B (6:42)

Happy to be here.

C (6:43)

Fantastic. Michael, I'm going to start with you. As you and Sara Lee point out, there's no shortage of books that tackle the challenges crimes histories of Israel and Palestine, including some with proposed solutions. So what's the void in our libraries of books on the Middle east that From Apartheid to Democracy seeks to fill?

B (7:12)

Thank you so much for having us. When we set out to write this book, as you mentioned, we did recognize a void, and that was that there's lots of literature and books and investigative work, work and analytical work and policy work, even describing the problems, describing the realities. Most recently, that literature and analysis has brought the global community, and specifically the human rights community to two major conclusions. One is that there's a one state reality between the river and the sea. That means that there's one regime, the Israeli regime, that exercises ultimate control over all, all Palestinians and Israelis and anybody else living in the territory between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river, namely, what we refer to as Israel, what we refer to as the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem and the entire area. The second conclusion is that Israel, that regime is an apartheid regime because it treats different people under different laws with different rights and different privileges. And most recently, the International Court of Justice looked at that entire situation and found that the occupation itself is illegal and must come to an end as soon as possible, which was followed up by the UN General assembly, which passed a resolution calling on Israel to do that within one year, a deadline that passed in September of this year, September of 2025. Now, that's one area of literature. The second area is thinkers who have been talking about what possible solutions are. You know, our starting point is that the Oslo 2 state process has failed. And not only did it fail to create a two state process, but it actually entrenched the reality of occupation and apartheid. It institutionalized it, it codified it, and it almost gave legitimacy to that reality, allowing Israel to push off any pressure to divert attention just by saying that there's a two state process, that, that this is the ultimate goal and we're just waiting for the perfect partners, for the perfect political moment. And so there's lots of folks who have described what they envision could be both as a two state solution, but also as a one state solution, which is, you know, effectively one democratic state that represents all peoples in the territory. There's, you know, some movements out there advocating for a confederacy where there still exists Israeli and Palestinian states, but free movement between them and all sorts of arrangements that make it look more like one state, but still give expression to the nation state. This idea that still much of the world lives under the void is how you get from point A to point B. And we thought that, and we think that that void really denies policymakers, political leaders, analysts and activists, and everybody else who's engaged on this issue with the language to be able to describe both how those alternative solutions might be possible, because it's not clear, or it wasn't clear how you might get there. But also it fed into the status quo of leaning on the two State process as, as the excuse for not taking alternative policies. Because while diplomats and others may have admitted to themselves and others over the past few decades that the two state process is dead without an ability to articulate anything else, they've resigned themselves to slogans and policies that are effectively designed to preserve the conditions that could potentially make a two state process possible. But in reality, condemnation millions of Palestinians and Israelis by the way, to living under an apartheid system, whether as the victims or beneficiaries.

C (11:17)

That's a great starting point. Sara Lee, I'm sure that the question has been asked of you more times than almost any other question, what is the solution? Referring to the man made problem created by the Zionist and Western interpretation and execution of the UN partition plan. With this book you and Michael have contemplated a path forward for the moment when the political will to end Israeli occupation and apartheid presents itself. So can you talk a bit about some of the large topics that you contemplate? Things like what steps would need to be taken to move beyond the status quo in order to create space for new possibilities to emerge and also now in the wake of a genocide, and how the regime that is upholding Israeli apartheid and occupation would or even could be dismantled to create that space.

D (12:18)

So Este, you're asking a two part question. One is how do we get there? How do we get to the blueprint? How can we see the conditions emerging that will lead the Israeli public and the Palestinian public to say we're ready to try something new? Because this is a plan that actually does depend on consent. It is not something that's gonna be imposed on people against their will or not against the majority of people against their will. And you know, many people are actively working to get to that moment in time combination, as Mike was saying, of international pressure and domestic pressure. The conditions in which young Israelis say they do not want to continue down this path anymore. They don't want to in endless wars, they don't want to suffer endless casualties. They don't want to be ostracized the world over. And we think that moment is clearly not here yet, but we're certainly closer than we've ever been. Given the global opposition to Israeli apartheid occupation, given the global conclusion by the highest courts of the international community that Israel is committing genocide, that Israel is ruling bipartite, and that the occupation itself is illegal. So that moment may not be here yet, but we think that the existence of the plan will help facilitate more people to push harder on Israel to sanction it, to boycott it, to divest from it to help create the pressure, the civil pressure, the lawful and legitimate pressure to persuade Israelis to rethink their approach and rethink their position by presenting a viable off ramp. So we, we don't take responsibility in that sense of dictating or proposing how that pressure should be brought to born because many, many people have done that already and are actively working on that. What we are focused on is the actual transition plan that will allow us, allow the people of Israel and Palestine to collectively bring an end to the military occupation of Palestinian territories, the apartheid rule over Palestin, and to create the democratic institutions that will provide the basis from which the people in the region can next take on issues of governance and statehood. So I'll pause there.

