The Story Behind the Heidelberg Catechism with R. Scott Clark

Summary

Podcast Summary

Know What You Believe with Michael Horton

Episode: The Story Behind the Heidelberg Catechism with R. Scott Clark
Date: January 20, 2026
Guest: R. Scott Clark (Professor of Church History & Historical Theology, Westminster Seminary California)

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the historical, theological, and practical significance of the Heidelberg Catechism—a foundational document for Reformed churches—through an engaging conversation between host Michael Horton and Church historian R. Scott Clark. The discussion highlights the catechism’s origins, structure, and enduring importance as a guide for Christian faith and life. The episode also explores how the catechism meets pastoral needs, its roots in Reformation history, and contemporary misperceptions about Reformed theology.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins of Clark's Commentary and the Heidelberg Catechism (01:38 – 04:23)

• Clark’s Motivation: Started as a series of blog posts for a church plant, evolving into a comprehensive, 1000-page commentary.

• Purpose: To connect the catechism with its historical context, particularly the challenges and issues facing the modern church.

  “I committed a crime against a lot of trees is what I did.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (01:38)

• Heidelberg’s Brevity and Significance: Only 129 questions and answers, yet remarkably influential as both instruction and devotional guide.

  “Millions of Christians have found it a really invaluable summary of the Christian faith.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (03:09)

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2. Historical Context & Principal Authors (04:23 – 09:44)

• Background of Authors:

  • Zacharias Ursinus: Former Lutheran, trained under Melanchthon, adopted Reformed views after Melanchthon’s death.
  • Caspar Olivianus: Contributor, remembered for his daring (and nearly tragic) boat story involving the local prince—an event that eventually brought him to Heidelberg.

• Frederick III’s Political and Spiritual Motivation:

  • The Palatinate region shifted religious affiliations repeatedly (Catholic → Lutheran → Reformed) based on rulers’ convictions.
  • Need for Catechism: To provide clarity and pastoral comfort amid religious confusion and transitions.

  “Your religion is not something you choose, it’s something that’s chosen for you.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (08:27)

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3. The Heart of the Catechism: Comfort in Life and Death (09:44 – 12:00)

• Opening Emphasis:

  • The catechism starts with the question: “What is your only comfort in life and in death?”
  • Key Concept: Comfort/trust—intended to help ordinary believers navigate a harsh, uncertain world.

  “He really wanted them to know what gets you out of bed during the day and what allows you to go to sleep at night.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (09:46)

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4. Theological Structure: Guilt, Grace, and Gratitude (12:00 – 14:16)

• Central Structure: The catechism (like Romans) is organized around guilt (sin), grace (salvation), and gratitude (obedience).

• Pastoral Value: Order matters—one can’t appreciate grace without knowledge of guilt.

  “Before you can appreciate grace, you have got to know your sin.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (12:59)

• Salvation is not contingent on performance:

  • “My Christian life isn’t contingent on my performance, my salvation isn’t contingent on my performance...” (13:38)

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5. Law and Gospel Distinction (14:16 – 15:33)

• Not Just a 'Lutheran Thing':

  • Both Lutheran and Reformed traditions share the fundamental distinction between Law and Gospel.

• Shared Reformation Heritage:

  • Ursinus and Olivianus both insist that all of Scripture is about Law and Gospel.

  “This is a shared Reformation heritage... Without it, you don’t have a Reformation.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (15:03)

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6. The 'Third Use' of the Law (15:33 – 16:28)

• Common Misunderstanding:

  • Some think ‘third use’ (the Law as a guide for Christian living) is exclusively Reformed, but Melanchthon (Lutheran) coined the term.

• Role of Law:

  • For Christians, the Law doesn’t condemn but guides.

  “The law does not come in the third use to condemn us... now that we’re in Christ, it doesn’t condemn us anymore.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (15:57)

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7. Covenant Theology in the Catechism (16:28 – 19:17)

• Ursinus & the Covenant of Works:
  • Developed ideas of a pre-Fall covenant with Adam (“covenant of nature,” later “covenant of works”).
• Correlates Law/Gospel with Covenant:
  • The distinction between Law and Gospel aligns with the covenant of works (before the Fall) and covenant of grace (after the Fall).

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8. Justification: Heidelberg’s Unmatched Clarity (19:17 – 22:29)

• Question 60 as a Summary of the Gospel:

  • The catechism’s articulation of justification is clear, realistic, and deeply pastoral.

  “If you grew up with that stuff in your bones, you would know what the gospel is.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (20:14)

• Catechism as a Standard for Preaching:

  • Example given of elders successfully challenging a sermon based on the catechism’s teaching.

