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- [00:01]
Alan Minsky
Programs is background briefing.
- [00:03]
Steve Scrovan
And I'm glad he's back on air there.
- [00:05]
Chris Townsend
I heard some things that I didn't always agree with, but I like the Tom Hartman show and I think it's
- [00:12]
Steve Scrovan
a great station and really needs more
- [00:15]
Alan Minsky
support in these days when independent radio is under attack. Hi, I'm Amy Goodman, host of Democracy
- [00:22]
Chris Townsend
now, asking you to support kpfk.
- [00:25]
Alan Minsky
We.
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Chris Townsend
One of the best ways you can do it is simply by becoming a sustainer, pledging $10 or more each month. In that way, you help to protect this independent radio station. And sign up today.
- [00:37]
Ralph Nader
You can join KPFK's Sustainer program by logging on to kpfk.org 90.7 FM, KPFK, Los Angeles.
- [00:46]
Chris Townsend
This is Ben Cohn, the ice cream guy.
- [00:49]
Alan Minsky
And you're listening to my hero, Ralph Nader.
- [00:53]
Chris Townsend
The Ralph Nader Radio Hour.
- [00:55]
Ralph Nader
Stand up. Stand up.
- [00:57]
Steve Scrovan
You've been sitting way too long. Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. My name is Steve Scrovan, along with my co host, David Feldman. Hello, David.
- [01:09]
Alan Minsky
Hello, Steve.
- [01:10]
Steve Scrovan
And of course, as always, our producer, Hannah Feldman. Hello, Hannah.
- [01:13]
Hannah Feldman
Hello, Steve.
- [01:15]
Steve Scrovan
And it's not a Ralph Nader Radio Hour without the man of the hour, Ralph Nader. Hello, Ralph.
- [01:20]
Ralph Nader
Hello, everybody.
- [01:22]
Steve Scrovan
We have a great program today. The 30th convention of the AFL CIO is set for June 7th to the 10th in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The AFL CIO represents about two thirds of the US Organized workforce. And according to our first guest, Chris Townsend, very few active union members even know this convention is happening. What does this say about the AFL CIO's relevance to working Americans? Chris Townsend has been a union member and a labor leader for nearly 50 years. We'll speak to him about the decline of the labor movement and what needs to be done to revive it. In the second half of the show, we jump back into the gerrymandering wars. For this, we turn to Lee Drutmann, senior fellow in the political reform program at New America, where he focuses on electoral reform, Congress, and Democratic health. Redistricting is a hot topic right now. Following the Supreme Court's recent decision in Louisiana v. Calais. State legislatures across the country are pitching new electoral maps in several primary races have been thrown into chaos. Critics of this wave of partisan redistricting have called it an existential crisis. But Lee Drutmann argues that gerrymandering is as American as apple pie and drone attacks. We'll speak to him about the myth of fair electoral districts, the voting system we actually live with, and the potential of proportional representation. And to close out the Show. Ralph has a number of news items he'd like to draw your attention to. Hey everybody, we're going to break away from the show for a couple minutes. This is Steve Scrovan, co host of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Because KPFK is in fundrive and this is listener supported radio, it's not corporate radio. And if you want to hear more shows like the Ralph Nader Reedy Wower and hear more guests like we have on the Ralph Nady radio hour, call 818-985-5735 and give generously to any level. $100 level, $50 level, $120 level, $200 level, whatever level you can afford. It keeps the lights on here and keeps. In an era where local news is dying, we are the last lights on here. So that's 985-818-985. KPFK 818-985-5735. I'm here with our executive producer Alan Minsky. Hello, Alan.
- [03:46]
Alan Minsky
Would anything be a greater height of irony if we had. And you're listening to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour underwritten by General Motors. And that I think would unlikely to happen. But let's face it, I don't think there are many multinational corporations or corporations shy of businesses like maybe Patagonia or Ben and Jerry's that would consider anything like that. And the reality is, of course, Ralph Nader as a voice in the society reliant upon the underwriting of corporations, would be a silent voice. But institutions like KPFK supported and in existence because of you, the listeners. And the support of only you, the listeners, allows us to have actually the honest, basically ongoing region wide town hall dialogue that we have with the citizens of Southern California and people from all around the world in the region offering up their thoughts. And the people who really have the greatest amount of insight, they end up with the loudest voices. So Ralph Nader ends up with a radio show here because nobody has more insight than Ralph Nader.
- [04:50]
Steve Scrovan
That's right. And upon the death of Ted Turner a couple of weeks ago, I heard something I had not known about Ralph. And. And I know a lot about Ralph after the last 20 years. Is that when CNN started in 1980, he was one of the first correspondents that Ted Turner hired to do the show. And guess what? Some of the corporate sponsors were not happy with that. So it didn't last very long. But we've got Ralph. We've got Ralph here at KPFK. And that number to give is 818-98-5, 5735. That's 818-985-KPFK. Because you're not going to get them on CNN, especially now if the Ellisons ever take over.
- [05:33]
Alan Minsky
No, especially that will not be the case. And yeah, by the way, enjoy the last final days of CNN and CNN because it's going to be very different very soon. Much like cbs.
- [05:41]
Steve Scrovan
It's going to be, we know cnn.
- [05:44]
Chris Townsend
Yeah.
- [05:45]
Alan Minsky
So, so let's get back to the show and but right now, calling right now, calling now and and maybe call in with a matching pledge. Challenge the listeners in the second half of the show to match your pledge. Call in now. Support the Ralph Nader Radio Hour, 818-985-5735.
- [06:01]
Ralph Nader
This is Ralph Nader and KPFK is in fund drive this month. If you want to continue to hear the program and others like it, please listen to Alan and Steve and give generously. Also ask some people of means to give generously. They need the truth, too.
- [06:20]
Steve Scrovan
And that number to give is 818-985-5735. That's 818-985-Kpfk. What's going on with the union movement and what can be done to revive it?
