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- [00:00]
Adrian
Part two of the exclusive Ralph Grossel interview, where Adrian sits down with him and picks his brains on all things Brainchild and what may or may not come to kiteboarding over the next few years. It really is a glimpse into the future, but it wouldn't be right to leave out some Andrea news and gossip for more than a week. So we discuss all the implications of him moving to RRD and how that's going to change the competitive landscape of kiteboarding. Also.
- [00:30]
Interviewer/Host
Catastrophic Clickman fighting.
- [00:32]
Ralph Grossel
Going for the boogaloo double just to get the landed.
- [00:35]
Roberto Ricci
Oh, had a couple of strings and it was extremely dangerous.
- [00:39]
Adrian
Guys, I found the trap and it
- [00:41]
Ralph Grossel
is gold for Ellie Aldridge and gold for Great Britain.
- [00:48]
Adrian
I mean, I know we've already done a big episode, multiple episodes now on Andrea leaving and Andrea's move to rrd. But one thing we missed last week was how genius is that video that he did, the gangster mob style video. It's so good. I love it. I love it.
- [01:10]
Interviewer/Host
By the way, to all the people messaging me about the kite he's riding in those videos. That's not the kite he's going to be competing on, that's for sure. No, but interestingly, that kite that he is writing is in Heel Speaks. You know, go check that out. I mean, heel doubles that kite and about 19 knots. Okay. It's not a big double, but it is kind of crazy. And he comes off the beach and he's actually kind of shocked how quick that kite is. Adrien Low looks great on that kite. I don't know if you saw he did that very, very low leap. Late back board off on a. On short lines, 10m lines. I think so. I mean, that kite does have some pedigree.
- [01:45]
Adrian
What was so funny on that day where the footage started leaking? It was on a lady's Close Friends story and I misbehaved and got someone to screen record it and then send it to me. And that's not cool. So I just want to. I know I'm laughing, but I am actually. I do regret that. I do regret that that was not professional, foolish and just a bit shit.
- [02:20]
Interviewer/Host
It's okay, man. It's okay. I mean, that's part of your job, right, is to find the stories. But I think one of the good things is we have the side of the writers, you know, we're not. We're not digging through the. Digging through the trash for the worst stories that we can find. If you want to hear that, come to the members pod because we do a little bit on the Members pod, which is which we. We really look through the trash.
- [02:40]
Adrian
Let's bring it back to Andrea. I can't wait to see him dress head to toe in orange. RRD orange. And I really hope they rock the. Because they used to do zebra print, I think zebra print. And Andrea's hair. That's going to look unbelievable. I'm just on the RD website at the moment. There's a biker jacket on there for 280 quid. There are T shirts for £90.
- [03:05]
Interviewer/Host
Very. It's a very Italian cut. Very, very, very slim.
- [03:09]
Adrian
This is incredibly slim. I'm not sure it's quite to my. It's not. No. I don't think he'll bring out the best of me, Adrian. But yeah, I can't wait to see all this shit. The big question, of course is Andrea's career so far. He's always been on the best kite. He started on the Joh Tone Rebel, which Lorenzo won King of the Air on. Then he went to the Duotone Evo D lab and Andrea won everything there was to win on that. And he stayed on that until he went back to the Rebel at the first Alula Rebel, which then became the Blue Lula Rebel, which is the cheaper Alula from Duo Turn. Same price, but not as good Alula. And now he's going to be on a completely unproven kite. And it's interesting times, isn't it Adrian? But you're so right. Whatever he was on in those videos and everyone's like, that's not looking good. One, it's not looking windy. And two, that will not be. That will not be what he's going to end up on.
- [04:26]
Interviewer/Host
I wonder if he'll do like a welcome to the Team video, which is kind of like. Know a lot of riders like to do that. Welcome to the team and. And it's kind of cool to do. I wonder what kite he'll do and what. And how he'll approach it. Well, they will they give him the creative freedom to do that. Because I would like to see an extension of that sort of mobster, you know, the. The gangster style, the Italian sort of darkness. And we're seeing a new side of Andrea with his creativity. I mean that for sure. That was his idea. It wasn't Loris's.
