#1100: Tucker, The Man And His Straight Friend

Summary

Knowledge Fight Podcast #1100: "Tucker, The Man And His Straight Friend"

Date: December 8, 2025
Hosts: Dan & Jordan

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Main Theme / Purpose

In this episode, Dan and Jordan take a break from their usual Alex Jones content to focus on a recent Tucker Carlson interview with Milo Yiannopoulos. They dissect and critique an extensive conversation aimed at demonizing homosexuality, discussing the Ugandan anti-gay law, false narratives about the origins of sexual orientation, and the right-wing's increasingly overt attacks on LGBTQ rights. The episode is a critical journey through right-wing rhetoric dressed up as "just asking questions," exposing both the bigotry and the internal turmoil of its participants.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening: Lighter Banter & Episode Setup

• The hosts start with their recurring "bright spots," reflecting on the lighter things in their lives before diving into the heavy topic at hand. (01:02–05:18)
• Dan sets the stage: They’re not covering Alex Jones, but responding to public demand for a breakdown of Tucker Carlson's interview with Milo Yiannopoulos—an episode Dan makes clear he didn't want to do:

  “I don’t want to do this episode… But public demand reached out and insisted that we do this.” (08:29)

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2. Who is Milo Yiannopoulos? (History and Context)

• Comprehensive recap of Milo’s rise and fall in right-wing media, his trolling persona, scandals, and public rebranding from “gay provocateur” to “ex-gay Catholic” (09:17–15:46).

• Dan's perspective:

  "Milo sucks, and I think he's one of the saddest figures in the modern attention economy." (14:36)

• The hosts clarify they won’t focus on Milo’s authenticity regarding his sexual orientation, as there are more substantive critiques to make.

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3. Analyzing Tucker’s Framing and Rhetoric

• “Why Are You Gay?” Memes and Uganda Praise (18:00–29:28)

  • Tucker opens his show with a meme from Ugandan TV, framing the question “Why are you gay?” as forbidden in Western culture.

    "Why are you gay? … It's kind of the question that no one in the United States is allowed to ask." (21:23)

  • Dan immediately dismantles this, noting there's no real taboo against discussing the origins of homosexuality in good faith, and that Tucker's framing is an excuse to push anti-gay views under the guise of free inquiry.

  • Ugandan Law: Tucker praises Uganda’s "anti-homosexuality act," misleadingly claiming it only criminalizes child rape and disease transmission—when in reality, it outlaws all homosexuality, imposes life sentences, and even allows for the death penalty against "serial offenders."

    “In reality, if you’re just consistently gay, you will be considered a serial offender, which counts as aggravated homosexuality, and you could get executed.” (31:32)

  • The hosts detail how this rhetoric sanitizes bigoted policies and weaponizes them against critics, painting anyone who opposes the law as pro-child abuse.

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4. Right-Wing Victimhood and Questions No One’s Asking

• Tucker’s narrative hinges on the idea that being gay is not an innate trait, but a choice or trauma response—a notion he revisits repeatedly, always implying that asking such questions is forbidden or groundbreaking.

• The hosts note this “forbidden question” trope is an old rhetorical trick to insulate bigotry from criticism:

  “He has to come up with this entire framework of how the gays are shoving it all in his face and trying to make his kids gay at school…” (59:30)

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5. Weaponizing Identity & The Pivot to Pete Buttigieg

• Tucker uses Pete Buttigieg’s history to argue that sexual orientation must be a choice, since Pete dated women before coming out.

  "But that doesn't really answer the question. Why was Pete Buttigieg with chicks for the first part of his adult life?” (46:55)

• Dan and Jordan dismantle this logic, noting the ongoing prevalence of homophobia and personal/family contexts that often delay people coming out.

• Jordan draws a historical analogy:

  "...when Jackie Robinson is playing baseball… they tokenize somebody who is proving excellence as another way of taking away, like, any quality of individuality you have." (51:01)

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6. Tucker’s Obsession with “Gayness as Political Currency”

• Tucker equates being openly gay with running your life or career on your sexual orientation, ignoring the hypocrisy of his own side’s perpetual focus on others’ sexual lives.

• Memorable:

  "...It's the whole point of Pete Buttigieg. It is the reason that he has the plurality of support from Democratic primary voters who are not black..." (50:00)

• The hosts highlight the “no way to win” scenario for LGBTQ people: criticized as both too flamboyant and too domestic.

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7. Milo’s Arrival: ‘Nobody Is Gay’ & Trauma Narrative

• Milo’s Core Thesis (70:27):

  • “Nobody’s gay. Nobody’s gay... in almost every male case, it is a trauma response. It is not a sexuality… It is a set of behaviors that emerges in people with… easily identifiable common etiologies.”
  • He blames overbearing mothers, absent fathers, and trauma (esp., abuse)—citing discredited Freudian theories.

• Dan points out:

  "…this is a personal thing that is not universalizable, and that's the trap that he falls into over and over and over again." (75:57)

• Milo frequently resorts to racist and antisemitic stereotypes, and at times directly attacks other public figures (e.g. Dave Rubin, Pete Buttigieg), blaming them for “furthering the gay agenda.”

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8. Self-Hatred, Self-Harm, and Conversion Therapy

• Milo admits to practicing self-harm (burns, flagellation) to “re-train” his sexuality, describing it as the crude form of conversion therapy:

  “…I was using, like, hot oil on my thighs… every time I get aroused, I'm going to go and do something that hurts, you know…” (142:27)

• Dan and Jordan stress the dangerous futility and harm of such practices, referencing scientific consensus that conversion therapy doesn’t work and increases trauma.

• On conversion therapy and law:
  Tucker and Milo misrepresent bans as prohibiting adults from seeking counseling, when in fact these bans protect minors from being abused by such programs.

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9. Societal Collapse via 'Gayness' — Absurd Arguments

• Milo claims that food, fashion, and society have been “faggotized” (his word), using a flurry of slurs and stereotypes to argue the “decadence” of modernity is the result of gay influence.

• Examples include complaints about restaurant menus, clothing, women being “too gay,” and even pop culture:

  “Now we force heterosexuals to listen to Lil Nas X, you know… Everything’s gone gay.” (162:39)

• Jordan skewers this:

  “…this is Tim Allen's early career. What is happening?” (157:21)

  • The hosts compare the arguments to bad '90s stand-up and "The Man Show" levels of false masculinity.

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10. Personal Regrets and Woeful Irony

• In honest moments, Milo admits deep self-loathing and regret for having mainstreamed homosexuality within conservative politics, wishing people had realized he was always actually anti-gay:

  “Mainstreaming homosexuality into the Republican Party is the great regret of my life…” (130:00)

• The hosts interpret this as an attempt to salvage his reputation with those who previously used him as a “token gay” shield, noting the inherent futility—he remains unwelcome on either side.

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11. Final Thoughts: Projection, Failure, and Right-Wing Pathology

• The episode ends with both hosts reflecting on the self-destructive, joyless state of not only Milo, but this whole new, hyper-bigoted right wing media ecosystem:

  “This is a portrait of a man at war with himself. It’s so clear how much he likes the designer brands of clothes and how important those are as status symbols for him…” (161:15)

• Dan:

  “…this is what Tucker’s putting out… This is not mild. This is so explicit and overtly homophobic.” (181:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

- On Uganda's Anti-Gay Law

• “In reality, if you’re just consistently gay, you will be considered a serial offender, which counts as aggravated homosexuality, and you could get executed.” (31:32, Dan)

- On Milo’s “Nobody Is Gay” Thesis

• “Nobody’s gay. Nobody’s gay. … It is a trauma response. It is not a sexuality…” (70:27, Milo)
• “I do not believe that abuse and trauma necessarily can change your sexuality, but I do believe that it can mess you up a bit and make things unclear… What Milo is trying to do is invalidate the existence of gay people by cherry picking…” (75:57, Dan)

- On Internalized Hate

• “Mainstreaming homosexuality into the Republican Party is the great regret of my life, more so than anything I've done to my own soul…” (130:00, Milo)

- On ‘Conversion’ Tactics

• “…every time I get aroused, I'm going to go and do something that hurts, you know, and so I took these… I got myself as far as celibacy, which is where I am. Coming in January, it’ll be five years of celibacy.” (142:07, Milo)
• “If he wants to self harm his way toward celibacy, I guess I can’t stop him. But to pretend there’s some larger wisdom here that can help anyone else, that’s fucking insane.” (145:10, Dan)

- On Right-Wing Media’s Evolution

• “Somehow they made shit smell worse. I don’t know how they’ve innovated.” (116:39, Dan)

- Summing Up the Episode

• “It traffics in lies and misinformation, and it’s bad. It’s boring. It’s not funny.” (181:47, Dan)

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Important Timestamps

• Episode Setup & Banter: 01:02–05:18
• Milo Background & “Why Milo?”: 09:15–16:00
• Uganda Law & Tucker’s Framing: 18:00–32:36
• Attacking Pete Buttigieg & Political Tokenism: 46:55–54:57
• Milo: “Nobody Is Gay”: 70:27 onward
• Milo’s Trauma Narrative & Self-Harm: 96:29, 142:07–145:10
• Food, Fashion, Society = ‘Gay’: 155:51–162:39
• Final Reflections/Milo’s Regret: 174:01–178:53
• Closing: 179:00–end

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Flow & Tone

• The podcast maintains Dan and Jordan’s signature blend of sharp critique, dry humor, empathy for victims, and impatience with performative bigotry.
• They frequently call out hypocrisy, projection, and rhetorical manipulation by Tucker and Milo, while threading in asides about the human consequences and societal stakes.
• The hosts are clear about the content’s toxicity and banality, using humor as a coping mechanism:

  “This is possibly one of the most embarrassing interviews I’ve watched... and we’re 1,100 episodes into this.” (158:50, Dan)

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Final Thought

This episode is a detailed deconstruction of the current right-wing pivot back to overt anti-gay bigotry, with Tucker and Milo as figureheads. Dan and Jordan expose the lies, projections, and personal failings behind the rhetoric—demonstrating how these conversations are as much about the speakers’ internal conflicts as they are about societal politics.

For listeners, it’s a thorough—and at times harrowing—exploration of modern reactionary media’s attempts to re-legitimize homophobia, with a warning: the hate is the point, and there’s nothing brave or new about these old arguments dressed up as free speech.

Transcript

[A]

Red alert. Red alert. Red alert.

[B]

Red alert.

[A]

Red alert. Red alert. Red alert.

[B]

Knowledge Fight.

Dan and Jordan.

[C]

I am sweating.

[B]

Knowledgebody.com. it's time to pray.

[C]

I have great respect for Knowledge Fight.

[B]

Knowledge.

[C]

I'm sick of them posing as if.

[B]

They'Re the good guys saying we are the bad guys. Knowledgeable. Fight.

[A]

Dan and Jordan.

[B]

Knowledge Fight.

[A]

I need.

[B]

I need money.

Andy in Kansas.

[A]

Andy. Andy, stop it. Andy in Kansas.

[C]

Andy in Kansas.

[B]

It's time to pray. Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.

[C]

Thanks for holding.

[B]

Hello, Alex. I'm a Christian color.

[A]

I'm a huge fan. I love your word. Knowledge Fight.

[B]

Knowledge fight dot com. I love you. Hey everybody. Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan.

[A]

I'm Jordan.

[B]

We're a couple dudes like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Oh indeed we are.

[A]

Dan, Jordan. Dan, Jordan, Quick question for you. What's your bright spot today, buddy?

[B]

Why don't you go first?

[A]

My bright spot is that my dispensary and I don't normally. I don't Normally advertise, but dispensary 33, huge fan expedition.

[B]

33 of weed.

[A]

Of weed. Right. They had a 10 year anniversary, huge sale. Right.

[B]

Everything must go.

[A]

Oh my God, we gotta move this weed. Include, include the medical. Include some other stuff. I got so much for so little crazy. And it was, it was nice. But what it made me think of was whenever I used to try and buy weed in high school youl know, and it was like you would spend maybe 20 bucks on a couple of buds and they were trash. Absolute trash. And I thought about it and I was like if I had a time machine I could go back and just fucking liquidate this shit for thousands of this would kill people in the early thousands.

[B]

Yeah. Probably too potent.

[A]

It's.

[B]

They would be too much of it.

[A]

Oh, it would explode their brains.

[B]

Yeah. Like back in those days you would like embark on trying to get weed and you might not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like you could hit up a guy and like I'll get you. I'll get back to you. I'll let you know.

[A]

I'm out. My guy is out. It's like that was a thing you would hear. You would hear it. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And just imagining back then a sale.

[A]

Yeah.

Yeah. The idea of 33% off sale.

[B]

It was a 10th anniversary sale. Crazy.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Yeah. Those days were more fun.

[A]

I think there was fun to it that doesn't exist anymore. But at the same time it was incredibly stupid.

[B]

The certainty of it is nice now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I guess that's the trade off.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. There's. You do lose a little magic whenever you don't have to go schlep for it.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and when it doesn't feel a little bit seedy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. There should be somebody you kind of don't want to talk to involved in the transaction. And that's just. That's just an important part of overcoming we.

[B]

But I still think those. Some of those people you probably don't want to hang out with those people at the weed shop. I'm sure I bet some of you just don't get a chance to find out why you don't want to hang out with them.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

And they're too professional and.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. They're professional. They don't have to be bad people. They're not allowed to be the bad people. They deeply are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're not enthralled to that.

[B]

Maybe that's the problem. Yeah. Maybe they should be free.

[A]

The power imbalance is the problem.

[B]

No. Maybe the employees should act more freely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe scare you a little.

[A]

Maybe. Maybe sometimes ask if you want to up your game a little bit this time, you know, and you're like, I don't know what you mean. And they're like, you know what I mean?

[B]

I got a gun.

That's great.

[A]

That's a dispensary right there.

[B]

That's customer service.

[A]

Absolutely. What's your bright spot?

[B]

So, Jordan, it is the 8th today, December 8th. So it's time for more cheese.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

Cheese.

[B]

Thank you to Alexandra for that sting. It is time to have more cheese.

[A]

All right. What kind of cheese are we talking about? This.

[B]

December 8th today we got red leister.

[A]

Red leister?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Red leister means.

Well, I mean. What do you mean?

[B]

I assume it's a British thing, because Leicester.

[A]

So it's the leic.

And then they say that it's pronounced Leicester.

[B]

Yeah, something like that.

[A]

As opposed to leecher ester.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is what we all actually believe.

[B]

I also need to fill people in because we've missed a few days because of, like, when we record.

[A]

That is how it works.

[B]

I had a bruschetta. That was really good.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I had a goat cheese. That was fine.

[A]

It was a fine goat cheese.

[B]

Adam. That was a little too much.

[A]

Never heard of an Adam. What is that?

[B]

It was a little too much.

[A]

All right, fair enough.

[B]

It was a little tart.

[A]

Tart cheese.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't care for it as much as some of These others. But yeah, I forgot what the other ones were. But sure, we'll fill you in next time. But now it's time for Jordan to vamp.

[A]

Yes. What we are talking about. Whenever you bring up an Adam cheese, the first thing I think of is the Adam from Adam and Eve story. And I wonder to myself, if you're in the Garden of Eden, right, and there is a talking snake, why bother talking to it? You know, at what point do you think, ah, this snake. Not interested. Not interested. Snake.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yep. What's going on?

[B]

Never talk to a snake. Number one. Yep. Number two, you could have told me that was a cheddar and I would have believed you. Yeah, I think that's gonna be a theme.

[A]

That could all be cheddar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you know that cheese all tastes exactly the same and everybody's just been lying to us the whole time?

[B]

You could trick me into thinking this is cheddar. Might be the name of the.

Segment.

[A]

From now on, cheese is all snake based.

[B]

That's good, though. I like that.

[A]

You like it? Yeah, it looks a lot like a cheddar.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It has a little bit more of a bite to it perhaps. But I could not really describe it any more than that.

[A]

Any time they show the like, oh, on the Amazing Race, you know, they'll have the eight cheeses and you have to put them at fuck that. Nope, I'll never win way. I'll never do it.

[B]

That olive one on this season.

[A]

What are you talking about? Yeah, that was. Four of them looked exactly the same and they knew it.

[B]

Yeah, those look. I love Greece. Sure. That was dirty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or was that in Italy? I can't remember.

[A]

I don't know. It was dirty no matter what.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, today, Jordan, we have an episode that is dirty as hell.

[A]

All right.

[B]

To go over. This sucks. I don't want to do it and I'm sorry in advance.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

But we're doing it. Okay. And let's say hi to some wonks first before we get into this.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So first, shout out to the goons of C Spam who keep me laughing through the nihilism. We're all gonna die, but at least lolax did it first. Love, Norris. Thank you so much. You're now a policy wonk.

[C]

I'm a policy wonk.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

Thank you. Next. Who is Kyle Seraphin married to? Thank you so much. You're now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

Thank you. And to John Musser. Have a happy birthday, thank you so much. You're now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

And we got a technocrat in the mix, Jordan, so thank you so much, too. Every time my band covers Mr. Jones by the Counting Crows, I fight the urge to sing Alex Jones instead of Mr. Jones. Thank you so much. You and I were technocrat. I'm a policy wonk.

[C]

Four star.

[B]

Go home to your mother and tell her you're brilliant. Someone, someone. Sodomite sent me a bucket of poop. Daddy Sharp.

Jar Jar Binks has a correct Caribbean black accent.

[C]

He's a loser.

[B]

Little, little kitty baby. I don't want to hate black people. I renounce Jesus Christ. We all want to be Bob Dylan.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Alex Jones wishes he was someone a little bit more funky.

[A]

Alex Jones and me tell each other fairy tales.

[B]

Yeah. But they're. They're slightly off.

[A]

They're very different. They're different fairy tales, that's for sure.

[B]

So, Jordan, today we're not going to. We're not going to talk about Alex today.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

We're going off the beaten path a little bit. And so I want to. Like, I've already said this, but I want to repeat it.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

I don't want to do this episode.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

I didn't want to do this. Public demand reached out and insisted that we do this.

[A]

Just public demand reached out.

[B]

The world demanded it.

[A]

The world as a whole.

[B]

And as it turns out, the timing was just right, and I could have used a little break from Alex after that last episode. So here we are. We're talking about Tucker interviewing Milo Yiannopoulos today about why people are gay, and it's a complete disaster. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

Is such a mess.

[A]

Great.

[B]

The extreme right wing that Tucker represents has decided that they've done enough demonization around trans people, and now it's time to fully commit to attacking homosexuality as a valid part of society. They want to undo that progress and are setting their sights on that.

[A]

Yeah, that's about how poems work for.

[B]

Anyone who hasn't followed his history. Milo Yiannopoulos was a blogger working for Breitbart who rose to huge levels of popularity in the era around the 2016 election. He positioned himself as a gay man who supported the extreme right, which is his entire brand. He was a troll, and he talked all kinds of shit on LGBTQ folks in the same way that pretty much everyone in his world did at the time. But he was a gay man, which gave him access to a different kind of Trolling. And it created a very lucrative place for him to exist in that market. He was different than the other guys around his political space because he was fun. He was a sassy dude who did a ton of cocaine. And he had a sense of humor. He really wasn't all that funny, but he had the speech patterns that sound like someone who's saying something funny. And every now and then, he landed a pithy line because he was different from the stuffy right wingers you'd find in his media. He was afforded a lot of opportunities that his peers didn't get, like being a regular guest on Joe Rogan's podcast and other shows that presented themselves as non political at the time. Milo was one of the first large accounts who were kicked off Twitter. And it led to him finding an important role in the pretend free speech activism that was popular around that time. He would plan speeches at college campuses and then monetize the outrage that was created by the student body not wanting him to be there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it was a cycle.

[A]

That was a whole thing.

[B]

Among his contemporaries, I find Milo a bit more fascinating because beyond his need to incite outrage, there's not really much to him. There isn't much to him past this troll shit. And everyone just. If they just ignored him, his act wouldn't work and there would be no money for him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I do suspect that Milo's always known that, which is why he had to be more sensational than his peers. He had to do things that would guarantee backlash, because as people started to catch on that he was just trying to elicit a response from them to get paid, it would become harder to create that response. By being even more extreme than the people around him, Milo was trying to make sure that what he did caused outrage even among the people who might ignore some of the other guys in that media space. And being a gay man helped him out considerably in that he was able to say flagrantly homophobic things that his heterosexual peers would probably have a tough time pulling off. And because he was gay, he never really needed sources. He could say something sensational about gay people. And if he needed to back up where he was getting this from, he could always just appeal to his own authority as someone who was gay. I'm gay, I know this stuff.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

He was doing really well in late 2016 when he was poised to release his autobiography, Dangerous, along with a bus tour of public incitement events to promote it called the Dangerous F Tour.

