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TechCast #25 AMA with DK | Episode # 410
00:46:27
On today’s episode DK returns for another TechCast. We continue with the AMA questions from the listeners. WOO Sports: Support the show: Contact me: Follow me: ...
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the kitesurf 365 podcast.
- [00:04]
B
Welcome back to the show. I hope you all had a great weekend. On today's episode, DK returns for another TechCast. We're going to continue with the AMA questions from the listeners. This is part two. I think we've probably got about two or three more parts because we have so many questions to answer. Don't forget to follow me at kitesurf365 for all the latest episodes. Ladies and gentlemen, Dave K. Dk. Good to see you, mate. It's been a long time since we've been on the techcast. Things have been pretty crazy from both ends. The WOO Worlds, all these competitions, all the travel, but we're back to it. We're back to the ama. We've got so many questions. This might take us deep until next year. I do want to say that when I get to Cape Town next month, we will do a safety one. There has been a lot of talk about safety. There has been a lot of people in Cape Town talking about it on the back of the grand stuff. So I think what we're going to do is going to get a little group with you, me, probably a colleague as well, to sit down and we'll just have an open discussion. Obviously you and I have spoken a little bit. We have to tread carefully on that without sort of opening up a can of worms and, or creating too much restriction within their sport. I think that's probably the fair way to say it.
- [01:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely that. Funnily enough, and the listeners won't realize this, but you and I have been talking about doing some sort of safety thing for probably as long as the techcast has been. Been a thing. But the right format and the right, the. Yeah. And the right platform to do that on has always kind of eluded us. So yeah, we, we will definitely get there. It's, it's, it's definitely quite, quite relevant right now and yeah, it's good to be back and I don't know, like, I think it's been six weeks and that in that time what we've had. You've been to Europe twice for two different, two different competitions and, and we've had the WOO Worlds, which both of our teams did okay. So yeah, we were. It's been really, really good.
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B
Got a second and a fourth in the team stuff which is not too bad. I, I mean of claiming the Portrait cup between me and Colin. I don't know if that actually exists.
- [02:14]
A
But sounds like it's gonna, we Did. We actually did the same. We did. We got a second. We got a second in the team. The team max height. We got fourth in the. In the team. Accumulated height and we beat out Colin. So that fourth is a first as far as I. As far as we're concerned.
- [02:35]
B
Dk, do you ride in the Nations Cup? Do you ride under the South African flag or the Kiwi flag?
- [02:40]
A
I ride under the Kiwi flag, but I didn't contribute. I didn't contribute anything to the Kiwis, but I do manage the. Because I manage the team CT Air staff. I also by default, I've been managing the. The South African team. So yeah, which actually a great bunch of new riders come through this year. We've got a. Like last year we were sort of struggling to find some junior riders. This year we've got a whole bunch of new guys coming through. It was actually. It was a really, really cool worlds. We were. We were underdone on wind. Like, we actually. What really made it for us was Josh and Jason getting up to Denmark really cemented our top. Oh, and then Sue's 25.2, which is just an absolute banger. So that, that certainly helped out a lot. So. So. And then the Kiwis and your.
- [03:28]
B
By the way, and your wingers, man. Oh, Nathan Van Ru. I think he. Y don't know. He might have actually even won. Won the wing.
- [03:37]
A
Nathan. Nathan won the wing. But we got. I think the second and third were also South Africans. So that, that, that was a really, really good, really good result. And yeah, well done to the Kiwis. They, uh, they actually beat us out into second.
- [03:57]
B
We're both Kiwis, Dave. Well done to us. Well done to us.
- [03:59]
A
Well done to us. But yeah, Jason beat out the South Africans on the. Jason's Kiwi team built it. Beat out the South Africans with some banger. Yeah, getting some Olympic. Some Olympic foilers out and getting 45.45kilometer results on the final day. I just. We could. We. There was. We got no. We got no one. Yeah. South Africa's got no one in that. That league. So yeah. 3.8 meters. We were beaten by. For the. At second place.