- [04:57]
Adrian
I'm not sure. I think Loris the videographer is really good and I think. Yeah, but you're right, you're right. I think Andre has always been creative. That's what makes a good kite border a great one. It's the same with Aaron Hadlow. It's his innovation that got him his name where he is. Same with Tom Bridge. If Tom Bridge just did the same shit as everyone else, no one would have cared. He came in, did new stuff. Same with Ayrton Cozolino, Andrea's good friend. So, yeah, exciting times, exciting times.
- [05:36]
Interviewer/Host
But it's also time for a change. You know, you and I have been speaking to a lot of people in the industry and people who run events, they're getting bored of the status quo. The same people on the podiums, the same. And I mean, let's be honest, if there's not change and people don't do things differently, I hope that Big Air kiteboarding doesn't get stale and doesn't get stale quickly, because that's the same thing that happened to freestyle become sort of unwatchable. And we are starting to see the first cracks. The one thing that Big Air has on its side is it has youth development, it has young people coming in and filling up on men's and women's. That is the only thing that can save it at the moment. But there definitely needs to be a crack at the top. Someone else needs to stick their hand in it and it needs to change. Because if he doesn't get the kite, it's just going to be a Casadi fest mixed in with the Lando and Overbeat wins. But it will be Lorenzo having his wicked way, and I can see that. And that's not an attack on Lorenzo because he deserves everything he's going to get because he's so focused, he wants it, he's so dedicated and he has so much talent.
- [06:47]
Adrian
It's almost embarrassing, I think, for Lorenzo as well. Obviously, we're about to hear from Ralph, which will be the second part of the Ralph Grossel interview. I think if you're wanting to be at the very top of competitive kiteboarding, which we're not sure if Andrea really wants to be there, maybe he wants to have an impact in other ways. In video, in Trek innovation, we don't know. But I think Lorenzo, whose desire is obvious, is to win these competitions. His kite is made in the right factory. He is going to be getting access to materials that, like in Mykonos, no one had ever flown in a kite before that was brand new to kiteboarding. And he's on it.
- [07:38]
Interviewer/Host
I can't remember if it's Ralph talk about it last week, what's coming up on this week, but I saw a material flawn well, after everyone had left in Mykonos and you're going to hear Ralph Ralph's reaction to that material soon. I looked into the sky. It looked like the leading edge was made of aluminum. It was pure silver. And I looked up at it and I was like, whoa. Super interesting. I guess the first time we're going to see Andrea compete will be the Megaloop, which actually is an event that he could do well at because it's a single trick. It's really taking a lot of variety out. Well, the variety is gone, by the way. Just a huge low loop done crazy high can win that event. So this mega loop is the first time we're going to get to see Andrea on his new gear. Maybe not the finished article, but maybe the first couple of prototypes or the first development run. You never know, dude. He could turn up and win that event easily. Hey, guys, before we get into part two of the Ralph Groel exclusive, I've got an awesome interview coming up this Monday with Andrea's boss, Roberto Ricci. I thought I'd play a little bit now to wet the whistle. And the full interview will be available this Monday.
- [08:48]
Roberto Ricci
And we were really believing in this sport from the very beginning. We signed up with Martin Vari. Five years later, we won two championships with him in freestyle. We were always up in the ladder. And then obviously, when. What happens when finance, the private equities come into the play, they invest impossible budget for smaller brands. The ecosystem of Kyborn just gets destroyed. And that's why we couldn't compete neither with north, neither with Borza, Moore, Duotron, namely. And we just let it go. You know, we just say, hey, guys, you do whatever. And then you see the result. What is up now? These companies are losing money like crazy, and they don't represent, you know, a friendly and a healthy ecosystem. They destroyed the market. So we are here to reconstruct the market together with the comp, with the figures that love cardboarding, with the figures that actually want to do good things, good products. Because in the end, Adrian, our environment is super small. We are a micro niche. A micro niche, and we keep forgetting about that. And it's all about shapers and sail designers, which evolve into foil designers, and these guys evolve into kite designers and wing designers. But it's the same approach.
- [10:17]
Interviewer/Host
You can hear the full interview with Roberto Ricci coming out this Monday. But let's get back to part two of the Ralph Grossel exclusive. In Mykonos, I saw Baptiste on a kite, and the leading edge looked like it was made of aluminum. This is, I mean, Literally, when you look at it, it's like, is that a metal kite? I mean, it's. I don't know if that's a new material or that's a color scheme. What am I seeing there, huh?