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9. Relationship of Catechism to Scripture (22:29 – 24:15)

• Catechism is Scriptural Synthesis, Not Replacement:
  • The catechism distills and summarizes the Bible’s teaching.
• Role in Church Life:
  • “The Bible is a very big book...the catechism gives people a way to understand the Scripture.” (23:47)

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10. Reformed Piety vs. Pietism (24:15 – 27:13)

• Distinction:

  • Reformed piety: Ordinary faithfulness—love for God, neighbor, and Word—rooted in gratitude.
  • Pietism: Inward legalism, experience-based assurance which can become burdensome.

  “It’s okay to be an ordinary Christian. You don’t have to be a super Christian.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (25:43)

• Sanctification’s Realism:

  • Even the holiest only make a beginning; comfort for sensitive consciences without excusing complacency.

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11. Prayer and the Fatherhood of God (27:13 – 29:38)

• Lord’s Prayer as Devotional Guide:

  • Refutes those who forbid its use; catechism instructs believers in its practical use.

• God’s Favor and Assurance:

  • Emphasis on measuring one’s sanctification by God’s promises, not subjective experiences.

  “A lot of the Christian life is becoming convinced that God is not against you.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (28:56)

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12. Misconceptions about “Being Reformed” (29:38 – 33:24)

• TULIP is Not the Whole Story:
  • Many assume being “Reformed” is about the five points of Calvinism (TULIP), but the Heidelberg emphasizes broader aspects.
• Soteriology is “Assumed,” not Centralized:
  • Predestination and election are present, but not foregrounded.
• True Reformed Faith is Pastoral and Comprehensive:
  • Not defined by abrasive online personalities, but by the richness of confessions like Heidelberg.

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13. Church, Sacraments, and the Wider Reformation (33:24 – 37:54)

• Reformed vs. Anabaptist Distinctions:
  • The catechism and Reformers positioned themselves between Rome and Anabaptists, always emphasizing justification by faith alone.
• Emphasis on Sacraments:
  • Many more questions on sacraments than on election, refuting modern reduction of Reformed theology to “just” the doctrines of grace.

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14. Legacy and Aspiration for the Commentary (37:54 – 39:16)

• Clark’s Hope:

  • The commentary will lead more people—families, pastors, catechism teachers—to directly use and benefit from the Heidelberg Catechism in instruction and devotion.

  “If it helps preachers, helps elders, helps catechism teachers, helps Christians, that would be great.”
  – R. Scott Clark, (38:19)

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Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I committed a crime against a lot of trees is what I did.”
  – Scott Clark on writing his commentary, (01:38)

• “Millions of Christians have found it a really invaluable summary of the Christian faith.”
  – Scott Clark, (03:09)

• “Your religion is not something you choose, it’s something that’s chosen for you.”
  – Scott Clark, (08:27)

• “He really wanted them to know what gets you out of bed during the day and what allows you to go to sleep at night.”
  – Scott Clark, (09:46)

• “Before you can appreciate grace, you have got to know your sin.”
  – Scott Clark, (12:59)

• “This is a shared Reformation heritage... Without it, you don't have a Reformation.”
  – Scott Clark, referring to the law/gospel distinction, (15:03)

• “If you grew up with that stuff in your bones, you would know what the gospel is.”
  – Scott Clark, (20:14)

• “It’s okay to be an ordinary Christian. You don’t have to be a super Christian.”
  – Scott Clark, (25:43)

• “A lot of the Christian life is becoming convinced that God is not against you.”
  – Scott Clark, (28:56)

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Important Segments (Timestamps)

• Clark’s journey to writing the commentary: (01:38 – 04:23)
• Historical background of Heidelberg Catechism: (04:23 – 09:44)
• Pastoral purpose—comfort in life and death: (09:44 – 12:00)
• The “guilt, grace, gratitude” structure: (12:00 – 14:16)
• Law/gospel distinction & third use of the law: (14:16 – 16:28)
• Covenant theology’s role in the catechism: (16:28 – 19:17)
• Pastoral impact of justification (Question 60): (19:17 – 22:29)
• Catechism’s relationship to the Bible: (22:29 – 24:15)
• Distinctive Reformed piety vs. Pietism: (24:15 – 27:13)
• Prayer and assurance of God’s fatherhood: (27:13 – 29:38)
• What “Reformed” really means: (29:38 – 33:24)
• The catechism on church, sacraments, and Anabaptists: (33:24 – 37:54)
• Goals and legacy of the new commentary: (37:54 – 39:16)

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Conclusion

This episode provides a rich exploration of the Heidelberg Catechism’s historical genesis, doctrinal substance, and ongoing value for the church. R. Scott Clark demystifies misconceptions, emphasizes its pastoral warmth, and encourages listeners to recover the catechism’s clarity, balance, and comfort for present-day faith and life. If you’re seeking a grounded, engaging tour of Reformed Christianity’s heart—and a renewed appreciation for “ordinary” Christian faithfulness—this is an episode not to miss.

