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- [00:00]
Ralph Nader
Foreign.
- [00:14]
Wanda Sykes
Hey, this is Wanda Sykes and you're listening to KPFK, 90.7 FM, Los Angeles. And if you like to shell out a few bucks, you know, keep us up and running so I can have nice conversation in a cool voice like this.
- [00:32]
Pick up the phone and call 818-985-5735. That's 818985, KPFK.
- [00:40]
Judith Enck
Thank you.
- [00:44]
Ralph Nader
This is Mumia Abu Jamal. You're listening to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Enjoy. Stand up. Stand up. You've been sitting way too.
- [00:59]
Hannah Feldman
Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. My name is Hannah Feldman, your host for today, along with my co host, Steve Scrovan. Hello, Steve.
- [01:08]
Ralph Nader
Hello, Hannah.
- [01:09]
Steve Scrovan
Nice to see you taking the con today.
- [01:11]
Hannah Feldman
It's an honor and a privilege. We're here with my other co host, David Feldman. Hello, David.
- [01:17]
David Feldman
I'm only trained to say hello, Steve.
- [01:20]
Hannah Feldman
I'll take it. And of course, the man of the hour, Ralph Nader. Hello, Ralph.
- [01:25]
Ralph Nader
Hello, everybody. The new capital citizen is out.
- [01:29]
Hannah Feldman
Today's guest says, quote, plastic is everywhere. Wrapped around our food, stitched into our clothes, even coursing through our veins. End quote. That's Judith Ank, founder and president of Beyond Plastics, an organization whose goal is eliminating plastic pollution everywhere. She's co author with Adam Mahoney of the new book the Problem with Plastic How We Can Save Ourselves and Our Planet Before It's Too Late. The book is described as a powerful investigation into plastics impact on human health and the environment and how we can fight back. We'll speak to Judithank about the plastics crisis, the false hope of recycling, and the real solutions to petrochemical pollution. As always, somewhere in there we'll check in with our indomitable corporate crime reporter, Russell Mokhyber. But first, how can we save ourselves and our planet from plastics before it's too late? David?
- [02:25]
David Feldman
Judith Enck is the founder and President of Beyond Plastics, whose goal is to eliminate plastic pollution everywhere. In 2009, she was appointed by President Obama to serve as Regional administrator at the U.S. environmental Protection Agency. And she served as Deputy Secretary for the Environment in the New York Governor's office. She's currently a professor at Bennington College where she teaches classes on plastic pollution. She's co author with Adam Mahoney of the Problem with How We Can Save Ourselves and Our Planet Before It's Too Late. Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Judith Enck.
- [03:04]
Judith Enck
Thank you. It's a real honor to be with you.
- [03:07]
Ralph Nader
Welcome indeed, Judith. You got a real encomium from the famous Bill McKibben who basically said he didn't know anybody on the planet who knew more about plastics than you do. And you've put a lot of it in a very short book, about 178 pages, listeners, very clearly written, and not only describes the horrible problem, but in page after page, what can be done about it by us as users, by government procurement standards and other ways to cut the demand down, down, down. Okay, let's start with something that isn't usually prominent in books like yours. Give us the top five or six corporations who are most responsible for this plastics production and distribution problem. We're not talking about Walmart using it. We're talking about manufacturers like DuPont and how some of them have been so concentrated in Louisiana. You have a section in your book on what you call Cancer Alley. The petrochemical industry so touted and protected and boosted by tyrant Donald Trump week after week. Give us the names of the companies who are the culprits.
- [04:19]
Judith Enck
Well, plastics are made from fossil fuels and chemicals. The number one plastic maker in the United States today is Exxon Mobil. So the large producers, you have to look at the fossil fuel producers and the chemical producers are Exxon Mobil, Shell, dupont, Dow Chemical, et cetera. And what these companies have done is they have created sacrifice zones, parts of the country where there is a concentration of plastic production facilities. They are releasing vast amounts of contaminants into the air, the water, the soil, and making people sick. So, so Ralph, you mentioned Cancer Alley. That has been a concern of mine for years. This is an 85 mile stretch along the Mississippi river between Baton Rouge and New Orleans where there are hundreds of petrochemical facilities. And a recent study by Johns Hopkins found that the cancer rates are seven times higher than the national average. So that's not including asthma, that's not including problems with reproduction, neurological damage from lead exposure, for instance. And when it comes to plastic, not only are there health problems where it is produced, which is mostly Louisiana, Texas and Appalachia, but also because most plastics never get recycled, they wind up either loose in the environment and getting into our rivers in the ocean, or they go to garbage incinerators or landfills, which again, are typically located in low income communities and communities of color. So every part of the plastic life cycle creates real problems for low income people living in communities where either it's produced or disposed of.
- [06:13]
Ralph Nader
Well, what kind of representation does cancer ally have in the US Congress to protect these victims back home?
- [06:21]
Judith Enck
None. You know, Speaker Johnson is from Louisiana, so my approach has been the people of Louisiana and Texas do not have strong environmental agencies enforcing the law. EPA is no longer enforcing the law. The governor of Louisiana is actually offering massive taxpayer subsidies to bring polluting companies into Louisiana. So we can't expect the people of Louisiana to solve the plastics problem. We all can do something by adopting policies that reduce the demand for plastic. Now, granted, they may try to export some of it, but every time a city, for instance, bans plastic bags, that results in less plastic production and less pollution in places like Cancer Alley and Port Arthur, Texas.
