Metaphor: ReFantazio Spoilercast - Kinda Funny Gamescast

Summary

Kinda Funny Gamescast: Video Game Podcast
Episode: Metaphor: ReFantazio Spoilercast
Release Date: November 26, 2024
Hosts: Barrett Courtney, Blessing Adeoye Jr., Michael P. Hyam

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Introduction

In the Metaphor: ReFantazio Spoilercast episode, Kinda Funny’s Barrett Courtney, Blessing Adeoye Jr., and Michael P. Hyam delve deep into the sprawling 80- to 100-hour JRPG, Metaphor: ReFantazio. Released recently and nominated for Game of the Year at the Game Awards, this episode serves as an extensive spoiler cast, unpacking the game’s intricate plot, profound themes, and engaging gameplay mechanics.

Comprehensive Plot Overview

Barrett begins by outlining the core narrative of Metaphor: ReFantazio ([05:12]). The game centers on the protagonist, an Elden boy, embarking on a mission to infiltrate the royal army to either kill Luis—who killed King Ukronia—or reverse a curse placed on the believed-to-be-comatose prince. Assisted initially by the fairy Gallica, the protagonist’s journey evolves into a quest filled with political intrigue, alliances, and shocking revelations.

Key plot twists include:

• Royal Election System: The deceased king established a magical election system where the next king is chosen based on public trust ([06:00]).

• Diverse Party Members: The protagonist builds a team from various races and backgrounds, including characters like Stroll, Hulkenberg, Heisme, Lady Juna, Yufa, and Basilio ([06:50]).

• Antagonist Revelation: It is unveiled that Luis is secretly an Elda, plotting the kingdom’s destruction due to historical complacency toward his people ([08:20]).

• Final Twist: The most significant twist reveals that the protagonist is not merely a childhood friend of the prince but is, in fact, the prince himself. Through ancient magic, the prince's consciousness resides within an idealized heroic avatar, allowing him to live out his heroic fantasies ([11:55]).

The journey culminates in a heartfelt showdown with Luis, utilizing the power of friendship to claim the throne legitimately. The epilogue, set a year later, showcases a materialistic yet hopeful king dedicated to addressing his people's needs, emphasizing ongoing efforts toward utopia ([20:57]).

Exploration of Themes

Political and Social Commentary

Michael P. Hyam ([18:20]) emphasizes the game’s bold exploration of themes like racism, classism, and the dynamics of power. The narrative critically examines how public opinion is volatile and how authoritarian leaders like Luis exploit societal anxieties to maintain power. This reflection mirrors real-world political climates, making the game’s message resonate deeply with players.

• Public Opinion: The protagonist’s fluctuating popularity rank showcases the fickle nature of public trust, drawing parallels to Persona 5’s Phantom Thieves ([19:43]).

• Anxiety and Power: The game posits that anxiety fuels magical abilities (Magla) and that Luis manipulates this anxiety for his own ends, highlighting how fear can be exploited for control ([31:12]).

The Power of Fiction

Barrett and Michael ([35:02]) discuss how Metaphor: ReFantazio underscores the transformative power of fiction. The game narrates how stories inspire real-world action, encouraging players to embody the ideals presented within the game. This meta-narrative suggests that engagement with fiction can lead to meaningful societal contributions.

Character Analysis and Social Links

Complex Characters and Bonds

The hosts laud the game’s character development, drawing strong comparisons to the Persona series’ social links.

• Basilio: Praised as a standout character, Basilio’s emotional journey, especially his awakening post-confidant Dell’s death, is highlighted as one of the game’s most poignant moments ([67:07]).

• Heisme: His storyline delves into the struggles of maintaining equality and the nuances of affirmative action, delivering clear messages without subtext ([34:24]).

• Maria: As a social link, Maria’s narrative advocates for acceptance and support for those who are different, reinforcing the game’s themes of diversity and understanding ([74:07]).

Comparison to Persona’s Romance System

Barrett and Michael ([80:15]) discuss the absence of a traditional romance system in Metaphor: ReFantazio, contrasting it with the Persona series. They agree that omitting romance allows for a more focused and streamlined narrative, preventing the dilution of the game’s central themes. Instead, the game employs a follower system where each bond reinforces specific societal messages, enhancing character-driven storytelling without the distractions of romance options.

Gameplay Mechanics and Dungeon Design

Challenging Boss Fights

The episode covers the game’s demanding boss battles, particularly the final showdown against the protagonist’s shadow self. Blessing Adeoye Jr. ([12:28]) describes the battle as a test of strategy, emphasizing the necessity to disable reflective items to defeat the opponent effectively ([16:38]).

Dungeon Design Influences

The hosts note that Metaphor: ReFantazio draws inspiration from Etrian Odyssey, evident in its dungeon layouts and enemy patterns ([59:01]). However, they also critique certain dungeons for being overly lengthy and less innovative compared to the rest of the game’s strengths.

• Mage Academy Dungeon: Mentioned as a part of the game that felt rushed, the Mage Academy’s dungeon was critiqued for overwhelming players with plot while lacking engaging gameplay mechanics ([87:00]).

Follower System

Unlike the Arcana-based social links in Persona, Metaphor: ReFantazio utilizes a follower system where each character bond serves to deepen the player’s understanding of the game’s political and social themes ([75:27]). This approach is praised for being purposeful and enhancing the narrative without unnecessary complexity.

Personal Reflections and Impact

Michael ([89:19]) shares a heartfelt account of how Metaphor: ReFantazio provided solace during a tumultuous year, paralleling his experiences with how Persona 5 helped him navigate personal challenges. He emphasizes the game’s ability to inspire real-world action and personal growth through its storytelling ([91:36]).

Barrett adds that the game’s epilogue reinforces the message that positive change is an ongoing process, resonating with the idea that defeating a tyrant doesn’t instantly resolve all societal issues ([20:50]).

Community Q&A Highlights

The hosts address several audience questions, including:

• Favorite Bonds: Barrett expresses a deep appreciation for Basilio, highlighting his emotional storyline and character development ([67:07]). Blessing appreciates characters like Alonzo for their complexity and moral ambiguity ([69:05]).

• Relationship Dynamics: They discuss the game’s implied relationships, particularly between the protagonist and UFA, favoring the natural and understated portrayal over forced romance systems prevalent in other JRPGs ([81:11]).

• Desire for "Royal" Version: Viewers expressed interest in a "Royal" version of the game for enhanced social links, but the hosts agree that the current version effectively balances narrative depth without additional romantic elements ([85:25]).

Conclusion

The Metaphor: ReFantazio Spoilercast concludes with the hosts reflecting on the game’s profound impact, celebrating its ability to intertwine deep political commentary with engaging storytelling and character development. They commend Metaphor: ReFantazio for its bold narrative choices and its capacity to inspire players to envision and enact positive change in their own lives.

Metaphor: ReFantazio stands out as a testament to how video games can transcend entertainment, serving as powerful mediums for storytelling and social commentary. The episode encapsulates the hosts’ admiration for the game’s craftsmanship and its meaningful messages, making it a must-play for enthusiasts seeking both compelling narrative and thoughtful themes.

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Notable Quotes

• Barrett Courtney ([20:50]): "You don't just beat the big bad and then it all magically goes, goes away. There's still structures and systems in place that are still kind of keeping people down to a certain extent and working against people while working for others."

• Blessing Adeoye Jr. ([31:12]): "The thing that really stuck with me was how the game views how, how fickle public opinion is because... your ranking, your popularity ranking as you do more and more stuff in this game."

• Michael P. Hyam ([24:05]): "This game is not interested in subtext. And it's for cowards. Yeah. Subtext is for cowards."

• Michael P. Hyam ([89:19]): "Finishing metaphor was one of the first moments in recent days where I felt like this weight, I felt like a weight off of me."

Final Thoughts

For gamers who haven't yet experienced Metaphor: ReFantazio, this spoiler cast offers a comprehensive glimpse into its rich narrative and thematic depth. The hosts’ passionate discussions illuminate why the game is garnering critical acclaim, making it a compelling addition to any JRPG enthusiast’s collection.

Transcript

[Barrett Courtney]

This episode is brought to you by Skinny Pop Popcorn. Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Oh, so light and crunchy. Skinny Pop original Popcorn is the snack you've been searching for. Made with just three simple popcorn kernels, sunflower oil and salt. Snacking never felt or tasted so good. Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Give yourself permission to snack and pick up Skinny Pop original popcorn today. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another Kind of Funny Games. Cast your home for all the big reviews, previews and topics of discussion in video games right here at Kind of Funny, where today we will be spoiling metaphor refantasio. My name is Barrett Courtney. I'm one of your hosts today. And today I think we've put together the crew that I think makes the most sense for a metaphor spoiler cast. First up, we've got the man many would consider to be the blue haired protagonist for Kind of Funny it is Blessing. Adio, Junior.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

What's up? I never thought about myself as the blue haired protagonist.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, I, like, I was coming up with fun intros yesterday, and that was pretty much the inspiration that I got yesterday when I texted you like, hey, I would love. I would love to host and, like, do intros. Because I was thinking of fun intros. I was like, what could I introduce Blessing as? And I was thinking, you know what, he. He brings a little bit of that MC energy.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I appreciate that.

[Barrett Courtney]

There are times where you're like, can I get a blankie at this function? And that is definitely like NPC energy. But I would say as like a host for Kind of Funny, I'm like, he brings a certain mc.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I'll be the MC with it with a hint of Teddy.

[Barrett Courtney]

Okay. Okay.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Just got to keep him guessing, you.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Know, I don't think you want to say that about yourself.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. Next up, we're. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Uh, next up, we got the man who brings a certain energy to the podcast. The same kind of energy I would imagine one Basilio Magnus would bring to a podcast. It is my boy, Michael P. Hyam.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Hi. Oh, that is a very high compliment because I will get into why that that means so much to me.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, Basilio is the fucking dude. And we'll get all into it. He was a character. Michael, you joined us for the review. There's a character that I wanted to talk about. We couldn't, but we couldn't because, you know, we were given specific things that we were allowed to talk about.

[Michael P. Hyam]

People hadn't played it.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. So, yeah, I was thinking, I was like, he brings. He brings some of that, like, the boy who's about to, like, bring, like, bring the heat in the function, you know, kind of thing. But also, I was thinking of, like, what kind of podcast would Basilio like, be on? And I immediately. I was like, he'd be on a cooking show, and he. He would talk about, like, fun recipes that he has learned throughout his journeys that would quickly devolve into. But then, yeah, we went to this bar and we beat the shit out of this one guy.

[Michael P. Hyam]

We got Henny shots, yo. I would love to take shots of Henny with Basilio.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That would.

[Michael P. Hyam]

That would be a fucking party.

[Barrett Courtney]

That would be a party. And we put this out publicly who the cast was. So you might be wondering, we originally had a fourth chair, and our fourth chair, who is supposed to join us today, is a man that I think most of us would consider to be the father of all Atlas knowledge in our friend circles. And we often look to him for his fatherly guidance. Just like the Metaphor party looks to one Heisme Andrew Goldfarb texted me this morning saying that he was feeling under the weather. So unfortunately, he could not join us today, which I'm really bummed about. I know he's really bummed about because when I hit him up to join us for this spoiler cast, he was really excited. So I know he's probably feeling it. So send him some sweet, nasty love wherever you follow.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It's like when you go to your followers list on Metaphor and you want to hang out with that specific person and, like, there's unavailable.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, you know, exactly. Or it's like, hey, I'm ready to hang out. But, like, on the next trip, like, when we're back on the gauntlet run, we can hang out. Yeah. And I was thinking. I was like, okay, I've come up with all of these, you know, fun intros for everybody. Blesses the MC Haim is Basilio. Goldfarb is Heisman. I was like, damn, who would I be in this? In this? And I immediately. I quickly came up with an answer. I wonder what y'all think.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

What's funny is I would have gone Heisme.

