Gnosticism: A Better Spirituality for Skeptics? Michael Horton Responds to Alex O’Connor and Justin Sledge

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Gnosticism: A Better Spirituality for Skeptics? Michael Horton Responds to Alex O’Connor and Justin Sledge

Host: Michael Horton
Episode Date: July 31, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Know What You Believe, Michael Horton critically examines the contemporary fascination with Gnosticism, contrasting it with orthodox Christianity. The discussion is structured as a response to a conversation between atheist YouTuber Alex O’Connor (Cosmic Skeptic) and Dr. Justin Sledge, a scholar and advocate of mysticism and Gnosticism. Horton explores why modern skeptics and the "spiritual but not religious" crowd find Gnostic ideas appealing, and he offers a robust defense of historical Christian orthodoxy, its handling of evil, and its relationship with matter, creation, and scripture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Appeal of Gnosticism for Skeptics

• Alex O’Connor describes the "intrigue" of Gnosticism, likening its appeal to the allure of secret knowledge, as popularized by works like The Da Vinci Code.
• He notes its historical legitimacy: Gnosticism wasn’t just fringe; actual Christian communities once held these views.
• O’Connor finds Gnosticism "a much more attractive prospect than the Christianity that we’ve inherited," especially for those troubled by classic critiques of Christianity—the problem of evil, divine hiddenness, and Old Testament violence.

  "It seems to me a much more attractive prospect than the Christianity that we’ve inherited… a lot of my criticisms of Christianity… have to do with things like the problem of evil and divine hiddenness and pointing to Old Testament atrocities." — Alex O’Connor [02:24]

Gnosticism's Response to the Problem of Evil

• Horton points out that Gnosticism attributes evil to matter itself—making the physical world a cosmic mistake created by a lesser, even malevolent, deity.
• Gnosticism, Horton argues, is therefore "anti-nature, anti-body, anti-creation, and anti the God of creation."
• The Gnostic solution is, in Horton’s view, "a total rejection of Christian hope, which looks forward to the resurrection of the body rather than escape from matter."

  "Their answer was matter. That the reason there is evil in the world is because there’s matter in the world. And the God of the Old Testament who created matter is the evil God...It’s very anti nature, anti body, anti creation and anti the God of creation religion." — Michael Horton [02:55]

The Structure and Community of Early Gnosticism

• Contrary to the perception of Gnosticism as merely another flavor of ancient Christianity, Horton and the guest scholar point out that Gnostic movements were fragmented, often named after individual leaders, with little unity—unlike the early orthodox "great church," which rallied around canonical scriptures.

  "There was absolutely no agreement among these Gnostic groups...they picked their own psychopomp to represent their own theology...but they all referred to the great church." — Michael Horton [03:46]

Orthodox Christianity’s Defining Features

• The early church’s unity was grounded in the canon of Scripture, providing a "rule" for orthodoxy.
• Gnostics relied on various oral traditions and claimed new revelations; their "Gnostic Gospels" explicitly responded against or contradicted canonical texts.
• Even outsider critics of Christianity, like Celsus, recognized the substantial difference between Gnostics and the church.

Why Gnosticism Made Sense to Greeks—but Not to Christians

• Horton and his guests argue that Gnosticism, with its dualism and suspicion of the body, resonated with Hellenistic philosophical traditions.

  "Gnosticism made sense to Greeks, Christianity didn’t. Christianity stuck out like a sore thumb." — Michael Horton [05:43]

The Challenge of Reconciling Materialism and Gnostic Thought

• Horton questions how modern materialist atheists, like O’Connor, can find Gnostic ideas appealing if they deny anything beyond the material world.

  "If you’re a materialist, how can you say, as the Gnostics did, that matter isn’t real or that matter is evil? If you believe that matter is all there is, then you mean all there is is evil." — Michael Horton [06:19]

Dualism—A Solution or Problem?

• Guest Scholar (unnamed) admits Gnostic dualism provides a concrete explanation for evil, but at great cost: demeaning the body and making a positive view of creation or ecology impossible.