Transcript

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[Mike Horton]

We don't want to live in the village Green. At the end of the day, we can all leave and return to our houses of worship. But our goal is to encourage conversational theology in the village green where we can rub shoulders with Christians from different traditions and. Hello and welcome to another edition of Know what yout Believe. I'm Mike Horton and I'm here with my good friend Scott Clark, who is professor of church History and Historical Theology at Westminster Seminary, California. He has his own podcast, the Heidel Blog, which is fantastic. Highly recommend you to check that out. And he's written a number of books, but this one is his newest, A Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism, a 1000 page commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism. Scott, why did you do it?

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, I committed a crime against a lot of trees is what I did. So I was helping with a church plant in Oceanside and Danny Hyde, who was the church planting pastor, had started a blog and he said, would you write on this? And so I did. And then one thing led to another and so I started the Heidel blog and I thought I wanted to focus on Heidelberg Catechism just to draw attention to it, to try to get people to read the catechism. And so I started writing about the catechism and I kept doing it and then after a while I thought, well, this is kind of turning into something. And so I, I got a little more serious about it and then gathered it up and I sent it off to the then publisher, Brandon Ellis. He said, yeah, I'll, I'll publish this. And they worked on it a little bit, they sent it back and then I looked at it and I thought, oh, this is too much like what already exists. So they gave me grace to sort of rework it and to make it into what it is, because I thought we ought to have something that, you know, really grounds the catechism in history, in its history, the broader Christian history, and that, you know, does a Number of things applies it to, you know, where we are, the issues that we're facing now. So, you know, that's, that's how it grew up.

[Mike Horton]

So the Heidelberg Catechism isn't that long?

[Scott Clark]

No, it's 129 questions and answers.

[Mike Horton]

And some people would say we don't need a catechism, much less a commentary, a thousand page commentary on the catechism. Why do you think the Heidelberg in particular is so important?

[Scott Clark]

Well, I mean, personally, it's what I learned, that's how I came into the Reformed churches, was essentially through the Heidelberg Catechism and that was my introduction to the Reformed faith. So for me personally, it's very important. But millions of Christians have found it a really invaluable summary of the Christian faith. Faith. It opens with a wonderful summary of the faith and it does all the things that you need, a little book of questions and answers, a little book of Christian instruction to do, even serves, not just as an instructional book, but as a guide for devotions, a way to introduce your children to the faith. It does so many things as a guide to preaching. It was meant to be used as a guide for the evening sermon in the Reformed churches. So in the providence of God, a lot of things came together in the writing of the catechism. Even though the principal authors and editors were fairly young, they drew on a lot of wonderful texts and did a very good job of synthesizing a number of things to make this, I think, a, if not uniquely, a particularly valuable articulation of the Christian faith that is accessible to almost anyone.

[Mike Horton]

And you did your doctoral dissertation on one of the authors?

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, so I worked on Caspar Olivianus and he is a contributor, probably not a major author, but he contributed question 80 most famously. And then probably one other question.

[Mike Horton]

What's the historical background here? Zacharias or Zinas is a former Lutheran. Right. He was trained by Melanchthon.

[Scott Clark]

That's right. So he studied at Wittenberg and was with Melanchthon, one of his students, for about seven years. And so really enmeshed in confessional Lutheran theology, piety and practice. It's interesting, we don't entirely clearly know everything that transpired as he became Reformed, but about the time Melanchthon died in 1560, he makes a break with his, in some ways with his Lutheran past, not altogether. And that's evident in the, in the Heidelberg Catechism, he travels around a couple of different times. He even actually had a little autograph book and he collected autographs from all of these famous figures whom he got to meet. So he was aware that he was with a lot of, you know, Bullinger and Beza and lots of other influential people. And he'd obviously spent years, you know, with Melanchthon.

[Mike Horton]

And he almost drowned the prince.

[Scott Clark]

Right. No, different story altogether. That's Olivianus and some of the boys. Frederick, who was. Who became the Elector of the Palatinate, the governor of the. Of a district in the empire. So when Olivianus and the Elector's oldest son were together at university in Bourges, some of the boys went out drinking. And Olivianus wasn't drinking, but the prince was and the manservant wasn't, the valet or valet wasn't. And the boys, some of the boys got in a boat and had had too much to drink. They started rocking the boat, boat tipped over, and Olivianus and the valet jumped in to save the prince failed. But Frederick would later remember Olivianus's attempt to save his son. And that's ultimately how Olivianus got to Heidelberg. He was actually in jail, not for any criminal activity, but because he'd been preaching the Reformed faith. And when the Roman Catholic elector came back to town, this is in Trier, he threw him in jail, he and his buddies. And then Frederick found out about it and bailed him out and brought him to Heidelberg.