[A]

What a huge mistake that was.

[B]

In the lead up to the book's publishing. Some videos of Milo's podcast appearances went around social media and kind of destroyed his career. They featured him discussing gay relationships and included him arguing that relationships between older men and 13 year old boys were totally fine if the 13 year old is emotionally mature, which many people interpreted as him condoning pedophilia.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's what it would be.

[B]

Later, Milo would go on to explain that a lot of this stuff was based on him trying to rationalize his own past as a survivor of child abuse and that he was raped by a priest at age 13. At the time he did these podcast interviews, he didn't view that interaction as abuse and thought of himself as the instigator of the sexual relationship. And that perspective informed what he was saying in those interviews. Sure. I think it's important to let people who have experienced trauma understand that trauma, how they feel is appropriate. It's not for me to demand that you take on my definitions of the things that you experienced in your life. So I think that if Milo had just said in these interviews that he had sex with an adult man as a 13 year old and didn't consider it to be abuse, there wouldn't have been a problem. It would have been one person discussing their perspective, which you're welcome to agree or disagree with. But if he expressed himself like that, then it wouldn't have been heard as something that, you know, he felt it should be universalized. Yeah, he wasn't just speaking about his own experience though. He instead he was making prescriptive statements that minimize the impact of adults having sex with children and that basically destroyed his career forever.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Almost immediately, his publisher dropped him in his autobiography and he had to resign from Breitbart and stop getting money from the Mercers. He became a wholly toxic presence. And most of the right wing fans who liked his provocative antics in the past, they just couldn't justify this. It was a bridge too far. His career fell apart, and by 2021, he was trying to rebrand as a formerly gay man, which probably sucked for Milo's husband. Ultimately, he probably made the right choice for his career because there was nothing left for him as a gay man in the media space that he helped create. It is too overtly homophobic.

[A]

Yeah. Now we hate gay people too much for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before we needed you, we needed you to help us get rid of people caring about you. Yeah, it makes sense.

[B]

Coming out as straight was probably meant to be a big, provocative spectacle for Milo to get back on top in the Attention economy. But I think that most people just laughed at him. Beyond anything having to do with a person's sincere or private sexual orientations, it seemed like a cry for attention. He would then go on to intern for Marjorie Taylor Greene before teaming up with Nick Fuentes on Ye's 2024 presidential campaign. And then that all got ugly.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Along the way, one thing has become very clear about Milo, though. He holds grudges and he fights dirty. He released a bunch of secret recordings and private texts from figures in the right wing media like Paul Joseph Watson and Dave Rubin. So most figures in this space, they don't want. They probably don't want to associate with him all that much. He's dangerous now, but kind of only to them. He knows a lot of their dirty laundry for, you know, personal lives and financial models. So no one in the right wing media can really crush him, but no one wants to hang out with him either. Milo sucks, and I think he's one of the saddest figures in the modern attention economy. But I want to make sure that I say one thing clearly at the start of this episode. I don't care if he's gay or straight now. Sure, a lot of people like to dunk on him about how he's still gay and just pretending to be straight to create a new space for himself in the media. And I think that's a fruitless attack. If he wants to say he's straight now, I don't think it matters. There are so many other things to criticize and make fun of him for. And in and of itself, there's nothing inherently wrong with having shifting sexual attraction. If anyone else wants to make fun of him for that stuff, I'm not judging them. But I'm gonna try to leave that out of my critique as much as possible.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

Cause I just, I don't think it's. I don't think it's necessary.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, and it's not. It's not even about okay. In that kind of situation, if it were to matter, it would be because it's a genuine expression from a person to another person trying to communicate with them. In Milo's case, whatever it is he's saying he is at any given point in time is only to exploit you because without you, he doesn't give a shit. You know, it doesn't matter to him.

[B]

He exists as the thing that creates a response that you are doing, you are making.

[A]

So whatever he is saying to you is part of the creation of that response. And therefore Isn't real.

[B]

Yeah. You know, Well, I think that's probably true a lot of the time, but I don't want to fall into the trap of, like, losing sight of. He is a human too.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Like, not everything everybody does has to be insincere. Sure. And there's stuff that he, you know, he's talking about in terms of his life that are like, yeah, you're probably a pretty fucked up dude. Sure. You probably have some real struggles. So, like, it's not all, you know, what. What can I do to provoke a response?

[A]

No, I'm with you.

[D]

There's.

[B]

There's a battle going on too.

[A]

I agree. I think part of the reason that I'm far less likely to give him the benefit of the doubt on that just simply is because he came on with that kind of agreement that if you don't look at me, I don't exist, you know? So his even initial burst onto the scene is purely like, I don't have anything. I don't make anything, I don't do anything that exists outside of you paying attention to me, you know, and that's. That's like, fuck you. That's our whole lives ruined. Yeah.

[B]

And I want to be clear. I don't have anything against that perspective. Sure. That you have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't have anything against that. Yep. I. I'm just the SAP.

[A]

You're a better person than me.

[B]

Keep. Keep a humanity.

[A]

Right, Right. Right.

[B]

In my. In my view.

[A]

Right. I'm a psycho. Psychopathic murderer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So one of the things that's interesting about this episode is that Milo doesn't come on for the first half hour. Okay. Tucker is given a little bit of a lecture at the beginning. He wants to set the table for his guest.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I'm gonna just say this also in advance. There are a number of slurs that are gonna be thrown around in this episode. And it is. I don't even know how to warn anyone in advance when things are gonna get real messy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This whole thing is going to be messy.

[A]

I presume we're going to be getting a lot of that f. Slur.

[B]

There's quite a bit of it.

[A]

You better believe it.

[B]

But not from Tucker. At least not the first half hour.

[C]

Of all the great memes and clips on the Internet, fat kid falls off bike being, of course, the top of the list. Really? In the last 13 years. Thirteen years this week, almost nothing created on this planet has surpassed in popularity or sheer hilarity an interview that took place on Ugandan television in December of 2012 on a show called Morning Breeze, the morning show of Kampala, Uganda, in which a trans activist, a woman who now identifies as a man, came on and was asked a series of questions by the host. And if you don't know what we're talking about, here is a two second clip that reveals the essence of the conversation.

[B]

Why are you gay?

[A]

Why are you gay?

[C]

It's.

[A]

Let's play that again.

[C]

Why are you gay? It's still the funniest thing that's ever been on the Internet.

[B]

I think. I think there have been some funnier memes, but whatever. So Tucker is starting the show on this note because Uganda is a country with a government that's very hostile towards homosexuality, which is what Tucker wants for the United States. And so his opening volley in this is to be like, they're not so bad. This. This government isn't so bad. Yeesh.

[A]

Oh, boy. You know, I was, whenever he started talking, I heard him say about the culture that we have created, you know, top of the list, fat kid falls off bike.

[B]

So good.

[A]

You know, And I was just, I was just thinking about that and I was like, maybe I was born in the wrong time. Like, wouldn't it be nice if he was like, you know what my favorite book is of Human bondage? Like, you know, it would be nice if there was something more than just fat kid falls off bike. That's who we are now, man.

[B]

At least when I was younger, somebody would be like, funniest thing, dirty work. At least, you know, effort in it.

[A]

Absolutely. You had to go find it.

[B]

Yeah. So why, why is this funny? This guy saying, why are you gay? Why is this funny?

[A]

Why? Why?

[C]

But why is it funny? And why does almost everyone find it funny? Left, right, straight, gay?

Well, because it's kind of the key question and it's kind of the question that no one in the United States is allowed to ask. Why are you gay? And of course, it's being asked by an East African with kind of a quaint, semi colonial accent. And, you know, conservatives can laugh at it, liberals can laugh at it. Really, this is the kind of the only way a white liberal in the United States could ever laugh at a black person. If it's an African expressing non PC views on homosexuality, why are you gay? And of course, people in the west laugh because the guy's an idiot. Why are you gay? We all know why you're gay. Why are you gay? Actually, we're laughing in part because we're not allowed to ask that. Question.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

What?

[B]

Who banned asking the question about why people are gay? I don't think that's a forbidden subject. And I think a lot of queer art has to do with exploring that kind of theme and that. That area.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Countless studies have been done trying to isolate genes or possible variables in nature versus nurture debates. Why does Tucker think that people in this country aren't allowed to ask that kind of question? If you're asking it and you're actually interested in hearing other people's answers, no one gives a shit. If you're curious, like, about how people engage with their own sexuality, like, it's not. This is not a forbidden topic.

[A]

Yeah, no.

[B]

Whenever you hear someone like Tucker say that asking a certain question is forbidden, it's important to understand that this is a signifier that what he's talking about isn't a question. He doesn't care about the question of where does homosexuality spring from. He's already got an answer and he doesn't like that. Most people in our country don't like that answer. He thinks that homosexuality is illegitimate and a sin. So when he asks why are people gay? He's not really interested in exploring possible answers. He just wants to make the way he's calling gay people sinners come off like a question that society won't let him ask because it's such a dangerous, mind expanding question. And it's just a game. It's.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, in a different kind of context. What he's really saying is, why do we allow you to exist?

[D]

Mm.

[A]

You know, like. And I mean, if you want describe it sin wise, you know, why does God allow you to exist? Are you just a test of faith for me? Because really, you should be dead. Is ultimately the underwiring of that like a fox smiling at chickens?

[B]

Yeah. No, it's almost like Tucker's doing an HR meeting and he's like, what do you bring to the company?

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Why are you still employed with White America llc?

[A]

We need to downsize all gay people.

[B]

Well, unless they can justify it.

[A]

Oh, boy, that's no good.

[B]

So it's settled. It's settled. Everyone understands why people are gay. Or is it.

[C]

Actually we're laughing in part because we're not allowed to ask that question. It's settled, though. No one's really explained what about it is settled. If you were to ask the average American, why are people gay, they would probably say, well, they're born that way. And then if you followed up with, well, how exactly does that work? They would have no idea. And would tell you to shut up. Because again, like so many myths or things that we think we know, we don't really know. We can't really explain it, but we do know for dead certain we're not allowed to talk about it. So when some African morning show host in Uganda, wherever the hell that is, asks it out loud, we can't help but laugh nervously. Why are you gay?

[B]

Tucker has created an imaginary arguing partner here where he asks why people are gay. They say they were born that way. Then Tucker asks a follow up and the person gets mad and tells him to shut up. What if that person is just Tucker's fantasy of what someone he disagrees with is like? What if it were possible that someone in that conversation wouldn't crumble after a basic rebuttal and could be like, well, here's, you know, here's what some people believe. Here are some thoughts around the subject.

[A]

Do you want to do this? Do you really want to do this?

[B]

Are you just an asshole?

[A]

We can do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's almost as if Tucker has created a fantasy of a person to argue with solely to justify his insane position that no one is allowed to ask questions about homosexuality. This seems like insane behavior.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it is. It is like this.

Based upon the amount of content we consume in our little bubble. Right. We think that people outside of our bubble will get mad at us if we say these things.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But we will never speak to people outside of this bubble.

[B]

Why would we?

[A]

So.

We have created a situation where the people we are most afraid of are inside of our own heads. And the people who reinforce those people are the people that we talk to all the time. Leaving the people who we are actually afraid of completely out of the equation entirely.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you know, like it's. It's cartoon shit. It's.

[A]

It is cartoon shit. Absolutely.

[B]

So dumb.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So Tucker, he's excited about this Ugandan TV show. Sure, sure. So he talks a little bit about it. And by talk I mean lie.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If you watch the whole interview, and actually it's worth watching because it's really revealing both about Uganda and about the west, the first thing you notice is how polite everybody is. That tone, why are you gay? Continued throughout the entire interview, which lasted over an hour. Just watched it. And the morning show host, whether you like him or dislike him, was just unfailingly polite to the guest who was him or herself. Also unfailingly polite. And they were just sort of talking past each other. The trans activist couldn't really explain why he or she was gay or whether gay was different from trans or what was good about being gay. That was another question the host asked, why would you want to be gay? And the trans activist just didn't really have an answer.

[B]

Tucker is representing himself as a person who's watched this whole interview on the Ugandan morning show. And if that's true, then he's lying about its contents. He's either lying about having watched the whole thing or he's lying about what happens in it. It's true enough that the interviewer and the trans man human rights activist on the show have a mostly polite exchange throughout, though they aren't on the same page. And he's right. They kind of talk past each other a little bit.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

What Tucker seems to have missed is that there was another guest on the show who was an aggressively anti gay pastor who makes horrible accusations about gay people and won't shut up even when the host is asking him nicely to show his guest some respect. About halfway through the interview, this pastor shows up at the studio and has brought a bunch of vegetables and that he uses as props yelling about how gay people use them for sex.

[A]

Alright.

[B]

The pastor comes off like an asshole and the activist comes off as a person who has to put up with a lot of assholes who doesn't want to engage in schoolyard bullying.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Also, the activist guest doesn't fail to answer these basic questions. He does a fine job of explaining the difference between trans and gay and actually explains that he's not gay as he's attracted to women. I get that Tucker doesn't like these answers or refuses to understand them, but. But he's just lying if he says that they weren't articulated in the interview. It's a big piece of shit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes I stop and I think, you know, I pull back and I go, what is it with these weirdos obsessed with other people's flesh tubes that fill with blood when they see stuff sometimes? Isn't that weird?

[B]

Well, there's a real morality to it to the flesh tubes.

[A]

Is there? It's just a flesh tube that fills with blood and we're all fucking monkeys. So what are we doing here?

[B]

Yeah, well, I think that's an interesting perspective. And you're not allowed to ask that kind of question.

[A]

I don't think I am allowed to ask that kind of question, America.

[B]

So Tucker, like this meme of the why are you gay? This is a launching pad for him to talk about the morning show thing. But it's really to get to a law that was passed in Uganda that he wants people to be a little bit softer on.

[C]

But the host was coming from a position of total certainty that this is just weird and wrong. And that is the consensus in a lot of the world, and it's certainly famously the consensus in Uganda, and the consensus in the United States across both parties and pretty much the whole educated population is they're horrible because they think homosexuality is wrong. And we know this because about 10 years later in Uganda, the legislature passed almost unanimous, unanimously, with only, I think, one dissenting vote, a law against something called aggravated homosexuality. Aggravated homosexuality, as of 2023 is a death penalty offense in Uganda. What? Aggravated homosexuality, a death penalty offense. That's medieval. But how is it defined in Uganda? Well, if you read it, and you can, because it's online.

The Ugandan government.

Defines aggregated homosexuality as gay rape of children, gay rape of the elderly who can't consent, people over 75, gay rape of people who are mentally deficient, and the intentional transmission of deadly diseases to another person. So it's rape and murder, effectively are against the law. In fact, capital crimes in Uganda. Hmm. It's a little different than advertised.

[B]

So the thing that Tucker is failing to point out here is that the law he's trying to sell his audience on is called the Anti Homosexuality act of 2023. It's a broad attack on the rights of LGBTQ Ugandans, and Tucker fully understands that. He's trying to put a good face on it because he wants the US to pass a similar act. Tucker is trying to present the image that this law is just making raping children illegal. But that was already illegal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All of the things that he's saying that this law accomplishes were already illegal. The category of aggravated homosexuality in this act, it does include things like abusing children or the elderly. And those things should be crimes, but legally categorizing them as kinds of homosexuality is already a dicey thing to do. And this bill is pretty unnecessary. But what Tucker is conveniently ignoring is that according to the act, which you can read because it is online, as he points out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The definition of aggravated homosexuality also includes, quote, serial offenders. This is because the act makes all homosexual activity a crime. But if you're only caught being gay once, you can get sentenced to life in jail. Just attempting to commit a homosexual act can get you up to 10 years in jail.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Aggravated homosexuality gets a person the death sentence. And Tucker's trying to present the picture that it's just for things like people who abuse children. In reality, if you're just consistently gay, you will be considered a serial offender, which counts as aggravated homosexuality, and you could get executed.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Consenting adults engaging in homosexual acts or attempting to.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

The act does a number of other things, too. For instance, if you attend someone else's gay wedding, even if it's an informal commitment ceremony, you could go to jail for 10 years. That's not just for getting gay married. That's for going to the wedding. You can go to jail for taking any actions that are considered to be promoting homosexuality, which would include engaging in human rights activism. Like the person on the morning show interview Tucker didn't watch was doing. You can go to jail for leasing or subleasing your house or apartment to a gay person. This is what Tucker is trying to sell his audience on by pretending that it's all just about making abusing children illegal. He's doing this because he's a liar and a bigot, and he knows that it would be too hard for him to just argue in favor of sending gay people to jail for life. He knows that most normal, everyday people don't want to live in that kind of world. So if he wants to sell this to the audience, he's got a lie. And this is the way that you lie.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Can you believe people are so upset about this bill?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's so common sense.

[A]

I don't know how many times you can get into a situation where you go, well, these people who I nominally trust are telling me that it's only the bad ones. And then five years later you go, but it's everybody. And then they go, ah, well, it's only the bad ones again, like, you gotta learn after once. You got to learn after one. Well, you can't do a three. You can't wait for a pattern.

[B]

It would be wise to start understanding these. These cyclical natures of this behavior.

[A]

You got to get this one. This one's right on the nose.

[B]

Yeah. So the. The whole thing of creating the fake version of this bill is meant to, first of all, sanitize it, make it more appealing to the audience, naturally, but also to use as an attack against people who oppose that bill, of course. And so that becomes most of what he talks about.

[C]

But it wasn't just Biden. Here's Senator Ted Cruz, the self described conservative from Texas. Here's what he said. He tweeted this. He put this in writing, as he so often does, and we're quoting any law Criminalizing homosexuality or imposing the death penalty for, quote, aggravated homosexuality is grotesque and an abomination. All civilized nations should join together in condemning this human rights abuse.

So it's uncivilized to penalize gay rape or the intentional transmission of a deadly disease. That's uncivilized.

Seems kind of civilized, but at the time, nobody agreed this was grotesque. The kind of thing that only Africans would do. It's one step up from cannibalism. Can you believe it? Penalizing gay rape and the intentional transmission of aids. What do I think of next? It'll throw you in a stew pot savages.

[B]

Tucker constructed the fake version of this law partially because it's the easiest way for him to support it without doing the really hard bigot work, and because he can then use it to attack people who are against the law. If this really is just about making abusing children and spreading disease illegal, and how could Ted Cruz be against that? The only explanation is that Ted Cruz must be in favor of child abuse and spreading diseases.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Come on. It's clear as day.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

This is a very simple rhetorical trick, and Tucker knows that he can get away with it because he knows his audience are either bigots who get what he's saying, or they're too stupid to consider that he might be a liar and is lying to their fucking faces.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no other real explanation for who could be in his audience at this point.

[A]

Yeah, you know, it. It's fucking crazy because while it's. Okay, all right, so you can see the pipeline, right? And it keeps going back in America. It's the like, oh, this is a reasonable bill. It's just. It's just for escaped slaves. It's not just for. It's not for all black people. It's just escaped slaves that can be grabbed from their homes, ripped towards there, and then be forced to back into a life of slavery because they're property. No big deal. It's just this. And that takes you to the next guy, and the next guy's like, well, we got to get them all into slavery because they're all not people. And then you got the next guy who's like, well, let's just kill. Right? The pipeline has been the exact same. This is the gay pipeline. This is that. No, it's just the ones who are doing this to the well. I mean, it's all of them to the well. We got to kill them. Right? But all of that. These people create this pipeline, but who the fuck is getting caught in it? And not being, you know, not like.

[B]

As an audience, you know, you're a.

[A]

You'Re, you're a fucking person. Right. Like grow the fuck up and look at where you're at. If you're in a murder pipeline, it's 2026, man. Yeah. 2025 still.