  "Dualism in general is an attractive solution at first. I think it creates more problems than it solves...can you have an ecologically positive idea about, you know, saving the planet or taking care of your body, if all matter is fundamentally evil?" — Guest Scholar [06:52]

• The same guest notes even pagans (like Plotinus) rejected Gnosticism for its radical dualism.

Historical Reality: Size and Influence of Gnostic Groups

• The discussion underscores that Gnostic teachers like Valentinus and Marcion did come close to positions of authority, but were ultimately pushed out as heretics once their ideas were scrutinized.

  "Irenaeus wrote his book because Valentinus nearly became the Bishop of Rome." — Guest Scholar [07:41] "Valentinus certainly almost got the moderatorship of the presbytery. He tried to worm his way into it, but he too was pushed out of leadership." — Michael Horton [09:00]

The Messiness of Church History

• Guest Scholar reminds listeners that "history is messy," and that early Christianity, like all communities, contained controversies and offshoots. There is a temptation to impose a neat narrative or teleology, but reality is more complex.
• Horton agrees about the messiness but insists a scriptural, orthodox core was already established—Gnosticism was seen as a departure, not just a variant.

  "From the very beginning, Christianity was defined over against these heresies. And so it’s not a teleology, it’s not imposing some kind of anachronistic picture." — Michael Horton [11:54]

The Reliability and Defining Role of Scripture

• Horton references Bruce Metzger, who argued that the church fathers’ writings could almost entirely reconstruct the New Testament, underscoring the authority and unity provided by the scriptural canon.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alex O’Connor [02:24]:
  "It seems to me a much more attractive prospect than the Christianity that we’ve inherited…I talk about this kind of stuff all the time."

• Michael Horton [03:18]:
  "It’s very anti-nature, anti-body, anti-creation and anti the God of creation religion. That’s why it was never accepted in Christianity."

• Guest Scholar [06:52]:
  "Gnostic dualism…is an attractive solution at first. I think it creates more problems than it solves…"

• Michael Horton [06:19]:
  "How, if you’re a materialist, can you say, as the Gnostics did, that matter isn’t real or that matter is evil?"

• Michael Horton [10:43]:
  "There was an orthodoxy before the Gnostics came along that was defined by the scriptural canon, and therefore there could be a rule for judging Gnosticism to be antithetical…to the teaching of the New Testament."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:54–02:54: Alex O'Connor describes the allure of Gnosticism for skeptics
• 02:55–05:59: Horton critiques Gnosticism’s solution to the problem of evil, outlines orthodox response
• 06:19–06:52: Horton challenges the coherence of materialist attraction to anti-materialist Gnostic views
• 06:52–08:36: Guest Scholar discusses dualism, its problems, and the historical strength of Gnostic communities
• 09:00–10:43: Horton and Guest Scholar clarify historical leadership roles and the emergence of orthodoxy
• 10:43–11:54: Debating whether orthodoxy is a later imposition or an original feature

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Tone & Language

• Dialogues are thoughtful, respectful, and scholarly—though engaged with clear apologetic intent.
• Horton offers firm defenses of orthodoxy but affirms the need for humility and honesty about the "messiness" of church history.

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Takeaway

This episode provides a nuanced historical and theological critique of modern Gnostic sympathies. Horton cautions that Gnosticism’s answer to evil—demonizing matter and retreating from creation—is irreconcilable with both Christianity’s core doctrines and the experience of embodiment. He argues that orthodox Christianity’s commitment to the goodness of creation, the reliability of scripture, and the hope of bodily resurrection mark it as irrevocably distinct from both ancient Gnosticism and today’s "spiritual but not religious" movements.

Transcript

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[Mike Horton]

Hi, my name is Mike Horton and I teach theology and apologetics. And you know, somebody I've really gotten to like lately is Alex o'. Connor. Love watching his interviews and his reasoning skills. He's an atheist, but he really has some fantastic insights into some of the problems that atheism has as well. He's interviewing in this program we're going to take a look at Dr. Justin Sledge. Dr. Sledge is an advocate of Gnosticism and mysticism and magic and so forth. So we're going to take a look at what Alex o' Connor thinks of this take on things.

