Bonus Ep 2: The Order

Summary

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Kingdom of Fraud – Bonus Episode 2: “The Order”

Podcast: Kingdom of Fraud (iHeartPodcasts/NOVEL)
Host: Michelle McPhee
Date: July 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, host Michelle McPhee dives deep into the inner workings of "The Order," an insular polygamist sect in Utah. The conversation centers on two women, Amanda Grant and Priscilla Tucker, both ex-members, who courageously share stories of growing up—and ultimately escaping—a world defined by strict control, patriarchy, secrecy, and spiritual manipulation. The episode sheds light on the Order’s unique and often harrowing approach to family, faith, money, and obedience—with a particular focus on women’s experiences.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Revisiting the Home Turf: The Emotional Weight of Return

• Setting: Michelle, Amanda, and Priscilla drive through Salt Lake City neighborhoods familiar to members of the Order (00:10–01:38).
  • Both Amanda and Priscilla express anxiety and hesitation about being recognized ("As soon as they see us, then they're going to call everybody and all the businesses." – Amanda, 00:58).
  • Michelle reflects on the risk and emotional toll for the women returning to their past environment.

Childhood Indoctrination and “Memory Gems”

• Ritual Recitations: From preschool, girls like Amanda and Priscilla recite “memory gems” reinforcing unwavering loyalty and subjugation (02:22–04:09).
  • Amanda and Priscilla recite in unison:
    “It is my firm resolve and fixed purpose to give my all to the Lord. My time, my talents, and all that I am were ever expected to be…” (02:28)
  • Comparison is drawn to the Pledge of Allegiance—these mantras are daily, non-negotiable (04:11).

Gender Roles, Marriage, and the Subjugation of Women

• Early Indoctrination:
  • By age eight, girls’ Sunday school splits from boys’; focus shifts to marriage and subservience (04:25).
  • Amanda remembers lessons on “how to be the perfect wife,” including being “kind, submissive,” never jealous, and deferring completely to the husband (04:48–05:24).
  • Amanda’s frustration:
    “I'm going to light the building on fire.” (05:28)
• Spiritual Wives and Secret Marriages:
  • Only first wives have legal standing; subsequent “spiritual wives” are not recognized by law (05:42).
  • Amanda reveals that her own mother was a second wife, and she herself was lied to about her father’s identity (05:59–06:30).
  • Amanda’s mother:
    “I hate being the second wife. I hate being married to my sister's husband.” (06:30)

“Heavenly Direction” and Forced Marriage

• Explaining ‘Direction’:
  • Males claim “direction” or spiritual premonition to justify targeting girls for marriage (07:17–07:39).
  • Priscilla explains the process: men consult parents, then the group leader (“Brother Paul”), then the girl’s parents ("No holding hands… keep order standards… don't say yes yet," 07:39–08:09).
  • Women’s desires are dismissed—Amanda forced to “keep praying” if her “direction” didn’t align with expectations (08:35).
  • Amanda:
    “By 17, I knew who they wanted me to marry, and I knew it was my cousin. I was promised to a Kingston to keep that bloodline pure.” (08:35)

The Kingston Bloodline, Incest, and the Numbering System

• “Pure Bloodline” Myths:
  • Amanda details how focus on keeping the “Kingston bloodline” pure inspired internal marriages and incestuous unions (09:38).
  • According to Amanda, leader Ortel Kingston linked the family’s supposed “pure bloodline” directly to Christ.
• Numbering System’s Hierarchy:
  • Early leader Eldon started numbering members; later, Brother Paul turned this into a hierarchy—lower numbers meant eternal security for men (10:16–11:07).
  • Women do not get numbers and are considered “sealed” for eternity only if they marry “numbered” men.

Entrapment, Resistance, and Punishment

• Consequences of Defiance:
  • Attempts to refuse marriage or question authority often result in forced rehab or re-education (11:47–12:47).
  • Priscilla narrates being institutionalized after rejecting authority—mirroring the fate of her cousin Jenny Kingston (11:47–13:17).
  • “They had me, like, go through all of these questions, tears running down my face…” – Priscilla (12:19)
  • Girls deemed “too willful” are isolated, restricted, and cut off from each other.

