this. This legacy, this game that they're making. Doesn't quite work out. And it really.

[Greg Miller]

They were trying to put in. Do you know what IPs they were trying to put in?

[Jason Schreier]

I don't know exactly. I mean, I think they tried, like, on paper, experimenting with as many as they. All of them. I mean, just trying to figure out, like, can we grab this onto it? It didn't work. Again, we're talking about three years here. So it went through a lot of different iterations. This is a new ip. New IP always takes a long time, but people there, I mean, they were excited about it looking beautiful and it having cool procedural narrative ideas. I don't know if it would have ever worked, but that's what they were doing. Right? Cut to 2021. I believe it was the spring of that year. Maybe like March, April, something like that. But around then, finally, word comes down, hey, this is not going to happen. And it's kind of. It was a lot of stringing people along. A lot of different people at different levels were told, like, maybe there's a chance of this, maybe not. Is this going to happen? I don't know. Quick digression here. I don't know about you guys, but I recently, like, within the past few years, I've had some experience kind of pitching things to Hollywood executives, people at the Hollywood streaming networks and whatnot.

[Greg Miller]

We have not had that experience. Gary Whittaker comes in and complains a lot, but that's about it. That's all I know.

[Jason Schreier]

I don't know if you guys are out there pitching a kind of funny show.

[Andy Cortez]

Greg pitched to John Drake, Small Watto.

[Greg Miller]

Yeah.

[Andy Cortez]

What if Watto was Small Watt?

[Greg Miller]

A video game off the ground.

[Jason Schreier]

Okay, well, Drake, he's the one to go to. He. He'll. He'll greenlight everything. Yeah. So what happens when you're pitching Hollywood? It's really bizarre. It's. They do this thing called the Hollywood no, which is like, they say in. On these meetings, in these rooms, they're like, I fucking love it. Like, this is awesome. Let's keep chatting. Can't wait to work with you. And then you just never hear from them again. And that, I feel like, is a lot of what that culture was kind of very much in place in Burbank at WB Games, because there was a lot of. Just kind of, especially on this Monolith project, a lot of, like, just months and months and months of dragging things out or, like, meetings. I was. It was described to me as like, people at a high level would go to these meetings with people at Warner and they would leave the room and just, like, say to each other, like, what just happened in that meeting? Like, was anything actually decided or figured out? Or was it all just, like, platitudes? And that's kind of what this is like, what it's like working with this regime at Warner. And it was very frustrating for a lot of people. So, Anyway, cut to April 2021. Legacy is canceled. And Monolith's leadership team, the entire leadership team, quits every single director. I put this on Blue Sky. Maybe you can screen cap this. But I put this on Blue sky.

[Greg Miller]

It'Ll break Barrett's amazing formatting of all of us. But, yeah, we can just put it.

[Jason Schreier]

Make another box. It's easy.

[Andy Cortez]

Let's do that real quick.

[Greg Miller]

You got Small Watto down there. Put a web browser on Barry. You're killing it. Barrett, we know we're throwing a lot. There's Barrett already out there killing it. Hold your phone up to your camera bar.

[Jason Schreier]

So Monolith's entire leadership team. If you look at the Moby games for Shadow of War, you'll see this leadership group. It's seven people, their directors. All seven of those people left the studio when Legacy was canceled. I believe six, five or six of them would then go on to start a new company called Cliffhanger Games, which is under ea, and they are currently working on the Black Panther game for ea.

[Greg Miller]

Okay. So this is another game I'm sure we'll never see.

[Jason Schreier]

Wow, that's. I'll stay. Save that for a future. This is. I have no idea what's going on back then, but. Okay, so they all leave, right? And so this is also around the time. So like, mid-2001. 21. This is also around the time when Monolith is given Wonder Woman. Like, basically the decision is made. And I don't know exactly who made the call, but it's very clear that Warner Brothers isn't interested in new ip. And so Monolith winds up taking Wonder Woman and deciding we're going to make a Wonder Woman game. And by the way, if you look at the timing of this. So this is spring 2021. The Wonder Woman game is announced in December of 2021. You guys might remember I mentioned on kind of Funny Games Daily, I think around game awards time, a few months ago, I was like, when Wonder Woman was announced, like, that was nothing. Like, literally. I mean, if you look at the timeline here, they start working on this game, or they take over this game in April, May, June, ish of 2021. They announced it six months later, which I think was. That probably happened for a lot of reasons. But one of the reasons was like, hey, like Warner, we need to light a fire because we need to actually get something shipped here. Because Monolith hasn't actually shipped anything in four years now. And they are starting from scratch. But here's the thing that happens also is that in addition to having to start from scratch on this. On this Wonder Woman project, which, by the way, I think. Well, I'll get into the kind of the tech of it all in a second. But in addition to having to start from scratch on this Wonder Woman project and just basically start a new game, they also no longer have their studio leadership. So they also have to rebuild their studio. And then it's not just the directors, too. Like, a bunch of other people under them wind up going to Cliffhanger, too, and leaving Monolith. And Monolith is essentially eviscerated at this point. And they have to spend a lot of time rebuilding. And there are a lot of good people remaining there. A lot of people speak really highly of this guy David Hewitt, who took over as the studio head of Monolith and I believe was still there up until the end, but still, I mean, under any circumstances, like, rebuilding a studio to that extent alone can take years. But trying to do that while making a game is like, next to impossible. Like, imagine if tomorrow all of Kinda Funny's leadership quit, I mean, maybe that.