- [10:43]
Ralph Grossel
So, first of all, you were not supposed to see it.
- [10:46]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, we can. We can take this part out if you want. I just thought I'd have to ask you, because, look, it's so striking in the air, in that evening light and Mykonos, that it's. It's literally like the kind of thing you sort of glance at, but you, like, do a double take. You're like, what? What am I looking at? It's so crazy.
- [11:03]
Ralph Grossel
Yeah, you're looking at something, which is absolutely crazy. But this is, as far as I can tell, and. Or I'm willing to tell. I mean, this is something. Let's put it this way. You have seen something we are able to create in house. We are able to learn from this kind of ideas. We can learn from it in a sense of. We are exploring and pushing the boundaries extremely hard to all different directions. And I'm not sure if this kind of material will ever make it to the market, but we have gained very, very interesting results from it. For example, we learned that parts of the constructions are failing. We would never, ever expect to fail because the material is so rigid that things are failing. You would not even consider to be failed. I mean, this kind of material is like four to five times stronger than anything I have ever seen before. But, I mean, it's. It's. It's. It's an approach, as I said, you know, like flight characteristics of. Of a wing or of a kite are very different. And what, for example, works on a kite, not necessarily works on a wing, and the other way around. So it's all about understanding the requirements of what we are doing. And, yeah, sometimes we even have to put these kites under the sunlight and. Yeah. But, yeah, it was not intended to be recognized by you, by the way.
- [12:52]
Interviewer/Host
It was after most of the writers had gone, you know, so let's let
- [12:56]
Ralph Grossel
me put it that way.
- [12:57]
Interviewer/Host
You know, in developing materials. I guess the ultimate thing is that it actually opens up many other industries because let's be honest, man, the money is in camping and backpacking and clothes and, you know, anything opposed to kiteboarding. Are you creating materials that if you cannot or they don't work in. In wind sports, that you will look to reproduce them for other industries? Kind of like Alula. Kind of like what Alula did? I should Say.
- [13:23]
Ralph Grossel
Yeah, the other way around. Yeah, Exactly. Like generally 100%. I mean, Alula was never intended to work in a kite in first place. It has been used for insulating parts of airplanes as far as I understood. But we do the exactly opposite. So we do custom material. So we look into what I think from the designer's point of view think is needed in order of stability, bias, elongation, stiffness, rebound, bound rebound and so on to create something really extraordinary. And yeah, it's. Then there's two different approach. One approach is to develop the materials hand in hand with the supplier. And the other idea is to actually do it in house. And as long as there's always a win win situation with our suppliers or with the infrastructure we are operating, there are huge opportunities to also of course take the knowledge and then purposely create materials for other industries. Yeah, that's definitely our, our goal.
- [14:41]
Interviewer/Host
You know, you got these two entities, the lab, which is innovation, the factory, which is duplication. When you innovate something and then take it over the factory, could it potentially not work in the factory? And that means it has to go back and be innovated again. Is it sort of, does it work cyclical like that?
- [14:57]
Ralph Grossel
No, no, it's, it's not the way it works. So the reason why we have so much space in the lab is that we run always small production runs. For example, now we are going to introduce wings and where we also have innovated new canopy material for the very first time. So we have now we are in progress of bringing this to the market. And this has been manufactured on a smaller scale on the left side and only if it works on the left side, let's say in the ratio 1 to 10, then the knowledge is transferred to the manufacturing, to the duplication, because it always requires change of machinery, for example, and normally manufacturing means never change a running system. So for example, never try to adjust a sewing machine with a different yarn. It's always better to buy another machine and equip that machine with a different yarn thickness or type than actually trying to change a machine. Because you have so many different variables that you always try not to change anything. And that is basically how it works. So it's, it's, it. If it would go back from manufacturing and let's say manufacturing would fail to manufacture, then we would have done pretty bad job on the left side.
- [16:20]
Interviewer/Host
You know, most people, Ralph, they talk about quality versus quantity. I think with you it's quality and quantity at the same level, right? Because you have arguably set up the system where you innovate it, you test it, you prove it and then you duplicate it in your factory. I mean you're really winning on both parts because you know, historically it was either you had quality or you had quantity. But I kind of feel like you are, they're both equal now with you.
