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- [00:01]
Ralph Nader
A preacher, a teacher. And the other became a car, a car skidding into the rain, making the last little one to save one more. Life goes on in America. A young girl tosses a corn in the wish and whale. She hopes for a heaven, while for her the justice fell.
- [00:26]
Chuck Collins
You're listening to KPFK, 90.7 FM, Los Angeles.
- [00:30]
Ralph Nader
This is Reverend Dr. William J. Barber and we are listening to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Stand up. Stand up. You've been sitting way too long.
- [00:45]
Steve Skrovan
Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. My name is Steve Scrovan, along with my co host, David Feldman. Hello, David. Hello, Steve. And our producer, Hannah Feldman. Hello, Hannah.
- [00:55]
Sarah Moskowitz
Hello, Steve.
- [00:56]
Steve Skrovan
And the man of the hour, Ralph Nader. Hello, Ralph.
- [01:00]
Ralph Nader
Hello. I'm busy rereading my book, Civic Self Respect.
- [01:04]
Steve Skrovan
Very good. But first up on this program we welcome back Chuck Collins, one of our favorite traders to his class. Chuck is the heir to the Oscar Mayer fortune, who is also a founding member of the Patriotic Millionaires. We've had a number of the Patriotic Millionaires on the program before, including Eric Erica Payne and Morris Pearl. Patriotic Millionaires is an organization of wealthy Americans fighting for a fair tax system, a livable wage for every working American, and equal access to political power. Today we'll speak to Chuck Collins about his agenda for reform as outlined in his new book, Burned by How Concentrated wealth and Power Are Ruining Our Lives and Planet. Next up, we are joined by Sara Moskowitz, the executive director of Citizens Utility Board of Illinois. The concept of the Citizens Utility Board was actually the brainchild of our very own Ralph Nader, who wanted to create a citizens organization that would force the government to be more responsive to the needs of their communities with regards to utilities like electricity, gas and telecommunications. The Citizens Utility Board, also known as cub, is a non profit, nonpartisan group with the mission to fight for the rights of consumers. Ralph will talk to Sara Moskowitz about the rising electrical costs from data centers in Illinois and elsewhere around the country, what is causing rates to spike for consumers, and what Illinois CUB is doing about it. As always, somewhere in the middle. We'll check in with our indispensable corporate crime reporter, Russell Mokhiber. But first, how can we save the world from billionaires?
- [02:38]
Alan Minsky
David Chuck Collins directs the Charity Reform Initiative at the Institute for Policy Studies, where he Also co edits inequality.org Mr. Collins co founded the Patriotic Millionaires and United for a Fair Economy and he is the author of Born on Third Base and the Wealth How Billionaires Pay Millions to High Trillions and His latest, Burned by Billionaires How Concentrated wealth and Power Are Ruining Our Lives and Planet. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour.
- [03:12]
Chuck Collins
Chuck Collins, thank you for having me.
- [03:16]
Ralph Nader
Well, the first thing you want to know about Chuck Collins, listeners is he's the real thing. When he was in his 20s, he was an heir to the Oscar Meyer fortune and he gave his money away and he's never stopped since in advocating against exploitation, which is euphemistically called inequality in our current discussions about concentration of wealth and power. Let me start this way, Chuck. Your book Burned by Billionaires How Concentrated wealth and Power Are Ruining Our Lives and Planet is not just about piled up greed because of the political, economic and other forms of power of the super rich. But you make a connection that's rarely made, which is it's harming people's daily lives, whether it's their minimum wage, whether it's their environmental safety, whether it's their income security, whether it's their opportunities in life. There's a direct connection here between what the billionaires extract from our political economy and our lawmakers and how little is given back by people who have actually earned far more than they are receiving, both on return on labor and return on their savings. Your book emphasizes that these billionaires didn't do it on their own. And you define the billionaires as the top 1/10 of 1% of wealthy in the country. They relied on public services, public works, government research and development, giveaways of invention by the National Institutes of Health, the Department of Defense, NASA, the corporations, and a whole host of other educational services for the entrepreneurs. As Warren Buffett said, in the US he won the genetic lottery. He was lucky. He said he was born in the US Instead of Bangladesh so he could take advantage of all the public infrastructure and services that gave him that lift. So you have chapter after chapter on how billionaires burn, how the wealth of you impoverish the many. In chapter four, billions are trashing the planet. That's easy. They pushing and they're part of the oil, gas, coal, nuclear industries. And with Trump deliberately trying now to undermine and destroy the solar and wind power industry so far as they can, the second chapter is billionaires are making you pay higher taxes. Well, when they get away with it, you, you either get less public services from the government or there are higher deficits or they have to tax you more or all the above. The next chapter, billionaires are wrecking the housing market. That's pretty easy to document, especially now where they have these syndicates that reach into small Towns all over the country and buy up homes and try to flip them or otherwise do things that are very disadvantageous for people who want to get affordable housing.
- [06:18]
Chuck Collins
You know, I got my start as a tenant organizer working with tenants in mobile home parks, trying to help them organize to buy their mobile home parks. And we were very successful. There's hundreds of resident owned mobile home cooperatives. But one of these billionaire investors said, oh, I love buying mobile home parks. They're like buying the Waffle House where the customers are chained to the booths. So that's a lot of how these investors are looking. They're looking where can they squeeze people and workers a little bit harder. So that's part of that supercharging the housing crisis. But yeah, go on.