[Andy Cortez]

Would be the best thing that could happen.

[Jason Schreier]

But like, imagine having to work on projects while trying to rebuild your studio and rebuild your company at the same time. It is crazy. And that's what they had to do. It was an impossible situation. By the way, this. We're still in the timeline. We're still 2021. So again, a year before Zaslav even took over WB Discovery even happened.

[Andy Cortez]

So when you mentioned them showing off that little tiny trailer at Game Awards, that's like the most extreme form of, you know, whenever people always complain, why are you showing this so early? It's like, well, people do this for recruiting and to try to get a new. But this is like the most extreme form of that where it's like, we don't have anybody here, really.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, it was like, we need to recruit desperately. Also, we need to have something announced because, like, that'll help us. A lot of times if a game studio has something announced, like, it can help prevent cancellation a little. Obviously didn't in this case, but certainly gave them a little more time than they might have if the game was never announced or something like that. So, yeah. And then so there's also this tech issue, which I won't get into the specifics in part because I don't actually know them all. But like, my understanding is that there was a debate, are we going to stick with our like internal studio tech or we're going to use Unreal Engine? And they wound up sticking with the internal studio tech. But the loss of some of their kind of engineering talent that had been around for years and years and helped make that tech made it a lot trickier to do that, even though I'm sure it also had its advantages. When you have like a tech that has really good tools or good. A good editor or whatever else it is, you want to stick with that. But yeah, that was also would lead to some problems over the next few years as well. So, yeah, so they're working on this game, trying to rebuild their studio at the same time. Really, really difficult. And they go through a lot. And then the game is essentially rebooted. They switched directors, I believe this is like beginning of last year or end of 2023, so close to the time when Greg Miller, insider extraordinaire, said that he heard that it was in trouble. And. Yes.

[Andy Cortez]

Do you have any idea of how. I know you said it was rebooted, but do you know like a percentage of how much in development the game was. Before it got rebooted.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah. I mean, it's hard. None of this is linear. Right. And it's always kind of like an amorphous thing. But I will say the main thing that was rebooted, from my understanding, is that the Nemesis system. They had been playing around with this idea originally that Wonder Woman would have a nemesis system where, like, you befriend people and then they. It's like the Nemesis system in reverse, where, like, they become your allies. And they were playing around with how to make that work, which is, like, very weird in theme with Wonder Woman and so on. And it was so woke.

[Andy Cortez]

Everybody's gotta be friends.

[Greg Miller]

They rebooted. They were working on Wonder Man.

[Jason Schreier]

Well, kindness is woke. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then they rebooted it to be more of a kind of God of war style, more traditional action adventure game. But by then, I mean, it was kind of too late. Especially because last year was so bad for the Warner Brothers organization. Last year, Suicide Squad was humongous flop. They wrote off $200 million because of that. Multiverses and Quidditch Champions also both flopped. Wrote off another $100 million because of that. Last year was so bad that that is essentially what led to Warner Brothers ousting Haddad and then everything that has just happened. And so, yeah, that's kind of what led us to today. I had been hearing for a while, for at least the last couple of months, that Wonder Woman was almost certainly getting canceled. I alluded to it in the story that I ran a few Warner Brothers and, like, Haddad's regime. I think I said a couple times that the fate in that article, that the fate of that game was in question. In fact, JB Perret, who I'll get to in a second, but he's the big boss of the games division. He had been saying that, like, we're going to focus on these big franchises. And one of them, the main ones are, I think it's Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Mortal Kombat and then dc. But dc, specifically, Batman, he would mention. So he would be like, we're open to other ideas, but, like, specifically focus on Batman. So very clear that, like. And Rocksteady is doing a new Batman game. I reported that a couple of weeks ago, but very, very early.

[Andy Cortez]

What about Captain Boomerang? Like, no, no, no.

[Jason Schreier]

Batman. Yeah, right.

[Greg Miller]

It's.

[Jason Schreier]

It's very. I mean, if you look at how we got here, it's all very wild. Like, the fact, man, Suicide Squad, I could go on forever about that game and the fact that you take a studio that is renowned and acclaimed for making these single player narrative action adventure games and put him on a multiplayer live shooter. That alone is just like such a, like, unfathomable misstep. But also going with the Suicide Squad is just crazy.

[Greg Miller]

Like, why do they keep trying. Stop.

[Jason Schreier]

It's really.

[Greg Miller]

Talk about fiddle in the bag. You made Batman, you made the Arkham series. Just make these kind of games.

[Andy Cortez]

I think if it had the slipknot guy from the movie.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah, that would really push it for.

[Greg Miller]

Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

Jason, I want to ask. I know we're talking about Monolith, but Player first games. Right. Like, that was something that them closing down. We heard about Multiverses, of course, ending support. Right. But then them buying the studio seven months ago and then shutting it down. Do you have any information on that? Or what was the, you know, the idea behind that?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, I'm trying to think. I mean, I've heard a couple of things secondhand that I don't feel super comfortable sharing publicly yet, but that's a journalist right there.

[Andy Cortez]

That's a journalist.