[Barrett Courtney]

Oh, interesting. Okay.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Do you have to be a party member or do you. Can you be, like, a follower?

[Barrett Courtney]

I could be anybody. I could be anybody.

[Michael P. Hyam]

You could be stupid Sexy stroll if you want to.

[Barrett Courtney]

You know, that wasn't who I thought of. That is someone who I thought of.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Stroller is sexy. See, now I'm blanking on party members, right? Because I. Because I don't view. I don't view you as you.

[Barrett Courtney]

I will give you. I will give you one hint. It was not a party member. Oh, yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Is there a Maria's mother or caretaker?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Would you ever fake your death?

[Barrett Courtney]

Would I ever fake my death?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah, if you ever got into, like, wild debt. Now I'm thinking about it. I might want to do that.

[Barrett Courtney]

Oh, yeah, I know who you're talking about. I'm blanking on his name right now. But no, that was not the person I was thinking of. I took it, took a beat and I was like, fuck, I'm Dell. I'm. I'm this little piece of shit.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That's all I'm gonna say.

[Barrett Courtney]

Fucking angry.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That's. Doesn't trust people.

[Barrett Courtney]

But very, very, very, very, very deep down, I do have a soft spot and I do have a soft spot for the people who fucking show up and are the homies. So.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Hell yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. So, ladies, gentlemen, enbies, we're about to spoil Metaphor Refantasio. So if you're not finished the game, you might want to click off, bookmark this video and come back to it when you're ready. That's why we do spoiler cast. You know, it's here for whenever you're ready for it, but we thought it would be fitting to kind of do it around this time. Metaphor just got nominated for Game of the Year at the Game Awards. It's also been about a month and a half since the game's been out, so I feel like people are starting.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

To finish it now.

[Barrett Courtney]

People are starting to trickle in onto the other side. Uh, but remember, this is the Kind of Funny Games cast. Each and every weekday we get together to talk about the biggest reviews, previews and topics in video games live on YouTube, Twitch and podcast services around the globe. If you love what we do, please support us with the Kind of Funny membership on Patreon or YouTube to get all of our shows ad free, watch us record them live and get a daily exclusive show known as Greg Way. A little bit of housekeeping for you. It's Thanksgiving week in the United States, so Kind of Funny is having a super short week of content. Look forward to your regularly scheduled shows. Today is the last day that we're doing anything. This week. We're out for the rest of the week starting tomorrow. And remember, we're an 11 person business. All about live talk shows. You already got Kind of Funny Games Daily, which was all about Mike Minati being cast as the lead in the live action Netflix adaptation of Ridge Racer. I made that up because no, we're not recording this live. I had to make up a kind of Funny game.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I was. I thought I was tripping. I was like, I prepped kind of funny games daily. I don't remember this happening.

[Barrett Courtney]

We are pre recording this mainly because both Roger and Kevin are out this week and so I didn't want to put the stress of on on anybody who is running the show shout out to cool Greg who's running the show right now of making sure all of the live stuff was going on. So we are pre recording this and then streaming it live for everybody for Twitch to watch it live and all that good stuff. But then after Kind of Funny Games cast, you will get the kind of funny podcast Thanksgiving Edition being streamed for everybody that'll be taking place of our normally scheduled gameplay stream. That's how we're going to end the week with a fun little Thanksgiving hang for a live kind of Funny podcast.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That is an interesting cast because right now I'm looking at the calendar. It is just Mike, bless Nick and Joey or we're Tim and Greg or Greg's not here. Tim's working from home.

[Michael P. Hyam]

They got families.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, they got families.

[Barrett Courtney]

They got families.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Everybody who doesn't have a family.

[Barrett Courtney]

So it's pretty much just like everybody. Everybody left.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Everybody left. I'm going to pitch.

[Barrett Courtney]

So that's going to be at the. That's going to be here at the table.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I don't know if we've done this before on Kind of Funny podcasts, but I want to do a Thanksgiving food draft.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Oh, I don't know.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

But like, that sounds like something we've probably done before.

[Barrett Courtney]

I don't know if it is. I'm sure there's been a conversation of like one of the best Thanksgiving food being at the very bottom. You know, we can get into that another day. If you're a Kind of Funny member, you can get today's Greg Way. Who's doing it today? I have no idea. Maybe it's Greg, maybe it's someone else, but you'll have to wait and see. Thank you to our Patreon producers Carl Jacobs and Delaney Twining. Today we're brought to you by Shady Rays and Aura Frames, but we'll tell you about that later. For now, let's get into topic of the show. It's time to finally spoil Metaphor refantazio to kind of kick it off. Usually when I'm a part of a spoiler cast, I like to write my own kind of big bullet point recap of like the overall plot and this is the first time I've ever tried to do that for an 80 to 100 hour JRPG. It's tough, huh? And so I, I, I thought it'd be useful for some of us, especially Michael and I here at the table where it's been like and a half since we've finished metaphor. And maybe for some of you all out there, that also burned through it very quickly when it first came out. I'm sure some of y'all who have like recently beat it. You're gonna be like, ah, we don't need this. But you know, just to kind of spark up some some thoughts and ideas, I thought it would be good to kind of get an overall synopsis breakdown of metaphor Refantasio the King of Ukronia has been killed by Luis, which leaves an empty throne for the kingdom for someone to take over. You are the protagonist, an Elden boy who is constantly judged by his race on a mission to infiltrate the royal army and either kill Luis or find the spell he allegedly put on the believed to be killed prince who is in a coma and can only awake if the caster for his curse is either killed or the curse itself is reversed through magic. You start off this quest aided by the fairy Gallica during a failed assassination attempt on Luis, which ends with your confidant Grus being killed. It's revealed that the late king used his royal magic to hold an election for the next king in case of his untimely death, where whoever holds the most trust from the people of the kingdom shall be crowned as the next king. You decide to enter into the election to find another opportunity to get close to Louise and reverse the prince's curse, but eventually decide to run in the prince's stead. Along the way, you build a loyal team who believe in your quests, who all come from different races and backgrounds. Stroll a nobleman's son, Hulkenberg, a former kingsguard Heisme, a Euge who was formerly a part of the royal Shadow guard Lady Juna, a music idol Yufa, the younger sister of the Mustari chief and Basilio, a parapist who was a part of Luis's inner circle. On your election quest, you go through trials to make a name for yourself and win over the hearts and minds of the kingdom's people. During all of this, it's revealed that the attempted assassination of the prince was not led by Luis, but in fact Sanctifax Forden, the head of the Sanctus Church who was making a play for more power over the kingdom. The Elden tribe Who you are one of the very few left of are descendants of humans, which people only know today as grotesque monsters, and that Luis is secretly an Elda himself who is plotting the destruction of the kingdom in retaliation for the kingdom's complacency for the conditions of its people. The biggest twist in the game, however, is that you are not actually the childhood friend of the prince, but in fact the prince himself. And through the magic of your mother's tribe, your consciousness, a part of your consciousness was put inside the prince's ideal form of a typical hero. And therefore the prince got to actually live the hero's journey he had always dreamed of. Through this major revelation, you have a final showdown with Louise, who came from the same village the prince eventually took refuge in. You defeat Luis with the power of friendship and take your place as the true rightful heir to the throne. There's also an epilogue that takes place a year later where it's shown that you are very much a materialist king who understands that the need of the people is the only way to build towards anything close to a utopia. The end.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Can I take beef with only one part of this recap? The part where you say you defeat Luis with the power of friendship. I didn't play 100 hours of this video game to get the. To have the power of friendship. Get the credit.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, okay.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I grinded.

[Barrett Courtney]

You did.

[Michael P. Hyam]

You did.

[Barrett Courtney]

And we'll talk about that grind and like some of the specific end game stuff that you did that I didn't do. Because I wanted. Yeah, because I wanted to talk to you about this because I wanted to beat the game for review. Embargo, and there's some endgame, you know? You know, I can talk about it now. Yeah, we're just getting full on into it.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

There's like a last string of side quests. Yes.

[Barrett Courtney]

It's also about the trials of the dragon or something like that.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

So you have to go to the three towers that you've visited throughout the game, you return to them, and then in each of the tower, there is a dragon that you fight. And again, this is like the inside content we're getting.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

So we're getting into it. We're talking about.

[Barrett Courtney]

And so the only thing I've known is that I started all three of those different fights. And I was like, man, I do not have the sauce to do this right now and try to also beat the game. So my only understanding. Understanding of it right now is kind of like meeting that fairy at the very beginning of this quest who's like, hey, I'm another fairy. You're trying to fight these dragons. Good luck. And so what happens through that?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, so like, I mean, the fairy is kind of there just to kind of usher you through. Like, there's nothing, there's any big reveal, particularly about that fairy.

[Barrett Courtney]

Okay.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

But like, you fight the dragons. The fights are brutal. Right. Like, they're the most difficult fights in the game, aside from maybe the last.

[Barrett Courtney]

Fight, depending on who is this tough fight as well.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah. And that fight can get tougher depending on how you tackle, like the last quest.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

But yeah, you fight the dragons and then after you defeat all three dragons, you then get a last fight. Like a fourth thing to do. Right. That is located Michael, you can correct me if I'm wrong. Is that like the dungeon where you like, meet Yufa?

[Barrett Courtney]

Right.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Does it go back to the, to the temple?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I think it goes back to that temple. I forget if you did you all.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I don't think I beat the dragons, but I saw somebody else do the fight, the fourth fight that you get. And I was like, yeah, for me, yeah, I was still playing it for reviews. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to be dragon fights at least. And then I'll see what, what's next. And then I probably can't do it. I was like, yeah, I can't do this. So I do have to, I did have to finish the game, but I saw someone else do it. And it's pretty nuts how you're supposed to figure that out.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

You go back to that original temple. You go back to like the very end of it, and you go into a room that is overflowing with Magla. Right. I think it's like with, I don't know if it's called Dark Mag, but it's like when you see a boss door, usually you can see out of it. There's like a lot of that mag coming out of this door. You go in and essentially. Oh, man, I wish I, I, I didn't even think to like, go back and revisit this part to like, you know, talk about this accurately, but you basically get into a boss fight with an evil version of yourself.

[Barrett Courtney]

What the, that Barrett? No, because I didn't, I didn't complete this quest. And so, like, it's part of the reason why I do want to start a new game plus run is because of, like, being able to experiment with like the kind of archetype layouts and stuff more. I feel like the, a second going after those dragons. I feel like I'd have a bit more of the sauce to actually, like, beat them and stuff. So, Yeah, I did not know that that's where that ended. Because when you texted me of like, oh, shit, there's a fourth final thing, I was like, oh, probably another dragon.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Which I. Which is what I thought I was like when I texted, I was like, oh, man. Okay, there's a fourth dragon shadow self. Yeah. Then I get there, and you fight your shadow self. And when I tell you, oh, wait, I have the video. How do I get the video? Oh, you know what? This is one of those ones where I save the video on my home PS5.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

And it was in the cloud for, like, two weeks. And so I don't have access to it anymore.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Okay.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It's at home, so. But I don't have access to it for this episode.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right here you figure out how to beat that. How to beat your shadow self.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yes.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Okay.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

So this is the crazy thing. It's crazy is that you start off right, you go first, obviously, you do your turn, and then when your shadow self goes, he immediately, one shot, kills everybody, like, every single time.