- [16:47]
Ralph Grossel
Well, right now it is, yeah. It has not been the case in the last, let's say three years. When we started from the idea to then starting duplication in the lab, we, we had to overcome a lot of problems which I haven't encountered in first place. Like I, I mean I AM Being since 27 years, I'm in the kite surfing industry and I have been involved in setting up the, the biggest manufacturing plants on the planet. But still, even with that knowledge captured, we, we had problems I have never seen before. And classical Murphy's Law, everything what can go wrong will go wrong. Of course, we have also increased grade of complexity by adding new components, new material, new material combinations. So we had to learn our lessons what is working and what not. And unfortunately, for example, we had problems with the bladders in the very beginning. But now everything has changed or has changed because the manufacturing, as I said, is duplication only and never changing running system. So whatever we have been finding, what, whatever we learned, the knowledge we gained over the last years results into the setup we see at the manufacturing side. And over there we are focusing on quality and of course also on volume. It's clear, because manufacturing works and is profitable only if you have the right balance and ratio between output and quality. And with these different type of people, with the approach from automotive, with a completely different mindset, with also other ideas we are going to introduce to the market very soon, like user experience for the end consumer and so on. We have I think a very unique setup. And I think from here onwards the next generation of products coming or manufactured within brainchild manufacturing is definitely on the next level in comparison to the products we have been producing before.
- [19:09]
Interviewer/Host
You know, you said 27 years in the industry, you know, you set up some of the biggest factories. How's technology changed over those years, Ralph? Is it, is it still the sewing machine? I know that plays a big part. You guys have bought in different types of screen printing. Has technology changed a lot in kite manufacturing?
- [19:28]
Ralph Grossel
That's a very good question. And it always depends on like what you are, what are you expecting? You know, like what, like how big is a change? I mean for us, absolutely, from the brainchild perspective, having the proweld technology, like welding the leading Edge segments together is completely different to a normal method sewing method, because not only is the method different itself, it also creates a different product. And that is a massive change then coming from screen printing, from yarn dyed fabrics, like colorized fabrics, which is then screen printed, to white materials digitally printed. That's also a huge step up. It's nothing which we invented. I mean, digital printing is there for, for many, many years, but no one ever figured out how to do it on a production scale for the materials we are dealing with, which is very, very thin polyester fabrics. So, like I see it, the level of innovation we put together at Brainchild is definitely outperforming the innovation elsewhere. But yeah, that's how, at least this is how I see it. Maybe others would not agree on, but for me, it's the starting point then to look into the laminates. Because the laminates is something which has changed the kite industry recently extremely, extremely, like full stop. And now I think the next phase of laminates is that you have customized laminates so that you are not using a backpack material, for example, and then put it into a leading edge that you just really start developing a fiber and a laminate which is purpose driven. I think this is the next big step.
- [21:31]
Interviewer/Host
The speed of innovation has changed a lot now, right over the years. I mean, before you had to send stuff away to China to get built. Now you've got everything at your doorstep that also just must add to the fun it does.
- [21:42]
Ralph Grossel
And of course, speed of innovation is key. Speed in general is a key. You know, I mean, we just have to look to China and the phrase China speed is, from a European point of view, very difficult, let's put it this way, because they are able to have an infrastructure allowing them to, to create manufacture way, way faster than anybody else in the world. And of course, you know, it's all about the infrastructure. It's always about having the ability to say on a Monday, hey, this is a material combination I would like to try, please create me that material, which is then cut it, print, and ultimately creates a new product. And if I push it just a little bit, then I can have a completely new material developed. Not developed, but basically manufactured, because development is something else. But manufactured and then put into a kite within four to five working days. And if I have an existing material available, then the turnaround time for a prototype right now is two days.
- [23:06]
Interviewer/Host
And are these coming out of a wave?
- [23:08]
Ralph Grossel
No, we are not working with weaving looms because that is a completely next level. So weaving yarn itself would require a Completely different setup and it's not really necessary because the weave and especially the yarn, there are not many yarn suppliers in the world. So technically most of the big players are purchasing the raw material from the same entity, to be fair.
- [23:37]
Adrian
Yeah.