[Jason Schreier]

I don't know. I often say things on this show and then they get aggregated. Not the stuff. No. I will say that in a case like that, like when you have a studio acquisition that is kind of tied to the release of a game, sometimes the studio has some leverage in cases like that where it's kind of like, hey, if you want this to be a long term relationship, if you want us to keep working on this game, assuming it's a success, let's. Let's put a ring on it. If you. If you want it, then put a ring on it. And let's, let's make this a long term relationship, that sort of thing. And I imagine that something similar happened here, But I'm not 100% sure. But I do know that, like, them buying Player first was a bet that Multiverses was going to be a success, which they really thought it would pay it out.

[Greg Miller]

Roger.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, yeah, man. But I want to get to. I want to talk about the current kind of regime, so.

[Greg Miller]

Well, hold on. I want to stop because you got a lot in the tank here. You want to talk about the other studios? I got questions about Dip Be Montreal. You have all this up your sleeve?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, I. I will get to that in a second.

[Greg Miller]

Then what I want to do, I want to do. Oh, I think we should do the ad break here is all I'm saying. Remind everybody. Of course, we can only do cool stuff like this live.

[Jason Schreier]

I can do the I can advertise for Warner Brothers here. Warner Brothers. It's a great place to work.

[Greg Miller]

Sounds like it. Pad your resume for three more months before it's all over. We couldn't do stuff like this. Have Jason run in here on our cool video wall without your support. We are Kind of Funny. We're all about live talk shows and if you love that, we'd love you to pick up a Kind of Funny membership either on patreon.com kinda funny, YouTube.com kindafunnygames, Apple or Spotify to get all of our shows ad free. And of course get your daily dose of me Greg Miller in a series I call Greg Way Right now. You're not using your benefits, so here's a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by me. Greg Miller, Chicago what are you doing Thursday, April 10th at 7pm the answer coming to my live show. That's right, Mrs. Miller's baby boy is coming back to Chicagoland and putting on a 90 minute one night only show live from the Goodwin Auditorium at Benedictine University in Lyle. I'm mixing a bit of up at Noon with a bit of my best Comic Con performances with a lot of my Chicago influences. I'm calling it A Late Night with Greg Miller and it's gonna offer never before heard adolescent tales, an interview with one of my favorite bands of all time, a conversation with Millie Ramsey about growing up in the Internet, spotlight, your live questions for me, and of course tons of fabulous video game prizes. Get your tickets [e-mail] Chicago and hey Midwest people. We never do shows out there, so this is your chance to see a Greg Miller stage show. Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin. We always talk about how we love to drive as Midwest people. So hit the road for an opportunity you may never get again. This is a fundraiser for Benedictine University. That's right, my childhood best friend Poe School. So get your tickets [e-mail] Chicago and I'll see you on April 10th. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. It's always important for us to be aware of a relationship red flags we should avoid. But what if we focused more on looking for green flags in friends and partners? If you're not sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify green flags. Actively practice them in your relationships and embody the green flag. Energy yourself. Some of our best friends use better health and love. How helpful it can be for learning positive coping skills and how to set boundaries. It empowers you to be the best version of yourself. It isn't just for those who have experienced major trauma. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. And it serves over 5 million people worldwide. Discover your relationship green flags with better help. Visit betterhelp.com kindafunny to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H-E-L-P.com kindafunny betterhelp.com kinda funny. And we're back. And gentlemen, I have breaking news for you.

[Andy Cortez]

Greg, hit us with it.

[Greg Miller]

We're officially switching this into the kind of funny gamescast.

[Jason Schreier]

Oh, wow.

[Andy Cortez]

Okay.

[Greg Miller]

So if you've made it into this Games Cast long enough on your podcast feed saying, oh, they uploaded Games Daily. We didn't. We just are like, like, Jason's too good. We'll do Games Daily after this in the place of kind of funny Games cast. So this is your gamescast. Games Daily will happen after this. I digress. Jason, back to you.

[Jason Schreier]

I just sabotage the entire structure.

[Roger Pokorny]

No, you made it.

[Greg Miller]

I don't know if you heard earlier when we were just ranting and raving about the cake my mom served me during Michael Jackson's like, it's hard to derail this thing. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Where you're killing it. Jason, thank you so much for doing this with us. This.

[Jason Schreier]

Sure. Yeah. So let me just finish the thought real quick and then I'll open it up to you guys to ask other questions or about the other studios, whatever. But so Hadad is gone. So in his place is this guy named JB Perrette who is the head of games and streaming. And he. I think he's going to kind of slow down the search for a successor to be like the new president of WB Games. And I think he's going to take over and step in. And this is part of him being like, we need to return to profitability after an awful year there. We're making these cuts. We're canceling this game. We're going to try to get refocus on all this, this other stuff. And from a kind of. I've talked to him once. I talked to Paret a few weeks ago. He strikes me as a smart guy, as a guy who knows what he's talking about. He talked a little bit when I was talking to him about, like, how game development is a nonlinear process and he's understood that, and he understands that. And I was like, holy shit. Like, you're saying something that, like, most studio heads, like, it took them 20 years at all. You've been doing this for a year and hold on, time out.

[Greg Miller]

I love how smart you are and I love how smart we are. But so many people say, what is a nonlinear process when it comes to games?

