Podcast Summary:

Know What You Believe with Michael Horton
Episode Title: Are Scripture and Tradition Both the Word of God?
Date: November 25, 2025

Main Theme:

This episode is part of the "Defending the Protestant Apologetics for Today" series and addresses a pivotal question: are Scripture and tradition both considered the Word of God? Dr. Michael Horton, Gavin Ortlund, and Dr. Jordan Cooper analyze the foundational Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, contrast it with Roman Catholic views on Scripture and tradition, and discuss the implications for Christian doctrine, authority, and church practice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Sola Scriptura and Common Misconceptions

• Misrepresentation:
  Dr. Jordan Cooper emphasizes that sola scriptura does not mean "just me and my Bible" or individual interpretation apart from the historic church (02:10).

  “Sola scriptura is really an issue of defining what is the primary authority that guides the theology and practice of the church. ... Doesn’t mean that we don’t value tradition... But they’re not infallible authority.” — Jordan Cooper (03:09)

• The Proper Sense of ‘Scripture Alone’:
  Dr. Horton highlights that ‘sola’ is an ablative: it means by scripture alone, not isolated from history or tradition (03:19).

  “There’s an assumption there that you can’t just cherry pick this out of its context, that it’s related to something else...” — Michael Horton (03:19)

2. Distinguishing Protestant and Roman Catholic Positions

• Roman Catholic View Clarified:
  Gavin Ortlund reads from the Catholic Catechism, explaining that in Catholic theology, both Scripture and tradition together convey God’s Word and that the magisterium interprets both (04:18).

  • Horton points out that in practice, tradition (as mediated by the magisterium) becomes the controlling authority (05:19).

  “At the end of the day, yes, Scripture is God breathed...but it is transmitted by tradition. And so really it is at the end of the day, tradition that is your only access to the word of God.” — Michael Horton (05:19)

• The Nature of Tradition:
  Cooper references Chemnitz’s analysis—there are many meanings of tradition, but in Roman Catholicism, tradition means what the current magisterium teaches, not simply the consensus of the Church Fathers (05:49).

  “It’s really the living magisterium that’s the authority over both of those things.” — Jordan Cooper (06:32)

3. Tradition in Scripture and Church History

• Equivocation on ‘Tradition’:
  Ortlund differentiates between apostolic tradition (as referenced in the New Testament) and later doctrinal developments, e.g., the Immaculate Conception (07:43, 09:51).

  “There’s a difference between a group of Christians saying, ‘Hey, the Apostle Paul told us to do X, Y and Z three weeks ago’... That’s different from me trying to sort through the Immaculate conception of Mary...” — Gavin Ortlund (08:24)

• Early Church Fathers’ View of Scripture:
  Horton quotes multiple patristic sources (Clement, Origen, Athanasius, Cyril, Chrysostom, Augustine, Ambrose, Gregory the Great) demonstrating the unique status of Scripture over Church tradition (11:30-14:38).

  “Athanasius: ‘the holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for all things.’” — Michael Horton (13:25)

4. The Uniqueness and Nature of Scripture

• Scripture’s Authority:
  Cooper stresses that both Testaments define Scripture as God-breathed, unique, and without parallel in tradition (16:29-19:29).

  “There’s nothing that indicates that kind of authority and uniqueness in its connection with the truths of God... You just don’t really have that in tradition. I think it’s hard to make an equivalency.” — Jordan Cooper (18:41)

• Analogy of Preaching and Tradition:
  Horton draws an analogy: like the sermon, tradition can be a vessel for the Word, but alone it is not infallible or uniquely inspired (20:21-22:12).

  “Tradition bears the word of God. It doesn’t transmit...Scripture is not a part of tradition. After the death of the apostles, it is a canon.” — Michael Horton (21:24)

5. Practical Consequences: Doctrine and Conscience

• Obligatory Dogmas:
  Ortlund highlights that Roman Catholic dogmas like the Immaculate Conception and papal infallibility are not plausibly apostolic, yet are binding for Catholics—displaying what’s at stake if sola scriptura is rejected (22:12-24:57).

