Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Know What You Believe with Michael Horton
Episode: What Caused Secularization? Yale Historian & Michael Horton on Radical Mystics and the Reformation
Date: January 27, 2026
Host: Michael Horton
Guests: Dr. Carlos Eire (Yale University), Caleb Waite (Sola Media)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the roots of secularization and the persistence of enchantment and miraculous claims in the modern era. Drawing from their extensive historical research, Dr. Michael Horton and Dr. Carlos Eire discuss how supposed radical mystics, rather than mainstream Protestants or Catholics, have shaped modern spiritual attitudes. The conversation ranges from the Reformation's challenge to miracles, through the persistence of spiritual ecstasy, to the contemporary popularity of New Age spirituality and its implications for Western society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening & Introduction (00:38–03:49)

• Caleb Waite introduces Dr. Michael Horton (the usual host, now guest) and Dr. Carlos Eire.
• Both scholars’ works challenge the narrative that modernity purely equates to rationalism and a loss of enchantment.
• Dr. Eire summarized as a specialist in mystical phenomena and miracles in post-Reformation Europe (“They Flew: A History of the Impossible”).
• Dr. Horton’s trilogy examines the "spiritual but not religious" phenomenon, tracing its roots from ancient mysticism to modernity.

What Drove Their Research? (05:15–10:00)

Dr. Carlos Eire:

• “All of my work has focused on the way in which the visible and invisible relate to one another in religion...” (05:19)
• Lifelong fascination with how societies interpret the natural and supernatural.
• Persistent questioning of historical testimony—how likely is it all is fabricated, especially given religious penalties for lying?

Dr. Michael Horton:

• Inspired by Oxford lectures critiquing traditional religion and exalting mystical, heterodox strands:
  • “That was the trigger for me... That’s how that happened.” (08:31–10:00)

Miraculous Claims After the Reformation (10:00–21:06)

Dr. Carlos Eire:

• Miraculous events like levitation and bilocation spiked after the Reformation due to both polemical and procedural reasons.
  • “My approach is to ask the question, very rational question. How likely is it that 100% of these testimonies...are lying?” (15:43)
• Enhanced evidence from canonization inquests: strict, sworn testimonies from witnesses who believe in hell/purgatory.

Notable Cases:

• St. Teresa of Avila:
  • Ordered nuns to “hold her down” during ecstasies; nuns convinced they could not restrain her (17:29).
  • Ecstasy while cooking with the last bit of olive oil—adds believability due to mundane detail.
• St. Joseph of Cupertino:
  • “Hundreds and hundreds”—even a visiting Lutheran duke converts after witnessing levitation (19:44).

Michael Horton:

• Draws a parallel with Sarah Pierrepont Edwards (wife of Jonathan Edwards):
  • "I repeatedly flew out of my chair... feeling I had left behind my body as an empty shell and should, as it were, drop into the divine being..." (22:45)

Renaissance Florence & The Hunt for Spiritual Ecstasy (24:24–28:57)

Michael Horton:

• Florence post-Black Death—social turmoil and fear of death fueled interest in astrology, Hermeticism, and esoteric practices.
• Marsilio Ficino: Saw no real difference between priestly, medical, and “natural magic” roles.
• Magicians often vied with the Church for spiritual authority—Church tried to draw the line but often compromised.
  • “There was a sense that the magicians were competing with the Church for magic...” (27:14)

Skepticism and Superstition in Early Modern Europe (29:50–34:14)

Dr. Eire:

• Catholic skepticism of miracles predates Protestant Reformation—Inquisition investigates and often debunks peasant visions in 16th-century Spain, dampening reports.
  • “Reports of visions...dwindled because everyone knows...the Inquisition will come and grill them.” (29:50)
• Magic—black or white—remained widespread; late medieval Europe was not fully “Christianized,” full of “superstitions, pagan holdovers, and even some dark stuff.” (31:16)

Michael Horton:

• Debunks “Whiggish” myth of credulous premodern versus skeptical modern:
  • “...people in earlier ages may have been more open to supernatural activity...but they weren’t any more gullible than we are...” (31:52)

Modern Spirituality: From Religion to Crystals (36:12–41:49)

Dr. Eire:

• Younger audiences are more open to non-materialist, enchanted worldviews.
• "Human beings are inherently religious...our species might as well be called 'Homo religiosus.'" (37:15)
• Scientific discoveries (e.g., quantum physics, theories about consciousness) are undermining strict materialism.