- [06:50]
Ralph Nader
Yeah, I'm glad you gave that. Yeah, we're almost done. Listeners. Billionaires are supercharging the racial economic divide. That's not hard to document. You know, the poor pay more, the poor are often minorities. The poor are overcharged by companies representing or owned by the billionaires. The next billionaires are bad for your health. Well, you know, the opposed pollution control systems, worker safety and health places where millions of Americans work. And they have fought a universal health insurance which would, as in Canada, have better health outcomes as well as be much less expensive because it's a government provided health care system. Everybody in, nobody out. And then billionaires are stealing your vote and voice. It's political corruption how they manipulate elections and parties and they have corporate consultants steering the two major parties. And then the last one is four other ways that billionaires are messing with your life. So this is a short book, listen, it's very readable. So I go through these and I'm saying, well, Chuck, what's the reform here? And you didn't disappoint me. You had an agenda to reduce billionaire power and improve our lives. And this is where I want you to just summarize as I give you the sections of your agenda. And one of them is very, very basic. Provide a guaranteed minimum income, which Richard Nixon proposed to the US Congress, no less, which couldn't agree on the numbers and turned it down. A conservative corporate Republican president. What is the universal basic income?
- [08:33]
Chuck Collins
Well, I think it's the basic, the idea that there's a floor and there's an income floor and there's a minimum income. And as more and more people lose their jobs to AI and other technologies, this is a way that you say, well, at least there's a minimum floor. A universal basic income. It could be 10,000 a year would make a huge difference across the board. For, you know, think of all the households that have no financial reserves at all.
- [08:59]
Ralph Nader
Some conservative economists have supported that. Milton Friedman, for example, raised the minimum wage to a living wage. Give us numbers here.
- [09:07]
Chuck Collins
Well, you know, I think at this point the candidate for mayor of New York talked about 30 by 2030, $30 an hour by 2030, something that a big part of the mess we're in is 40 years of worker productivity gains were hoovered up to the investor class, the billionaire class. So wages have stayed flat or fallen for a lot of workers. So yeah, creating a substantially higher minimum wage that would bump up wages up across the board.
- [09:37]
Ralph Nader
And what is it now federally?
- [09:39]
Chuck Collins
Seven and a quarter, $7.25. And there's probably a dozen states where that is also some states have higher state minimum wages, but the tip minimum wage stayed at $2.37 as long as I can remember.
- [09:56]
Ralph Nader
Another way to abolish poverty, as we know in the United States and as they don't know it in Western Europe, is to provide true universal health care.
- [10:06]
Chuck Collins
Yeah, I just think there's a number of examples of how we could create a decency floor that many societies have, including obviously Canada, that you can't fall below those levels. Same with education, access to education. These are kind of universal opportunity programs that good societies maintain. You raise the floor and you create a level playing field. But the reality is we're not going to get any of those if we don't address this concentration of wealth and power which is essentially blocking us from moving toward these reforms we're talking about.
- [10:42]
Ralph Nader
Let's look about the notorious Taft Hartley act of 1947, the most anti labor law in the western world. You say strengthen the right to organize and basic labor standards and protection.
- [10:55]
Chuck Collins
Yeah, absolutely. The rules right now are so stacked against workers, the rules governing organizing and unions. But you know, there's also this burst of energy and a lot of younger people and there's this whole tech sector of people working in technology that are isolated and unrepresented. That's one of the cutting edge areas for organizing and unionization. And we just need a countervailing power to the power of the wealthy and organized workers is one of those places. The loss of labor organized percentage of workers organized in a union in this country is one of the huge reasons why we're in this extreme inequality moment.
- [11:31]
Ralph Nader
Well, the number of workers who are organized in the US is as a percentage of overall workforce, by far the lowest in the western world. What is it now the public workers and the private workforce, well, it was.
- [11:45]
Chuck Collins
33% in the mid-50s, but now we're under 10%. And if you take out public employees, you're down to 5 or 6%.
- [11:53]
Ralph Nader
The other agenda reform you have was ensconced in the 1946 Full Employment act and not very radical. It's called provide government employment as a last resort. What are you talking about there?
- [12:06]
Chuck Collins
Well, people think of like during the Depression, the Works Project Administration, but the idea that we should be a pro work society. There's plenty of work to be done. If it's not happening in the private sector, Let us create a robust public jobs program where government job is the employment of last resort. If the economy goes into a recession, people shift over and do the public works that our communities desperately need.
- [12:32]
Ralph Nader
One of my favorite reforms in your book, Burned by Billionaires, is reducing money's distorting influence in politics. That comes in almost 85, 90%. Even Republicans want campaign finance reform. Republican voters. That is unlike their misrepresentatives in Congress. But in that section in your book on page 184, you have one of my favorites, you say this quote, corporations should be prohibited from any participation in our democratic systems, including elections and bankrolling candidates, political parties, party conventions and advertising aimed at influencing the outcome of elections and legislation. End quote. I know what the answer is, but I think the listeners would want to hear from you. Why are you banning corporations from elections?
- [13:24]
Chuck Collins
Well, they're not people that shouldn't have the power that they do to capture our political system. So, yeah, an outright ban on corporate donations. And I'm worried to see all the energy that goes into campaign finance reform because we've all lived through a number of efforts on that front, and in the end, concentrated wealth and power sort of subverts and it's like water running down a mountain, just going to go around whatever barriers we put up to try to protect democracy. So dealing with corporations as another sort of backdoor way of wealthy people influencing our political system is absolutely critical.
- [14:02]
Ralph Nader
In other words, you're saying corporations are not people, they're artificial entities and elections should be reserved for real people, which of course is something we've been pressing for decades and little interest in Congress on that one. You want to get rid of pull down trade agreements. You want to change the rules for international trade and investment. Can you elaborate that?