- [06:33]
Hannah Feldman
HANNAH Chris Townsend has been a union member and labor leader for more than 45 years. He was most recently the Amalgamated Transit Union International Union organizing director. Previously, he was an international representative and political action director for the United Electrical Workers Union and he has held local positions in both the SEIU and ufcw. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Chris townsend, thank you.
- [07:02]
Ralph Nader
Listeners should know you're going to get a narrative that almost never comes over radio and TV in the USA on the state of organized labor, unorganized labor, and what needs to be done about it from Chris Townsend. I grew up. Chris, at the peak of the labor movement, at the peak it had, 34% of all workers were in unions. There was a national radio program paid for and run by unions called the Voice of Labor that had a program every week with huge people, a volume of listeners. It was a go to program. At that time. The unions all had print newspapers. They had a lot of pictures of the heads of the union like the coal miners union, but they at least had a communication mechanism and some of the better unions like United Electrical Workers used it for education mobilization, raising expectation levels and demands by the rank and file name. Now we're going to get into the dismal state of organized labor. I mentioned they reached a peak of over 33% and now they're down to 10%. Only one out of ten workers in America belongs to a union. The majority of those union workers are represented by the AFL CIO. The AFL CIO on 16th street headquarters, just a couple football fields distance from the White House, has become a tail t a I l of the Democratic Party. I know that from experience. We tried successfully to get them to back a real invigorated Labor Day a couple years ago where it focused on workers events, connection with citizen groups all over the country, focused on a compact for the American workers. Really exciting. But as is their practice, they passed it by the Democratic National Committee which said no, they couldn't control what would be said at these local meetings on Labor Day around the country. So that was another bit of evidence that this is not an independent labor movement. Now you have hammered that home again and again. And you had an article in April and it was called if the AFL CIO had a convention, would anybody notice? Well, they are having their every three year convention in Minneapolis June 7th to June 10th. What do you think's going to happen and not happen?
- [09:35]
Chris Townsend
Yeah, the AFL CIO convention in Minneapolis is almost upon us. I conducted the start of my article. Ralph was I conducted a straw poll of my own and at the time I wrote the article I had spoken to 30 people. By now I've spoken to more than twice that many. And virtually nobody even knows that there's a convention coming. And that didn't surprise me really because there's been no advertising. There's no nothing remarkable happening. There's no plans being promulgated at least that I can discover. And this is part and parcel of the existing federation leadership. And recall for listeners the existing leadership of the AFL CIO beyond Liz Schuler and Fred Redmond. And the actual staff is really the consists of the heads of the larger unions and a few smaller in the federation executive council itself. The AFL does represent probably 65% of all unionized workers in the United States. And in any case, you know, this convention is deliberately kept secret. It's what I describe as sort of a hideout strategy. It enables the leadership to not have to discuss or take positions that for them are difficult, such as what is the labor movement going to do to confront the rampant lawlessness and criminality of the Trump regime? What is the labor movement going to do to address the rampaging inflation that is eating up living standards? There's no wage policy, there's no bargaining policy of the federation. What are they going to do to address the ongoing national health care crisis and disaster, which is far from being solved. Obamacare at best a band aid. And what are they doing about the crisis of unorganized. As you point out, the density of union membership continues to sink. And I think that this gathering comes and the very distinct impression that I'm given as a close observer for decades now is that the leadership wants to sort of convene it, hurry it up and get out of town and move on. And this is what I refer to as the hideout strategy. It's like they want to wait for Trump to go by and attack somebody else or big business.
- [11:44]
Ralph Nader
Well, it could be an occasion for throwing down the gauntlet to the war criminal and domestic criminal. Donald Trump, corrupt, abuser of labor, anti worker, broke the contracts between the federal government and the government employees union in the first weeks of his regime last year. And he is an abuser of women. He's a liar, a thief, a crook. The most corrupt presidency in American history, hands down. Giving out contracts in return for this and cutting deals and cryptocurrency and enriching his family and himself. So this is a perfect opportunity. He's like the Democrats before him, frozen the federal minimum wage at $7 and a quarter. Over the years, the FL CIO has been for a higher minimum wage, but no muscle. Even when the Democrats controlled Congress, no muscle to get it through. It's been frozen since 2009. 2009, $7.25 an hour. Imagine some states have bypassed and raised it, like California, Connecticut, et cetera. But by and large, I don't know any progressive issue that the FL CIO is not really authentically and to the limit pushing for. They certainly aren't pushing to reverse the notorious anti labor law, the Taft Hartley act of 1946, the most anti union law in the entire western world. Tell our listeners about that one.
- [13:20]
Chris Townsend
Yeah, the Taft Hartley Act. Well, first of all, Ralph, you'd be spot on with your analysis of what the AFL is not doing. And again, that dovetails with what I describe as the hideout strategy. You know, to have that convention with as little fanfare as possible and then skedaddle. But in terms of the issues and Taft Hartley, it remains a linchpin of the assault on organized labor. It's the origination point of the so called right to work laws that permeate more than half of our states. It's also, it provides, you know, incredible flexibility by whatever administration to involve itself and stop strikes. It limits what we can do with strikes. It has tremendous impact on our Ability to organize. And this is the linchpin. I mean, the labor movement finds itself, I would submit, with the leadership disinterested in going out and organizing the unorganized. But even for those who do, and there are some, the laws, Taft Hartley primary among them, provide such a minefield that we have to run through that our ability to organize on any scale for decades has been stopped. And therefore we are condemned to sort of a perpetual shrinking size, resources and whatnot. And it's actually dovetail for listeners. An awful lot might help for folks to figure out how or why this is happening is that the labor movement is systematically being converted from trade union fighting organizations, membership driven fighting organizations, to harmless, not for profit organizations. And this is sort of today's administrative layer of trade union leader that don't see anything wrong with that. But that doesn't help anyone in the shop, in the office, in the workplace. And it doesn't help anyone looking to the labor movement for something better, better treatment, better wages, better benefit, better conditions, better health and safety in the workplace. It does nothing on that front.