- [04:30]
B
It. Mate, you know what? You and I are Kiwis, right? But it's that classic Kiwi mentality, right? Doing as well as you do with so little and it's. Yes. And you know, we say that in other sports and you know, we. We sort of bat above our average. But the New Zealand kite scene, as you know, in its present state, not from before is quite small and what they do is kind of crazy, right?
- [04:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the thing. Like kite, kite boarding. I would say so it's been 15 years now since I've lived in New Zealand, but I would say there is the total size of the kite scene in New Zealand now is like half the size of what it was when I left New Zealand. And that's, there's a whole. Wow. You could, we could go into the discussion about why that's been a thing. But yet like for such a small scene to have like possibly two, two riders in the. Trying to make it into king of the year this year. Like one of the oldest and one of the youngest but. And then those results, and those results in the Wii Worlds. Yeah, that's. Kiwis do amazingly well. Clark's 20, 28 meter jump in the seniors. Like what an absolute legend that boy is.
- [05:46]
B
And you know what I love about Clark the most? It's just the pure honesty. He was like when he got up there he's like, holy. And I, I just love. Look, not enough people talk about when you go high, how scared you get. And he, I just love that he said man, I was just myself, man. You know, honestly, it was just every little part of my thing was just thinking, okay, just get down, just get down, just get down, you know.
- [06:09]
A
Well that place is gnarly. Unless you're chasing woo scores, you really wouldn't go and kite there because it's just a, it's just a really crazy place to kite. But like sometimes I just feel so lucky to be like chasing woo scores in Cape Town because it's like when you look at like we go out and it's, it's sunshine and there's, there's people chilling on the beach and we're able to go and jump. I did my first 20 meters only a week ago. It's always blown me away. Like you can have a 30 knot kiting day in New Zealand is not sunshine. A 30 knot kiting day in New Zealand was always horizontal rain and gusts. And Cape Town is not. No, we're just chilling. It's a beautiful day at the beach. So. Yeah, no, those boys do really well.
- [06:56]
B
You know, even Clark saying in that interview, you know, I was just in the changing rooms putting my wetsuit on thinking I don't have to be here, I don't have to do this. And I love, I've, I've, I felt that many times. I know, I know exactly that moment. Anyway, before we get into it. Dk, what did you think of Charles Bredell yesterday? Breaking or the other day breaking. Breaking the WOO record on a foil. Not even woosting. I think this might be the way it's going to go, abs.
- [07:21]
A
He absolutely kicked ass with that and I'm so stoked for the boy. It is just like he's actually. He had. He had an absolute banger of a. Like that whole computer that did amazing for him goes out, sets a new Wii record, which is just awesome, but also gets his best result ever in a big air comp and he gets himself. Gets himself the golden ticket. Like my. My funniest story with. With Charles was watching him at. At Kota last year and he won his heat. He came off the water, he'd won his heat and he was so disappointed with the actual score that the judges gave him. He was the. He was storming off. He wanted to go and have a go at the judges. And I'm like, that's like, dude, I.
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B
Remember we were sitting together.
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A
We were sitting together. Yeah, exactly. It's like you won your heat like both of those things on the same day. He's. He's totally justified why he is, why he's doing what he's doing and why he's the best in the world at it, which is awesome because like that frustration that I saw a year ago was just like, oh, man, I can understand why you're there, but what like you'd won. Like you got through. You didn't have to. Yeah. So. And now he's absolutely got through.
- [08:38]
B
We just put up an emergency episode with him last night and you might not listen to that because it would come up in your night as well.
- [08:45]
A
No, no, as soon as it came up, we were. We were on it. So. No.
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B
Interesting. Did you hear what he said? He said, the king of the judges told me I wasn't riding with enough power. And we probably saw that at cold Hawaii as well. He was on the smaller kite, but this kite he was riding at 8, the same as the twin tips, you know. You know, he's saying, you know, I worked on my lead strength and so he's listened to that and made a big change because those boys riding eights and 36, 37 knots in port Apollo and him on a foil on an 8 and 36 knots of Porto polo is a big step up in power.