[Jason Schreier]

What does that actually meaning that you would think that it's kind of like, I don't know, like, writing a book or writing a script, or you just kind of like, do things in order and they happen, and you can kind of like holistically look at that. As opposed to game development where you might have fits and starts, you might work on features only to find that they're not actually fun and you have to, like, completely throw them out and. And they completely change how things work. Or, like, you build a level and then the combat system changes, and so you have to redesign your entire level to account for the new combat system. That sort of stuff where it's just all constantly changing all the time.

[Andy Cortez]

It's like us, you know? Yeah, it's nonlinear.

[Greg Miller]

Nonlinear podcasting is what I call this.

[Jason Schreier]

It's funny you could argue that, like, that is one of the reasons game development is so expensive. And maybe that's a problem. But that's another different kind of funny games they like. Anyway, this guy jb who took over, he came in and made this fucking shitty, awful call to, like, cut a bunch of jobs, which is part of his, like, mandate to restore profitability, yada, yada, yada. But I do think there's like, a little bit of ray of hope. I mean, I guess we'll see how he does taking over the role now. I've heard good things from people around him. People say he, like, asks the right questions. People are certainly higher on him than they were on Haddad. I think a lot of people all across the org, studio heads all across WB are not exactly crying to see Hadad go, to see a regime change there. I think there was a lot of frustration towards him. And I do think there is, like, a vision of the future for W games that looks pretty good. It just might take a few years before we actually get there.

[Greg Miller]

Do you think they get enough time to get there?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, because, like, I don't see them doing this only to then just like, double back and cut costs. I guess. You never really know.

[Greg Miller]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

But, like, I think Zaslav, like, as early as, like recently as a year ago, was being like Hogwarts Legacy. Holy shit. This is the future. Like, I think they are interested in doubling down on games and really just kind of. They see games as a place of growth and their strategy for doing that is to double down on the big franchises, which seems like a smart one. I guess we'll see what happens. I mean, Hogwarts Legacy was such an anomaly that if they're expecting all their other games to hit that level, they are in for a rude awakening.

[Greg Miller]

But when is an executive board ever misplaced, you know, sales expectations?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, even like Hogwarts Legacy 2, there's no way that it meets those same levels of expectations because the hunger for like a new Harry Potter game is so not there anymore. It's been satiated. But yeah, we'll see. We'll see.

[Andy Cortez]

Yeah, that was. I kept on bringing up that point yesterday on the Gamescast. It's like that's the best and worst thing that could have happened to WB games. I think, like, and obviously made a shitload of money. 30 plus million copies. It was 30 million copies as of October of last year. So who knows where it's at now. But like now everybody thinks up top that like every game can do that now. All of our stuff can do that. It's like, no man, like Harry Potter is. The people buying Harry Potter are the people that are also playing free to play Call of Duty and Fortnite and those like, there's. There's such a massive fan base there that isn't necessarily going out to buy Uncharted 4.

[Greg Miller]

Now we're back to Max Matt Piscatella, right? Talking about this 40% that play, you know, this one game.

[Andy Cortez]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, it's. I get the sense that someone like Paret is smart enough to recognize that that's not going to happen, but I think their standards are going to be pretty high. Like these are all going to be big investments that they expect to be billion dollar franchises or billion dollar games. Like, I, I don't think they are going to settle for like a game that sells 2 million copies. So we'll see what that looks like.

[Greg Miller]

Okay, so that's the executive team, that's the monolith stuff. One thing I was wondering yesterday, you know, you'd heard rumors that this Wonder Woman game would be canceled forever. Had you. Had they also been expecting the studio closure? Was this news to everyone yesterday?

[Jason Schreier]

Complete shock and surprise to everyone. I mean, it makes sense if you think about it. Like, here's a studio that is not really the same people that it was eight years ago. When they released the last game, hasn't really seen in that long. Was would have to start from scratch on a new thing or be a support studio, which, I mean, what is there to support at this point? You already have WB Montreal essentially being a support studio. So like, it doesn't really make sense. Sense from a. Obviously it's awful from a human level, but if you're looking at it just on paper, like from a sociopath executive level, who has to make these decisions, it doesn't really make sense to keep them around if you're canceling the game. But no, as far as. Like I. So I had heard, not forever ago really. It was only within the last month or two, maybe two months ago, that I started hearing Wonder Woman was almost certainly going to get canceled. But no, as far as I know, like, everybody was shocked that the studio was closed. Especially a studio with a name with that kind of legacy attached to it.

[Greg Miller]

Sure. So then talk to me about WB Montreal. You say they're basically a support studio. Where are we at with them? Where do you want to talk about their journey?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, man. So it's a long one. I mean, they have been around for a long time since like 2010 or something like that. They came out with Arkham Origins, which I think some people appreciate, even though it was always kind of the black sheep of the Arkham games, the one that Rocksteady didn't want to talk about, like, and just wanted to focus on their own.

[Greg Miller]

Here's the Arkham trilogy, another game.

[Jason Schreier]

And. And then they had a bunch of false starts. So like after Origins, they were working on two games. They were working on a Suicide Squad game and a Damian Wayne game. And then both of those were canceled one after another. And then there were they. They had this new mandate of like do a service game and also reinvent Batman. Like do a Batman game without Batman. Eventually the service stuff was kind of stripped out of that and that is what became Gotham Knights. That's a game that I think had a trouble development, as they all do. Do you know around reasons, do you.