- [14:24]
Chuck Collins
Well, just like one of the forces fueling our inequalities are trade agreements that have weakened worker rights and pitted countries against each other. In a race to the bottom in terms of labor and environmental standards. So we need to reverse that. We need to raise labor and environmental standards. And through the international treaty process, the US could play that role. A lot of countries could play that role. It's absolutely how to have global trade without it fueling even greater inequality.
- [14:53]
Ralph Nader
You also want to restore progressive income taxes and have tax on wealth. The only tax on wealth now, other than the estate tax, which is like Swiss cheese, is taxing homes, for example, or buildings. Give us your take on progressive income tax restoration.
- [15:10]
Chuck Collins
Yeah, I mean, I would say there's sort of three pieces. One is putting in the very top progressive income tax rates, the marginal income tax rates, high incomes like we had during the 1950s and early 60s. You had income over very high levels, were taxed at progressively high rates, up to 90% at one point, and then restoring the power of the wealth transfer tax, the inheritance tax, and then finally an annual wealth tax. And this is, I think there's growing interest in this because people see that this is not just about billionaire consumption, it's about power. And if we want to protect democracy against oligarchic power, we need to put a brake on it. The voters of California this year will hopefully get a chance to vote on an Emergency wealth tax, a 5% tax on billionaires in the state of California to fund the healthcare cost gaps that many people are experiencing. So that's a good example. So we need pretty much all three of those, progressive income tax, inheritance tax, and an annual wealth tax to sort of slow and reverse these concentrations of wealth and power.
- [16:16]
Ralph Nader
In another very popular reform or initiative, you want to see state public banks established and a national infrastructure bank. And of course, those of us who support this always point to North Dakota, conservative Republican state that since 1919 or so has had a state public bank, never had any corruption like the New York banks. It's very, very solid, stable, and if you tried to eliminate that bank, you'd have a massive opposition from Republicans and Democrats. In the state of North Dakota. Could you describe why are state public banks needed?
- [16:56]
Chuck Collins
Well, a sense, it's another reminder this is the people's money. Both state governments and local governments have funds invested in banks, and individuals could also move their money to a public bank. So in a lot of states, people are fighting the banking industry to establish public banks. But as you said at the outset, these are incredibly popular reforms taxing the wealthy. 75% believe that the billionaires are not paying their fair share and should pay wealth taxes. State level public banking Very popular. People understand that the private banks have become predatory and that where can people and local governments and nonprofits park their money and invest it in a way that going to be reinvested in our communities. It's a very popular post, partisan, transpartisan.
- [17:43]
Ralph Nader
Agenda and stop paying those huge fees to Wall street investment firms.
- [17:49]
Chuck Collins
I think people understand there's like an extraction happening, that this, our local communities, our banks, our money, all this money is flowing upward. That's one of the things these big private equity funds are doing. They're just these pools of capital trying to squeeze more out of the real economy, the healthy economy. And so establishing public banks, taxing wealth, walling off and saying hospitals should not be owned by private equity firms, basically saying there are parts of our society and economy that should not be extracted from as a for profit mechanism. So building up and buffering more and more of our society and protecting it from the wealth extractors.
- [18:29]
Ralph Nader
You go very deep structurally on page 190. When you want to have federal charters for global or transnational corporations, where you change the nature of the compact between corporations and the people because investors do not create corporations. That's a misreading. That's part of the false narrative. Corporations are created by state government. Some federal government corporations like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, mostly state governments. And Delaware and Nevada, among other states, have lowered the bar so much that a lot of the big corporations go to Delaware, Nevada and now maybe Texas. What would a federal charter, which is proposed but rarely discussed afterwards by Senator Elizabeth Warren when she's running For President in 2020, what changes would federal charters have on these giant corporations?
- [19:24]
Chuck Collins
Yeah, I mean corporations are allowed to exist by we the people through the state charters. In states like Delaware and Nevada, they're kind of abused in a sense. Delaware is now the home of the anonymous shell company. Almost all global transnational companies incorporate in Delaware because there's so little requirements. But I think we could make the pretty strong case that if you have a substantial enterprise that operates across state lines, so a lot of small businesses, this isn't going to apply to them, or you are engaged in international trade, you should have a charter. We should essentially rewire corporate governance to say, yeah, you're a large global corporation, there should be greater transparency. We should know what your tax rates are, we should know who's governing you, who owns you, we should know about major transactions. All these are in the wider public interest. And so there's a reason for this whole idea of chartering at the federal level. When corporations are above A certain size.
- [20:23]
Ralph Nader
Would you favor a full public disclosure of all corporate tax returns? That used to be the case in the state of Wisconsin at one time.
- [20:31]
Chuck Collins
That's right. You know, I think we should move toward corporate transparency at a lot of levels because right now they love that secretive system and they states in other countries off each other in that race to who's going to pay as little as possible or worse, who's going to collect subsidies from different states and governments. So we the people should know it's in the public interest. Same with real estate. Real estate should not be anonymous. You should know who's buying the building next to you.
- [20:58]
Ralph Nader
You want to have debt free higher education.
- [21:01]
Chuck Collins
You know, Bill Gates senior talked about let's tax inheritances at a high level above 20 million, tax very steeply and invested in a fund that provides debt free education for anybody who does two years of national service, community service, military service. You do your community service, you get a debt free higher education or job training. And he kind of believed that that would both reduce inequality, open opportunity and kind of reweave the social fabric, that people would have a connection to the communities through doing work of service, working in a school, working in a national park, serving in the national Guard. Those are all things and anybody who does that should no longer have to pay for higher education.
