Knowledge Fight Episode #1081: Tucker, The Man And His Empiricist

October 3, 2025

Hosts: Dan & Jordan
Main Topic: Analyzing Tucker Carlson’s interview with Christian apologist Lee Strobel about supernatural experiences (angels, demons, miracles).

Episode Overview

Dan and Jordan delve into a recent episode of The Alex Jones Show by way of Tucker Carlson’s interview with Lee Strobel, a former journalist turned Christian apologist. Strobel has released a new book claiming to "investigate" supernatural phenomena—angels, demons, miracles, near-death experiences—through an allegedly empirical, journalistic lens. Dan and Jordan scrutinize both the interview and Strobel’s arguments, exposing the weak evidence, logical fallacies, and not-so-subtle culture war messaging embedded throughout.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tucker’s Framing: “Scientism” vs. The Supernatural

• Tucker’s Thesis [11:25]: Claims Western society has replaced religion with “scientism” — a fanatical worship of science that denies anything unmeasurable.

  • Quote [11:52, Tucker Carlson]: “There is a religion. It’s scientism... If it can’t be measured, it’s not real... The problem is our life contradicts it. Our daily experience is full of things that can't be measured.”

• Hosts’ Rebuttal [13:24]: Dan debunks the caricature, clarifying that science is iterative and never claims omniscience. Rather, it’s a system for testing ideas, subject to change if new evidence arises.

  “Science isn't a religion. This formulation is actually Tucker hiding the ball about what his actual argument is, which we'll get to as we go along.” — Dan [12:55]

• Subjective Experience ≠ Supernatural [15:10]: Jordan and Dan mock Tucker's claim that subjective sensory experiences are proof the "supernatural" exists.

2. Lee Strobel’s Empiricism—Or Lack Thereof

• Tucker’s Introduction of Strobel [17:51]: Presents Strobel as a former Chicago Tribune journalist “grounded in empiricism.”

• The Reality [19:09]: Dan points out Strobel hasn’t worked in journalism since 1987 and is mainly an apologist (i.e., an advocate, not an investigator).

  “He’s a charlatan parading around in an empiricist costume, feeding into a religious hysteria that’s going to be used to persecute a ton of people for no reason.” — Dan [19:05]

• Argument Style: Strobel’s “evidence” is almost always anecdotal, third- or even fourth-hand, often derived from other apologists (e.g., Billy Graham). No actual empirical standards are applied.

3. Anecdotes as "Proof"

Angels

• Classic Missionary Story [33:47]: Strobel recounts the tale of a missionary saved by a ring of angelic figures, sourced from Billy Graham, who in turn was retelling a late-1800s adventure story with no original mention of angels.

  • Hosts’ Dissection [36:19]: Dan traces the anecdote to its historical source and shows how it was embellished into the supernatural.

• Personal "Angel" Encounter [41:59]: Strobel describes a childhood dream about an angel questioning his worthiness to go to heaven.

  • Jordan’s Take [44:22]: “Dream-based evidence is not evidence. So no matter how convincing this story is or isn’t, it means nothing in our search for angels.”

• Modern Miracle Story [57:42]: Pastor rescued from an electrical accident by a mysterious man—presumably an angel. All “evidence” comes from the survivor’s account, who was likely dazed/in shock.

Miracles

• Blindness Healed [87:42]: Case study of a blind woman who regained sight after her husband’s prayer, published in a pseudo-scientific journal funded by faith-healing advocates.

  “If you go to the funding section, you’ll see that it was paid for by the very suspiciously named Global Medical Research Institute.” — Dan [91:22]

• Heidi Baker’s Mozambique Healings [95:59]: Described as a scientific experiment, but in reality is just lay “testing” at a faith healing service without any actual scientific rigor.

4. Supernatural Claims as Culture War Ammunition

Demonology and Satanic Panic

• Tucker and Strobel on Demons [62:54]: Demons are “fallen angels” led by Lucifer, running around the earth (except with finite numbers and vague powers).

  • Dan’s Satire [73:31]: “This sucks — I hate this kind of shit where the devil is CEO of Evil, Inc., and you’ve just dealt with middle managers all your life.”

• Friends is Satanic [108:17]: Strobel claims Satan strategically uses media like the sitcom Friends to normalize “immoral” (i.e., non-monogamous) relationships.

  • Jordan’s Response [109:20]: Points out how ridiculous it is to fixate on sitcoms, especially ones as tame as Friends.

Moral Panic/Reactionary Politics

• Teachers and Drag Performers [114:16, 117:33]: Strobel and Tucker frame teachers and drag queens as corrupted or tools for demonic influence over children.

  • Tucker’s “Healthy Society” Quote [117:55]: “A healthy society would not put up with it for five minutes... They’d drive them out of the temple immediately with a whip.”

• Mental Illness as Demonic [121:05]:

  • Quote [122:01, Lee Strobel]: “I think it can very well be [spiritual].”
  • Hosts’ Analysis [122:24]: Dan warns that equating mental illness with possession is not just unscientific—it's dangerous.

