← Know Your Gear Podcast
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- [00:00]
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The Know youw Gear Podcast.
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Today's podcast is a bonus podcast and I have a guest joining me. I have John Gundry from Throwback Pickups. Now, if you don't know who John Gundry is, he's an expert when it comes to the PAF pickup. And all of the versions of the PAF pickup, you heard me right, there's versions. In fact, four different machines made the PAF pickup and he has a version of each one of those machines at his shop. In fact, Paul, who works at his shop, may be the only person left on the entire planet Earth that that can operate all four machines. He goes to Extreme Details to recreate every component that's in the PAF pickup. Now this leads to a pickup that's 10 times more expensive than the average aftermarket pickup. But here's what's great. He's on the show because he has a YouTube channel, I'll put a link down below and a website where he freely shares every piece of information, including reverse engineering the original PF pickups, explaining all the components, where he gets them, how to source them, and if you want to build them yourself, he's he says you're welcome to do it. In fact, he encourages it. Today's episode of the Know youw Gear podcast is brought to you by Patreon.
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Members Channel members and viewers who like and subscribe. Thank you for making this possible. When I first started making pickups, it it was a hodgepodge. There was no one source that you could get the bobbins base plates for. Let's just for instance a humbucker. There was no place if you wanted an accurate PAF spec. There was no one who did a dead on accurate PAF spec that you could buy. The very first ones I did, I had to use bobbins from all parts and base plates from all parts. But then I had to adapt a stumac keeper bar to work with it. And then I had to source screws from someplace else and magnets of course from somewhere else. And then the strange thing about it is the all parts bobbins didn't really fit the all parts base plates well. And so at some point I realized if I'm going to just if I'm going to get the specs I want but also have a well assembled pickup, I have to start getting the parts made. There wasn't any mojo Tone making parts at the time for for them. The only other person that I know that was doing butyrate bobbins I think was bare knuckle and he had at the time I think was, well, Seymour Duncan also, but like the dimensions of a PAF pickup and he was using at the time a mold that he had purchased from someone else. But I thought if I want the right specs, I've got to have them made. So I got a plastic molder here locally to do the bobbins and I'm in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So some of the shops that used to do things for Gibson are still around here in West Michigan. So I, I found the place that used to make base plates for Gibson when they were in Kalamazoo. And they didn't, they didn't want to take that job on, but they directed me to another place that could. So eventually I got all of this stuff sourced in the, the Midwest and.
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Hold on, I want to pause.
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A
Okay.
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B
Because we, we might lose people. So, so let's start with. Because I'm going to tell you right now, because there's some guys right now just loving this and eating this up what you're saying. But there's some that are just like now you're, you know. So let's just talk about the butyrate because you said that. So explain what that is and why that's relevant to the bobbin in any way if you could.
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A
Okay. Well, it's called the bobbin. Plastic material is called cab, which is a acronym for cellulose acetate butyrate. It's just the, the mix of the plastic and it plastic that is peculiar to PAF pickup bobbins. Now it's, it would be some sort of polycarbonate for a mass produced pickup, but cellulose acetate butyrate is what they use. So this is one of these specs of a vintage PAF that is a signature of them. It has a weird smell. It does. I, I don't claim there to be any difference in how it makes the pickup sound, but it's one of these things that, that is associated with the construction of it. And there is one thing that I think may make a difference is that since it's a different material and a PAF pickup is unpotted, not wax potted. The every component has a mechanical resonance and use just using a different bobbin material, in my way of thinking with the violin mind of my making sort of mind that I went into this with was that even though it's a small detail, that difference in mechanical properties, since there is this mechanical component to an unwax potted humbucker pickup, that that plastic material would make a Difference. So in the upshot of this is now it's, it's kind of considered butyrate plastic is kind of considered a not obsolete kind of plastic, but not used very often. So in order for me to get the parts made, I have to buy 600 pounds of it at a time. But that's, that's what. And, and again, it started with me having another business where I could like entertain these ideas that would just be like a non starter for any other small guy.
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Now you have those made here in the States?
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I have them made at. I have a plastic molder in, in Menden, Michigan, which is just south of Kalamazoo. I'm about an hour north of Kalamazoo. And yeah, he, he, he's a very good plastic molder and he made a. I actually gave him some old PAF bobbins and he could tell just by looking at it what the mold was like. In fact, he explained the numbers that are inside the bobbin. There's, there's numbers, just sort of a part number, but there's also a mold chamber number. There's four. If you, if you repair enough PAF pickups, you realize that there's a, there's, there's four different kinds of bobbins and they're labeled 1, 2, 3 and 4. Well, that's because the original mold was a four chamber mold. So there's these little details like this that I would actually, I wouldn't even be aware of if I hadn't gotten the parts made, you know, so, so it's, there's a practical standpoint to a lot of these things that are evident to the, to the plastic molder. But as the, as the pickup aficionado, you might not know, but it just, the process of getting all these parts made educated me as to what went into making them. But also it kind of revealed little different parts of the process industrially, I guess of Gibson when they had these made. And a few of these things have a little bit of impact I, I think on the finished pickup. And if you get all of those done, I think you can have a more accurate reproduction, which is why I think it's been a real advantage for, for us having our own parts.