- [21:44]
Ralph Nader
I'm looking at another one of your reforms. It reminded me of the Canadian saying by tax reformers in Canada which said, let's tax what we burn before we tax what we earn. So you want a pollution tax? You want to elaborate that?
- [21:59]
Chuck Collins
Absolutely. I mean, I think part of how we move forward in the shorter term isn't necessarily on federal tax policies, but some states and localities, for instance, we could tax private jet fuel. Private jets don't pay anywhere near the real costs of their use of the airspace. Commercial travelers and taxpayers subsidize private jets as Senator Markey proposed. Increase private jet fuel by nine times and invest some of that in green infrastructure or tax luxury real estate transfers and invest in affordable housing. So there's tax the harms, tax the harmful disruptive behaviors and take that revenue and invest it in the solution. So yeah, tax extreme emissions in terms of oil, gas and coal and move that toward green infrastructure, which is another.
- [22:47]
Ralph Nader
Way of developing better confrontation to global warming and climate violence. Of course, in your conclusion you mentioned There are about 2,700 global billionaires and growing rapidly. The number of billionaires and billionaire wealth increased during the COVID epidemic. These billionaires have rigged the system where they make money out of disasters. Naomi Klein made this point in her book Disaster Capitalism, for example, Bill Gates became much richer, according to your book, during the few years of the COVID epidemic. I think listeners, you're entitled to ask groups like ours, how often do we get together and plan? How often do we read each other's reports? How often do we stay in touch person to person so we can mount the kind of effort that Heritage foundation and Cato Institute successfully mount with their Republican supporters on Capitol Hill. Look at the 900 page Project 2025 blueprint by Heritage foundation to the blueprint for a corporate fascist state, by the way. And the the Trumpsters picked it up like it was a catechism for what they had to do since Trump became president. Now let's say the tables are turned and we're going to get a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress. Are we ready with a blueprint? Are we organized? I don't think we are. And I think your book is a big step forward in that pursuit of preparedness so we don't get flat footed and we get the Democrats stumbling in to power due to the worst Republican party in history handing the elections to them in 2026. And then they turn around and they have celebrations with their corporate conflicted consultants to whom they have delegated almost everything in their campaigns from fundraising to strategy to language to taboos and to the candidate's schedule like campaigning with Liz Cheney by Kamala Harris instead of the most popular politician in the United States, Bernie Sanders. Well, thank you very much, Chuck Collins. We've been talking with Chuck Collins, the real thing when it comes to advocating for the people of our country. He's the author of a new book called Burned by How Concentrated wealth and Power Are Ruining Our Lives and and Planet. Thank you very much, Chuck Collins.
- [25:18]
Chuck Collins
Thanks, Ralph.
- [25:19]
Steve Skrovan
We've been speaking with Chuck Collins. We will link to his work@ralphnaderradiohour.com up next, why are we paying Google's electric bill? But first, let's check in with our corporate crime reporter Russell Mulcaiber from the.
- [25:32]
Alan Minsky
National Press building in Washington, D.C. this is your corporate crime report on MORNING minute for Friday, December 12th, 2025. I'm Russell Mulkhyber. The Trump administration last week let slave Southwest Airlines off the hook for the remaining government payments of a record 140 million dollar fine brought by the Department of Transportation after the airline's software meltdown stranded 2 million customers over Christmas three years ago. That's according to report in the lever the Department of Transportation posted A notice relieving Southwest Airlines from making its final eleven million dollar payment for significantly improving its on time performance. The department said the outstanding $11 million was nearly a third of the total $35 million fine that Southwest owed to the government. Thirty times larger than any previous Transportation Department penalty for consumer protection violations. For the corporate crime reporter, I'm Russell Mulcyber.
- [26:31]
Steve Skrovan
Thank you, Russell. Hey, this is Steve Scrovin, co host of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. We're here with Alan Minsky. We're in the fun drive and Alan, tell us about what's going on there.
- [26:43]
Alan Minsky
Yeah, of course we're asking you to donate right now because we are the home station of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour which we consider to be one of the greatest weekly shows produced in, in political media anywhere in the world and of course anywhere in the country. It's insights into what is going on. And this, this country that's gone so far off the rails and yet remains the dominant nation in the global system is impacting everybody around the globe. And as a thank you gifts, we have the work of frequent guests of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour, Chris Hedges. His insights both on global considerations with the focus on Israel and Gaza and Palestine and also in the speeches that are collected, incredible insights into American society and politics as well. So for a hundred dollar pledge of support to KPFK and the Ralph Nader radio hour at 818-985-5735. That number is 818 985-PFK. For $100 pledges of support you can receive the Chris Hedges digital speech collection. Let's see. 1, 2, 3, 45678. I think it's more than eight, at least eight speeches. Full length speeches from. Fantastic order, great writer, but a really fantastic order. Chris Hedges. I've been mesmerized by his speeches for years. $100 pledge of support for just an amazing collection of speeches. Again on the array of subjects. America, the World War, the Moral Imperative to Revolt, how to Oppose Fascism. All of it's there from Pris Edges and his brand new books available for $120 donation. It's called A Genocide Foretold. Reporting on survival and resistance in occupied Palestine. That's $120 pledge. And you get the book plus the speeches which includes Chris's speech from May of 25th on the brand new book. So collection of speeches plus the book, not $220. For the reduced donation of just $200 to KPFK, we'll send you both at 8189-8557-3581-8985. KPFK. Let's keep those phones ringing, folks. Right now. Back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour.
