Ralph Nader (2:02)

Well, I want to raise the level of urgency. This is serious fascism developing quickly, and the dictatorship is being promoted by the dictator. Unlike a lot of dictators who don't want to admit they're dictators, Trump admits it. He's his number one witness for being impeached and removed from office. For example, he told the New York Times recently in an interview on January 9, when they asked him does he respect any restraints on his power involving the Constitution, federal statutes, regulations, foreign treaties that we're adhering to, and he dismissed them all. He said the only restraint on his power is is his moral values and his morality. And of course, he telegraphed that in July 2019 when he said, this is a quote with Article 2, I can do whatever I want as president, end quote. And he's proven it day after day, you know, bullying and attacking countries overseas, co belligerent with the Israelis on the slaughter of Palestinians. Now he's threatening Iran again. He's bombed Venezuela, he's threatening Cuba and Colombia. It's all open for Congress to convict him and remove him from office. You're fired is what they should say. But what do we have? We have in Congress cowards. We have, of course, the total toadies, the Republican Congress, with few exceptions, and House Speaker Mike Johnson and Senate Majority Leader Thong from South Dakota, Mike Johnson's from Louisiana, and they do whatever he wants. And the Democrats, while there are people like constitutional law expert Jamie Raskin, who has set a shadow hearing to publicly educate the American people on impeachment, quote, is a good idea, end quote. He's been muzzled by Hakim Jeffries and Charlie Schumer, who basically don't want the Democrats to use the word impeachment. So who's using the word impeachment the most? Donald Trump not only wants to impeach judges who decide against him, he's talking about the Democrats impeaching him. And he uses the word all the time. So we have an upside down situation here where the opposition party is not in the opposition on the most critical factor, which is that we have the most impeachable president in American history getting worse by the day. A dictator, a tyrant, a persecutor. He fires inspector generals, he fires prosecutors, he wants toadies everywhere. He's got the Supreme Court, six injustices of the Supreme Court on his side. And so even if he loses some, as he has been at the district court and circuit court level, he's pretty confident on the big issues he's going to win based on the Supreme Court 6:3 decision in June 2024, Trump vs. US which said that presidents cannot be criminally prosecuted for any of their official acts, which were not defined by the six injustices. And Justice Sotomayor defined it as doing anything he wants, including assassinating his opponents. The only thing left he can't control is what our founding fathers put in against the resurgence of a monarchy, which was the principle of objective of the American Revolution. Removing the monarch, King George iii. They didn't want another one. And they put the impeachment power, which is not reviewable by the court, in the hands of the House. Trial and conviction, removal by two thirds vote in the Senate. In the breaking news, he's crossed another red line. For the first time, the president has ordered the search of a reporter's home. Hannah D. Tenson had an article in late December in the Washington Post called Federal Workers share their stories December 24th. I thought it should be proposed for a Pulitzer. Surprise. All these federal workers who've had their careers and lives smashed, their future indeterminate, losing their livelihoods, breaking their unions, and they call her because she writes about what's happening to the civil service. They share their stories and she's very sensitive. And she assembled some of these stories in this article, which was flagged by the attorney general for Trump Bondi running the injustice department. And they searched her home. Not only did they search her home, but they took her work computer and they took her personal computer and other technologies that she had, all the while saying she's not the focus of the probe. It's some contractor in Maryland. Yeah, and we've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Steve Scrovan (6:55)

Ralph, I don't think anybody would disagree with you about impeachment or Trump's megalomania. You don't have to convince anybody of that. This is more of a strategic argument. I can kind of understand how the Democrats are thinking, yes, we can talk about impeachment, but we have no power to bring that about until after the midterm elections. What is the value of harping on this before you have the power to activate it? Because it seems like you kind of dilute your power if you're pounding away, pounding away, pounding away and can do nothing about it.

Ralph Nader (7:33)

Completely mistaken. The GOP and Congress looks at disaster in 2026, losing the House and the Senate as their polls drop. Remember, he's getting worse by the day. Can't judge April by today. He's going crazy. And if it's their political future, Steve, or Trump, who's not up for reelection in 2026, they're going to do what their predecessor Republicans did to ease out Richard Nixon, who was facing impeachment in the House, removal in the Senate. They sent a delegation to the White House. They said, you, time is up, Mr. President. And Nixon resigned, saying he lost his base in Congress. And it was often said that Nixon would never resign. He'd have to be carried out of the White House. This is the Nixon that won 49 out of 50 states in 1972 against George McGovern and was 60% in the polls. And less than two years later, he was out that's when you have your bargaining power before the election of 2026, not after the election. And it's very prudent for the Democrats to be ready. Ready with public opinion already ahead of them.

Steve Scrovan (8:43)

He's deeply unpopular, not only personally, but also his policies. So the public is ready for this. There must be something going on. How do you account for this strategically? What are the Democrats trying to avoid in your mind, other than it's some character flaw?

Ralph Nader (9:00)

Well, it's easy to say it's a tactical decision that is erroneous. They're not reflecting even the September poll by Salinda Lake, their Democratic pollster. In swing districts, I think it was 48% favored impeachment, 44% opposed. And. And things have gotten much worse for the people where they live, work and raise their families. Unemployment, the number of jobs created is at a low over recent years. And the prices are going up, inflation is up. And Trump is attacking the restraint by the Federal Reserve and not moving too fast to lower interest rates now has initiated a criminal probe of the chairman of the Federal Reserve. That ought to wake the bankers up if nothing else. He's accusing Jerome Powell of mismanaging the renovation of the new federal renovation of the Federal Reserve building in Washington, D.C. right.