[Mike Horton]

What was behind Frederick iii' concern to have a distinctly Reformed catechism in his part of Germany.

[Scott Clark]

So there were two legal religions in the Empire, technically the Holy Roman Empire, but as Voltaire said, it was neither holy nor Roman nor Empire, but otherwise it was great. So there were two legal religions. One is the Evangelist or the Lutheran, and the other is Roman Catholic. Well, where do the Reformed fit? The Reformed kind of tried to hide behind the skirts of the Lutherans and the Lutherans kept shooing away saying, get away from us.

[Mike Horton]

Not much has changed.

[Scott Clark]

Exactly. It's the same way. You're not one of us. Get away from us. And so that put Frederick in a difficult position. And it's interesting, his wife was a hardcore Lutheran confessionalist, so they had a divided house and his children were sort of divided. Ultimately, the son who ended up. Because the first son died, the son who ended up succeeding him was a hardcore Lutheran, and in 1576 would kick all the Reformed out of the Palatinate. But so imagine this. You're just an average schmuck in the palatinate in the 1520s. You're a Roman Catholic, everybody's Roman Catholic. Your religion is whatever the electors is, and particularly after 1530 and. And through the 1550s. And then when Otto Heydrich becomes the elector, now you wake up one morning and you're a Lutheran, and that lasts for a while. And if you live long enough, you wake up one morning and now Frederick is the elector and now you're reformed. That's pretty confusing. That's one of the curses of the sort of state church complex. Your religion is not something you choose, it's something that's chosen for you. And everybody assumes that's just the way it is. So Frederick said, all right, we need a tool to people understand. Very confusing in some ways, and particularly in the transition from Roman Catholicism to sort of a kind of broad kind of Lutheranism, because Melanchthon was his principal advisor in that period. And then after Melanchthon, now the Palatinate is becoming Reformed. And so he needed something to explain to them the continuities and discontinuities. And so the emphasis on the catechism is on the continuities between what they were hearing now and what they. They'd been hearing just previously, to get.

[Mike Horton]

Everybody on the same page. Because it was confusing.

[Scott Clark]

Exactly. And he really wanted to strengthen. I think Frederick was a pious guy and he wanted people to trust in Jesus and he wanted them to have confidence. And that's why the catechism starts the way it does, so that people would.

[Mike Horton]

What is your only comfort in life and in death?

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, in Latin it's consolation. In Dutch, it's trost. German, Dutch and German, it's trost. So comfort, consolation, trust. He really wanted them to know what gets you out of bed during the day and what allows you to go to sleep at night.

[Mike Horton]

It's an interesting way for a catechism to begin to really say everything, summarize everything that the catechism is going to unfold in one question and answer.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Mike Horton]

And comfort being the key.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, that's right. You know, life in the 16th century was hard. Thomas Hobbes said, life without the state is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. And that's a pretty good description of life in the 16th century for most people. And most people couldn't read. There's no health care, there are no analgesics. Right. So there's no Nupron or anything like that. Medical care is, you know, brutal for the most part. And a lot of the times it involves bleeding, which is not great. So go to your barber for surgery. Exactly. You know, imagine going to the dentist and having all your dental work done without any pain relief. Right. That was just life. And so life was really hard and then you died. So what is the meaning of life? And the plague would come to town and you know, people would die and people had to flee. So, you know, we expect to live in air conditioned comfort, at least in the west most of the time. For most people in that period, life is a struggle. And the job that you were doing, you know, we say, you know, you should do something you love. Well, nobody has that choice. Very, almost nobody has that choice in the 16th century. And in a sense, not even Frederick had that choice. So your decisions were largely made for you. So it was important to him for people to know what is the core of your faith, you know, as you sort of struggle through life. And the core is that you belong, body and soul, life and death, to Jesus. And no one or nothing can change that.

[Mike Horton]

The second question, how can you live and die in this comfort? And it's essentially what is going to again be unfolded throughout. Guilt, grace and gratitude. I need to know the weight of my guilt, the goodness of God's grace, and what kind of gratitude comes out of that.

[Scott Clark]

It's the book of Romans. I mean, they gave a synopsis in one sentence of the book of Romans. And it's honestly, I remember sketching that when I was teaching at a well known evangelical college years ago. I just said, you know, one day, the Christian faith is guilt, grace and gratitude. And I could see their minds being blown right there and then. And I think I just did, you know, extemporaneously, 20 minutes laying out guilt, grace and gratitude.

[Mike Horton]

I mean, why is that so important, that order, getting that order right?