C (14:56)

Thank you. You're listening to Middle east and focus on listener supported 90.7 kpfk in Los Angeles. I'm Esti Chandler, very happy to be joined today by the co authors of From Apartheid to Democr, A Blueprint for Peace in Israel, Palestine, Pulitzer Prize winning author of A Day in the Life of Abed Salama, Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. Nathan Thrall writes about the book, quote, the world desperately needs the conversation. This book is trying to start by demonstrating that policy alternatives do indeed exist, end quote. And that is Nathan Thrall. Michael, the blueprint that you and Sara Lee present is based on two important realities that you've both touched on. One, that a one state reality currently exists and two, that international law must be respected for any forthcoming peace agreement to succeed. While both of those things are true and vital, how has the last 24 months of dismantling or at best paralyzing international law, has it changed your calculus at all?

B (16:20)

You know, we've thought a lot about this. We were still writing the book when the attacks of October 7th broke out and as the genocide unfolded in Gaza and is still unfolding, unfortunately, despite the fragile ceasefire that has led to a temporary lull in the killing. You know, there's a few different ways that it's affected my thinking, and I hope I'm speaking for Saralee as well when I say this. The first is that the moment has never been riper for alternatives that as Saralee said a minute ago, it's never been clear to more people in the world that the status quo of occupation and apartheid is unacceptable and must change. And we've all witnessed just how bad that can get. And while I myself and many of my colleagues and Sarah as well have been writing for decades that the status quo is untenable and unsustainable I'm not sure that anybody really understood what that meant. So that impetus, that growing impetus, is one way now, as far as the dismantlement of international, you know, legal order. Our book, our plan, and our thinking is 100% based on international law and first and foremost in ending the illegal apartheid and occupation regimes. But the thing that I touched on earlier about how this requires political will and necessarily mentioned that this can't be forced upon people. What we're trying to do is bring that political will, or at least contribute to it coming forward, because the international institutions on their own cannot deliver justice. The international institutions on their own cannot end a regime, whether it's a legitimate regime or an illegitimate regime like the apartheid regime. And the international systems and institutions are effectively made up of states, and states are ruled by politicians who make decisions based on political considerations. And while those politicians may come and go and the considerations may change, if the ideas are not in front of them, if they're not presented with them, or if they can't reach them on their own, then they simply don't happen, and we stay stuck in the current situation. So in that regard, I think we are closer than ever. It's been incredibly frustrating to watch how the United States in particular, has worked to dismantle the International Court of Justice and how the UN Security Council and other institutions have been incapable of responding to this incredibly terrifying moment of inhumanity that we've seen in Gaza. But these institutions are made up of countries which are led by people, and those people can change their minds. And if we convince them of the right ideas, hopefully that brings us to the pathway that we're proposing here.

C (19:10)

The fourth chapter of the book begins, there is no such thing as change without risk. Can you talk about how you tackle the considerable challenges of security for all people, violence towards all people, and instability in the region?

D (19:33)