[Andy Cortez]

Have any idea of like timeline wise, what these mandates were given out and then maybe like pulled out of. Hey, we're not doing that service stuff. Are we talking like 2019, 2018. Ish.

[Jason Schreier]

So that game started development Gotham Knights in 2017. And that's when the mandate from Haddad and team was they used to work you this word, this phrase, digitally powered. Which was like before games as a service became the big term, that was it. It was like, how are we going to like equip these games with long term revenue plans and digital content drops and blah, blah, blah.

[Andy Cortez]

It sounds way more fun. To their credit, Games as a service sounds very corporate.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, yeah, it does. But when you say digitally powered to like people who are at Warner at the time, they like get a shutter, they're like brings back awful memories and. Yeah. So I don't know exactly when it was kind of like when Gotham Knights ditched that. It was a couple of years into development where it was like, hey, this is no longer the plan. Like we're going to switch gears on this one. But that was a period of like big game as a service stuff. Which another thing, by the way, a lot of people have talked about how like in recent years, people like Zaslav and JB Perret are talking all about games as a service, but the games as a service mandate started long, long before that. And this is more executives just kind of like, like saying what shareholders want to hear. Because if you look at their current slate of games, they're not games as a Hogwarts 2 is not going to be like a game as a service. Like Batman from Our City is not going to be a game as a service. Wonder Woman wasn't going to be a game as a service. So the, the concerns. This is not a company that is like going all in on game as a service. They're going all in on those big franchises.

[Greg Miller]

But is that because they touch the stove, like they fuck around and find out kind of thing? Like they saw how the industry was going. They saw, I mean, with Suicide Squad, what happened?

[Jason Schreier]

No, I think they still believe that there's like room for success. Like I was talking to, I've talked to executives there who talk about how like the there, there may be a. Or there is like they can envision a world where like you are playing in Hogwarts with your friends and you go hang out with your buddies in Hogwarts and you're all wizards together and taking classes together and there's, there's like they have these kind of fantasies in their heads about games as a service that might work. It's just that these particular projects that are currently in development, I'm sure they have a game of service at some point somewhere, but those are not them. They're also focusing on mobile, by the way. They're doing a lot of stuff in mobile that they hope will hit in a way that some of their other mobile games did not.

[Andy Cortez]

I cannot imagine the amount of times Metaverse was thrown around at these, at any of these meetings, when you talk and you go with your friends to classes at Hogwarts, like that sounds like.

[Greg Miller]

For my 9:30 potions class.

[Andy Cortez]

Yeah, that sounds like such a, like directive of we also need to be in this sphere. That's so sad.

[Jason Schreier]

That's so funny. It's so funny. But it's also, I mean you could see that working, right? Like Hogwarts mmo. I remember there were Hogwarts like muds back in the day that were incredibly popular people role playing in the Hogwarts universe. It's, it's, it's an appealing proposition for a lot of people, I think.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah, I, that sounds really good. But then I also think about that could just be a Fortnite mode.

[Andy Cortez]

You know what I mean?

[Roger Pokorny]

I feel like that's the inevitable place where we're going to go. Like, have you heard anything about that? I know that James Gunn talked about, about how he wants to collaborate more with Fortnite in the future. Is that something that's on the table as maybe an alternative to what they're doing or what they were doing?

[Jason Schreier]

I don't know. I can't imagine it's a significant part of their revenue if it is.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah.

[Greg Miller]

So then for WB Montreal, obviously Gotham Knights doesn't do well. Where does that leave them?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, so they wound up in this kind of amorphous position. Sort of like what happened to Monolith that I was mentioning earlier, where it was kind of this back and forth of like meeting after meeting and them trying to pitch things and never really getting a no, but not getting a yes either, or it'd be like, yeah, we're really excited about this. So are you going to give us a budget or a timeline? No, just like keep working on that. Like keep doing what you're doing. Like those are the conversations that people would have, which I imagine was infuriating for a lot of people. Yeah. So WB Montreal after Gotham Knights, their original vision was like, hey, we know this isn't perfect, but we have all this tech, we have this team together, we have this chemistry. Why don't we do like a Miles morales style, like 1.5 Gotham Knights game that really just kind of like takes out that stuff and like makes it a lot better. And that was canceled after the performance of Gotham Knights. So that was, that was acts. Yeah. Sad. It's really sad because, like companies these days, maybe because budgets are so high, just don't give teams the opportunity to kind of learn from mistakes and make the kind of The, I don't know, the Mass Effect 2 or the Uncharted 2 or the Assassin's Creed to like the game that really builds on the foundation and makes something really great.

[Greg Miller]

Instead we keep reliving this cycle right where it's like all these former triple A devs leave the big company to go start their own thing and they bit off way bite off more than they can chew. They make a game that isn't is is maybe a seven and then yeah, they get closed, their funding gets taken away or absurd venture buys their entire studio. I don't know Andy, you keep raising your hand.