[B]

Well, I think that unfortunately a lot of people have probably got caught in a confidence game of Tucker and believe him to be a straight up actor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the space. And so that's bad. I think that people are a lot of times busy or don't have the wherewithal to actually look stuff up themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they could take his word for it. And if you believe what he's saying, then Uganda just outlawed a bunch of horrible crimes.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And everybody's saying that it's so, so bigoted of them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So like you would have every reason to think that everyone is overreacting and this is a bunch of bullshit. If you crazy. If they just took that affirmative step of like going to check.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And read this stuff for themselves, I think that it would poke some holes in his sincerity disguise.

[A]

I mean that just. But anytime somebody's like, this is just the reaffirming of the 10th Amendment all over again, it's like, hey, you're making a lot of crimes against the law. Like we already, those are already against the law. So if you're making a new law, then you're doing something else.

[B]

There's a piece of this. That.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's something you're trying to sneak in.

[A]

Exactly. Come on now.

[B]

And it's making being gay illegal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the international community also was very opposed to this. Unsurprising because they apparently are super into things like gay rape and spreading disease.

[A]

Sounds true.

[B]

The World bank said they weren't going to loan, of course. And then foreign aid got pulled and.

[C]

Then finally Joe Biden in October of 2023 spun fully into a frenzy at this point watching taking the lead of the World bank announced that Uganda would be expelled from the group of sub Saharan African countries that benefit from tax break under the US African Growth and Opportunity Act AGOA because of the country's quote, gross violations of internationally recognized human rights which violate the AGOA eligibility criteria. So that was 2023. So bottom line, no more money for you.

What happened next? Well, Uganda and starved. Next year there was a famine. Not to laugh at famine, but it's almost unbelievable. So you, you ban, you ban gay rape of children and the elderly and the mentally disabled and we're gonna starve you Out. And boy, did they. The United States shut it down. International aid institutions followed suit. And the next year, Uganda had a famine that is still ongoing. 50% of children in Uganda today suffer the symptoms of malnutrition, stunted growth, anemia. 50%. Half of all Ugandan kids are starving.

And of course, Uganda's never been a rich country. It's had a lot of turmoil. IDI Amin was from there. Uganda has some problems for sure.

But the year after the west collectively withdrew aid from Uganda. Billions in aid. They have a famine and it's all because they banned gay rape of children. Okay. So I guess the point here is.

Our values are pretty clear. We're for this and we're totally against questioning it.

[B]

To be totally clear about this, Tucker doesn't want to send any aid to the people of Uganda. Yeah. He was perfectly happy with the Doge bullshit. So he can come off that soapbox trying to pretend that he wishes Biden would have kept sending money to this other country because kids are hungry. Jesus Christ. Fuck right off.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't care that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He doesn't give a shit about any of this stuff and he knows that he's lying about the anti gay act. Like this is just a charade.

[A]

It's parodic.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I don't even know how else to describe it then to be. This is not sincere.

[A]

This is what somebody on SNL would think is an extreme thing. This would be them being like, they would look at how hilarious. Well yeah, obviously they would be funnier. But I mean that laugh, like haha. Not to laugh at famine. That's. That's the type of thing people joking about. You would say.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and I was, I spent a good while thinking about that moment. That laugh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't think that he's laughing at the misfortune of famine. Sure. He has paper in front of him. So like he has his notes and you know, this isn't just extemporaneous.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[B]

And so I think that what's going on is he realizes he's about to say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That he's about to say that there was a famine that was caused by the US withdrawing aid because they made this bill outlawing gay rape. And I think he's laughing because he knows that his audience is that dumb.

[A]

That they'll buy that it's an ain't I a stinker Laugh.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That's how it felt to me. Yep. I'm reading into it. Things that you know are just Vibe based it.

[A]

It feels very much like this is a. I can't believe I'm getting away with this bullshit.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's the overall sense I got.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So we're told that people are born gay and all that, but is that true?

[C]

We have been told for the course of my life that you're born gay. It's like handedness or eye color or height. It's just something that you're born with. God created you that way. You are unique. Your iris, your fingerprints, your sexuality, they're all unique to you. And that's something not to be embarrassed of. Unless you're a white man, in which case, of course, slink away in shame, be denied admission to college or a job. But for everyone else, your immutable characteristics are something that you celebrate, that you should be proud of, not something that you chose. They're not something you can change.

And this is the story that all of us have been told. And most of us, me included, sort of kind of believe that. Okay. And if that's true, of course you could never ever show bias against someone on the basis of his immutable characteristics, because that's wrong. It's also unchristian.

[B]

I think Tucker could make it a lot less obvious how white supremacist he was if you just cut out the asides he makes. Like that one. All civil rights legislation protects him as well as all the groups he hates. You can't deny someone a job because they're white or because they're straight. In the same way, you can't do that if someone is black or gay. Yeah, Tucker wants to pretend that white people aren't a protected class as it relates to civil rights because to him, the protection of other groups rights comes at the expense of his group's monopoly on power. Tucker doesn't feel like all groups deserve the same protections under the law. He feels like his group is entitled to everything and any move away from that is an undermining of his rights. It's fine that he feels that way. I mean, most bigots do. But we as a society need to move past the point where we take that kind of shit seriously. This isn't a political perspective. It's something Tucker should be working on in therapy. Also, I'm pretty certain that if science were scientists were ever able to find a gay gene and definitively show that sexuality is something you're born with, Tucker wouldn't all of a sudden start liking gay people because it's the Christian thing to do. The fuck is he talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ridiculous.

[A]

It's absurd. It's like the conversation itself is such an illusion that keeps you from dealing with the central problem. You know, like in. In Japan, there's a serious issue with blood types. There's a lot of prejudice around blood type. And that's absurd. You know that where you put your flesh tube. Absurd. All of these things are absurd. And yet somehow they capture. They capture the minds of millions of people. It's crazy. People are insane.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. And I think that there is a, you know, there's a. There's a tendency towards like making it better and making it worse. And it's those kinds of weird things that human brains do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where you separate people based on these arbitrary things and, you know, you get hung up on it. Yeah, I understand that. People do that. And it's a part of culture and we need to work.

[A]

We got a lot of shit to deal with.

[B]

It's fascinating to me that people like Tucker, who's like, your primary function is to make that worse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You are trying to make everyone more caught in those arbitrary distinctions between. Between each other.

[A]

Yeah, it is. It is the feeling of like, these people are absolute predators. This is a person who is literally tricking people to hate other people so they could exploit those people for money. Like, I don't know how obvious it could get.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy. So speaking of obvious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

2028 is going to be another election, right? Fuck.

[A]

I mean, is it?

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

And it's obvious that Pete Buttigieg is going to be the Democrat candidate.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

I don't know. Apparently early polls have shown that he is a front runner. And then even higher than him is. I don't know, is anybody?

[A]

Anybody? No.

[B]

There's a bunch of candidates who have a certain amount of, you know, and then.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

Way ahead of all of them is. I don't know.

[A]

You guys are a disappointment. Is the number one vote.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. He's a leading candidate, but also he's gay. Or is he. He dated women. Is he gay?

[C]

No one has put this in clearer terms than the former mayor of South Bend, Indiana, the former transportation secretary, and as of today, the leading candidate for the Democratic nomination in 2028, Mr. Pete Buttigieg. Here he is.

[D]

I can tell you that if me being gay was a choice, it was a choice that was made far, far.

[B]

Above my pay grade.

[A]

And that's the thing.

[B]

I wish the Mike Pence's of the.

[D]

World would understand that if you got.

[A]

A problem with who I am. Your problem is not with me.

[B]

Your quarrel, sir, is with my creator.

[A]

Take it up with God.

[C]

He made me this way. Notice the self seriousness, the sort of JFK esque gaze into the distance. Your quarrel, sir, is with my creator. Drama queen.

[A]

Yeah, maybe.

[C]

Okay, but that doesn't really answer the question. Why was Pete butted just chicks for the first part of his adult life? He's dating women. Yeah, a bunch of women. He was openly heterosexual, including in the US military after the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

[B]

Oh, what?

[C]

Legal to be gay in the military. But Pete was still heterosexual.

So the answer I think most people come to is, well, he was just ashamed of being gay. Like he couldn't be his true self. He couldn't kind of let it out. Maybe that's true though. Those of us who were living in the United States ten years ago remember that there was no sanction against being gay. Tons of gay televisions filled with gay people. Those of us who worked in television around gay people, great gay people actually. Just being clear, really nice, good people all day long. There's nothing weird about being gay. 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

[A]

Don't go any further back. Only 10 years ago. Do not go further back.

[C]

No, they were actually lifestyle liberals. They're big left wingers. His parents, so probably unlikely that his parents were like, don't be gay, son.

[A]

It wasn't.

[C]

They were pure talk. It is amazing wireless service with absolutely the best prices.

[B]

Cool, cool.

So yeah, Pete's probably not gay. He's probably faking this whole thing.

Because 10 years ago it wasn't weird to be gay.

[A]

There you go. Sold me.

[B]

What the fuck is this?

[A]

What kind of insane person. Because 10 years ago you were still a prick. Yeah. Of course it was uncomfortable to Keep tipping gay 10 years ago because even if the society at large was slightly better with it than they are now, assholes like you still existed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And got a bunch of other assholes to hate.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, when gay marriage was passed in the Supreme Court, you know, that was fairly modern history and people were furious about that.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So there's a lot of backlash towards that. There's a lot of reasons. There's still hate crime times that happen quite regularly. Everybody has their own constellation of personal things too. Various family members, various friends.

[A]

10 years ago is such a great number. 10 years ago is such a great number because it's like 15 years ago, motherfucking Obama was against gay people getting married. Like that's how fucking crazy people are.

[B]

Well, like 10 years ago was like the Unite the Right rally.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I don't know if it was a great time.

[A]

That's fair. That's fair. I'm just saying. I'm just saying from the perspective of a person who's like, hey, the people who don't want to hate gay people were slightly cooler with it back then. And that was a fucking Obama, you know, like fucking, hey, buddy. Jesus Christ.

[B]

So look, Pete, I think he might not be gay. Maybe he's not. Maybe he is. I don't know. Who knows?

[A]

Fine, fine, fine, fine.

[B]

But even if he's not, that is all who he is, you know? That's just all he is.

[A]

That's a great way to talk about somebody.

[C]

Isn't just this thing about Pete Buttigieg. It's the whole point of Pete Buttigieg. It is the reason that he has the plurality of support from Democratic primary voters who are not black.

His support among black voters, they're more in the why are you gay? Camp. They're not impressed at all. In fact, I'm trying to do the math here. I think his support. Pete Buttigieg's current support among African American Democratic primary voters is, let's see, around zero. So zero percent in that range, meaning nobody. Like, no black people. They're not going for it. Why are you gay? You can almost hear them saying that.

[B]

Yeah. You almost can't. Or you can't. You can't.

[C]

You can.

[A]

You cannot. You actually can't. You can't hear them say that.

[B]

For someone like Tucker, the fact that Pete Buttigieg is a gay man is the totality of his identity. Tucker sees Pete and he just sees a gay guy. That's his whole thing.

What else is there to you? I already know what you're all about.

[A]

You got it.

[B]

And that's kind of weird.

[A]

I mean, it is the person. And not. Believe me, these are not similar in terms of how they work. But they are in an idea. Right. Like when Jackie Robinson is playing baseball, people are going, oh, he's still just the black guy who plays baseball. Right. He was fucking amazing at baseball. Baseball.

[B]

He's playing baseball.

[A]

Exactly. But that. Well, because he's there and everybody else is white, There's. Oh, they just want a black guy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They tokenize somebody who is proving excellence as another way of taking away, like, any quality of individuality you have.

[B]

Yeah. Any competence. Any excellence.

[A]

Yep. They just remove it. Because if it's not a detriment to you, then it's going to remove anything that you can do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And while I was listening to this and going through it, I started to realize, like, you know what I mean? Obviously this is a really deeply anti gay pivot that Tucker's engaged in here. And it's interesting that a bit of it is about Pete Buttigieg. And it made me realize, like, this might be preemptive ground laying in case Pete is the character.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure.

[B]

Let's get everyone really mad at gay people so we can.

[A]

Before we even begin. And let's make sure half the country hates him and thinks that Harvey Milkwood should be relitigated.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think that's kind of part of the strategy.

[A]

Gotcha.

[C]

But among white liberals, Pete Buttigieg's gayness, the fact he's married to a dude called Chasen and has somehow acquired babies. Somehow. How do you get babies? Just sort of buy them somewhere. Whatever. He has these babies.

And.

He is the model of, whatever, a modern gay man. That's the whole point. He is a civil rights hero because of who he sleeps with. Pretty amazing. So two obvious points to make about that. First, do you remember when they used to tell us, we don't care what happens in your bedroom. Do you remember that? We want to keep politics out of the bedroom. We want to keep politicians out of your bedroom. This was a way to justify the holocaust of abortion, of course, but the line sounded kind of appealing. Yeah, politicians probably stayed in my bedroom. That seems fair. Now your bedroom is the whole point. You got politicians running on what they do in their bedroom and on the Democratic side, succeeding.

[B]

So this is some very explicit hate content. And it's pretty shocking that we just live in a world where Tucker Carlson puts this kind of shit out. He's trying to suggest that Pete Buttigieg somehow acquired his children in a suspicious way. He and his husband adopted their children. Tucker fucking knows this.

[A]

This is absurd. Get the fuck outta here.

[B]

The point about politicians staying out of our bedrooms is a good thing to think about. In the past, this was a saying that was about getting rid of laws that made it illegal to be gay. Whatever two adults wanted to do in their bedroom wasn't the government's business. But Tucker wants the government in your bedroom. He's glorifying the Ugandan anti gay act, which is explicitly the government being in your bedroom. He's trying to conflate politicians telling you what you can and can't do in your bedroom with a politician being openly gay. Pete Buttigieg being openly gay does not impact my freedoms at all and has absolutely no effect on what goes on in my bedroom. The idea that some people might like him because he's the first openly gay cabinet member in US history has no impact on what goes on in anyone's bedroom. On the flip side, legislation like the law in Uganda has a huge impact on bedrooms. What happens in your bedroom could get you life in prison. Tucker very much wants the government to be in the bedroom. And I think he should just own up to that. Like, just cut the shit and be yourself.

[A]

I mean, that. That fucking civil rights line is such an encapsulation of that trap. It's just a perfect trap. Is like, he's a civil rights hero just because he's gay. He's like. Like you're the one who's removing rights civilly from gay people. You're the one making gayness a civil rights issue that he is then part of because of you. You're creating it. It's not real. It's not real. You're making it up whole cloth.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

And I think that on some level, Tucker has to understand that.

[A]

Of course. That's why he's laughing like a prick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, this is. This is insane.

[B]

So anyway, you know, it would be.

[A]

Insane any number of more things if.

[B]

Pete was just faking being gay.

[A]

That actually would be kind of insane.

[B]

That would be nuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There are a lot of rewards in store for someone in the Democratic Party. An ambitious politician, someone who really only cares about the goal, which in Pete Buttigieg's case has always been becoming president. Is it bad to come out of the closet and announce that you're gay? No, no, no. That's like the only way you're going to get to the White House. That's the only way. That's your ticket, being gay.

[B]

Huh?

[C]

So given that that's obviously true, and given that this guy dated girls as an adult, it's totally fair to ask the question, why are you gay? Like, what is this? Starting to think that maybe it's not genetic or entirely genetic. And if it is, show me the gene. We've decoded the human genome. We can tell you where the gene for eye color comes from. Where's the gay gene? Maybe there is a gay gene. By the way, lots of things we haven't decoded yet. Maybe it's there.

Are you looking for it? Are you trying to answer this question?

[B]

No.

[C]

The whole game is to make you be quiet ashamed because it has something to do with sex. And what are you, a creep focused on Sex. You're obsessed with gay sex.

[B]

Here we go. So maybe Pete is faking being gay to get ahead in the Democratic Party. In fact, maybe everyone isn't really gay.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Maybe this is all a globalist plot.

[A]

Could be a lie.

[B]

And to be clear, Tucker is very much a creep, and he's very much obsessed with gay sex. Yep. People who are in favor of human rights, which apply to gay people generally, aren't that interested in the sex side of things. Your sexual habits don't dictate what rights you're entitled to. And being gay isn't just something that's defined by a particular sex act. The thing that really sticks out to me about this, beyond the explicit hate, is how dumb this all sounds. I feel like Tucker comes off like a guy who should have been part of a panel on Donahue when I was a kid, not a thinker and one of the biggest talk show hosts in the world. He's very lucky that media has completely collapsed as a professional industry, because this low effort bullshit wouldn't have flown in a competitive industry. This is trash.

[A]

Yeah, Absolutely. Jerry Springer evolved in the 90s past this.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Like, this was Jerry's. Like, yeah, man, of course you can be gay. Fuck yeah. Fuck whoever you want. I don't give a shit. This is pre. This is ridiculous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is absurd.

[B]

And Jerry Springer evolved past, like, stage one. Anger bait.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, you get creative with the fake shows that they put on.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

This is. This is pretty simple stuff.

[A]

It's ridiculous.

[B]

So, you know, the gays. There's all in Tucker's face. They won't leave him alone.

[A]

Yes, they will.

[B]

They could.

[A]

They delighted it.

[C]

And since, apart from moral concerns or the concerns of human happiness, does this actually make you happy? And what does it mean to live as a gay person in the United States? What exactly does that look like? Like, what's your life like? How many people do you have sex with? How are those unfair questions? Since you're the one throwing it in my face and telling me I'm not allowed to be against it, maybe I'm allowed to ask the questions I don't really want to ask, don't really want to know the answers to. But since you've made it the north star of our moral system in the United States, since you're willing to starve an African country because they disagree with it, maybe it's time for me to ask those questions because you push me to on this and a lot of other issues. If you just back off a little bit. We could just return to the status quo of, say, 1985, where, yeah, they're gay people. I'm sorry, you know, whatever, stonewall, but they're not pushing gay sex on my kids in school.

[B]

The question Tucker comes up with when he's, like, thinking of the hard questions that he's being pushed to ask is, how many people are you having sex with? That's a little telling. Tucker is obsessed with the sex part of this, and it really shows he's uncomfortable living in a world where homosexuality is normal, and it makes him really mad. He has to come up with this entire framework of how the gays are shoving it all in his face and trying to make his kids gay at school to justify why he's the good guy and how him resorting to very old homophobic bullshit is actually him asking important questions that everyone's so afraid to ask. It's so funny, too, that Tucker wants to go back to 1985.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

There may be a lot more acceptance of LGBTQ folks now, and there are certain legal protections that have been recognized, but all in all, I think pop culture was way more gay in 1985 than it is today. Two of the top three songs on Billboard 100 for the year were by Wham, and the other one was Madonna.

[A]

But they didn't know he was gay back then.

[B]

Careless Whisper.

[A]

They didn't know that's what people believed. They were fucking insane.

[B]

If Tucker's real problem was that he's having gay stuff shoved in his face all the time now, that would not be solved by retreating to the 80s. However, if his problem is that there aren't enough sodomy laws on the books these days and you can't discriminate in workplaces and housing, then maybe going back to 85 would be up his alley. I think that's really what he wants to do.

[A]

I mean, to bring it back to fucking Wham. George Michael got caught in a. In a fucking park, and everybody went apeshit. And it's like he could have just talked to a guy if we lived in a rational country instead of having to, like, touch people's hands in a park.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

Two out of the top three songs on Billboard were Wham.

[A]

Man, they didn't. People are just.

[B]

You forget about that. Wham Was huge. That one album was colossal.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, Careless Whisper echoes.

[B]

Throughout history and Wake Me up before youe Go. Go.

[A]

Sure. But that one, that's not gonna last as long.

[B]

That was number three on the charts.

[A]

No, no, no. I mean, As a song, Careless Whisper. There's a lot of real heart.

[B]

It's just the sex.

[A]

Wake me up before you go to.

[B]

It's the sex. You're just a sucker for the sex.

[A]

I am a sucker for the sex. That's definitely true.

[B]

So Tucker is like he's being forced into this situation because people won't let him be anti gay. So now he has to be the guy who's mad that no one will let him be anti gay when he could just be anti gay if he wanted to be in a hole. So he's being forced into this position where he just doesn't want to ask these questions, but he must.

[A]

Oh, he's our hero.

[B]

And in order to do this, he wants to have a non hysterical, non hateful conversation. So of course you call in Milo Yiannopoulos.

[A]

Of course.