- [09:19]
A
There's a direct correlation between that and his 37 meter jump. That's the. Like, you've got to. It's. You have to have power like yes, he's been jumping high but he's been using speed. Now he's actually using power and it makes a big difference in that getting that vertical lift. So I'm looking forward to seeing him in King of the Air though it's a completely different comp. He definitely had an advantage at Porto polo because it was flat water and his foil does suffer when it comes to the aerated stuff on the inside at King of the Air.
- [09:56]
B
So yeah, if you want to hear more about Charles because he does get a little bit technical, he's obviously on his own. Quite the banger. New material, talks about the foil a bit. So yeah, definitely go check it out. Let's get straight into this dk.
- [10:10]
A
And just one, one more thing to add to that. So good to see more designer writers doing so well in Woo. So we got like McGilloway a year ago, made the, made the top 10. He's just out of the top 10 now. But that's on his own, on his own kite. And in fact for a good chunk of the last year, like there's been more, more of fly surfer eras in the, in the top 10 than anything else, which is absolutely amazing. And then sue just last month, 25.2 on her own kite in the Woo Worlds. And now Charles taking out the, taking the overall record all on their own designs. That is, that's so unique like that. Like I don't, I don't know of any other sport where the top, like where the top riders that's actually are also the top designers. Like they're all on their own gear.
- [11:02]
B
That is, there's no surfers doing their own boards, is there? Not at the very top. They haven't got the time to do it.
- [11:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not, not at this level.
- [11:10]
B
The interesting that I like best about Charles when you're talking about the kite, you know, he said it's been two years in production. I like the fact that he's not rushing it, you know, a lot. I think a lot of people try and rush a kite to market, but he seems to be taking his time. He seems to have the, the faith in F1 as well or F1 have the faith in him to take his time and yeah, interesting that he's not pushing it. He hasn't rushed it. You know, he's changed materials halfway through, which probably set him back a little bit. But I'm looking forward to trying that banger. A lot of brands bringing out their own proprietary material now as well. Got the NU80 coming up from north now. There's Quadex coming out from F1. Yeah. The sport at a technical face value is really spreading out sideways almost.
- [11:54]
A
It's good to see, like for the longest time there was no materials development in kiteboarding. Like, we're all just running the same recipe. Like, and it used to be, dude.
- [12:05]
B
It used to be how much stitching was on it. This double, you know, the double, the triple, the quad. It's just how much?
- [12:11]
A
Yeah, completely. Yeah, yeah. The ripstop pattern. Yeah. We've done a complete techcast that basically goes. That's just graphics. And the canopy's the kind of like the least important when it comes to materials development because it's actually the structural frame that all of the new gains have been taken from. But yeah, for the longest time we had nothing. And then in fact we actually go back, it was the best. Hellfish was such a disaster with that Dyneema material that everybody was just like, no way we're actually going to touch anything other than the stand recipe. Alula's come out and then it's actually taken longer than I expected. But a whole bunch of new things are coming onto the market. So it's cool. Like, and at some point in the future we need, we actually need to re. What we need actually would be very cool. Let's get, do some testing of like get a bunch of, of kites with all new, new materials and actually do some back to back testing and then do a, do a techcast that's just around like the technology and the process behind all those new materials. It'll be fantastic. So because they're all built differently as well. So yeah, be very cool.
- [13:24]
B
Let's get back to these questions. Dk, Another big change in the industry has been lines. And we've got more line questions here. This has come from Kite Forum from Chevix. He's got a couple of questions we're going to ask. The first one, where are the lines made mostly?