Financial Control: The Order’s Businesses, Bank, and Economic Lives

• The Order’s Economic Empire:
  • The group operates unmarked businesses—for members only—completely integrated into the Utah landscape (14:30–15:49).
  • Amanda recalls being underage, unpaid labor at these businesses (14:30–14:44).
• Internal Bank and Credit System:
  • Instead of paychecks, members receive credit at “the Order bank,” usable only in Order-controlled enterprises (15:50–16:31).
  • Amanda describes pressure to spend exclusively within the Order—even “consecrating” (signing over) personal possessions (17:25–18:11).
  • Inventory forms are exhaustive—listing down to “two bobby pins.” (18:25)
• Withholding Money as Control:
  • Priscilla describes her sister being denied access to her own savings for a car:
    "We need that money because college is starting and there's a lot of people that need to buy their books for school." (20:07)
  • Priscilla and Amanda detail elaborate efforts forging paperwork to help each other extract small amounts of cash before escaping (21:15–21:50).

The Toll of Leaving: Trauma, Loss, and New Lives

• Psychological Warfare:
  • Leaving means risking—often losing—one’s family, support system, and entire social world (22:02, 24:04).
  • Amanda:
    “At this point, I was like, God hates women, or I did something wrong in heaven before I was born here…” (24:54)
  • Her “turning point”: a desperate prayer and a random Bible verse—“There will be false prophets among you.” (25:24)
• Isolation and Guilt:
  • The emotional pain of separation persists long after physical escape ("I was the second oldest, so it was like losing my babies." – Amanda, 26:35).

Healing, Advocacy, and Lawsuits

• Turning Hurt into Action:
  • Amanda channels her pain into activism for other ex-members; she is a named plaintiff in a 2022 civil suit alleging child labor, sexual violence, trafficking, incest abuse, and more (28:08).
  • With time, her anger has turned to passion:
    “Every time I'm using my voice, it feels like it's not just my voice, but my mother who never got to speak, my grandmother who died for the order…” (27:13)
• Legacy and Hope:
  • Priscilla is determined to raise her daughter with freedom and affection:
    “She can have feelings and express them, and she doesn’t feel the need to go cry in her room because I'm gonna get mad that she is sad…” (29:18)
• A Generation of Storytellers:
  • Priscilla credits Amanda for encouraging others to speak, despite generations of silence and fear ("They're still suffering… But knowing the suffering…they go back in the burning building…” – Amanda, 30:51).

Final Reflections: Jacob Kingston’s Legacy

• Aftermath:
  • Amanda considers Jacob Kingston a pawn shaped by his abusive upbringing, but still complicit—“Did Jacob do anything to not oppress these women, to fight for these children? No. So it’s hard to feel bad for someone who’s repeating the cycle. When I heard he went to jail, I was like, good, good. I don’t care. Get them all in jail.” (32:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (by Timestamp)

• On indoctrination:
  “It is my firm resolve and fixed purpose to give my all to the Lord…” – Amanda & Priscilla (02:28)
• On gender roles:
  “Make sure that the house is clean, that the food is ready for him, and you wait for him to tell you about his day. And if he wants to hear about yours, then you can tell him about yours.” – Amanda (05:24)
• On financial control:
  “I would go through the entire room down to the bobby pin, and write down everything.” – Amanda (18:25)
• On escape:
  “There will be false prophets among you.” – Amanda, quoting her Bible epiphany about leaving (25:24)
• On advocacy:
  “It empowers me. Every time I'm using my voice, it feels like it's not just my voice, but my mother who never got to speak, my grandmother who died for the order.” – Amanda (27:13)
• On collective action:
  “They're still suffering…knowing the suffering…they go back in the burning building. It’s not even a question. And they're bringing the water.” – Amanda (30:51)
• On Jacob Kingston:
  “So it's hard to feel bad for someone who's repeating the cycle. When I heard he went to jail, I was like, good, good. I don’t care. Get them all in jail.” – Amanda (32:19)

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Essential Timestamps

• 00:10–01:38: Arriving in the Order’s neighborhood, tension and memories
• 02:22–04:09: Reciting “memory gems”; indoctrination from childhood
• 04:48–05:24: Lessons on perfect wifehood, patriarchal obedience
• 05:59–06:30: Amanda’s mother tells the truth about being a second wife
• 07:17–08:09: “Having direction”—forced marriages explained
• 10:16–11:07: The numbering system and social/spiritual status
• 11:47–13:17: Story of being committed to a “rehab” as punishment for rebellion
• 14:30–15:49: Visiting the Order’s secretive business empire, forced labor
• 15:50–18:49: Order’s internal bank, financial control, and consequences
• 21:15–22:02: Smuggling money, planning escape
• 24:54–25:24: “God hates women”—Amanda’s existential crisis and decision to run
• 28:08: Lawsuit against the Order
• 29:18–30:11: Priscilla on raising her daughter differently
• 32:19: Amanda reflects on Jacob Kingston’s imprisonment