[C]

Uganda made this crime punishable by death. You made their law punishable by famine. So who's more serious about it? You are. Since you did all of that, how about we just slowly, in a non hysterical, obviously non hateful way.

Ask, what are we looking at? Why are you gay? Why is that a good thing? What is it exactly? And there are a lot of people we could ask about this, but we thought, believe it or not, the most articulate person we know to answer these questions is Milo Yiannopoulos, who was very famous today because we hate gay. What was he called? Conservative provocateur. Running around the country making the case against liberals as an open, in fact, flamboyant gay man. And that was part of the shtick, right? It's like, we've got a gay guy too. What are you gonna say now? You know, we've got black conservatives too. Can't call us racist. We've got a gay conservative. You can't call us homophobes.

[B]

So this all makes sense. Tucker wants to have a serious non hysterical, non hateful conversation about the real hard questions about being gay. So of course he gets Milo, one of the most level headed, calm, not hateful people around.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Slam dunk.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Tucker also painfully gave up the whole right wing game there too, where he very clearly admitted that the whole point of boosting Milo in the past was because that he was a token gay man could use to deflect criticism of their ideology. Being very anti gay.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

The right wing dipshits were also excited to use Milo as a prop. But then a couple years later, he decided he wasn't gay after all. It would be like if Tucker's token black conservative, that he used back in the day turned out to be C. Thomas Howell in Soul Man. Yeah, like it's, it's your, your token gay guy wasn't even gay, turns out.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Anyway, this is a pathetic attempt on Tucker's part to make a very not serious conversation seem like it's very serious. He's just getting ready to do a gay bashing interview with a washed up instigator who can't really get people mad anymore. So hurrah.

[A]

Yeah. Yep, I, I brought some. I brought some bones to pick the corpse of. That's what I have chosen to do.

[B]

Now, before we get into this, some of you Tucker Carlson listeners out there, some of you in Tucker Nation, you might have heard that Milo got canceled for saying some iffy things.

[A]

Do you mean the pedophile stuff?

[B]

Now, it's not that big a deal.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

And so Milo was unleashed on the world.

[A]

And then because they act like it's.

[C]

Big, literally one day he was canceled, really destroyed as a person.

In a sort of non scandal that.

Like so many of that period and of this period, sort of took him right off the stage. You never heard from him again. But during the period when he was floating around America on his Dangerous Faggot tour, spreading whatever it was, libertarian economics or something to the kids, it became obvious that this guy was actually really smart.

[A]

Did it.

[C]

Even for those of us who were never that interested in the dangerous faggot part of it, if you listen, you thought, well, this guy's not dumb at all. He's actually very thoughtful.

Very thoughtful, high IQ guy who thinks about things. So over the last couple of years, during text conversations, I became aware that Milo had decided that he didn't want to be gay anymore. I thought, that's kind of interesting. I didn't know you could decide you didn't want to be gay. And then you read about it and turns out there's a whole industry movement and laws designed to prevent you from deciding not to be gay.

[A]

Huh.

[C]

Parts of the United States have banned conversion therapy, so you're not allowed to talk to a psychiatrist about not having same sex attraction.

[A]

Is that what you're not allowed to do?

[C]

What is that? Is it like once you're in, you can't get out? It's like mandatory gayness. What the hell are we looking at?

[B]

Tucker really downplayed the stuff Milo said to get himself canceled. Feels like if anybody Tucker didn't like said that kind of stuff, it would be super important.

[A]

Probably the most important thing about that person for as Long as the rest of their life.

[B]

Oh, well, yeah. I'm almost impressed by the way that Tucker is trying to present the question around conversion therapy. The government wants to pass laws to make it so you can't stop being gay. All of these people want to not be gay, and the conversion therapy people are willing to help, but the government doesn't want them to not be gay. This is obviously stupid shit, but it's important to understand that adults can make whatever health choices they want for themselves. If an adult wants to go to conversion therapy kind of thing and see if torture will change their sexual orientation, then that's their choice. It may not do anything and the people running it are probably scammers, but whatever, they're adults. They have the right to do that. This whole conversation is mostly around children whose parents make their medical decisions for them.

[A]

Them.

[B]

A gay child could have parents that are super against their child being gay who make the decision to send them to a conversion therapy place against their will. And that's a huge problem. Cornell University recently released a Meta analysis of 47 papers involving conversion therapy, gauging its effectiveness and potential danger. Of them, 34 stayed neutral, while 12 found that conversion therapy was ineffective and linked to increased depression, suicidality, increased social isolation, and difficulty forming intimate bonds. Only one study claimed that it was effective. And that study was done with all highly religious participants and even says that its findings, quote, cannot be generalized beyond the present sample.

[A]

How about that?

[B]

No one really has a problem with a gay adult who isn't happy with their sexuality, exploring whether they would be happier if they were straight. I think most people would expect that. It's, you know, I don't know if that's gonna work. Maybe their energies could be better directed at figuring out what they're unhappy about. But no one's interested in forcing gay people to stay gay. We are, however, very opposed to allowing homophobic parents to send their kids off to be tortured, which is what Tucker wants.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, whenever you just have an abuse factory, I, I suppose people who like to manufacture abuse are real mad that you don't allow them to make abuse anymore. It's wild, you know, like we, if we want to make abuse, we gotta have these k to abuse, man.

[B]

It's, I think, I think that there's a very, very fucked up angle that Tucker is embarking down with this like super support of conversion therapy and the.

[A]

Amount of stuff that is re. Fucking.

Rewritten. Kidnapping, that's all. That's half of the stuff that is going on right now they just want kidnapping if you're an immigrant. Kidnapped if you're. That you need to be in constant fear that your entire life will suddenly be removed from you. That way you won't get together and force us to tax rich people.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, at any point, you could be sent to the place where you're fixed, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

We'll send you to the place that'll make you not gay anymore. We'll send you to the place that. Where we put the immigrants.

[A]

We don't call it conversion therapy because it's a therapy for conversion. It's because re education camp. Sounds real bad.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Sounds real bad.

[B]

Re education camp.

[A]

Right. Like we torture you like in the Vietnam.

[B]

Yeah. So I apologized at the beginning of this episode and I'm going to apologize again because we're about to get into the Milo.

[A]

Get a lot of. Get a lot of f. Slurs.

[B]

But I am convinced that if you are ever going to get those superpowers, it has to be Milo and Tucker talking. That has to be the most annoying fucking thing that you have ever heard.

[C]

The.

[A]

The frequency range is clearly created purely to torture me.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, I'm hoping for claws. Yep. Hoping you don't go nuclear.

[A]

Any number of things. Maybe I'll just get another foot. I'll take a third foot.

[B]

I'd be excited. Sure. So here we go.

[C]

You're really nice to do this. I'm glad you came. I want to begin with the only.

[D]

Person that have me on. I'm joking.

[B]

I'm joking.

[C]

No, I'm actually really interested. I'm interested in this topic. Topic. I've never been interested in it, but I want to begin by asking you.

[D]

Icky, isn't it? It's icky.

[C]

Well, sort of impersonal, but, you know, it's occurred to me, particularly when I have interviewed Republican politicians, particularly neocons over the years.

[D]

Sexuality comes to my.

[C]

I've always wanted to say in a Ugandan accent, are you gay?

[D]

Why are you gay?

[C]

So let me ask, are you gay? Were you gay? Like, what is gay?

[D]

Nobody's gay. Nobody's gay. After that clip, which is the best thing on the Internet, he changes the question, the interrogative to a declarative. He says, why are you gay? And she starts, you know, it starts talking. He says, you are gay.

It becomes a statement. And this is where he goes. This is where he loses me. Because.

Nobody is gay.

[B]

Wow. What a thesis. No one is gay.

[A]

I mean, the first thing, if you start with that My first response is, jesus Christ, go back to school. Go back to fucking college. Get the fuck out of here.

[B]

Or, like, is public life for you, right?

[A]

Like, what are we doing?

[C]

Do.

[B]

Is this. Is this good? Is this healthy?

[A]

Or Everybody's gay. Fuck off. Fuck off. You understand that we're talking about a fictional conversation, that you're just choosing to make up some bullshit on your own as a way of distracting from the fact that you don't want to engage with the reality of the situation, which is that that man wants you dead. Mm. But fine.

[B]

And he's still like that. The political movement that Tucker represents does not care that you are now straight.

[A]

No, no, absolutely.

[B]

They do not care.

[A]

They remember. They remember you're gay enough. Yes.

[C]

Do you think.

[A]

Do you think being in an interracial relationship is gonna be fine later on? No, no, they remember and they'll remember if you're not in that interracial relationship. And it won't matter.

[B]

Yeah. So Milo tries to explain here that it's not a sexuality. The gay doesn't exist.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

In almost every case and in certainly in every male case, it is a trauma response. It is not a sexuality. It is not part of what you are or who you are or a component of your personality or a function of your. It is a set of behaviors.

That emerges in people with a number of very easily identifiable common etiologies. One of them is. So, for instance, among gay. Excuse me, among black and Jewish Americans, they report statistically significantly higher rates of homosexuality. Why could that be overbearing moms and absent dads? Or in the Jewish case, nebbish fathers and, you know, like Jewish. My Jewish friends, I always call. Their marriages are like lion taming, you know, where you have a sort of nebbish, scholarly, bookish dad and a larger than life mom who, you know, once one day decides she's going to be a rabbi. You know.

That. Or in the black community, of course, just the fatherlessness. And it's. Why. Why if we're born this way, if you don't have some other better explanation, could it be the case that there are more gays among black and Jewish populations where something's going on here? Why are we getting more trans and more gays and then less gays and less. Why? Because this is, in fact, a symptom. In fact, this is a product of something. It's the result of something.

[C]

Well, this was Freud's position, which was kind of conventional wisdom for the better part of a hundred years, that this was a response to the environment, and particularly to the relationship with the mother that a young boy has and relationship with his father. I mean, this was. This was like, people just assumed that was true when I was a kid. They were not gay haters or homophobes. That just. That was a state of knowledge on the subject.

[D]

One of the. One of the only things Freud got.

[B]

Right was that, oh, man, so convenient that the guy who was wrong about everything happens to be right about the one thing you agree with him about. No need to explore that phenomenon. Right. So Milo's just wrong about stats. There aren't higher levels of homosexuality in black and Jewish men, but he's a Jewish guy, and he was married to a black man. So I can't help but feel like a lot of this is personal. When he's talking about the Jewish guy who has an overbearing mom, it's not subtle that it feels like he's talking about himself. And that's where things can get really messy for me and this interview. I do not believe that abuse and trauma necessarily can change your sexuality, but I do believe that it can mess you up a bit and make things unclear. If your primary definition for what a gay person is is just guy who has sex with a guy, then that's gonna include a bunch of people who aren't gay. Some of them are heterosexuals experimenting. Some are bi. Some are people who have suffered trauma and are acting out. But most of them are gonna be gay. What Milo is trying to do is invalidate the existence of gay people by cherry picking an example of someone who suffered some trauma which led to them having sex with men. That person who happens to be Milo, did all the things you expect a gay person to do, but they aren't gay, therefore no one is. I'm perfectly willing to accept Milo at his word that he's not gay anymore. I truly don't care. But I do take issue with someone trying to very obviously project their own battle onto everyone else. All of the gay people in the world aren't wrong about being gay. Milo was. Yeah. This is a personal thing that is not universalizable, and that's the trap that he falls into over and over and over again.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hate going back to it, but I have such a hard time. Not like people should. It should be a matter of mild interest, you know, like, oh, that makes blood rush to your genital region.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

How about that? That's it. That's as. That's as complicated as it is. Right. Like, that's none of my business.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Interesting. But I'm gonna get out of here. Doesn't matter.

[B]

Yeah, right. Sure.

[A]

It's wild.

[B]

Yeah. I think that.

I'm fascinated by how angry it can make.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So this next clip is Milo making a statement about the United States and introducing a concept that is built on the old f slur. That explains, I think, maybe what he wants to put on a T shirt. Maybe he wants to sell a shirt with this on it.

[D]

All right, now, you see, the terminology in the medical industry has begun to change as well, because.

Now gay people are sort of saturated everywhere. You know, like when you get a. It's kind of like America. You get a whole country full of people who are very similar, but all think they're really, really individual.

[A]

That's deep.

[D]

P.S.

[C]

I do know what that looks like.

[D]

And, you know, sort of America is a very faggotized country in all kinds of ways. That's the technical term.

If you want to know the truth about homosexuality, you've got to go to black YouTube and listen to the girls.

[C]

How do you get to black YouTube, by the way?

[D]

Well, you know, it's a sort of tumbling. It's a tumbling kind of thing. You find one good video by somebody who's like, Steph Curry, you're packetized.

Sorry. And then.

And then, you know, you'll tumble through the algorithm. I'll send you some links. I'll post some links on my Twitter.

[C]

And I don't know if I dare, but that. But you're saying that's the more honest YouTube.

[D]

It's the only honest YouTube. It's the only honest anything. Because you go past the churches, and you'll see, you know, the white homo demon stealing your man.

And it's not the pastor who comes up with this stuff. It's his wife. It's his wife who's got this, you know, who was trying to set her girlfriend up with somebody. And that was all great, but he went off with a dude which is, you know, like, even. Which is sort of equidistant for them from going off with a white girl or whatever. But no, the only honest place where, you know, people would just be like.

Did it fag. It has. You know, and then they'll go. And then.

Amazing LeBron. And they'll. They'll go through it all.

[B]

I mean, so you can really see Milo turn on, like, a light switch. As soon as he was able to start talking about something that he hopes will offend people. It was a lot of that weird mid Atlantic thirst And howl ass droning. He was just droning on. But then as soon as he could start dropping f slurs and doing impressions of black YouTubers, he got a little life in him.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I think this is the real tragedy of Milo. He loves being an asshole so much. He got so rich and was able to do coke and be mean to people for a living. Sucking off the teeth of the Mercers and Steve Bannon. Those were the good old days before he got canceled for calling child abuse victims whinging selfish brats. He doesn't want to do the stuffy no one is really gay act. He wants to get out there and play, but there's no money for him to make in that anymore. He has to do this shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's sad.

[A]

I mean, and like, listening to it now, you see that it's. It is the exact same thing that led him to calling child abuse victims whinging.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's him just being an asshole. Yes. There's nothing behind it. There's no, like, oh, when I hear him called children of abuse something, it means anything. It means nothing. It is just a noise to make you go, ah. Like that. That's it. If he could get away with just going. And that's all he needed to do, that's what he would do.

[B]

Yeah. His. Essentially his. Like his professional career is just a guy who incites.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he's good at doing that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's all he really wants to do and has fun doing.

[A]

There is nothing creative. There is nothing at the end of it that you can take with you. There is no part of the human spirit that is fucking massaged into beauty by this trash.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. And I think that this path is maybe the worst option for him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, this seems like.

[A]

Or anyone in the world ever.

[B]

It hurts a lot of people. It promotes toxic, awful things that hurt other people. But I also think for him, it's so clear that there are these moments of just like this guy wanting to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm not saying that he wants to be gay or anything like that. It's just like. Like he wants to be an asshole in the same way he used to.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's what I'm here for. Yeah, it is. It is almost kind of confusing the situation that he's placed in, wherein he is where he is because of that assholery. But he's also being asked to not engage in the thing that got him there.

[B]

Yeah. You know, be serious. We need you to really help us Bash gate.

[A]

No, that. What?

[B]

No, I want to do black Twitter impressions.

[A]

Me. This is why I'm here. I wouldn't have been here if I wasn't that guy. If I had started out being like, oh, there aren't any gay people, no one would have paid attention to me.

[B]

No. And I'm only doing this kind of shit in order to make enough money so I can be an asshole.

[A]

I want to go back to that.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

What?

[A]

How do we not all understand what's happening right now?

[B]

It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. So Milo believes that gay people are just the result of trauma and that this somehow has to do with the devil being mad cause he can't have kids.

[A]

That'll happen.

[D]

So they start off with this. You know, you were born this way, honey. You are born this way, honey. You are beautiful, whatever you are. No, you're like that cause you got raped by a priest. Or you're like that because your mom was overbearing and your dad wasn't around. Or you're like that because you failed to form.

A platonic stable attachments to other men as a child for some reason. Maybe you didn't have a good male role model or whatever. But there is a relatively small number of identifiable and repeated etiologies that mark somebody out as being, you know, vulnerable to this. And you look into the histories of gay people, they'll all deny it. They say, no, that's just me. But it's not. And they know. They know because I knew and they know. And I talk to them privately when there's no cameras. They could squeeze it out of them eventually, that you get there. Yes. There's something about their sexual activity they know isn't right. And it's not just the tech in the technical sense, that the. That the sex is sterile peril, and therefore can never be part of the holy sacrament of marriage. Because it can't be co procreation with God, right? Yes. Co procreation with God. Meaning, you know, you. You make a physical body with your wife, but then God puts a soul in, right? And that's why it's the. The most precious.

[A]

When does he put that soul? Is it right away?

[D]

Later to you getting to make something with God, Right.

[C]

Is the cervix is the real reason.

[D]

That Lucifer's so mad. And because the angels can't do that.

[C]

Right.

[D]

He's so mad the angels don't get to participate in creation with our Lord that every single human being does.

[B]

This all just feels like Milo talking about himself, as if he needs to explain to the audience why he was gay for a while. This is a really dumb mission to take on because people in Tucker's audience aren't going to believe that he's straight all of a sudden and are always going to think of him as gay. Meanwhile, the people who hated Milo were fine with his sexuality. They just hated his politics and how much of an asshole he was. He still has the same politics and he's still an asshole. So that group isn't gonna like him any more or less now. There's nothing to gain or lose here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, I'm glad we're having a non hysterical conversation about homosexuality where we are arguing that Lucifer is mad because angels can't have babies and that's why gay sex isn't fun.

[A]

I like that one.

[B]

Cool, man.

[A]

I like that comic book version of Christianity where it's like, oh, well, everybody knows that the angels are bummed out all the time because they don't get to fuck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, is that in the Bible?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Where.

[A]

Where what? Which parable was Jesus? Like, dude, you guys don't even know. All my buds up there, they want to fuck all the time. All the time.

[B]

Well, they do. And it's unsatisfied.

[D]

Right.

[A]

And that's why.

[B]

Part of the union.

[A]

Reality makes sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, you know, I think that this. A lot of the stuff that he's saying in there is clearly just like his own feelings.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Like. Like, I knew that what I was doing was wrong.

[A]

Thinly veiled.

[B]

Yeah. You can't universalize this as easily as you want to. Milo, if you.

[A]

It is. It is the rule of projection that if you start projecting something that seems reasonable, the longer you go on, the more likely you are to just be talking about you.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So Milo has one thing in common with me, and that is that he has a cat. And he talks about how that makes him want to be a dad.

[C]

Great.

[D]

This is gonna sound completely pathetic, but I, like, don't be a dad.

Some kind of pathetic simulacrum of it. Now I've become a cat dad just in the terms of, like, caring for something helpless.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And it's bringing out of me something that I know is gonna lead to a cat is helpless because I'm responsible for this being that loves and laughs and they do, you know, and you know, and requires regular, not just maintenance, but affection and to be tended to and loved. Like, I love dogs. I'm like, I used to be more of a dog guy. But I live in a. I live in a house on the National Register of Historic Places, so I can't have dogs. And so I just. I got a cat one day, you know, just because. Just because somebody found it in an engine. I was like, I'm so alone. So I said, sure, I'll. Give me the. Give me, give me. Give me the damn kitten. And at that point, I wasn't sure I was going to drown it, wear it, or nurture it, but. But I was just like, oh, okay. And being responsible for shaping the personality, which anybody who has animals, who loves animals, knows that is 100% real. Responsible for shaping the personality, nurturing that, being into either being a parent itself or just into being a companion or to being the best that it can be. Right.

It's bringing something out in me, you know, that wasn't present when I was having a lot of what most people would regard as. Well, what homosexuals would regard as very desirable kind of sex, you know, with a particular kind of person or whatever.

[B]

If I understand that clip correctly, Milo is saying that having a cat has made him want to be a dad. And those aren't feelings that he ever got from having sex with men. Awesome. I don't know why this is a conversation that makes sense or needs to happen.

[A]

I mean, yes, there are stars out skied, and so I am hungry on Tuesdays. It makes sense. Sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool. Yeah.