- [28:42]
Steve Skrovan
Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. I'm Steve Scrovan along with David Feldman, Hannah and Ralph. Our next guest is fighting for the rights of Illinois energy consumers.
- [28:51]
Alan Minsky
DAVID Sarah Moskowitz is executive director of the Citizens Utility Board, a nonprofit, nonpartisan group with the mission to fight for the rights of customers of investor owned electric, gas and telecom utilities across Illinois. Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Sara Moskowitz, thanks so much for having me.
- [29:14]
Ralph Nader
Welcome indeed, Sarah, because one of the purposes of our interview is to get more people in other states confronting staggering increases in electricity to urge their state legislators to pass legislation allowing consumers to easily band together in a nonprofit group and advocate for residential utility users, electricity, gas, water, right across the board. And we have a model bill that we could send people from Maine to Arizona and Alaska to Florida to get this underway. So please describe Illinois. Cub.
- [29:56]
Sarah Moskowitz
We were created essentially to serve as a voice for ratepayers in these Illinois Commerce Commission rate cases whereby the utilities kind of get approval to pass costs onto their customers. And our creation was born out of a widespread dissatisfaction and real rage against especially the electric utilities resulting from mismanagement of their nuclear fleet. And so the thinking was that the status quo checks and balances on utility power and regulatory capture were not sufficient. And it was time to create a standalone, nonpartisan, non governmental body to be a consumer voice. And I'm not sure that anyone really expected our organization to survive. We were stood up with a million dollar loan from the state of Illinois that we had to pay back after a year with interest. And in that time we were able to recruit a bunch of individual members and that got us off the ground. And we've been going ever since. It's been quite something. I have been at CUB for a couple of decades and when I first started working at cub, the biggest issue was landline telephone phone service. Now we're back on problems with spiraling electric rates and it's really been a wild ride. We're an odd organization. I think you talk to a lot of folks in Illinois, they actually think that we are part of state government and assume that we get some kind of state budget, but we do not. I have to fundraise. We have, depending on how you count, we have about, I'd say 30,000 members across the state of Illinois. Many more of Those receive our emails and interact with us at our in person events and online through our website and social media. And of course we have a really great comms outfit. So we work for everybody in the state of Illinois regardless of whether they are dues paying members or not.
- [31:58]
Ralph Nader
What is the average contribution?
- [32:00]
Sarah Moskowitz
Oh boy, I think the average is probably about 20, $25 or so. But you know you can join Cub for $10 if you want a year and we never turn anybody away. We have a hotline that folks can call if they have questions and complaints about their utilities and we can get in touch with the higher office at most of the company is on folks behalf and we're not going to ask first, you know, have you donated? Are you a member? We'll help anybody.
- [32:24]
Ralph Nader
And listeners should know the Illinois CUB has used the tools of litigation, lobbying, public education, complaint handling and negotiating directly with giant utilities in the state of Illinois. One I remember in particular I think it was in the early 1990s. You caught Commonwealth Edison overcharging residential ratepayers and small businesses and they had to refund $1.3 billion to families in northern Illinois. You didn't have to go to court. You had them nailed violating the regulations. Tell us what the website is before we extend the conversation broader around the country. People want to get more information about Illinois CUB from other states to put bills in state legislatures. We'll discuss that in a moment. Listeners or the people in Illinois want to find out more about Illinois Cub. What's the website?
- [33:21]
Sarah Moskowitz
Check us out@citizensutilityboard.org all spelled out. Our fantastic comms team updates that website just about every single day. And we have everything you ever wanted to know and more about your utility bills, how to decode them, what the regulations are, what your rights are and a whole lot more besides. Citizensutilityboard.org and listeners should know this is.
- [33:44]
Ralph Nader
A private nonprofit consumer group funded voluntarily by donations by anybody who wants to help it. And it's been around for many years and we want to expand this model in states throughout the country. The same problems, electricity rates going sky high, telephone companies trying to overcharge their customers, especially those with landlines because they want to get rid of landlines. And the state regulators just haven't been doing the job that they have to. Let's go to the next step. Tell us the price increasing situation in electricity in Illinois and around the country and what the role of the data centers are. You know almost every day there are articles on the data centers. I'll bet you 90 out of 100 people in this country don't even know what they are, why they are being built in state after state, and what the controversies are to deal with their increased demand for electricity's increasing the electric bill for ordinary consumers. Tell us about this situation.
- [34:50]
Sarah Moskowitz
Oh yeah, data centers are the hot topic right now. About a year and a half ago, the chairman of the Illinois Commerce Commission would talk about the data center drinking game. You know, whenever anybody brought up data centers drink. But at this point, I think we'd all be dead. And if we were actually playing that game, because it's really taken off and I think that's a good thing. The extent to which the data center electric demand issue has really entered the public discourse is a good thing, because I think people need to understand what these companies, which are some of the richest companies in the world, what kind of impact they are having on our electric bills. Essentially, thanks to increases in energy efficiency and building envelope and lighting efficiency, we have been in enjoying a couple of decades of flat load growth, flat demand for electricity. Suddenly data centers are entering the scene. And especially these centers that process AI learning which use immense amount of electricity, coming on and demanding all of this electricity. And it's really throwing off the supply demand balance in our power markets right now. And this is particularly concerning in a state. Well, in all states. In Illinois, it's tricky because we are a restructured state, meaning that power generation isn't regulated at the state level. We have kind of given up that responsibility to these wholesale markets which were not built for this kind of demand growth. And so you have these data centers putting in requests for power equaling the size of a city. One data center can use amount of electricity as a city and not to mention how much water they use for the cooling. And so this throws off our supply demand and suddenly all of this new generation apparently needs to be built now to feed these behemoths. And who's going to pay for that? The problem is, under our traditional form of rate making, you can socialize the costs of that generation and then the data centers will help pay it off over time with that increased usage that they represent. But the big problem here is that we don't know how many of those data centers are actually going to show up. We've heard from tech giants like Google that they might be intending to build one data center, and then they shop that data center around in different power jurisdictions. They're only going to build one. But it's showing up in the load predictions across several different utilities. Which is basically triggering the signal that we need to build all this new generation. But not all that demand is going to show up. And so if we build all this generation and it's for stuff that doesn't show up, regular consumers like you and me are going to be left holding the bag. So it's a really complicated issue. And I think that the way our power system is regulated wasn't really set up for these kinds of challenges. You quickly run into questions about jurisdictional matters between what's state level, what's federal? States do things differently. So federalism is making it really sticky to wade through all this stuff. Meanwhile, you have these big tech giants threatening legislators, saying, well, if you don't give us everything we want, we're going to go to the next state over. And so it really becomes in state capitals, I fear, a race to the bottom. All these states falling all over.