- [13:39]
A
That's a really, really good question. And it's this one of those, one of those strange things where what gets banded around like across the, across the whole industry now is like sk99. Oh, we got you. Sk99 lines. Sk99 lines. Does anyone actually know what the hell that means? Because it's just a, it's a. It's. It's four, it's four characters. And it doesn't tell you. It doesn't tell me anything much about what the line is at all. Because those, those, those four characters are just an internal code at a company called Dyneema and Dyneema make all the fiber. So Dyneema and that fiber, we've, we've done a techcast in the past and we can, we can put a link back to it about how lines are actually made. But the Dyneema is a company that takes ethylene molecules and turns them into polyethylene molecules and then pulls those out into fibers. That's the, that's their whole business model is just conversion of ethylene gas into polyethylene plastic. And that SK99 is just a code for the fiber, that final fiber. And SK99 is their most recent fiber. It's the thinnest, it's the strongest, it's the stiffest, but it's only, but it's also very, very thin. And there's another fiber called SK76 and there's SK75 and actually those are the common ones used in kiting. And then there's a whole bunch of other things that Dyneema does, but Dyneema, they make fiber. And that fiber for the most part's like useless to the two kite borders because it doesn't, it needs processing into a kite line. And to process it into a kite line, it needs to be braided, it needs to be pre stretched and then it needs to be coated with a, with a finish. And that's what makes it Kite Line, not the fiber and not the fact that it's got the name or those four letters, SK whatever on the end of it. It's what makes a much bigger difference in terms of the performance of that line is how it's braided and how it's finished. And those companies typically all based in Europe. And there are companies like companies like Braidtech in Holland. And then there's also there's companies in France and Germany that all specialist braiding companies and line finishing companies. And they've all got the little secret recipe of how they align the machine and the tensions that they put on it and the angles things are getting wound at and then how they pre stretch that after they've actually done the, done the braiding and what that formula of the specialist coating that they'll never tell you what it is on the outside of the line. And that's what creates Kite Line. So and there is almost an infinite number of combinations of everything that we've talked about there that takes that line, that fiber and turns it into Kite line. And that's where all the development is going on. And there's lots of like, lots of kite companies. And then guys like Gillian at the linesmith are working with the braiders to try and make better line. And yeah, that's, that's where it all. That's where it all comes from. And in fact, there's. There's even now some. Some fiber coming out of. Because Dyneema's patterns have all run out. There is some fiber coming out of China, and there are definitely braiders in China and, and Taiwan, whose line in the past was complete garbage, and it's not garbage anymore. And that slowly there could be some new developments coming from that side of the planet, but nothing that I know is being used in production. Or maybe some kite line, bridle line actually, but nothing in terms of kite line.
- [17:47]
B
Dyneema, the name is like Sellotape now, right? It's just riddled. I mean, even in sailing, people talk about Dyneema. It's kind of crazy how that name has sort of become the, the product even though it's a brand name. It's crazy, right, how, how stitched into nautical, especially the nautical industry, the word Dyneema is.
- [18:05]
A
Yeah, well, it's Dyneema. Dyneema is a company that makes. Makes fiber and they're particularly good at it. And those fibers are the lightest, strongest fibers that human beings have ever made. That's if you want the lightest and strongest, like, thing made from woven or made from fibers you. You use that. Well, there's. There are carbon fibers as well, but for car. Yeah, they're kind of competitive with each other, but they have slightly. Yeah, they have different applications. But yeah, that's the, that's the. It's actually carbon's exactly the same way people say, oh, it's. It's a full carbon X. And it's like. Oh, yeah. Doesn't tell me. Really. It's like. Like what? Like, what are the fiber orientations? How much is in there? Who. What's the matrix that's used? How is it designed? Like, there's way more to it than it was. It's made with Dyneema. It's like, yeah, everything is. But it doesn't tell me whether it's good, bad or otherwise.
- [19:17]
B
So there's another question from Chevix. Let's just get his two out the way because he does have two good ones. I'm also curious about quick release units on bars. Some are used by multiple brands. Some are brand specific. Are the bars and quick releases made in similar factories or completely elsewhere?