I think that quote is really speaking on two different levels. One is sort of the grand conceptual level at which we are proposing a completely different configuration of the status quo, of the governance, of the status quo, of the rule, of the status quo, status quo. And so it opens up a tremendous amount of risk, the prospect of Israelis and Palestinians actually living together and working together in a unified democratic process. Maybe not forever, but at least for the three years of the transitional period, at a moment that follows decades of a brutal, violent military occupation that has taken so many Palestinian lives, while subjecting Israelis to acts of retaliation and terrorism, targeting of civilians has left them also feeling quite insecure and, you know, I think punctuated of Course, by the Hamas attack on October 7, it's hard to envision how people, after this experience, after the experience of the genocide, can live together. And that, I think, is the risk element that comes in. And certainly there is risk and there's risk principally to the status quo for Israelis, where they risk losing the privileges they have, where they risk giving up the security they have in a state that is exclusively dedicated to prioritizing their Jewish identity for something unknown. What we are proposing does entail taking risk about the unknown. But what we think it can offer, based on successful experiences in other parts of the world, world, and what we know to be the founding principles of human rights and justice and democracy, is a longer lasting security, longer lasting peace. Now, there are many steps that we take to get there, and there's a lot that we do, a lot of, perhaps, some would say, compromises that we make in order to give people, Israelis and Palestinians, a maximal level of physical security. Security that is reflected in the fact that While under the BluePR, we mandate freedom of movement from the river and the sea, at the same time, we retain checkpoints in order to really forestall and avoid having a few spoilers upend this experiment with a democratic process and democratic role. We merge the security forces, Israeli and Palestinian, but we disarm the irregular armed forces, Israeli and Palestinian. We allow the security forces, even though they are under unified central command, to continue to do local policing and to operate in the communities and towns where they're present. These are all elements that we have designed to maximize feelings of physical security at a moment of tremendous political and emotional risk.

C (22:35)

And Michael, the goals of the blueprint are to remedy the most urgent issues facing the territory today. Israel's apartheid rule and illegal occupation. Can you, in our last couple minutes talk about that as well as the second goal of the blueprint, preparing for what follows.

B (22:56)

Yeah, and again, very quickly, the blueprint, this book, our proposal was, what it does is effectively flips the script on the way that the international community has approached the problem of Israel, Palestine. It says instead of looking at a political solution first, instead of deciding how many states and who's going to rule them first, end the crimes of apartheid and occupation. And so that's the different approach. And as far as the second part, you know, we do believe that whatever that configuration looks like has to be reached by Palestinians and Israelis themselves. That kind of, you know, decisions about government, governance and statehood can't be imposed from the outside. And yet under the current power dynamics and systems of oppression and domination, it's impossible without first leveling the political and civil playing field for that type of decision to be able to be made fairly. And we hope and believe that our plan, that our proposal can create the conditions where such a decision in a referendum hopefully can be made.

C (23:59)

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. For more than three decades, the illusion of a two state solution under the auspices of the Oslo Accords has allowed Israel to maintain a one state reality of permanent occupation and apartheid. In From Apartheid to Democracy A Blueprint for Peace in Israel, Palestine, Michael Schaefer Omerman and Sarah Lee Whitson challenge this approach, presenting a roadmap to end these crimes and and create a rights respecting regime for everyone now living under Israeli control. Only once basic safety and legal equality are assured can Jewish Israelis and Palestinians determine their future in one, two or more states if they choose through an inclusive democratic process. Breaking with the failures of the past, the plan they present makes clear that ongoing violations of basic human rights must be ended before issues of governance can be equitably addressed. Clear eyed yet hopeful, the authors offer proof of concept that democracy and equality are indeed attainable and call on the international community to create the conditions required for them to flourish. Once again I want to thank my guests Sarah Lee Whitson and Michael Schaefer Omerman, authors of From Apartheid to Democracy A Blueprint for Peace in Israel, Palestine. I also want to thank Mark Maxwell for his production support today. Our theme song is the overture from Summer Night's Dream by Marcel Halifa for KPFK Los Angeles. I'm Esti Chandler thanking you for your continued support of KPFK and for taking this time to put the Middle east in focus. Let me emphasize that justice for me is not the issue I am addressing here. It is justice for my people that is at stake.

D (28:27)

On Sunday, November 2nd from noon to 3pm at the community Owned center in the Leimert park, there will be a celebration of Assata Shakur's life and her 46th year of freedom from injustice. Assata Shakur, former member of the Black Panther Party and the first woman ever to be named as a terrorist on the FBI's most wanted list, died in Havana, Cuba on September 25, 2025.

C (28:52)

My name is Assata Shakur. I am a descendant of Africans who were kidnapped and brought to the Americas as slaves. I grew up and became a political activist, participating in student struggles, the anti war movement and most of all in the movement for the liberation of African.

E (29:14)

Americans in the United States.

C (29:16)

I later joined the Black Panther Party, an organization that was targeted by the COINTELPRO program, a program that was set up by the Federal Bureau of Investigation to eliminate all political opposition to the US Government's policies, to destroy the black liberation movement in the United States, to discredit activists and to eliminate potential leaders.