[Barrett Courtney]

And that feels typical for kind of like a Persona where you do, like, the secret, like, Elizabeth fight or the twins or something like that.

[Michael P. Hyam]

There's a gimp.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

So the gimmick behind it is that you know how during the dragon fights, or maybe you don't, because again, during the dragon fights, you'll kind of learn to use a lot of the reflecting stuff, because reflecting, like, will get rid of all the turn icons and for the enemy. And then you can go. Right. So that's kind of like the cheat code, slash, strategy around it is to have reflective stuff. And so naturally going into that fight, you're going to have a bunch of reflective stuff on, because you also are winning these or earning these reflective items from the dragons that you beat. Mainly, like, reflective to fire. But you go into that fight, he one kills you each time. And I had to look this up online. You have to basically take off any reflective items that you have in order to fight.

[Michael P. Hyam]

You gotta raw dog it.

[Barrett Courtney]

You gotta raw dog it.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah. Okay. And then it turns into more of a fair, quote unquote fight. You're getting your ass whooped because guess what? You don't have any reflective items. But also the cool thing about this fight is because you're fighting another version, the evil version of the main character. Basically, he is switching archetypes in real time. And so, like, every few turns, he's like, all right, busting out this archetype, and now his moves are completely different and his weaknesses are completely different. So it's a really cool fight. You kind of have to be on it, though.

[Barrett Courtney]

I know it's been a bit. But, like, what is the, like, story behind. I'm trying to look at fighting yourself.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Because I'm pretty sure it's like a version that is made just purely of Maglev, but I'm trying to figure out, like, I'm going to look it up.

[Barrett Courtney]

Maybe like a version made with Magala without, like, the princess, like, kind of consciousness in it or something.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Like.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Something like that.

[Barrett Courtney]

Huh. Huh?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah, I think. I think it's dope that Metaphor has a seat. I mean, they all kind of have, like, a secret final boss, but it felt very Final Fantasy to me where like, like Ultima Weapon and like Final Fantasy 7 or some.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Where it's like, oh, you defeat the other. Like, you don't have to in the main story. It's like, oh, but you can. You can fight these other weapons over these other dragons and then get that. Get that final fight. That is ridiculously hard. So I didn't complete myself because I was like, yeah, I need to. I need to finish this game.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

At some point.

[Barrett Courtney]

I understand it.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It's a. In concept. It is. It is really cool to see Metaphor do something like that.

[Barrett Courtney]

Oh, yeah. So I'm glad that we talked about that. I'm glad that that's where we started. From here on out, we're kind of going to go a little bit free flow because I feel like there is so much to talk about for this game. So I want to talk. I want to start off with, like, what we want to talk about the most. And Michael, I want to start with you. Like, what from this game do you want to, like, really get into the nitty gritty of first?

[Michael P. Hyam]

I guess we can start quite broadly. I mean, I do want to talk specific specifics about characters, but I think more broadly the message of the game.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yes.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Because that was the one thing that, going into this that I was most paying attention to, because I trust Atlas to tell a deep story with the sort of. With the chops that they bring to tell stories through, like, P3, P4 to a certain extent and P5.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And even Catherine in some regard. Right. So. But you go into this and they're tackling political topics like racism, classism, and, you know, what you do with power and how people exploit power and how that manifests throughout the world. But I think the one Thing that I've thought a lot about was, of course they say all the right things about classism and racism and things like that. And it's like, okay, cool, they get it, you know, I sure hope they did. Yeah. Before they go into this, I was like, I sure hope they do. And they, they did. But the thing that really stuck with me afterwards and will, over time is how this game views how, how, how fickle public opinion is because. And that was a part of P5 as well. Right. With the, the Phantom thieves approval rating. It kind of manifests here with your ranking, your popularity ranking as you do more and more stuff in this game. And it does the thing of like, like, oh, you have this fall from grace.

[Barrett Courtney]

And then, yeah, it goes full attack on Titan mode where Luis turns you into a, turns, Turns you into a human. Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

That was like a big turning point. I was shocked by that moment too, because, like, I knew going into this we had like our, our secret, our secret envelope. We had like, predictions about what this game is going to say. One of mine was Elda are actually descendants of humans. I mean, it turns out that, like, everyone is a descendant of humans.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. But they're the most closely tied. Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And then so when that happened, like, I fucking knew it. But it's not that, like, oh my God, it's this big plot twist. It's like how they use that plot twist against you or to kind of change your perception of the story. It's like, okay, well, now that you are known to be descendants of humans, what do you do from there? And that's when you go through the village and kind of get that big lore drop about the truth behind this world and where you come from and who you are, who you are. And then so, but through that, like, your popularity rank drops and then you have to like, kind of rebuild yourself and then you end up fighting Luis. But even when you do finish the game and people are kind of have your backing and all that and you know, the, the message is like, you got to keep working for this. Like, you don't just solve a problem and then, cool. The world is nice. It's all.

[Barrett Courtney]

Well, I, I, I adore that. The epilogue is a year later.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

And. And seeing the work still being done specifically like, by you.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right. Yeah. And I think that that sends the right message. And I think that's, that is the truth of the matter is that, you know, the work doesn't stop at a certain point.

[Barrett Courtney]

You get, you don't just, you just beat the big bad and then it all magically goes, goes away. There's still structures and systems in place that are still kind of keeping people down to a certain extent and working against people while working for others. And yeah, it really hit me like getting that like year later and seeing you incognito, like talking to this like a random dude in a bar and just like listen, like truly just listening to the needs and the, the problems of the people and maybe kind of recognizing of like, oh, that's, that might be a little bit of a misguided hatred of like what you're talking about. But like, why, like, why do you start to think that way? And like, what do we need to do to help people to not, you know, harbor certain feelings towards others? Right.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. And I. The thing too is there comes a certain point where Luis just like goes mask off full on in public, mask off, you know, that he's a tyrant. You know, he's, you know, wants to destroy the world or like his various motivations become very clear to everyone, but he still has the backing of the people. And I'm like, yeah, that kind of, that does happen. Saw it happen in our real world in real time multiple times.

[Barrett Courtney]

But I was told several times that there is no connection between this game and real world politics. Absolutely not at all.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Couldn't, couldn't, couldn't be them. But, but I think as if I had played this game in maybe 2010, or if I was a teenager and played this game like, oh, fantasy world, all this stuff is far fetched, that would never happen. Right? But our context is very different now as adults who have seen our world change in some very drastic ways that we once thought impossible. Right. And then so the way that story, those concepts manifest in metaphor are very, they feel very real. Like Louise still has popular backing. People do want, are. Are swayed by tyrants who exert power. And in some regard, one of the messages of the game is like, you know, sometimes people want authoritarian governments. They want to be told what to do. They want to be fed into this power structure where they feel superior. They are part of the people in power against others and that's right below them. And like that feeds into like these inner desires of people. And like that is one of the consistent messages through the game we were talking about.

[Barrett Courtney]

And like, when we were in the middle of playing it, like, to me, so much of this game felt like a kind of react the leads of this game kind of looking back and having a postmortem on Persona 5 because a lot of Persona 5 is those same themes as well. And I think a lot of the major themes of Persona 5 and what they were trying to get at in Persona 5 gets kind of lost in all of the other stories being told throughout that game. I feel like this time around they're like, all right, we need to have this, like, heart on our fucking. Our heart on our sleeves. Like, it's not subtext, it is the text. And, like, to really drill into the brains of people. Like, this is what we're trying to fucking talk about.

[Michael P. Hyam]

That is. That is one of my lines in my review is like, this game is not interested in subtext.

[Barrett Courtney]

No. Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And it's for cowards. Yeah. Yeah. Subtext is for cowards. And I think some people will look at this and think, oh, like, it's very on the nose and it's. And all that. And yes, it is. And maybe that's to its detriment, but I. I think it can be to its benefit because there's. You don't have to make any guesses about what this game is about. Like, there's no, like, oh, my God, this game is trying to be woke. Whatever. No, they are telling you what this game is about, and they're telling you what their message is up front without any implications. Any implications. Very clear what this game is trying to say.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And I think for a lot of people, this might be their introduction to these kinds of concepts. Because I can imagine myself, you know, If I'm like, 16 or 17, I love playing RPGs. Oh, my God. Like, oh, I played Persona 5 when I was, like, younger, and I didn't really get it, but it was cool to see cool characters and style, all that.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Then he plays something like this, like, oh, I like these kinds of games. And then you get introduced to this, like, this wild world where all these things, like, this might be your first introduction to a political text. You know, read a book and all that. Cool. But, you know, people are going to play video games. And for example, the original Deus X was one of my introductions to, like, the concepts of power structures and governments and conspiracies and. And through that, I'm like, oh, shit. That this is kind of based on real things like the Illuminati. Well, I don't think the Illuminati exists. If it does, hey, shoot me an invite. I'm down. But just the idea, like, these concepts and ideas being fed to me as a 13 year old, I was like, oh, my God, like, I can't believe this stuff is Based in reality and on to certain extents, especially with like AI and government control, all these things like that was introduced to me through Deus Ex and then from there I got really into politics and government. I studied it and I became. I got involved in like in politics professionally for a certain amount of time. And then so I imagine like this, this being one of someone's introductory experiences to these concepts. And I think if that is, if that when that happens to somebody, this is a very good one of those. Yeah, so this isn't meant for like college graduates who have studied politics and all the ins and outs of Marxism and all that shit. Like that's not really what this game is for. Yeah, but it is a good one of those where it's like they demonstrate an understanding of the concepts they are working with and they tell a full story around it and they don't pull any punches.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, I think sometimes and a lot of the time honestly you need that like 101 or 102 class to get people in. And like similar to you, Michael.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like for me it was playing Metal Gear Solid 3 as a kid and playing the Metal Gear Solid franchise that opened my eyes up in terms of like the relationship between military and government and what a independent military can be and like, you know, conspiracy and like, you know, a lot of things that probably are a result of how I think and behave now probably stem back to me playing Metal Gear Solid three when I was like young and impressionable. And I think I might have mentioned this before with Metal 40 Fantasia in terms of like how it goes about its own themes and subjects, which is. Yeah, like I wouldn't. This isn't a high advanced level politics class of a video game, but it is, I think a really good like base level of hey, you are in a fantasy world and they are holding their first election because they are in a system that is, you know, typically a royal. We're going to pass this down via blood or whatever it is. Like no, like we are doing an election. It's going to be the first election of these people and it's them having to grapple with the talking points and the topics that you do with an election that's determined by the people in real time and have to figure out like what those conversations are. Whether it is like based on race, whether it's based on class, whether it's based on like whatever kind of like service levels is the wrong word for it. But I guess like you know, visible category of person that you can like find right. Like they're having those conversations in real time. And I found it, I found it fascinating too do like the debates because I'm trying to raise my eloquence or whatever and like, but in the process.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Of doing that it's like, oh yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like they're getting into those conversations and like, you know, the people will say a certain thing and I have to respond and you know, when I have low eloquence, my response is going to be trash. But as they get higher, Right. I'm able to have that dialogue with people and like kind of, you know, have those topics touched on in a way where I'm like, okay, cool. Like I like the fact that we are talking about this openly. Right. The fact that we can talk about Heisme as a huge. And how that puts him in a place where people are more likely to believe that he is responsible for this fucked up shit.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Kidnapping children.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Because he's a euge.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Barrett Courtney]

Like, you know, he's a lesser tribe.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

He's a lesser tribe. Right. Or like your main character being an elder and how like that factors into your day to day of existing in that world. Like I really like how they go about it and I think when you take that subject matter and layer on top of it the fantasy element, but then also the idea of like the human element of it in the mystery there as far as oh, this is maybe a fantasy world that is built on top of the remains of a previous human society. Or is it like, you know, there's. I think they, they weave that stuff together really well in a way that I think one lends really good mystery early on, but then also I think allows for the subject matter to grow and breathe very naturally throughout the game.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. In a similar vein, we talked about this on our Metaphor versus Persona gamescast where it was refreshing to play this game in an election year where it is purely about rising up against kind of like traditional two party systems or lesser than evil voting.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Where you've got the head of the state church and then the head of like the military essentially who is like kind of distanced himself from the military to try to, you know, seem like he is someone new and different. And it kind of seeing everybody running mostly those main two, but a lot of people running, recognizing that there's a lot of anger for. From people who are just trying to survive every day and how good at swaying those people and directing that anger to things that are unwarranted. You know, politicians are, which I would say the top two Were like, the most serious politicians. And then everybody else is, like, kind of learning as they go and, you know, like, shout out to. Is her name Catherine in this one?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Catherina.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, Catherine. Like, everybody just trying to figure out. Because they're also just angry and they're just like, trying to figure out, like, what the fuck do we do?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

And being someone who can rise above the noise and actually run on the frustrations and anger of the people and not have, like, an ulterior motive to that. Like, that was something, seeing with the main plot of the game that, like, really, really stuck with me. And it's just like, God, God damn.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, that's a.