- [19:33]
A
Oh, this is a really, really good question. And if we go back in the history of kiteboarding. Originally there were no quick releases, so. But the kite control systems were typically completely manufactured. Well, at least they were assembled from injection moulded parts and bits of aluminum tubing and rope and, and Dyneema line. All of those parts were converted sort of from raw materials into, into a control bar in the same factory as the kite. And that's just kind of tradition. Like it makes sense that. Hey ik, the big Chinese factory. Ik, I say you're air rush. I want to make, I want to buy Slingshot or if one or any of the other customers that are out of there, I want you to make kites for me. And if I'm going to sell kites, I need control systems. Can you make control systems for me? So they're always that the control systems were traditionally made in the same factory in a production line that was sort of parallel to the kites being made. That just kind of made sense. But over time, if we look at the complexity and the complexity and risk and cost associated with kiting, even with all the discussion that we've had about materials, our kites are not fundamentally different in reality. Like, I've got a 2002 Cabrina CO2 sitting in a bag at my parents place from one of the very first times I was ever sponsored. And if I pull that kite out of the bag and compare the, the materials on it and the construction, it's not, it's not massively different to where we're at right now. Like everything's got better, but it's like it might be, it's. You would have to, you would have chronological improvement, really.
- [21:51]
B
Yeah, it's just time.
- [21:53]
A
Yeah, absolutely. You'd have to be an expert in the field to actually go, oh, you know, that's an old construction, this is a new construction. There's not. So in terms of the kite constructions, where we're conceptually in pretty much the same area, everything's got better, but we haven't. Like there hasn't been radical change. If you compare that to control systems, our bars have got infinitely more complex, more difficult to make, much more risky in terms of we understand the sport now and a lot more. And that a lot of the liability risk of running a kite brand comes from your control system and its ability to work. There are international standards that have to be applied and failure, like failure of a control system above 20 meters is a big problem. So, so control systems are. And so all of that has got way more complex and way more expensive than 25 years ago. And so the concept of specialization in control systems has become a thing. And factories, there are definitely factories now that don't do anything to do with the kite. They just work on control systems now. Probably one of the first to do this was Duotone. Duotone have had a partner, a German company with a big manufacturing facility in China called CTM. CTM's been Duotone's partner for control systems for a very long time. And one of Shivix's things was about some people seem to be using the same quick release. Actually one of the first companies to sort of offer their quick release as a part that other companies could buy was actually Duotone and the Ironheart has been used by a number of different companies. Flysurfer was, was one of those. It made a lot of sense to, it made a lot of sense to a company like Flysurfer to reduce their risk and reduce their investment cost and actually buy a proven design from somebody else and use it. So but Shivix was asking in particular, there seems to be a lot of brands all using the same, same quick release. Well, a few years ago there was a thing called the ISO 21853 standard came about and that was an industry initiative to standardize the testing, labeling performance of quick releases. And we have done a techcast on this in the past. But the upshot was there was a de facto world standard in a thing called the Ethnor standard which was French only, but because it was every kite brand in the world wanted to sell in France. They would aim to have their control systems pass the Ethno standard. And you don't make two different control systems, you don't make one for France and the rest of the world. So you, to pass the Ethnore standard means that your control system you are, you have a, you can sell in France and you sell that one worldwide. But that standard had some, there was some frustrations across the industry about how that standard was defined and how it was tested. So replacing that with ISO 21853 was an industry wide initiative. And what came out of that is a standard that replaced the ethanol standard and is applicable worldwide and has a much better defined set of performance standards and a very, very well defined test method. But the upshot from that is a lot of there at the time that that standard was ratified a lot of there were a number of kite brands whose control systems and quick releases had passed the Ethnor standard but would fail the ISO standard because it's a, it was a much better defined Standard and to develop a new quick release is about a hundred thousand US dollars and takes. Takes. I've done it a few like I've done it with some brands a few times. It's US$100,000 in non recurring engineering engineering costs and is the biggest, single biggest risk in your entire business and takes a couple of years. And yeah there were just brands like this doesn't make any sense for us to spend this much money. Is there an alternative? And there happened to be a, a company that actually Lacuna now was one of the first, first brands to actually get on board with this, with this program was a company called Majestic. Majestic had developed their own quick release and actually and had offers us a. The entire company is built around the concept of OEM kite bar production. So they have a, they have a kite bar or they have quick release and a bar manufacturing facility which brands can have the ability to do customization on. But the underlying, the underlying quick release is somebody else's but it's very well designed, it's well engineered, it passes all the tests and you can just go and buy it. You don't have to, you don't have to put $100,000 in and wait two years and hope