[Scott Clark]

Well, I mean, before you can appreciate grace, you have got to know your sin. And you know, as the catechism goes on to say, from where do you know your sin and misery out of the law of God. So you've got to get these fundamental categories in your mind and you've got to know what you are. One of the first things Luther learned as he's becoming a Protestant is no, we're not just a little sinful, we're really sinful. We're deeply corrupted by the fall. And so that grace, the grace that saves us, the grace that justifies us, the grace that preserves us, is truly unconditional, it's truly sovereign, it's truly powerful, it's truly efficacious, and it will never let me go. So that my Christian, Christian life isn't contingent on my performance, my salvation isn't contingent on my performance, these are essential Christian categories. That had been, as you know. Well, had long been obscured before the Reformation. And the catechism captures them in that one, you know, in the second question and answer. And then, what's the nature of the Christian life? It's not, I'll be okay if I do okay. It's I'm seeking to obey, not in order to be saved, but because I've already been graciously, sovereignly, freely saved by Jesus.

[Mike Horton]

You know, we're often told that this distinction between the law and the gospel is a Lutheran thing.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, I love that.

[Mike Horton]

I do, too. I do, too.

[Scott Clark]

That doesn't make my blood pressure rise at all. No, not at all.

[Mike Horton]

Happily, it's dying down a little bit, because I think people are reading.

[Scott Clark]

We hope. Yes.

[Mike Horton]

Yeah. So that's good.

[Scott Clark]

But if you still think that it's not true. This is a shared Reformation heritage.

[Mike Horton]

The first page of his commentary, his commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism is, by the way, the whole message of Scripture is the law and the Gospel.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, exactly. Ursinus says, you know, people say this catechism can be analyzed different ways. Well, let me tell you how it's supposed to be understood.

[Mike Horton]

So maybe we should believe him. I don't know.

[Scott Clark]

I mean. Okay. And people will come back and say, well, the commentary is more complicated than that because there are multiple hands involved and there are student notes. All right, fair enough. But look at the stuff we know that he wrote without any editorial interference, and that's what he says. And Olivianus says, look, the whole book of Romans is about the law and the gospel. And he also says in his commentary in Galatians, the whole book of Galatians is about the distinction between law and gospel. So this is absolutely fundamental to the Reformation. Without it, you don't have a Reformation.

[Mike Horton]

It's interesting, too, that the same people who say, this is a Lutheran thing will say the third use of the law is a Reformed thing.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah. Which is crazy, because Melanchthon invented the language Tertius uses legis, the third use of the law. So. No, I mean, Luther is battling the Antinomians in the 1520s, and he's teaching the substance of the third use. And as I always.

[Mike Horton]

Which, again, is the use for the Christian.

[Scott Clark]

The use for the Christian. Yeah. The norm of the Christian life. How do I live? And, well, I should love God and my neighbor. Well, what does that mean? So the law does not come in the third use to condemn us, even though, obviously, even when we're thinking of the use of the law in that sense. As we say in the Heidelberg, it still reminds us of our sins and in that sense drives us back to Christ. But obviously, now that we're in Christ, it doesn't condemn us anymore. And as Paul says, we're not under the law, we're not in the covenant of works anymore anymore.

[Mike Horton]

Speaking of covenant of Works, Urzina, where is he in the development of covenant theology and how does it come out, especially in his larger catechism?

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, he's pretty important now. There is some work being done. It's just brand new on what's happening in Zurich. So caveat. I know it exists, and I have some idea of what's being said. And so the story is being revised a little bit. And it may be the case that there's more happening relative to the covenant of Works in Zurich than I knew hitherto. But this is one of these many books that's on a stack to be read. You know all about that until, you know, essentially last week, I would have said that Ursinus is really pivotal. And I still think he's very important in the development of the covenant works, this idea that before the Fall, God entered into a covenant with a sinless, perfect Adam as the representative of all humanity, to, say, implicitly obey and enter into a state of eternal blessedness, which the Heidelberg essentially says that we were not created fallen, we were created in righteousness and true holiness, that we might rightly know God, our Creator, heartily love him and live with him in eternal blessedness. Ursinus called that the covenant of nature, and it comes to be called the covenant of works. And he says in his larger catechism.

[Mike Horton]

People called it different things, different things. Covenant of law, covenant of nature, covenant of works.

[Scott Clark]

Law is the standard, works is the condition, nature is the place. So they're just different aspects of the same thing. And so he says in his catechism, when we say covenant of works, we mean the law. So he explicitly correlates the received universal reformation distinction between law and gospel. He correlates those two categories with the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. And that's pretty basic. And so the Heidelberg doesn't use technical language, but one of the things I wanted to do in the commentary was to help people see the connection between what we say in the catechism in a very popular way, with the sort of underlying subtext or the background. I drew heavily on the Compendium of Doctrine, which is the actual title of Ursinus Lectures, which, you know, in the 19th century, we called it A commentary? Well, it kind of is, but he doesn't actually comment on every question in the catechism, which I thought might be helpful. But I drew heavily on the compendium, and I tried to draw heavily on Olivianus, his exposition of the creed, his firm foundation, and some of his commentaries.