- [38:23]
Ralph Nader
Let's back up here a minute.
- [38:24]
Sarah Moskowitz
Sure.
- [38:25]
Ralph Nader
The rate increases in some states are 20%. In New Jersey is 19% over the year prior. These are pretty serious rate increases. They show no signs of stopping. But let's back up here and assume no knowledge by some of our listeners about data centers. So here I want to ask you very specifically, and I want you to name companies. What is a data center? Why is it needed in our economy? What's the nature of the data? And what kind of energy does it use? And who are the companies building them?
- [39:00]
Sarah Moskowitz
Yeah, So a data center is a facility that contains a vast series of networked computer servers that basically act as kind of like the brain for storing and processing and distributing vast amounts of digital data. So it supplies everything like your emails, your streaming services, Netflix. But what really has set these guys over the top in terms of power usage is AI and cloud computing that uses a lot of electricity. So these are big facilities. They look like big warehouses. We have a bunch here in Illinois. I'm from Northern Virginia. There's a bunch there. And these big box. These big boxes, and they're just humming and they're giving off a lot of heat because they're using vast amounts of electricity to power all of these computer banks. And some of them are built by these developers that lease out space in the data center to different tech companies. Others are developed by these giant tech companies like Google or Meta or Amazon, what have you.
- [40:14]
Ralph Nader
Well, if I was a listener, I'd want an answer to the following question. Why did these data centers suddenly descend on us without broad public hearings and public education? And give me specific examples of what this data is and how important it is for a functioning economy, or is it pretty redundant? Does it invade privacy? Let's go to the core of what these data centers are all about, because they show no signs of stopping their exponential growth. There's a lot of local opposition in Virginia, for example, and around the country to building these giant data centers because of the noise, the contamination of the water and other detractors of a proper environment where people are living, working and raising their families. Can you answer that question exactly what is this data? And 10 years from now, is there ever going to be an end to its exponential growth?
- [41:17]
Sarah Moskowitz
I think so. I think so. You're hearing a lot more talk around the data center development boom as being something of a bubble. And I think that's part of the issue is that there's all this rush to invest and connect these guys. But I think people are starting to get wise that a lot of this is probably just hype. And as for what is being processed in the data centers, I think that's part of the problem is it's kind of a mystery. I think the data centers, when they show up in at least my state capital, Springfield, Illinois, they say that they are necessary for things like national security and keeping our society safe. And okay, fine, maybe some of it is, but what is that actually about is about surveillance state. It could be. And then meanwhile, how much of the data center is just providing cat videos or letting us play Candy Crush? As I said in a recent op ed, let's not pretend like the Pentagon is using the same data servers as Candy Crush is, guys. And I think that's part of the challenge. In Illinois we have an interesting wrinkle because there is a biometric information privacy statute in place that does call into question what kind of data can pass through these giant centers. But I think we should stay tuned because I'm pretty sure these companies are going to make a push to relax those regulations in Illinois in order to enjoy even more unchecked growth. So, Ralph, it's a good question. I think that's kind of the thing. It's like, who asked for all of this? Who asked for all the AI things to get in our face when we're trying to just go about our daily lives? And is it really needed and is it worth the cost?
- [43:01]
Ralph Nader
Well, listeners, you want to get more information when you have more leisure time about these data centers. It's right on the citizenutilityboard.org website, the illinoiscitizensutilityboard.org and Sarah Moskowitz has recently spoken at length about it on radio and other media. For example, they'll answer the question what are data centers? Second, how much energy do they use? Third, are data centers impacting our electric bills in Illinois? And they give very clear responses here. How much does data center height contribute to higher prices for consumers? What are the environmental impacts of data centers? So what can be done about this? All this is clearly discussed on Illinois citizenutilityboard.org the website is just citizens utility board one word dot org so before we get to the rest of the country, Sarah, I want to ask you about spikes in utility prices. For example, in the Washington, D.C. area, who got a bill for their electric service in June? Let's say it was $100. Suddenly in July, with no other changes other than adding maybe one air conditioning unit, the bill was four times as much, went over 400 and then in August it was even higher. It was closer to 500. And then in September it dropped back to 230 and now it's around 200. Terms of October now you call the utility, you hardly can ever get through. I want to ask what Illinois Cubs doing? So the utilities are more responsive to people who call on the phone or email them. So you go to the People's Council of the District of Columbia and they check out the meters and they don't see any problem. They don't see an answer to the spike. And so they make other inquiries and we still haven't heard from them what the reason for the spike. Now it will go up because July and August are hotter, that's for sure than say June or May. But what's the explanation of a fourfold increase in it's called the summer surge or spike which occurs all over the country?