- [07:16]
Ralph Nader
We're going to get into that in great detail in a few minutes, Judith, But I want to ask you something else that's piqued my curiosity. You should have certain vested interest companies on your side. For example, the paper companies that produce paper and cardboard, the glass companies that could replace plastic containers and aluminum, I.
- [07:39]
Judith Enck
Think steel and aluminum.
- [07:40]
Ralph Nader
What are they doing? You don't hear much about them. I mean, you know, plastic containers and other uses replace a lot of these biodegradable or environmentally benign containers that are made of paper, cardboard or glass. What's the situation there? Why aren't they speaking up more? Or maybe they are.
- [08:01]
Judith Enck
They're not really. So I think what matters is what are they doing, for instance, in state legislatures, I'll use New York and Albany as an example. Advocates and local governments are working to adopt a packaging reduction law. It's generally known as extended producer responsibility. But the New York law has much more teeth than typical extended producer responsibility laws. And what's interesting is the paper industry is opposing it, which makes no sense because once you reduce plastic packaging, for instance, there's going to be a shift, as you say, to paper, cardboard, metal, glass. But I guess they are just in solidarity with other industries. The Glass Packaging Institute has been better. They support, for instance, expanded bottle bills, the first bill I ever worked on when I was a student with Naiperg back in the Mesozoic Age. And it's nice to have them supporting the bill, but they could actually do more. And aluminum is kind of supportive, but they, you know, they don't use their political capital and I think they're making a really big mistake stake. But more than that, we want to shift to more recyclable materials, but also we want waste reduction and we want to see investments in reuse and refill. So, for instance, there are small companies, there are entrepreneurial companies that have been really supportive of efforts to reduce plastic because they are investing in reuse and refill. And that's actually the more sustainable long term solution. You remember it wasn't long ago that Coca Cola sold soda in refillable glass bottles. You paid a deposit, you returned it, it was sanitized and it went around maybe a hundred times. I remember getting milk from a local dairy in reusable bottles. So right now, unless we have new laws that require a reduction in packaging, we're not going to see companies making those investments on their own. At least not enough of them.
- [10:13]
Ralph Nader
Well, let's go to the mass retail level. The other day I was talking with Nicholas Johnson who was former federal communication commissioners under Lyndon Johnson and he was known for his book how to talk back to your TV set and he lives in Iowa City and he told me that the nearby Aldi's does not use plastic. They ban plastic. They use paper, cardboard or glass. And Aldi is a very fast expanding chain of pretty good service and very good prices all over the country. Do you find that to be true and are there any other big retailers who are basically pushing back and saying we don't want these plastic containers?
- [10:55]
Judith Enck
Well, most big retailers are terrible on this issue because in their minds plastic is cheap because they don't pay for disposal, they don't have anything to do with the health damage. I would say Aldi's is probably the most hopeful. I sometimes shop there because they have a lot of organic products. They haven't been using bags at checkout for a really long time, many years even before plastic bag bans were adopted. They definitely are still using plastic and they can improve. But I think compared to Trader Joe's and other supermarket chains, they're better. I also like the fact that they use less ultra processed foods, less ultra processed ingredients. So they're okay. But they still have a long way to go to reduce plastic packaging. I don't think they're going to get much better until state laws are adopted to require less packaging.
- [11:58]
Ralph Nader
Well, let's look at the state laws on page 133. You have a whole list of things that can be mandated in state laws and I'm just going to read them for our listeners briefly. Number one, provide financial relief for taxpayers. That is companies fund municipal recycling and invest in reuse and refill programs. Two, reduce 50% of packaging within 10 years. Companies can achieve this through elimination or by switching to reuse and refill systems. Three, all single use packaging must be recyclable and companies must achieve a minimum 70% recycling rate. Four, ban the most well studied toxic chemicals. And you list those. Five include commercial packaging not only residential. Six, chemical recycling should not count, and we'll get to that later. Seven, beverage container deposit laws could be adopted as the two programs work best together. Eight, avoid glaring loopholes such as those that might exempt non recyclable packaging. 9. Provide sufficient oversight by state agencies designed to prevent industry control of the process and 10, ensure strong enforcement by penalizing packaging producers for missing reduction and recycling targets and requiring companies to reimburse agencies for enforcement costs. You make a big issue that recycling has not worked and will never work. And the same is true for chemical recycling. That is a sort of eye opening assertion that some people who know a little about environmental recycling find astounding. Could you explain?