- [15:12]
Ralph Nader
Well, you write of 70 years. This has been going on for a long time, this decline, quote, 70 years of drift, decline, membership loss, destruction of most accepted union standards in the industries and loss of most loyalty from or influence among the broad masses of working people. End quote. Now there are some bright lights. There are some efforts to organize Amazon warehouses and Starbucks stores around the country. The polls show that unions have a favorability rating of almost 65% of the people. That's at a high point. And a lot of white collar workers, including health care, big hospital employees, are supporting efforts. But still overall, the number of union members has been declining. And of course with the onset of Silicon Valley, vigorously anti union and the spread of AI which carries forth the anti union displacement dogma on steroids. It doesn't look good in terms of the future. So what do you think should be done here? Are you in favor of launching it with a massive picketing of the FL CIO headquarters in Washington by workers?
- [16:31]
Chris Townsend
Well, I'm going to answer your question. You raise very key points, Ralph. And I'll answer with a bit of an anecdote which I think illustrates all of the problem, which is listeners wouldn't know this, but I played a key role in the launch of the Starbucks organizing, which is a long story otherwise. I started an organizing school when I was at ATU and we were the incubator, so to speak, for that thing. Richard Bensinger, a legendary organizer, was the key technician of that campaign and a young woman, Jazz Brisack, was the lead barista in that. And that's become a historic. It ended today. The Starbucks organizing has exceeded the wildest second place in terms of its reach. Not necessarily in the total number of workers, but in its geographic range over 700 stores having won NLRP elections. Well, that being said, I have contacted and spoken to high level people in organizing departments and international and national union presidents over five years now, offering to explain to them how it is this small group of people moved what turned into this fantastic successful campaign. Successful in the sense that we launched it and we got a contagion effect amongst a very eager demographic of workers who want organization. So I've made that plea with the exception of my union ue not a single other union has agreed for me to provide a one hour free free zoom briefing on how we did that. Only with an eye towards them first of all, learning more about it and perhaps adopting or experimenting with some of the things that we did. One might think that this labor movement in its given decline would possess amongst its leadership some degree of curiosity about some remarkable successful campaigns such as Starbucks. And my conclusion is there is next to no curiosity. And I think today's condition of the labor movement and frankly are almost negligible. New organizing proves that. And I don't know how, absent real pressure on some of these unions, how that can be remedied. It's remarkable to me. I've never seen this. Even in darker times or equally dark times under Reagan and whatnot, there were still amongst many of the unions a curiosity. They would look for ways to try something new, push forward, take a different route. I, I don't see any of it today.
- [18:57]
Ralph Nader
Well, part of it is the union leaders are part of the oligarchy or plutocracy themselves. Explain that.
- [19:05]
Chris Townsend
Well, yes, and I, folks who know me will know that I'm prone to repeat what I'm going to say here, which is folks have to realize that the labor movement in the United States is by world historical all time standards, it's the most financially wealthy labor movement in the history of the universe in terms of the business union model that we have is very, very good, very, very keen at collecting dues, collecting savings, shepherding them, buying buildings, having investments, many hundreds of billions of dollars in the coffers of the various unions. But of course the spending priorities of what these organizations are then going to do to spend that money, one of the primary things that they do is inflate the salaries of the upper leadership. And I'LL say it. We had a Rubicon crossed here recently that even I thought was a little bit astonishing. I mean, Chris Townsend has an astonished look on his face these days. That's something. Our electrician, Jim, in the IBEW for the first time now pays its president over $1 million a year. We've seen salaries in the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars per year for high national international union leaders. Yes, we've seen that pathology for decades. I'd never seen a million dollars a year union president, and I don't know the exact circumstances, but I beg her that there's nobody doing electrical work out in the field who's making a million dollars a year.
- [20:32]
Ralph Nader
Well, you belong to one of the most progressive honest labor unions for years, United Electrical Workers, and they have a tradition where the head of the union doesn't make any more than the top electrician makes in the rank and file.
- [20:49]
Chris Townsend
Yeah, correct. It's in the constitution of ue. It actually says that of the three titled officers, none can earn more than a member would earn out in the field. Now, of course, UE is a very diverse union. Seven different sectors of industrial sectors represented by the UE membership. So it's today, I'm going to venture a guess. I want to say that the UE3 officers earn, I think it's about $75,000 a year. They work 100 hours a week. They no longer have a pension. We had to give up the pension, couldn't afford the pension, thanks to all the legislative attacks on pensions. So it's a very modest salary. You know, they have a health care plan, but it's no easy skate. And of course they would have thousands of members in UE that earn more in salary than the officers themselves. So that's the way it should be. And I'll say for folks that that used to be a much more common happening, that you would have these unions realizing that if you allowed your leadership salaries to be become so inflated, so remote and far away from where your members were. It was a lot of things. It was not only going to be a political problem, but it also is a problem in terms of internal democratic functioning. I mean, a worker, an ordinary worker. I, I gave the IBEW example. Let's continue with that. That's Liz Schuller, the head of the AFL cio. That's also her union. Just for full attribution. But what is a rank and file electrician to do out there if they decide they want to run for president when you're running against a millionaire Every year this guy is again and again benighted as a millionaire just with his salary. How are you going to mount a campaign if you make 80,000, maybe you hit 100,000. I mean, it's undemocratic on its face just as far as that goes.
- [22:35]
Ralph Nader
But I want to read you a quote. The evidence shows that the collapse of the organized labor movement is not due to the existence of new problems which defy solution such as hostile legislation or automation, but because of certain inherent policies and weaknesses of the movement itself. End quote. That was spoken in 1962, Chris Townsend, by the general counsel of the United Electrical Workers Union, 1962. Can you explain that in today's conditions and terms with NAFTA and AI and all that?