like hell it all works. This you just go and you buy and it works. Now the timing of ISO 21853 coming on board and Majestic Manufacturing being able to offer this, this quick release solution was they pretty much lined up with each other and wonderful for the guys at Majestic they've ended up now supplying probably I would say something close to like probably approaching half of all the control systems sold in kiteboarding now are probably coming out of that, that one ecosystem. And there are brands like ourselves, but Lacuna, Harlem, Ventum actually Jacobson Ocean Rodeo have gone there now. But like Slingshots elevate some of the bigger brands in our, in our industry. And I've actually just noticed at the latest AWSI videos that Cabrina are now getting their control systems, their latest release of control systems coming out of there. So all of this, yeah I would say this is again probably approaching half of all the control systems in the market. And I'm personally a fan. I think this is a really good, this is a really good direction for the industry to go because standardization of safety equipment actually makes the whole, I think it makes the whole industry a little bit safer. Like it's everything looks and works and acts the same but there's also other things. It's just like way easier to get spare parts and support and stuff across the world with that, that ecosystem. So yeah, it is something and it's something that's happened in the last few years in the industry that there's been this sort of move to a very standardized control system for a lot of brands.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah, Majestic, we use those as our blank kite testing bars. So yeah, they're great to work with. Hey, let's go to another one. This is from Captain Cook via Kite Forum. Which of the following determines your progress or the amount of fun had in a session? Is it board choice? Is it the right kite or style for the discipline you want to do or is it your fitness level? I mean I think this could be a very big open ended question but I'm interested to hear what you have to say.
- [30:15]
A
I did. I'm. I'm a board designer. It's got it 100. It's all about the board. Like everything. Nothing else matters. You just have to have the latest, most high performance kite border that you've ever had. No, I'm absolutely full of. That's not at all what the actual answer to this question is. And though you're out as an industry and in fact probably I would blame the marketing departments of our industry more than anything else they will tell you that the only thing that you need is the latest and greatest piece of equipment. And I firmly do not believe that it's though I'm a product person and I love developing new equipment and I love to be on the cutting edge when it comes to progression. If you just want to get out and get better at the sport then everything else pales into insignificance compared to getting time on the water. So it's you, it does not matter what gear you have. It's the gear that you are the most experienced with and you have the most time on the water with that you will progress the fastest. So everything else is kind of noise on the peripheral like a specialized piece of equipment that's might like a, a 5 strut big air kite might get you another meter higher on your WOO score compared to a three strut all rounder. But spending going out and spending an entire session just training on getting your launches off the water better are going to put three meters onto your WOO score more than than than just swapping kites because it's time on the water, it's experience, it's just, it's the more you can kite the better you will kite. And so I always tell like the things that you can spend money on that'll actually greatly increase your Your, your enjoyment and your progression in kiting is all based around your lifestyle, your location. Like live closer to the beach, change your job so that you get more more you actually have more free time to go go and ride. All of that will make much bigger difference to your ability to kite than going out and spending US$5,000 on an, an Alula big air kite. Like if, if that, that doesn't make anywhere near as much of a difference. But that being said I, we have done a, we have done some techcasts in the past. We've talked about what getting the most out of your gear, getting the most out of the money you're spending on the gear. I say like I'm always the, the closer the product is to your body the more you the, the, the more concerned you should be over its fit and performance for you. So good wetsuits because if you're cold on the water you're just not going to, you're not going to enjoy your time, you're not going to go kiting. Harness fit is incredibly important and probably one of the most overlooked things in our entire industry. See so many people out on the water just wearing harnesses that are completely wrong for their body style and are completely screwing with their, their, their enjoyment of the sport, their progression in their sport, their personal health. Getting like getting rib injuries every every month because your harness is smashing in your ribs like that's just not, that's not good for you. So and then control systems that fit your body, your body shape and good bindings that fit you fit your feet. Like that's all stuff that's actually going to make a big difference to your, the time you have on the water. And then when it comes to kites and boards, the most appropriate for your size, for your location, for the style that you're trying to, trying to achieve. And don't get hung up on the latest trend. Like you will probably progress faster on a mid aspect ratio 3 strut all round kite for the most part than you will if you're on some super rocket ship high performance Alula 3 strut spin like double looping style kite because that's a much, much more difficult thing to fly than. And if you're really good and your full time job is going out and just riding like eight hours a day, you can probably get the extra 5% of performance out of that. That's that super high end kite. But if you're not Jason Van der Spee, you're probably going to do better on something that's just a little easier to use.