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Conclusion

This episode is an unflinching, deeply personal window into life inside the Order, focusing especially on the struggles of women under its control. Through vivid anecdotes, emotional testimony, and sharp critique, Amanda Grant and Priscilla Tucker chart a journey from indoctrination and trauma to defiance, escape, and ultimately, activism and hope. The episode pulls the curtain back on the true cost of secrecy and control—and celebrates the fierce, ongoing efforts to break the cycle and create something better for the next generation.

Transcript

[Michelle McPhee]

Novel.

[Amanda Grant]

Are we getting out?

[Michelle McPhee]

Yeah, you don't want to get out. You don't have to. No, you don't have to get out. Honestly, I don't want you guys to do anything. I'm sitting in a car at the side of the road in a Salt Lake City suburb. The area is unremarkable, but the women I'm traveling with are still uneasy. They don't want to get out of the car. Can I just jump out and take a picture though? You guys keep talking. I'm with one of my producers, Myron, and in the backseat are Amanda Grant and Priscilla Tucker, two women who left the Order. But right now, we're on the Order's turf. Amanda and Priscilla know people around here. They grew up with many of them ghosts of their past Order lives. And these people know them too.

[Amanda Grant]

As soon as they see us, then they're going to call everybody and all the businesses.

[Michelle McPhee]

Yeah, me with a microphone.

[Amanda Grant]

Not they will be on the lookout.

[Michelle McPhee]

Coming here must feel like a risk to them, but this place is core to their stories. We heard from Amanda and Priscilla in the main series, but while reporting on Jacob Kingston, I heard many other incredible stories, primarily from and about women in the Order. They are disconnected from Jacob's fraud, but the stories are so dramatic, we had to share some of them with you. So in this bonus episode, we're taking a deep dive into Amanda and Priscilla's life in this insular and infamous group.

[Amanda Grant]

Foreign.

[Michelle McPhee]

My name is Michelle McPhee, and from the teams at Novel and I Heart podcast, this is Kingdom of Fraud. Bonus episode two, the Order.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Oh, do you want us to recite our memory gems? Yes.

[Amanda Grant]

Okay, ready?

[Priscilla Tucker]

One, two, three.

[Amanda Grant]

It is my firm resolve and fixed

[Priscilla Tucker]

purpose to give my all to the Lord. My time, my talents, and all that I am were ever expected to be.

[Michelle McPhee]

Before we head out on the road, I meet with Amanda and Priscilla in a hotel room in Salt Lake city. Back in 2015, Jacob Kingston had given 17 year old Priscilla a job at Washakie Renewable Energy. He then tried to bring her into his house and into his life. He even bragged to her about his fraud. In the end, Jacob married Priscilla's sister Hannah as his third wife. Soon after that, Priscilla was done with the Order for good. And she wasn't alone. Amanda, her childhood friend, helped her escape. Amanda had left the Order a couple years before that in 2013. Now both women are in their late 20s and they live and work in Las Vegas. This trip back home to Utah is

[Priscilla Tucker]

a rarity to the establishment of Zion and the building up of the Kingdom of God upon this earth. True happiness is not found in doing what you want to do, but in learning to like to do the things you ought to do.

[Michelle McPhee]

If one thing is clear fear about Order members, it's that everything in their lives, and I mean everything, revolves around the sect of 10.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Because my heart is pure, I will

[Amanda Grant]

live my life, we say, as if

[Priscilla Tucker]

Jesus Christ were by my side.

[Michelle McPhee]

All of this pretty much starts at birth, or at least preschool, where kids like Amanda and Priscilla are made to recite these memory gems about Order principles.

[Amanda Grant]

It's crazy that I could go years without saying that and I could remember it.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Yeah, it just. You.

[Michelle McPhee]

How often did you have to say that? Every day.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Warning.

[Michelle McPhee]

So it's like the Pledge of Allegiance. Both Amanda and Priscilla say they were taught marriage and motherhood were the most important things they could do as women or girls. Priscilla remembers attending what sounds like Sunday

[Priscilla Tucker]

school when we're young. Until about seven years old, it would be boys and girls in the classes, and we're just learning about the Bible and the Order and. And whatever else. And then when we turn eight, they separate the boys and the girls, and we start to learn about marriage.