- [23:15]
Chris Townsend
Yeah, UE has never been a member of the afl. It was a CIO affiliate and then it was driven out during the incredible repression of the McCarthy period and has been an independent union ever since. But once the AFL CIO came together, which any sober observer would conclude quickly that it was a surrender of the formerly militant CIO elements back to a very state and conservative afl. And I think the evidence is that, you know, the 70 plus years of history since then has borne that out. Well, seven years into the existence of the AFL CIO, Frank Donner, legendary general counsel of UE, kind of took stock for a speech at a UE convention in 1962. I was one year old when that happened. And he said, let's examine this, let's take ue, a very thoughtful union, a very detailed union. Let's examine what the seven year balance sheet is. And it was already failed at that point so far as being measured against its stated goals of why it came together and was formed in 1955 in the first place. And I think you can continue that legacy of failure and inaction all the way up to today. You mentioned AI and the trade policies trump all of these attacks falling on workers not only through political channels but every day in the workplace. Because if, even if you're lucky enough to have a union, your employer is spending a great deal of time and money trying to figure out how to get rid of you and how to speed you up and how to chisel you in every imaginable way. So the AFL just, it's just not up to the task. It cannot even, and will not even identify what the challenges are, let alone take the time to deal with him. And I encourage folks as a way to prove this. Don't take Chris Townsend or Ralph Nader's view of this Go to the AFL CIO website. I think it's afl cio.org it'll come up in any search that you do. You click on little page they have for their convention and it will say convention agenda. And the convention agenda will come up and it's about 14 sentences long. There's no thoughtful debate going to happen here. There's no discussion of any of these significant issues. It's a big staff meeting and a lot of social. That's what.
- [25:32]
Ralph Nader
Well, you know, Chris Townsend, before we continue, tell people how they can get your two articles which are loaded with information.
- [25:40]
Chris Townsend
Well, there's actually three now. One is in the newspaper that you're a big booster of, Ralph, the Capitol Hill Citizen. There's an article in there by me this particular issue. I was very happy that you guys asked me to submit that article. And it kind of lays out some of this. And then there's some of it overlaps with the website that I write for regularly. I'm the labor commentary for a website, Marxism Leninism Today. And if you put in Marxism Leninism Today, it will come up. And I write monthly on some labor question. I'll have something to say after the convention just to sort of tie up the loose ends. But it's a left wing, I'm a left winger, the labor movement. We're the real moving force, frankly, in most of the union, those that move at all. And, you know, I tabulate and chronicle some of these problems. The tragedy here of all this is amongst the labor unions, I find an immense reservoir of desire to fight back, to push back, to be more intelligent in terms of how we select our fights, to certainly maintain political independence from this Democratic Party which has suffocated us, and on and on. I could go. But yet the leadership chooses to take the safe way out, which is to sort of cop out. And you know, well, we can't do that. We better not do that. And then you end up with this truly remarkable and contemptible moment in time where the leading labor, the only labor federation we have in the United States, chooses at this moment in time to hide in the tall weeds as maybe they hope Trump goes by and destroys someone else. Maybe we can live through this regime as if that's going to happen, as if Trump is going to leave us alone or, or look at these lunatics that are following in Trump's footsteps, as if those folks are going to somehow make their peace with us.
- [27:31]
Ralph Nader
Let's cut to the chase here. Let's talk about union corruption, skeletons in their closet as A major reason why they're not taking on Trump. Because if they start taking on Trump and you call it the Trumpzilla beast, stomping by and stomping on the unions, if they go after him, he will immediately instruct the Justice Department to investigate them, to indict them. He will turn the Labor Department even more into an antagonist, dealing with union pensions. There's a double standard there with the top union leaders having their own special pensions and paying huge fees to the Wall street banks to invest. And who knows what the retrospective commissions are like. Euphemistically, there's a lot there and they're terrified, totally terrified. I think that explains the vote and not all of it, but I think that explains the bulk of the passivity of the AFL CIO and a lot of their member unions. Your response?
- [28:36]
Chris Townsend
You're absolutely right. And it's also rooted in, yes, all of these union leaders take the helm at whatever point they get selected. Now, I say selected because if you examine the various unions, including the AFL CIO as the federation of unions, the vast majority of the leadership for decades upon decades hasn't been authentically elected. It has been selected. And in fact, coming out of this convention, Secretary treasurer of the afl, Fred Redmond in it is at very advanced age, is likely at some point after the convention to retire. And that will enable the executive council in secret to select whoever it is they want to replace him. And this becomes one of the many devices, one of the many undemocratic devices that the incumbent leadership used, not only at the local level, but at the national, international level, and of course, then in the federation. So what gets selected is not the best and the brightest. It's the maybe most well connected, the most compliant, the most play ball. So we find ourselves today with a leadership that is unfit, unfit to challenge what the mission calls for at this point in time. And I think this convention, for me, when I started paying attention to it six months ago, it has played out exactly along those lines. This is an organization led in large measure by unfit elements who are disinterested, not interested, fearful even of launching the kinds of struggles that we must just for our survival.
- [30:12]
Ralph Nader
On that note, thank you very much, Chris Townsend, for your indefatigable optimism and drive. Thank you again.
- [30:19]
Chris Townsend
Thank you.
- [30:21]
Steve Scrovan
We've been speaking with Chris Townsend. We will link to his work@ralphnaderradiohour.com this is Ralph Nader.
- [30:27]
Ralph Nader
KPFK was the original home of the Ralph Nader Radio hour. And after 12 years and 625 shows. We're still going strong. So please show your appreciation for this program and all the other programs on KPFK that bring you voices, ideas, proposals, exposes that you will not hear in the mainstream corporate media. KPFK is beholden to no one but you, the citizens.