- [23:37]
Ralph Grossel
Which, which is a good thing. You know, it's a good thing because quality is like on the highest level and the weave is a major part. But as I said, like right now we will in general and also in the future we will always have components, we will always have materials just being delivered to us from our suppliers. This will never change because sometimes it just doesn't make sense. We have very, very good partnership with Porsche in France for example, or with Challenger in, in the US and there will be always components or materials, let's call it materials, where there's absolutely no need of being changed because our infrastructure is also set it up for this. Like we have a set up for these materials. But on the other side there will be definite categories and products where the customized materials will be key for the success of the product itself. So it's not everything never is black or white. So in the end what we try to achieve is the gray in between and to really being in the position to make a decision and say like, okay, that raw material on the left hand side costs us whatever X amount of money. Where on the other side maybe for that purpose of the product we can actually use our components and then we are on a different price point. Yeah. And a lot of these on the right products, they are in small numbers which would never allow a supplier to actually manufacture it for us because he would say like, listen, if I have to manufacture it for you, then you have to go 150,000 square meters. And where I said like, yeah, but I only need 25 because it's just a part of a wing for example, and not the entire. So that is the grade of flexibility we are aiming for. That we have our model on system created in the way that we can actually pick, choose and select according to the requirements.
- [25:54]
Interviewer/Host
And down the line there's no. You're not thinking of ever taking those factories back to China. You're completely happy with the manufacturing and the duplication happening in North Macedonia.
- [26:04]
Ralph Grossel
W. That's an, that's a. That's a good question. I'm not able to answer. Like, I mean there is, there is definitely there was a reason to come to Europe because in Europe you have a different mentality. Let's put it this way. Yeah. And this is very important to understand. Yeah. We are all humans but we are all extremely different depending on where we are and how we grew up and whatever. So it is a different type of mindset in Europe. There, as I said, there are things easier to achieve. And in Asia there are other things way easier to achieve. Like for example, the sheer amount of speed and work which is provided from the labor side in Asia is incomparable to the European speed. That is just a fact. But when it comes to knowledge and when it comes to knowledge based, surprisingly there is still a lot of knowledge available in Europe when it comes to textiles even, there's no real big textile industry. But still the knowledge is there. And this is where we are trying to participate on. We have big players when it comes to raw materials. And with the fall of the automotive industry, it actually opened up new doors to talk to players which 10 years ago would never even consider talking to you because you would have been way too, too small and too edgy. But right now there is a different forced mentality and everybody has to reinvent themselves due to the lack of bigger having these consistent customers like automotive. And that is a chance, you know, that's a chance for me. But if it will continue like this, who knows? You know, like Europe is chang very fast. The world is turning even faster every single day. It's hard to predict. But I would say right now, for the projects we have in mind, I think Europe is actually quite a clever place to be.
- [28:17]
Interviewer/Host
So in your factory you have more specialists, would you put it that way? Like people who are specialists in each area versus the lab, which is more sort of free thinking, innovative. Other people working there more got a job and they do it perfectly every time to keep that duplication at the highest level.
- [28:36]
Ralph Grossel
Yeah, this is very important, like duplication. As I said, never change a running system. You should never change the operator of the sewing machine. For example, we have two shift systems, which means in the end, let's say you have 100 sewing machines and that means you need 100 operators. If you have two shifts, then you would actually need 200 operators operating 100 machines, obviously. So the idea in the manufacturing is that every single component is always to the highest standards in speed and quality. And that requires really different mindset than in the lab where we have, let's say six ladies being able to create an entire kite, where on the manufacturing side I need 100. That's basically the ratio. Yeah, so 6 versus 100. So yeah, it is, it's very different. It's very different. It works, it works in a different way. But it's ultimately, it's kind of nice to see because if we came to the point, if we managed to finalize a product and we're happy with this, and then we can actually see how fast it can be produced on the manufacturing, that's very satisfying. Where we. On the left side would take, I don't know, like six people a week to get a product done. Then in the manufacturing, turnaround time is, I don't know, a couple of hours or so.
- [30:18]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, it all sounds pretty incredible, Ralph, but are you keeping an eye on the state of the industry? Because arguably, kite bonding has probably never been in a worse state. I think. I think a lot of brands are bleeding, a lot of brands are hurting. A lot of it come from overproduction during COVID which is. Which we all know about. Are you keeping an eye on what's going on and how other brands are sort of reacting to the market trend at the moment?