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B
I love that you're just like, I don't know if the plastic has a tone in it. You know, it's funny because you, I always think of the Internet and how they were going to react to anything. But on the note that's interesting to me is one of the things I learned from you. The Nickel covers originally were much flatter on the top. What was interesting is why that's important, because of the air gap that can get in there. Doesn't it kind of tell you that they had put thought into everything a little bit? I mean, obviously they must have thought about these things, why they were doing them. And there's a reason why they're doing and a reason why now manufacturers decided some of those things don't matter, they could work around that.
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A
Yeah. I think from a practical standpoint, it's. They, they must have had some knowledge that, that if it's flatter, it's less likely to feedback. One interesting thing about the covers is I believe there were two manufacturers for them, but I know one was in Grand Rapids and it was a place called Johnson Metal. I know that because one of the buffers we use, his dad used to do all the buffing for Gibson, and he said that's where the parts came from. So this, all these we. Details just being around here, that, that I, I've kind of stumbled across. But yeah, I, I'm sure a lot of these things, a lot of these details there was thought into it. And I think that the two. My, my feeling is that initially the, the thought was what will satisfy our customers and what will allow us to make something that gets us what we want tonally, sonically out of it. And then I think like any manufacturer, a lot of these details got tweaked to be more efficient. And so by the time you get to a T top, there's a fair amount of difference in the construction and materials that go into it. But I think really the focus on a lot of that was efficiency with an eye on keeping the cost down, you know, which is normal for a large company, because kind of what I think about too, I, I've thought about how do I articulate this to people? You know, a place like Gibson, they're making everything at scale, large scale. So initially they might have had a process for a PAF that, that worked for them. But, you know, As a year, 2, 3 goes on, they're going to, they're going to just automatically get machines that work faster, change processes that, that will speed up the labor time that goes into it. But what, what I can do is I can focus on doing details at a scale that isn't realistic for someone who's doing production at scale. And that's part of why it really, we have to charge more.
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B
You know, I believe not in every case, not everything is so like a broad stroke, but a Lot of cases in the music industry. A lot of things that were made way back then can be made now if you truly want them. And sometimes that gets confused. It happens with the Internet. People think I don't like vintage guitars or something. It's like, it's not that. I'm just saying, you know, if you're coveting this guitar that costs more than a, you know, a sports car, right. There are things that people like you can do to recreate pretty much a lot of what they were doing back then. Because to, to you, to your point, like look, you're, you had to have your own molds done, you had to have your own screws done. And I don't mean to take this away from anybody out there. So anyone out there, if you're a pickup builder and you want to put comments in this later and say, no, I do. I haven't found anybody who's buying USA made magnets.
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I, I know Tom Holmes used to, I, I, he may still. The, the only reason I know that is one of the suppliers I use just through deduction I realized, oh this, they had another pickup maker using the same type of magnet. They could provide a sample. And I'm pretty sure it was Tom Holmes. I actually think it's, it's like the best time for guitars to get a really great deal on a really great guitar and pickups too. There, there's not, there's not any reason you can't make a great sounding pickup with overseas parts. And if it's an important difference to people who are looking for that spec, I want to provide it. But I also want to be very upfront about, you know, what, what it takes for us to do that, which is why we do videos and, and try to explain as much of that as possible because it is a lot of money and, but I want people to know what they're getting.
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B
So that was my first, you know, kind of like experience with expensive instruments. Was not an expensive instrument, it was an expensive pickup. And, and if you think about it, most guitar players, that's their first experience. Like mo, most guitar players aren't going to say like, hey, I got a, you know, a $4,000 guitar. But most guitar players are going to tell you that they got an inexpensive like 200 guitar, but they said put a hundred dollar pickup in it. And they're like wow. You know, that experience of like wow, I've really upgraded this. You know, I liken it to like, you know, my friends in high school back in the day when they Would soup up the engines in their cars. Right. I'm going to make the engine better in the car and therefore the car will do something that it didn't do before. And pickups, to me, what I loved about pickups when I first started like paying attention to them a long time ago was relatively. Even though yours are more on the expensive side for sure. Relatively, yeah. If you look at a little piece of plastic and like this big and go wow, that's a lot of money. But I mean relatively speaking. We walk in a music store and look at prices of things. The pickups are not hugely expensive comparatively. But what's great is they don't go bad for. I mean you gotta really want to kill a pickup to kill a pickup.
- [13:09]
A
Except last year I got a fair amount of double cream pickup, double white pickups, vintage ones that are going bad. Leaving the pickup uncovered, especially a PAF is not a good idea. But go on with what you were saying.
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B
I'll give you more. So here's what I would attribute that to. They're not wax potted.
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That's, that's one important detail.