[Michelle McPhee]

Amanda remembers how these teachings made her feel when she was a teenager.

[Amanda Grant]

They even one day in church had a whole lesson on how to be the perfect wife. I remember I wanted to stomp out of the room. They would say that the true, pure, polygamous wife that God wants is someone who is not jealous, who is a good mother, who is kind, submissive. Like, the part that pissed me and my sisters off was, well, all of it. But there was a part that was like, when your husband gets home, make sure that the house is clean, that the food is ready for him, and you wait for him to tell you about his day. And if he wants to hear about yours, then you can tell him about yours.

[Michelle McPhee]

By the way, that's a 1950s good housekeeping story as well.

[Amanda Grant]

So stupid. Yeah. It made me so mad. I was like, I'm going to light the building on fire.

[Michelle McPhee]

Even if a girl gets married, it doesn't mean she's necessarily legally recognized as a wife.

[Amanda Grant]

This is such a, like, core part of Order, I guess history, right, is that the first wives are the only ones that keep the last name. The second wives are the ones that do not obviously get legally married because it's not legal to live polygamy. So they have these spiritual weddings.

[Michelle McPhee]

Both Priscilla and Amanda's mothers were second wives or spiritual wives for most of her life. Amanda didn't know her mother was just one of many of her father's wives and that her father's first wife was her mom's sister. She told us that she was actually lied to about the identity of her dad as a child. A fake name was written on her birth certificate. But later on, her mom fessed up.

[Amanda Grant]

I'm so grateful that she was honest with me because so many moms in the order are like, polygamy's so great. I love being married to my brother. And then the daughters will marry into it and be like, what the fuck? You lied to me. You know? But then it's too late. But my mom was like, I'm not gonna lie to you. I hate being the second wife. I hate being married to my sister's husband. She told me, though, that she had eyes for another person when she. She was a teenager. She was young. She had other things in mind. But. But my dad started to have direction on her.

[Michelle McPhee]

According to Amanda, her mother was just a child when her father started having direction on her. This isn't the first time I've heard this term having direction. So I asked Priscilla to explain what it means.

[Priscilla Tucker]

So a man will have a dream or a premonition or direction that he's supposed to marry a specific girl. He'll talk to his parents. If they say yes, he'll talk to Paul. So these men will make meetings with Paul.

[Michelle McPhee]

That would be Brother Paul, the current leader of the order. We've reached out to him for comment, but he never responded.

[Priscilla Tucker]

And then if Paul says, okay, yeah, go ahead and talk to her parents, they'll move on. And then the parents are the last, like, gatekeepers of, okay, yeah, you can talk to our daughter. And. And they would let multiple people go forward on you. Before you talk to the man, your parents would say, okay, like, hear him out. No holding hands. Remember, keep order standards. Don't say yes yet, because we don't know. We still need to have a meeting with Brother Paul.

[Michelle McPhee]

Amanda told us her mother didn't want to marry her father, but he told her he had heavenly direction on her.

[Amanda Grant]

So she reluctantly said yes. Had a wedding, a secret wedding in the living room.

[Michelle McPhee]

One important thing about having direction, Amanda says, is that these heavenly premonitions only seem to matter when men have them.

[Amanda Grant]

Here is the problem with any woman getting direction. Me, as someone who got quote, unquote, direction. If my direction was not the man they wanted, they would be like, keep praying. There was literally times where my dad was like, I don't know who you're supposed to marry, but I know it's not him. By the time I was 15, I was like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. I don't know how, but I'm gonna get the fuck out of here. And by 17, I knew who they wanted me to marry, and I knew it was my cousin. I was promised to a Kingston to keep that bloodline pure.

[Michelle McPhee]

The Order denies actively arranging marriages to protect that bloodline. They say the term often used in the media, pure Kingston blood is, quote, fringe, unfamiliar and somewhat offensive. But Amanda tells me that decades ago, Ortel Kingston, the second leader in the Order's history, began the push towards polygamy and incest within the group for this very reason.

[Amanda Grant]

As soon as, like Ortel's in power, it starts to become about religion. It starts to become about polygamy. It starts to become about the pure bloodline of Christ. And there was this belief that Kingston was a pure bloodline directly linked to Christ. And that's where we think that the incest even is inspired. Because why else are we trying so hard to keep that Kingston bloodline pure?

[Michelle McPhee]

The Kingston bloodline is not the only symbol of apparent status in the Order. There's also the numbering system. Amanda describes the numbering system as something that hearkens back to the Order's earliest days.