Steve Scrovan (9:57)

So, Ralph, say you are a member of Congress from Connecticut. What would you be urging your fellow, assuming you're caucusing with the Democrats, what would you be urging them to do and how would you lead that fight?

Ralph Nader (10:10)

Well, they're in the minority, as you pointed out, but that doesn't keep them from not having widely publicized shadow hearings.

Steve Scrovan (10:17)

Yes, we know that. What would be the first shadow hearing you would call for as a Congress?

Ralph Nader (10:22)

Articles of impeachment drafted by constitutional scholar Bruce Fine. Also they've been drafted by John Boniface, Harvard Law grad, who has well over a million names from around the country on a petition urging the House to initiate impeachment proceedings.

Steve Scrovan (10:40)

Okay, so let's get even more specific.

Ralph Nader (10:42)

Union with the public and increasing the public opinion for impeachment and removal from office.

Steve Scrovan (10:48)

So do you doubt that the public, if impeachment articles were brought, would not support this? Do you really think, given Trump's unpopularity, that they wouldn't support this? They would support this.

Ralph Nader (11:02)

They already have shown in swing districts in a poll. There's another poll, I think, a bit over a month ago by pollsters associated with the Brookings Institute, which showed about 57 or 58% of the people agreed with the description in the poll of Trump as a, quote, dangerous dictator, end quote. So that's without any Democratic Party leadership, without any publicity, without any hearings, which without burning. The constitutional law experts who we believe, if you had 100 of them and asked them a simple question, if the Founding Fathers came back to life today, would any of them oppose the impeachment, conviction and removal of office of Donald J. Trump, who talks about being a monarch? That's what they fought King George over first. They would all support it. And you would want to lay the groundwork. Now, remember, all you need is a small number of defections from the Republicans. So if a number of Republicans defect, say 10 in the House, that gives the Democrat move to impeach a majority in the Senate a little more difficult because it's two thirds, unlike the House, just majority vote. But you can see the fracturing of some Republicans over bombing Venezuela without congressional authority in the Senate already, especially the ones that are up for reelection. There's no downside to getting this underway. The despotism is moving very rapidly. He's hiring 10,000 more ICE agents based on how strong they are for guns and militarism. Those are the two criteria reported when they interviewed them to recruit them. What do you think they're going to be like on the streets of American cities? And his reaction by sending hundreds more ICE agents to Minneapolis as a typical despot, typical tyrant against peaceful demonstrations after the death of the mother of three in a car trying to get away from the ICE agents.

David Feldman (13:11)

I wanted to ask you about genuine fear that Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer have. I was looking at polling. We always talk about how unpopular Trump is, but I always say, yeah, but compared to whom? When? If you put him up against Congress, he's more popular than Congress. In fact, on January 6, his popularity was twice that of Congress. So do you think that might be what makes Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer so gun shy? They don't have the people on their side.

Ralph Nader (13:46)

Well, I've just gone through the two polls and there'll be more polls. When you have congressional hearings and you have witnesses of great prominence, the press is going to cover it big time. The press is under the fire of Trump. They've been sued, networks have been sued, extortioned into settling for vast sums for personal use of Donald Trump. They don't like them. And they got hundreds of reporters on Capitol Hill who will give these hearings considerable prominence. And that will give people an even greater sense of. Of the mortal peril to their freedom, to their livelihoods, and to the refusal to enforce the laws that protect their health, safety and economic well being. All that will kick in, David, as well as how he's protecting big business with corporate welfare disbursements, unsupervised contracts, and dropping over 100 prosecutions of corporations by the injustice department alone. It's all do whatever you want. Corporations pollute, whatever you want, rip off people whatever you want. We're getting the federal cops off the corporate crime beat. You don't think that's going to change public opinion because they're being harmed, whether they're in red states, blue states, conservative liberals, doesn't matter. They're all bleeding the same color. He's tearing apart all kinds of contracts that are leaving small business bereft, all kinds of contracts for renewable energy in the red states, which have the lion's share of the Biden contracts to expand renewable energy. He's tearing down solar energy, building the omnicidal fossil fuel business. He's going crazy. They just have to put it on the mass media spectrum. He'll be down to less than 30%. Nixon was down below 30% for doing very small percentage. You know, Nixon was about to be thrown out of office on two impeachments, David, two subpoenas by Congress, which he defied in the first term. Trump defied over 125 congressional subpoenas. And the other impeachment was obstruction of justice, which is the brand of Trump's White House. It's a daily occurrence, according to his former national security aide who wrote it in his book. And of course, you don't have to read his book. He's always threatening judges, threatening prosecutors, inciting violence among his extreme crowd of supporters pouring in. So for their own survival, the Republicans will basically say, all right, Mr. President, you've done what you wanted. You can go back, enjoy Mar A Largo, make a lot of money, play golf, but we cannot lose the House and the Senate in 2026.

Steve Scrovan (16:32)

So, Ralph, if I may see if I can sum up your strategy here. Congressperson Ralph Nader of Connecticut is to have these shadow hearings, the gain press, that outline all of the impeachable offenses of Donald Trump, to try to garner a focus for people that will then convince Republican senators and senators and congresspeople, especially in swing states, that their careers are on the line and that they are better off jumping the Trump ship than otherwise. Is that a fair summary of your strategy?

Ralph Nader (17:10)

Yes, that's first summary.

David Feldman (17:12)

A month ago, maybe three weeks ago, you said he's not running again, the 22nd Amendment. He's old, he's tired. Is he running again?