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So the wire, you know, which is a human hair. Right. So the wire is so thin and you know, it's just. I mean that's one of the things I like about walk wax potting and pickup. It's not even the. I don't play loud arenas. So like when people are like my pickups are squealing, I'm like, I'm not standing in front of a Marshall like a pickup. Squealing is not something I truly experience on my day to day playing experience. But wax potting, it just makes me feel like it's good. It's stuck together now. Right?
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A
Yeah, it does have a solid. It actually strangely feels solid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
It's like.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Like a brick of soap.
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Right? Yeah.
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So but I understand what you're saying. But even I would say even if you're seeing a lot of them, I'm just talking about like what would those odds be? It's not 10%.
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A
No, no, no. But what's interesting, these are the. And I'm going to do video about this because I kind of had this revelation last year. I kind of put this together with repairing enough of them. A lot of double crane pickups are obviously hotter. So they're overwhelmed to an extent that there's just barely covering the. The tape.
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B
Yes.
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And, and even if, let's say the pickups 8 point, you know, 8.1 K. There may be one coil that is much more overwhelmed than the other. The problem with leaving the COVID off is the tape that is used for the coils. They don't make it anymore. And it has very tenacious adhesive. When you're repairing one you have to. If you're going to reuse the tape you have to remove it carefully and then you have to re tape it pretty quickly because the adhesive will basically turn into varnish. It'll get completely hard. So if you have the COVID off and there now becomes a little gap just because this coils are loosely wound or very fully wound with magnet wire. If you have the COVID off, inevitably there's going to develop a little gap along the long edge of the pickup coil tape. And then you get a little air under there, sweat, whatever. Very often that tape now loses its adhesive properties. And these overwound coils, they'll show up with wire laying on top of the coil.
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B
I don't know the vintage pickup world very much so I'm. I don't know. Is the tape a paper based or is it a nylon based tape?
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Like.
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No.
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Yeah, it's a paper based tape. So it's a 3M. One of the details you can kind of check to. To spot a possible fake is the tape that is used on a vintage P90 or PAF. The fibers of the. The paper fibers are black. The outside of it is varnished is flat varnished paper. And the adhesive is also black and that black adhesive. So if you've got the adhesive on your fingers, it's. It'll be black be black goo on it. So if you have. If you have a pickup that you think might be vintage and it doesn't have that type of tape on it, then it's either been rewound or it's. It's entirely a fake. But that, that black adhesive when it's exposed to air. I assume this is just a really effect of it having been, you know, the age of the tape. I've got pieces of tape over there that I. I've taken off of repairs. It's. It's like varnish. It's. It's totally loses its ability to stick to anything and it's shiny the adhesive side of it. So there's. I don't. There's no equivalent tape right now that is like it. But so the irony of this is the. The most desirable collectible pickup is. Is now has this shortened lifespan for the very reason it's very desirable and collect them. You know, the people don't want the COVID on. So.
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B
Yeah, well, you know, that was, you know, we all do what our idols do. And so many of those idols especially, you know, in that time where we're yanking the covers off because the theory was if you yank the COVID off, you could get more high frequencies or more, just more. The word is just more. That's all that matters. Just get more to the amp. And this gave them more to the amp. And then it also made them stand out as looking different, right, because the pickups look different than all the other, you know, on the wall of the music store. Les Paul's stuff.
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A
The interesting thing, I actually ran across a video of Jeff Beck playing his oxblood Les Paul before he took the covers off. And, and it actually, I think sounds better with the covers on. It's a sweeter sound. It's a, it's a. It's a much sort of like in your face attack with the COVID off, which is what I would expect, but it's a sweeter tone with the covers on.
- [18:25]
B
You know, it's tough because everybody's going to have a little bit of different, you know, what they perceive. But to me, I pick things just on looks like I'll go, okay, this looks like it should have nickel covers and. And that looks like it should have, you know, plastic bobbin covers or plastic bobbins. And I don't really, because I'll just make the adjustment, the amp, you know. But what's nice is because I have the, the Somnium guitar where I get to swap pickups all the time and swapping pickups all the time. What I learned is everything is true. Like if you take a neck pickup out of the guitar and you throw it, you know, and you have just one bridge pickup, it does sustain just a little bit more, right? But all of these things are so small that you can understand when. And I kind of try to not live when I, when I do this stuff. I don't live in the now because the now is easy. The now is I got plugins and EQs and nice mixers and nice amplifiers, right? I try to live in the then and in the past. And in the past when you had an amp with. Only if you're lucky, you had a mid range control, right? It's just, you know, you had a, you know, some amps, just a fixed mid range sound. And then of course your bass in treble. You know, when you're trying to get that last bit of highs out or the last bit of bass out or the last bit of distortion out or last bit everything. I could see why everything mattered even, Even if it was so small. And I think that's part of the fun of it, you know, chasing that still to this day. So I see both sides. So when somebody says, oh, it doesn't matter, I go, I could see that now it doesn't matter. But I also see why it's so much fun to figure it out and. Yeah, right. And it's just, there's just something about, you know, what's. Why I still watch westerns. I just, you know, there's just something about, you know, the past. It's a romantic, you know.