[Alex O'Connor]

I must say that the more I learn about Gnosticism and it's always been like adjacent to the stuff that I've been doing, but I've never really done a deep dive, but I've been trying to learn as much as I can recently about it. And my friend recently said to me that a lot of this is interesting for the same reason the Da Vinci Code was, was so popular. There's this sort of secret, you know, knowledge. And you sort of have to resist a little bit against that because it is a bit, it is a bit fun, it is a bit sort of radical and interesting. But I must say that also realizing that there were some significant Christian communities who believed this, this wasn't some kind of crazy heretic who gets condemned. These are like communities of people who really think this is the way to interpret the existence of God and Jesus. I must say that, like, it seems to me a much more attractive prospect than the Christianity that we've inherited. I mean, a lot of my criticisms of Christianity and a lot of the reasons why I would say that it doesn't make sense to Me as a worldview have to do with things like the problem of evil and divine hiddenness and pointing to Old Testament atrocities. I talk about this kind of stuff all the time.

[Mike Horton]

The problem with Gnosticism is its answer to the problem of evil. Their answer was matter. That the reason there is evil in the world is because there's matter in the world. And the God of the Old Testament who created matter is the evil God. We're not looking for the resurrection of the body, looking forward rather to our divine self within us, finally escaping this prison house of flesh. It's very anti nature, anti body, anti creation and anti the God of creation religion. That's why it was never accepted in Christianity. Gnostics themselves referred to the great church, which they thought was filled with reprobates. They didn't have the higher knowledge that they had from these supposed revelations that their favorite prophet received supposedly from Jesus or John or Mary and so forth. There was absolutely no agreement among these Gnostic groups because they picked their own psychopomp to represent their own theology. And they were never organized into any group. They were called after the names of their leaders and soon they would die out and another one would take their place. But they all referred to the great church. There was an Orthodox church, a church that was gathered around the Scriptures, around the Gospel. They had a canon, which means a rule, the Holy Scriptures. And that was the only basis for their unity. That's what held them together as one church. Those scriptures. The Gnostics claimed that these various oral traditions that came down from their favorite disciple were additions, were revelations beyond the Bible. They also believed they were against the New Testament, the Gnostic Gospels, quote the canonical Gospels and then say, but it's not like that. So it isn't as if there were Christian communities that were kind of broad and sort of like today where you have everything from a liberal to conservative. And the Gnostics were considered heretics, even pagans in the second century, like Celsus, philosopher who really disliked Christianity immensely, distinguished between the Gnostics and the Christians. A lot of people today who basically are are ex Christians and they're scholars, maybe they were raised Roman Catholic or Protestant or what, but they are spiritual but not religious. And they use their scholarship to try to make Christianity one option among many in the ancient world. And that just isn't the case. Christianity stuck out like a sore thumb. Gnosticism didn't. Gnosticism made sense to Greeks, Christianity didn't.

[Alex O'Connor]

And all of that kind of melts away if you can just attribute all of that to a creator demiurge and say that Jesus cuts through. It's fascinating and troubling and really interesting. And hopefully to those listening who have been interested in this little bit at the end here, it's something that we'll be diving into a lot more.

[Mike Horton]

I find it really intriguing that I believe Alex o' Connor is a materialist. He's an atheist would ordinarily make someone a materialist. But how, if you're a materialist, how can you say, as the Gnostics did, that matter isn't real or that matter is evil? If you believe that matter is all there is, then you mean all there is is evil.