D (29:43)

A Celebration of Assata Shakur's life Sunday, November 2 from noon to 3pm in Leimert park at the Community Owned center located at 4276 South Crenshaw Boulevard at 43rd Street. Further information is available at tinyurl.com asada.

B (30:01)

La Asada is spelled a double S.

D (30:04)

A single T a again that's tinyurl.com.

A (30:09)

Asada la in the spirit of the ancestors, in the spirit of the Black Panthers, in the spirit of Assata Shakur, we make this movement ensures freedom for all those who have been oppressed and.

B (30:25)

All those in the struggle.

A (30:47)

Foreign.

D (31:00)

Hello.

F (31:00)

And welcome to Radio Intifada, a weekly review of politics and culture from Calcutta to Casablanca here on KPFK 90.7 FM in Los Angeles, 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara and 93.7 FM in northern San Diego, as well as streaming Worldwide on Cape kpfk.org All Radio Intifada shows are also available to download for 60 days at kpfk.org and can be found as podcasts on Spotify, Anchor, Google Podcasts, Breaker and Radio Public. My name is David Lloyd and I'm a member of the South Asia, West Asia and Northern Africa or Swana Collective that produces this show. My co host today is fellow collective member Misha Chaudhry. Welcome Michelle hi David.

E (31:46)

For today's show we are joined by Pakistani filmmaker Javed Sharif. Javed Sharif is an award winning filmmaker and National Geographic Explorer based in Pakistan. Exploring the themes of social change and human rights, his projects focus on reviving the suppressed cultural and indigenous identities of Pakistan. In the past 15 years, Javed has pushed the boundaries of visual storytelling by documenting stories about the rights of of folk musicians, high altitude porters, climate migrants and marginalized communities. Some of his films include the Losing side, the Color of Smog, Nothadi and Indus Blues. Today we'll be discussing his most recent film, Moklani, winner of the 2025 Jackson Wilds Global Voices Prize. The documentary follows the lives of the Mohanas, an indigenous community that has lived off of Manchar Lake in Sindh, Pakistan for generations. Through the swiftly changing lives of of the Mohanas, Sharif explores the deep sense of loss that comes with ecological destruction. Thank you so much for joining Us Javed.

A (33:00)

Thank you so much Misha and David for hosting me. I am really looking forward to this conversation because I think this is going to be first of any podcast radio interview for this in your region about Mokulani.

F (33:18)

Oh well, thank you Jawad. We're all the more pleased to welcome you to the show. In that case, it's a scoop. So many of your films cover indigenous communities and practices in Pakistan but what brought you specifically to Manchar Lake and the Mohanas, what motivated you to do this film particularly set there?

A (33:39)

So basically David, if I talk about Mancher Lake and if I give some context about it, so it is one of the largest freshwater lake in Asia, not just in Pakistan. I think it's the second largest freshwater lake. The area is about 250 square kilometer or in monsoon season it's like much more than that. So what happened back in 80s or then in 90s there is this project initiated by the government and with some Genseis and they put one of the drainage canal in this freshwater lake. And initially, I mean people, the local community who lives there, specifically the Mohanas. So, so who are the Mohanas? Mohanas are the fisher folk community who live in boathouses. So and they are living in boathouses. In centuries this is, I mean they are indigenous to that lake. But initially they thought they have been told it's a fresh water, it's not going to disturb the ecosystem or anything. But after like within 10 years the whole ecosystem of the lake is destroyed. There used to be 114 species Underwater species and the research which has been conducted back in 2000s but now I think there are just few species left. And in addition to that, this community, this indigenous community which is, I mean actually water is like they pray water and their life depends on the water. They are very much connected with this way of life, with the nature, with the birds and specifically migratory birds which come during seasons from Siberia, Russia, pelicans and there are other birds and you know they are very, very close knitted and they build this relationship with the water and the species who survive only the water. But when this whole ecosystem is disturbed, their life has been actually it's, it's finished. And where there used to be like more than 300 boats and now just 40 boat houses left.

F (36:09)

You talked about the birds. I was really struck just watching the trailer by the intimacy with which humans and birds interact. There's the cormorant in the opening shot and then there's the boy with the pelican. I think it's a pelican, a white bird. I mean it really, really is striking to think that humans and wild birds can interact with such intimacy. And I really would encourage people to watch this just, just for that alone. But sorry, yeah, stop remarking on that.