[Barrett Courtney]

That's a good story. That's a good video game right there.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

And I do, like, where we end up in the latter half, maybe toward the end of the game, where they talk about anxiety being the root cause of, like, how you are able to harness Magla. But then also, Luis, like, using people's anxiety to its benefit.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, I think that is a point that I was like, okay, this is very smart. Like, this is one of those ones where, of course, it's so on the nose, but also, you know, I think a lot of the time we need that because, I don't know, like, for me, it just worked. The idea that, like, this guy who is a tyrant, who does not have evil's best interests in mind, who's, like, looking out for himself and also looking out for destruction and all this stuff, right? Like, he's able to, you know, get people on his side because he sees that the people are anxious. He sees that the people are, like, you know, unhappy, whatever it is. And he's able to, like, twist that to his benefit. It's so like, oh, damn, this is real right here.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. And, like, it's. It's. It's not subtext, but it's important to, like, make that a key point of your story. If you were going to tell a story about a political story about an election and fighting this tyrant, like, that is a key part of making sure you communicate how this guy is an actual villain. It's like, yeah, he's the bad guy. I gotta fight. Right. But he's exploiting something and he's. He's manipulating people to his benefit. And, like, that's, again, like, that's a. That's a core concept, but it is consistent throughout and is convincing. So by the time you make it to the end, you're like, oh, yeah, I understand why I was fighting this guy, why he was bad for people. And so, yeah, that makes metaphor's story feel complete. It feels like they. They. And they. They pose all these questions and they answer them.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Towards the end.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

So, yeah, and I think it's. And I think it's like, to your point, like, it's a great answer of, you know, how this is happening. And also, like, I mean, a big theme of this game, obviously, is metaphors, right? This is like the game is on the nose with its references, but also on the nose with its metaphors. And like, very like, hey, look at what we're doing here. And so, yeah, it being that anxiety is like, you know, it allows for maglev, which allows for essentially power. Yeah, Like, I think that's a really cool one for one, as far as, like, what happens in the real world as far as, like, you know, an election we just had and like, being a lot of people in the world, but also, especially in our country, right. Are like, fucking anxious and like, what. What are the results that that brings? Right? Like, who are the people that are running that can be. That can be able to capitalize on top of how people feel, those negative feelings that people feel people are unhappy. How do we make an enemy within, like, all this shit?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, you know, there's a really cool one, for one, that the game does with being able to, I guess, speak on that stuff. And, like, that's not just the United States thing. That's a worldwide thing as far as how leaders are able to manipulate people in order to, like, you know, gain power. Gain power from it. But, yeah, I love how metaphor, I guess, uses its metaphors in that way.

[Michael P. Hyam]

There are a few, like, within that, there are a few moments in which a few lines throughout the game that really convince me that, like, oh, they, like, they're covering their bases. I think two of them come from Heisme. When you have the intro conversation with him, it's really funny because they show the art screen with all the different colored hands holding each other. I was like, all right, I know what you're trying to say. But within that, he says, like, he says something about, like, diversity being one of humanity's greatest strengths. And like, of course, yes, that is true. And also he also says equal foot, equal competition, does not guarantee equal footing. And that's the whole concept behind affirmative action.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yep.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And so I'm like, oh, okay. Like that the game is just saying that outright. And it's coming from Heisme, who is the one who has experienced these things in his life. And then there's also early on you talk to the activist woman in Grant Trad and she was like, yeah, I wish more people were like you who are willing to like pitch in because you know nothing happens if you don't take action.

[Barrett Courtney]

Right?

[Michael P. Hyam]

And that's just like, oh yeah, of course. Like we know that, but at least the game says it outright, so there's no mistaking what they're trying to say.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It's a game that's like not afraid to have a message and it's not afraid to like have its own politics and be able to preach, like preach those messages.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It's political. But also we have something to say here.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, I want to keep talking about the major themes of this game because obviously there's a lot of political themes in this game. But there's another theme that I want to talk about which is the theme of fiction and what fiction does to truly inspire people. But first I want to tell you about the Kind of Funny membership where you can get access to watch our afternoon podcast live as we record them. You get all of our shows ad free and you get a daily exclusive show known as Greg Way. But right now you're not using your Kind of Funny membership benefits. So here's a word from our sponsor.

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[Barrett Courtney]

I am looking for the quote. I am so close to finding this quote unquote. Hyam.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Hi.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Watching the intro video.

[Barrett Courtney]

I'm watching the intro video of this, like, shoot, like 48 hour video. Michael Hyam.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yo.

[Barrett Courtney]

Is fantasy limited to the confines of imagination? Would you call it a powerless creation?

[Michael P. Hyam]

I would not call it a powerless creation.

[Barrett Courtney]

Hard it goes so hard. It very much sets out. That's the kind of first question that I believe Moore asks you at the very beginning of the game.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Moore is more or less the narrator at that point.

[Barrett Courtney]

And I really love what this game also has. Obviously there's a lot of political messages. There's a lot of trying to awaken people to recognize their material conditions around them and get them to look at the first steps that they can take to improve those things. And it also grapples with like, just because we ask that of you, does that actually make it effective? Right. And for me, that like really was like a big point that I love that I think really came together. When you learn that you are actually a part of the consciousness of the princess. Yeah. And he grew up and you learned that like you grew up reading this fantasy book about like this utopia that very much looks like our society and all this stuff. And he actually got to live out his fantasy of being this hero who actually did stuff to help society, kind of reflecting back on, you know, audiences who kind of consume art. And what does that actually do to inspire them to like live out their ideals.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah, it's. It was probably the. That's. That was the thing that hit me the hardest. And I'm probably gonna cry in the second half of this goddamn podcast because. Holy, dude. And it's really funny that it came from Atlas. Yep. Because Persona 5 was a turning point in my life where I had just moved to San Francisco, I didn't really know anybody, and having played that game, it. It felt like a weight off my shoulders in terms like, oh, this is it. It felt easier to talk to people like it. Like, through the social link, the confidant system, and bonding with these characters. I'm like, oh, these conversations aren't as scary or as I should. I don't have to be as anxious to have to try and build these connections. And it made it a lot easier for me to talk to my parents, talk to my brother, my family. I was the youngest one, and it was kind of hard to have conversations about certain things with my mom and my dad, my brother. But after playing P5, I was like, oh, this. I feel like I have a new lens in which I can see the rest of the world. That piece of fiction tangibly affected my life for the better. So, like, yeah. And I say that for a couple of other games, like Final Fantasy 14, like Persona 3, just to name a few, a thousand times. Resist is up there as well. So, yeah, the power of the fiction can change you, but it's like, what do you do with. With that story that you love so dearly? Yeah. Are you going to turn it into action? That's why I thought. I thought a lot about P5 was like, I got more involved in. I always worked in politics, but I felt like at a certain point, I need to be active in my own way and I need to do something. Like, I'm. I need to take action in order to change something. That is what P5 is about.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And then so I got politically involved in my own life. So it's like, yes, these. These works of fiction can motivate you to be better, to do something more. So when that. That was the first question they ask you in metaphor, and that is the last thing they leave you with is like, hey, we hope that this. We hope that this story, you can carry this into your own life.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. I want to bring up. I wasn't just rudely on my phone while you're talking about all this. I'm going to bring up a quote from Gallica near the end of the game where she says, you've got the You've got the power to change the world, and the one who gave it to you was, well, yourself.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

And I think that really drives home of, like, you know, fiction can change things and can push people, but it's still the steps you need to take to continue to strive to live up to your ideals and make positive changes to the world around you.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And that. That theme, like, because they always. They poke and poke around with that idea, like, throughout the game. It's like, oh, yeah, this is a piece of. This is a fiction, huh? It's like, okay, yeah, I get it. But when you go back to the elder village and you get the reveal that you are an avatar of the prince, that you are the hero in his book, that fucked me up. Yeah, because, like, the prince, he's dead. He dies, but you live on through him. And all of the dreams that he had in that book, the thing like the early scene where you're in the forest with him, and then he has, like, he's holding on to the book and it's like, yeah, well, like, this is the story I love and I want to be a hero. And then you have that conversation with you, like, as a young version of the protagonist, like, you'll be a hero someday, trust me. And then they, like, they shake hands, he lifts them up and, like, the prince is sick, but. So he doesn't physically have the power to do anything about it, but he believes in this story that means so much to him. And then through the power of magic, creates an avatar based on the hero in that book that he loves so much. And, like, that whole idea of my avatar, my idealized hero is the one who changed the world is like, that is just like a, like the most on the nose, I guess, direct way to show you to tell that story, that this piece of fiction can change the world. If you can put that energy into the world, if you can learn the lessons of your pieces, favorite pieces of fiction, then you can change the world too. It's an optimistic way of looking at things, but it is beautiful in that same way. Like, it doesn't have to be necessarily, like, nuanced or like, it could just be that. And it's. And it's powerful enough. And I think that the way metaphor tells that is it's. It's amazing. Like when. Because they replay that forest scene and you. That's when you realize, like, oh, I was never real. I'm not a real person. And like, the. The prince had no one to lean on. His only friend was that Imaginary friend of that book. And it's like, man, that should me up, man. Because I can imagine just, like, these kinds of stories where, like, this is all you. This is all you really have. And it kind of remind me a little bit of how it was to play Persona 5 when I first moved here in San Francisco. Or I'm like, ah, no, these. These are my friends here. Like, I'll kick it. I'll kick it with. I'm still learning every. I'm still learning who everyone is at the Gamespot office. I'm still making friends, trying to see how I fit in, whatever. But I come back here and, like, oh, I'm chilling with the homies. These are my people. That's why, like, it hit so hard when I finished P5, because I'm like.

[Barrett Courtney]

Those are the friends. Yeah. It's like, I gotta say go now.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Because I. So I understand, like, what metaphor is saying. I understand what that protagonist or what the prince is feeling in that moment.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Well, I think one of the things that's very excellent about this, right. Like, I think it really hit for me as Bear was reading the recap, I bolted this part. You know, talking about the big twist, right? The biggest twist in the game is that you are not actually the childhood friend of the prince, but, in fact, the prince himself. And through the magic of your mother's tribe, your consciousness was put inside the prince's ideal form of a typical hero. And therefore, the prince got to actually live the hero's journey he had always dreamed of.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, the prince is us, right? Like, we are seeing this avatar on screen. Live out, like, our dreams, live out this, like, adventure. Live out this thing where they get to be the hero and they get to inflict change. And in return, like, there's this synergistic, like, relationship that we have with ourselves, the game, and, like, the messages that the game wants to portray. Like, I think one of the powerful things. And I think this is where the game goes from being on the nose to actually being, like, very layered and deep in a way that is almost like a looping message that it has here where, you know, the hero in the. Well, the game starts off with asking, what is your name? And for me, I name every character in a video game my name, right? Like, I am playing as myself.