- [30:56]
Steve Scrovan
Please donate generously and that number to give is 818-98-55-5735. That's 818985 KPFK. When we come back, we'll dive back into the gerrymandering wars and what it means for true democratic representation. But first let's check in with our corporate crime reporter Russell Mokhyber.
- [31:17]
Chris Townsend
From the National Press building in Washington
- [31:19]
Alan Minsky
D.C. this is your corporate crime reporter Morning minute for Friday, May 22, 2026.
- [31:24]
Chris Townsend
I'm Russell Mokhyber. Florida based power company Nextera Energy announced that it plans to acquire Virginia's Dominion Energy, citing the growth of AI data centers as the impetus for the move. This absurd proposal to merge two massive
- [31:40]
Alan Minsky
well capitalized utilities should be dead on
- [31:43]
Chris Townsend
arrival for state and federal regulators, said public citizens. Tyson Slocum household customers have everything to lose and nothing to gain by allowing two behemoths Next Era and Dominion to merge. The claim that the tie up is needed to address data center demand is a false narrative. Slocum said the merger will do nothing to increase generating capacity, let alone desperately needed renewable generating capacity. For the corporate crime reporter, I'm Russell Mulcahert.
- [32:17]
Steve Scrovan
Stand up.
- [32:18]
Ralph Nader
Stand up.
- [32:19]
Steve Scrovan
Thank you Russell. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. I'm Steve Scrovan along with David Feldman, Hannah and Ralph. So Ralph, you have some news items you'd like to call attention to. Fire away.
- [32:29]
Ralph Nader
Trump and AIPAC collaborated to pour money into that poor Kentucky district and they defeated the independent minded Thomas Massie MIT grad, holder of patents, a former community executive in his district for he ran for the House. He defied Trump on matters such as releasing the Epstein files, the Gaza massacre, the war in Iran and a number of other things. And his opponent was chosen by Trump, a former seal who didn't have any program. All he said was I will be 100% with my President Donald Trump. He refused to have any debates, but the power of money and fanatic turnout by Trump voters in the primary with a low turnout overall of voters defeated Thomas Massie. Now he still has seven months to create nightmares for Trump in the House of Representatives, including holding his own hearings on impeachment in a committee room like Mike Revell held hearings on the Pentagon Papers they can't stop that from happening. And he can do a lot of other things, including breaking the grip on no talk of impeachment among the Republicans in Congress. I have one criticism, because he is a rigid libertarian. He did not campaign on kitchen table issues. He didn't talk about raising the Kentucky minimum wage of $7 and a quarter for the poor workers in his district. He didn't talk about increasing the frozen Social Security benefits since 1971 frozen for his elderly voters in the district. He didn't talk about changing the tax system. He didn't like about increasing taxes, even when they were unfair, he would allude to them. But you know what libertarians are like. So basically, he handicapped himself terribly and just kept saying, I voted with Trump on 90% of the votes in the House. These are the areas I cannot go with him on. And he was quite eloquent in those areas, but they weren't kitchen table issues. So I hope he makes the most of his seven months remaining. One of the problems is a very low turnout in primaries. As we all know, about 105,000 voters turned out, and there's about 500,000 eligible voters age 18 and over in that district. So the fanatics for Trump obviously turned out more than the supporters, longtime supporters for Thomas Massie. The second thing I wanted to point out is that there was a study in Sweden that might tickle people's fancy. Apparently, cocaine is polluting waterways. The stuff is dumped in waterways. And these Swedish scientists wanted to see if the salmon who had more cocaine in their system behaved differently from salmon who didn't have cocaine in their system. And they found that the salmon who had cocaine not only swam faster, but swam further in the waterways. Just a tidbit that I catch when I read the newspapers. More seriously, Trump is continuing to want to destroy something known as the Chemical Board, which is a small agency that alerts people and mobilizes knowledge about chemical spills in the environment, including what could be chemical plant disasters that could wipe out a town or a city. And this Chemical Board somehow has reached the ire of the zygnoramus called tyrant, Donald J. Trump, and he wants to erase it. And the nice thing about the story is that the members of the Chemical Board are fighting back, and they've got all the evidence for people to say to Trump, are you crazy? Do you know how many chemical plants are within lethal distance of major cities in places like Texas and Louisiana and elsewhere? Another item in the news was that the destruction of southern Lebanon is continuing at a Gaza Level, they're basically completely wiping out villages and agricultural areas in order to control southern Lebanon all the way to the Litany river, which they have had their eye on for a long time. They actually occupied southern Lebanon in the 1970s and 80s for 18 years. Militarily, they want that. And they want the extension of the gas fields off the Lebanese southern coast, the natural gas fields. And they're doing it with US Weapons and with Trump's support. Now, every president I remember has called Lebanon our ally. Lebanon is our ally, says Lyndon Johnson. Lebanon is our ally, says Richard Nixon. And on what are we doing allowing our ally to be destroyed? What are we doing? Ask aipac, Ask the mysterious grip by Netanyahu over Donald J. Trump. Another issue I want to raise is the invasion of Ukraine has probably quite a few causes. Putin has used it as a distraction from his dictatorship and the poor state of the Russian economy, to be sure. But let's go back earlier when Clinton was president and NATO was expanded to include the Eastern European countries, several of them on the border of Russia. Well, that's a sensitive border. In two world wars, it's killed over 50 million Russians. You know, World War I, World War II when it was invaded by the German army. And why did Clinton do this? One reason is he saw a lot of arms sales that we could convert their weakened military with F16s and all kinds of weapons built by Raytheon and Boeing and other military companies. And he was playing clever, you know, like Clinton does. He outsmarted himself. Well, that appalled the Russians and not only Putin. Clinton was moving to possibly bring Ukraine in to NATO. Remember, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. And when the Soviet Union collapsed, several countries were formed from the Soviet Union empire, like Belarus and Kazakhstan. And Ukraine was one of them. So look at the consequences. We now have a Ukraine being battered. We now have a Russia being battered by new forms of drones that are going all the way to Moscow. And the death toll of Russian soldiers has reached over 350,000. The death toll of US soldiers in Vietnam exceeded 50,000. This is a massive fatality toll. And you can imagine the injury levels. And of course, the Ukrainian toll, which is less than that, is still quite massive as well. The death of Ukrainian soldiers and the civilian injuries. I just want to point this out that once again, corporate profits and corporate influence in Washington play a very consequential role and put a lot of dangerous forces in motion. As we know, with climate violence, with ignoring the effects of contagious diseases, drug companies not interested in those. If they come from abroad, and so on and so forth.