A (36:40)

Yeah, I just want to add on this. So basically once the. I mean the first time when I was researching on this project and first time I have seen this pelican within like this, this community and pelican when you see it, I mean live, it's such a huge bird, you know. And the relationship they developed with this, these pelicans in the. So every boathouse has their own pelicans, like two pelicans, three pelicans. And it's like your dog, you know. So the children are. Children are playing with the balls. They are throwing ball towards pelican and he or she is trying to catch the ball, throwing it back. You know. It is such, I mean such a divine moment to witness. This is, this is what I felt and this was the whole inspiration when I witnessed those moments. And in those moments I decided like I have to work on this project. I have to at least preserve it. It visually. If it is not in coming years, I could see like it is going to be vanished. It's near to extent and in the world there are very few indigenous communities who are still with such a close contact with nature. And Pakistan is lucky to have this community. But still unfortunately, all of this political and policymakers decisions and then this industrialization and when you put your personal agendas above the, above nature or above these, these indigenous communities. So this is so unfortunate.

E (38:36)

Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned how witnessing the relationship that the Mohanas have with the pelicans kind of cemented your just commitment to making this documentary. Can you tell us a little bit more about your filmmaking process and how both the lake and the community that you got to know shaped your film?

A (39:01)

Thank you Misha for asking this interesting question and specifically filmmaking process. So if you look at body of my work or people who, who follow. So I have my company Jawad Sharifilms and we have produced multiple films. One of our film was about fading indigenous musical traditions, musical instruments in Pakistan. We traveled all around Pakistan to film that musical instruments and it was just not about the musical instrument. It was about the whole culture, whole tradition, the craftsmanship linked with it, which was going on since generations in some cases like centuries. But it, it is like there are, there are so many instruments which are going to vanish. So Indus Blues is. It was one of my film it is available on YouTube, free to watch. Anyone who, who want to watch, they can search Indus Blues or Jawadshari films. So if you look at that film or my other films and now Mokulani. So my process of filmmaking is very observational. It's very personal, it's very intimate and it's very observational technically in technical terms. We also call it cinema verite style. Cinema verite is more truthful style cinema, more observational cinema. So what I did like for example when I started working on this project, so the whole like first year or more than like maybe 15, 16 months, more than an year, I did not take my camera with me. So I was just there with the community. I was present there and it was more about, you know, to absorb the people, their life, their culture, how the their sunsets, sunrise, how their day starts, you know, so, so I spent so much time observing all of this to absorbing all of this. And when, when I felt like I like I found my characters, my subjects because I. I was looking for. There are very few people left who actually know what their indigenous practices were. How they used to hunt fish, how they used to catch the birds. They don't use the guns or anything. It's a very interesting, if you look at the film, it's a very interesting way. They have like this bird hats, they make this bird hat and they wear this hat. They get into the water and it's more like you are deceiving the other birds and you within water you are catching. So it's a very, very fascinating techniques they use to catch birds. And so when eventually I thought no, I found like these characters, this could be part of the film or they could be my protagonist. So after one and a half year I brought my camera and some of my crew members with me and then we started filming. And my filming process is like even like the team which works with me, for example, our co producer and cinematographer Saida Kashmala and then Asif Ali and the other team members who worked with me on this project and they worked with me on some of the previous projects. So when we are on the location in the boat or wherever we are filming, we try to make ourselves invisible. We don't want to disturb the situation, we don't want to disturb this setting. You know, we try to capture it as it is. So it's more like you are capturing soul without disturbing it. So we try to be as invisible, as low key as possible and you know, just film the moments. And the filming was about, I think more Than three years because there are different seasons when birds are coming, when birds are not coming. I mean we filmed in spring, we filmed in winter, we filmed in monsoon. Then there were floods, there were upside downs. So so many things were going on. So it took us more than three years in filming and eventually more than year in a post production. And still it's in the finishing process. Like we are still working on the final finishing sound and you know, everything to release for a cinema.

E (43:39)

Wow, what a long process. But clearly it paid off. So your film focuses on Akbar and Hakeem Zadi. So I, I think you, you mentioned them a little bit earlier but, but can you talk about them a little bit more? And what, what made you choose to focus on those two?