[Barrett Courtney]

And they, like, say, like, what is your name? You will name the protagonist later.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yes. And so I was like, okay, well, my name's Blessing. They're like, later on, you know, for you, maybe an hour or so into the game. They're like, all right, name the protagonist. And I'm like, okay, well, I can't name him Blessing, like, because I am a character in this. Like, they want me to be a.

[Barrett Courtney]

Smart way to, like, drive that home.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Early on.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

And so, like, I ended up naming my character Kendrick one after Kendrick Lamar. But then also. Of course you did, because I. Because I have to. But then also, the name Kendrick means king. And so, like, in a way, like, I kind of did it for the symbolism of that. But, you know, your main character in the game, he is reading this book that is reflective of the society that we currently live in. But to him, it is a fiction again. Or is it because you get later in the game where there's a big kind of back and forth.

[Barrett Courtney]

We'll talk about that. We'll talk about that.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

For sure. There is this. He is reading our world's fiction, which is affecting his story. His story is, at the same time, you know, a reflection of the prince's story because he is living out this thing. Like, he is an avatar of what the prince wants to be. The prince in this scenario is pretty much who we are as a player because we are seeing this thing take place through the game. And I think the way that they connect all those things is super beautiful and super great because. Yeah, like, I think the message there is so strong as far as the power of fiction and the power that, like, stories and for us, like, we play so many video games, right. Like, I can think of so many games that I played that have had such a positive effect on me as a person. Right. Like, one of my favorite things or, like, one of my favorite. Yeah, one of my favorite things I've listened to as far as, like, people on a podcast talk about a game and how they affected them is like, going back to when Greg Miller first talked about Gone Home and, like, hearing how, you know, powerful of a game. Gone Home was for him that a lot that leading then to me playing Gone Home and me having this experience of, wow, this is a powerful story. And this is making me think about, like, people, our relationships, like, you know, what love means, all this stuff in a different way. And you, like, jump around to different games, right, that, like, have these messages. Oh, what was the mobile game? That was about, like, a young adult that fell in love and then over time, broke up.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Florence.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Florence, yeah, like, the profound effect that Florence had on me as a video game. Right. Like, there's so many games and so many stories, works of fiction that, like, can have Profound effects. And, like, that is a big aspect of this game that I think they really nail home.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. And so another thing too is, like, when you mentioned naming the different. Like, you name yourself first and then you name your character.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And I was like, oh, cool. Like, what are they going to do with that? Oh, they're trying to, like, make a connection to a real world. And it's like, okay, that's. That's kind of a neat concept.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

But the ending monologue to this game brought that all together. I remember I finished this game and I was. I was playing at Lucy's place because I was watching the cats, and so I was just like, on her couch at, like, 2am watching the. The ending to this game. And I was just, like, in a puddle of tears. I could not stop. Just, like, it wasn't like, oh, I'm sad or whatever. I was just, like, kind of overwhelmed by the message and how it was, how it was given. So I, like, I rewatched that. That cutscene a lot. I'm pulling up my discord messages to my friends when I was talking about it. But, like, the last line is, you know, says, dear guest, from a world I shall never know in your eyes. I know our journey was ultimately a fiction. However, I hope your memories of this fantastical adventure burn as bright in your reality. I hope the promise of our world echoes in you. And with all my heart, I hope that fantasy gives you strength. And it's like, fuck, man. Like, it's a very simple message, but it felt so powerful to hear someone say that.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

And the way they say, like, you truly, I feel, like, feel the passion and care I feel like this team has behind, like, their works of art and how they so beyond what makes fiction, like, kind of successful or what makes art successful. They just want it to connect to people so badly and so passionately. And that was something that really had an effect on me as well.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Just, I think, like, the ending card says, like, the one true seeker, and then it's your name.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Y'All got me, dog. It was beautiful, man.

[Barrett Courtney]

So kind of relating to all of this. I want to take it back to the kind of our world stuff in this book we eventually, you know, like, we. We have this fantasy book that reflects our world very similarly, even though, you know, they. They call it a utopia. And there's all these things that we don't actually live. And, like, that's, like.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It feels purposeful in that way, right?

[Barrett Courtney]

Oh, yes, 100%. And I. I love near the end of the game, right. When we get the reveal that you're the prince. And then the other things, right. Is that more is actually a part of the king's consciousness. And the, the woman's voice that you hear throughout the game whenever someone awakens to their archetype was your mother.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

And so you're kind of, you're being guided the entire time by your parents, which I think is also something that hits home because you never get to have that connection with them. And they're doing everything in their power to be able to, to guide you through that. And that's very similar to artists in a way of, like, they create something and hope that it can guide and point, lead someone in a certain direction. And like, the parents definitely feel like, like in weird way, like they see them. Atlas sees themselves as the parents of, like, we're gonna do as much as we can because we can't be there for you in the moment. And you get this moment with More where he's trying to protect you. You're doing the whole battle with Luis and you get through that first battle, I'm like, oh, I beat the game. It's like, no, you still got like, yeah, you still gotta fight more and you gotta fight Louise as he's connected.

[Michael P. Hyam]

To a big ass ship. God damn, some real rpg.

[Barrett Courtney]

And More tries to protect you because there, there's that moment where he's like, no, I just, I don't want you to be, you know, up from this reality. I want you to hide away. And you transport into, you know, what is it like crossing? And you have to fight more and kind of let hit, like, remind him of like, we can't, no matter how powerful fiction and art can be, we can't get lost in it and just use it purely as escapism. Escapism is okay and it's good. But when we fully lose ourselves in it, the things that around us that make us want to lose ourselves in fiction don't get better. And that old exchange between yourself and More throughout that fight is just like that. That hit me like a fucking ton.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It was bricks. It was, it was a really, it was a clever trick. When it happened, I was like, oh, yeah, of course they're going to do this, right?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And it's one of those things where in ways metaphor is predictable, but that's to its benefit.

[Barrett Courtney]

And I, I appreciate that. It wasn't like, for a second I was like, are they going to do the thing where actually like, we've been inside the book the entire time. And like, this is reality. And like, he tries to trick you into that. Of like, no, this is the real world. Like, come, come live with me here. And you have to kind of fight against that. And because we were, you know, we had a lot of guessing of like, what are the vibes sort of humans. What is this book really about? Where is this all going to lead? And I'm glad they had like the restraint to not be like, all right, now you're in the Persona 5 world and that's how we're going to. Metaphor is actually like a really. It's a great selling book. That.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Very impressive that they didn't lean into that, right? That, like, that was just like a little. A little fake out slash, a little like character building moment. As far as, hey, like, you have this choice. Like, you can. You can, like you mentioned Barrett, right? Like, you can go all in on the escapism or you can actually go back into your real world and like.

[Barrett Courtney]

Figure, like, make change.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It's also a message about like being overprotective parents too, right? It's like you have to let your kid experience the world for what it is at a certain point. You can't shelter them to that. And that's kind of what more reaches a breaking point where it's like, hey, I created. I'm the author of this book. I created this world for you. Why don't you want to just like, why don't you just want this? And it's like, please accept it. Like, you'll be free from everything else, all the bad in the world. It's like, no, that's not how life goes though. Like, you can't. You can't just shelter your kids the entire time. They have to figure the world out on their own at some point. And I think that they send the right message with that. And I. It almost reminds me, I don't think we maybe we shouldn't get into Evangelion spoilers. But it does. This whole thing is very thrice upon a time. Ava influences so many pieces of Japanese fiction, of course, but this is one moment of where like, oh, I'm Shinji and that's Gendo, but like a better version of Gendo, because Gendo is a piece of shit through and through. More is not More is. Has. Is, you know, has these ideals. Is comes from a good place. But it feels very similar to that and like the storytelling mechanisms to send that message. But yeah, it is.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It was.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Man, that was one of my favorite moments. And like, you said when you get the reveal that the voice guiding you was, you know, your mother. Yeah. Your mom. Or like more is like that voice. I. I missed you. And like, like, also.

[Barrett Courtney]

And the conversation, the little. The little side conversation they have when Moore's alone in academia, it's like that.

[Michael P. Hyam]

That me up, man. Because, like, oh, man, like, it's. You know, when my mom passed away last year, obviously it was devastating, but I think what I realized over time since she's been gone is that she has been motivating me in so many ways where, like, I'm learning to make the dishes she used to make. I talk about her a lot with people and I like, I empathize with people in a different way who. Who've gone through similar things. Like, I just get it now. And I think that with her passing, I've like, grown up a lot in many ways. And like, the things that she used to do for me, the things that she used to tell me are still guiding me to this day. So when I saw that in metaphor, I'm like, they fucking get it. This is like, this makes perfect sense.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It's a really beautiful way to send that message.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Do you guys have any thoughts on why his name is Moore?

[Barrett Courtney]

It's based off of timeless Moore.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

There you go.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. There is a real book called Utopia that's written by the author.

[Michael P. Hyam]

We all got kind of feudy.

[Barrett Courtney]

Is your thought. What is your.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I was asking. Cuz I was like, I was looking for more of like a symbolic, like, oh, he. Like, he. Maybe he. It's.

[Michael P. Hyam]

There's more to this.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, maybe, maybe like. Yeah, I was looking for, like. I was looking for the metaphor.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I was looking for the.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I was looking for the metaphorical answer. You guys had a literal answer.

[Michael P. Hyam]

That's valid too, man.

[Barrett Courtney]

To. To. You know, we. We've been talking about a lot of like, very big theme, heady stuff. That's been really fun and it's. It's been great to finally kind of like, like let it all out and like, really unload on and talking about these things outside of just like vaguely talking about it in a review. Yeah. But I want to get to some. Some fun. Let's talk about the deep lore of this game because obviously, like one of the big things with this being the former Persona led team making this game but still being under Atlas blessing. And I at least were like, all right, well, how are they going to connect this back to Persona? What are the connections? What are the things? And all this stuff? And we learn at some point, right in the middle of the game when you go to the. Was it the Dragon island and you see the underground of this island that is like this fallen civilization that looked like modern day buildings and all this stuff. And it's like, oh, interesting. You learn once you go back to the Elden village, you see the like history of like vaguely what happened to humanity, how that transitioned into this like new world. And I think they do enough cutesy things, right to like they give enough for people to have a headcanon of like, oh, this is post Persona. I think it's post SMT because it's more like apocalyptic crazy, right? Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I remember walking to. I think it was like talking to Michael in the kitchen and being like, dude, I feel like this is Persona after things went wrong, like the demons.

[Barrett Courtney]

Won and obviously like they. They were wearing that on their sleeves too. Because the protagonist just. Just looks like the Persona 3 attack protagonist. Stroll just looks like the Persona 4 protagonist. And also like it's Katarina. Like all of it. It was like, okay, how are like we going to loop back.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It's also one of those things where the game is so Persona and it's moment to moment of oh man, this character reaches a big character building moment.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And then the power gets an awakening.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, they get. And literally Lady Juna, I believe it's her power that when she fully masters it up up. It's called what is on a Master Persona Master. And I love. They had so much fun when she. Because you usually call your archetype and she would yell Persona Master.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It's like this pause where it's like I know what you are doing.