Ralph Nader (17:22)

Well, he likes to keep these options open because he gets good press and, you know, he arouses his MAGA supporters, you know, like a president for life. You know, he just plays around that way. But the 22nd Amendment, very clear, you cannot run and elected more than twice.

David Feldman (17:41)

If he's not running again, we can ride him out. Is that what some people are thinking?

Ralph Nader (17:47)

David? By the end of this year, there'll be nothing left of our republic. I mean, how much wrecking of America can we take before we start using words which the Democrats have refused the words we have a fascist dictator.

David Feldman (18:00)

But if he's leaving.

Ralph Nader (18:01)

New York Times writing brilliant editorials condemning Trump, and they don't come to the conclusions from their editorial, they stop. They don't want to use the word dictatorship or impeachment, even though he uses the word impeachment all the time. I've written three articles in my columns. It isn't just the Congress. The first article I wrote was how the contented classes, who haven't been reached yet by Trump because they're fairly well off, they're getting tax cuts, freebies, corporate welfare. They have stayed on the sidelines. And as Kenneth Galbraith1 put in a book, only when the contented classes start mobilizing do things really start happening. That's what happened with Nixon, by the way. He lost the contented classes. Then I wrote another column called How Some Courageous Super Rich Can Save Our Country From Trump's Expanding Dictatorship. I said, look, at least 5% of the super rich have a conscience. They're worried about what life's going to be for their grandchildren. And they got a lot of contacts. They can start all kinds of groups in every congressional district, put pressure on members of Congress to impeach and convict. They can get on the media. They can fund a lot of civic opposition already underway in this country. Then I wrote a third column. Where are the ex presidents that Trump is bashing regularly? George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Joe Biden. He bashes Biden almost every day, sometimes several times a day, blaming him for things that Trump's responsible for. I wrote a column called Ex Presidents and Democratic Leaders Silent on the Impeachment of Donald Trump. Now, if they really mobilized to save the republic, they had a patriotic sense of historic significance. They could mobilize millions of people, raise tens of millions of dollars for civic pressure on Congress, get retired senators and representatives on board. After all, you know, tens of millions of people voted for these presidents. And Trump has Taken away the main boast of George W. Bush by scuttling the AIDS protection program in Africa that Bush keeps talking about. He's been silent. So we got cowards here. The issue is profiles of courage. That's what we need. Then the final article is going to be on retired military who detests Trump, who detests Hexeth as Secretary of Defense as incompetent, belligerent and has a personal history of abuse. So they command great loyalty around the country. Retired generals, admirals, lower high officers. They have networks. They were abused by Trump, fired by Trump, the former Secretary of the defense, two of them, as well as the John Kelly, the general who was his chief advisor in the White House. They were maligned by Trump. So what are they waiting for? They can mobilize the veterans of America. That's a decisive constituency. So we all have to pick up our oars. There are no sideline people anymore that can look at themselves in the mirror and watch this unfathomable drive to dictatorship in a country that always would say to itself, it can't happen here.

David Feldman (21:26)

I'm a little confused, Ralph, because you're saying he's not going to run for reelection and then, then that means he's not going to be a fascist dictator.

Ralph Nader (21:36)

The peril is in the next three years. We can't wait that long, as you will see, because he can't stop himself. He's escalating his dictatorial actions by the day he's invaded America. He's invading the cities. He's also cutting off programs to Americans in Democratic states and not cutting them off in red states run by Republican governors. Who would ever predicted that? So he's demonstrating his deranged, unstable megalomania and that's going to get to more and more people. But you have to have an opposition party that highlights it day after day. You can't just rely on a reporter here and a reporter there or a citizen group here or citizen group there. You need high visibility. And the move against them can go very fast. Just the way it did with Nixon, with the Watergate hearings in the House.

David Feldman (22:29)

Of Representatives, with the Supreme Court. There is something called, I believe it's called the unitary executive theory is Alito Clarence Thomas, do they want a crypto fascist president? I know Bill Barr was a believer in the unitary executive theory and Project 2025 seems to promote that. Are the courts going to encourage more and more power for the President?

Ralph Nader (22:57)

They believe in a all powerful executive. They basically say the President was elected, he's the chief executive of the executive branch. He shouldn't have to deal with independent agencies. He should be able to fire anybody he wants. And in terms of foreign policy, they seem to support a presidential power that violates the exclusive declare war authority of the US Congress. And whenever that is sent up, they say, well, that's a political question. We can't decide that. The district courts, circuit courts, it's very hard to judicially challenge their theory of a unitary executive. So they're protecting themselves by their own ideology. Go read my columns@nader.org you can get them free every week. You can look back at back columns where some of the things you hear on this program are elaborated in greater detail. I hope that you will encourage more radio stations to pick up this program in your community. After all, we own the public airways, not the corporations who dominate them. And finally, that you'll get active yourself. You'll mobilize voters so that the vote means something in terms of substantive change. It isn't a least worst type vote. And you run for local office, state congressional office, more young people now running in primaries challenging incumbent corporate Democrats and in prior elections and should remember that the farm team for democracy are local offices. And often there's nobody running against the incumbent. And thousands and thousands of local offices for city council, zoning commission, health agencies, boards of education and so forth.

Steve Scrovan (24:45)

All right. We're going to take a short break and check in with our corporate crime reporter, Rosa Mokiver. Then when we come back, we're going to learn about 50 species that can save us. Take it away, Russell.