[B]

Also, as a guy with a cat, I take issue with him saying that cats are helpless.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've never once thought Celine was helpless and that she'd be without me. It seems like a very narcissistic way to look at having a pet, especially one with claws. She'd be fine.

[A]

I mean, I. My dogs would be without me. That's definitely true.

[B]

Yeah. But that's because of the breeding.

[A]

Yeah, that's because they've.

[B]

They're helpless.

[A]

That's because human beings have spent several, what, tens of thousands of years breeding animals into such that they can't survive on their own without me.

[B]

Yeah, but Celine's a street cat.

[A]

Does.

[B]

Okay, so she's like Heathcliff.

[C]

How does.

[A]

Loose. So, okay, so here's my problem with somebody bringing up Lucifer's feelings on something. Right now I need to know how many feelings on how many things he has. Right. So Lucifer's jealous of us because gay people.

[B]

Can create life. Sure. With God.

[A]

Sounds good. And so gay people can't have fun. That's fine. That makes sense. But now, how does Lucifer feel about having a cat? Can Lucifer have a Cat? Is he jealous about having a cat? Does Lucifer feel like having a cat is wrong? Does Lucifer feel like cats shouldn't be pets? Does Lucifer feel like cats? Domesticated human beings. And so he admires them even more?

[B]

I would think. Now, I'm just. I'm just spitballing here. I would think that Satan can't have a pet.

[A]

Okay, well, all right.

[B]

What about, like, Cerberus?

[A]

I mean, well, hey, listen, the rules. All bets are off since. Now, I know angels are trying to fuck all the time, but because gay people exist, they're sad. No, whatever.

[B]

No, no, you misunderstand. Because heterosexual people exist and have children with the union of God.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That makes the angels. No, the angels are totally fine with it. It was just Lucifer who was bent out of shape about it. And that's why he made everyone gay. Now, listen.

[A]

Yes, this makes sense.

[B]

I think that one of the things I would imagine about Satan is that he's not capable of forming good attachments.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think that bonds are tough with him. Like a good friend.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Something like. So I think the relationship between pet and person, I don't think Lucifer could handle it. I think that.

The cat would die.

[A]

Yeah, I know, but I mean, I feel like he's got a better chance of emotionally connecting because it's something he can't make a deal with. With. You know, like, there's no situation where you go to Georgia and the devil's got, like, a thing for the cat to sign. He can't make a deal with the cat. What?

[B]

Yes, they can.

[A]

What is the cat gonna get? It can't play the violin, Dan.

[B]

If it. If it gets possessed by a demon, it can.

[A]

All right, well, I. I mean, I would watch a cat play the violin.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And I would assume he was possessed by the devil.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

So Milo, he is. He expounds on his theory a little bit that gayness is just a trauma kind of thing.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

Great. And now it's also just an addiction.

[D]

You get to the heart of it if you're sort of one on one with the gay. But they will. They won't just talk about the emptiness of their life or the fact that the sex is sterile or whatever. They will know that there's something not quite right and so.

[C]

And that its origin is there at something that was not quite right.

[D]

Have you ever been addicted to anything?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Big time.

[D]

So, you know, there's that moment when your mind is flooded and it's all you can think about. Yes. And it's all that you can.

You gotta get it out. Because if you don't do a line or have a smoke or do something.

If you don't get it out, it's just gonna be all you can think about for rest of the day. It's just driving you crazy because it floods your mind. Yeah. I've been addicted to one or two little things.

And I realized my sex works the same way.

[C]

I believe that.

[D]

Realized that when I was on a plane. I'm sitting down, hey, team 1A. I'm sitting on the plane. I'm like, yeah, I have a gin and tonic, girl.

[A]

And then there's too many snakes.

[D]

Basketball player. Well, not basketball player or gay nerds, but, like, a football player would sit next to me. Like, it would take hold of me. There were times I had to, like, go to the bathroom and, like, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Because I. Because I had to get rid of it because it was. It was taking hold of my mind.

[C]

It sounds like a demon.

[D]

Yeah. Because it's what it is.

[B]

If Milo just wanted to say that for him, sex was a compulsion that he felt like he couldn't control, no one would have any problem with that. I fully believe that he was a dude who was out of control, and how he engaged with sex was probably unhealthy. Totally. That's all good, but it doesn't mean that all gay people are like that.

[A]

Do you know what. Do you know how many dudes at a young age are kind of out of control and unsure of their sexuality and kind of acting out about it? All of them.

[B]

Yeah. Quite a few.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But this is a common theme in this interview, and I think in Milo's life, where he takes something that applies to himself and his story, and instead of dealing with his feelings about it in a healthy way, he just accuses all gay people of being like him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this projection is just very, very.

Weird.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

It's pretty transparent.

[A]

I wonder if it's even. Okay. So I wonder if it's even possible for him to actually engage with what it is he's doing. Right. Like, regardless of whether or not he truly believes or doesn't believe any of this stuff, he is in an environment that has reinforced over and over and over again that his entire existence is wrong and to have crime against God. Right. And he's played into that in order to get the advantage that he wants out of the. That even though probably he believes that, he knows it's not the case. Right. Or. Right.

[B]

Or conversely, he does believe that about Himself.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

He believes that he deserves to go to hell and he's evil and bad.

[A]

Right. But still, then all of that comes back to he's playing into this guy's hands to make other people feel the same way about him. And can he actually honestly engage with the concept of like. Like his abuse is being used as a. As an amplifying device to hurt other people?

[B]

No, I don't think that he. Well, I do think it's possible that he could get that, but I don't think that he could without leaving public life.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

I don't think that Milo Yiannopoulos, as a public figure, could ever deal with wrestling with that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think it's really, really hard.

[A]

Right. I think that's the existential question for him, is if. If I do this, I have to quit. Right. So I am willing to do anything. Anything. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I just. You should quit.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So he. He talks about how sex and cocaine are the same.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

I realized that I don't do cocaine anymore, but I. You know, it'll shock people to learn I used to be a bit of a cokehead. You know, when I was. I. You know that rush of dopamine. Yep. The rituals associated with it as well. You know, I was like, oh, my God. That's. That's how I feel about sex. And that's. That can't be right. It can't be right.

[C]

No, it's a. It's literally a. I'm not just talking about gay sex, but any. That is literally a perversion. Yes.

[D]

Of what It's. And it is a demon. And it's also other things, too, because these things go hand in hand, you know.

[C]

May I ask how. In your own. If it's not too personal, how did you wind up.

[B]

I think we're there now, aren't we?

[C]

Well, yeah, I think we are.

[D]

No, but I just told you I wanked on UA1726.

Crack one out in the bathroom. People are never gonna sit next to me on planes again. I think we're good.

[B]

So this has nothing to do with Milo being gay or not?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

He could have been compulsively having sex with women, and it would have been the same problem. Pretending this has anything to do with being gay or projecting this onto all gay people is really weird and definitely a motivated strategy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's stupid.

[A]

Stupid. Yeah. I. I don't know. I don't know how.

[C]

Maybe.

[A]

Maybe it's because I. I just have talked to too many people, honestly. But it feels like everybody's brain is like constantly firing with weird. And sometimes you, you catch a stray and you're like, oh, my God, why is my brain doing that? It's fine. Everybody's brain is doing that. Don't feel shame about it. Maybe don't tell everybody about it, but, you know, it's fine.

[B]

Yeah, you're fine. Yeah. Your brain is a complicated piece of machinery.

[A]

Nobody knows how it works. Yeah, nobody does.

[B]

Some thoughts are intentional, some thoughts come out of nowhere.

[A]

And sometimes you're like, wow, was that Nobody knows. It's fine. You'll move on. Everybody will be okay with it. No one cares.

[B]

And I think that understanding that, like, yeah, it is probably true that Milo dealt with sex the same way that he did with cocaine. And there was an addictive quality to all of this. Like, yeah, that can be true.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And still doesn't mean anything about gayness writ large.

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

And it's kind of pathetic to try and do this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't make whatever you're going through easier to go through. It doesn't wash away whatever mistakes you've made in the past. It just hurts other people.

[A]

Yep. And, and it boils down something that's deeply human into just sensory response. It boils down so many different things into, if I'm a mouse in an experiment, I'm gonna press the button to get the cheese. So am I an addict? Like, that means it's meaningless.

[B]

Yeah, it's meaningless. So at the last end of that last clip, Tucker was trying to get into the, the subject of how to become gay. How was that? What happened there? And so we get to that.

[C]

You never get to ask, you know, everyone's telling you how proud they are to be gay and that's great and all that, but to sin, by the.

[D]

Way, pride is a sin.

[C]

Well, I agree with that. But.

You never get to ask, like, what, how did this, how did you start being gay? Like, it was specifically described with, you.

[D]

Know, the way I remember.

[C]

PG way. Right.

[D]

If you insist. No, the way I remember, we've done enough. I know the way I remember it is I just did it to piss off my mother. But that's not true. I think that's, that's self mythologization, you know, Like, I, I, I did, I did take a lot of drug dealers home when I was, it was, Were.

[C]

You close to your mom?

[D]

When I was in high school, she married. So, so, so I'll answer your question. I'll skip back First, Let me. Let me do that first. So my dad was in organized crime.

Funny, charismatic, brilliant. There are things about like maybe Alex Jones that remind me of him a little bit. Just in that kind of like, just in manner, you know, like a bit of a bruiser, but with the heart, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like he's a bad guy with a heart of gold.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I've known a few.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I cleave to that kind of personality. It reminds me a little bit of the good bits of my dad. Right. But there was another section which Alex does not have, which was that, you know, he was a bad guy. And I saw him do really bad things to people. I would come down. I've told this story before, but I would come down sometimes the kitchen door would be closed and I would hear, you know, nicky, Nicky, I'm giving up a life of crime. I'm turning over a new leaf. I'm not going to do anything that's going to give me any more than 18 months, you know, Funny.

[C]

But it's all about goals, Milo.

[B]

A lot of self mythologizing here. But I think it's fun that Milo associates Alex with his dad, who is involved in organized crime that he later specifies as money laundering.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I wonder if that's what he associates.

[A]

I mean, it's not even really a crime. Except for when Alex is doing it to avoid a bankruptcy court.

[B]

Come on. So, yeah, Alex is a bad dude.

[A]

I would be interested to know what qualifies as a heart of gold for these people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, what are they doing that really elevates it to you? Because I would posit that most of the people Tucker has known in his entire life have very. Not hearts of gold.

[B]

I think maybe it's like they give a good toast.

[A]

That probably sounds right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That genuinely sounds right. That's what you got to do.

[B]

Their spirit shines through while they're really drunk raising a glass.

[A]

They bought me a nice watch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Heart of gold.

[B]

So I wonder. I wonder how much Milo is embellishing his dad criminality. But he does talk about, like, seeing his dad hurt people and stuff and how that was not. Not an image that he liked.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. And so his mom got a divorce.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And a stepdad came into the picture.

[D]

But. But I saw some of it. And I think maybe somewhere in my head I was like, yeah, if that's being a man, I think I'm out. Cause I was a child. I was frightened. And then my mother left him and Married a, A new guy. And he was very like sort of a nice guy now, but, but.

He would go through all my stuff, like if I had papers, you know, if I was reading something for school or whatever, he would like, when I was out, go through every page and just sort of leave it like this. Just. It's just that I knew that he'd been in there, you know, and that kind of like invasive like, like just horrifying like, you know, it was just for a very sensitive, artistic child like me. We were already on my way then, you know, having. I had a much larger than life grandmother who was like, you know, egging this stuff on. And by this time I had had some interactions, sexual interactions with a Roman Catholic priest who's dead now, has been dead for a long time. But that had, obviously, you know, that fed into it as well.

[A]

Wait, wait, stop, stop.

[C]

That obviously fed into. Right, well, if you're being moles.

[D]

Yeah, well, yeah, also the molestation. No, but really for me, this is why it's important to do the other stuff first before you get. Oh, and I was raped by a priest, Philip D.

But, but, but, but, but this sort of psychological torture as I, as I experienced it was, you know, sort of like I had no private space anywhere and I knew that all the men in my life were just not things I wanted to become.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

And then I cast my. See if you let me get to it, then I cast my mind back to a lovely old rich man in a frock, Father Michael. And I, you know, and I, Yeah, and I. And I, who had not been like that with me.

And.

One of the things that got me into trouble 10 years ago was when I said I felt like the kind of the aggressor in that situation. I didn't know what bad stuff it had done to me. And at that time I didn't.

[C]

You.

[D]

Know, I made a couple of jokes that got GOP Inc. Hot and bothered because they're all faggots.

[A]

Boom. Got them about the.

[D]

Some of the I'm famous talking about today kind of toppling out. You know.

[B]

It sounds like Milo had a tough time growing up. And that sucks. Doesn't mean that everyone's just faking being gay as a trauma response. Though I do think that a lot of what Milo was saying that ended up getting him cancelled is stuff that involves shit he hadn't processed yet. In a lot of cases, what he was saying was something that was really about his own experience, which only became offensive when he tried to generalize it to Everyone else. So, for instance, if he had just said that he didn't feel victimized by the sexual interaction he had with that priest, a lot of people might have disagreed with him. But ultimately it's his right to feel however he wants about his life. The problem was that he expanded this to suggesting that other 13 year olds shouldn't feel victimized by the same kind of sexual interaction with adults. And that's what got him in trouble. If he'd kept it about himself, it would be fine.

[A]

It's almost like when you tell everybody else how to live their lives, they get real unhappy about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if you just live your life.

[B]

And people celebrate you. Yeah.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

Ultimately, he's doing the same thing now where the point he's making is completely fine for him to feel about his own sexuality and life experience. It just becomes stupid and offensive when he's trying to act like it's some universal truth. If he'd stop doing that, then the stuff he's saying would be mostly fine. But unfortunately, his entire career is built on making people mad by saying stuff that's not fine. So I think some of this is done on purpose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just think that there's something really fascinating about the way that this seems to be like his pattern of what he just keeps doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where there's something that's defensible or kind of like maybe on the edge.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That he could express about his own experience and instead of doing that, he universalizes it and then it becomes like.

A big shit pile.

[A]

You know, my, the, My wife likes to watch true crime documentaries. Of course. Like the world does, I suppose. But this is, this is that type of psychopath shit. Like if you go to a prison with a psychopath who's murdered like eight people, they will tell you about their entire life and what's true and what's not true. You'll never know. But yes, of course they were traumatized.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So many people were traumatized who didn't go on to become serial killers. Eventually you have to take responsibility for your own fucking shit.

[B]

No, it's true. It's true.

[A]

Like I, I'm, I'm with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But sooner or later, guess what? Other people didn't do this shit. You are hurting people.

[B]

Yeah. And the individual path that Milo went on, whether or not the trauma that he experienced as a child and through his time growing up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How much of that informed his drug abuse and sexual behaviors, all that stuff. Who knows that? Only he knows that fully.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But to pretend that his Experience unlocks like a Rosetta stone. That explains everyone's experience is fucking stupid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's. That's where we go from like, hey, I feel for you, man. I think that it sucks that you had to go through this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I hope you can work on this and get it all together to. To go fuck yourself. You are going to get tons of people hurt and killed. Yeah, It's. It's just there's a line. You draw a line somewhere. Yeah.

[A]

There's. There's that difference between somebody who is like. Like, you have to get to a place where at some point in your life in the past, you go, I could have made a different choice. Right. Because if you are the type of person who's like, no, I made every choice correctly. It's just how it is, you know? Then you get to this place where you're like, well, everybody else would have made the same choice. Nobody else could have made a different choice. There's no way to do things differently than the way I did them. And so, of course I can judge everybody else. Right. I'm the only person that matters.

[B]

Well, that's an unhealthy viewpoint.

[A]

That's not a good one. I probably wouldn't do that.

[B]

So Milo, despite all of this. Yeah, he's happy now. Not like his dumb friends.

[D]

No, I carved out a much. I have a new kind of career and a new life now that I much prefer. Just more satisfying. Lucrative.

[B]

Blah, blah, blah.

[D]

We'll do it later. So I haven't gone crazy like so many of my friends. And it's funny watching them because I see some of the. In the way that their personalities have become kind of empty and sharded and become filled with wickedness. I see some of the things that I have been working over the last 10 years to get away from that created this sexual behavior. They've become facultized.

[C]

Well, there does seem to be.

A connection, but it does. You know, the incidence of closeted homosexuality on the right is, like, overwhelming. It's like, way above what you would imagine is statistically probable.

[D]

Three straight guys on the right is like, alex, you and I have a floating wild card just in case I forgot anybody. You know.

What else is there? Maybe the Tates. But who else is that?

[C]

What is that?

[B]

It's funny that Milo says that there's three straight men on the right and he names Alex Tucker and fill in the blank. Shouldn't he say himself? That's weird, huh?

[D]

Oh, well.

[A]

Well, you know, you used to not have to say that because it wasn't true. But now that it's true but not true, you have to say it. But since it's not actually true, you forget to say it sometimes.

[B]

Right. And you want to. And you want to give a shout out to those sex trafficking brothers who are so cool.

[A]

You got to make sure that they're. You're on their good side.

[B]

Yeah. Huh.

[C]

Wild.

[B]

So, yeah, Tucker really wants to get into this idea that there's like a ton of closeted gay people on the right wing. Right. And why is that? What's the. What's going on with this?

[A]

Because everybody loves a witch hunt. Sure.

[C]

So. But what is. And I'm not attacking anybody. And I never want to out people because I don't. You know, it's not my business. Right. I've never done it. And I mean, maybe I live.

[D]

I live to out. I live to out. On which subject, Cory Booker. I left. Did you.

[C]

But what is that? Why is there. Why is it so common on the right? Well, of course on the left too, but on the right with closeted gaze, like, I don't get that.

[D]

Interesting question. I've never heard a really good answer to. I'll be honest with you.

[A]

I got one.

[D]

I suppose I should have. I got an easy one, but I don't. And I. I think. But I think if it's because you guys hate them. The exercise of power over others.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

I feel that.

[C]

I have no idea exactly why that's true, but I feel that that's true.

[D]

What's the worst thing about magic? It's not that you can turn a person into a frog or you can make yourself look more beautiful or you can. Whatever. What's the worst thing about magic is that it robs others of agency. That you can make them do things they don't want to do. The worst and most sinister bit of magic is that you can trick someone or compel someone.

[A]

Are we doing Harry Potter against their.

[D]

Will to fall in love with you or to. Or to throw themselves off a cliff kind of slavery. Yeah, exactly. The. The most frightening thing about magic is its ability to compel the wills of others.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And that's what I think homosexuals are seeking when they. Because they feel so powerless in their own lives and have this understanding that they are broken people without agency over their own sex lives, over their bodies, over that down there. Like I don't even have control over me, but I'm damn well gonna have control over you. That's, I think, a lot of it. And and so if you. If you dovetail that in with the.

[C]

You're telling the truth here. I don't fully understand what you're saying, but I. It comports with a lot of what I've seen.

[B]

That's. That's great.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

The reason there's a higher proportion of closeted gay people on the right wing is because they know that the right wing base is inherently hostile towards gay people and that they think they're living in sin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Milo's answer to why there are so many closeted gay people in the GOP is a dumb thought about magic and how it's an attempt to exert control over people because gay people don't feel like they have control over their own sexuality. Again, this is something that Milo felt, not something that's universalizable for all gay people. But even leaving that aside, his answer makes no sense. This doesn't explain why there are more closeted gay people in the right wing. Milo's answer would make sense. If Tucker was trying to figure out why there's a disproportionate number of gay people in politics, then the thought at least tracks. But as it stands, this is a non sequitur and one that's a very sad projection at the. That also, magic isn't real.

[A]

That was the thing that I kept going back to.

[B]

Yeah. The hypnotist who comes and performs at your local comedy club cannot make you into a chicken. It cannot make. You can do it around on stage.

[A]

Nope.

[D]

No.

[A]

I mean, what a. What a wild metaphor to go with. That's. That's crazy.

[B]

Let me ask you.

I thought it was that I run out of mana. Come out.

[A]

Do you know what the worst part of magic is? The decades of practice where you're alone, by yourself, over and over and over again, messing with this one card over and over and over again, alone by yourself, alone, working with this one card. That's the worst part of magic. That's what it is. And if you could get somebody else to do that for you, you fucking would.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So magic. Great.