- [35:13]
B
I do want to jump forward to two. I think we're gonna, I think we'll come back to Brent's bladder question next month. But I do want to jump to these last two. The last one we'll talk about fins. But do any market demographics for kitewa. Do you have any market demographics for kiteboarding and how has that changed?
- [35:35]
A
I'm a product person. I'm not in the marketing side of this business. And in terms of demographics, like it's the marketing people that really want to know who kites because what they're trying to do is work out how to talk to those people. So and where demographics are really important to them is like do is. Is Instagram a better, a better channel than Facebook or is Facebook better because our, our people are older? Are there any kiters that are using TikTok? Like that's the, that's their. They're trying. Or are our YouTube channels the best? Or do we. Do we. Do we do shorts on our like short videos on our Instagram? Like that's what they're trying to do because they're trying to work out the best, most efficient way to communicate across these channels to the various riders from a product point of view where we are much less interested. Like we are kind of interested in the demographic, but it's not so much like numbers. It's more that the best products that we can develop are always ones that are targeted that are targeted to the person that we, we want or the person that we feel will use that product at the end of the day. So there I mentioned earlier, like there are kites designed for Jason Van der Spee that might not be the most suitable kite for a 50 year old like myself who's just out to chase woo scores. I'm never going to double loop. I'm never going to do a short line loop with the kite kite underneath me. I just, I would injure myself so that though that sort of kite can be built to work well for a 50 year old, it's generally if you're trying to push it that you want Jason to win competitions, it's probably compromised to. Away from what would be the ideal kite for, for myself. And, and so but if I'm trying to sell a kite to myself or I'm even just trying to build a board that's specific for me that I want to go out and ride for the end of the day, sue and I own and run a brand, but for the most part we're actually we'd be more than happy to admit we're actually just building the equipment we want to ride and if somebody else actually wants to come along for the ride, awesome. But we're not specifically targeting, like winning winning kota because we just don't. We're not going to be in kota. And actually the kites that win kota aren't the sort of kites we want to fly. So demographic wise, it's that different parts of the business will look at kite boarding differently. But I would say in 25 years of kite boarding, kiters have got older. Like we are. Typically there are. There are some amount of young kiters coming into the sport, but like, people who started kiting 25 years ago for the most part are still. Are still kiting now. They're just 25 years older. So as the sport gets older, the people who are doing it get older. We just like, that's just. We tend to all accumulate, but it's the ones that have already been in it that accumulate more than the new ones coming in at the bottom.
- [39:07]
B
We had people talking about the portal fins, the orca fins at the time. When I asked you that, you said, listen, I honestly, in all fairness, I haven't had to try. I believe you've made some cnc versions of. Of these. I know other people in the market are doing CNC versions and trying different stuff. You know, we do have these two main companies at the moment. Give me your feedback. What. What did you think when you had a play with the fins?
- [39:31]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [39:31]
B
You want to play with your fins? I should say your fins.
- [39:33]
A
My fins? Yeah. So. So after, like, after the. After ayahs and the other questions from last. From the last techcast, I was like, I actually like a scientific method. Like, I can't have an opinion on this without. Without actually having gone out and tried it. So I've got a 3D printer sitting behind me in my office here and I took some. I took our current kuna fin design and made it a bit taller and bent it around like the orca fin. So to orca's credit, like, I. That I, yeah, I didn't have access to their fins, but I do have access to my printer and I wanted something that actually matched up pretty nicely with the rest of the fins on my board. So I made a couple of heelside fins in that style and I. Yeah, the most surprising thing to me, I expected not to enjoy them because I've always been of the record.