Russell Mokhyber (24:56)

From the National Press building in Washington, D.C. this is your corporate crime reporter Morning minute for Friday, January 16, 2026. I'm Russell Mulcyber. The Trump administration is moving to roll back how aggressively the Department of Transportation enforces consumer protection rules against airlines and ticket sellers. That's according to a report from skift. In a regulatory filing published last week, the Department of Transportation said that the Office of Aviation Consumer Protection will aim to base enforcement in a fair and just manner, not on overly broad interpretations of statutes and regulations. Under the new scheme, the department said the office would issue warnings to companies that violate certain laws or statutes before pursuing any enforcement actions. It also said it would focus more on ensuring compliance with civil rights and consumer protection regulations rather than finding and penalizing entities for violations. For the corporate crime reporter, I'm Russell Mulcarber.

Steve Scrovan (25:55)

Thank you, Russell. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. I'm Steve Scrovan along with David Feldman and Ralph if we can't save ourselves. Maybe other species can.

David Feldman (26:04)

David Dino Grandoni is a reporter who covers life sciences for the Washington Post. He was part of a reporting team that was a finalist for the 2025 Pulitzer Prize in national reporting for coverage of Hurricane Helene. He previously covered the Environmental Protection Agency and wrote a daily tip sheet on energy and environmental policy. His latest work, co written in the Washington post, is titled 50 species that save Us. Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour.

Dino Grandoni (26:37)

Dino Grandoni, thank you so much for having me on.

Ralph Nader (26:41)

Welcome indeed, Dino and listeners, what you're going to hear is going to be very useful for you back home. It's going to be very useful back home for your children, for your schools and for your citizen groups. And it's really very fascinating. I pick up the Washington Post on December 28th and inside is an eight page insert with no ads. And right on the front page of this insert is pictures of animals and the headline says Species that Save Us. Explore the way animals and plants protect human health and what's at stake when species are endangered. So I'm saying to myself, what is this right out of the blue? It reminded me of a fable I wrote years ago called Animal Envy, where I explored and educated myself about all the critical interactions between the natural world of mammals, reptiles, even insects and the well being of human beings. So I want to bring this to your attention and the summary is very compelling. It says, quote, you've heard the slogans save the whales, protect our pollinators. You may have lamented the decline of polar bears for the last of the northern white rhinos, but scientists are only beginning to uncover just how much the vanishing of species as a result of climate change, habit destruction and other human interference matters for the future of humanity. Many of the ways nature helps us are straightforward. Bees fertilize our crops. Trees suck climate warming carbon dioxide out of the air. New interdisciplinary research is also revealing hidden ways nature is protecting people. Frogs deter malaria. Bats reduce the need for harmful pesticides. Wolves guard motorists from car accidents. Wait until you hear about that. And vultures protect people from dog bites and rabies. So Dino Grandoni, let me ask you this question. How did this wonderful insert come to be with such colorful pictures of Siamese crocodiles, spotted hyenas, sunflower, sea star, Pacific yew, rusty patch, bumblebee, sea otters and others? How did this come about? And was the insurp contained in any other newspapers?

Dino Grandoni (29:09)

Well, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction.

Ralph Nader (29:12)

Really.

Dino Grandoni (29:12)

This series of stories came about through a conversation I Had in the newsroom with my colleague Mark Johnson. He was telling me about this research that he had seen on vultures and the way they deter rabies in India, which you just mentioned there. And I pointed out to him there are a bunch of other examples in the scientific literature of these kind of hidden or unexpected ways that the presence of certain plants and animals in the environment helps human health and well being. And kind of we put our heads together and thought we could turn this into a series to try to explain this to people in a vivid way. And you know, at the same time the, our design department here had an interest in doing some sort of display of species, as in this kind of card form where you had a beautiful image of a plant or animal on the front and on the back some sort of description of it. And when we were talking to them, we thought like this is kind of an excellent vehicle for the story that Mark and I wanted to tell of the way the hidden ways that species help us.

Ralph Nader (30:13)

Well, let's go into some specifics here. The one that really caught my attention was the naked mole rat. You often associate any rodent with any beneficial impacts on human beings. Want to describe that?

Dino Grandoni (30:29)

Yeah, no, that's a good example. So naked mole rats, as some of your listeners might know, they're these wrinkly blind creatures that actually can live for a very long time, for three decades, which is really, really long for a rodent. And that's due in part to a chemical that they have in their bodies that seems to block cancer. So doctors are looking to and hoping to develop cancer treatments for people using what they have found in the naked mole rat. Really there are a lot of examples like this that we were able to highlight in these 50 cards that we were able to put together of different chemical compounds that are found in plants or animals that doctors and scientists have been able to extract and develop into drugs that you maybe already put into your body or that will be drugs in the future.

Ralph Nader (31:15)

And how about the Siamese crocodile?

Dino Grandoni (31:18)

That's another really good example. So the Siamese crocodile, its blood is remarkably resistant to infection from E. Coli and a bunch of other bacteria. So scientists are hoping to understand that a little bit better and use those compounds to develop future antibiotics. And as, as I'm sure you know, there's a very great need in medicine for more antibiotics as more strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria proliferate in hospitals. We just need more antibiotic weapons to battle these things.

Ralph Nader (31:54)

What about your headline for one of your sub articles called first the frogs Died, then people got sick. What do you mean by that?