- [13:42]
Judith Enck
Sure. In this holiday season, it's like telling people there's no Santa Claus. So let me start by saying I support recycling. I started my town's recycling program in upstate New York as a volunteer 37 years ago. I know the exact date because it's when I was home on maternity leave. That's what I did with my maternity leave is start a recycling program and change cloth diapers with my husband, who also changed diapers. But we should keep recycling metal, cardboard, paper, glass, compost, your yard waste and food waste because it's a wonderful way to improve soil health and not have so much methane emissions at landfills. But the sad reality is that plastic recycling has been an abysmal failure. Always has, always will be. And let me explain why. Right now, the US plastic recycling rate is only 5 to 6%. In the past, it never even got to double digits, even when we were exporting plastics to China, which China made us stop doing about 10 years ago. So if you have an aluminum can, for instance, you can recycle that into a new aluminum can. Your old newspaper, if you have a copy, for instance, like I do in my hand right now. The corporate crime reporter. Now you can save this for future reference. But if you need to recycle it, this paper will be recycled into new paper or cardboard boxes. With plastics, we have 16,000 different chemicals used to make plastics, many different types of plastics called polymers, and many different colors. So think of your own home or apartment. You might have a bright orange hard plastic detergent container bottle near your washing machine. And then in your refrigerator, you might have white polystyrene flavor foam from takeout food. Those two things cannot be recycled together. They're too different. So you cannot really accomplish high levels of recycling with plastics because you would literally have to do hundreds, if not thousands of different sorting. So the people who know this the most are the plastic manufacturers. Yet they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars confusing and deceiving the public into thinking, don't worry about all your plastic, just toss it in your recycling bin. Knowing that most plastic never gets recycled. It is so serious that the California Attorney General, Rob Bonta filed a lawsuit against ExxonMobil in September 2024 alleging that they have deceived the public on plastics recycling and chemical recycling. Exxon Mobil has tried to get the case dismissed. They have failed. They're now trying to get it moved from state court to federal court. But thank goodness the California Attorney general is taking this on. And I think consumers, you know, have a right to know that most plastic never gets recycled. The only really plastic recycling success story is PET plastic bottles in bottle bill states, which is only 10 states in the nation. Because that plastic is consistent and it's separated, it stays clean. But most everything else that has those iconic recycling arrows on it, most of those plastics do not get recycled. Some that are marked number one and number two are so your detergent bottle, your milk jug, that has a fighting chance of getting recycled. But only nationwide, our plastic recycling rate is a mere 5 to 6%.
- [17:30]
Ralph Nader
What is chemical recycling you think doesn't work?
- [17:33]
Judith Enck
Yeah, chemical recycling is a false solution. Basically, companies attempt to heat waste plastic at a high temperature and then most of it is then results in low grade fossil fuel. It's a pyrolysis process. Some states consider it incineration. It doesn't work. So the industry has been trying this since the 80s. We did a report on this, it's on our website, which is beyondplastics.org I wanted to see how many chemical recycling facilities are actually operating and what their track record is. Because whenever you show up in a city council hearing or state legislature, companies and trade associations like the American Chemistry Council argue we don't need to reduce plastics. We have chemical recycling. Well, the major problem is it doesn't work and it's not economical. It sucks up huge public taxpayer subsidies. But when we did our report just a little over two years ago, we only found 11 constructed facilities in the whole country. Since then, three of the 11 have shut down, one declaring bankruptcy. And let's be generous and say all 11 were actually operating. They were just handling a bit over 1% of the plastic waste stream. So it's not real, it is polluting. And it's mostly a talking point for chemical industry lobbyists who want to block comprehensive packaging reduction.
- [19:08]
Ralph Nader
I want to shake our listeners up because I was Shaken up. When I read this on page 135, you said under a subparagraph, artificial plastics turf. Can you think of a sadder world than one where our green spaces are replaced with plastic artificial glass? We can't. Somehow the plastics industry has been able to convince an increasing number of communities, schools, businesses and individuals that they should install this horrible stuff, also called synthetic turf. Artificial turf is a multi layer plastic product used as a surface on athletic playing fields, playgrounds, golf courses and residential lawns. It typically consists of a top layer of fibers made from plastic such as nylon, polypropylene or polyethylene that is designed to mimic the look of natural glass blades. Infill made from recycled tires called crumb rubber. For alternative materials that remain untested, some of which have been found to contain forever chemicals, a backing layer to which the blades are sewn, a drainage layer and additional padding layers in some application. I could go on, but there are all kinds of high schools exposing their athletes, all kinds of playgrounds exposing youngsters and adults alike. There's a massive promotion campaign here saying you don't have to cut the grass anymore or deal with the grass. Athletes have been very seriously injured on artificial turf. The great Chicago Bears runner Gale Sayers, who scored five touchdowns in one NFL game, had his career shortened because of injury on artificial turf. But then you really drive it home. And I want to ask you, what are the deadly cancer causing chemicals in synthetic or artificial turf fields?
- [21:06]
Judith Enck
Well, there's a lot. Benzene, arsenic, styrene, these are all human carcinogens, known human carcinogens. We've got PAHs's polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, zinc, which is a neurotoxicant. Cadmium, a known human carcinogen, chromium, phthalates, which is a reproductive toxicant, which Dr. Shanna Swan writes brilliantly on. Latex, which is an allergen particulate matter. These are very toxic chemicals that kids are playing sports on. Often they're tackled, their faces, their noses get very close to this plastic turf. And an additional issue is that it gets very hot during warm weather. And we know due to climate change, every year is getting hotter and hotter. So there are a number of parents and advocates around the country trying to convince not just school boards, but also public parks not to install this turf, this plastic grass. But what often unfolds is the athletic coaches and the parents of athletes who think if only their kids can get more playing time, they'll make it into the NFL. They are a very vocal Constituency that advocates for the installation of this plastic turf. And time after time, school boards and parks departments go along. Parks departments go along because they think that this is less maintenance. And then the athletic coaches want the student athletes playing more time. And so if it's raining, it doesn't get muddy, just the plastic turf can still be played on. And then I recently heard a radio ad where there are these companies that are urging homeowners to install these in their backyards so they don't have to mow the grass. And what is that doing to our ecology? What is it doing to pollinators and birds? And so it's kind of a sleeper issue. But I think we got it right in the book when we say, can you think of anything sadder?