[Barrett Courtney]

They're doing all these stuff. Like obviously there's also Devil Summoner or Demon Summoner. Right.

[Michael P. Hyam]

There's Devil. Devil is a high level class soul hackers.

[Barrett Courtney]

Soul Hackers was like one of the archetypes. So they're doing a lot of just like little things to give people like a fun little headcanon of like how does this all connect? The one thing I did not have on my bingo card of 2024 was that this was going to have less substantial connections to the other games and more so of a connection to Etrian Odyssey.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

What?

[Barrett Courtney]

The absolute. That was crazy. So you know, at the end of like the UFA kind of big story arc on the island, you know, the her brother who's the Masari chief is like, you know, we don't have normal naming conventions and we don't name streets, we don't name places and stuff. Because, you know, we don't. I forget what their philosophy was behind that, but his kind of resolve there is. You know, everybody else called this, like, a different name. And I don't want where we live to be defined by other people. I want to define it. And I thought that was, like, a really fucking great moment. But then he's like, you know, we worship this dragon God, E.T. and I should. Like, I should have seen this coming. And he was like, I'm gonna name this island Etria. And I had that moment. I was like, wait a minute. The only reason I know about Etrian Odyssey is because I did Persona Ranked. And the Persona Q games are just like a. Like a ripoff of Etrian Odyssey. And I had to look up the lore of Etrian Odyssey where he. The brother says in metaphor, he's like, I hope one day this humble village can grow into, like, a bustling city, like, on the mainland. And Etrian Odyssey does take place in Etria, and the main city used to.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Be a small little village, and it's, like, seaside town.

[Barrett Courtney]

This is a Met. This is metaphor, is an Etrian Odyssey prequel.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

What's funny is that. Yeah, like, what's funny?

[Barrett Courtney]

That is the. Like, it could be headcanon, all that stuff, but that is the most clear, like.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah, it's the most direction.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, it's so funny, because I got to that part, and, yeah. He was like, we'll call it ET Ria. And I was like, oh, man, that's interesting. It's almost like Etrian Odyssey. And I. I didn't. Because I didn't realize that Atlas made Etri. So I was like, oh, that's a funny thing. Like, that's almost close to Etrian Odyssey. And I didn't think about it until, like, I think I came into work the next morning embarrassed. Like, you can use. See the thing. And I was like, what? And he was like, entry and Odyssey. And I was like, oh, I didn't realize that that was actually the thing, so.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And the. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but when you make it to that second layer of that dungeon, it's built like an Etrian Odyssey dungeon. Like, the way the hallways, like, the way they're all.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And like, the. The. The ears. The way they. They. Their patterns are along. Like, that's the same thing as foes in Etrian Odyssey, where they follow a path that they move when you move.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yes.

[Michael P. Hyam]

So that is a direct Etrian Odyssey mechanic that is built into that dungeon also.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That dungeon I hated that that dungeon was so, that d so long and so difficult and, like, had to do.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Like three runs of that.

[Barrett Courtney]

I, I, I think we can agree that was, that was the roughest dungeon. What was your.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I still enjoyed it, but it was in there. This is work.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. What was your favorite dungeon?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Oh, a good question. The first one was a good intro, but it was for like, I'm going through a castle, whatever.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

The second one, we're going through sewers and then we fight the big ugly baby.

[Barrett Courtney]

Big.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. Oh, my God. That would. That thing gave me nightmares for days, man. That was like. I know that they revel in, like, these up designs that are from the Garden of Earthly Delights. A lot of references there, direct references. But that baby, the, the. Oh, Jesus. When I had to fight it the second time, because when you go to the final dungeon and you have to refight all those big bosses again, I'm like, I didn't want to see this again.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

No.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Oh, it's so disgusting.

[Barrett Courtney]

I struggle to come up with, like, a clear favorite dungeon because the stuff that I really enjoyed were the moments that I felt like were less like dungeon y and more so set pieces. Set pieces that reminded me of like, the full moon events in Persona 3, where you're doing less dungeon crawling and you're doing more setup for cool things. The whole, like, the heist for, in Luis's flying Gauntlet Runner, like, during the party in the soiree and all that stuff that was like, this is cool. And coming up with the plan of like, finding the route in and all very P5 code. It was very P5 coded.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Because there's stealth moments in there too.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yes.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And like, stealth mechanics aren't great, but I like, I, I like the idea.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. And like, to me, I think story wise as well, like how that all comes together where, like, you kind of know, you kind of can sense like, Juna's doing her own thing. But then like, you have that moment where she's like, oh, we're, we're on the same side. It's like, oh, shit, you're the other agent that I've totally forgot that there was one like fucking 20 hours ago. Like, all of that, like, the way that comes together and then we, you know, we join Louis Luis's like, ranks and stuff. I think, like, story wise, like, that section of the game I thought was really, really fun because I didn't expect us to like, work for Luis, to try to get close to him and shit.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I think my, my favorite, not necessarily my Favorite dungeon. But I think what led to one of my favorite moments in the game was the church assassination or, like the opera assassination. Like, there wasn't much dungeon to it, but it felt like, oh, we're. We're. We're gonna do this shit.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Fuck. We have the lance. We have the plan.

[Barrett Courtney]

You're on the chandelier.

[Michael P. Hyam]

We know for a fact that he's here. And the chandelier scene was nuts because Juna's performing, she's singing. We know what the plan is. Everyone's like, hey, we're good. We're gonna do this. And then there's just like, this tension where you. Where the. The protagonist starts shaking, like, oh, something's gonna go wrong. But he. And there's a moment like, as. As he's kind of, like, bracing himself to do it. Juna has a line and she's singing, says, I am thou. Thou art I. That is one of the lines that she sings in it. And I. I know what y'all are doing, but it is really intense moment, and you do it and it's. It's just like the spectacle. And then eventually what happens is like, oh, like there's other kinds of mechanisms. Oh, he didn't really kill him. Then you have to, like, fight him on top of. Top of the roof. But it was just like this. This intense moment where it feel. Felt like something was going to happen. Like, the cinematography to it, the reference to the Persona reference, and the way the camera work, and it just felt like all these pieces finally coming together. Of course, you know there's going to be more to the game. I'm only, like, 50 hours in at this point. Of course there's going to be another 50 hours, but.

[Barrett Courtney]

But the calendar goes to October. We're in, like, fucking September or whatever.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. And so it felt. But it felt like this turning point, and the way they framed that turning point was like, oh, my God, this game's got juice, man.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I don't think I have a favorite dungeon. Like, I, like, started scrolling through them and I was like, I don't like any of these guys. Like, I. I enjoyed playing through the dungeons when none of them were, like, standout to me in a way that, like, I feel like P5 had some standout dungeons to me.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I do. I think, like, dungeons may have been, like, one of the weaker points of metaphor, I think, where they have great.

[Barrett Courtney]

Moments, but I think, like, still the. The flow of going through the dungeon is still really fun and satisfying, and it's hard to follow up on P5 that felt like very. Like they're trying out very light puzzles and like doing all these like more curated things. And I think for them to kind of go into a different genre and make another kind of more curated thing and not like a procedural like mementos type of situation was maybe a little bit more of a hurdle than they may.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

It's funny because on a gameplay level, if I had to play through P5 again or metaphor again, just like playing through the dungeons, I'm going metaphor just because I think the gameplay is fun. But yeah, I think the dungeon design and this is something that I'd love to see in metaphor too. Right. Like, I would love to see that maybe take a step up as far as getting a bit more creative and like getting maybe kind of wild with some of the concepts that you can do in the dungeons. That said, the one that I guess hit for me on a like a theatric level is getting swallowed by that sandworm.

[Barrett Courtney]

Oh yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Even though like the gameplay of like.

[Barrett Courtney]

Playing through that dungeon and get to the anus.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, like, is like such a great. And then, yeah, you have 10 minutes and it's like, all right, I'm in and out, I'm going out the shitter, I guess.

[Barrett Courtney]

But like.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

And also, yeah, you feel a bit rushed in there. There's like a lot going on and I don't think the actual gameplay of that dungeon was the best. I do love getting swallowed by a giant sandworm and have to like climb out of its anus.

[Barrett Courtney]

That's what's up. Two major beats that I want to get to before I open it up to questions that I got on social media. Who's your favorite Bond? It's a big question. You can talk about, you know, some of the companions within the party themselves or just like kind of all of the bonds in general. But for me to kind of start it off, just to give you all just a minute or two to think here, I think Basilio, I think is my favorite. Like, I talked about this or hinted at. This is like, Basilio is like my favorite, one of my favorite characters in fiction. Now the story he goes through in the main story with Dell and you know, you and I have talked off air about his awakening and how just heart wrenching that is and just one.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Of the best moments in the game.

[Barrett Courtney]

It's one of the best moments in the game and the way like it's after Dell dies and he walks past this pole and Dell just sort of appears and he kind of is talking to his brother without talking to him. And Dell being present for the awakening moment, like, in the whole thing, it's.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Like, oh, it's so beautiful.

[Barrett Courtney]

It's so beautiful, and it hurts. But I also. I really love his specific, like, bond tree as well, of him meeting back up with, like, an old friend who was also experimented on, like, back when him and del were, you know, just trying to. Trying to get by. And him, you know, Dell kind of leaves him the quest of, like, I was the older brother, and I was. I was the one who kind of always let us. But now you have to be that person. And Basilio kind of coming into his own and figuring out for himself and taking charge and recognizing of, like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have taken those drugs from my buddy, because he might have needed them more to, like, actually, like, get better. And realizing what his buddy was doing, that really, really hit for me. And so I really love Basilio. And I think to the strength of the bonds that you have here. I think the weakest one is the dude from the first town with the pointy ears. The big dude in, like, the green. Like, he's like, oh, the commander guy?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah, Commander second town is like, he's.

[Barrett Courtney]

The weakest one, but his story is still so good and so strong and, like, made me care so much about what he was going through as well.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That's my thing is I have him up there just because I did like his story.

[Barrett Courtney]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

And I like him almost being a. Oh, you're kind of a failure at this. Like, you want to be the leader of this town, but you just don't have the stuff. And it's like, you know, when you're talking about the stuff that he doesn't have, it's not like he's not confident. It's not like he doesn't have, like, military skill or whatever.

[Barrett Courtney]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, he's a big strong man. But guess what? You need more than being a big strong man to actually, like, help lead and guide these people. And so to, like, kind of see through that storyline I thought was interesting. I was. I was interested in it. Alonzo was one that stuck out to me.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Alonzo, I like, very good.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I like a bad dude.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. You know, and he's such a good bad dude.

[Michael P. Hyam]

He's a heart of gold.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

A good bad dude. Because, like, he's the only social link, really, that's. Or follower. That's like, I can't tell. Like, I. I feel like you're gonna betray me. Like, I feel like you're up to some bad this whole time. Like, everybody else is somewhat cool. You, on the other hand, like.

[Barrett Courtney]

Like, you're kind of. Yeah, yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

You're a villain. Like, man. In my history of playing Persona, I tend to find those characters and I don't fall in love with them at the end. Right. Persona 3 had the one dude who was the salesman, the TV salesman.

[Michael P. Hyam]

He sucks until the end. He consistently sucks. I still hate him to this.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I think the last thing I did in Persona 3 reload is finish Tanaka's.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Social terrible thing to end on.