Michael Horton:

• Many moderns are “natural supernaturalists”—spiritual but without God external to the universe.
• “What I see is a reaction against both materialism on one hand and supernaturalism on the other, and the triumph of a kind of...natural supernaturalism.” (40:47)

Radicals & Forgotten Shapers of Modernity (45:09–51:04)

Michael Horton:

• Modernity owes more to radical “weirdos” (Anabaptists, spiritual individualists) than to either mainstream Catholics or Protestants:
  • "Modernity is more the product of the so–called weirdos. For instance, the radical Anabaptists..." (45:44)
  • "They wrote the first Bible criticism volumes...to shift authority from an external source...to the inner light, the inner divine self." (46:24)
• Impact of figures like Thomas Müntzer, Sebastian Franck, Caspar Schwenkfeld, Emanuel Swedenborg.

Dr. Eire:

• Ginzburg’s Menocchio: A simple miller with radical cosmology. "The poor man...keeps coming back to face the Inquisition." (48:59)
• Radical beliefs, often persecuted, foreshadowed modern Western religious individualism.

Did the Radicals “Win”? Reconsidering Weberian Secularization (52:25–61:10)

Michael Horton:

• Critiques Max Weber’s “disenchantment” thesis—modernity, if anything, is re-enchanted in a non-Christian sense.
• “This idea that we're disenchanted is crazy. And if you look at the statistics today, people who move from traditional Christianity to ‘spiritual but not religious’ become more superstitious, not less.” (54:29)
• Protestant and Catholic metaphysics more aligned than supposed: both open to miracles, debating mostly over scriptural authority and the purpose of miracles.

Dr. Eire:

• Protestant Reformed tradition (especially Zwingli) uncomfortable with matter/spirit unity, preferred more spiritualized, less material piety (e.g., in Eucharistic theology).
• Protestants largely adopted Catholic demonology regarding post-biblical miracles—if they occur, they’re probably demonic.
  • “While Protestants rejected much of Catholic theology, they simultaneously accepted Catholic medieval demonology almost 100%.” (57:32)
• Metaphysical debates persisted over the relation of finite/infinite, especially in Eucharist controversies.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Carlos Eire:
  “My overarching question in this book is: historians should pause before they reject certain kinds of testimony as necessarily being false in some way...How likely is it that 100% of them are lying?” (15:35–16:34).
• Michael Horton:
  “Modernity is more the product of the so-called weirdos...The utopianism...all of that had more of an impact on modernity than either the Magisterial Reformation or the Counter-Reformation.” (45:44–46:34)
• Carlos Eire:
  “Human beings are inherently religious...I've often argued our species is called ‘Homo sapiens,’ might as well also call it ‘Homo religiosus.’” (37:10)
• Michael Horton:
  “People in earlier ages may have been more open to supernatural activity...but they weren't any more gullible than we are...” (31:52)
• Michael Horton:
  “This idea that we’re disenchanted is crazy. If you look at the statistics today, people who move from traditional Christianity to ‘spiritual but not religious’ become more superstitious, not less.” (54:29–55:00)
• Dr. Carlos Eire:
  “While Protestants rejected much of Catholic theology, they simultaneously accepted Catholic medieval demonology almost 100%.” (57:32)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Background: 00:38–05:15
• Motivations & Research: 05:15–10:00
• Miraculous Claims & Levitation: 10:00–21:06
• Renaissance Mysticism & Magicians: 24:24–28:57
• Skepticism and Superstition: 29:50–34:14
• Modern Spirituality & Science: 36:12–41:49
• Radical Reformers & Modernity: 45:09–51:04
• Disenchantment, Weber, & Modern Superstition: 52:25–61:10

Conclusion (62:26–63:07)

• Caleb Waite thanks both guests; recommends their recent books for understanding the contemporary “sprawling enchanted age” and the search for spiritual ecstasy.
• Both Dr. Eire and Dr. Horton thank the host and audience.

Takeaway:
This episode urges listeners to rethink standard accounts of Europe’s secularization, highlighting how fascination with the miraculous and the mystical remains deeply embedded in Western culture—from Renaissance magicians to today’s New Age trends. Both skeptical and faithful, modernity is less disenchanted than it is differently enchanted—and historians, theologians, and all curious minds need to account for the persistence of the impossible.

Recommended Reading:

• They Flew: A History of the Impossible by Carlos Eire
• Magician and Mechanic (trilogy) by Michael Horton