[Amanda Grant]

So Brother Eldon, right, he started the Order. He was number one. And the numbering system, there's different opinions on that numbering system. But what I've been hearing from older generations in the Order and out of the Order, they said that Eldon started the numbering system off just counting the members who joined the Order. It was just, oh, you're the fifth person to join the Order. When Paul comes into leadership, he realizes that people value the number like it's like gold. And that's when it became your number is your ticket to heaven.

[Michelle McPhee]

According to Amanda, it's the current leader, Brother Paul, who cultivated what is now a prevailing belief in the Order that the lower the man's number, the holier he's considered. Paul is number nine. And no, women get numbers to be clear.

[Amanda Grant]

That's why your number one choice is so important, because that is your indicator of if you're going to heaven or hell. So if you marry a numbered man, you're sealed.

[Michelle McPhee]

But what if a girl doesn't want to get married? Or perhaps not to the man who has direction on her? From what Priscilla and Amanda say, this is simply not tolerated. You heard back in episode five about Priscilla's many arduous attempts to leave the Order as a teenager, which she says ultimately led her to be committed to a rehab facility. The fact this happened didn't surprise her, though.

[Priscilla Tucker]

I knew exactly where I was going because my cousin Jenny disappeared a couple of months earlier. And a guy that was kind of dating her at the time followed her parents to figure out where they were hiding her and told me about this place.

[Michelle McPhee]

Jenny being Jenny Kingston. She told us she was in this facility for six months before she ultimately agreed to marry Jacob Jr. In the exact same facility as Priscilla.

[Priscilla Tucker]

When I got brought in there, they had me, like, go through all of these questions, tears running down my face, like, oh, are you suicidal? No. Are you depressed? No. Because I thought if I said no to everything, they would let me out.

[Michelle McPhee]

Priscilla was searched for drugs and her shoes were confiscated to stop her from running away. Then finally, she was brought into the main room with the other patients.

[Priscilla Tucker]

And they asked me, do you recognize anybody here? So I look around and I see my cousin. I'm like, yeah. And I was excited because I wasn't going to be alone in there. And they're like, you're not allowed to talk to her. Look at her. Nothing with her.

[Michelle McPhee]

Both Priscilla and Jenny say they were sent there for being too willful, for speaking their minds, for wanting each other agency over their own lives. But this wasn't all that was keeping them in the Order's grip. After the break, we dive into the mysterious Order bank and how important money is for Order members. It represents status, power, and most importantly, control. We pulled into this parking lot where there's a. I mean, I've never seen anything like this. It's allegedly a supermarket, but it's like an unmarked supermarket. It looks like a warehouse. Back on the road in Salt Lake City, we pulled over to talk outside an Order business where Amanda used to work. When I say nondescript, you probably wouldn't look at it twice, but that's part of the Order's mo. Members blend in. There's nothing about them that screams polygamy.

[Amanda Grant]

So all of the workers in there are going to be Order members. And this is where I worked. Underage. I was 15. Was it 15 or 16? But still at that time, I was. I don't think I was getting paid either.

[Michelle McPhee]

So just walk in there and buy something.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Yeah.

[Michelle McPhee]

This blending in means the Order members successfully run businesses that are integrated with the outside world. Reports from the 1990s suggest the order was worth $170 million. In 2011, Rolling Stone reported the order had amassed an estimated 300 million today. Who knows? Back in the car, Amanda and Priscilla are jumpy as I step out to see the unmarked supermarket.

[Amanda Grant]

Leave the key in case we have to run.

[Priscilla Tucker]

I'm gonna leave the car running and

[Michelle McPhee]

I'll just meet you somewhere else if you feel weird. Yeah, tell us how to do somewhere else if you need to.

[Priscilla Tucker]

I'm glad she parked here instead of right there because we are going to see Order members come around here.

[Michelle McPhee]

Walking into the store was a strange experience. Amanda explains that outsiders don't do their grocery shopping here.

[Amanda Grant]

It's more for their members.

[Michelle McPhee]

It was clearly for their members. Clearly. And as soon as I walked in, everybody's head turned to me.

[Amanda Grant]

Yeah, they're like, who are you?

[Michelle McPhee]

And I didn't even know what to buy. And so I bought us a bag of nerd cluster candies. Amanda says Order members don't always get a paycheck. Instead, there's an internal credit system. You work and the credit is added to your internal account at the so called bank. The credit can then be redeemed at other order stores or businesses. Amanda says that spending US Dollars in outsider companies isn't forbidden.