[Mike Horton]

It's really hard to pick a winner when it comes to the question on justification in the Lutheran and Reformed catechisms, but, man, it's hard to find anything that matches question 60. Can you tell our folks what?

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, I mean, question 60 asks how you write with God, and the answer begins only by true faith in Jesus Christ and goes on to explain the nature of justification. You know, that it's by divine favor alone, on the basis of what Christ has done for us alone. And it ends if only I accept such benefit with a believing heart. And it even acknowledges, along the way, the nature of our continuing struggle with sin. So it's very realistic. It's classically. It's pastoral, it's classically Protestant. It's clear, it's encouraging. I mean, if you. So what we used to do, we used to memorize the catechism. Children memorized it. And if you grew up with that stuff in your bones, you would know what the gospel is. If I tell a little story, I know of an older couple who had a minister who preached what they regarded, and I think rightly so, as a pretty odd sermon. And all they really knew was the Heidelberg Catechism, and they knew the catechism. And they wrote to their elders and they said, we don't think that sermon agrees with the catechism. And they were right. They were exactly right. They had the catechism in their bones. And the short of the story, short version of the story, is they complained to their elders, and then they appealed to the regional gathering, and then they appealed to the actually international Synod, and the synod said, you're right. And they did it on the basis of the Heidelberg Catechism because they knew what question 21 said. They know what 56 and 59 and 60 said. And 114, 115, they knew all that, and that gave them the wherewithal to stand up. And they're the ones that gave us the impetus and really called us to account to speak up on the doctrine of justification at a crucial time in our history. That's great.

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[Mike Horton]

And isn't it important to tell folks that they're hearing this language about on the basis of the Catechism and they're thinking, well, what about on the basis of the Bible? In our churches we subscribe the three forms of unity, including the Heidelberg Catechism, not insofar as it agrees with Scripture, but because it does. We don't have any business subscribing anything but Scripture apart from it being scriptural. Right.

[Scott Clark]

So what we did in the catechism, and this is why in the commentary, I don't give proof texts because it's not that there's anything inherently wrong with them, but they are a little misleading because the answers are still synthetic. We're gathering up a whole lot of scripture and compressing them into a very short answer. So it's meant to be, as we say now, unpacked, explained. But if you look at the catechism and you pay close attention, it's biblical language, a lot of it throughout. It's not just a repetition of scripture and there's plenty of explanation of scripture, but it's a synthesis of a great lot of scriptural teaching. So that's the beauty. It's not meant to compete with the Bible or to replace the Bible. JI Packer once said in my hearing at a class here, the Bible is a very big book. And that's right. And he was explaining why Calvin wrote the Institutes. But that's the same reason we wrote the catechism was the Bible is a very big book and it gives people a way to understand the Scripture. This is what the church says that scripture teaches well.

[Mike Horton]

And another thing I love about the Heidelberg Catechism and your exposition of it, you really highlight this aspect, is it's not only pastoral, but it's rich in piety. And I think that, you know, sometimes people who come out of pietist backgrounds just bristle every time the people p word is mentioned. And I think you do a great job of showing the difference between Reformed piety and how is Heidelberg, the Heidelberg Catechism especially an exhibit of the distinctiveness of Reformed piety?

[Scott Clark]

So, yeah, pietism is not piety. I mean, those are two different things. Pietism was a sort of an inward turn to our experience, and it happened in the context of the state church. The very beginning stages actually start not too long after the publication of the Heidelberg Catechism. And now there's no connection between the two. And really, it begins primarily in the Lutheran state churches and then sort of bleeds over into the reformed churches. And so for a lot of Americans, pietism represents a kind of legalism. You have to have this kind of experience. You need to have these kinds of disciplines. And it becomes kind of onerous and a quest.

[Mike Horton]

If you do X, Y will result kind of.

[Scott Clark]

And it becomes a sort of seeking for a kind of religious experience. And if you don't have that quality of religious experience, you failed. Right. And what I love about the catechism is that it says implicitly, it's okay to be an ordinary Christian. You don't have to be a super Christian. You can love the Lord, you can love his people, you can love the Word, you can seek to die, to self, live to Christ day by day. And here's what this looks like. Here's what we believe, and here's how you live this out relative to God's moral expectations and the exposition of the law. And here's how you reflect this in your prayer life.

[Mike Horton]

I love the balance, you might say, in its treatment of sanctification, that I, you know, even the holiest in this life have only a beginning, have only a beginning of the holiness that God requires. And so in one, okay, that's a relief to Christians who really are believers.