A (44:00)

So basically Akbar I focused on Akbar. His nickname was. He lives just.

B (44:07)

He.

A (44:08)

Even within community. He was like kind of on the part of the lake which is very far from the, the commercial area. You know, the, the, the business side of where the fish market is. So he's, he was still I found like Akbar is more raw and more connected to, to his indigenous way of life and he was the one who has so many stories to tell and very interesting personality how he calls bird. Even like if you look at the trailer and he's making this sound so he, he makes, and he, he could pronounce like maybe more than 30 bird sounds which is so amazing, you know, and, and, and, and birds he calls bird with that sounds. It's like, it's so fascinating. So that was one of the reason. And, and then Hakim Zadi, the other subject. So we found Hakim Zadi on, on the, on the part of the lake where this poisonous drainage canal entering in, into the lake and, and that entrance there is this community where Hakim Zadi live and her boat is already destroyed by that water, you know, so she had to leave her boat life and she, she, she and her family made a mud house in edge of the lake on the, on the bank of the lake and she's living there. So that was the, I mean the, the different story what happened how she is when she, she left the life on a water. And then there are, I mean she's talking about, I mean she likes. I don't like land, I love water. I want to live on water. And she said there was very, very interesting statement where she says the first time when I came out of boat, I don't know how to walk on a land, you know, so I was not used to it. So it was a very different for Me, because they, so they get married on boards, they give births on boards. That everything, I mean, their whole life is in boards. And it's a very conservative communities. So mostly women don't go out. They live in their boats and they live within lake and within water. So like it's, it, it was a very different story. And then the relationship between Hakim Zadi and Akbar. Hakim Zadi is the sister of Akbar. And so that relationship was there too. So there are multiple factors. There are many other, like sporting characters, but these two were unbelievable. Yeah. Very impressive.

E (46:44)

This is radio intifada on KPFK 90.7 in Los Angeles, 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara, and 93.7 FM in northern San Diego, as well as streaming worldwide on kpfk.org I'm Misha Chowdhury and my co host is David Lloyd. We're joined today by Pakistani filmmaker Jawed Sharif to talk about his film the Last Mohanas.

F (47:10)

So Jawad, the depth with which you've got into this community and got to know individuals and it's so impressive. And we've already talked about how the film recounts the ecological destruction of Manchar Lake. But how has it changed over the decades? What did you learn about how the environment itself has changed and what is happening with these threats to the ecosystem, starting with the drainage pipe and you know, in the, in the longer run, what's happening to the community itself or to the people itself?

A (47:45)

So unfortunately, I mean, first of all, because the community was depending on the lives on water, their core livelihood was fishing. So first of all, I mean, there is no fish left. So right now, even like most of the people who still live in, there are very few boat horses left who still live in boathouses. So they're, they're men. And, and the people go outside of lake to do some other work, some other, you know, labor work. They go to, even like most of them, they go to, they, they went to more south at the sea in, in Karachi, like to sea for fishing. But they don't have fish anymore at the lake. So this is, first of all, this destruction is like their whole livelihood is gone. And the other thing is, you know, which is, which is so tragic, they used to eat vegetables which has been grown in the water. It doesn't exist anymore. So they cannot use that water. And that water is not usable for anything. And not even it is usable for drinking. So they have to go outside lake and purchase a water like the can of waters and they bring that water back to the boats. I mean, they live in the water, but still they are thirsty. They don't have access to it. So this is so unfortunate. And if I zoom out about the whole community, so the destruction is unbelievable. I mean the whole culture, whole tradition is vanished. We're. There used to be hundred and hundred of boats. Now only 40 boats left. So you can imagine. And those 40 boats are left because they don't have any choice. And when we were having the conversations with him and they were like, when our boat is going to be destroyed or broken, we don't have any choice other than to leave this lake. So it's like whole culture is gone.

E (49:57)

Javid, I'm really struck by just the, the sense of loss that you capture in this film and the, the sense of loss that the, the Mohanas have faced through the last couple of decades. Can you talk a little bit about how this ecological devastation is also a spiritual dislocation?

A (50:23)

I think it is actually a spiritual dislocation. This is what I felt if I tell you about meaning of Mokulani. So Mokulani is the Sindhi word and the meaning of Mokulani is farewell, the last meeting. So and it is, it is in that sense, like when you don't want to have this last meeting, but you don't have any choice. So this is a last meeting. So in this situation when this community and these people are leaving this space and they say like, it's, it's more like, I mean, they have a very spiritual connection with the water, with the birds. Those birds, those pelican, they cannot not survive on a land. I mean, they were there on the boats.