[Barrett Courtney]

And I was like, you need to just beat that game. Get that.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I know I need to get that bad taste out my mouth, but, like, I was looking forward to homie being that. Being that, right? To Alonso being that. And, like, Alonso, toward the end, like, the shifts in his narrative, like, the fact that, like, God, when he loses, like, his. He loses his village, I believe, right? Like, he gets burnt down and he is distraught and upset and, like. Like, you know, after that, he's, like, willing to sacrifice himself or, like, kill himself. Straight up. Straight up.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, dude.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Rank five. He's like, I'm gonna kill myself. Like, oh, please don't.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

You're like, please don't kill yourself. Like, there's so much going on. There's a cool restaurant just open.

[Barrett Courtney]

Like, yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

He's like, all right, I guess I won't.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah. And he's. But then, like, you know, later on, he then sacrifices himself and then, turns out, didn't. Like, he has such a good back and forth. And I love his whole character being about deceit and, like, yeah, being a trickster. He's a trickster. And it's funny because toward the end, I was tricked. Toward the end, I was like, damn, he's really. He's really dead. Like, I really believe that he was done for a while.

[Barrett Courtney]

And then you finally get that moment where it's like, oh, thank. Thank God.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah, he leaves you, like, a really sweet note, too, at the end. And, like, the guy that was supposed to be his. Like, his. His adversary, whatever.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Ends up being like, hey, like, you know, Keeper Will with you. Alonzo left this behind. He wanted. He wanted you to hear this message. And I was like, oh, that's really nice. But I was like, this is only rank 9. What could possibly re. Rank 10?

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. Yeah, I do love. And it, like, I was. Jesse Vitali and I were going back and forth a lot throughout the review period for this, and we were both like, we need to see it. What's the race that Alonzo and Lady Juna are like, eyeballs, but they've got the baby form, which is like such a big reveal in June. And it was so weird, so bizarre weird. But at one point, I hit up Jesse. I was like, I need to see Alonzo in his weird baby form where this game's a 0 out of 10. And, like, we get to the end of his bond and they don't do it. I'm like, all right, cool. And then it's funny that in the year later epilogue, he's like, oh, you want to see my baby form? No. And I was like, God damn it.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

They knew it. Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

They knew what I wanted, and they called me out for it.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

But also shout out to Maria, too, as a social, As a. A bond. Right. As a follower.

[Barrett Courtney]

Best childhood.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

You know what?

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. Because connection.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I've had those in Persona 2 where I do not care about the kids. I'm sorry, kid in Persona 5 that's at the arcade all the time. Like, you know, I'm sorry, kid at the shrine in Persona 3. Reload.

[Barrett Courtney]

Hey, no, you don't talk about her.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I still haven't gotten through her thing, though.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Her parents are pieces of.

[Barrett Courtney]

No, but I still care about her.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, yeah, when Maria is, like, having trouble, like, you know, getting along with these kids, and I have to, like, tell the kids, like, hey, like, be cool or whatever, like, you know, it's. I find when you're able to nail that kind of bond between, like, almost like an older brother, younger sister, or almost like a parental kind of like, bond situation going on, like, it's really cool to be able to try and mentor or try and, like, help a kid, right? And like, build a bond for this kid that's going to be healthy for them as they come up, as they're going through this, like, you know, coming of age type scenarios. And so for me, that one was a success. That one I really enjoyed and I loved also that like, like, you know, I get to go on these trips and then bring back these postcards, essentially.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Postcards. Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Oh, yes. Yeah. And that those were the moments. And I've said this before, like, getting the little moments where you're on the Gauntlet Runner and you're. Who's the pilot? Blanking on his name.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Oh, man.

[Michael P. Hyam]

My guy with the drip out here in Gucci flip.

[Barrett Courtney]

Like, he'll be like, hey, we got to stop. There's something cool as shit outside. And you get like the. These soft, like, beautiful piano songs in the background that, like, very much hint back to, like, Persona 3 and Persona 5 in certain moments. And, like, I still have, like, my. My desktop is like, the one on the ocean and looking at the sun.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Some very beautiful art.

[Barrett Courtney]

So beautiful. And, like, being able to, like, send those to her and, like, have her kind of like, hey, I've been traveling the world.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Look at. Look what else?

[Barrett Courtney]

And I love that she joins at the very end where you're, like, off. Fuck, we're getting kind of like, we're just gonna get back out there. And then she actually gets to go on the journey at the end. I was like, fuck, yes. That's. That's awesome. I'm. What about you?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah, man, I got. I got a lot. I. I think the. The reason why so many of the followers hit is, though they do this in all the Personas is where it's like your social links are vessels for you to understand different themes about the game. And so, like, the thing for Maria is, like, you know, treating people who are different from you.

[Barrett Courtney]

You.

[Michael P. Hyam]

You should be. You should be accepting of everyone and kind of roping in Fabian to, like, have this, like, soup kitchen moment where she's like, hey, we're going to, like, we're going to help poor kids get fed and all that. And it's like, okay, cool. They're sending the right message. We're getting her. Maria involved in understanding why these things are important. Because there's also this other kid, like, in that social link, that whole arc, where it's like, hey, this poor kid who's dirty, and everyone, like, treats him like shit. And then Maria's like, well, why do they treat him like that? Like, he just needs a bath or whatever. I'm sure he's a fine person. Whatever. And it's like, well, yes, she gets it. She gets it. And it's like, but let's work to make sure you understand why something like this could happen. So they take that extra step to, like, not just say the right thing, but, like, show you how people get. Can get to that point, how you can understand that. And another one I think is really important, too, is ufas. Because UFAS has to do with religious extremism.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yes.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And, like, that's the whole thing about, like, Mustari are treated differently because they are of a different religion. And when they go out into the world, they have to wear the masks and all that. And then so, like, yeah, there's like, this poor mom and this poor kid or. Yeah. And they're. They're Eugene also. So you see the, like this, this.

[Barrett Courtney]

Pastor tribes kind of can go at each other because of religious indoctrination.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Extremism.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And so. Yeah. And so like, embedded in that is like this idea that the church, the Sanctus Church are always like, doing the right thing, whatever. And then. And so these, These poor UG are. They're being taken care of and then now they're led to believe like the Sanctus Church is absolute right or they're. They're on the verge of that. And like the, The. The poor kid is like asking Yufa, you know, like, why would you. Why would you go against the church? Well, like, they, They've done all this for me. It's like you kind of don't really understand, like, how they're exploiting you and all sort of. So, like, Yufa's whole arc is about. Now tackles that. That part of the religious themes of this game. So I think that was really important. And there's. But there's. There's a bunch of other ones too, that they're also. That really hit the one, I will say about Katherina, where her whole thing is about eat the rich.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It does fall apart in some sense because I think by the end she kind of like, lets go of that idea and, and it's like there's more nuance to that. That whole concept and that idea. But I think she just like, lets it go entirely to the. To the point where I'm like, oh, they didn't really. They didn't really know where they wanted.

[Barrett Courtney]

To land this one.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And I was like, ah, kind of fell through because I, I love.

[Barrett Courtney]

I just liked her as a character.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I loved her.

[Barrett Courtney]

It should have ended with her actually.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Eating a British person.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

She's like, oh, it's an arm. She's like, wait, what do you mean?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Y'all said. But yeah, it's. All these followers feel like they serve a very distinct purpose rather than. Because I think getting away from the arcana system helps a lot because at a certain point in Personas, it felt like we need to just put social links in here to cover all of the different arcana to whether they are good or not. We just need something right here. They. They divorce themselves of that and they can just like, we're just going to have this many followers and they're all going to serve this purpose. It doesn't have to be anything more than that. And having them up to rank 8, too, lets those storylines kind of be a little bit more purposeful in Each rank. Brigitta is great, too, because, like, that's the whole thing about, hey, I sell weapons. I don't want to sell weapons, but this is my business. And then, like, you go through this whole arc like, hey, but you're like, you're part of the problem. And she kind of comes that realization herself and then kind of goes through this whole thing about, like, you know what? In the future I'm gonna try and push, you know, selling what?

[Barrett Courtney]

Can this technology be used for something?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Precisely.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

So again, that's another theme that this game is trying to hit that. And they use the follower system to be in such an effective way to, like, hey, maybe we can't hit on this directly in the main story.

[Barrett Courtney]

So.

[Michael P. Hyam]

But at least you'll see what we have to say about this particular societal problem through your followers. But, yeah, like. And the last thing I want to say about Basilio's awakening, like, that is. The thing about that is. Oh. Oh, my God. Heisme's. Oh, that made.

[Barrett Courtney]

That was the first time Heisman's story was. Like, when I, like, I was into the story so far. Like, I was along for the ride, but when we started actually getting into the Heisman story, I was like, okay, no, this game's got the sauce. Like, they're. They're doing.

[Michael P. Hyam]

They're gonna hit me. And they. They did. It's always just holding the urn of his son's ashes, and he's just. He's just a little guy. Oh, he's. He's so precious.

[Barrett Courtney]

And then he's wearing the bones, like, at the end.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Oh, that's. That's such a beautiful. And like, when you're. It's so funny because you sit with him on the Gauntlet runner and he, like, you just watch him, like, drink sake the whole time. He's like, oh, one day, well, you. You can have a drink too.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

And then.

[Michael P. Hyam]

But you have this conversation where he's like, from here on out, I'm de. Going to dedicate my life to my son and also you, because you. You are my son too. And it's like, dog, like, like, oh. And it's like, I'll die for him, man. Heisman's my boy. He's.

[Barrett Courtney]

He's. He's. Best dad of the year.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Honestly, I didn't think that they would be able to top Sojiro, and they somehow did. It's crazy. It's crazy. Relating to this, Mr. Hawks gave us a question on Blue sky asking, do you think the lack of Needing to grind out social links hurts the way you connected with some characters. I would say. No, I actually honestly thinks it helps focus mechanically on the story and their arcs. I feel like in Persona, when you're like trying to figure out how many points you need friendship points, you need to like unlock the next level, you start thinking more of the game as a game and less so of like what that story is actually supposed to be about. And actually like, I think because they were able to more so get that grindy stuff out of the way and make you truly pay attention and yeah, focus on what's important. I, I think it's, it actually helped, I think, connect to the characters more.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I mean, they still have like the stat points too. It's like, oh, you need like 4 tolerant, like level 4 tolerance to initiate this conversation. But at least the game can tells you how many points you're gaining towards that instead of like hiding it behind some kind of mathematical equation. So yeah, the metaphor is very good about just like showing you things, taking the mystery out and just be like, hey, this is what it is what you have to do. And it's a lot more efficient because of that.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. As we're winding down here, I'm looking towards some questions we got on Blue Sky. Vitz Patel asks, and this is an interesting one because I feel like this is a big topic of conversation. How do you feel about the heavily implied relationship between UFA and the protagonist? I personally adore ufo, but as this moves away from the confidant romance systems of the Persona games, I'm interested to hear your thoughts. And a lot of questions that I got interesting when I put this out. There was about like, like the lack of like the, the relationship sim of this game. I personally adore it.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It's so much better.

[Barrett Courtney]

It's so much better. Like I, I, I think it's fun to have games that do the whole romance thing of like, who do you want your character to end up with and all this stuff. I personally love the implication of it being UFA specifically because it very much they have the vibe of like I having a younger sibling and seeing them with their friends and they're like, like mostly cool. But then they have an awkward moment where you, you look at them, you're. And you think they're gonna be such a cute couple one day. And that is very much the vibe I get between like the Prince and ufa, especially with like Yufa's older brother who kind of picks up on like a vibe like when you're doing your last goodbyes near the end.

[Michael P. Hyam]

You up?

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah, I'll you up. If you break your heart. Essentially, you're a good guy, but I'll you up.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It's like, so. It's so good.