- [40:35]
B
Two woo records later, brother.
- [40:37]
A
Well, the thing I've always Been of the opinion like I'm old school and I came into very old in terms of kiteboarding and I came into kiteboarding as like. In fact my entire mentality coming into kiteboarding was wakeboarding without a boat. So I have always spin of that small fin. I'd like my boards to be quite loose. I like to be able to do surface handle passes but specific. So yeah and running even 45 mil fins on my board have always, has always felt just like really like stiffer than what I've wanted without giving me any real advantages. But surprisingly enough like these, the, these bent fins on my hillside edge weren't as catchy and as like trip up as what I, what I expected. And though there is a performance difference, it's not massive like at least for me like but there is something in it like that you can hold or the board does tend to hold on for a little bit longer. For a little bit, for a little bit and a little bit harder and specifically chasing WU scores which I've been, I've been chasing 20 meters for years and yeah, Sunday a week ago out at Kite beach, really nice session. Not particularly powered up at my133 react with these fins on the hillside edge. I have to say I've been doing a lot of practice in terms of getting my launches better and I've got The new Alpha V4 is an absolutely incredible jumper. But putting the whole package together I got my, I got 20 points six at Kite Beach a week ago and a small part of that was having some slightly different fin designs on my hillside edge. So there is, there is something there. I'm not going to say that like I probably could have jumped that 20 meters without them but like I'm, I'm leaving them on my, my at least my WU chasing board. I think though there's something there. So yeah there's a, there's definitely. There's been some developments and interesting enough, sue has just won a set of the portal fins from way in the Woo worlds. They're going to turn up in well sometime soon and I'll be interested to go out and test those as well. So I, let's come back next time.
- [43:02]
B
And talk as we'll ask you about the portals. That's cool. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:05]
A
So, so there's definitely something there for a techie guy like me, like yeah, okay. Like I didn't invent this but there's definitely some, there's definitely something in there. And if we come back to a techcast from a couple of years ago. Now where DK talks about kite boards, I specifically say in there that fins are a tuning device and you can change how your board rides by putting on different fins. These new generation of fins are another tuning device and you should try them. Yeah, I think there's, there's definitely, there's definitely something there. And as always it might not work for you in your location with your setup and I'm definitely not going to use them on my, my freestyle board. But specifically chasing glue scores, they're not doing me any harm.
- [43:53]
B
So dk, thanks mate again for a lot more information to the people out there putting questions, we still have so many to go. Loving that. When we start getting short we'll put another call out. But thanks again to everyone. Dk, thanks again for your time as usual and I will see you in probably three weeks in Cape Town.
- [44:09]
A
Oh, it's gonna be fantastic. But this is, this is what happens. Like woo. World starts, then it's like then cold, then the mega loop, then cold Hawaii, Wii World finishes. And it's like I noticed like Zara's flying into Cape Town this week. She's kind of like the first of the A list pros like I've seen who are, who are coming in but it's like we're in November in a week and it's like if the, the people who are serious about King of the Year are going to be here like and start training right away and actually it's very, very interesting like having a, that session I had at Kite Beach a week ago. It's dramatically different. The how the kickers are set up at Kite beach compared to Dolphin beach is, it's, it's a completely different setup and I think the, the riders who are smart are going to be training specifically at the, at the competition spot for the next, for the next month. I spend half my time riding that side and it's a, it's a different setup, it's different timing, the wave shape is different. It's. Yeah, it's, it's amazing how just the subtleties, 400, 500 meters apart, those two spots. So I think that's going to make quite a difference. So hey, I'm looking forward to it.
- [45:29]
B
Thanks dk.
- [45:31]
A
Cheers Adrian.
- [45:32]
B
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