Dino Grandoni (32:02)

This is a really compelling example. So earlier this year in June, I was able to go down to Panama and follow around a bunch of scientists working for the Smithsonian as they tried to reintroduce frogs in the jungles of Panama, where they had almost disappeared. So what's happened in Panama and neighboring Costa Rica over the past three decades is remarkable. There's been this precipitous decline in frogs, and that's due to the introduction of this invasive fungus that attacks the frog skin, causes them to have heart attacks and die. So the frogs have been kind of. Really, many species have been, like, completely wiped out from this region in Central America that is really, really rich or had been really, really rich in amphibian diversity. That's a tragedy in and of itself. But it's actually had a really profound human impact, too, because as the frogs declined, there have been fewer tadpoles to eat mosquito larvae and too fewer frogs to eat actual mosquitoes. And there's then been a measured increase in malaria cases in the counties where frogs have declined. Scientists have been able to see this kind of wave of malaria sweep over Costa Rica and Panama right behind the wave of the fungus sweeping over that same region. So it's this kind of really remarkable way that frogs, in a way that we didn't know, that was completely hidden from us, had actually helped protect the people in that region from this terrible disease.

Ralph Nader (33:30)

This one has a long history, listeners, of success coming out of the plant called the Madagascar periwinkle.

Dino Grandoni (33:37)

Yeah, the Madagascar periwinkle, which many people have in their gardens. It's a flower that you've probably. Many your listeners have probably seen. It's this remarkable plant. It's been used for a long time in traditional medicine to ease muscle pain and other ailments. And now these African flowers in recent years have been used. The organic compounds in them have been used to treat cancer, including leukemia in children.

Ralph Nader (34:01)

Well, we don't want to encourage Trump with this one, but tell us about the Greenland shark.

Dino Grandoni (34:07)

The Greenland shark is a remarkable animal. It's capable of living for more than 250 years. It swims, as the name suggests, off the coast of deep Greenland. Very, very deep. And it is, in fact, the longest living vertebrate on Earth, as far as we know. So geneticists are looking at this animal's DNA to try to understand its secrets for longevity. And it probably has something to do with its metabolism and the way it's. The way the shark's able to Control its own metabolism, helps it live for a very, very long time.

Ralph Nader (34:39)

Here's one that relates to people who've been taking opiate drugs for severe pain. This is a sea snail called the geography Cone.

Dino Grandoni (34:49)

Yeah, there have been many attempts by doctors in the past to develop non opioid drugs to treat severe pain, with the obvious downside of opioid drugs being addiction independence. So one of the few successes in this arena is a drug derived from the venom of these sneeze nails that's been an effective painkiller.

Ralph Nader (35:11)

And what about this cute little bird called the island canary?

Dino Grandoni (35:15)

Yeah, the island canary is an interesting one too. It was once assumed that the brains of adult humans and other adult vertebrates couldn't regrow their neurons so that damage the head would be permanent. That's kind of the fear, obviously. But these birds actually show that parts of their brains, these birds can actually grow parts of their brains in the spring in order to learn new songs, which actually suggests potential pathways for healing brain injuries. So again, scientists and doctors are looking at the brains of these birds, trying to develop some new therapies that they can apply to people.

Ralph Nader (35:46)

And what about this California two spot octopus?

Dino Grandoni (35:50)

Our readers love octopuses. So as your listeners may know, these are invertebrates that are incredibly intelligent. With this particular octopus, scientists have found that they're actually able to use RNA to remodel their brains to endure fluctuations in water temperature. So scientists are studying that to see if that same process can fix disease causing mutations in people.

Ralph Nader (36:15)

You know, in my book Animal Envy, I point out some remarkable capabilities of detection. Like moths, ordinary moth can detect hundreds of yards away. And scientists are saying how can we learn from that in order to improve our detection technologies. And of course whales, sharks have been able to detect little amounts of blood, for example, or tiny noise, context of whales, little, little drops of blood from long distances. So that's another area. Let's talk about a couple that people are more familiar with. The brown bear. What can the brown bear teach us?

Dino Grandoni (36:51)

Yeah, a lot of us are familiar with brown bears or grizzly bears, which is a type of brown bear. And these are, you know, the kind of fact that everyone knows about these bears is that they hibernate. But what they might not know is that in order to avoid blood clots and other elements that would normally afflict people who spend a long time in bed, these bears are actually have compounds in their blood that help prevent that sort of clotting. So cardiologists are sampling bare blood in order to see if they can Develop new and safer blood thinning medications that can again be used in people.

Ralph Nader (37:24)

What about the buffalo known as the American bison? Wiped out by hunters, but they're making a comeback.

Dino Grandoni (37:31)

Yeah, when Europeans arrived, they went on a campaign to almost eradicate the bison. Unfortunately, that enough were saved that we were able to repopulate significant parts or some parts of the American west with these animals. And what we've been finding is, that's been happening is that buffalo can not only renew prairies with their dung, but they're also renewable. Really good at battling climate change. By compressing the soil, that helps prevent carbon dioxide from seeping into the air. So they kind of are almost allies in our fight against climate change.

Ralph Nader (38:03)

How about the African savannah elephant?

Dino Grandoni (38:06)

People love elephants. You know, with such big bodies, you would expect elephants to get a lot of cancer because they have more cells in their body. So you'd naturally think the probability of a elephant getting cancer would be higher than it would be for a human. But in fact, they don't. They actually very rarely get cancer. And the reason is that they're protected by a gene that causes cells with DNA damage to die off. And scientists are studying this particular genetic defense for insights into how to fight human cancer.

Ralph Nader (38:34)

A lot of these species, you know, are endangered, and some of them have been on the brink of extinction. So the benefits cannot be taken advantage of by scientists. And I want you to talk about an incredible boomerang. When China killed millions of the Eurasian tree sparrow in the 1950s. The Eurasian tree sparrow? Yeah.