[Andy Cortez]

Well I, I wanted to bring up just the development of Gotham Knights and it kind of reminds me of like the story of Veil Guard where it was going to be a games as a service game and they had to sort of reinvent it and make it a single player rpg. Where were like when we talk that this game was going to be a games and service, are we talking Destiny style? And was there a whole lot of we have to reboot this project happening with Gotham Knights?

[Jason Schreier]

No Dragon Age. They had to reboot a lot of things and this they did not. Because if you look at the structure of this game, I mean it's already. When I say service, I mean the idea was like in Gotham Knights you would still be teaming up with your friends multiplayer. It would be the same sort of game. It's just like for the year after development or the years after development we would be releasing new boss packs and like stuff do. It was just kind of like an ongoing content plan. So it's not like they drastically changed the game as far as I know.

[Andy Cortez]

It sounds digitally powered to me. And then with that like the, the way Gotham Knights it's structured, it definitely is built to kind of have that. They just didn't do it. So that makes a lot of sense.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, exactly. And then so yeah. So after Gotham Knights so 1.5 was canceled, they wound up pitching a Constantine game before realizing after months of pitching that like Burbank was never going to yes to that and just kept dragging them along. They wound up, I think Burbank, the people in wb. When I say Burbank, that essentially means WB games corporate. I think they said like hey do, why don't you do something about the Flash or Joker? And they picked the Flash and wound up working on that. But then that didn't happen. There was a lot of. I think there was a belief from WB and Burbank that like WB Games Montreal had kind of. They couldn't be trusted to make new games after Gotham Knights was such a failure and that they should become a support studio. And while some of these pitches were going on, a lot of the people from Montreal got put on Wonder Woman and even some other games throughout the org. And so they essentially were turned into a support studio for wb. But Burbank didn't want to say that to the company. Like, they didn't want to say, like, hey, we're going to make you a support studio. So instead, they kept dangling, like, this idea that they could pitch something new. And I believe the current state of things is that they're pitching a new Game of Thrones game. So we'll see if that happens. Wins would be fun to see who's.

[Greg Miller]

Pitching the Superman game over there. Jason, what the hell?

[Jason Schreier]

I feel like there has never been a Superman game. Like, maybe ages ago, there was, like, a pitch deck of one, but I've never heard anything concrete about a Superman game actually happening there.

[Andy Cortez]

Why would you. He's kind of overrated.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah.

[Greg Miller]

All right, everybody.

[Andy Cortez]

He's also, like, almost impossible to design around, you know, because he's just way too overpowered. And we already played crack.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

Yeah.

[Andy Cortez]

And, like, you know, Superman 64, like, flying through rings, like, how can you top that?

[Jason Schreier]

I remember hearing that, like, Rocksteady was adamantly opposed and was like, we will never make a Superman. Like, we hate Superman.

[Andy Cortez]

What are we, idiots?

[Greg Miller]

Yeah.

[Roger Pokorny]

That's incredible.

[Greg Miller]

Fair enough. That's fair enough.

[Jason Schreier]

Okay, Greg, do you remember years ago, I think we were of the JW and, like, the rumors of. Oh, man, I'm gonna put you on the spot. I'm gonna blow up your spot here. Sorry in advance, but there were rumors about Superman floating around, them being tied to Rock Steady. And I ran into you, and I was like, hey, man, like, sorry, Rock Steady is not making Superman. And you were like, oh, I know. They're making Suicide Squad. I was like, wait a minute. You know more than you're letting on. Greg Miller. You're not. You're. You're keeping some insider info to your.

[Greg Miller]

Jason, I have so many secrets, I don't even tell you. No. You know how.

[Jason Schreier]

Could not tell me.

[Greg Miller]

This is why I'm always so quick when people like games journalist. I'm like, I'm not. I'm not. I'm somewhere in between pund in a critic and entertainer or whatever. Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

You know, you're a CEO.

[Greg Miller]

You know how much? Oh, yeah, I'm. I'm a dirt bag. CEO, Shareholders.

[Andy Cortez]

I got to satisfy the shareholders.

[Greg Miller]

So much of what kind of funny does is infotainment. I don't know what you want to call it. Right. But it is the idea that there's wrestling kayfabe all the time. So. Yeah. No, when I was wearing the Superman shirt shirt psyched at eth like I knew that Rocksteady was not making a Superman game. But I'm so the one thing you and I need to talk sometime privately like we did at Dice about like I have a multiple source. There was a Superman game in development in the past decade. Now I'm old, you know, I mean, I'm talking about like, I think I was at IGN when I originally heard this and I. From two different people that I have full trust and belief in, but I've never heard anyone talk about it.

[Jason Schreier]

Which studio?

[Greg Miller]

I can't say that. I don't want to say that publicly. I'll tell you.

[Jason Schreier]

I'll tell you.

[Greg Miller]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jason Schreier]

Greg, I think we have lunch. I think we have lunch plans at GDC we can discuss.

[Greg Miller]

Yeah, we do, but I had to move them because of this demo. I'll tell you later. We'll figure it out. I'll tell my wife what to tell you about the Superman game when you tell her what. Jason, I know we only have you for about 10 more minutes before you're hard out.

[Jason Schreier]

Yes.

[Greg Miller]

What else do you need to cover? What else do you need?

[Jason Schreier]

I have to get on a call with the person who I had to interrupt yesterday.