Milo seems to think that gay people are attracted to the magic of power in the government, and that maybe that also is why they like to be Catholic priests. Because pretty much all Catholic priests are gay.

[A]

Right.

[D]

I have to say, I'm sorry to say it. I must say it. Some dimensions, in some respects, I can see that that might be something that attracts homosexuals to the Catholic Church. For instance, just the illusion of being a bishop.

[C]

I mean, Or National Review magazine, you know, which is.

[D]

You don't just save me. It's all right. I'm happy to talk about the Catholic element of it. I mean the bishops are all faggots. I mean they're all whoopsies.

[A]

Got em.

[D]

They're all whoopsies. Gays. I like that one. It contains within it a kernel of the sort of slapstick that I think we have to. One of the ways I got myself off it was imagining myself in that situation as ridiculous. Like I can't even perceive that I would do something so ridiculous. Like laughing at it became. Cause you know, I laughed as the death of arousal. Right. Totally agree. I read this. I read. Or something like that went off in the background.

[C]

Well, anyone who's ever been laughed at naked can tell you that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Well never have, but I haven't either.

[A]

I can help.

[B]

That moment is perfect. Milo thinks he's come up with something witty saying that laughter is the death of arousal. And. And Tucker comes in to top it off with a little self deprecating humor saying that anyone who's been laughed at naked can tell you that Miler responds by saying that he's never experienced that, which is still in the territory of building the joke. They're in the riff, they're in the rift zone.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Everything is going okay. And then Tucker has to reclaim his masculinity by making sure that no one thinks anyone has laughed at him naked. Yep. That completely destroys the humor of the moment that they were having and makes me way more convinced that someone's laughed at Tucker naked.

[A]

Yep, yep.

[B]

That's great. I mean that's fragile stuff right there.

[A]

It is textbook. It is textbook. Like the, the level of freedom that is available to you that you're terrified of, you know, like the level, the ability to be like, and I have a small penis.

Is not available to these people.

[B]

Well, you can do that, but then you have to be like, oh, so I'm joking.

[A]

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, like the freedom of not giving a shit. Everything is about whether or not the people around you think you're cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is not good.

[B]

And ironically, going through these behaviors in order to try and shore up your coolness makes you so uncool.

[A]

The most uncool.

[B]

I guess you're kind of playing from behind when like you have Milo yiannopoulos on in 2025. That's not very cool.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're already on a losing battle.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So this whole conversation about Closeted gay people in the GOP Sure. Is mostly about Tucker wanting to bring up Lindsey Graham. Sure. And mostly, I think, as a way to be like, oh, yeah, these gay people all want to bomb other countries and stuff.

[A]

New stereotype for me.

[B]

Yeah. And so Milo doesn't quite get the message, so he starts complaining about John McCain.

[C]

This is why you might want to bomb Iran in Venezuela.

[A]

Yeah. Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb.

[D]

What's gayer? What's gayer? I'm not saying he was a practicing homosexual. Physically, is there anything gayer than John McCain's, like, bloodlust seen through this or his proteges seen through this prism? I mean, he's even got the fat friend. It's his daughter, you know, like, he even bred the fat best friend. You know, like, is there a more ostentatious, like, fag hag in America than Meghan McCain? You know, she hates herself. She's fat, she's crazy. She's every.

[A]

Do words have meaning?

[D]

You know, can't be.

[C]

Dress.

[D]

You know, she. She's. She's.

[C]

Why? Why is that Every gay man's dream?

[D]

Because they want to visit upon their female friends the cruelty they wish that they could perform on their mothers.

[A]

What?

[B]

Whoa.

[D]

They want to make her feel fat and ugly and ridiculous because that's what their mother did to them. And there was no dad around to protect them. And their mother was just this overbearing, terrible, you know, sort of the Jungian devouring Mother. Mother.

[C]

All of this has been banned in the United States. So I don't even think people are familiar with these concepts anymore.

[D]

Right.

[A]

So, Carl Jung.

[D]

I'll try to keep it simple. Imagine, like. Imagine like a female, like, Lutheran pastor or a female Jewish rabbi, and they're this, like, you know, hey, it's great to grieve.

That's for a TV show. But one of those, right? This is horrible. Overbearing monstrousness that on some level, the homosexual knows is what's made him like this. Because, you know, dad wasn't around, so mom did it. Right. This is what. By the way, this is why trans was so popular, because it got parents off the hook. If you've got a gay kid, you know, you did something. But if your kid's born into the wrong body, well, that's not your fault. All the sympathy and, oh, all your friends are like, oh, you got a trans kid.

You raised a faggot because you're a terrible parent. You know, that's what's really going on. They want to avoid that. So instead, no I'm going to chop its ding dong off.

[B]

Keep in mind that Tucker wanted to have a non hateful and non hysterical conversation about homosexuality, which is why he called in Milo. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Milo's basically having a little breakdown on this show. While Tucker does his best to pretend it's insightful, Milo is really just complaining about things he feels about his own life and his family, and he's getting pretty angry in the process. This is a pretty embarrassing display for both of these dudes, even more so than I expected. Which is insane because. Because when I clicked Play, I knew it was Tucker and Milo, and yet it still was, like, way worse than I thought. And I felt bad for them.

[A]

Yeah, I think you really need to just live inside of it now if you want to truly understand what their bottom is. Because if you are, if you're a tourist, it's going to blow your mind every time. Every time you go visit the land of these people, you're going to come back being like, I can't believe it got worse. I can't believe it. It was two days ago that they were like, maybe we can have gay people in the Supreme Court. And now they're like, burnham, what is happening?

[B]

Somehow they made shit smell worse.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't know how they've innovated. Yeah.

[A]

They're coming up with new ways to be worse.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

It is nuts. It is nuts.

[B]

And I really don't think it's an understatement to say that, like, if you watch this as well, Milo seems like he. He's kind of not really in control of himself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He seems like he's all over the place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Tucker's laughing at some stuff, but really not giving a lot of the responses that Milo wants.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just bad. It's just he should retire.

[A]

Here's what, here's what interests me. All right? Every one of these conversations between two right wing attention seekers, attention addicts, is two people working at cross purposes, never able to complete a joke. It is fascinating to me that this ecosystem sustains itself through failure.

[B]

Well, I think maybe there's some outside investment that goes into that.

[A]

That's a good point. That's a good point.

[B]

But like, if this had to survive on its comedy alone, I don't think it would.

[A]

It is, it is wild how bad bad everybody is at the basics of being a human being next to another human being.

[B]

Yeah. That is true.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

So gay men have Fat best friends because they want to hurt their moms.

[A]

I forget. Yeah. I. That actually, that actually got past me. That actually got past me. That one was so ridiculous that it like wiped through my brain. Like it just a clean wash. Just whoop. Gone, man.

[B]

Well, because it really feels like. Oh, this is what you think.

[A]

Think. Yeah, yeah. It feels like you are all on an island, buddy. And if we read a bar and you're on that corner and I'm on this corner and you're talking loudly, I'm gonna laugh. I'm gonna think it's hilarious. As long as you stay all the way the fuck over there.

[B]

Yeah. There's a. There's a part of this that almost feels voyeuristic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of like this is. This is like sitting in for therapy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

He shouldn't be talking about.

[A]

This is too much for the public, man.

[B]

So some gay guys, they can't hurt their mothers directly.

[D]

Sure.

[A]

I mean, why.

[B]

And so what they do is they become fashion designers.

[A]

Fine.

[C]

Amazing. Amazing.

[D]

That's why trans was so pop up with single moms because it got them off the hook. It means they didn't turn their son gay when they know they did. They know they did. They know they did. And the sons know they did. And the sons grow up being cruel to women.

Because of what mom did to them.

[C]

So they're hostile toward their moms. Even though many gay men I've known.

[D]

But it's a toxicity, it's a codependent relationship that they know is. They can't. So sometimes they can't visit this cruelty on their mom because they have this close relationship with their mom. But they do it on other women. It's redirected. Right. It's transferred onto other women because they love mommy. Like why would I do that? My mom. But on some level they know that she did that. She did that. So.

They force women into ever more uncomfortable and ever uglier outfits and throw them down runways in 10 inch heels or they what?

[C]

So you think the fashion industry is acting this out?

[D]

Of course it is. I mean, what other explanation could there be for the intolerable ugliness?

[A]

So many walk.

[C]

You are blowing my mind on so many levels.

[B]

This is mind blowing stuff.

[A]

You know what I think?

[D]

Okay.

[A]

I've read a lot about the American Revolution and Ken Burns just came out with another interminable length documentary about the American Revolution. And nobody has yet put forth a theory that I'm becoming more and more convinced of through our re. Relations. Relations. The cause of the American Revolution. Was essentially word count. Y' all talk too much. Y' all talk too much. We gotta go. We gotta go. You are taking too many words to say something that takes far fewer words. So now we're fighting.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense to me, I guess. I mean, like, if you want to dance around what your fucking point is, right? Because I guess there's some danger in actually expressing what your viewpoint is.

That's annoying.

[A]

Get to it.

[B]

It's just annoying behavior.

[A]

Yeah. Russell Brand. Shut the fuck up. Say one word.

[B]

Speaking of which, I think that Milo probably is pissed off that Russell Brand exists. And I would.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Another really fast talking British guy who thinks he's funny. That's in your space.

[A]

Come on. That's in your space.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I would, I would probably be trying to destroy him somehow if I were him. So look, the gay, gay men, they hate women.

[D]

Sure.

[A]

Is that true? Because I feel like that's very much not true in my experience, but.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

No, Milo knows, okay? And that's why Wicked exists.

That lady in Wicked who plays Elphaba.

[C]

And it's funny, I don't know much. I don't know really anything about fashion, but I love female beauty. Of course.

[D]

But you don't see any of it on the catwalk now.

[C]

Exactly. In fact, you see the opposite. You see the opposite.

[A]

What are any of you talking about?

[D]

Manufactured, ugly gay men turning women into the demons they see themselves as, you see, gay. Look at the most celebrated woman on the stage at the moment is the gorgon opposite, Ariana Grande, whose name I forget now. You know this Nosferatu, like black Nosferatu who seems to be sucking the life force out of poor Ariana, who's I think, gonna die within the next few weeks. If you've seen that singer's physique list lately. She sort of. But this, this, this, this, this appalling apparition.

Cynthia or something, I think.

Of course she's called Cynthia. You know, with these, with these claws.

[A]

All right.

[D]

I'm fighting the rare evolution silhouette. And you're like, that's literally Nosferatu. It's literally Nosferatu. And I know a gay man did that. And of course a gay man then put her on stage in Jesus Christ Superstar as our Lord. Did you know that?

[C]

No.

[D]

If you seen, you've seen the person I'm talking about, right?

[A]

I'm throwing tea.

[D]

Well, you'll Google it later. But it's this spindly. It's just, just straight up goblin looking black woman, like. And, and I, you know, I'm not trying to have like a. A. A rose. A. A. A Roseanne moment. Although she was right, you know, whatever. But this woman is like, you know, like. Like ugly by any racial st. Just. Just monstrous looking.

What our mothers might have called deeply unfortunate. Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Practically circus level.

And of course, she's the heroine of the billion dollar franchise now.

[C]

Wicked.

[B]

This is just racist shit Milo's spewing about Cynthia Erivo. It's fine if he doesn't find her attractive, but the rest of this shit is indefensibly racist. And the truth is that I get that Milo thinks he's funny. There's a bunch of points where he says something that he expects might get a laugh from Tucker, but Milo's not funny.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Tucker doesn't need him to be there to throw out one liners and bone mo. Milo's there to be taken seriously as someone who is gay. And because he was gay, he knows that gay people aren't really gay. Just like he was the token gay guy in 2016. Now he needs to be their token formerly gay guy. And that role is not quite as glamorous as the last one.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

First time around, he got to fucking do coke. Now he has to be all religious.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It's quite a demotion. And I understand that sucks, but that's not. That's not justification for this.

[A]

No.

[B]

It's funny that Milo has this problem with Erivo playing Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar when he should probably hate the whole idea of that musical to begin with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Also, John Stamos played King Herod, but I don't hear Milo all mad about that.

[A]

I don't even. I don't even want to get into why. It shouldn't matter to anybody who. Who's doing it on faith reasons. Who plays Jesus Christ in Jesus Christ Superstar? You're. If you care, you're already caring the wrong way.

But. But second. Second.

We'Ve been in the comedy game, right? That is a man who would have gotten off with any laugh. He would have gotten off with any laugh. We could have cut that down by, like, five minutes. If Tucker had given him a little bit of a laugh, he would have been done. He would have. He would have been like. Or do you think he would have been like, ah, now that I got a laugh, the next one's gonna be better.

[B]

He's gonna have one more hot one.

[A]

He's gonna have one more hot. He's one of those. He is. If he gets a laugh, he's gonna. Oh, my God.

[B]

I Think is the kind of person who is long winded and is gonna run the like or what?

[A]

Let me do one more. Yeah, I'm just gonna do one more.

[B]

No amount of laughter that Tucker could have given him would have made this tighten up.

[A]

That was brutal.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

He's not funny.

[B]

So Tucker's sitting there, he's. This is fucking deep stuff. You're blowing my mind.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

And so these gay men who feel the will of Gorgoroth inside them is like, do it.

[A]

Do it.

[D]

You know, and turn these women into the demons they see inside themselves.

[B]

To be clear, just to clarify, this Gorgorath is the name of the semen demon that he's referenced a couple times earlier. Gotcha. But I didn't include those.

[A]

All right.

[D]

You know, the demons they see acting.

[C]

On this is a. A lot deeper than I expected. Is it deeper, this conversation?

[D]

It's more than you would imagine from a guy wearing this T shirt.

[C]

No, it's not, actually. And by the way, can I say one thing that's bothered me for years? When I was a child, there was a lot of creativity coming from gay men in the United States. Like, they.

[D]

It's all gone now.

[C]

I know.

[D]

And it's. Dave Rubin is. Is responsible. Not him personally, but I mean.

[C]

But do you know what I'm talking about?

[D]

I mean, of course. And why?

[C]

Because a lot of free thinking. And I was related to one of them and I spent a lot of time in my house, lived under my house when I was a kid. And gay. Died of aids, you know, but. And had a lot of problems, but in some. But I will say creative free thinking, like truly free thinking. Gore Vidal was like the archetype.

[D]

This is Burkian.

[C]

There are no Gore Vidal in gay world that I'm aware of. They're all like, conformists and supporting the man. Like, what?

[D]

The only ones these days are ex gay.

[C]

But do you know what I'm talking about?

[D]

Yes, and it's Burkian. It's because creativity arises out of order. There has to be limits. And if homosexuality is not prescribed as wretched and kept at the fringes where it belongs, creativity dies. And what do you get? Because you don't have those people playing with the limits. You don't have the taboo breakers. You don't have the artists, the creatives living at the limits of society. They're brought instead of. And I have to say, I think.

[C]

The gay community such as this is one of the least creative, most conformist elements of our society. I never thought I Would say that.

[D]

They become the enforcers.

[C]

Just like they're the enforcers. They're the praetorian guard for Apple and Microsoft. What the hell?

[D]

Just like the white women of folklore who, you know, are responsible for all evil, but they become like turbocharged Karens.

[B]

You know, the cartoon version of gay people that they all believe exist is the mainstream and the praetorian guard of the. The status quo. But this, this conversation is just fucking stupid.

[A]

I appreciate the ability. See, this is. Again, this is the advantage to having a made up enemy.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

They can be anything you want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you know, here's my problem. Too many gays in Hollywood. Too many gays in Hollywood tomorrow. Did you know that? My problem is gonna be the gays in Hollywood aren't as creative as they were when there were too many of them. And you know, my problem tomorrow is there's no gays in Hollywood. But now there's too many gays in Hollywood. The next day, it doesn't matter. None of it means anything.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

God, I hate them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to fight them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I hate them so much. Listening to them use all the words.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, they used words.

[B]

I feel like you're getting close to telekinesis. Well, you, you were sort of spasming a little bit earlier.

[A]

I was literally holding one hand over my eyes.

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think we're getting close.

[A]

That one was bad. I. I mean, man. Man.

[B]

Well, I also think that there's. There's an interesting point to be made about art often being better when it's made by people who are living on the fringes.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, marginalized people oftentimes do create better art.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not an argument to marginalize them though. That's stupid.

[A]

Nor is it even close to any conversation that they are actually having. No, the quality of art of something is not what they are discussing new. They are just saying here's another reason that I feel like hating gay people today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why not make this one up?

[B]

And Tucker's like, there's no free thinkers in gay world that I'm aware of. Are you talking about what that I'm aware of is such a heavy qualifier bearing.

[A]

Load bearing qualifier.

[B]

Right. Who are you aware of, Tucker?

[A]

You on the sub stack of a lot of left leaning individuals? No, I am not surprised. Yeah.

[B]

So Milo has some regrets.

[A]

I mean, if I was him.

[B]

Yeah. One of the biggest regrets he has is that he mainstreamed being gay.

[D]

It was me 10 years ago. Mainstreaming homosexuality into the Republican party is the great regret of my life, more so than anything I've done to my own soul, which is a lot. It's the great regret of my life because it has given rise to horrors I never imagined. I mean, Lenin said, you know, all revolutionaries come to hate their children, you know, while the gay horrors that I've given birth to. Lady Marga, Nick Fuentes, I mean, they keep me up at night. They keep me up at night.

I mean, you know.

[C]

Why did you mention Dave Rubin? What's his role?

[D]

Well, because he is at the vanguard, along with another of other gays in public life, of introducing children into the equation.

[B]

Tucker wanted to move along from the Nick Fuentes thing because he recently apologized for calling Nick gay. He doesn't want to reopen this whole thing.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

We can't be doing this all.

[B]

Yeah. Milo hates Nick. Listen, Tucker's tried to be nice with him. Come on.

[A]

I'm not sure who to hate at any given point in time, so I'm just going to hate each of you individually as a. As you come.

[B]

Yes. Last year we worked together on ye's Nazi campaign for president. Yes, that's true, but we had different.

[A]

All of them are absolutely fucking insane.

[B]

The worst.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So Dave Rubin is brought up.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And Milo's like, oh, he wants to bring children into this.

[A]

Who's David Rubin again?

[B]

Dave Rubin's a guy who used to work for the Young Turks and then he left the left.

[A]

Right, right, right, right. He's that guy.

[B]

He's a gay classical liberal.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And he and his husband adopted children. And the right way wing fucking immediately was like, you.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You should have seen that one coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're in a nice bag.

[D]

I remember. And I. This is the thing I regret more than anything else in the world. There's a video of Ross Matthews in 2017 on Twitter saying, so I came home and landscapers have been in. We're getting more citrus. You can never have too much citrus. And I. People were asking me, what do you think about this Milo guy? And I'm like, milo, Milo, how low can you go? I don't know who this person is, but I read it and he says, I'm getting letters. This is Milo guy. He's resigning from Breitbart or something. And he says, I'm getting letters from people who say, you make it okay that I have a gay son because if he grows up, he doesn't have to be like Ross Matthews. And I was like, no, they should be like Ross Matthews. They should be like Ross Matthews. They shouldn't be like Dave Ruby. Like, you might not even know unless you watched him for a little bit. Because this domesticity of homosexuals has killed all the things that were good about gays, that made them, like, tolerable.

And instead has given them this grotesque parody, this simulacrum of domesticity, which has, of course, in their never ending hunger, expanded to include babies.

And now we have have the Buttigieg couple buying black children.

[C]

I thought you weren't allowed to buy people. I thought, oh, no, you can.

[B]

You can see how there's no way to win with these guys. Like, Milo's mad at the decadence and debauchery of the gay lifestyle, but he's also mad at the gay people who just want to live quiet, domestic lives and have a family. It doesn't matter what gay people do. They'll always be sinners to someone like Milo and Tucker. They're just trying to pretend to have a conversation about something that involves society and politics, but at the core of it, this is just about their fundamentalist religious beliefs. And I find they're beating around the bush. Tiresome. Just get to the fucking point already.

[A]

Yeah, I was. I was thinking while I was listening to that blistering nonsense, I was thinking, like, what if we were birds, right? Like, if you're a bird that just talks this much shit, another bird eats you. Like, that's just how it goes. Like, if you talk this much shit, you're gonna get. Your problem's gonna be solved for itself.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

How did humans get past that? You know, once you get to the top of the food chain, you can talk too much shit. That's what it is.