[Amanda Grant]

But all of my incomings and outgoings need to be in the name of the Lord. If the Order doesn't have it, we don't need it. So we were shopping at Walmart and other places and they're like, no, no. You need to be recycling that money into an order business.

[Michelle McPhee]

As a teenager, Amanda says she worked in the strange supermarket and other order linked businesses. She's one of many former Order members who say that within the group, members are viewed as cheap and often underage labor. The Order strongly denies this. Despite the hard work, many members are poor, earning low wages and and often supporting dozens of children. What I see in the aisles of this supermarket suggests many families are struggling to make ends meet. Bulk items of food, they always have bulk oats, bulk oats, tons of bulk

[Amanda Grant]

oats, bulk honey, because those are the staples of the orders. Bulk, bulk oats, bulk honey. My mom would always go and get buckets.

[Michelle McPhee]

Why?

[Amanda Grant]

Because you have 10 plus kids, right? And it's cheaper to just buy it in bulk.

[Michelle McPhee]

And then there's consecration or giving your all to the Lord. The Order encourages its members to live by the law of consecration, committing their resources to the church, from properties and savings all the way down to personal possessions. For order members, it's part of what makes them more faithful than mainstream Mormons.

[Amanda Grant]

They would make fun of. They would say, well, the Mormon church only does 10%. We give our all to the Lord. That's how dedicated we are to keep

[Michelle McPhee]

track of all this. Amanda explains that members fill out inventory forms. They list anything of value they have and sign it over to the order. What's your first memory of writing one of those forms?

[Amanda Grant]

I remember asking my dad, like, is my guitar of value? Cause that was probably the biggest value I had. And it was like, $400. And he's like, yep, write it down.

[Michelle McPhee]

Amanda then tells me a story about one of Jacob Kingston's half sisters.

[Amanda Grant]

She told me that she hated doing inventory forms because they would have to go through the entire room down to the bobby pin, and write down everything. So it was family by family. Some people were super serious about it. Like, I have two bobby pins. I have this. And she would start throwing stuff in the garbage so she wouldn't have to write it down because they were so, like, honest about what's God's and not theirs.

[Michelle McPhee]

The order says, quote, we believe consecration to be the voluntary dedication of all the resources a person has to a cause to which they are fully converted. And they add, members are, quote, free to enjoy and share the fruits of their labors. But just how free are we talking? Priscilla then tells me more about the order bank.

[Priscilla Tucker]

So the order has its own banking system. When I was in there, it was just, you had to go into their actual physical building, and you would go there and say, hey, I need to access $20. They could send that authorization number to the grocery store or wherever, and you were able to buy stuff. But if you were getting cash, they were very much like, why do you need it? Because they wanted you to spend all of your money in the order.

[Michelle McPhee]

The order says that they maintain member accounts for record keeping and as a means for internal exchange. Priscilla remembers one instance when her sister had saved up for a car. Once she finally had enough, she requested the money from the order bank. Priscilla says when her sister went in to collect the cash, the bank teller

[Priscilla Tucker]

told her, I can't give you that money. And she's like, why? I added it on. And she's like, yeah, but we need that money because college is starting and there's a lot of people that need to buy their books for school. So they would basically say, you can't have your money right now. We have other more important things to spend your money on.

[Michelle McPhee]

The order's spokesperson told us he isn't aware of, quote, any time when an authorized adult was not able to access their funds and that kids need permission from adults to access Their money. Now I have to see this bank. Once we leave the supermarket, Amanda and Priscilla guide me to the building, which doesn't look anything like a financial institution, nor do I see any security. Just like the supermarket. There's no signage.

[Amanda Grant]

Yeah, I worked right past those doors. This is where I would give Priscilla her money.

[Priscilla Tucker]

I would slowly get it out for her, right? I would show her a text from my mom on my phone, and then she'd be like, okay, sounds good, and then write a fake authorization number.

[Michelle McPhee]

During Amanda and Priscilla's final months in the order, they were busy planning their escapes. Amanda would go first, but before she took off, she'd help Priscilla, too. Because Priscilla was a minor, she needed permission from a parent to withdraw money she'd earned at work unless she had a friend who worked at the bank, like Amanda.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Amanda was about to leave. So she was like, I'll get whatever you need, whatever I can.

[Amanda Grant]

I was like, I'm taking as much as I can.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Yeah.