[Barrett Courtney]

And, like, the handshake and all that stuff, I. I personally adore it, and I'm glad that they. They didn't, like, do a thing where it's like, yes, it's definitely hurt, but they do enough where it's like. It almost was like they wanted it to happen, but they're just. You know, they're just.

[Michael P. Hyam]

It feels very natural in that sense.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I think that that's where kind of the Persona romance stuff kind of falls apart is. Because there's a disconnect between who you want to romance through the social links and, like, what actually happens in the main story.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

So I. I think.

[Barrett Courtney]

I think it'd be really weird if you were able to romance Hulkenberg in this, you know?

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. It's so. It just doesn't work for what metaphor is about.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And, like, it makes more sense in Persona where it's like, oh, high school, of course. Like, oh, there's going to be, like, puppy teenage. Like, you're making these connections in the context of Persona makes more sense. And I think three is. So three is kind of where it makes the most sense for how I played it, because I romance Yukari because, like, okay, main character and Yukari seem like they would be the right choice. And when you play, the answer, like, that makes even more sense. I'm like, oh, this actually all worked out. But if you're amongst anyone else, like, that fall apart.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

But for metaphor, it's like, hey, we're not going to deal with that bullshit because we're trying to do so many other things that kind of matter more for what this story is. So I'm like, y'all made the right choice by not putting a romance.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I think if they did it for this game, then it would feel a bit forced.

[Barrett Courtney]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, I think Persona is somewhat of a. You can correct me.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I would say it's probably somewhat of a descendant of a game like Tokimeki Memorial, which is like dating sim in a school.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Barrett Courtney]

Like.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, it is when you went to the earlier question about the social stats.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Like, I feel like that stuff is way more at home at a game that takes place in a school. Right. That takes place in the modern day. You're attending class, you have these cute classmates that you want to talk to and get the relationship up and like, there's a bit more mystery in that. I think in that context, I do like the idea of, oh man, I'm, you know, pushing the needle on this, like to like, you know, get closer to this person, but I can't tell how close I am. But I want to romance them. But in like, there's an element of romance sim to that.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Right?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I think that's the purpose of that metaphor. Refantasio does not have like the elements of a romance sim. It has like the structures of a Persona. But I think they're taking that and trying to make it fit into a political fantasy rpg. And I think with that you have to cut some of the fat.

[Barrett Courtney]

Right.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

You have to cut off some of the things that, you know, maybe if Persona is this descendant of a Tokimeki Memorial type type of game metaphor for it not being that like, hey, how do we push this away from being what Persona is? That way Persona can still, still exist as Persona. Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I don't think distinct properties elsewhere.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

So yeah, I think it's the. One of the best, one of the smartest moves they did for this game.

[Barrett Courtney]

100 Simon Carty asks, oh, Cardi, which human would you want to kiss the most? I'd go for this one right on the egg. And it's the first human that you fight after you fight the. It's like the big egg one where you break open and there's all the little frogs inside. I mean like, does Louise count? Cuz I feel like that's my only answer. Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I was going to be like, I don't know, man. The elder.

[Barrett Courtney]

But even Louise, when he turns into a human looks up. It's crazy. But then I can still imagine of like. But he was hot.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I like the ear soldiers, little ears hopping. The big ears hopping around.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Give a little.

[Barrett Courtney]

Guys, that's crazy.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I mean.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I mean, what choice do we got? Yeah, it's between that and the egg.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Oh my God.

[Barrett Courtney]

Oh.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Oh, Simon Cardi, you sicko.

[Barrett Courtney]

God. Well, it was either this question or he was going to ask us what our favorite shape was. And then my last question I'm going to pull from here is from the nerd who asks, do you think the game needs a royal version?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Oh, I'm of them. I like I say I was talking about this, I think during the review, maybe during our metaphor versus Persona conversation that I want a royal version quote unquote, just so they can voice the social links. That's really all I want is this.

[Barrett Courtney]

For something we definitely got Spoiled with. With Persona 3 Reloaded, for sure.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

All those interactions were voiced. Yeah. That is.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That's like the only thing though, like, you could. You could not add a character. And I think the game's still perfect. You could add another character.

[Barrett Courtney]

I think that could still just be an update of like, eventually maybe down the line of like getting all of that voice acted. Because I think Atlas has been on the record of like, we're. They're going away from doing the whole like Persona 5 and then a Persona 5 Royal. They're like trying to focus a bit more on like, DLC stuff. We'll see how that actually works out if they actually stick with it. But at least from my understanding, it sounds like we probably won't get a royal version of metaphor. The only reason I would want it and someone else wrote in with this and a couple people wrote in with this is the. I personally think the weakest part of the main game. And it's because there's a lot of plot being thrown at you is the whole Mage Academy with Juna's older sisters. Like, that's a part of the twist that she was actually the one who like made the curse and like put the prince in the coma and all this stuff. And that section of the game feels so much like they wanted to put another dungeon in there, but they either didn't have the time or budget or like just wherewithal to like come up with like another dungeon to put there. Because it feels like like so much is being thrown at you in the span of like three hours.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

That I think if all of that was relegated over another seven hours while you're going through a dungeon and hitting specific beats, I think that stuff would have flowed way better because it was a lot of like, holy. Like, it's interesting drama, but like, I feel like we're going back and forth in so many moments.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. And Rella is such an interesting character who was like on the cusp of being one of the great characters. But like all of that happened very fast where she's like, haha. Actually it was me all along. And then you.

[Barrett Courtney]

I'm gonna help you.

[Michael P. Hyam]

At the end you have that flashback where it's like, well, Rella was like coerced into doing that. And then so there's. I feel like that is one area. There is.

[Barrett Courtney]

It's a whole ass dungeon arc that's given to you and they could create.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Like an, like a much better dungeon there. Like.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Yeah, that'd be cool.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Make the Mage Academy look Sick.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Because yeah, you go there, you fight and then you have to move on to the next thing. I'm like, okay, that's where I feel like there is might have been a gap because otherwise this feels like their most complete game. Right off the bat that I felt like the original P5 was a little rushed towards the end, even though that game was long as. Yeah, just like I feel like things got resolved a little too easily towards the end. Still loved. Of course, P3, obviously the original PS2 release had. And the portable had a lot of. A lot of issues and then reload kind of like solved a lot of that stuff. And then P4G coming out on Vita, being the Vita system seller, of course you would do that. But I don't know. I don't think metaphor would like a new metaphor would kind of push the needle in any way. But I do think like for us who love metaphor very deeply, that was like one area where like being nerd. Like what about the Mage Academy? You know what I'm saying? If you could do a whole another story after that. Hell yeah. I'm buying that shit again.

[Barrett Courtney]

Hell yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

What do you call it? Metaphor refantasio.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Royal would be great for it.

[Barrett Courtney]

It would be great. That's why I was thinking re. Metaphor Refant.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Hell yeah.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

That'd be actually pretty good. I like that.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah.

[Barrett Courtney]

Royal is actually perfect. Damn.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Page flip or Metaphor refantasio the next page.

[Michael P. Hyam]

The Snyder cut.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Fiction realized.

[Barrett Courtney]

All right, well, I think we're coming up pretty much on the end of it here. Before we close out anything else, one last thing that you want to shout out that really stood out to you that you want to get off your chest when it comes to the spoiling the story of Metaphor Rea Fantasy. You.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I. I guess I'll give you a moment to think. Bless.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Thank you.

[Michael P. Hyam]

I. So I. I guess when I finish this game and I like I had mentioned the. The final message that this game gives you about like, you know, carrying on and letting this piece of fiction be. Be strength. Let. Let. Let fantasy be strength in your life. I felt this tremendous weight off my shoulders. This year has been really, really tough for me. I think it's been one of the worst years of my life, personally, in many ways. Like, I'm having a great time doing things like this and finding success in other ways, but I think like, I've had a very tumultuous time in my personal life and it's been very hard to enjoy things because of that. And it's so many parts of my life have been affected by. By, you know, the very various things that have happened to me. But I think finishing metaphor was one of the first moments in. In recent days where I felt like this weight. I felt like a weight off of me. Like, the world looks so much bigger. Metaphor reminded me that there is such a big world out there that you can affect, that you can get involved in. There's so much more to life because I think the deeper and deeper that I fell into the pit of my personal life, I was. And I still. I'm still working on this, where I was just consumed by my personal life. I had felt. Fell into, like, the deepest, like, a very deep depression. And I. You know, I had a lot of. That came with a lot of problems that affected my professional life, affected my. My interactions with other people around me. And it, like, I was consumed in a way that was very. That people have told me was very uncharacteristic of me. And I'm like, what the is happening to me? Why can't I be back to who I used to be? And I'm still working on that. But when I finished metaphor, I'm like, huh? Like, there's so much more out there. There is a bigger world, and, you know, it's not going to solve my problems. But, like, not only is it sending this message about the power of fiction that I've always believed in, but it also gave me perspective that I can now take moving forward. And I try to remind myself that the message of metaphor being like, hey, look out to the world. There's so much more out there. Be part of this world, too, and.

[Barrett Courtney]

Take it one step at a time.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Yeah. Yeah. And that was like. That was one of the reasons why I was just, like, so touched by the game's message at the end is because for the first, like, I've been in therapy for a very long time, and that's been very helpful. And then so I talked to my. Talk to my therapist a lot about metaphor post embargo. You know, Atlas, don't hit up my. My therapist and ask any questions of whether or not I broke embargo on that. But yeah, it, like, these are key pieces of fiction that can give you perspective, even if it's not necessarily, like, the political message, but the journey and, you know, seeing another world and then applying that to your own world and looking at things differently. The Same way Persona 5 helped me forge friendships and. And connect with my family in new ways. Metaphor gives me a new perspective on the rest of the world. Even if, like, oh, I. My politics. I'm very confident in my politics and I've been very politically active too. So, like, that part of metaphor was like, okay, cool. That was. That was good. I enjoyed that and it made sense and they said the right things. But even after that, the broader message about having a broader perspective and embracing your. The bigger world out there was like, man, I almost forgot about that.

[Barrett Courtney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

And you reminded me that there is so much more out there and I will always remember that.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Hell yeah.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Blessing.

[Barrett Courtney]

You want to follow that up at all?

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

I got nothing. I was listening to Michael, so I forgot to think.

[Barrett Courtney]

So Higham does a very good job of making me tear up on content because he, he fucking knows how to hit things home. And talk about very deep and important themes in video games, especially Atlas games, which, you know, we could do for hours and hours and hours. But I'm going to cut us off here because we've already been here for a while. Thank you all so much for joining us for another kind of funny games cast today. Spoiling metaphor Refantagio if you're listening to this, months and months later, you finally beaten the game. You know, we always like to do, like, send us a little message just, just so we know that, like, you know, people are still coming back and listening to this. You can find me on Blue sky at Sad Boy Barrett. And I want you to send me the message, Greg likes oranges. And so I'll know also I'll know that you listened to this spoiler cast.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

You're gonna forget and you're gonna be like, what do people keep messaging?

[Barrett Courtney]

Why do people keep sending me Greg likes oranges 100? Thank you all so much for joining us. After this is a live kind of funny podcast that will be taking place of the gameplay stream Today. It's going to be a Thanksgiving feast with blessing. Joey, Mike and Nick. That's going to be a fun time.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

Random group of people wrap up the week.

[Barrett Courtney]

Remember that for the rest of the week. Starting tomorrow, we're off for Thanksgiving here in the US but until next time, it's been our pleasure to serve you peace.

[Blessing Adeoye Jr.]

We did it.

[Michael P. Hyam]

Did it. We made it. We did it.