- [20:09]
A
Yeah, I. The kind of a similar, similar thing that happened recently was we've, we've offered, we now offer a nocaster style and broadcaster Alico 3 style pickup. And I realized so Aleco 3 magnets. And again we had these custom made and to get the full variety to do a Helicaster and strat cost us 30 grand to do it. But I realized that the gauss is about half what a 5 would be in Rod Bagman. And I realized though, oh, this is why people love like emg. It's like it's, it's easier to get pinch harmonics out of the weaker magnet, you know, so that was another one of those things like beyond the difference in the metal that that contributes to the pickup. And I only co3. I think one reason people like those very early Telecasters is it's easier to get pinch harmonics out of. You listen to Roy Buchanan. That's, that's part of it. His, his style is kind of very full of kind of things that are on the edge of pinch harmonics. And it comes out just that one change. You feel it as a player, that difference in the magnet.
- [21:29]
B
I got obsessed for a while with like how cheap can I get a pickup? Like how. Where can I find the cheap? You know, because you can find pickups for eight dollars. I've been to the factory where they make an eight dollar pickup, which is just crazy to watch.
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A
Well, again, it's making them at scale.
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B
Not only the scale, though think about this. Not only the scale, because if you watch them do it and this is where it gets fun, they create a problem and they solve it. So let's say they use a big O ceramic magnet and it just creates all this high. This is them. I'm not, I've explained it, but it was them explaining it to me. They were like. And it creates all this high frequency. But the high the, specifically the, the high frequency is not the problem. It's an unpleasant tone, especially when you add distortion, which is just going to exaggerate certain tones. And then to see them go, but this was great. Like, they were excited about this problem because here's why. To fix it, they need to dull how much of that magnetic energy gets to the string. Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
So they did that by essentially making the slugs less metal. Does it make sense?
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A
Yeah. And this, this is a cost savings in the long run, Right? Right. Yeah.
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B
Right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So when somebody says because they do, because there's all kinds of players and no one's wrong, I never look at that. One player's wrong and one player's right. I just look at it like, hey, what fits your needs? And what are you looking for? And the real. And, and, and to me, the only thing I'll never understand to this day is that they don't have an obsession. Right. Like, if somebody tells me they're obsessed with $99 guitars, I'm like, I totally understand you. Like, we're friends, we're kindred. I'm not obsessed with them, but I understand obsession.
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A
Okay.
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B
I just don't understand when people don't understand the obsessive part. But to me, it's like when somebody says, hey, this $8 pickup sounds good, I'm like, it does because that's the baseline. Now the baseline is it functions.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know.
- [23:16]
A
Well, the, so the experience I've had with this was with rod magnets. And I hadn't checked the last time. The last time I bought overseas made magnets was I think probably 2008, 2009. And the, the reason I switched to USA made is that, that I've didn't. The, the consistency of what I was getting from overseas parts was so bad that I was sent two different batches of magnets that wouldn't magnetize. And I thought, I can't rely upon that. So I'm going to give USA made magnets a shot even if they cost more. I revisited this with Alnico 3 rod magnets. And now the price disparity is 15 times for rod magnets. I think it's about 11 for bar magnets, I think, because there's just more machine time in a rod magnet. But so I'm paying 15 times more for the USA made magnet than overseas. I have the Black Guard book. And I thought like, what was Leo Fender probably paying for these things? Because he's. There's a data sheet in there where. Or there's A cost breakdown in that is in his handwriting. If you do the, the. If you run that through an inflation calculator and just kind of guess as to what his price break probably is for the quantity he was buying, it's about in line with inflation. Now what I'm paying for 15 times more. I figure that the quantity he was ordering he probably was getting another 15 to 20% off for the larger quantities. And that would put it right in line if you run his old price through an inflation calculator to what it would cost today. So related to that, I ordered some overseas made magnets and they were very consistent. But I was told by two different sources that they're using one way to keep the cost down is by adding iron as a filler material. And if that's true, which I think it probably is, it shows up in the results that I ab'd against them in that there's a pretty big inductance difference from the magnets between the USA made vintage spec stuff in the overseas. So they've, they're. So they're, they've solved a problem of cost, right? And they're producing something that, that works very well. But it's not the same spec as the old stuff. And it's not that it's not that it's, it sounds bad compared to the old stuff, but it's different. It's absolutely different. And so again those differences, I think I want to get the difference since we're making reproduction. I don't want those differences. And for this, this is another advantage of using USA Mid stuff. But it's also, it kind of exposes why that's. Well, it's not, not explosive. It makes it sound like it's some criminal thing, but it's, it's obvious why if someone making pickups at scale would, would really have to. You use that if there's that price difference. And yeah, I think the manufacturers solved the problem of cost and it's sort of become the industry standard.
- [26:46]
B
So I know one thing you do besides pickups. You sell parts. You sell some of your parts, right?
- [26:53]
A
Yeah, we, we sell some parts really just because like we sell P90 bobbins and base plates. I make those, but I only, I price them high enough just to be available for anybody who's a picket maker that let's say want has to restore a P90 and they want the dimensionally correct part because I don't know anybody else at the time. There wasn't anybody else making one that you could buy because I Was getting requests from pickup makers. Hey, can I buy them? And I thought, well, I'll make it easy for people that are in that situation and put them on the website covers too.