[Guest Scholar]

Gnostic dualism, dualism in general is an attractive solution at first. I think it creates more problems than it. It solves or it creates another set of problems where now the world is evil and human bodies are bad. And, you know, that's, you know, you know, can you have an ecologically positive idea about, you know, saving the planet or taking care of your body? If you're. All matter is fundamentally evil, it generates another set of problems. And in fact, even other pagans didn't like Gnosticism. Plotinus wrote a whole book against them because he thought they really missed the mark. It does solve at least the problem of evil. It does provide an elegant solution to the problem of evil in a way that feels much more tactile than Augustine's solution that evil is just deprivation, it's not really real. That doesn't go tell someone who've been violently attacked that what they're experiencing as a privation, it's not going to really land. But Gnostic solution does give some better chops to it. And to your point earlier, these are big communities. I mean, Irenaeus wrote his book because Valentinus nearly became the Bishop of Rome.

[Alex O'Connor]

Yeah, Valentinus, that is the sort of classic Gnostic writer and important thinker.

[Guest Scholar]

Marcion also tried to kind of bribe his way to becoming high up in the Church, ultimately took his toys and went home.

[Mike Horton]

Marcion didn't take his toys and go home. He actually gave a lot of land. He was from a shipbuilding family and had a lot of wealth. And when he became a Christian, he gave much of his land to the Church. And once he took up his heresy, the Church excommunicated him and gave him his money back.

[Guest Scholar]

We should not overstate what it means to be Bishop of Rome in the second century. It's not like the Pope in the same way that the Pope is the Pope now. But it wasn't nothing. And the fact that Valentinus had a real shot at becoming the bishop of rome in the 2nd century and the 140s, I think that should tell us that these are not one off weirdo people secretly scribbling crazy stuff.

[Mike Horton]

Peter Lamp, by the way, L A M P E has written the definitive study of this whole era in Rome. It's called Paul to Valentinus. Christians at Rome in the first two centuries. It really hits the mark here and it shows that there were no bishops at this time. And Valentinus certainly almost got the moderatorship of the presbytery. He tried to worm his way into it, but he too was pushed out of leadership. And it took a while for people to realize what this was. It was new and strange. And they still called themselves Christians, but they were Gnostic Christians, Christians in the know, rather than Christians who merely preach Christ and him crucified, as they would say. The main point here is there. There were no popes, there were no bishops in the first two centuries of the Church.

[Guest Scholar]

Now these are whole communities of people for whom these stories were theologically important and meaningful. And it's a form of Christianity that. And again, I don't have a dog in the fight of which Christianity I'm rooting for, because I'm not rooting for any of them particularly. But I do think that a history that leaves out the mess isn't really a history. History is messy and we should be unsurprised that the history of Christianity is actually quite messy. And when we sort of impose upon it a teleology that it was always going to go a certain kind of way, then we totally distort what it is that we're studying. This is the same true of Judaism.

[Mike Horton]

Yeah, right. He's absolutely right about study of history. You can't impose a teleology. This is where it should go. So this is where, like the march of history, you know, from superstition to science and that's those big narratives. Absolutely. History is messy. But the point is there was an orthodoxy before the Gnostics came along that was defined by the scriptural canon. And therefore there could be a rule for judging Gnosticism to be antithetical, first of all, to the teaching of the New Testament. But also in addition to the New Testament, which the ancient church rejected, the canon is closed, the New Testament is complete. This is our scriptures. Did you know Bruce Metzger at Princeton once said that if all of the manuscripts, if all of the copies of the New Testament had been lost, we could still reconstruct the entire New Testament from the writings of the Church fathers. That's how the Scriptures defined what the great Church was. And the Gnostics simply said those writings aren't true. They don't tell you the higher truth, which is that Jesus didn't come in the flesh. John writes in first John Whoever says he didn't come in the flesh is Antichrist. So we're already dealing with this in the New Testament era. From the very beginning, Christianity was defined over against these heresies. And so it's not a teleology, it's not imposing some kind of anachronistic picture. This is where it should have ended up. The Council of Nicaea is that the Council of Nicaea and all of the other councils that outlined where the guardrails are here were logical next steps from what had always been the orthodox position. And the Gnostics themselves recognized that and didn't want any part of the great church.

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