- [30:45]
Ralph Grossel
Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, I. I have never been just a kite. Not, not saying just a kite designer, but my job description was always more than being a kite designer within my career, which technically started when, with. At the. At the age of 14 when I really got that broken sewing machine together from, from my mother and starting to create scale paragliders.
- [31:15]
Interviewer/Host
The.
- [31:16]
Ralph Grossel
I have been building up not only infrastructures, but companies. Yeah, my first company was Flysurfer and then from there over to multiple brands or companies I build it or I have been heavily involved in them. Working for Dual Tone as a. As a kite designer for 20 years. Definitely also requires to understand how the market is working because even from the kite designer's perspective, it is very important to understand what kind of trends you're following. And for us at Brainchild, the current situation, as you said, within the kite surfing industry is horrible. Like, that's basically the. The only word I can describe. I have not seen anything like that in the last 27 years. And yeah, there are, and I'm definitely not saying any names over here, but there has been major misalignments from, let's say, two major players in the industry, which I would say brought us into the situation as we are in the moment. It is what it is. I think it is also understandable, like if you understand how these companies are actually working and how they are behaving. It was kind of a logic thing that the market is under pressure with the overproducing and also with the rebates which are going on at the moment. But technically there's always a way out. And for me, it's a massive challenge, maybe the biggest ever for the industry itself, or arguably it is the biggest challenge for the industry. And yes, we can already say today that the industry we know until now will not exist tomorrow in terms of supply chains, for example, that is absolutely clear. That is 100% for sure that the way the customer is reaching out to the product itself will change literally tomorrow or already has changed. So is that something really bad? Well, we will see. We will see. I would not like say it is bad to a stage that I'm really concerned about kite surfing. Absolutely not. Because there's definitely still people out there, 100% satisfied, motivated with what they are doing. I think it's not like windsurfing, where you can really see, okay, windsurfing had a massive peak and then it just constantly dropped. This is not what I see in kitesurfing. As long as there is price to value, products available and innovation, this is very important. Innovation always has one purpose, to make kite surfing more accessible. That's very important. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand anything. This is like I do everything I do just to make sure that kitesurfing becomes more accessible, more easy. The ease of use of a product is the key to success in the market in general. We have to make the products as smart, as easy to use as ever possible to the best price to value ratio. And that's my philosophy. I think this is going to work out. Hopefully only time will tell. But yeah, this is how I see it. It is challenging, but I think it also gives certain opportunities.
- [35:10]
Interviewer/Host
Speaking of price to value, though, see, the thing is, Ralph, we've been talking about the race to the bottom for a long time. When is a kite company going to bring out a great kite at a great price point? Because, you know, surfing and skating and bodyboarding, you name it, they're easy to get into. But in kiteboarding, it's just not cool to ride a cheap kite. That's the problem. Maybe it's our problem. Maybe we need to get off our high horse and we need to swallow our ego and, and, and do something like that. Because I feel like brands, all brands, you know, don't want to make a, a great cheap kite.
- [35:47]
Ralph Grossel
Well, Adrian, this is always a question of, like, what actually defines the retail price? Because now from the manufacturing point of view, I see the manufacturing price, and the manufacturing price obviously is not the retail price. Obviously it cannot be, because who's going to pay The R and D, who's going to pay the infrastructure of the companies. So it is absolutely clear in a non communist society that there is a margin on everything. And now the margin is definitely defined by the sales channel. And as mentioned, we see that these sale channels are actually changing. So for me, clearly in the end it is always the question, can I manufacture it cheaper, but does it then automatically result into a cheaper product? And we have seen, I mean I have seen smart strategies from other companies using cheaper material, but basically selling it on an expensive price point, which, yeah, makes sense, short term, 100% makes sense for them. But the idea about Brainchild was always to say, like, we try to have the best price to value ratio. Which means, for example, we, we tried to get the best out of polyester based dark brown fabrics in combination with the pro weld to achieve kites which are on the same level as Alula. And, and we did that. So that was already like from the manufacturing point of view, an extreme change. Extremely. Because it would have been fairly simple to say from the very beginning at Brainchild, we are using just an off the shelf laminate which always has been available and we are creating something with it. But it definitely increases the price. It does. Laminate is at least four times more expensive, minimum four times more expensive than an average polyester based darkround. It's facing facts and there will be never a chance to even get this ratio lowered. So whenever a company is introducing laminates, you have a significantly more expensive product and then the supply chain itself defines the retail price. It's a different kind of view, you know, like it's my view from the designer's point of view, but also from the men from the manufacturing point of view. And then the companies are coming in place and ultimately the companies are defining the retail price based on their internal strategy.