- [27:26]
B
Things that make you unique. You're very open with not only the information, but also you know, where your materials come from, what you're doing. Everybody is either super proud, they can't wait to show you how they make something, what they make it out of, or it is behind the green curtain. It's the Oz, you know, Oz you're never going to see. It's a magic. I find it's thrown around a lot. Like we can't. It's a preparatory secret to know where we get, you know, we don't want you to know our suppliers. We don't want to know anything. And here's what's funny. I've learned, and I say this, and this is just my honest, honest opinion. What I've learned is the people who use the best components, the best parts, and which then translates to expensive suppliers, they don't fear telling anybody because they, they. I'm not saying, you know, they know it, but they know the competitors are going to use those suppliers. They're not going to use that. They're not going to go down the road. You're going because it is super expensive. And it puts you in a, a very unique price bracket. Right. Which takes. And this is the important part, and I'll say this just so the audience knows. You have to educate yourself to buy a throwback pickup. You know, if you buy it and put it in your guitar, the results will be, oh, it sounds great, that's great. But I mean, if you want to understand the pricing, you need to take some time. I would watch at least three or four of John's videos where he's either breaks down. He's got videos where he breaks down each component like it disassembles the pickup. He's got videos where he's essentially giving away what is really probably the hardest thing. He's the, the $30,000, you know, to buy stuff and, and 600 pounds of, of plastic. That's not the hard, the hardest. Your knowledge, the, the amount of information you've accumulated and that you actually give that to people. That's, that's given away a lot of value that people probably should take the opportunity to learn with.
- [29:19]
A
I want people to know what they're getting, you know, from. Since all of these details go into what we make, I don't feel like having them sort of secretly have them be a secret is, is useful to the person buying it. And I mean honestly, I'm making a reproduction, right? So it's not like I, I've, I've been very meticulously going about making reproduction but I didn't make the original. Some of these things, if another pickup maker decides they want to do it well then I won't be the only guy buying, you know, USA Main magnets. And they'll, you know, maybe it'll, they'll have a. I mean they like to sell them to me but. And it's a big cash outlay for me. But it's not going to hurt me for there to be another reliable customer for one of my suppliers. You know, the other part of it is there are capabilities that, that we have that are unique to us. Seymour Duncan does have a lease on a one or two out of the Gibson factory and Gibson does still use Meteor machines that they owned in, in Kalamazoo. But we have those machines and then we have two pickup, two machine models that no one has. So there, if you combine that we have a capability to wind a pickup in a way that no one else has. It's reassuring for me to know that we have this un. Capability. But the irony of it is very often good information advice gets completely ignored is in my experience with it. So, so it's like, well you know, I could help someone else and what's that hurt in it it, you know, if people get to decide whether or not they. The information's useful. But strangely I think often if you're kind of worry is the competitors, you might be helping out a competitor. I think very often people are very so, so set in what their routine is that it's very hard to get them to change. Anyway, so anyway that's, that's been my experience with, with sharing information. I think it really helps the customer out. I, I do, I do want people to know what we make. And the other part of it is it's not a real big universe for pickup makers. And if there's something that a competitor finds helpful and that they might, might want to reciprocate to me when I have some need, that's then that's I think how a competitive business should work.
- [31:55]
B
One of the things that became hard for me as a YouTube channel which translates to the consumer, this is the problem, right? Is that when I get a product, the whole concept of a review is a silly idea, right? Like I'm going to look at a thing and then tell you my opinion of It. And like, who the hell cares? Right?
- [32:10]
A
But.
- [32:11]
B
But here's what's important though. I find more and more the things that don't cost money to the companies now all of a sudden are very valuable. And things that cost money to companies. Well, that didn't really matter, actually, if you think about it.
- [32:24]
A
Yes. Because. Well, because. Yeah, that makes. That makes sense. I mean, I've actually worked with my fair doing photography. I've worked with my fair share of marketing and advertising people. There's definitely that part of it.
- [32:39]
B
Obviously, people covet the original pickups that are in these original guitars. There's no question of that. It's not just rock stars, it's everybody. It's like the half the industry is built on replicating a thing from the past.
- [32:53]
A
Yeah.
- [32:53]
B
And what I find funny is, is then you have someone like you who's like, okay, I'm gonna super nerd that. You know, I'm gonna replicate it. Like I said, one of the craziest things you've done actually makes me kind of chuckle. When I was. I look at everything you've done. You had the screws made. You may not understand this. Or maybe you do. No one would know.