[Scott Clark]

That is a relief, especially for people with sensitive consciences. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Horton]

But then it goes on to say, so we don't take that for license.

[Scott Clark]

That's right, that.

[Mike Horton]

But everybody who believes in trips and falls and yada, yada, yada, every one of us, despite that, is making a beginning in that holiness that God requires.

[Scott Clark]

I mean, it's very clear that God is sanctifying us. And that's something on which you've been very, very helpful, is that, you know, sanctification is monergistic. It has results. Right. And that's certainly true. And we are seeking to put to death the old man and be made alive in the new. But it's God who is doing that in us. And that's a huge comfort and relief. And then as you get to the end of the catechism, the last section is on prayer. And that's, in a sense, the central place where that has worked out.

[Mike Horton]

And so Beautiful. The treatment of the.

[Scott Clark]

You know, there are traditions, as you know, where you're not supposed to pray the Lord's Prayer because it's not for today. And the Heidelberg is a very classic, traditional Christian document in which it says, no, Jesus gave us the Lord's Prayer because he wanted us to use it, not because when you pray, pray like this. When you get to the right place in the eschatological scheme, pray like this. No, Christian. Pray like this. And then we explain what that means. What does it mean to say, our Father who art in heaven and so forth? And so it's eminently practical in that way. It's a great guide, you know, it's a wonderful place in which to do your devotions. You say, I just don't know what to do for devotions today. Well, the Catechism has a plan for your life because there's something you could do every day.

[Mike Horton]

And the fatherhood of God as you bring up prayer, the fatherhood of God suffuses the catechism. He can take care of me because he's almighty. He will take care of me, wants to take care of me because he's a loving father.

[Scott Clark]

It's just, he's favorable too, you know, if we could. I think a lot of the Christian life is becoming convinced that God is not against you. Right. And that he's favorable to you in Christ, that you are united to Christ. And he did that. He raised you from death to life. He united you to Christ, he's put his Holy Spirit in you and he is in the process of conforming you to Christ. That's really happening. And as you read the Catechism, you get the sense that you don't measure your sanctification on the basis of your experience. You measure your sanctification on the basis of the divine promises, which the Catechism does a wonderful job of. Of summarizing for you.

[Mike Horton]

Yeah. Another question that comes up is a lot of people think that being reformed means the tulip. Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints. And so if you're a five point Calvinist, that's what it means to be reformed. And I often tell people, well, actually that's the Canons of Dort that addresses that. Heidelberg and Belgic don't really talk about election predestination. It's assumed.

[Scott Clark]

It's there, but it's not in the forefront. Right. Because when the Catechism is written, you know, the bondage of the will, which we're remembering this year was a given, right. All the Reformation churches, the Lutheran and the Reformed Anglicans, we all said, hey, we're with Luther on the bondage of.

[Mike Horton]

The will and unconditional election.

[Scott Clark]

Unconditional election, which is, you know, that's a basic part of the Reformation. So the catechism assumes that largely it hints at it, but when you look at the Ettarsinus lectures, he makes it clear. Yeah, when we said, you know this, we meant that. Right. You can't say what we say about providence without divine sovereignty. You can't say that God will never in effect turn loose of me in question one without divine sovereignty. So it's always one of the, if you will, the supporting cast members to everything that's being said.

[Mike Horton]

But what's great is the catechism doesn't do all that work behind the scenes, if you will, because it's for children mainly and they get the drift of the Christian faith. And then they could go hear his lectures or read his lectures.

[Scott Clark]

The ministers were preaching this, right. On Sunday evenings. This is not anything that we invented, right?

[Mike Horton]

No, it goes back to the early.

[Scott Clark]

Church we didn't write. There were no mean spirited, narrow minded reformed guys writing the Apostles Creed. Right. We say I believe in God the Father, semi competent, no omnipotent, almighty. So the idea that God is sovereign and that God elects, well that's in the Apostolic Fathers they regularly talk about election, not a great length, but it's very clear that salvation is by grace, that God is sovereign and he freely chooses. And this isn't a disputed thing. I mean, look, Thomas Aquinas, nobody's clearer about unconditional election or reprobation than Thomas.

[Mike Horton]

Aquinas of the Saints, so.

[Scott Clark]

Exactly so however shocking it might be in our culture to people such as I, and I think you, you know, young Christians maybe, or have you been raised in a sort of Armenian remonstrant culture? Some of this might sound a little bit shocking. It was to me when I ran into it. But that only shows how far we've drifted from really just basic Christianity.

[Mike Horton]

I think if people have only encountered broad evangelicals or anybody else has only encountered a kind of mean, cocky, self satisfied, self confident, arrogant Calvinist. They should read the Heidelberg Catechism. Truly pastoral, but it's also a fulsome statement of what it this is what it means to be reformed. Not this online guy or whatever.