- [23:25]
Ralph Nader
You know, you have a fact in there that I cannot believe. You say synthetic turf has been documented to reach temperatures over 200 degrees Fahrenheit on a 98 degree Fahrenheit day. Just think of that.
- [23:39]
Judith Enck
Yeah, and it's just going to get worse.
- [23:41]
Ralph Nader
Regulation. This is obviously corporate criminogenic behavior. I would say corporate criminal behavior. But there are no laws making it criminal. But it fulfills the standards of common law criminality, which is encapsulated in the word criminogenic, because number one, they produce it. Number two, they know what it's doing. Number three, they're not changing or stopping the harm they're making. This is a criminogenic industry. Anybody leading the fight besides you and beyond plastics.org?
- [24:13]
Judith Enck
Well, leading the fight is really grassroots activists who are worried about their kids playing on this. And sometimes the question will go to voters in a referendum. And there are a couple great women in Westchester county in the lower Hudson Valley who were educating their community. And unfortunately, the referendum passed by a very small margin. So this is really grassroots activism. I am not aware of any state laws that prevent the installation of this plastic turf. There are some pending, none adopted. But I would not be surprised if we didn't see more action in the coming year or two because the problems are getting documented. And as you say, there are NFL players, also the Philadelphia Eagles, that have been very outspoken wanting to play on real grass and not plastic turf.
- [25:11]
Ralph Nader
Well, it gets even more crazy because in your book on page 141, you mentioned regulating cigarettes and e cigarettes. I never knew this. You say, despite decades of anti smoking education, cigarette butts are still one of the most commonly littered plastic Items with about 4.5 trillion discarded each year. Tell us what's in that.
- [25:34]
Judith Enck
Yeah, the filters of the cigarettes, they're made from cellulose acetate, and the filters contain toxic chemicals including formaldehyde, nicotine, arsenic, lead, copper, chromium, cadmium. And people think if you're smoking filtered cigarettes, somehow it's safer for you, but it's not. And like all plastic, when these filters are littered, they do not biodegrade, and they're so small. So if you're tossing away a cigarette butt walking down the street in any community, rarely does anyone pick it up. I will admit, when I lived in Brooklyn, I would often pick up plastic litter in front of our apartment building, but I never picked up the cigarettes for various reasons. So when it rains, that gets into the storm drain, and the storm drain often will go into streams, rivers, and eventually gets into the ocean. This is an issue that needs a lot of attention. It's like the last acceptable form of litter. A lot of people wouldn't think about tossing out a can or a bottle, but they very flagrantly will toss out cigarette butts all over our streets, our beaches, our parks. And then we're also facing E cigarettes and big tobacco's marketing ploy, which is driving a rise in youth nicotine addiction. I'm really concerned about these vaping devices. Not only are they a source of litter in many communities, but you've got people sucking on hot plastic. That's the delivery mechanism that can't be good for them. And these companies are really targeting children with flavored vaping products. It's like candy cane or grape or cherry. And if you're walking down the street behind someone who's releases this, like, huge puff of smoke, you smell that flavor. And so a lot of these products often have a battery in them and a mouthpiece for inhaling, and they are littered all over our streets and our parks and beaches. So I actually want to do more on this issue, but it's daunting to say the least.
- [27:55]
Ralph Nader
Let's talk about some light at the end of this deadly tunnel that you've described in terms of reducing demand and substituting for the plastics, what is something that you call skip the stuff policies?
- [28:10]
Judith Enck
Oh, I love skip the stuff. So anyone who gets takeout food, even if, when you place the order, if you say, I don't need utensils, I don't need straws, I don't need napkins, because you're often eating at home or at your desk, you still get all that stuff. And so we want the default to be, you don't get all that stuff unless you ask for it. And this is working beautifully all over the country, including in New York City. There's a statewide bill pending today in the New Jersey state legislature. It makes perfect sense because it saves the restaurant's money, and then you don't have your kitchen drawer overflowing with old forks and utensils and condiments that you're never going to use. Until recently, I was able to say that there's no known opposition to this. These policies get adopted. But a bill to accomplish this was proposed in the Delaware state legislature. I testified there in support, and surprisingly, there was opposition from the restaurant association and I suspect, others, because Delaware is home to major chemical companies. So that was an outlier. But this is an easy way to reduce the use of plastic. You know, there are many, many policy prescriptions. There are local governments around the country adopting strong laws. What we try to convey in the book is there's a lot you can do in your personal life, and we provide some tips. And you don't do it out of altruism. You do it because you don't want microplastics in your body. And hopefully we can talk about the.
- [29:53]
Ralph Nader
Health risks list as you can find the model bill here in Beyondplastics.org yeah.
- [30:00]
Judith Enck
We have a bunch of model bills. Yeah, go to our website, beyondplastics.org, a number of different model bills, because you can't shop your way out of the problem. We need systemic change. So as a former federal regulator, my idea of systemic change is passing a law with no loopholes and then strongly enforcing the laws. That's how we're going to reduce the demand.
- [30:24]
Ralph Nader
Okay, you have a section called reuse and refill system.