- [45:26]
Sarah Moskowitz
Well, it depends on which your utility you're looking at and whether it had to do with some kind of rate case outcome at the state or district PUC Public Utility Commission, I'll say this past summer, customers across states ranging from northern Illinois, across Ohio, Pennsylvania into the Mid Atlantic all saw giant price spikes as a result of the independent Regional Transmission Organization's latest capacity auction. And so essentially the supply price for electricity has been subject to the vagaries of the market for a number of states including Illinois and Washington, D.C. and the managers of that auction, we believe, have put their thumb on the scale to the benefit of fossil fuel power generators. And it yielded extraordinarily high prices. And we all suffered from that here in Illinois this past summer alongside record high temperatures. And so we were getting flooded with calls about is this a mistake on my bill? I've never seen the like. And I think it's really hard for folks to get a clear answer on what's going on first. It's hard to even get to someone who answers the phone. And that's part of what we're really proud of here at CUB Illinois is that you can reach a human. You might have to leave a message, but we will call you back and answer your questions and then talk through what's really going on. And sometimes when folks get through to someone at the PUC or at the utility, they might not know what's causing it or they might not really be empowered to talk about it. I know that in Illinois, when you call your utility, they have to be pretty careful about how they phrase things, especially if you're with different energy suppliers. And that's a whole other story. And then it's really esoteric, it's really dense. A lot of our work at CUB is to just help people connect the dots behind the policies that are resulting in these really high bills. It's kind of shrouded in mystery. And I agree, it's dry, it's boring. You don't want to think about it after you've been working all day. And that's why we're here, to keep tabs on all that stuff and help illuminate that for folks. But yeah, there's just a lot and it's a moving target. Things are happening at the state level, things are happening at the federal level. And so when you're looking at your bill, it's kind of the culmination of a whole spectrum of jurisdictions and a whole spectrum of regulators making decisions, each having an impact on what you pay every month in a different way. And it's quite overwhelming.
- [48:11]
Steve Skrovan
Hi, this is Steve Scrovin. It's fun drive time at kpfk and we've got, we've got a great premium for you. And I'm on here with Alan Minsky, our executive producer. Hello, Alan.
- [48:22]
Alan Minsky
Hey, Steve, how you doing?
- [48:24]
Steve Skrovan
Tell the people what we have for them if they give to kpfk, our listener supported station that Ralph Nader Radio has been on for nearly 12 years.
- [48:34]
Alan Minsky
First and foremost, people should just donate at 818-1985-5735 to support the home station of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Without KPFK Radio, there is no Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Without the Ralph Nader Radio Hour once a week, people would not be reminded how off the tracks American society and American politics are and how they should get back on the tracks on what they need to do to bring us back to where we have a society where corporations aren't running over us every day. And how you get American society back on the tracks by having corporate regulation, just having a responsive political system to the needs of the public. And again, you know, the everything that would be so much better than the way things are now. Not a corrupt political class, you know, a prosperous middle class society, the type of thing that Ralph Nader really helped build in America and you know, lift even America, even a sort of more inclusive democratic society than it ever been with Ralph Nader's influence in the 1960s going forward until the neoliberal era set in. And things have been downhill since then. But Ralph Nader understands how this whole system operates just about better than any other person in the world, let alone the country. And we bring him here with the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. And today we have as a thank you gift, first of all, donate at 818-985-5735. But if you want to thank you gift for your donation, we have an incredible package from somebody, a marvelous, marvelous analyst of world, world politics, American politics and society, Chris Hedges, a frequent guest on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. And for a gift of just a donation of just a hundred dollars, you'll get something that I just cannot recommend more, which is the Chris Hedges digital speech collection. A 100 donation. And it has an event that Chris did just this May in 2025 where I had the honor of introducing Chris and then speeches from Chris Hedges From 2024-2022-2020-2018, 2017, all the way back to 2010, folks. And so just amazing speeches. This guy was the kid of a minister and he can preach and he can bring so much intellectuality that is accessible to everybody. I mean, you come away from Chris Hedges speeches just feeling like your mind is supercharged and you're ready to really understand the world around you better than you were. Only 40 minutes before you started listening to the speech, this ended. And you can't wait to get on to the next $100 donation for the Chris Hedges Digital Speech Collection for $120. Brand new book by Chris Hedges, A Genocide Foretold, Reporting on survival and resistance in occupied Palestine. And yes, Chris Hedges was a reporter in Gaza. These are absolutely amazing stories from his experience as a journalist in occupied Palestine. And get both the book and the speech collection. That would be if you pledge at the $200 or more level. 8189-8557-3581-8985. KPFK. That's an amazing thing to get. Chris Hedges, thank you. Gibson, you support Ralph Nader. Your thoughts on the pair of them, Ralph Nader and Chris Hedges? Steve?
- [51:41]
Steve Skrovan
Well, Chris Hedges has been a frequent guest on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour and he has seen it all and he's been there, he's been in field, he has been a war correspondent. His famous book, War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning, is just an incredible literary work, not only as a political polemic, but a literary piece of work. And this is where you go when you really want to know. Unlike Just Like Ralph. I was going to say just like Ralph. He has the historical perspective because he's been there and he can, he can tell you he was telling us about Christian fascism back 15 years ago and now it is coming to pass. So both Ralph and Chris are kind of Cassandras. They're kind of people who are their prophets. They're telling you what you could expect to happen and it's not based on any kind of magic is because they've seen the patterns.