[Amanda Grant]

So I could only take 500 out a day. So I was. After I would get you guys your stuff, I would take the rest, and I would get fake authorizations, and I only got 2000 out and then left.

[Michelle McPhee]

When people leave the order, they often leave with nothing. Amanda and Priscilla forged new lives for themselves with the little bit of cash they were able to withdraw without arousing too much suspicion. But as hard as it is to leave, life after the order can be even harder. First, there's the isolation, leaving everyone you know and love, friends, family, behind. And then there's the threat of eternal damnation that have been drilled into their heads since they were little kids. If you can manage all that, what's left? That's after the break. What's so funny about Utah? There's so much darkness that you guys are talking about, and it's such a beautiful place.

[Amanda Grant]

I know.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Turn left into here. It looks so different. What the hell is this?

[Amanda Grant]

It.

[Michelle McPhee]

It's been an emotional day for Amanda and Priscilla, visiting homes where they lived, places they worked. Amanda is clearly on edge.

[Amanda Grant]

I started getting a lot of anxiety just because, like, the most trauma I've ever experienced was in the Order. And the last time I was feeling the most defenseless, and I was defenseless and helpless was in the order. Like, I had no free will. And so being there was bringing up, like. Like, even though I know I'm free, I know what those people have done. I know what they're guilty of. I know it's not just tax fraud.

[Michelle McPhee]

These two women have made new Lives for themselves in Las Vegas, starting from scratch after leaving their families with practically nothing. So being back here in Utah, Priscilla says, is hard.

[Priscilla Tucker]

Definitely. Every single time I am in Utah, a lot of feelings come up. And I think that when I'm living my life in Las Vegas, then it's just normal. I'm just living my life. But every time we return to this place, we just have conversations of being in the Order and leaving and all of that. It definitely does bring up a lot of feelings of it sucks that my family is still here, I guess, because I would love to see them and I would love to connect with them on a deeper level, but I feel like that's just not possible where they're at.

[Michelle McPhee]

Growing up in the Order was clearly difficult for Amanda and Priscilla, and by the sounds of it, for most girls. So I want to know, was there ever a final straw moment for Amanda?

[Amanda Grant]

It was so hard to be a woman in there because no one listened to me. If a man said it, that trumped my opinions and anything that I actually did, even if people saw it, if a man said something else happened, that's what happened. What finally sparked, like, knowing I was going to leave, was thinking of having kids there, having daughters there. At this point, I was like, God hates women, or I did something wrong in heaven before I was born here, that I'm suffering and being punished because whatever I did in heaven, and I'm repenting for it in this life. So I ran away one day and like, to preface, I don't know, I'm not going to say this was God or the Holy Ghost or whatever. I'm just going to tell you what happened. I ran away with my Bible and I'm like, bawling, desperate, praying to God, like, God, if the order is true, just tell me, like, give me some sign. Because it feels so wrong. If it's right, why does it feel so wrong? Give me a sign and I will live polygamy, I'll marry my cousin. I'll do all the things they're telling me to do. But I need an answer from you. Not from Paul, not from my dad. And no shit, after I'm crying, like, snot dripping out of my nose, praying, I. I open the Bible to a random page, and the first words I read are, there will be false prophets among you. I was like, what? So that was. I started crying, like, happy tears, like, that's my answer. That's all I needed. That is all I needed. I don't know how I'm going to get out, but I'm going to leave.

[Michelle McPhee]

The problem was Amanda says her mother told her she would cut her off from her brothers and sisters.

[Amanda Grant]

I think a lot of people think, especially outsiders, like, so you got out, so. So you win and you're happy. But I didn't know if I was going to see my family again. So I was like saying goodbye. And part of me was feeling so guilty, like, I can't protect them anymore. I was the second oldest, so it was like losing my babies. So that hurts so bad to know, like, I can't protect them anymore. And I did get people being like, why did you leave me? Why didn't you take me with you?

[Michelle McPhee]

Amanda and Priscilla have always been fighters. Now on the outside, they have a voice and social media people be like,

[Amanda Grant]

how are you so passionate to, like, leave the order and speak out? Honestly, in the beginning, it was hate. I was so angry at Paul. So my drive was, I'm gonna burn this place to the ground because I didn't know how to love. Now that it's been like 11 years, it's its passion for, like, these girls deserve a better life. I see myself in them and I want so badly for them to have these options. That's why I chose to dedicate my time to this. This is my full time job for a reason. It's empowering these other people. It empowers me. Every time I'm using my voice, it feels like it's not just my voice, but my mother who never got to speak, my grandmother who died for the order. But later I heard stories of her, like, silently fighting, like, these are the voices of generations of women finally, like, we're going to be speaking together.