- [30:28]
Judith Enck
Yes. And you can work on that locally. For instance, so many kids, when they get lunch or breakfast at school, are served directly on polystyrene trays or plates. One of the women that we profile and applaud in the book is the late Debbie Lee Cohen. Her children were going to school in the New York City public school system, the largest public school system in the nation. And their food was served directly on a polystyrene tray. So Debbie Lee Cohen teamed up with other parents, started this feisty little group that I love called Cafeteria Culture. Highly recommend their movie called Microplastic Madness. She got the New York City school system to stop using polystyrene trays. And what we really need is schools to have money to install dishwashing equipment so kids are served on real dishes every day. You know, that's what I mean by building the reuse refill infrastructure. Another example is if you go to the airport, you can bring your refillable water bottle and not waste 2 bucks on plastic water bottles. You can just refill your own container. We need those water refill stations and water fountains not only in airports, but in bus stations and train stations where more low income people travel. Every public park, main street should have these refill stations.
- [32:00]
Ralph Nader
Farmer's markets.
- [32:02]
Judith Enck
Absolutely.
- [32:03]
Ralph Nader
Farmers markets, restaurants and stadiums and other workplaces.
- [32:07]
Judith Enck
Yeah, absolutely. Most public water supplies in the United States are safe. At least the Clean Water act is still in effect and local water utilities test the water. So unless you've got a problem with lead pipes or you're in a place with known contamination problems, it is a total rip off to spend money on plastic water bottles. So you know, there are things like that. We hear from wineries that want to shift to refillable glass bottles because they're spending like 80 or 90 cents per bottle to bottle their wine. And you need a commercial bottle washing operation to clean and sanitize bottles. So we have these solutions, but right now they're not plentiful enough.
- [32:56]
Ralph Nader
Listeners, how convenient Judith Inc. S organization, Beyondplastics.org is for you. You go to Beyondplastics.org you can get a guide to switching Meals on Wheels programs to refillable containers. You can get a guide for restaurants to reduce plastic, which can be found here. You can get a guide for how dry cleaning businesses can reduce their use of plastics. And on and on. What more do you need? Now you've touched on something we've worked on many years and that is local, state and federal governments are the biggest consumers. They buy almost everything. And at the federal level they buy missiles and bombs. But because the customer is always right, remember that these governments can say we want to buy your products, but we don't want them in plastics. Here are the procurement requirements to avoid plastics. Can you describe that and what New York and Massachusetts are doing?
- [33:53]
Judith Enck
Sure. So you're right. Government purchases a lot of stuff. New York has a program to reduce toxics and prohibits the purchase of single use plastic water bottles, for instance, using taxpayer dollars. The Massachusetts governor Maura Healey did a very similar executive order. A lot can be done by executive order. I used to think that executive orders just covered the practices of government like purchasing. But we have now seen at the federal level President Trump using vast changes in policy via executive orders. But they can be a force for good. You can do a local law, you can do an executive order and you can really drive the market. I mean, the reason I'm really interested in procurement is. You might recall, Ralph, Bill Clinton during his administration did an executive order saying something like 25% of all federal paper purchases must be recycled paper. That completely changed the paper industry and gave birth to the recycled paper industry. So that still stands. I'm not aware. Don't tell anyone about this, because we don't want President Trump to change that executive order. But you can do a lot with procurement policy. I just want to warn people. It's a slogan. You're dealing with offices like the Office of General Services and others, and they have procurement experts that are pretty set in their ways. They don't like to change what they're purchasing. So you have to get the leadership from the governor or the mayor saying that they want to do this.
- [35:38]
Ralph Nader
But you have a list of women who are succeeding in one area after another. And one of them's name is Debbie Lee Cohen, who had a child in one of the schools, and she didn't want the child to eat on plastic containers or service material. She didn't want her child to be exposed to plastics. And she took off and, as you say, launched a relentless campaign to eliminate polystyrene trays from New York City public schools. And she won. Then you list a lot of other women and you raised the question, where are the men here? Where are the men here?
- [36:13]
Judith Enck
Yeah, that is a really good question, Ralph. Where are the men on this issue? There's an incredible gender gap, gap. And we work with community leaders from all over the country. I teach a class on plastic pollution at Bennington College. And during COVID Bennington College asked me if I could offer this on Zoom. So now I offer my class on Zoom. And most of the class is made up of auditors, community folks from around the country who just audit the class. It's a seven week class on Wednesday nights. Over 95% of my students over the past five years are women. With the undergraduates, it's more balanced, male and female, and many international students. But among the community auditors in my class, that's mostly women. The activists who are speaking truth to power and standing up to big companies, people like Diane Wilson and Sharon Levine in the Gulf south mostly work with women. And I don't know exactly why this is, but we need more men involved. We need more people involved. We need policymakers who seem extremely busy and often unable to focus on details. We need them to read the book and talk about what they're going to do in their communities and in their states to reduce plastic.