- [33:16]
A
No one. No. I've got four variations of screws and actually ordered some more. And they're fine. And I'm probably good. Probably going to. I found another screw manufacturer that I think I may prefer, and it's not. What I ordered is problematic. I would just. I like for myself, I think I could improve upon it. So I. I'm actually right now in the process of getting. No. So I'll have six varieties. So actually when you talk about sort of. I. I have a theory as to why this stuff appeals to me. And two, I think this applies towards vintage guitars or just older stuff in general. It's a way of honoring a level of hand work that by using it and having it and appreciating it that is not as common as. As it once was. And you. And that the object itself, the guitar itself, it somehow exudes that. And I feel the same way about using the old machines we use. I feel like keeping them running, using them the way they were set up to do. It's a way of. It's. In a way, it's a. It's a way of honoring people that had to feed their families. Using these things might not have been what they would have chose to do on a sunny day. The motivation for doing it, I have to assume was out of. Out of basically a love for what at Least the results would bring to them. And that using it you keeping them running is a somehow way of honoring. In using them for what we make is a way of honoring people that. That use them in the past. This may be way overthinking that. This is really because I thought about this. It's like why is it. Why am I attracted to this sort of detail and trying to recreate something and. And why do people like it? I think that's part of it. Not only is let's. Let's say a vintage guitar or TAF pickups not as there only is there scarcity built into it because of its age and that there were only so many made then. But the way of making them is more and more scarce. You know, in the. With these older methods and just amount of hand work.
- [35:42]
B
The thing with this I actually internally was chuckling when you said this. This cost. You made a point about the cost being $30,000. And to give people scale of that. I've interviewed so many people, I've talked to so many people in this industry. I've heard companies that can do, I don't know, $100 million a year in sales and they will make a decision to not do something over $30,000. Isn't that funny?
- [36:09]
A
Yeah. I have three versions of Alnico rod magnets. So multiply that times three. That 30,000. Multiply that by three. In order for me to have the full variety of sizes for different. Two different varieties of Alico 5, all USA Vade and one of Alenco 3. It's nuts honestly when I think about it. But I mean it works and I don't have to buy them all on the same day. But yeah, I mean that's just the reality of it's a different model than what they're going to do.
- [36:46]
B
Last section. So I know you guys, you don't make strings, but you have strings.
- [36:49]
A
No.
- [36:50]
B
Okay. You have them made for you.
- [36:52]
A
Yeah. So I went to the. The guys that make our strings and I said can you. I'd like to make a pyrenickle round core electric guitar string. And they. They initially refused because in their mind this is a flaw because everything now is hex core. But most everybody and I had to convince them, I said no, I think there's. I think there's a market for it. So. Well, you'd have to buy the material. And. And I said okay. And the upshot of it is the pyranickel round core machine Pyr nickel round core strings are our biggest seller. So. And Then pyranickel hex core. But it's another sort of example of sort of an old manufacturing process that is now, I guess in their mind, it's obsolete. Right. Because the, the hex core solves a problem. The risk of a round core string is that if you trim it improperly, you, it's gonna, it can go dead because you don't have that hex core stabilizing the lines up the length of the string.
- [37:58]
B
Oh, see what I mean?
- [37:59]
A
Yeah. So. So to make them, there's an extra step to make a round core string is they have to take the core wire and then they put a flat at the end of it and that, that flat. So they run it through a machine to squish the core wire so that the end of the wrap wire can bite into that. That stabilizes the whole thing. But when you cut it off, that stabilization of that end piece that's been flattened goes away. So you have to, the, the, the solution for this is you have to bend the wire. I've done a video on this. So you bend to the wire, you trim it at a little bit of an angle, and you don't have the problem of the string going dead. But in the string industry, this was a repeat problem because if it's not trimmed properly, you have complaints.
- [38:52]
B
Yeah, People think I'm crazy. Whenever I talk about restringing a guitar when they have a problem, I'm like, well, restring your guitar again. And then.
- [38:59]
A
Yeah.
- [39:00]
B
And then I think they look at me like an IT guy telling them to reboot their computer. You know, like I'm being lazy. And I'm like, no, look, improper string installment is a thing. It happens all the time.
- [39:13]
A
Yeah. I actually think that this is the. I think this is the origin of the luthier's knob is that this is a, this is a, this is a foolproof way to prevent the string growing dead when you have round course strings because it doubles over on itself and, and you. And it's trimmed usually after the guitar is under tension. But it's not the most efficient way to do it.
- [39:38]
B
No.
- [39:38]
A
And you don't need. And you don't need to do it with hex core. So. But I wanted to offer the round core, pure nickel strings because there weren't the. I think the choices for pure nickel or at the time were. Dr. Which are. They're hand wrapped. Yeah. Triangle, I believe. And those are hand wound. Also, GHS has nickel rockers, but those are like a half flat round. Yeah, it's, it's another one of these things that's counterintuitive. The thing that once was there's a market for. But the market went away or but the, the product went away because the people making it saw the original spec as a problem.
- [40:21]
B
Speaking of ghs, there was a lady, she might be still there, I don't know. There was a lady named Beth there and she once told me, you know, the guitar picks the strings, not the player. I thought it was an interesting statement, she said. And I, you know, up until that point, it's one of those things like it was just rattled in my head when you're right, the guitar picks the strings. Interesting. Like not, yeah. Not even explaining the logic of it, just like thinking about it where before, up until that moment, everything in my brain said this is the gauge type brand string I like. And then I put that on everything, right?