- [52:48]
Alan Minsky
Yeah, no, it's, it's, that is so true about both of them. And by the way, you know, we, we really feel that of all the services that KPFK provides, hosting the Ralph Nader Hour is really essential at this hour of history. What Steve just said is so true. And to bring you Ralph Nader every week here, you know, someone who's obviously was a central figure in American culture, was named by Life magazine one of the hundred most influential Americans of the 20th century. And then because he, he had the courage to stand up to a two party duopoly, the Tweedledee and Tweedledum of that that keeps us locked down in a limited sphere within political choices in our society. Because he had the, the courage to stand up and do that. You know, he got exiled and, and has been thought to be in the wilderness. But so many people have sort of seen through what American society is about and what it's become that if we could just have more and more people listen to Ralph, people will again recognize that he has absolutely and has always been spot on in his analysis of this country, the absolute ridiculous outsized power of corporations in our society and how feeble the political system has become in checking that power as well as the power of the oligarchic super wealthy. So he's absolutely spot on in his analysis today. And Chris Hedges is as well. And by the way, I didn't tell you the sort of content of the other speeches. But a few of them are about Israel and Palestine. But no, they go right into the heart of America. And they also have included in the list of speeches he will talk about overcoming fascism could not be more relevant. The culture of despair in America could not be more relevant on the most forbidden topics in America. That goes back to 2010. I'm sure it is still highly relevant and I Love this one. 2015 Wages of Rebellion, the Moral Imperative of Revolt. So again, a perfect match for Ralph Nader, somebody who courageously speaks out and tells the truth about American society. Chris Hedges the collection of speeches, a $100 donation to KPFK. Again, just speech after speech after speech are spectacular. They're brilliant. And they've been all collected onto one easily played collection of MP3s that you'll receive and you will have for $100. Loads of speeches. Looks like about a dozen speeches from Chris Hedges. $100 pledge of support $120 pledges support the brand new book at Genocide Foretold, reporting on survival and resistance in occupied Palestine. That's Chris Hedges, his latest book. And you'll get the book and the collection of speeches that includes his speech on a genocide foretold from 2025 that he just did at KPFK in May of 2025. Then both of them together for a 200 pledge of support. 8189-8557-3581-8985. KPFK please call support KPFK and the Ralph Nader Radio Hour.
- [55:47]
Steve Skrovan
Steve and you can also, if you're having a good year, you can pledge more. $500 $1,000. Because when KPFK receives these higher donations, you're donating for those who cannot. It's a win win. You get tax benefits. It's aligning with the holiday spirit of giving. It's helping KPFK meet crucial annual fundraising goals for vital programs that include the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. And it's strengthening their own connection, your own connection to the communities you care about. So now's the time for reflection and generosity. KPFK relies heavily on this end of year campaign to secure funding for the entire next year, making donor support essential for our operations and impact.
- [56:30]
Alan Minsky
818-985-5735. Call now. Donate to KPFK and the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. The book A Genocide Foretold confronts the stark realities of life under siege in Gaza and the heroic effort ordinary Palestinians are waging to resist and survive. Weaving together personal stories, historical contents, and unflinching journalism. Chris Hedges provides an intimate portrait of systemic oppression, occupation and violence. The book includes chapters on what life is like in Gaza City and Ramallah in the midst of approaching bombs and gunfire, the history of dispossession of Palestinians of their land in relationship to the ideology of Zionism a portrait of 17 year old Amir psychoanalysis of the state of permanent war that has led to the destruction of hospitals, telecommunication centers and everything across gods in society, the ways in which the collective retribution against innocence is a familiar tactic employed by colonial rulers and a heartbreak, heartbreaking final chapter called Letter to the Children of Gaza. That's all in the Book of Genocide Foretold available when you donate at the $120 level, that's $10 a month to KPFK and the Ralph Nader RA. You'll pick up a Genocide Foretold for $100. The incredible collection of speeches by Chris Hedges and then Both combined for a 200 pledge. We'll send it to you. Thank you gifts at 8189-8557-3581-8985 kpik and Steve Scrobin I just want to thank you for your tireless work on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour once a week it is here on KPFK on Sunday delivering insight and wisdom unrivaled with any weekly show I would argue in the whole of the country. Every week is spectacular. Thank you for your work and contribution on Steve and your final thoughts.
- [58:14]
Steve Skrovan
It's a pleasure and a privilege.
- [58:16]
Alan Minsky
Alan 8189-8557-3581-8985 kpfk please donate now. I was a cutter in a factory in New York when there were factories, all the factories. The garment industry left New York back in the 80s and early 90s. There's not too much left. And then I drove a cab in New York so I joined the union. Of course at one point labor was 34% of the population back in the day. Now we're down to 7%. 87 million Americans did not vote. What does that tell you? Apathy and complacency. Pacifica is the only station that really gives out the true voice of the sport. Thank you for tuning in to kpfk, your listener sponsored radio station. This week we'll be wrapping up our fund drive so time is running out for us to reach our goal and cover our expenses. If you haven't already, please make your pledge now to help KPFK continue providing and important fact based journalism without corporate influence. You can do that@kpfk.org donate or by calling 818-985-5735 to make a contribution. KPFK has been addressing the world's most critical issues since 1959. So if you're passionate about humanity and this planet, please donate at any level you can. Every contribution counts, whether it's a one time gift or a monthly installment. Once more, please visit kpfk.org donate or call us at 818-985-5735. That's 818.