Dino Grandoni (38:57)

The Chinese, in the middle of the last century regarded sparrows, among other animals, as a pest. And they went on this campaign to kill millions of them because they were suspected of eating grains and cutting into crop yields. But what they didn't know was that those birds also preyed on insects that without the sparrows around, locusts surged and actually contributed to famine in that country. So whereas the Chinese government thought that they were actually helping to feed people by killing sparrows, it ended up actually making people go hungry. And I think that's a really good point you touched on there. Is that what we have in these cards and in our stories at the Washington Post? Here are examples of the ways we know, the ways that scientists have uncovered of how plants and animals help us. But we don't know what we don't know. There are likely numerous, numerous other ways that plants and animals are protecting human well being that we don't know. And we may very well never know if some of these species go extinct.

Ralph Nader (39:53)

You know, it's amazing the millions of students who took biology in undergraduate, none of this was ever touched on at all. But some people will find you're connecting wolves with reducing car crashes. Can you make that clear for us?

Dino Grandoni (40:09)

Yeah. So that was one of the other big stories we did in this series. After I went to Panama to report on the frogs in December, I went to Minnesota here in the United States to report on wolves. So as you and your, your listeners may know, wolves like bison were basically eradicated from most of the United States with really only a pocket left in northern Minnesota that kind of later spread out through several other Great Lake states like Wisconsin and Michigan, including the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone. That happened as well. But what researchers have noticed over the past several decades since like the 1980s is that as wolves have repopulated out of Minnesota into Wisconsin, they've actually led to a decrease in car accidents. You may ask, like what, what's the connection there? Well, it turns out that wolves like to prowl along roads and trails that humans carve into the landscape. And by doing so, according to this theory, they deter deer from going near those roads and from crossing those roads, which in turn leads to a decrease in deer vehicle collisions. And that's something that economists have been able to measure over Wisconsin as wolves have repopulated the northern portion of that state. It's that wolves have this enormous economic benefit to people that they don't even know about.

Ralph Nader (41:28)

Before we go on to the more detested species like hyenas and snakes, how can people get a hold of this collection of information both online and in print? Can you tell us?

Dino Grandoni (41:41)

Yeah, well, online you'll be able to find it on our website if you search for my byline Dino Grandoni, or if you just searched for Species that save us and wolves or frogs or vultures. Those are the three main stories. And all these articles appeared in print on December 28. I believe that if, if you contact the Post, they will be able to provide you with this section. And what we're really hoping to do is with the cards to be able to print and distribute them. I don't know with 100% certainty whether that's going to happen yet, but that's, that's what we'd like to do.

Ralph Nader (42:17)

It'd be good to put this out in print form like a little paperback could be used in schools, for example. Let's talk about snakes. Dino. We're talking with Dino Grandoni, one of the co authors of this marvelous collection called Species that Save Us. What are the benefits of snakes. Snakes kill hundreds of thousands of people around the world every year.

Dino Grandoni (42:39)

Yes, snakes, like wolves, are detested in many parts. And that's not to diminish the fact that snake bites are a real detriment to human health. But what scientists have found with regard to once, at least one species, the ball python, is that when it ingests prey, when it, you know, swallows. Swallows up some animal, it actually can enlarge its heart in order to be able to digest that oversized kill. So doctors want to understand the genes behind that cardiac feet. How are they able to grow their heart so that they can better treat heart problems in people?

Ralph Nader (43:13)

And what about another detested species, the spotted hyena?

Dino Grandoni (43:18)

The hyena example is a bit like the vulture example. By feasting on dead animals that exist outside of cities in Africa, hyenas have actually been able to cut down on cases of anthrax and other bacterial infections that are caused by contact with, you know, decaying carcasses. So hyenas, vultures, those other kind of scavengers, they're kind of a cleanup crew in a lot of parts of the world, cleaning up these carcasses, eating these carcasses that could otherwise be the cause of a vector of spreading disease.

Ralph Nader (43:47)

Well, we could say, you know, viruses and bacteria have killed hundreds of millions of people over the centuries, but those are not considered sentient creatures. But you do have a recognition of some insects that are really devastated. One of them is called the emerald ash boar, and it's almost wiped out white ash trees in the United States. It's almost unstoppable. But what's the benefit of the white ash that is being attacked by another species?

Dino Grandoni (44:17)

Yeah, I mean, the decline of white ash is really depressing to me in a personal way. I grew up in upstate New York, and my backyard is. Back home is full of dead ash trees. Just you know, really upsetting to see this species that you grew up with just basically vanish within. Within a generation, within my lifetime. Ash trees have been attacked in recent decades by this boar, this beetle that you just mentioned, and the decline of ash trees. Ash trees provide data in cities and actually help filter out air pollution. So the decline in ash trees has. Scientists working in Canada, for instance, have found that there have been negative health effects to the decline in ash trees because of this effect they have on filtering pollution.

Ralph Nader (45:01)

I think this would be a great presentation at the next annual convention of social studies teachers, which is going to be in Chicago. You know, maybe the sponsors of this project of yours can Rent a booth. It's so motivating, it's almost exciting. The most moribunds because of its spectacular revelations that people at a very young age were not exposed to. You know, we grew up in an industrial society to conquer nature. They would say that you have to conquer nature. And they never understood that nature once abused and fight back very, very violently as climate disruption and climate violence is teaching us. Day after day around the world with virulent fires, out of control drought, floods, hurricanes, sea level rises and intolerable heat. Temperatures going to 120, 125 degrees. Some of the big cities in Asia and Africa. So tell us, what's your next step here? You're entitled to be anticipated as someone who's not going to drop the ball.