- [40:06]
Steve Scrovan
All right, very good. This is Steve Scrovan, co host of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour with my good friend David Feldman, and. And our producer, Hannah Feldman, who is here with us right now. Hello, Hannah.
- [40:20]
Hannah Feldman
Hello, Steve.
- [40:21]
Steve Scrovan
Hannah. Now, you've been working on the show for how many years now?
- [40:24]
Hannah Feldman
I started in December of 2020, and my first, you know, that was a compilation show. It was highlights from. From the year, kind of a year in review. But my first actual taping was January 6th, 2021. And do you remember who we had
- [40:46]
Steve Scrovan
on January 6th, when we had John Larson, the congressperson, Congressman Larson.
- [40:51]
Hannah Feldman
Great state of Connecticut.
- [40:53]
Steve Scrovan
And we were on in the morning recording on a Wednesday morning on January 6th. And Larson says, I have to go now because I have to do the certification for the presidency. And little did we know, he had a heart out.
- [41:07]
Hannah Feldman
And we were all grumbling about it. We were like, oh, it's gotta go. They have to go certify the vote. And I guess we'll have to keep this interview short. And he had a heart out.
- [41:21]
Steve Scrovan
And we're just happy John Larson got out of there alive.
- [41:25]
Hannah Feldman
Look, all I could think about was I had a great first day. I hope everyone thought I did a good job. I was a production assistant officially when I first started, and I logged off. I spent the day patting myself on the back. I got it. Are you watching the news? No, I'm patting myself on the back. And so I joined the Ralph Nader Radio Hour under false pretenses. The world fundamentally changed. The country we were. We were discussing. Fundamentally changed on my first day at work.
- [42:02]
Steve Scrovan
That's right. We're not holding you responsible, but I just want to remind everybody we are in fund drive here at KPFK. And that number is 818-985-5735. That's 818-985-KPFK, please, to keep us on the air and to keep shows like this on the air. It all depends on you. No corporate funding, no quote, unquote, underwriting, which is just another way of saying commercials. Here we are at the Ralph Nader radio hour on KPFK, which has been on KPFK for 12 and a half years now. And one of the people who is instrumental in bringing that about is our executive producer, Alan Minsky. Say hello, Alan.
- [42:48]
Chris Townsend
Hello, Alan.
- [42:49]
Alan Minsky
Yeah, wow, Great dialogue there with Hannah. Hannah, Steve. I think professionally, like, it's a funny guy, like, wrote jokes or something like that, and I think your dad does something like that. Are you, Are you, you ever, like, there's no way I'm ever going to be a comic, or have you gravitated towards being a comic?
- [43:06]
Steve Scrovan
Can I answer this question first, Alan, by saying that Hannah is very funny. She's a, She's a good joke writer. If, if we could play the, the pre show that we do before Ralph comes on. Because, you know, once Ralph comes on teachers here and we gotta all be, you know, sit up straight in our chairs, it gets. There you go.
- [43:27]
Alan Minsky
Yeah, well, you know, and the great KPFK show, which still on Pocho Hour of Power. Always funnier after the mics get turned off. So all the, all the best jokes come right at, after the 458 end of the show. And I gotta tell you, when David used to record the show, KPFK Studios and bring in, you know, Martin Short and Robin Williams and all these brilliant comics, it was very funny, Very, very funny show. But it's still much funnier when, you know, the mics are turned off. These comics guys, really, I, I've been around them a lot, doing the job at kpfk. They are very, very funny people. And it's a competitive. It's a competitive field. So the guys that do well in
- [44:03]
Chris Townsend
it, they're pretty funny.
- [44:04]
Alan Minsky
I just said guys and women too. And so. Have you ever wanted to do that, Hunter?
- [44:08]
Hannah Feldman
You know, I, I respond to guys. No, I do. I do write. I'm, you know, semi pro. Ralph likes to say that Steve and David are semi professional. I'm truly semi pro. I dabble. And that's actually what I love about doing the show is David and I actually kind of compete to see who will text each other after we finish taping to. I'll go, did you hear I made Ralph laugh?
- [44:38]
Chris Townsend
Oh, wow.
- [44:39]
Hannah Feldman
So it's, there's. There's a very.
- [44:43]
Steve Scrovan
It's very. This father daughter competition is really interesting.
- [44:47]
Hannah Feldman
I think it's a healthy look. You know, Ralph has been on snl. I have never. I have never and probably will never be on snl. You know, there's. There's something about talking, like discussing really heavy topics and finding the humanity and the levity that keeps me from losing my mind and getting Ralph to laugh at a joke. Finding an angle where you're talking about tort reform or the commons or. I mean, we don't, there's other stuff we don't really joke about because it's just, it's too. It would be too glib. But, you know, finding a way to make Ralph laugh, even if it's just saying something super dumb. So, so dumb. And getting Ralph to laugh, it's a special kind of treat. And it's the kind of thing you never think you put together. It's something totally unique that we get to just play around. If I had, like, designed a gig that could combine, like, oh, I'm gonna research tort law this week and, you know, crack jokes at the same time, that I never would have thought I could have put that together. And so, you know, shows like this, it's such a privilege. And I. I worked in. At my college radio station when I was in college. And.