[Scott Clark]

That's what I was thinking. So the weirdo anonymous quote, unquote reformed guy who may not even be a part of an actual church. He doesn't get to define reformed Christianity. And I'm sorry for your bad experience. I've had them too. So, yeah, the Heidelberg and the Belgic and the canons and you know, a lot of what is in the Heidelberg is just Augustine really, in many ways and certainly in the belgic and most especially in the canons. The people who did the canons at the Synod of Dort, as far as they knew, they were defending two things, essentially Augustine against Pelagius and the Reformation against sort of anti Reformation theology.

[Mike Horton]

It seems that this was generally true of both Lutherans and Reformed and certainly of Ursinus that they always had one eye on Rome and another eye on the Anabaptists. And there's like one mention of election under the Church, but I Forget how many. 12 questions on the sacraments.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, could be. I haven't counted them, so I'll take your word for it. They said there'd be no math for this interview.

[Mike Horton]

But today being Reformed is only about election. It has nothing to do with church and sacraments. Talk about that. Because that's a concern that you have in this book. To just say, look, come and read, come and see, come and see.

[Scott Clark]

Tole lege, take and read. There's a lot more to being Reformed. I mean, soteriology is absolutely essential, right?

[Mike Horton]

Doctrine of salvation.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah. It's so essential that without it there's no Reformation. But for all the Protestants, the faith continues all the way into church and sacraments and even in some ways implicitly into eschatology. But we spent probably a lot more time, I mean, as far as Calvin and the Reformed knew, they agreed almost entirely with the Lutherans on soteriology, on most things, most of the time, law and Gospel, justification, sanctification, and actually agreed.

[Mike Horton]

More with Rome than the Anabaptists. Doctrine of salvation.

[Scott Clark]

No, that's right, the outliers. Ultimately, the Reformers positioned themselves in a sense with Rome against the Anabaptists because they were social disruptors, ecclesiastical disruptors, and they represented. And Pelagians and Pelagians. People shouldn't think that the Anabaptists were just like us, with a few minor differences. No, they weren't with the Reformation at all. They weren't with the Reformation on soteriology, on long gospel, you know, sola fide.

[Mike Horton]

They opposed the doctrine of justification.

[Scott Clark]

Exactly. They agreed with Rome that if you say you're justified by grace alone, through faith alone, that will lead to licentiousness. You can't say that. So the Reformed. Yeah, always when they write and when they confess, they always confess against two groups. Typically, we confess against Rome on these things, and we confess against the Anabaptists, like Calvin.

[Mike Horton]

To Cardinal Sadaleto, your Eminence, we are assailed by two sects, the Pope and the Anabaptist.

[Scott Clark]

Exactly. That's right.

[Mike Horton]

That was a spunky thing to say to a cardinal.

[Scott Clark]

Well, I mean, I always tell my students this is. And I tell them this is hyperbole, but if you really want to understand Roman Catholicism, you mustn't impute it, no pun intended, to the ancient church or even to the medieval church. Rome as we know it is a 16th century Italian sect, Right, invented at.

[Mike Horton]

The Council of Trent, different from what it was before the Council of Trent.

[Scott Clark]

I mean, a lot of things. There are some things that develop prior to Trent, but Trent really is in some ways the final nail for what becomes Roman Catholicism. So there's like the seven sacraments. That isn't formally a thing in the Western church until, well, you could say fourth, latter in the early 13th century, but really it's not made explicit until second Leone in 1274. So that's really late. I don't know anybody who's talking about seven sacraments in the 9th century. There's a big argument among some monks about election and the Lord's Supper and the Trinity and some other things, but when they're arguing about the nature of the Supper, they agree. They both say explicitly there are only two sacraments.

[Mike Horton]

Last question. What would you like to see? What would success be for this book?

[Scott Clark]

You know, that's a really interesting question. I don't know that I've actually. This is one of these things that I feel like I should have answered for the publisher.

[Mike Horton]

The House on the Lake.

[Scott Clark]

Yeah, sure. Exactly. I would love it if this book stimulated people to take up the catechism for themselves and to use the catechism, whether it's in Christian instruction or whether it's in the evening sermon or whether it's mom and dad teaching their children the faith, whether it's catechism teachers strengthening their own grasp of the faith, you know, if it does those kinds of things, if it helps. So if it helps preachers, helps elders, helps catechism teachers, helps Christians, that would be great. I don't think I tried to do anything in this book that was new or novel. I just tried to paint as full a picture of the setting of the catechism and its broadcast, broader context in its immediate context, and then what it implies for us relative to some of the questions we're facing. And that's. That's all I really tried to do.

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