- [40:55]
A
Yeah.
- [40:55]
B
And then all of a sudden I go, yeah, I do have a guitar. I don't like the way it plays. You know, we're not even talking with gauge. This is talking about like, you know, like you said, there's a difference in the way strings are made. And so one of the things besides a lot of things I've adopted is all of my vintage esque guitars. I don't have any true vintage guitars, but like vintage esque Irish. I was like, yeah, why don't I throw nickels on them and see what happens? I mean that's what they were designed with, right?
- [41:23]
A
Yeah.
- [41:23]
B
And if the pickups are replicating or the pickups are trying to be a replica of original pickup and the guitars, right. Like, why not put an original string. And one thing I know about guitar players that I just absolutely adore the hell out of which is the fact that for a dollar they'll, they'll just not do something right. Like if a string, a pack of strings is $1 more like that's just, they're not going to do that. And I always laugh going, but they will literally change everything. They'll spend $1,000 to accomplish a task that maybe a dollar would have done. Right.
- [41:53]
A
$1 more.
- [41:53]
B
Right. And I love putting pure nickel strings or on like anything that's like a PAF style pickup to me. Strats like this Strat right here with vintage set of style pickups in it. I put nickels on that. And then when literally the things I didn't like maybe before like to me it softened that Strat so much.
- [42:15]
A
Yeah, I, I really, I think I realized this in high school, but didn't really figure out why I preferred other different brands. I. I preferred. For a Strat I preferred. What are they even called? I think they're called 150xls or something. But they. I think maybe I tried them because Eddie Van Halen used them or something and. But they're pure nickel. And I thought like this is actually. And then I try like D'Adarea's on them and I like this. There's something like harsh about it now, right? There's some chunky thing going on. And then I real. I realized now. Well, it's the. The Fender ones were pure nickel. And then also Dean. I used Dean Markley's strings also. And I think the ones I was using those were round core, right? So yeah, I do. And then my most recent instance of the guitar picking the strings, not the player I prefer personally, I prefer hex core pyrannical strings for a Strat or a Telecaster if it's got on the CO5. But for. If you're using an Alico 3 broadcaster and no caster pickup, you get a little extra signal. The, the. What I tell people about output of a pickup is that it's a combination of the strength of the magnet and the. The wines on the pickup. So a higher resistance is going to give you a more, higher, less headroom with the low wattage amp than a. A lower resistance pickup will give you more headroom. But also the strength of the magnet has that same effect. A stronger mag you less headroom with lower wattage amp. A weaker magnet will give you a little bit more headroom. But Alnico 3 and something like a nocaster or broadcaster pickup. The extra getting a. A nickel wound which is really nickel plated steel. But in the guitar string world, nickel wound means nickel plated steel. Using Those with an A3 broadcaster, no caster pickup, you get just a little extra signal off to the. Off the wound strings. And that to me is right for the guitar. So if someone gets one of our Strat sets of pickups though with Alica 5, we'll send a pure nickel hex core set with it. Because I. That's what I think is the right strings for that style of guitar and pickup. But if they get her, if they get our nocaster, I'm going to send the nickel plated steel strings because I think that that that style of guitar with those pickups, it really. That it does. The guitar does pick those strings. So yeah, you know, it's personalized, but there is definitely something to the guitar needing a Certain string, if you're going for what's optimum from the guitar.
- [45:07]
B
So when you think of the string manufacturers and the pickup manufacturers, you think, interesting enough, you think they would discuss each other more. What's funny about pickup manufacturers now is when you read the ad copy, like, it's just this garble of statements, right? Where I would love it if it said, hey, this pickup pairs well with a thicker gauge string. And this pairs well with, like, you know, a brighter string or a softer string, and you know, like a nickel string versus, you know, a steel string. I mean, obviously, both these entities, the pickup manufacturer, which is obviously you and the string manufacturer understand this concept because you have companies like Ernie Ball specifically going, hey, here's Cobalt. This is going to be really bright. You know, you're like, okay, cool. But you would think. And I know what it is. I have the answer, which is why I. I hate it. The answer is they're never going to say ever, something is not good for something, because then that. Right. They. They want the idea that this is good for everything.
- [46:09]
A
Yes. It's like, it's why you don't sell. It's. Someone told me it's. It's the same reason you don't sell vegetable wash in the vegetable section. Because it implies that the vegetables you're. The produce you're buying is dirty.
- [46:21]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [46:23]
A
I've. I've got another, like, sort of theory. Is that. The reason. The reason the frets are so tiny on, like, a vintage Les Paul, like a 52 Les Paul. I've got. I've got a couple of guitars that have the tiny frets. And if you play them with, like, lights, you're like, I can't stand this. But if you put, like. If you put mediums on them, you're like, oh, I think I get it. It actually plays easily. My fingers aren't straight. You know, the extra thickness of the string. So I had a guitar. Well, I have a. A refinished Les Paul special. And I'm like, I don't want to refread it. Like, the frets are, like, new on it, but they're the original frets. And I thought, I don't want to have to refread it. So I thought, I'll just try some heavy strings on it. And it's fine. It's a different tone. It's harder to bend. But I kind of think that they. This may be why they're small. People were using a thicker gauge string.