- [46:11]
Alan Minsky
Well, I love the juxtaposition you're proposing. Right in the neighborhood I live in in Southern California, there's a great video store. It's a legacy thing from the 20th century called videos. It's one of the last, really remaining. There's another one too, Video Tech on the other side of me. So I went to Video one of what I thought one of the greatest. Proves that maybe I wasn't a stupid human. And I was sort of a little bit intellectually proud of myself was when I was living in San Francisco after I was in college and I brought home two videotapes to have a double feature with my friends. And it was seventh seal by Bergman and House Party 2. I thought that was. Yeah, brilliant combination. So down, down. I got four videos the other day. I got Kentucky Fried Movie, A Night at the Opera. Those are the comic side. And then I got Lumumba and a Russian film called Come and See that is so harrowing. I think it's one of the best films ever made. Appearance. People who've never heard of it. It's probably the most powerful anti war movie I've ever seen. People should check it out. It is the most unfunny film ever made. And so I think I topped, you know, Night of the Opera and Come and see would top seventh seal and House Party 2, but just not as recognizable as the title. So, yeah, I love that juxtaposition. The Ralph Nader. I totally want to see the Ralph Nader SNL show. I wonder if we can get a copy of that, because I think I watched it live. I'm not old.
- [47:20]
Steve Scrovan
Yeah, I mean, there's. There's a clip of it in the documentary I did about Ralph called An Unreasonable man, where it actually. It was the cold open and he's with Lorraine Newman and she's supposed to hug him. And an air. They had an airbag attached to his chest. And so when she hugs him. The airbag was supposed to pop off, but it didn't work. And, but Ralph, Ralph handled it very professionally. And he just turns to the camera, says, live from Saturday night. Saturday Night Live, you know, and that clip is in the movie. There's another one which is so unreal. Like it's, it's like, is it.
- [48:03]
Hannah Feldman
He's standing, he's standing there with. Isn't someone in costume backstage?
- [48:07]
Steve Scrovan
That's the one thing where Lorraine Newman sounds so. Ralph Nader, I'm so happy to see you. And hugs him. But there's another one with, with Blow Up Dolls where he's in a room with Blow Up Dolls and assessing their, their quality. And, and so it's, it's Ralph. Like you would never have seen him.
- [48:29]
Chris Townsend
Well, Ralph Nader, when I was a
- [48:30]
Alan Minsky
kid growing up and remember the day where we, we talked about having, you know, I proposed Nader as the guest to David because we had this thing. It was because Gore Vidal used to do an anti State of the Union speech that the nation would sponsor when the State of the Union happened, whoever. Richard Nixon was president or, or whoever Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan. And so who. Gordon just died. So who do we get to do this? And I, and I was hesitant to suggest Ralph because I knew David and his politics, but a lot of progressives were, you know, angry at Ralph because of the 2000 election. And I sort of sheepishly said, well, the best person I think could do it in full breath would be Ralph Nader. And, and David instantly was like, he's my all time hero.
- [49:08]
Steve Scrovan
Yeah.
- [49:08]
Alan Minsky
And, and you know, people have to, if people are not old enough to remember Ralph Nader's status, especially in the late 60s, 70s and into the 80s, by the time he runs in 2000 for president, he certainly is massively more accomplished as a human being than Al Gore. Plus George w. Bush times 100. I mean, you know, he's just much more accomplished. Of course, if they'd ever let him on the debate stage versus those two guys. And Gore is a smart guy, but he still would have run circles. And Nader, though his status in the culture, everybody knew who he was and everybody knew he was there to protect them. He was like that. He was like the guardian angel of the American, of the American consumer, which, you know, he was, that was a word that he embraced. It's not so much embraced by the left these days, but he really was central to the culture. And just everybody knew who he was. He was as famous as, I don't know who's a parallel now, but the Americans had a much more unified national culture at that time. You know, only three networks and everything. So he was almost as famous as any president.
- [50:12]
Steve Scrovan
He was always on the, you know, top of the most admired Americans list, you know, through the 70s.
- [50:20]
Hannah Feldman
He also, his vision for the future. He's been at the vanguard at the moment. He's at the vanguard of American culture. He's the first person who allowed me to ask important people questions on the radio. He. He was the first person to go, hannah Feldman might have something work, you know, not completely ridiculous to ask. And so like, you know, it's been
- [50:47]
Alan Minsky
a remarkable ascendancy to almost like your status across the world is really the most beloved human and guardian angel of contemporary people across the world. So you really got your start from Ralph and his assassin.
- [50:59]
Hannah Feldman
Everybody needs to donate to the fundraiser because voices like mine asking the hard questions, like, well, you know what? I'm not going to give it away. I'm not going to give away my best question.
- [51:13]
Steve Scrovan
You have to tune in and, and if you want to keep tuning in, you need to give it at any level. $100, $120, $50, whatever you can spare. Maybe be a recurring donor, a monthly donor. You can do that. Call 818-985-5735. That's 818985. KPFK, Pacifica Raiders. KPFK has been around for how long, Alan?
- [51:41]
Alan Minsky
1959, the Pacific Radio, 1949 up at Berkeley. It started. Yeah, and it's been here since 59. And you know, these radio stations were, by the way, the commit. The comedic tradition on these radio stations is unrivaled. Probably the most influential comedic troupe of the 1960s was launched out of KPFK called the Fire Sign Theater. And there's just been. And of course, the famous thing with the Carlin seven words, that was all on George Carlin. That was on WBI Radio Pacific affiliate in New York City. But yeah, no, it's been around since then. And call now, pledge what you can. I do want to say this, you know, if you do want to. Thank you again. Ask the people in the phone room for this incredible book by Molly Crabapple. I'm sort of, sort of stealthing this in there for everybody. It's an incredible book about the Jewish bun. But I really think it really fits this show because what it's about, it's about anti ethno nationalism. It's about unity among peoples and America. Talk about something that should really speak to America on 250th anniversary of a nation that has a lot of sins to account for, but brings together the most diverse group of people that have ever lived together under any nation state in the world. And that's the redemption of the United States of America is through democracy, through some kind of redistribution of wealth, of course, because you can't have democracy and oligarchy like we have a plutocracy at this point. So read Molly Crabapple's book and get it through KPFK as a thank you gift for a station that's in harmony with those messages, just like the Ralph Nader Radio Hours. And the name of the book is Here Where We Live is Our country, which again is about the history of the Jewish bun, the great left wing traditions coming out of Eastern Europe at the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. And yes, that is my own family's political background. Here where we Live is our country. And it's available for a hundred and twenty five dollar donation to KPFK and the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Call now, pick up a copy as a thank you gift.