[Michelle McPhee]

Amanda has also taken matters to court. In September 2022, Amanda, Jenny and eight other plaintiffs filed a civil suit against the order, its church, multiple businesses, and even individual members. The suit alleges unpaid work, child labor, sexual violence, human trafficking, incest abuse, and other charges. As I record this, the suit is still ongoing in the federal court system. When we asked the order for comment about the lawsuit, they denied all the allegations, saying the order is, quote, not any more immune to preposterous claims than any other organization. They add, quote, the civil lawsuit reads more like the script to a sensationalized TV production than a lawsuit. Priscilla isn't involved in this lawsuit. She has been focusing on her young daughter. She wants her little girl to experience a totally different kind of childhood than her own.

[Priscilla Tucker]

I am just so proud and happy that my daughter, can one see somebody being strong and Standing up for themselves, finally. And two, I love that she can have feelings and express them, and she doesn't feel the need to go cry in her room because I'm gonna get mad that she is sad and she's so emotionally aware. I'll have these conversations with her where she'll be like, why don't you see your mom? And I'll just tell her, oh, well, my mom's not very nice. Her response was, it's okay because you have me and I'm nice to you and you're nice to me. And I just love that because she's never, like, known where. She just is scared of me, and I love that.

[Michelle McPhee]

Priscilla credits Amanda with a lot of the scrutiny that's been brought onto the Order in recent years. Priscilla says Amanda has been encouraging other women and men to tell their own stories about the Order for such a long time.

[Priscilla Tucker]

They've been just intimidating everybody, and we've been so scared to speak out. Like, there's a whole generation that left before us that have never shared their stories. And I honestly credit Amanda a lot because she has been telling people stories, and they're like, I want to tell my story.

[Michelle McPhee]

But Amanda says all of this is a collective effort.

[Amanda Grant]

So many of us, like Priscilla over there, all of the women who left the burning fire, see the end of the tunnel, choose to go back with I'm going to cry buckets of water to. They're still trying to heal, but they choose to go back in the burning fire. And that's how I see all these women. They're still suffering. They have the choice to go be free and heal. But knowing the suffering of these children and women and family, they go back in the burning building. It's not even a question. And they're bringing the water.

[Michelle McPhee]

The sun is slowly sinking behind the mountains at the edges of Salt Lake City. In the hotel room, we wind our way back to the topic that brought us all here in the first place. Jacob Kingston. Jacob is at the center of the story I wanted to tell about corruption, fraud, and his relationship with the Lion. But in the multi generational and epic history of the Order, Jacob Kingston is merely a footnote. I ask Amanda what she thinks about Jacob now that he's behind bars.

[Amanda Grant]

I think Jacob was just a pawn in the game, and Jacob was so excited to be a part of it. I do believe that Jacob came from a very abusive household. But from the stories I've heard because my aunt was engaged to him, that abusiveness made him an asshole, too. A lot of Daniel's boys. I don't know how Daniel makes them this way, but it's like they're all competing for Daddy's love. And so, like, part of me wants to feel bad for Jacob, but another part of me is like, did Jacob do anything to not oppress these women, to fight for these children? No. So it's hard to feel bad for someone who's repeating the cycle. When I heard he went to jail, I was like, good, good. I don't care. Get them all in jail.

[Michelle McPhee]

Kingdom of Fraud is produced by novel for iHeart podcasts. For more from Novel, visit Novel Audio. The show is hosted by me, Michelle McPhee and produced by Jake Otajevic. It's reported by me and Jake Otajevic. This episode was produced by Megan Dean with additional production from Myron Caplan. Amalia Sortland is our assistant producer. Our editor is Sandra Shmueli. Production management from Cherie Houston, Joe Savage and Charlotte Wolf. Our fact checker is Fendal Fulton. Sound design and mixing by Mark Pittam. Original music composed and performed by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision from Jake Otajevic, Sandra Shmueli and Max o'. Brien. Willard Foxton is creative director at Novel. Our executive producers are me, Michelle McPhee, Max O' Brien and Craig Craig Strachan. The novel and Stephanie Lang. Katrina Norbel and Nikki Etor are the executive producers for IHear podcasts and the marketing lead is Allison Kanter. Special thanks to Carrie Lieberman, Will Pearson and the whole team at wme.