Dino Grandoni (46:07)

Yeah, I mean, I hope that we're able to publish these cards. What's been really nice about this series is seeing the response from teachers. I've had some reach out to me saying that they wish to use some of this material in a classroom, which has been really exciting to hear. I think the next step for me is to just continue reporting on some of these examples that we've highlighted here and finding new ones. I cover biodiversity and wildlife for the Post in addition to other areas of life science. And I'm always eager to find these connections between human well being and the well being of nature and trying to describe them in ways that are compelling to readers that get them to care about protecting nature and also finding those instances because I want to be objective here of when human well being and the well being in nature might be in conflict and that might involve some tough decisions that we as a society or policymakers have to make.

Ralph Nader (46:56)

We've been talking with Dino Grandoni, a Washington Post reporter, on his being a co author of this insert, Species that Save Us. I have two contrarian questions. One is you favor an extinction of any species as having no redeemable value whatsoever, such as malarial mosquitoes.

Dino Grandoni (47:16)

I love that question and I've had other people ask me that too. Scientists have brought forward really compelling arguments for getting rid of or driving to extinction certain species. But I think it makes sense to treat that sort of proposition with a lot of prudence and a lot of care before we actually went ahead and did that. So I think you offered one of the more compelling examples, which are malaria carrying mosquitoes, of which there are many species. Many species can carry malaria. But there's a compelling argument to make that the benefit of eradicating malaria and eradicating the vector of malaria from Earth would have this enormous benefit to humanity that would outweigh the cost ecologically of not having mosquitoes in the environment. That said, there might be avenues to eradicating malaria that actually don't involve. That actually don't involve killing the mosquitoes themselves, because malaria is transmitted more specifically by a parasite that lives inside the mosquitoes. So one can imagine eradicating that particular parasite, which is called the Plasmodium. If you can eradicate that organism that lives in mosquitoes, then you will have eradicated malaria. And there are scientists that are kind of looking at this or taking both approaches of trying to use gene editing to eradicate mosquitoes themselves and also potentially using gene editing to eradicate the parasite that lives in the mosquitoes. So eradicating that parasite might be the safer option. It would still involve killing off a species because that parasite is a species. Another good example of an animal that scientists have talked about killing off is called the New World screwworm, which a lot of US policymakers are worried might come into the United States. It attacks cattle and it also can attack people. Yeah, there's a compelling case to make that there isn't much ecological value to that animal and that it would be worth eradicating. But like I said, it's a sort of question that really needs to be treated with a lot of care and prudence. Obviously, killing off a species is not something one ought to do rashly.

Ralph Nader (49:14)

Well, it touches on the bigger subject of invasive species, which can be pretty devastating. The local species, sort of endangerment within the species universe. Before we go to Steve for a question, Dino out of the Post, commercial side, resist not having ads in this eight page section. I can imagine some big animal welfare organizations would love to advertise this.

Dino Grandoni (49:40)

You know, I honestly don't know that. Well, you know, at the Post and at other newspapers, there's a firewall that exists between the editorial side, which is what I'm on, and the business and advertising side. I don't really know what went into any decisions about whether to put ads in this section or not. I'm not really sure.

Ralph Nader (49:58)

Well, whatever prompted it, it's a good decision because it's a very clean eight pages of substance, colorful pictures and compelling narrative. Let's go to Steve.

Steve Scrovan (50:10)

Dino, I want to keep going through these different cards because it's just fascinating. But I want to ask you about. There seems to be an anti science movement in the current administration. Biggest example I can think of at the top of my head is the recent ruling by the EPA that they would no longer consider human lives lost and only consider the cost to companies as far as their rulemaking goes. And it seems like these cards that you want to get into teachers hands in schools are a good counterweight at least on the grassroots level to educate people to against this anti science bias. I assume that's part of the motivation.

Dino Grandoni (50:55)

Yeah, I mean our motivation as with any story, is to inform readers about what's happening in their world. You know, we don't come at these stories with any particular policy prescription. As a reporter, I just want to let people know how their world works and why it is actually important to keep around and keep, not only keep around species, but make sure to have thriving communities of plants and animals around us because of the various ways that they help protect us.

Steve Scrovan (51:22)

And now can I ask you about the bar headed goose?

Ralph Nader (51:25)

Go ahead.

Steve Scrovan (51:26)

Yes, sir, tell us about the bar headed goose.

Dino Grandoni (51:29)

So that goose, it's in Asia and it migrates like a lot of geese do, but in its way during its annual migration is the, are the Himalayas, which are the tallest mountains on earth. So they fly over them in a low oxygen environment. And dentists are studying their hemoglobin in their blood to see how they're able to survive in those low oxygen environments. And that could, you know, have different applications to, to human beings too.

David Feldman (51:55)

This is fascinating, Dino. Thank you. You've kind of touched on this, but maybe you can expand further. I was reading somewhere that they have olive groves now in Great Britain as humans unfortunately are adapting to climate catastrophe, as Ralph calls it. Can you talk more about the kind of evolution you're seeing, how animals are evolving to cope with climate catastrophe? And is there anything more we can learn to help us evolve as opposed to get off fossil fuels?

