Podcast Summary

Know What You Believe with Michael Horton
Episode: Reformers or Revolutionaries? Why the Church Needed the Reformation
Date: October 31, 2025
Guests: Dr. Gavin Ortland, Dr. Jordan Cooper
Host: Dr. Michael Horton

Overview

This episode kicks off a six-part series called "Defending the Reformation: Protestant Apologetics for Today." Dr. Horton is joined by Dr. Gavin Ortland and Dr. Jordan Cooper to address a central historical and theological question: Was the Protestant Reformation a necessary reform, or was it an unfortunate revolution that fractured the unity of the Church? Together, they explore the division within the late medieval Church, the true nature and aims of the Reformers, the difference between magisterial reform and revolution, and the legacy of the Reformation for today’s Church.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Myth of Pre-Reformation Unity

• Romanticizing the Past and Church Unity
  • Dr. Ortland challenges the notion of a unified pre-Reformation Church, highlighting deep existing schisms, like that between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.
  • He explains that each side saw the other as outside salvation:

    "...the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics in the medieval era looked across the way at each other and saw the other side as outside of the one true Church... Protestantism comes along. It doesn't divide a church that's united, it inherits a divided church."
    (Dr. Gavin Ortland, 02:33)

  • The Reformers envisioned unity less as a matter of institutional uniformity and more in terms of spiritual and doctrinal truth.

2. Reform vs. Revolution

• Conservative Reformation vs. Radical Change
  • Dr. Cooper introduces the distinction, via Charles Porterfield Krauth, between conserving the valuable heritage of the past and the need for periodic reform:

    "We want to move to a dead traditionalism on one hand, but on the other hand, we don't want to move toward this radical revolution that just says... everything is just change. We need to just change everything."
    (Dr. Jordan Cooper, 05:46)

  • The magisterial Reformers (Luther, Calvin, etc.) aimed for a "conservative Reformation." Radical reformers, like the Anabaptists, wanted to start over from scratch.

3. Historical Corruption and Calls for Reform

• Divisions and Corruption Before Luther
  • The episode details widespread pre-Reformation abuses: the Western Schism, papal excommunications, moral and ritual corruption, and bitter disputes over authority.
  • Host quotes Pope Benedict XVI on the uncertainty and corruption within the Church prior to the Reformation:

    "...for nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another... The true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution."
    (Host quoting Pope Benedict XVI, 10:03)

  • Reform was not novel; voices like Erasmus and earlier "proto-reformers" (Jan Hus, John Wycliffe, the Lollards, Waldensians) long called for deep changes, often at grave personal risk.

4. The Legacy and Unique Factors of the Protestant Reformation

• Literacy, Theological Inquiry, and the Ordinary Christian
  • The panel emphasizes that the spread of literacy, lay theological study, and open doctrinal debate—central to modern Christianity—are legacies of the Reformation.
  • Dr. Ortland connects Protestantism with "the ability to come together and have an open clash of ideas," noting how this contrasts with earlier persecution of dissenters (e.g., five crusades against the Hussites).

5. Luther’s Role and the Accidental Reformer

• Luther in Context
  • Dr. Cooper describes Luther as an "accidental reformer" shaped more by the situation and his sense of vocational calling than revolutionary zeal:

    "Luther never meant to make any kind of controversial stance... nothing that Luther taught at this time went against any official church teaching... So that's really all Luther himself was doing at this time. He was kind of an accidental reformer, really."
    (Dr. Jordan Cooper, 20:08 & 21:50)

  • Luther’s reforms emerged gradually, shaped by his circle at Wittenberg and later theological developments (notably, justification through faith), and not as a solitary inspiration.

6. Why Not Stay and Reform from Within?

• The Impossibility of Internal Reform
  • Dr. Ortland addresses the common argument that Reformers should have stayed within the Church:

    "There can be a naivety in this idea of, oh, just stay. Work from within, work incrementally... entities being protested, we believe are not of divine institution."
    (Dr. Gavin Ortland, 27:51)

  • The Reformers were expelled or excommunicated for their protests; had the papacy permitted gospel preaching, they would have remained (Dr. Cooper, 30:45).

7. Council of Trent: A Turning Point in Church Identity

• “The Roman Church Became the Roman Church”
  • Dr. Horton and guests argue that the post-Tridentine Roman Church, with its dogmatic definitions and anathematizations (especially on justification and Scripture), is fundamentally different from the pre-Tridentine, more diverse medieval Church.
  • Dr. Cooper observes:

    "The Council of Trent was so comprehensive in its declarations... that it really reforms the Church in such a significant way that it's really not exactly, precisely the same kind of entity that it really is prior to that."
    (Dr. Jordan Cooper, 34:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the real nature of pre-Reformation unity:
  "Protestantism comes along. It doesn't divide a church that's united, it inherits a divided church."
  (Dr. Gavin Ortland, 02:33)

• On romanticizing the past:
  "We have a tendency to look at the problems in our world today and then look back at a time that didn’t have the particular issues that we face. And then we idealize that period of time."
  (Dr. Jordan Cooper, 04:55)

• Calvin's conservative aim:
  “We are only trying to renew that ancient form of the Church that has been distorted by illiterate men and was afterwards mangled and almost destroyed by the Roman pontiff and his faction.”
  (Host quoting Calvin, 17:33)

• On the climate for dissent before the Reformation:
  “The Roman Catholic hierarchy waged five distinct crusades against the Hussites alone, let alone other proto-Protestant groups. It was a savage time. It was absolutely brutal.”
  (Dr. Gavin Ortland, 14:03)

• On Luther’s sense of calling:
  "Luther was called by his ecclesiastical superior... When Luther became a doctor, the doctorate was awarded. He saw this as an external call... He was prepared, he was trained. He wasn't just a random person that just said, I’ve got a burning in my bosom."
  (Dr. Jordan Cooper, 24:44)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:33] The myth of pre-Reformation unity; the real state of schisms before Protestantism (Ortland).
• [05:46] Revolution vs. conservative reform—Magisterial vs. Radical Reformation (Cooper).
• [10:03] Pope Benedict XVI on the chaos and loss of certainty in the Western Schism (Host).
• [14:03] The brutality endured by proto-reformers (Ortland).
• [17:33] Calvin’s explanation of Reformation as restoration, not revolution (Host quoting Calvin).
• [20:08–21:50] Luther as reluctant, vocationally-called reformer, not a fanatic (Cooper).
• [27:51] Can reform happen from within? The impossibility for Luther and Melanchthon (Ortland).
• [34:16] How the Council of Trent reshaped the Roman Church (Cooper).

Conclusion

The episode paints the Reformation not as the reckless act of revolutionaries, but as a necessary reform that responded to deep-rooted division, corruption, and need for renewal in the Western Church. The hosts make a careful distinction between magisterial reformation aimed at theological and ecclesiastical health and radical reformation that would wipe out tradition altogether. The pre-existing divisions and crises are emphasized, as is the point that the Reformation’s most lasting contributions—access to Scripture, open theological debate, and re-centering on biblical teaching—shape the Christian experience to this day.

The episode closes with a teaser for the next part, which will examine authority and Scripture in the Reformation and clarify common misunderstandings about Protestant beliefs on church authority.