[B]

And it's not even. Oh, you mean top of the food chain? As humans?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought you were saying that Milo is at the top of the food.

[A]

No, no, no. As humans. Like, you know, like, if. If we were still worried about tigers, like, on the regular, then I don't think anybody would talk as much shit as they do right now.

[B]

No, we would prioritize, I think so.

[A]

I think we need to go back. We need to let loose tigers in right wing spaces is what I'm trying to say.

[B]

You have an interesting proposal? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe control of tigers will be your superpower.

[A]

Could be a good one.

[B]

So Dave Rubin and his husband, they didn't even adopt or buy a baby. They made a Franken baby. They put their sperm in a thing and they mixed it up.

[A]

Science.

[D]

But Dave Rubin has, like, Frankensperm babies. Like, he mixed his effluvia with that of his husband. I mean, this is real. This is physical. Gave it a stir and hoped for the best. And whichever one we get, we get implanted it in some highly paid woman will never know the name of them.

[A]

Or just a regularly paid.

[D]

And, you know, he and his. His. His catamite are on.

[B]

On.

[D]

On the Internet, you know, with these signs, like it's coming with these two dates. And I'm like, yeah, your damnation. That's the date. You're counting down to the. The. The. The. The date. You're.

[C]

How is that conservative?

[D]

Oh, because it's family, you see, because it's. It's the. The. The. The. The sleight of hand, like, that's going on is you're like, well, gays are just like everybody else, so we should behave like everybody else, which means we should have kids. And if we can't physically have kids because our sex is this, like, demonic, sterile horror show, then we'll buy them or it's a lot of fun we've got. I mean, that's how bad it is. That's how bad it is. And so you have the. I love. I don't know if it says anything about Republicans versus Democrats, but you have, like, Dave Rubin, who. For whom buying a child is not good enough. It must be his own, you know, like.

The conceit of that.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[D]

You've got this sort of techno conceit, Franken baby. And on the left, they adopt blacks. You know, you've got these two wispy, wiry faggots who adopted two black babies. I mean, isn't Buttigieg just the most interesting character of our age?

[B]

It really feels like Milo's desperate to shock someone.

[A]

Yeah, anybody.

[B]

He's not really getting much of a response out of Tucker because. Because Tucker wants to take Milo's shit seriously. So there's just this weird vibe that's going on here. He's trying to provoke an incite in a room where that's not what's supposed to happen.

[A]

Yeah, it's terrible.

[B]

The image that I keep getting in my head watching this is of Milo holding a sign that says, will offend you for food. And people just walking past, like, it's just like, all right, man.

[A]

Okay, cool. So here's my question, right? Now that we have established that you can just spin some sperm around and then see what happens. How does Lucifer feel about that? Right? So Lucifer now has this available to him, scientific options have expanded. So maybe Lucifer could just like make out with the dude. Spit their spin their spit up together. I have no idea how science works. Well, you know what I'm saying, like Lucifer doesn't need God's creation anymore. He can use man's creation to make baby.

[B]

Yeah. But I think we can get around this real easily.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Lucifer doesn't have sperm. Angels don't make jizz.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

Yeah. So that would be the way around that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He still couldn't use his own seed.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

To falsify God's creation.

[A]

Oh, God, he's. God has thought of everything. When you stop and think about it, he's really got you coming and going.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Literally.

[B]

So speaking of coming. Yep.

[A]

I'm going to be going.

[B]

Tucker is like, hey, man, that promiscuous gay sex stuff, it's great, right? Let's talk how fun it is.

[A]

It's super fun.

[B]

How fun is that? What's super fun?

[C]

So do you know.

Like the happiness level of people who are involved in like promiscuous gay sex?

[D]

Like when you.

When you.

Live that kind of life, you live it. You're living deep in profound denial. And it comes from. I read something in, in maybe it's the Atlantic or, or, or Mother Jones, one of some of all places. You know, some left wing gay guy who just wrote about this really beautifully. I'll try to find it and tweet it after this. But he said when, when, when. When homosexuals are young, they realize they have to put on different faces for different people. I guess the racial equivalent be code switching, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And the effect of this on a person who has disordered urges, unlike someone who just happens to be black, is that it begins to like create cracks and ultimately that turn into like shards in the personality. Like bits of the personality like burst, ping off like a chandelier that fell to the floor.

[C]

It's so sad.

[D]

Yeah. And it produces the space for profound denial of the type that most homosexual men find themselves in, where that flooding of addictive urge is mistaken for healthy and normal sexual attraction. And so I kind of stumbled when I, when I looked into. I just woke up one day and I was like. And I was married to a dude.

To my shame, and I. Who's now like the ex wife from hell. My God.

Look, if there's no other reason to like not be gay, just imagine like how bad a black homosexual ex wife is.

[A]

Oh, like if you're a Nazi, I'm.

[C]

Not even gonna go there.

[D]

You don't even want to know. It's like, oh, sorry. It was two sports cars a year wasn't enough. Okay, all right, okay, all right. Don't even. But.

When I woke up one day and I. I woke up one day and I looked over, I was like, oh, no, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, hell is real. I don't want to go there. And it just hit me, like, after it was growing, you know, while I was just like, no, no, I really don't want to go there. And I. No.

[B]

Chalk one more riff up for Milo. That didn't land.

[A]

Not gonna go well.

[B]

Tough crowd. This Tucker guy. He's not giving it. It's an interesting idea that Milo brings up about how gay people have to code switch around different people and how that can lead to fractures in a person. I don't know if that's true or how common an experience it is, but I would say that the problem there isn't someone being gay. It's that they would need to code switch entire aspects of their personality, presumably because they know it's not safe for them to be themselves in certain company.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I feel like the solution to that is working towards creating a world where people don't have to do that. And it kind of feels like Milo's solving the wrong problem here.

[A]

Yeah. I think that a lot of people mistake.

Being safe from God and his punishment and wrath for the same as being safe from, say, the people around you who are professed Christians and their wrath and punishment. So if you are somebody who's like, oh, I'm hiding because God will be angry at me. Stop. Pull back. Maybe you're hiding because there's an asshole out there who's gonna hate.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. There's overlap.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

So Milo woke up in bed with his husband, and he was like, oh, my God, I don't want to go to hell.

[A]

I'm gonna go to hell. Is that what he was thinking?

[B]

I guess.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Well, whatever. Yep. So he decided he had to set out to figure out how to not be gay, of course. And so he decided he would embark on a path of self harm. And he discusses this as if it was a good idea. Hmm.

[D]

And the way that I started to address this.

I kind of stumbled upon a crude version of what the enlightened. Like, they don't call it conversion therapy anymore. They call it reintegrative therapy because it's reintegrating those shards and those broken bits of memory that lead to the wrong output. We can talk in detail if you want to.

[A]

But.

[D]

I stumbled upon kind of like a crude version of that. So when I was trying to stop myself from doing this stuff, I was using, like, hot oil on my thighs. I was like, doing things, you know, like.

[A]

Like self flagellation.

[D]

And I was trying to rewire my brain.

[A]

No one's ever tried that before because.

[D]

I read a lot of, you know, psychology, anthropology books and stuff like that. So I thought, I don't know.

[C]

Sex urge is such a basic and powerful urge. It's got to be hard.

[D]

I thought I knew what I was doing. So I was like, every time I get aroused, I'm going to go and do something that hurts, you know? And so I took these. The. I took the, you know, like, pay my taxes. No. You know.

Like having sex with black people. No, no, no.

Immediately. To try to redo that. And there's a much better way to do it, which I can talk to you about. But.

I was. I was. I think I was recognizing in that that I had this.

Something had jumped the tracks in my brain, Right. And I was having an incorrect response to a particular stimulus as a result of damage, trauma, whatever, and that. And that it's a little bit like being a PTSD victim or some other kinds of sexual deviance. Right. And that.

I knew that I could train my way out of it because at the same time, I had been returning to the Catholic faith of my childhood. And I had been speaking to a dear friend. She's a very brilliant professor in Chicago. She's a world's leading expert on Marian devotion in the Middle Ages. And.

She was kind of like feeding me this rich material about training the soul in virtue. And I was like, okay, well, if I can do that, that. Because I'm getting pretty good at that. Like, what about this? And so I. I did this stuff. And. And I. And I. I got myself as far as celibacy, which is where I am. Coming in January, it'll be five years of celibacy. Yeah.

[B]

This is not a success story. Milo didn't want to be gay anymore, so he started hurting himself whenever he felt arousal. And through this groundbreaking approach, he's managed to not have sex for five years. And yeah, that is the crude version of conversion therapy, I guess. Torture.

[A]

That is exactly how it works. Yes.

[B]

Milo is torturing himself to try to not feel arousal toward Matt.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

This all just sucks because I believe that Milo is a fucked up dude with a lot of trauma that he needs to sort through, and I wish him the best with it. But this is an unacceptable way to do it. If he wants to self harm his way towards celibacy, I guess I can't stop him. But to pretend that there's some kind of larger wisdom here that can help anyone else, that's fucking insane.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Someone in Milo's situation doesn't need to create a new layer of shame to replace whatever obsessive cycle he was in before. He doesn't need to find a new mechanism to create the illusion of being in control of himself. He needs to make peace with and accept the parts of his life that are beyond control. Maybe his attraction to men is beyond his control. Maybe it's not. But burning yourself with hot oil whenever you think of sexy men is a really good way to never know for sure. Sure. You're just gonna end up with some scars and a slightly different preoccupation involving sexy men. Like maybe a brilliant theory about how no one is actually gay. Huh. Yeah. This is fucking stupid and incredibly dangerous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think the only saving grace is that almost no one would listen to Milo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I don't think anyone would take his advice. So that is kind of comforting.

[A]

Yeah. I think. I think one of the big things that should shut down a conversation is did society try this in the past on Moss and did it work? That's a good question. Right? Okay. You want to outlaw gay people existing. Has society in the past tried that? Bunch of times. How did it go? We're still here with gay people. So it didn't work back then. Probably not going to work into the future.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Have self. Has self flagellation been tried in the past? Better believe. Believe it. Better believe it. Did it work? We are here in 2025 where there's still gay people.

[B]

And I think I'd like to refine your point even more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would say that if your idea is something that might have been popular in a year, that was three digits, then yeah, maybe we didn't nail too.

[A]

Many of them in the three digit years. That wasn't. We do it. We aren't like, oh man, thank God for 742. That's. That shit rocked. Nope.

[B]

We really figured it out.

[A]

Not one time.

[B]

Yeah. So Milo is. He believes that he is, you know, he's leaving the gay world. He has tortured himself out of being attracted to men, which is how it works. And he has. He's gotten the success of not having sex with anyone for five years.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the gay people just don't want him to leave. They can't Accept it. They won't let him.

[A]

So.

[C]

So you spent like an hour and 20 minutes describing the hell that you lived. You thought it was hellish, you left.

And you. It sounds like you feel better and certainly resolved, but you're not encouraged to feel that way. Like, there's something about the life that you live that's treated like, take a gang initiation or something. Like, you can check in, but you can never leave. Like, you're not welcome to leave.

[D]

Well, just look at the comments you get. Like, forgive the language, but under every post that I will make online or every. Every. You know, on the rare occasion I. I might say something about this in an interview, one phrase keeps popping up over and over again in the comments. You can't unsuck a dick. Meaning there's no salvation from for you once you're gay, or gay, you're gay, you're homosexual, but that's it.

[C]

Who's pushing that?

[D]

The stain that that leaves. Right. Which is profoundly unchristian. I mean, we think about Isaiah, right? You know, your sins may be scarlet, but they'll be washed white as snow.

[C]

Dude, Saul became Paul, right?

[D]

Doesn't exist for these people.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

And it's often leftist, but not always, you pricks.

[B]

There are no leftists who think Milo can't be forgiven for sucking a dick. They might be trolling him, but the people who think he can't unsuck a dick are the people he's pandering to right now.

[A]

They're your buddies.

[B]

Which makes this self serious tone a little bit more pathetic.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

No one cares if Milo's gay or not. It doesn't matter. But he's unfortunately in a position where he's gonna be made fun of no matter what he does, which is kind of his own fault. We would have never known who Milo was if he didn't use his sexuality as a brand, like with the name of his book in his tour. Because that allowed him to be used by the extreme right as a token gay gu. That made them look slightly less bigoted. Yep. He accepted the terms of the deal and he was paid handsomely to be that guy. Until he went a little bit outside of what the right wing can handle and he got cut off by his donors. Whether or not his newfound heterosexuality is sincere, it's impossible for him to ask anyone to take him seriously, given the career he's had up till this point. His entire thing relied on him provoking a reaction from people, and he often used his sexuality to incite that reaction action. So it's easy to see how someone could think that that's just what he's doing again. And even if people don't think that, why the fuck should they care about what Milo is doing a good 10 years after his sell by date? What is it that matters here? No one cares. He's going to be mocked from now on and probably more meanly by the people he wishes liked him.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Milo's pretending that the gays won't let him leave and they just want to keep him marked with their sin forever. But really it's just people making fun of him because he's an asshol who was an asshole to them for years. So I say this with no love or respect, but sack up, young man. You made a career of saying way worse stuff to people than you can't unsuck a dick. So it sounds a little weak to hear you whining about it now with Tucker. Yeah, this. You're the king troll. Shut the fuck up.

[A]

I mean, come on, man. Yeah, that is weak.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What I, what I notice about these two, right, is that they go back and forth, forth on. Are we talking about sex or are we talking about societal behaviors? Right. So are we talk. When you say like, oh, we're, we're not against gay people, blah blah, blah, blah blah. But they're grosses me out like, okay, that's that. But then whenever there's anything to go, like, oh well, then they have kids, like the regular family that you like. Well, no, no, no, it's not about that. It's about the behavior, it's about the politics. It's about all this. This stuff. Okay, well then why should it matter who's gay? Well, it's also about the sex and it's. Yeah, but it's only about one. Whenever. That's the one where they feel strong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not that. Whenever they feel weak.

[B]

Well, yeah, and it's the. What I was talking about earlier. There's no way you can win.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like what, they just think this is a sin. Yep. And want no one to be gay. And they just don't have the like. I guess Milo's kind of close to like owning that position. But this conversation isn't like bluntly about that.

[A]

No.

[B]

And Tucker is way too afraid to just make it clear that that's what he wants.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That he thinks that gay people are an aberration and shouldn't be around.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

Like they're, they're just unwilling to get real with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's that's why you have to play the game that you're describing.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I find it kind of interesting that that's not how we operate. Right? Like if, if somebody does something like this, then you can get a transcript and you can take their words and you can literally parse them. You can literally go like, if these words have meaning, then here is what he means. And if at the end of it, what he means is gay people are evil cuz God, then we don't need to have that many words.

[B]

No. And you don't need to bring in the political stuff. You don't need like that's all just window dressing. It's not.

[A]

People are evil cuz God done. You don't need this Milo talking for eight minutes to say nothing bullshit.

[B]

Well, he stammers really well, I disagree even that point. Oh, it's charming.

[A]

I disagree.

[B]

So people are scared. The gays are scared?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because if Milo can leave, maybe everyone can.

[A]

That is not how. Nope, nope, nope.

[D]

People are terrified by the idea that.

This might not be an intrinsic.

Part of a person's personality or nature. Right.

[B]

Why?

[C]

Why are they afraid of that? I thought we were for personal choice.

[D]

Well, we're all a bit afraid of that, aren't we? Because we're all kind of like, you know, we see other people who are, are doing well in life or who have got themselves out of a sticky situation or, you know, who left their phone on the table when they went to the bathroom in the break or whatever, and who.

And who lash out against others who do seem to be achieving something redemptive. And isn't it true that one of those characterizations of the demons is that they're, you know, in the presence of the light, in the presence of good, of the word, of God. They hiss and spit. Right. And it's not necessarily these people who are gay themselves, but they, they.

To confront the horror that a gay person might be able to un. Gay means that whatever you've got going in your life, you could fix easy, but you don't want, you don't want to get better.

[A]

That's your pitch?

[D]

Because if he can stop having sex with men.

Knowing what a powerful compulsion urge that is for most men, that might mean I have to stop. That might mean I have to stop taking drugs. That might mean I have to stop being a fat ass. That might mean I have to stop being cruel, being vindictive, abusive, malicious. And I think that part of it is certainly that we have become a society that encourages vice over virtue, that Aggressively pushes sin.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

This is the kind of stuff that Milo should probably keep in his jerk, because it sounds like more affirmations than a serious point. Yeah, it kind of feels like a rough draft of a motivational speech he hopes to give one day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it just feels really dumb.

[A]

Yeah. This is the Jordan Belfort version of speaking about Christianity where you're like, oh, no, no, no, it's totally cool. I'm a Christian now. I will steal from you.

[B]

I sincerely don't care if Milo's gay or not. But as an external observer, he seems miserable. His wit is dull. His laugh and joie de vivre are unconvincing. He's still trying to rely on gay affectations to be funny. And this is the result of five years of self torture. It's not like he tortured himself for a while and then he was straight. This is a half decade worth of work, and he seems no better off than when he started. He's not having relationships with women. He just quit sex cold turkey. And at a couple times in the interview, he kind of intimates that he still has sexual feelings towards men. Obviously, this dude is free to be whoever he wants to be, but whatever this is doesn't work. That doesn't mean he has to be gay or anything. But this is no good. He seems like he should quit.

[A]

Yeah, this is bad.

[B]

So we enter a period of the show where Milo is complaining about various things in society that are too gay.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So he tees off first on food. Okay, food's too gay.

[A]

Food's too gay. Is food gay now?

[B]

You're eating like a gay. Okay, okay.

[C]

What other gay habits are men acquiring?

[D]

Definitely food. Which, I mean, like, if you're. If you're a chap. So I was in the hotel last night as I was thinking about this show, and I looked at the menu and I was like, there's nothing on here for men. It was all these, like, seafood.

A bit, that hand and whatever. And the guy that was serving me had a huge ginger beard.

God bless him. And I said, you don't eat here? And he said, well. And I said, you don't eat here. Where do you eat? And he said. I said, okay, fine. And I said, is there anything on here that you would eat aside from this? And it didn't say how big the filet was, but I was like, what is it, six ounces? What do you need four of those? And he was like, yeah.

[A]

I was like, you work here and.

[D]

You'Re just like, you wouldn't eat Anything. Cause there's nothing for men on the menu. Cause it's all this, like airy fairy, unsatisfied calorie, rich, full of, like, you know, flavor, but no protein. Food for girls. All food for girls. Look at the menu in your favorite restaurant. Look at the menu in every restaurant. There's no food for men on it. I mean, like, where.

[A]

Where is it?

[B]

Why. Why are you eating all this woman food? I would like to now propose that Milo and Adam Carolla restart the man show.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Because this is the level of human.

[A]

What are we doing?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What are we. Is this Tim Allen's early career? What is happening?

[B]

I need a steak because I'm a man.

[A]

I have a man. So I. What? What do we do it? Come on, man. But come up with new material.

[B]

But it's not just food. You know what else is gay?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Women.

[D]

Yeah, women have become fagotized by the promising.

[A]

So tired of gay friends.

[D]

You know, words don't have meaning to sort of have a nudge and a wink kind of relationship with like, oh, I don't do it. But who's this? I. Oh, just Jamal.

You know.

Who's this? That's not the guy that you were with like three days ago. Quiet girl. Sorry about her. You know, like just all that kind of stuff. And men. Just the way in which the self destructive.

Self sacrifice, the relinquishment of the world will to the most addictive version of everything. It's very gay.

[B]

So here's a good point where Milo's showing a few too many cards. He's equating something being gay with something being the most addictive version of something that's available. Promiscuous sex is more addicting than monogamous relationships. So promiscuous sex is gay. Yep. Eating unhealthy food and empty calories is more addictive than a sturdy diet. So eating unhealthy is gay. He's just made gay a proxy for the things he wants to do but feels like he shouldn't. And none of this really has any meaning outside of his head.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

This is possibly one of the most embarrassing interviews I've watched in the time that I've been doing this show. And we're 1,100 episodes into this. This is very bleak.

[A]

I would not want to. If. If I had given this interview and said those things. Things. I would very much want a phone call afterwards and I would be like, can we edit down?

[B]

Yeah, bury this thing.