- [37:39]
Ralph Nader
Well, listeners should know that Judith has in her book section that says start here 10 easy reuse solutions, strategies and switches as a consumer. And that's not the systemic solution that she wants, but every little bit counts. It also makes people more aware, not just in their purchasing habits, but they become more active spokespersons, more active citizens as a result. Just an example of why I wrote my recent book Civic Self Respect. In the process of shopping, they can also learn about the kind of advocacy that would make shop items safer. The problem with the book, as I see it, is you can so discourage people that they become cynical and withdraw. And although your book has enormous practical ways for people to get involved just in terms of their own shopping habits or trying to get the local restaurant to replace plastic or small businesses, family owned businesses, it still is overwhelming. I mean, for example, who would know that if you have a nice cup of chamomile tea, it's in a plastic tea bag? I mean, when's it going to stop? There are people who are properly suspicious of contaminated public water drinking systems and so they're buying bottled water. Now you say don't buy bottled water. How do you balance out here on the bottled water versus likely contaminated with lead and other.
- [39:10]
Judith Enck
Yeah, I mean, if you've got lead pipes or PFAS chemicals, you should use bottled water. But that is a unique situation. Most American public water supplies are not contaminated, so there's no reason for people to be wasting money on bottled water. But, you know, you put your finger on it, this is an overwhelming issue and we don't want people to feel like there's nothing you can do, because there is. And people are doing it all over the world, not just in the United States. And so, you know, we've got local groups and affiliates, people working together. If you're working on this alone, it can get pretty discouraging. But if you're working with neighbors and students and faith leaders, every so often you get a win and you're good for another couple years and you just keep trying. I am a little worried. For instance, on the climate change issue, a lot of people feel overwhelmed and that it's hopeless and what can one person do? And that fails to acknowledge that the reason we're not making more progress on climate change is because of the political power of fossil fuel companies. On the plastics issue, we're taking on fossil fuel, chemical, consumer brand companies and plastics companies. So it's a lot. It's amazing we get anything done. But people around the country are coming Together and they're getting victories. And I do think if you start paying attention to plastic in your own life, you see that there are alternatives and that you kind of climb the civic ladder. So you try to reduce plastic in your own home, then you look at your kids school, then you look at your faith community. Then before you know it, you're at your city council asking what can the city do to reduce plastics? You're going to get a couple victories there. And then you find the statewide environmental groups that are working on this. This is for the long haul. I always tell people you're not going to see results in a year or two. You sign up for a decade to do this.
- [41:11]
Ralph Nader
You want to get rid of a toxic chemical in the environment, don't think you can regulate it and constantly fight the battle against the corporate lobbyists. Get a ban. So for example, we got lead out of gasoline, not by regulating it, by prohibiting it from being put in gasoline or in paint. You have a proposal that is systemic and fundamental in terms of banning these plastics so they never have to be challenged by informed consumers or regulators surrounded by lobbyists.
- [41:45]
Judith Enck
Well, I would love to ban all plastics, but we do not have the political influence to get that done. So we are doing things like banning plastic bags and seeing people shift to reusable bags. Our model packaging reduction bill is not a ban on single use packaging, but it says you have to reduce it by 50% over 10 years. And that's hard to get through. That model Bill also bans 15 of the most toxic chemicals used in packaging. And so, you know, the thing about the plastics issue, like so many issues we work on, is you have to be aspirational and politically viable at the same time. You know, we can introduce bills to ban plastics across the board. Sadly, they wouldn't pass today. They might in the future. So this is the debate in my household all the time, incremental change versus more aspirational, long term change. And I just feel that we are in such a state of emergency with plastics. It's building up in our bodies. Our ocean is becoming a watery landfill that we don't have the luxury of getting total bands, getting total bans adopted. It's just not going to happen in the next 10 years. And so we take incremental steps. It's not nearly as satisfying, but you actually can actually get some reduction in plastic.
- [43:18]
Ralph Nader
The book is called the Problem with Plastic by Judith Enck and it was stimulated by your work at Bennington College and your students. Can you explain that?
- [43:28]
Judith Enck
Sure. So when I left epa. I decided I wanted to work on plastics. And Bennington College welcomed me as a faculty member and also is the home of Beyond Plastics. So one of the things we do is educate students and also educate journalists. And, and one of the journalists who approached me at a meeting at the college was an editor at the New Press. If your listeners don't know the New Press, they should. It's a progressive nonprofit publishing firm in New York City. TheNewPress.org and the editor there asked me for a couple years if I could write this book. And I kept saying there's no time. But then we made time. They gave us a wonderful co author, Adam Mahoney, a reporter out of New Orleans. My colleagues at Beyond Plastics all worked on this with me. This was a team effort, not just me. And now we gave birth to a book.
- [44:32]
Ralph Nader
Let's go to Steve.
- [44:34]
Steve Scrovan
Judith, are you familiar with the organization Ridwell and the work that they're doing? It started as a father son project and then has grown. I believe it started in Seattle where they match up very hard to recycle plastics with companies that will actually recycle them or reuse them. What do you think of Ridwell?
- [44:53]
Judith Enck
Yeah, I am familiar. I'm not a fan for a couple of reasons. One is if something is hard to recycle, you shouldn't make it. And it's a niche company. You have to pay a lot of money to subscribe. And we want recycling to be accessible to people and not a niche thing. So there are a couple companies like that. It's well intentioned. I don't think it really helps because such a small number of people are going to pay to do it. And if it's hard to recycle plastics, which is most plastics, you just shouldn't be making it. And what will happen is the plastics industry will say, so you don't really need to reduce plastics. Here's Ridwell, who's taking your candy wrappers and cigarette butts. But I just don't think it's viable.