[Greg Miller]

Tell that. Tell them we appreciate their sacrifice. We appreciate them doing this for us. What do you. What else is there to say about WB games right now and where they're at?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, so. So Monolith is no more. Player first is no more. WB San Diego is no more. So they're definitely consolidating. I think it's. It's. I think they're man with the overall industry vibes. There's no sense of security of about anything or anyone. But. But I do think that like Rocksteady and WB Montreal and Avalanche, obviously some of these studios are in more secure places now as a result. Like, like the big. The. The big cut just happened. I can't imagine there will be more cuts in the next year or so, but again, you never know with the games industry. But like as of right now, it seems like this is their big drastic movement move. And now they're going to see what the fruits of like this new strategy look like over the next couple of years. So there are reasons to be bullish about like the remaining lineup. But it's just so tragic and so sad that like all these people who worked at Monolith, some of whom had been. Hadn't have now not shipped the game in eight years and will not ship one for who knows how much longer because of this. And it's just so sad and tragic that all of these people are just kind of like swallowed into this corporate like drama, like net net, like casualties of that. And yeah, it's just sad like having having the wrong people in charge or people in charge who like, don't make decisions or don't have a strong vision. It can just be so cataclysmic. And it's a hard job, man. It's like I was. I was having drinks with someone at Dice. He was like, have you ever thought about things from a publisher's perspective, from the perspective of someone who do ask, who has to go through the spreadsheet and make the job code cuts? And I was like, first of all, I'm a lot more sympathetic for the people who lose their jobs enough to worry about how to feed their families. But sure, I do. I do have a little bit of sympathy for that position. It's a tough position to be in, but that's why you're paid a million dollars a year to do it, is because you are trusted to run things in that role.

[Andy Cortez]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

And so having the wrong people in charge, having the wrong people in charge for a really long time can just be so cataclysmic in so many ways.

[Andy Cortez]

I know how tough it is because we, you know, Greg had to counterpick GTA 6 on fantasy critic League. You know what I mean? Tough decisions. Tough decisions out there.

[Jason Schreier]

That is tough. Especially because when it gets delayed, you're going to be like, damn.

[Greg Miller]

No, that's what I want.

[Jason Schreier]

I counterpick.

[Greg Miller]

I counterpicked it, so I don't want it. A better example is when Kevin comes over and he's like, hey, can we refill the kegerator? And I'm like, how much is it? I don't know if I want. Of course, Andy and Roger, you have computers. I'd love to get super Chats involved over here. C.J. splits on. Yeah, no, it's already gone. I can't see it. Oh, there it is. Bander S and I. Sorry I said anything about TT games. We didn't cover that. Jason, what's going on with TT games? Obviously I know Arthur Parsons and a whole bunch of them left. They went and made that funko game that was not great. And I don't. I don't hear anything about the LEGO franchise anymore from them.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, they actually are one of the few studios in the umbrella that has a game coming in the near future. They do have a LEGO game coming. I believe it's for next year. I could be misremembering. It's either later this year or next year. I think next year. But, yeah, there is a new LEGO game coming. I won't blow up their spot and say what it is, but, yes, there's a new LEGO game coming imminently. There's also, by the way, there's like that Harry Potter definitive edition with DLC thing that is coming as well. So there are a couple of things. There's also that Game of Thrones, like, weird mobile game that was announced in.

[Greg Miller]

The game that has, like, everybody in it. Yeah, we were all mentioning that. Casual, bizarre.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah.

[Andy Cortez]

Jesus. Jesus. Suddlesworth has a super chat asking about on this rumored Batman beyond game. Is it true? What can we get in the cards?

[Jason Schreier]

I haven't even heard that rumor. What is the rumor exactly?

[Andy Cortez]

PlayStation exclusive, Batman beyond game. Part of their strategy to stay afloat, PlayStation would have to drop a bag. That doesn't sound like a rumor.

[Jason Schreier]

That sounds like a rumor.

[Andy Cortez]

That sounds like people on Reddit really hard.

[Greg Miller]

Listen, Jesus, Know your place.

[Jason Schreier]

I mean, I. I know that. So I. I've said before, I reported a couple weeks ago, Rocksteady is making a Batman game, returning to their roots. I don't know exactly what it is I want.

[Greg Miller]

Pretty early days, I was gonna say. Did they know what it is yet at this point?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, it's still. It's like kind of. It's early. It's early days on that. But I. I worry a little bit about that because they're going to run into a similar problem that Monolith did where they've lost a lot of leadership. And so Sefton Hill and Jamie Seth, or Sefton Jamie. The. The two founders of Rockstar, Jamie Walker and Sefton Hill, the two founders of Rocksteady, left and formed a new studio called hundredstar. And they've recruited some of their former colleagues. So there was some talent train there, which, by the way, under Haddad's leadership, like, we saw the directors of Monolith leave. Founders of Rocksteady leave. A bunch of leadership in Montreal leave. Like, a lot of attrition at the level of people who had to work.

[Greg Miller]

Ringing endorsements. Endorsements of what the plan was over there.

[Andy Cortez]

I know it's very early on Jason and any of the. The James Gunn sort of, you know, conversations that we mentioned yesterday. What do you know? Do you have any information as to how James Gunn would try to be involved in any WB games development and any of what is happening with Rocksteady.