- [38:40]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, it's a difficult one, you know, I mean, I understand where you're coming from and I understand the strategy, but it's tough. I do think that the biggest thing that holds our sport, and we love the sport so much, is that it's difficult for emerging markets to get into it. You know, you go around Asia as you've been here before, you know, the kids, the Beach Boys there. Oh, let me fly your kite for half an hour and I'll pack it up. You know, they're desperate to get in, but they just can't afford, can't afford good gear. They can't afford gear and full stop, you know, Brazil's another opportunity. So yeah, it's a. It's a real tough one. And I don't know the answer.
- [39:14]
Ralph Grossel
Yeah, Adrian, I don't know if it's a tough one, but because like, ultimately it is always the question, how sustainable is an industry in itself? And sustainable means that the players within the market, are they able to. To participate on what they are creating? That is always the question. And then there's the level of like, how high is the participation rate? So kite surfing will never be as cheap as, let's say, a football. Just, I don't know, like, I just made up something stupid, you know. But, but surfing because. Because it cannot be. It cannot be as long as we have that grade of complexity within the materials itself. And, well, I mean, I think it is possible to reduce that grade of complexity definitely to a certain degree, which in theory would make it cheaper to manufacture, but you also have to innovate it. And that is something which is definitely counterproductive for the price. Let's, for example, let's make one example. If I need a sophisticated ultrasonic welding machine. Yeah, assume machine you can buy for, let's say a thousand euros. Yeah, a reasonable one welding machine. We are in the range of €30, €35,000 plus. So if you want to have the innovation, you have to have a return of investment. Elsewise you're not turning any wheels anymore. So even if I would create a mold which then creates an inflatable structure, like I have to pay for the mold, and that is always what is a question of volume. If you are in a mass market where you say like, yeah, a million pieces per unit is something you want to achieve, then the cost of the mold is irrelevant. But if you say you're just making a thousand of that products from the same mold, then the cost of the mold is extremely relevant. So it is a question of like, also of understanding how business in general and the market in total is going to work. And yeah, we are just not in the position to sell a million wings. Not yet. Maybe one day. I would love to see that, Adrian. Like, I would love to see it.
- [41:58]
Interviewer/Host
Well, Ralph, we got a little bit off topic at the end, but. But really incredible stuff, mate. I love. You know, I called, I said, I feel like you're Tony Stark, you know, or. Or Elon Musk and just having these great ideas and I think it's super cool to have people like you in this industry and doing what you're doing, mate. It sounds awesome. I'm really disappointed. I never made up to the factory. I'm looking forward to coming at the next opportunity, buddy. I definitely. I miss him. Thanks very much for your time, Ralph. That was incredible and super cool to see.
- [42:26]
Ralph Grossel
Yeah, Adrian, thank you very much. And it was absolutely a shame. As I said, it's a shame that you never came, but there's always time. And the next time, let's say, for example, if Mykonos is going to happen again next year, then definitely let's use the opportunity. Hopefully. Until then, we also have something even more sophisticated to show. It is absolutely clear that right now everybody is trying to really start to survive. And also we. From the manufacturing point of view, there's. There's. There's no question about it. You know, like, we have to find different ways, which was. Anyway, always the idea, like the pitch about Grainchild and especially the lab was always to have the chance of doing synergies, always. Because that's a natural thing. No, ultimately, nevertheless, I was hoping that I'm not getting forced to have these alternatives now. The market forces me. That is basic, and that is never good. You know, if you get forced to something, it's never as good as being basically developing into something. But, yeah, I mean, fantastic. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I love it. You know, like, it's. It's a. It's a great honor and pleasure to use your format together with you guys to actually also express what I try to achieve. That's very important for me. So hope to see you in person very soon.