- [47:18]
B
And a wound G string on top of that. So it's more like an acoustic. Right.
- [47:22]
A
Yeah. And then the other. Yeah, go ahead.
- [47:25]
B
Oh, no, just because originally, I mean, I don't remember. We. Somebody could Google it. I don't remember when the plain G string popped up, but it wasn't. It was at least a decade, at least into the electric guitar's lifespan.
- [47:39]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think people were taking a banjo string and like, shifting the whole set or something, and so they could have a plain third.
- [47:45]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I think your theory is absolutely. Makes sense to me that, yeah. If you had vintage fret wire on a guitar, but everybody was probably playing at that time, a much thicker string. They can, of course. Because I don't know about you. Glad you pointed this out. This is something else that's funny. I go up a gauge from my normal gauge when I go pure nickel. So if I put nine steel or nickel wrap steel strings, if I put pure nickels on like that, that strap, that has tens.
- [48:17]
A
Yeah. Well, that would make sense because it is a little softer and you get a little bit more, I guess, string tension on it kind of counteract that. That little softer edge. Yeah.
- [48:30]
B
It's very important to me that there's a consistency in the string tension because of my muscle memory. So I, you know, something I never paid attention to. But when you, when you watch and listen, you know, when you hear. Not even the watch, when you hear yourself playing back, you're like, wow, I bent that sharp. I've been that sharp. And it's because I'm thinking of the guitar I'm playing, but I'm like, oh, yeah, that had nines on it. I play tens. So of course, muscle memory is just, you know, you're used to, like, this is how much strength you, you know, push. Right. It's kind of like I, I've, I. I have this horrible analogy, but I love it. It's kind of like when you think there's one more step and you do that. Whoa. Right. You know, you're. You're putting more pressure than you should. That's what happens. You have to be. I have to be very aware of that. And so that's why, like I said when I went to nickels or when I put nickels on guitars, I have to go up a gauge because like you said, they are just more malleable, more like I can just bend them a lot easier. And then all of a sudden, all my bends and it's not even. And this is what recording yourself teaches you. It's not even the. The actual tonal chart. You know, how it's the speed of the note.
- [49:37]
A
As far as, like, how quickly you get a reaction from.
- [49:40]
B
Yeah. You go from like, yeah, I'm gonna do a stupid thing. Okay. To wow. Like, it's just all of a sudden you're just. You get so. Even if you are paying attention, you bend a pitch so much faster because of that. That's why I use that analogy of the. You know, you think there's one more step or you think there's something in this empty box when you pick it up. You had no idea. You're just bending. You're. You're just used to a certain amount of. Like I said, the muscle memory are better. The tendon memory, whatever. On that note, I took you so much longer than what we talked about. I want to thank you so much.
- [50:11]
A
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you, Phil. It's enjoyable to. To talk to the legend.
- [50:18]
B
Oh, you know, you're too kind. It's funny, I have a, like, experience usually when I do these with somebody, they always go, oh, I can't believe you're doing the background because they see the show, the Friday show. I'm having that experience with you because you're. This is where you guys usually sit for your background is where you're sitting. So I'm like, oh, and I really mean that. I'll probably. Actually, I will. So for the audience listening, I'm going to not only send you a link to his. Put a link in the description to his website, which is important, but also to John's YouTube channel. I'll probably pick three video links specifically that I think are the first nerdy starts for where to go in your journey of your. Of your catalog of information. And then we'll end on this note. So you make a lot of different products. I would say, just as a starting point.
- [51:04]
A
People should know too that everything we make is made to order, but it ships in a week. Humbuckers are overwhelmingly. And then P90s and Fender products. But our biggest sellers are really the. The first four we started with, which was the SLE101. SLE101 plus, actually those. Those consistently bigger sellers. But we've introduced other models like KZ115, the ESG102B. Those right now are top four.
- [51:36]
B
And then on your single coils on this. On the single coil Strats.
- [51:39]
A
Single coils are our T59 sets, very popular. And we've just released the nocaster and broadcaster and they've pretty big. Pretty quickly become the most popular.
- [51:50]
B
Your shop is four people.
- [51:52]
A
Four people. It's me, Matthew Quayle, Paul Hudson and Todd Dine. And all the pickups around one by. Actually primarily by Paul. Paul is. And me. Paul and I are the two that do the winding and. But he. He is. He, at this point, has the most experience on the variety of machines that we have of any person, I think, on the planet, because he's been doing this for me for years. That's another kind of unique thing. The. There's no other person, I don't think alive, probably, that knows how to use all those machines and has as many hours on them as he does. I do all the Fender stuff and assembly of all the Fender stuff. Matthew does most of the. The PAF and P90 assembly. Paul does some, too, if we. If we need that sort of extra people to do that. And Todd does our aging of. Well, part of the aging process for our covers. And he also packages up the strings.
- [52:53]
B
On that note, guys, I want to thank you guys for your time. Until the next time, know your gear.