[Roger Pokorny]

Or is he even involved? Because, like, yeah, because, like, when he was talking about stuff, it seemed like he was just kind of on the outset, like, they'll be like, oh, would you want to do a Marvel Rivals thing? He's like, yeah, maybe, like, it didn't seem like he was that involved with the whole process.

[Jason Schreier]

Process. I think that was. Well, I don't know. I mean, I get the feeling that that's more about the headlines and the stories than it is what's actually happening on the ground. But I don't know. It would be happening with very narrow group of people. So it's possibly just hasn't trickled down to me, but I imagine it's more like GUN coming in and being like, hey, like, story people. Like, here's what we're doing. Let's make sure that this is all canon or whatever, and let's make sure this all kind of syncs together. Together. But this idea, this. It's always been a kind of flight of fancy to be like, we're gonna have the DC verse and they're all gonna be connected, the movies and the games, and that's never gonna happen. The timelines are all just, like, completely, completely different.

[Greg Miller]

But if they introduce the multiverse, then it works. And it's just that, you know. Yeah, exactly.

[Jason Schreier]

That's what you need, man.

[Andy Cortez]

We need more multiverse.

[Jason Schreier]

Everything in Fortnite.

[Greg Miller]

Exactly.

[Andy Cortez]

Oh, gosh. Do you have any. Anything to talk about regarding the Nemesis System?

[Jason Schreier]

Oh, yeah, I always have something to talk about. What do you mean? Regarding the note, like, the future plans, patent.

[Andy Cortez]

I know. You know, we've seen many people report that the NEB system is patented until 2030.

[Greg Miller]

Say it's coming up right in. In our next show, Games Daily.

[Andy Cortez]

Right.

[Greg Miller]

That's a new story about the year when it expires.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think that stuff is overblown because, like, I don't know, a lot of that is tech, and you're not going to recreate it somewhere else. But also, like, I don't really think many game developers are out there being like, we want to copy exactly what the Nemesis System does. Like, a lot of people have been playing around with procedural storytelling in different ways, but, like, with or without a Patent. I can't imagine a ton of AAA studios being like, we are going to make this exact same thing and if they do something different that maybe like experiments with similar ideas but feels different, then it wouldn't violate the pattern patent. So I don't know. I, I, I think that has been, that story has been pretty overblown. Is my gut a weird thing to.

[Greg Miller]

Patent a video game?

[Andy Cortez]

It really is.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, it is. But man, if we have more time, I would go on and on about the patent trolling that led to the creation of essentially led to Bobby Kotick taking over Activision. Actually. Go read Play Nice.

[Greg Miller]

I do know this from Playing Nice, of course.

[Andy Cortez]

I read it with my ears.

[Greg Miller]

Oh, wow.

[Jason Schreier]

Me too. Too.

[Andy Cortez]

Very good.

[Jason Schreier]

As one does. As one does. Yeah. Patent trolling was. Ralph Bayer, who was the creator of the Magnavox Odyssey, was like a notorious patent troll and won all these patent lawsuits for like patenting sports games essentially. It was, it's a pretty crazy part of video game history.

[Greg Miller]

There it is. Playing Ice the Ride, Fallen Future of Blizzard Entertainment. Jason's latest book. Amazing read.

[Andy Cortez]

I also told Jason that I signed up for like my third Bloomberg subscription.

[Greg Miller]

Oh, nice.

[Andy Cortez]

Because I was like, I was just like, no, no, no. I, I have like two other running ones. I still think I gotta look at Rocket Money to tell me how to like, which one to cancel. But yeah, I had to sign up for a third one yesterday. I had to get that.

[Jason Schreier]

Can I just say, you don't. I tweet gift links to all of my articles on Blue Sky. Not on, I said tweet, but like, I don't use Twitter anymore. Blue Skies. I post gift links. All my articles. You can just read them for free there. You don't have to subscribe if you don't want to subscribe to Bloomberg, but I appreciate it, Andy.

[Andy Cortez]

Yeah, well, you're the go, Jason.

[Jason Schreier]

Tell my bosses that I got three subscriptions from one person.

[Andy Cortez]

Of course. Well, Jason, that's going to do it for us here. Thank you so much for all of your time and all of your patience with us. Sorry it took so long to get to your portion of it. We had to talk about, you know, some Michael Jackson songs.

[Greg Miller]

It's very weird and I, I don't want you to leave empty handed, Jason. I know you're always looking for scoops. You're looking for threads to tug on. All right? I don't know if you've heard about Stars in the Bank. All right, now we have a very successful game show here called Kind of funny game showdown. And I do have stars in the bank. The bank which will allow me to steal three stars from Tim. It's a developing storyline. I haven't seen Bloomberg cover it, you know, so I'm just putting it out there. Vgc. VGC is always knocking on my door. Jordan Midler always trying to get an interview. I'm like, I'm a Jason man. Midler, get out of here.

[Andy Cortez]

Just something you think about Jason, you can ignore.

[Jason Schreier]

Send me the tip. Send the tip to [e-mail] Got it. And we'll check it it out.

[Andy Cortez]

Thank you, Jason Shrier.

[Roger Pokorny]

Thank you.

[Andy Cortez]

This has been the kind of funny games cast it has been for February 26, 2025. We appreciate all of you all. We will see you on Games Daily after this.