  “So to me, I want to help our viewers understand a lot of these areas...are going to be where the practical fallout is for whether sola scriptura is embraced.” — Gavin Ortlund (23:38)

• Doctrine of Development:
  Horton and Cooper discuss the notion of doctrinal development (Newman), observing how it makes dogma flexible and the standards for truth unfalsifiable (25:25-30:05).

  “...the development hypothesis just makes it a bit frustrating in my view, doctrinal development.” — Jordan Cooper (29:51)

6. Soul Mediatorship of Christ and Mary’s Role

• Christ Alone:
  Horton stresses that adding mediators (Mary, saints) undermines Christ's sole mediation—a concern central to the Reformers (31:47).

  “The real critical issue...is what does this do with Christ’s sole mediation? Is it by Christ’s merits alone? That’s why by Scripture alone, I know Christ alone for me.” — Michael Horton (31:47)

• On-the-Ground Effects:
  Cooper and Ortlund raise concern that Catholic teaching on praying to saints, in practice, can supplant Christ's unique role and confuse ordinary believers (33:00-35:22).

  “I just don’t think that you can come away from those things thinking that, yes, this is the same thing as asking your friend to pray for you.” — Jordan Cooper (34:26)

7. The Canon of Scripture Objection

• ‘Fallible List of Infallible Books’:
  Ortlund addresses the classic Catholic critique: how Protestants discern the canon. He explains that in both the Old Testament and early church, the canon was recognized organically, not with infallible decrees (35:22-38:28).

  “The people of God can fallibly discern the Scriptures and yet recognize them for what they are, seems to have historical continuity with the Old Covenant era.” — Gavin Ortlund (36:27)

• Canon Recognized, Not Created:
  Horton notes the Jewish and early Christian recognition of Scripture, including the development of consensus over time (36:48-38:28).

  “They weren’t looking to make a canon. They were receiving a canon that was already in use practically in all the churches.” — Michael Horton (38:00)

• Chemnitz’s Distinction:
  Cooper underscores that recognizing a canon is not the same as granting ongoing infallible authority to a living magisterium (38:49-40:28).

  “To acknowledge one is not to acknowledge the other. They don’t necessitate one another.” — Jordan Cooper (39:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Misconceptions about Sola Scriptura:

  “So maybe I'll just start us off with one kind of popular misrepresentation...that you just kind of begin the process of studying theology by making your mind a kind of, I don't know, tabula rasa, right? ...That’s really not what sola scriptura means.” — Jordan Cooper (02:34)

• On the Authority of Tradition in Rome:

  “What really is meant by tradition is what is the current teaching of the Roman magisterium.” — Jordan Cooper (06:19)

• Summary of Patristic Attestation:

  “Athanasius: the holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for all things. Cyril: for...not even a casual statement can be delivered without the Holy Scriptures.” — Michael Horton (13:25–13:42)

• On Doctrinal Development:

  “The major difficulty with the idea of development is just that it's so amorphous, it's rootless. You can kind of define anything in that way...it just makes it so hard to interact with the truth claims because it makes it really unfalsifiable.” — Jordan Cooper (29:39)

• On the Core Issue:

  “It was the lens through which they saw all these other issues. With this crowd of Mary and the saints, you are basically stripping Christ of his sole mediation... It’s all in Christ.” — Michael Horton (32:05)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:10] – Defining sola scriptura and Protestant misconceptions
• [04:18] – Distinction between Catholic and Protestant views; Catholic Catechism reading
• [07:43] – Differences in the meaning and use of ‘tradition’
• [11:30] – Testimony of the Church Fathers on the primacy of Scripture
• [16:29] – Nature, authority, and uniqueness of Scripture
• [22:12] – Practical consequences: Dogmas, Mariology, and papacy
• [27:39] – History and problems of doctrinal development
• [31:47] – What’s at stake: Christ’s sole mediation
• [33:47] – Prayer to saints and popular Catholic practice
• [35:22] – Protestant answers on canon formation
• [38:49] – The logic of recognizing, not creating, a canon

Final Thoughts

The episode provides a robust defense of sola scriptura, emphasizes the critical difference between apostolic tradition and later doctrinal accretions, and highlights why the Reformation continues to matter for Christian life and faith. The hosts encourage further exploration of these questions and flag upcoming episodes for deeper discussion.

Upcoming:

• Next installment in the series to be released on Dr. Jordan Cooper’s channel.