- [45:41]
David Feldman
David So I know, Judith, that ideas like carbon capture are a pipe dream. But what do you say to people who insist science created this problem with plastics so science will eventually be able to solve it? Is there anything happening? Is it possible to design microbes that can eat these plastics in water and spit out something that's good for the planet?
- [46:10]
Judith Enck
No, they've been trying that for about 30 years. It doesn't work to scale. And also we just have to stop making so much plastic, like in a laboratory. If You've got bacteria or microbes that can eat the plastic waste. You still have to create new plastic. That cycle continues. These efforts don't really work in real life environment like the ocean, and it's not going to handle the massive amount. So the reason we have so much plastic on the market today is because there's a glut of fracked gas. Typically, over the years, plastics were made from oil and chemicals. Now it's made from 16,000 different chemicals and ethane, a byproduct of hydrofracking. So companies are trying to take that ethane and use it to make new plastic. And because there's such a glut of gas, that is why we are currently seeing this massive increase in plastic. So it's not really science, it's really the greed of fossil fuel and chemical companies that we're seeing this problem.
- [47:18]
David Feldman
Like fertilizer?
- [47:19]
Judith Enck
Yeah, similar.
- [47:20]
Ralph Nader
You know, you have some good memorable comparisons here. You say two garbage trucks worth of plastic enter the ocean every single minute. The companies producing all this plastic are turning the ocean into a landfill. Of course, that comes back in terms of contaminated fishery products on people's plates. And then you say agricultural soil now stores between 4 and 28 times more microplastics than oceanic basins do. I know somebody in our audience is saying, ralph, ask the question about the biggest and best substitute of all for plastics, which is industrial hemp. What's your answer?
- [48:00]
Judith Enck
Yes, I think industrial hemp is a viable alternative to plastic. And you would think that the cannabis industry would be using this for their new products. I tried to get that included in New York's cannabis law. But, yeah, I mean, industrial hemp definitely has a role to play here. We have to make sure there are no chemicals in it and that I think that is definitely a viable option.
- [48:27]
Ralph Nader
Well, it's been around for 5,000 years. It has thousands of uses. It's biodegradable. It was banned as part of the restrictions on drugs. Even though it has infinitesimals, these small amounts of thc, the farmers now are able to grow it in the United States. But there's something hampering it, which I'm going to try to find out with the guest and I wanted to come on the program. Something's blocking it from much more rapid expansion. It doesn't require much fertilizer. It is very sturdy fiber. It's been used for auto parts, for example, upholstery and autos. Of course, there's hemp food being sold, hemp oil. Anything you can do to find out more about that and publicize it. It would be very, very helpful, I think, to your cause. Judith, let's go to Hannah.
- [49:19]
Hannah Feldman
Are there any other campaigns or pressing projects that you could tell our listeners about from beyond plastics? Anything else you want to highlight?
- [49:30]
Judith Enck
Sure. So we're mostly policy wonks and organizers, and we work on bills at the local and state level. Two of our biggest campaigns in the coming year will be in New York and New Jersey, where we are working to adopt comprehensive packaging reduction laws. In April, we will be screening an exciting new film that will be coming out on plastics and health. And so we're looking for partners to sponsor the film screenings around the country. We have local groups and affiliates and they work on what they want to work on. Some of them are working on plastic turf. Some are working on local laws to ban plastic bags. Others are working on the skip the stuff policies. And we try to provide technical assistance and support on what people want to do locally. We are deeply committed to building the grassroots movement against plastics from the bottom up. We are not doing much at all at the federal level except playing whack a mole. So I do expect when Congress reconvenes in January, we'll probably see a really bad bill on toxics called the Toxic Substance Control Act. It's been around for decades. They're going to try to weaken the bill. They're going to try to preempt states from taking action on toxics.
- [50:56]
Ralph Nader
What do you say about Trump being the patron devil of the oil, gas and petrochemical industry?
- [51:03]
Judith Enck
Well, what you would expect. I mean, Trump is the worst president in the recent history of the nation. Lee Zeldin, the head of the epa, is aggressively anti environmental. I've seen him interviewed. And rather than talking about enforcing the Clean Air act and keeping pesticides out of our food, Lee Zeldin talks about energy dominance. So we no longer hear about energy independence. We hear about fossil fuel companies wanting to export fossil fuels to other countries. And then they mention an all of the above energy policy, which unfortunately includes coal and oil and nuclear. What they don't include is clean renewables. Donald Trump, for instance, is trying to cancel offshore wind projects all over the country. How is that? And all of the above energy policy? So I'm very, very concerned about the fate of my former agency, epa. I think it's going to take many, many years for the agency to recover and actually start protecting public health and enforcing federal laws again.
- [52:13]
Ralph Nader
Well, we've been talking with Judith Enck. Her last name is spelled enc, author with Adam Mahoney of the book the Problem With Plastic. This is one book that's so terrifying you won't be able to put it down. But it has all kinds of things that we can do as citizen advocates on our own government and as our regular shopping preferences to start reducing the level of plastic splash in the environment.
- [52:41]
Judith Enck
The COVID of our book is plastic free. Most book covers have a plastic lining on them. But our book cover, no plastic. And they're going to try to do that with future books.
- [52:51]
Ralph Nader
Well, that's very encouraging. And listeners, if Judith Inc. Is not discouraged, how dare can you be discouraged?