Dino Grandoni (52:30)

Yeah, you know, there's a few different ways that animals can cope with climate change. One would be to move to a different environment if that animal is able to do so. One of the species we highlighted in the cards, for instance, is the North Atlantic right whale, which is this critically, critically endangered whale that lives in the North Atlantic. Like the name suggests, there's only a few hundred of them left. Whales are really important because of their ability to sequester carbon in their bodies. When they die, they sink to the bottom of the ocean and they are so large that that actually helps sequester carbon out of the atmosphere. The one thing that we've noticed with these whales is that they've kind of moved into different areas of the Atlantic over time. And one of the reasons some scientists think this is the case is because of climate change, they're seeking out their prey, which are tiny little zooplankton. And that zooplankton is popping up in different spots because of climate change. So we've seen them swim to different environments and that actually can be a really dangerous thing for them because they might be swimming into areas that are fished for lobster and they end up getting tangled in the ropes that are used to do that. But, you know, whales have the luxury of being able to move, right? A lot of other animals being able to swim, and they have a huge ocean to swim in. Other animal populations aren't as mobile and end up getting sort of trapped when temperatures rise and kind of run out of habitat in which to live. And as you can imagine with the plant, plants are even less mobile and they can succumb to the effects of climate change severely like that too. So, yeah, creatures can move and over time, evolution will help them adapt their bodies to changing conditions. But the question is, will they have enough time to do so or are temperatures rising so fast or will they rise so fast that they're not. Many animals aren't going to be able to adapt.

Ralph Nader (54:16)

Before we conclude Dino, we're talking with Dino Grandoni of the Washington Post, one of the authors of this wonderful eight page insert called 50 Species that Save Us explore the ways animals and plants protect human health and what's at stake when species are endangered. You want to tell us before we conclude how they can get this both online and in print?

Dino Grandoni (54:40)

Yeah, these stories, the one on the frogs, the one on the vultures and the one on the wolves, as well as this display of 50 different species that that help protect us is all available on online washingtonpost.com I would just encourage readers to search for a Species that Save Us Washington Post, and they'll be able to find it. The print section appeared on December 28, and like I said, there's some discussion here about trying to print these cards themselves and distributing them in some way.

Ralph Nader (55:07)

But again, can people order reprints in volume from the Washington Post?

Dino Grandoni (55:12)

So, yeah, if your readers are interested in getting a reprint of this section, I encourage them to Visit our website, Washington Post.com reprints-permissions or you can just search Google, another search engine for Washington Post reprints. And similarly, all these articles that we've been talking about, the one on wolves, the one on vultures, the one on frogs, as well as this beautiful card display that the design team here put together, are all available on the washingtonpost.com.

Ralph Nader (55:38)

As well, there you are, listeners. Go for it. You won't regret distributing this in your neighborhood and your community. It's a great discussion starter for very important objectives. Thank you.

Dino Grandoni (55:51)

Gino Grandoni, thank you so much for having me on.

Steve Scrovan (55:55)

I want to thank our guests again, Dino Grandoni for those of you listening on the radio, that's our show for you podcast listeners, stay tuned for some bonus material we call the Wrap up featuring Francesco de Santis with in case you haven't heard, a transcript of this program will appear on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour substack site soon after the episode is posted.

David Feldman (56:15)

Subscribe to us on our Ralph Nader Radio Hour YouTube channel and for Ralph's weekly column. It's free@nader.org for more from Russell Mokhyber is at corporatecrimereporter.com the American Museum of.

Steve Scrovan (56:28)

Tort Law has gone virtual. You can visit tortmuseum.org to explore the exhibits, take a virtual tour and learn about iconic tort cases from history.

David Feldman (56:37)

To order your copy of the Capitol Hill Citizen Democracy Dies in Broad Daylight. It's@capitol hillcitizen.com and remember to continue the.

Steve Scrovan (56:47)

Conversation after each show. You can go to the comments section@ralphnaderradiohour.com and post a comment or question on this week's episode.

David Feldman (56:54)

The producers of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour are Jimmy Lee Wirt, Hannah Feldman and Matthew Marin. Our executive producer is Alan Minsky.

Steve Scrovan (57:03)

Our theme music, Stand Up, Rise up, was written and performed by Kemp Harris. Our proofreader is Elizabeth Solomon.

David Feldman (57:09)

Join us next week on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Thank you, Ralph.

Ralph Nader (57:14)

Thank you. Let's have more radio stations listeners carrying the show. We all want to reach more people.

John Crumb (57:25)

This is John Crumb show with a special KPFK Politics or Pedagogy commentary. On kpfk, you hear more than a sound bite. That's education. That's our mission. Please make your contribution online@kpfk.org K the Legacy of MLK. The radio bulletin went something like this. Just in from Memphis, Tennessee. Martin Luther King Jr. Has been shot. There is no word on his condition. More news as it becomes available. The next bulletin said he was seriously wounded, then that he was dead. The three evils in society that King attacked were racism, militarism and materialism. I have a dream are the words that most people remember. Not as well known is MLK's speech at Riverside Church. Exactly a year to the day of his assassination. King was opposed to the war in Vietnam. Public denunciation from mainstream corporate media followed with Time magazine joining the critics. President Lyndon Baines Johnson led the attack on him. King was a minister who took guidance from a higher authority. His influence is widespread. Consider Octavia Butler. Her grave in Altadena has been visited by many people. Mountain View Cemetery is saved from the devastating Eaton Fire. King's message resonates in her novel kindred. In 1968, Senator Robert F. Kennedy was a candidate for president.

Dino Grandoni (59:12)

I have some very sad news for.

Steve Scrovan (59:14)

All of you, and that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight in Memphis.

John Crumb (59:24)

Nearly two months to the day. RFK was assassinated in Los Angeles. He had just won the California primary. Abraham, Martin and John commemorates Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King and John F. Kennedy. This is John Crumshow with a commentary. Please make your contribution online@kpfk.org I thought.

Dino Grandoni (59:48)

I saw him walking up over the hill. Hammond Martin and John.