5. “Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence” (But Not Really)

• Flipping the Burden of Proof [51:41]: Strobel claims belief in demons is the universal default, so atheists must produce “extraordinary evidence” that demons don’t exist.

  • Dan’s Rebuttal [52:11]: Explains why this is a logical fallacy (“You can't prove a negative”).
  • Jordan’s Quip [53:39]: “I will prove it by living my entire life never having an encounter, and then dying, and then neither of us will care. Proof.”

• Miracles via Public Opinion Poll [102:13]: Strobel tries to leverage survey data (“Have you ever experienced a miracle?”) as proof that miracles occur.

  • Dan’s Debunk [103:25]: “If we’re going to assume 99% of these folks are wrong... why can’t we assume it’s possible that 100% are wrong?”

6. Other Supernatural Claims

• Speaking in Tongues [124:25]: Presented as spiritual languages interpreted only by the “gifted.” Jordan and Dan note it’s essentially an improv game.
• Near-Death Experiences [127:07]: Conflates “clinical death” with “brain-dead,” then uses anecdotal reports as evidence of an afterlife.
• Death Visions vs. Morphine [138:30]: Tucker claims modern medicine is cruelly depriving dying people of their “godly” visions by giving them morphine for pain.
• Ghosts and Psychics [144:25–147:08]: Strobel dismisses ghosts as demon apparitions and says consulting psychics should be a capital crime.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "If demons do exist, we ought to be heads up about it."
  — Lee Strobel (clip) [07:08]

• "This is a dumb leap he’s making now."
  — Dan, after another angel anecdote [58:47]

• "I hate this kind of shit where the devil is CEO of Evil, Incorporated, and you’ve just dealt with middle managers all your life."
  — Dan [73:31]

• "If you are deceiving people to your God, your God is a deceiver."
  — Jordan [154:53]

• "Why would you come up with that [belief in the supernatural]?"
  — Lee Strobel, then echoes it as a point of universality [49:55]

• "If they answered in the affirmative, informal tests were conducted..."
  — Dan reading from the Mozambique study, mocking the “science” of faith healing [98:38]

• "How do you know that angels don’t get married?"
  — Dan, calling out “empiricism” being replaced by Bible fanfiction [31:02]

• "Are you bitching about Friends in 2025?"
  — Jordan [109:26]

• "Why are you doing something other than what the book says?"
  — Dan, as Tucker pushes for a single literalist, supernatural Christianity [159:57]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [11:25] – Tucker’s “scientism” as a modern religion
• [17:51] – Introducing Lee Strobel, the “empiricist”
• [33:47] – Missionary angel story (debunked by Dan)
• [41:59] – Strobel’s childhood dream evidence
• [57:42] – Modern angel rescue story
• [62:54] – Demons are fallen angels / Lucifer’s job description
• [73:31] – Dan on Demonic “middle management”
• [87:42] – “Blind” woman healed by prayer: case study scrutinized
• [95:59] – Mozambique miracle “study”
• [108:17] – Satan uses Friends to corrupt American values
• [117:33] – Drag queen story hour and the decline of society
• [121:05] – Mental illness recast as demonic possession
• [127:07] – Near-death experiences: science vs. supernatural
• [144:25] – Ghosts are really demons
• [147:08] – Psychics should be killed (according to Bible/Tucker)
• [159:01] – Christian “normalcy” vs. supernatural literalism

Critical Takeaways

• “Empiricism” is costume jewelry: Despite marketing, Strobel offers no rigor or skepticism, just recycled church stories and bestselling “case for” book templates.
• Culture war framing: Despite surface-level detours into the supernatural, the real point is always a reactionary, exclusionary politics: demonizing (“literally”) alternative sexualities, non-religious teachers, drag story hours, etc.
• Weaponizing victimhood: Tucker positions Christians as victims in a secular world—any pushback on their beliefs (or efforts to limit proselytization) is painted as persecution.
• Dangerous consequences: The line between “demon” and “person with mental illness,” “gay person,” or “out-group” is deliberately eroded, justifying marginalization or abuse.
• Mocking but not totally dismissing faith: Dan and Jordan continually differentiate between personal religious belief (fine, harmless) and aggressive apologetics designed to justify control, discrimination, and bad policy.

Final Thoughts

Dan and Jordan find Strobel and Tucker’s discussion equal parts laughable and alarming. While the supernatural content is silly (dreams, “healing” miracles, sitcoms as devilry), it’s all in service of real-world political exclusion. At its core, this “empirical supernaturalism” is used to demand theocratic politics, shame marginalized groups, and pathologize dissent. The best defense, according to the hosts? Keep your MacGyver handy, call out the nonsense, and don’t let Evangelical demagogues define Christianity or public life.

Summary by PodcastSummarizerGPT
“The struggle for me here is that, sincerely, I don't hate Christians and I don't hate religious people, but this shit makes the position hard to defend.” — Dan [150:39]