- [53:00]
Judith Enck
I'm not discouraged at all. No, I mean, thank you. I'm not discouraged at all. I see progress and I see small numbers of people making a big difference. And your website is beyondplastics.org so it's plural.
- [53:15]
Ralph Nader
Beyondplastics.org by the way, are Christmas trees made of plastic?
- [53:20]
Judith Enck
Artificial trees indeed are made of plastic, which is why I don't have one.
- [53:26]
Ralph Nader
So they've even intruded into the holidays. There's no place where there's no plastic. I remember growing up and listening to radio sponsored by dupont and they kept repeating again and again progress through chemistry and they trademarked it. So this is a propaganda process, listeners, that began many years ago and we've got to push back with all our efforts if we respect our prosperity. Thank you very much, Judith.
- [53:54]
Judith Enck
Thanks for having me. Ralph. This was really, really a great conversation.
- [53:58]
Hannah Feldman
We've been speaking with Judith Enck. We will link to her work@ralphnaderradiohour.com up next, Judith Ralph shares some reflections on the 60th anniversary of Unsafe at Any Speed. But first, let's check in with our corporate crime reporter Russell Mokhyber from the.
- [54:15]
Russell Mokhiber
National Press building in Washington, D.C. this year. Corporate crime reporter Morning Minute for Friday, December 5, 2025. I'm Russell Mokhiber. A Campbell Soup Company executive has been put on temporary leave after he allegedly referred to the firm soup as, quote, for poor people, unquote. A remarkable purportedly caught on an audio recording and attributed to him in a former employee's wrongful termination lawsuit. That's according to a report from the Guardian. The lawsuit was filed last week in Michigan State court by Robert Garza, who had joined Campbell's New Jersey headquarters remotely in September 2024 as a security analyst. Garza alleges he was fired in January after he raised concerns about comments made by Martin Bally, Campbell's vice president of information technology, including referring to one of the company's ingredients as bioengineered meat while going off on a racist tirade. For the corporate Crime Reporter, I'm Russell Mulcyber.
- [55:14]
Hannah Feldman
Thank you, Russell. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. I'm Hannah Feldman, along with Steve Scrovan, David Feldman, and Ralph. So, Ralph, you just had a very important anniversary, 60 years since you published Unsafe at Any Speed. How do you feel about it?
- [55:29]
Ralph Nader
Well, it's a book that put a lot of forces in motion. General Moses tripped on it and hired private detectives to trail me and try to get dirt on me. And that blew up into a huge media story which led to congressional hearings, which led to a public uproar and resulted in the fundamental auto and highway safety laws that were passed and signed into law by Lyndon Johnson at the White House in September 1966. He invited me there and gave me a pen, which I promptly misplaced, by the way. But the important thing about it now is, sure, it saved millions of lives and the laws are still on the books and even Donald Trump can't tear seat belts and airbags out of our cars. But if we tried to do this again today, it wouldn't happen. And that's because concentration of corporate power over Congress and the media is so much more intense now. And it's also because the decline of civic institutions and democratic institutions has been very pronounced over the last few decades. And that is sobering us up, which is why David Feldman proposed doing this program. As we continue to emphasize that underneath all our democracy pretensions is the quality and quantity of civic engagement, I want.
- [56:53]
Hannah Feldman
To thank our guests again, Judith Enck. For those of you listening on the radio, that's our show for you podcast listeners. Stay tuned for some bonus material we call the Wrap Up Featuring Francesco de Santis with In Case youe Haven't Heard. A transcript of this program will appear on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour substack site soon after the episode is posted.
- [57:12]
David Feldman
Subscribe to us on our Ralph Nader Radio Hour YouTube channel and for Ralph's weekly column. It's free@nader.org for more from Russell Mokheimer.
- [57:22]
Hannah Feldman
It'S@Corporatecrimereporter.Com the American Museum of Tort Law has gone virtual. You can visit tortmuseum.org to explore the exhibits, take a virtual tour and learn about iconic tort cases from history.
- [57:35]
David Feldman
To order your copy of the Capitol Hill Citizen Democracy Dies in Broad Daylight. It's@capitol hillcitizen.com and remember to continue the.
- [57:46]
Hannah Feldman
Conversation after each show, you can go to the comments section@ralphnaderradiohour.com and post a comment or question on this week's episode.
- [57:54]
David Feldman
The producers of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour are Jimmy Lee Wert, Hannah Feldman and Matthew Marin. Our executive producer is Alan Minsky.
- [58:03]
Hannah Feldman
Our theme music, Stand Up, Rise up, was written and performed by Camp Harris. Our proofreader is Elizabeth Solomon.
- [58:09]
David Feldman
Join us next week on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Thank you, Ralph.
- [58:14]
Ralph Nader
Thank you, everybody.
- [58:18]
You know what's right and you know what's wrong. Rise up don't let the system pull you down. Stand up, Stand up.
- [58:30]
Stand up for your you.
- [58:45]
John Crumshow
This is John Crumshow, host of Politics or Pedagogy on kpfk. Thank you for listening for almost two decades to the Education Report, an analysis of education policy and practice that affect our public schools. That's education. That's our mission for the remainder of our winter Fun Drive. Politics or Pedagogy will be available only online. We will return to the airwaves Sunday, December 21st at 12:55pm following the Ralph Nader Radio Hour.
- [59:18]
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