[A]

How about I say hello, thanks for having me and Then we're done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, I mean, it would be. I. I think maybe Milo paid for the airtime.

[A]

So, like, I mean, maybe.

[B]

Maybe you didn't have a choice.

[A]

Talk about fumbling the. At the goal line. Jesus.

[B]

So food is gay. Women are good.

[A]

That's so. It's so exhausting when people aren't funny who really think they're funny.

[B]

So clothes now are gay, Right?

[A]

Right, sure.

[D]

Divers version of everything. So, like, if gay sex is, like, addiction, where it just floods your mind with, like, the chemicals where you can't.

[A]

So it's better than other types of.

[D]

Well, the food has become like that, and the clothes have become like that, and. And the. You know, like, men buying designer clothes has always been a bit sus to me.

[C]

Oh, I totally agree.

[D]

Like, I'm. I mean, I do it because I'm like, I've got about another three years where I can still get away with this, and then I'm gonna have to just be straight.

Still do it, you know? And then I'm gonna have to find, like, some. Like, I'm gonna have to find my own nudge and a wink thing. Like, oh, no, they're not Dr. Shimano. They're Arellano. Oh, it's the late Pope Benedict XVI's favorite shoemaker from. Right. You're faggotized.

[B]

You know, stop it.

[D]

You know, I have to give all this up. But someone who's been heterosexual all their life, like, what are you doing in Dior? Well, I mean, they only make shoes, I think. No, no, no. There's male Dior now. What are you doing? It's Chanel that doesn't do men's clothes. What are you doing in Dolce and Gabbana? What are you doing in Versace? Why are you spending a thousand dollars on a pair of shoes that is not like a. Like a tactical or a. And even that stuff. Oh, my God. Like, the faggotization of, like, the. Of the. You know, you can go now. You can go to Cryptek, and you can get the Versace of camo.

Their salespeople will even call it that. Not on the website, because men don't like that. But there's now, like, Designer of Camo, where. I mean, I know I have it, but.

[A]

Shut up, shut up, shut up.

[B]

This is a portrait of a man at war with himself. It's so clear how much he likes the designer brands of clothes and how important those are as status symbols for him. But this new mythology that he's taken on requires him to give this stuff up if he wants to be heterosexual.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

More than any other interview I've got. Seen Tucker do this. Feels like a guy who's just spinning out. He feels like someone who should be on a sabbatical. This just doesn't like he shouldn't be in public.

[A]

Well, I mean, he opens with something that amounts to saying gay sex is the best sex. It's the best. It is the best. I love gay sex so much.

[B]

It fills your brain with endorphins.

[A]

Oh my God. It's so great that I don't even think about anything else. I'm. I'm sorry. I love the Lord Jesus Christ.

[B]

So music gay. I mean, turns out music's gay, fine.

[A]

But yeah, music's always been gay.

[D]

Making these decisions, women. And we, and we have this women, women in the marketing departments, women in the, in the advertising, women on social media. Everything's going gay. And, and, and, and, and it's, it's justified. And just the same way the Pink Pound is self reinforcing this thing we always say. Oh, women make most of the purchasing decisions in most houses. Shut up. Like, doesn't mean every man has to go out looking like he wants to drop on his knees.

In a public park or in a toilet just because his wife chooses what washing powder they use. Like. Stop it.

[C]

Wait, what?

[D]

Everything has gone gay. Everything's gone gay.

[A]

I mean, think about gay sex all the time.

[D]

Now we force heterosexuals to listen to Lil Nas X, you know, who is super sexy, sort of, you know, endless turnover of, of preening homosexual crooners who.

[A]

I want to fuck.

[D]

There aren't any anymore because, you know, pop stars require a kind of like heroic manly virtue. I think that is just, just gone now. It's just not there anymore.

[C]

So if you wanted to weaken a society to the point of collapse, faggotize it.

[B]

This is, this is a lot.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think.

[A]

And we close with get her done.

[B]

I think that we. You know, Tucker, at the beginning of this was saying we should go back to 1985.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And you know, Milo saying that we don't have pop stars anymore or any of this because they're all. Everything's too gay.

[A]

I mean, I guess we're going to Buddy Holly. Is that where we're at now? Is that the level of repression and manly singers that we're dealing with here?

[B]

Yeah, that'll be the day.

[A]

You know what? I want to go back to when men were men and singers were men. Like Liberace Give me that good man shit. He dressed so good. Great.

[B]

And I. I don't think that lil Nas X is being forced on anyone. I think some people enjoy him.

[A]

Is that still. Is that. Is that a current reference?

[B]

I mean, I think he's had some other songs.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

You know, I'm fine with that. Yeah.

[A]

I'm just saying you can. Yeah, there's. There's plenty of gay people in every aspect of life.

[B]

Yeah. You can enjoy pop culture or not too. You can just. You can like what you like.

[A]

There is no way you have to behave either if you're gay. You can just do whatever the fuck you. You want.

[B]

But unfortunately, society as a whole is gay.

[D]

Society is not becoming feminist.

[A]

Then a guy.

[D]

It's become. It's. It's. It has been gay, you know, and it's.

And, And. And it's. It's like the difference between effeminacy and femininity. Right. You look carefully at the behaviors. It's like it might have started off feminized, like you said. Oh, the HR departments have kind of like feminized language in the corporate sphere and blah, blah. It might have started that way, but the gays took over very soon afterwards. And so now we don't have a feminized public square. We have a faggotized public square. And it's hardly surprising given that everybody in Congress and everybody in the Senate and everybody in the party and everybody on TV and everybody else that you've ever heard of on television and everybody on all the TV shows are gay. It's not a shocker this will be the result, because even if they might be living.

A DLI lives, they still like what they like.

[B]

I think that Milo's point is a little unclear here because he's kind of saying that literally everyone in the world is gay. But at the beginning of this, he was arguing that no one was gay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I don't know what the deal is.

[A]

Well, if no one is gay, then everyone is gay. That is. Those are both true statements. If one, then the other. Yeah, that is true, I suppose. Cool. I mean, again, at the end of the day, this guy is just saying.

[B]

Like, think he's just spinning out, I.

[A]

Want to have sex with a guy.

[B]

Yeah, you can read that into this if you want. I'm not. I'm not gonna join you in that. But I just. I think that he has a lot of feelings. Yeah, he's dealing with some stuff in.

[A]

Really bad ways, and they're all totally normal feelings that can totally be Dealt with by everybody all the time. Everybody's dealing with shit very similar to this. Nobody is also going on Tucker and being like, I hate gay people and I never anybody. And I pour hot oil on my legs. Yeah, nobody's doing that.

[B]

I'm not making excuses for him on the guise of, like, hey, he's going through some stuff. No, that's just like. Like, critical analysis of what's going on here.

[A]

That's my problem. My problem with it is Tucker's response to all of this should be like, buddy, you're actually fine.

[B]

I'm trying to use you for something.

[A]

Totally fine.

[B]

Can you. Can you calm down?

[A]

Everyone around you has made you crazy, but you're like a normal guy. I swear to God. God, you're just so bad at it.

[B]

So Tucker wants to ask about, like, hey, since you stopped being gay, how has that changed your life?

[A]

Not good.

[B]

Well, he. Milo has an interesting answer.

[C]

Okay, so how has your life changed day to day, now that you're celibate and getting away from trying to overcome your gay sexual impulses?

[A]

Us.

[D]

I don't really have them anymore. Not, Not. Not often.

My life is so. So I've learned.

Well, the first thing to say is that dogs have stopped barking at me.

[B]

What?

[D]

I mean, I used to set dogs off. Like, really set dogs. Like, they would go crazy around me, and when I really. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

With hostility or affection, they can sense.

[D]

Even evil, you know?

[A]

Boo.

[D]

I can only tell this joke because it's my spiritual director that said it.

I said, do you think it's because they can sense evil? He said, no, it's because you don't smell like blacks anymore.

[C]

Let the record reflect I'm not laughing.

[B]

He was laughing.

[A]

Of course he was laughing.

[B]

Yeah, man, you got a racist spiritualist. That's fun.

[A]

I mean, cool. Yeah, that's a gut punch. That's a good gut punch to.

[B]

Yeah, that's interesting that, like, you know, Tucker wants some kind of answer that's meaningful, and instead, dogs don't bark at me anymore. Oh, here's a racist joke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

I. Nothing is different. Nothing's different. Nothing is different. Well, no, I'm just hurting myself because people will give me money.

[B]

Dogs don't bark at him anymore.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

And then. Well, maybe you don't believe that, but what about this?

[D]

The biggest thing that changed me, though, which is not like a big. The biggest thing to me, because I live quite an internal life, you know, like, most of my. Most of my life is up here, right.

The Biggest thing that happened to me is I started caring what happened in stories. Like, spoilers started to bother me, and I couldn't figure out what that was about.

Like, 10 years ago, when the Star wars movie came out just before Christmas, when no one had had the chance to see, I tweeted, han Solo dies. You know, like, a thousand people unfollowed me. And they're like, how could you.

[A]

Ah.

[D]

You know, you're the worst person. I was like, what are you talking about? It's like a stupid space movie. Like, get a grip. But I started to care. Maybe because I started to care what happens to me.

[B]

So this isn't the kind of answer that Tucker wanted. He's asking him how his life is different now that he's not gay. And Milo throws out a racist joke about dogs not barking at him. Then this overly dramatic shit about how he doesn't like movie spoilers anymore. This is. This is, I think, somebody who thinks that this interview is supposed to be like, let's figure out what my. What makes Milo tick as opposed to Tucker wants him there to attack gay people.

[A]

We're hating gay people.

[B]

That's what you're here for.

[A]

You are here to give your testimony. This is the part where you give your testimony.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, this is the most obvious, like, we're in youth group question there's ever been. How has God changed your life? Life is the qu. Is the. Where you say how fucking great your life is now that God is there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't go, like, I'm still. I'm still really depressed. I'm weird because of all the other things that are going on in my life.

[B]

Very, very angry.

[A]

And this conversation has not made me feel better. So up to and including this moment, everything has sucked since I stopped being openly and voraciously gay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So I'm going to skip the next couple clips because actually, no, I am going to play one of these clips. Most of this is just about, like, Milo and Tucker talking about, could you believe the conversion therapy is banned? And talking about how effective it is and how they want everyone to be forced to stay gay.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

But I will play this one clip because it's Milo talking about the guy who is. His. Is his conversion therapy guy, the researcher that he supports. Okay.

[C]

So how do people change and what is the process?

[D]

Well.

The father of this stuff the most. I mean, there are some quacks. Oh, I bet we're not going to lie about it. But the father of the stuff, the most respectable stuff with the Highest success rate. The guy's name was Joseph Nicholas Pelosi and I can't find most of his books on Amazon. Obs. But actually. Yeah.

[C]

Why? Well, because they're suppressed.

So that just tells you that right there. If they're banning books.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. Well, I don't.

[A]

You.

[D]

I'm not such a. I'm not such an anti book band guy. You're a bit more of a free speech. Fun.

[B]

Both of you.

[D]

What were the Nazis burning? What were they burning? Ask them. Like.

[C]

I know. I'm. I'm very aware of that. I guess. What I'm just saying, more of a free speech fun. I am a free speech.

[D]

I have evolved into more of an authoritarian over the last 10 years.

[C]

Well, I'm not even having that debate. I'm just saying that you know what's important to people. You know what they're lying about by what they try and hide.

[B]

You're not having the free speech debate with a guy who just said that he's an authoritarian. Shouldn't you be super against that? Tucker, what the fuck are you doing? So there's a couple moments here that are very telling for Tucker. It seems like he gets that the Nazi book burnings weren't so bad because they were burning gay books.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he has a belief that you can tell what's important to someone by what they trust to hide.

[A]

Right.

[B]

These are the two things that sort of jump out at you. So in that spirit, I'd like to remind you where we started in this episode with Tucker hiding the majority of the Ugandan anti gay act from his audience in order to pretend that it was about outlawing rape. Yep. You can tell that something's important to someone by what they hide. And Tucker hid the reality of what that Ugandan law was about. I believe that the only reason that Tucker did that was so that he could pretend that his content isn't what it actually is. Is a disgusting, over the top hate broadcast. If he spent the first half hour of this show full throatedly defending a law that put consenting gay adults in jail for life, there really wouldn't be a mystery about how you're supposed to hear all this bullshit that he's doing with Milo. The only way that he can stay in any way defensible is if he pretends a little bit here and there. And the only way to do that is to lie and to hide things strategically.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And he understands. He knows the strategies.

[A]

Yep. Man.

That.

[B]

Well, you should.

[A]

What were they? What were they burning? I know I'm very well aware of that. So then get rid of all the shit. You just. I'm a free speech. Absolute. Well, I mean, it's okay to burn books. Fuck you. You were just about to say, it's not okay to burn books. And then he was like, well, the Nazis burned gay books. And he was like, well, yeah, obviously you burn gay books. What are you crazy?

[B]

I mean, like, these folks, like, Tucker will go on and on about how, like, moderate Democrats are authoritarians, and he. Milo sitting there telling him I am an authoritarian, and he won't even engage with it. Won't even like. It's. It's. It's bullshit.

[A]

None of. None of what we say have. Has meeting. Yeah. All we're doing is making noises at each other, and at the end of it, I hope you buy something and hate gay people. Yep.

[B]

So we're going to wrap this up here. But as it comes to the close.

There is a point that Milo wants to. To make.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

About his regrets in life. And I think that there is a feeling that I. I think a lot of people have always had about Milo, and that is that he was anti gay all along.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even when he was a flamboyant gay man, he was perpetuating politics and ideas that were detrimental to gay people. It was very clear his position.

Were disadvantageous to anyone in the LGBTQ community.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And I think it's really interesting to hear him discuss his regrets, because I think his actual regret is that people didn't get that he was trying to stop people from being gay.

[C]

When you look back on the life that you led 10 years ago, how do you feel?

[D]

I feel ashamed.

I feel embarrassed and disgusted by the things I did, but I feel ashamed.

Particularly about 10 years ago, about how many people I thought I was laying it on thick with this sort of like Dame Edna Everidge kind of hyacinth bouquet performance on stage. And I realized people weren't picking up the layers, maybe. And every talk I ever gave in the Q and A, I said, if I could not be gay, I would push that button, you know? And nobody ever like that, never registered with people all that they. Why, I don't know. All they got was being gay is okay now and being right wing. Being gay and right wings okay. And I know that I pushed that button with the left to annoy them and. Because it was absurd at that time, but people never got the message.

[B]

I know that I said that being gay and right wing is okay because it made the people on the left angry. But my message was really that being gay and right wing isn't okay. I wanted them to kill me. I wanted this to be a situation where. Where everyone like me was destroyed and no one got it. No one got the irony of the over the top character that I was doing.

[A]

I mean, okay, if that's your pitch, I would say rewrite it. Come back with something better.

[B]

No. I don't know. I don't know if this is really how he viewed anything, but I think it is accurate. I mean, in terms of like, he's assessing his career in a way that is fairly accurate. Like he was somebody who was aggressively anti gay.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Even as a gay person.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

He was a cartoon character of a flamboyant gay person.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

He called his tour the dangerous F. You know, like this is. It's ridiculous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it could be seen as a way of like, don't. Don't accept people like me. I am trying to make myself so noxious and so offensive to people sensibilities. I married a black guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, don't accept this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if I would believe that that was intentionally how he was running his career. But descriptively, if that's how he wants to salvage things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's as good an angle as any.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I spoke.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

If.

[A]

If his point is essentially, this is what I have to do to now. Right. I have to say all of these things now in order to salvage what I've got, then it's not saying like, I wish I hadn't done anything I did other than the thing that made me get here now, which was go a little too overboard by saying that a 13 year old should a priest or whatever.

[B]

And the sex abuse victims are whining.

[A]

Right, right, right, right, right. I went too far too there. I would still otherwise be totally happy.

[B]

I would have refined the act a little bit.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I would have amped up the irony.

[A]

And maybe like, isn't that what we're really talking about? We're really talking about a guy who's like, man, if I had pulled it back a hair, I would be having the best life.

[B]

If my show hadn't been canceled, season five would have been great. Yep. Cool, man.

[A]

Yep. Absolutely.

[B]

So. But now since he has been canceled.

[A]

Canceled.

[B]

He is in a position where he feels like it's his responsibility to explain to everyone that he was trying to get you to hate gay people all along. Sure.

[D]

And I think now I have a duty now I have a responsibility to others because of because the message didn't land like I was. I was. I was not intending to give birth to this huge generation of gay Republicans who now just. I think it's openly, like, openly fine to traffic in babies and to be a gay Republican. And I feel a great deal of responsibility for that. I hate myself for that a little bit.

[A]

Join the club.

[C]

Milo Yiannopoulos. Thank you for everything you said. Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate it.

[D]

Thanks.

[B]

What a sign off, honesty.

[A]

Fuck me.

[B]

What a sign off. I hate myself for that. Right, Milo? Thanks for your honesty, Milo.

[A]

Let's get the fuck of the out. That's a good way to end. If you hate gay people, that's a great way to. That's your testimony. Your testimony is I hate myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For being gay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what Tucker wants.

[B]

Yeah. And I was always trying to get people to hate gay people. And, you know, hey, we're just getting to the real stuff now.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I just, I find. I find this, you know, it's an unfortunate mixture of like really toxic shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it's also just intolerable to listen to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that it's boring. The ideas aren't interesting. The person is clearly wrestling with a lot of shit that they haven't figured out yet. And he's a bore. Like, he just rambles on in these, these, these long. He thinks they're witty rambles and they're just not. They're just. Oh, God, it's just the worst.

[A]

That's brutal.

[B]

I feel like. I feel like you might have gotten some superpowers.

[A]

I grew a sixth toe on my left foot.

[B]

We can't prove that because you got your shoe on.

[A]

I know, it's. I can feel it, though. I'm going to have trouble balancing on my way out of here to relearn how to walk.

[B]

Well, every, every superpower is a blessing. So you'll find your way to use.

[A]

I assume I'll be able to hang from a tree with just my left leg.

[B]

Oh, you'll turn into a gibbon.

[A]

That's my, that's my goal now is I'm going to do some hanging from a tree and then I could. I could do some sit ups, you know, but without having to have one of those things that hangs on your door.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I'm happy for you.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's the way to go.

[B]

And that's Milo's enduring legacy. You have feet. Hands.

[A]

I have. I have a foot. Left hand.

[B]

So I said at the beginning of this episode, I didn't want to do this and I stand by that. I don't want to do this. I don't want to have done this. And I think it sucks. And.

It really is notable only in as much as like, this is what Tucker's putting out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, this is not.

Mild.

[A]

This is what you should have heard about from your crazy friend who's plugged into all the weird stuff. This shouldn't be something where you're like, oh, yeah, millions upon millions upon millions of people. Listen.

[B]

Yeah. Possibly one of the biggest talk show hosts in the world and the hero of the. The right wing guy who's friends with the President is doing this kind of a fucking show. It's. It's so explicit and overtly homophobic. It's disgusting. It traffics in lies and misinformation and it's bad. It's boring. It's not funny.

[A]

It's not even funny. It's not even fun. No, it's not even. At the very least, this is the problem. If you're gonna run the world with hatred and shit, you should at least have fun while doing it.

[B]

Well, it's like 2016, Milo. Yeah, he was having fun. Yeah, 2016, Alex was having fun.

[A]

You know, that is the weird thing about monkey's paw wishes. You don't get exactly what you wish for. And it turns out you really should have wished for something else.

[B]

Yeah. Now who's having fun, Trump?

[A]

No one.

[B]

No. Roger.

[A]

Is Trump even having fun?

[B]

Probably.

[A]

I mean, I guess a lot of money. Roger's not even really having fun. He doesn't get to go on and be having fun. Tucker is clearly having fun. Yeah, he is the one who's having fun. Yeah, that's true.

[B]

Oh well. So we'll be back for another episode to see some other awful. But until then, we have a website.

[A]

Indeed we do. It's knowledge Fight dot com.

[B]

Yep, we'll be back. But until then. I'm Neo. I'm Leo. I'm DZX Clark. I am the mysterious Professor.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And now here comes the Sex robots.

[B]

Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.

[C]

Thanks.

[B]

Watching for. For holding.

[A]

Hello Alex. I'm a first time caller.

[D]

I'm a huge fan.

[A]

I love your work.

[B]

I love you.