- [53:37]
Steve Scrovan
That number again is 818985 KPFK, 818-985-5735. I want to thank everybody for listening to the Ralph Nader Radio. I thank everybody for listening to Pacifica, for supporting listener supported radio. It's not corporatized. It's no ads, no sponsors, no billionaire backers. They've operated that way since 1959, funded entirely by the people who listen. And with media consolidation accelerating and local news disappearing, KPFK is still here because you, the listeners, keep us here.
- [54:18]
Alan Minsky
What Steve is implying is that we're going to pool our money. Hannah, Steve and I, we're going to do a leveraged buyout of all of the Oracle's holdings in media across the country. That's the Ellison family. So we're going to have consolidation by just. By the time you wake up on Monday, expect to hear the Pacific owns most of the national.
- [54:37]
Hannah Feldman
You stole my. I was going to tell everyone. I got to share the good news with everybody. I thought, well, I need to save the money for my. I'm running for president under the impeach me platform.
- [54:57]
Alan Minsky
I'm going to be. Did you see that happened in Nebraska this week? A woman ran to not run and she won.
- [55:04]
Chris Townsend
Really? Yes.
- [55:05]
Alan Minsky
She ran to not run to get to be the Democratic nominee for the Senate race so that Dan Osborne, the independent, wouldn't have a Democratic challenger.
- [55:14]
Chris Townsend
Wow.
- [55:15]
Hannah Feldman
I mean, yeah, my. I have to look into that. I mean, my, my, I, I want to run. My full slogan would be impeach me, cowards. And I want, I think the only person I, a single issue. I run for Congress, run for president, single issue candidate. I harass people. Impeach early, impeach often.
- [55:42]
Steve Scrovan
Well, you want to be impeached, Hannah, but do you want to be convicted? Because we impeach all over the place. We impeach left and right. It's the conviction where it is, the sticking point. It's not.
- [55:52]
Hannah Feldman
I would, I, I would hope that I wouldn't be convicted because I would live up to the quite lenient standards. It's not a high bar, guys. It's really not a high bar to not get convicted. Not that hard. So I want fire me. Fire me if I deserve it. That's what I always say.
- [56:18]
Steve Scrovan
That's the opposite of what Donald Trump said on the Apprentice. Fire me if I deserve it.
- [56:24]
Hannah Feldman
And that's the Ralph Nader Radio Hour guarantee.
- [56:28]
Alan Minsky
And you can support that with the call to 8189-8557-3581-8985 kpfk. You know, maybe sometime soon we can get some fireside theater stuff from the archives and we can offer it up. We don't have that ready for today, but we do have that great book by Molly Crabapple as a featured thank you gift for $125 pledge. But support whatever you have, whatever you can $5 25, $250, $2,500,000. Whatever you can give. Please give to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour on Pacifica radio by calling 8189-8557-3581-8985-KPFK. Thank you, Steve, and great to be on air with you, Nana.
- [57:05]
Steve Scrovan
Thank you, Alan.
- [57:07]
Hannah Feldman
Thanks, Alan. I hope I didn't bring the FCC down on you by electioneering for a fake campaign.
- [57:14]
Alan Minsky
Oh, don't worry. I think the Ellisons will get to me first.
- [57:17]
Steve Scrovan
That number is 818-985-Kpfk. That's 818-985-5735. And remember to continue the conversation after each show. You can go to the comments section@ralphnaderradiohour.com and post a comment or question on this week's episode.
- [57:34]
Chris Townsend
The producers of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour are Jimmy Lee Wirt, Hannah Feldman and Matthew Matthew Marin. Our executive producer is Alan Minsky.
- [57:43]
Steve Scrovan
Our theme music, Stand Up, Rise up, was written and performed by Kemp Harris. Our proofreader is Elizabeth Solomon.
- [57:49]
Chris Townsend
Join us next week on the Ralph Nader, Radio Hour. Thank you, Ralph.
- [57:53]
Ralph Nader
Thank you, everybody.
- [58:25]
Chris Townsend
I was a cutter in a factory in New York. When there were factories, all the factories. The garment industry left New York back in the 80s and early 90s. There's not too much left. And then I drove a cab in New York, so I joined the union. Of course, at one point, labor was 34% of the population back in the day. Now we're down to 7%. 87 million Americans did not vote yes. What does that tell you? Apathy and complacency. Pacifica is the only station that really gives out the true voice of this country. I know Pacifica doesn't take government funding.
- [59:07]
Ralph Nader
Right.
- [59:07]
Chris Townsend
But you did make a reference to the cuts in government funding of media. You know, that's one of the things that this administration has corruptly done, which is strip funding from public media and then giving it to big corporations or to the rich. And that juxtaposition, I think, really underscores the crucial role for truly independent media that relies on community support and doesn't get slammed once some evil government force comes in. That force in this country is Pacifica. It is kpfk. So everybody listening. If those phones aren't ringing now, people aren't going out online line right now making contributions, please do it. Because this legitimate source for genuine news and critical commentary is unmatched.
- [59:58]
Alan Minsky
It's unmatched in Los Angeles and it's
- [60:00]
Chris Townsend
unmatched around the world. And people really need to support the work that you.