F (51:15)

So.

A (51:16)

And then there is this. They have very strong and spiritual connection with the water as well. So it's like how, how they, how they start their day before sunrise. And I have seen movements, I have seen those connection is there. And there are so many indigenous stories. There are so many, so many folk stories which were linked with the lake and with the water and with the community. So when community is no more on a water and it is. It if they migrate to land, so what happens to those stories? So it's not about ecological laws. It's. It's much more than that. It's. It's an identity loss. It's a cultural loss. It's, it's. It's more like you are losing yourself and you cannot stop this. And what about their future generations? So, yeah, I think they have, I mean, it's. And these communities, these indigenous communities are. They are still much protected from the urban Pollution or digital pollution, you know, so when we talk about this tick tock and the soul of digital pollution and then there are these urban pollution, you know, so they are still protected. So then they are more connected to, they are spiritually more connected, they are more connected to nature, they are more connected to, you know, their own selves, their souls. So I mean. Yeah, yes.

F (52:51)

So American listeners are probably more familiar with indigeneity obviously in the context of North America and perhaps other western settler colonies like Australia or Canada. But is there a specific meaning to indigeneity and how it relates to Pakistani society at large that we should know about here? Because we have been referring to.

E (53:18)

The.

F (53:18)

Mahanas as indigenous people, but I wouldn't want to give the wrong impressions about what that might mean.

A (53:26)

So so basically when we talk about the indigenous in our culture or on this land, it's more about, I mean their generations are there since centuries. For example, these Mohanas, they say like they come from Monjo Daro which is like Indus Valley civilization, which is about 5,000 year old civilization. So they say their ancestors are, I mean from there. So it's more like, I mean they spent their lives there like they're, they're since centuries. So this is, this is one of the link. And then they own, I mean of course they own this, they own that water, they own that land and it all belongs to them. So yeah, and I think this phenomena is just not in Pakistan or in the Asia. We right now in this era of time, we are, we are hearing, we are listening, we are watching stories happening around the world where those, those communities, those indigenous people, they have to leave their ancestral lands either because of the man made disasters or the natural disasters, but climate disasters. So you know, so they are. So it is happening around the world too. True.

F (54:47)

Yes.

A (54:48)

And I just want to add here there is another film which we made, it is called Natari. It is also about climate migration and there is this community which lives in the delta, like in this Delta part. And 90% of the community has forced to leave their ancestral homes or their, I mean their houses. And we filmed that story. Natari is also available on YouTube but you can witness like the similar story there, like it is happening. So it's not just one story.

C (55:26)

Okay.

E (55:26)

We're almost out of time unfortunately. But before you go, we would love to hear a little bit more about first and foremost how listeners can stay updated on Maklani and how to watch it. And then also we would love to learn more about how listeners can support indigenous communities in in Pakistan like the Mohanas.

A (55:52)

Thank you Misha for asking this. So basically they can follow our official Instagram and YouTube which is Javad Sharifilms where we will keep posting like when film is going to release and we are holding hoping to have a release in USA as well. And if they want to support communities, I mean in Pakistan either it's like indigenous musicians, either it's like indigenous artists and then these are like climate affected communities there are and and the recent floods there are so many stories which they can actually support morally and you know whatever way they want to support it. So they can write to us. If they search Javad Sharif on Google they will find the email or Instagram or anything. And thank you so much for hosting me and it's it was pleasure talking to you and your listeners.

F (56:48)

Thank you Jawad.

E (56:49)

Jawad Sharif is an award winning filmmaker and the director of the Last Mohanas.

F (56:55)

And we will post a link to Jawad's website which is Jawad Sharif Film Films all as one word J A W A D S H A r I f films.com and we'll post that on our social media and listeners can check in and see both Moklani and of course other films by Joad. All our shows are available to download@kpfk.org we upload our shows to Spotify and you can find us on podchaser, Podcast, Ad Addict and Podbean. Thanks as always to our wonderful board op Osman and special thanks to Ankina Antaram for her editing. My name is David Lloyd of the South Asia, West Asia and Northern Africa or Swana Collective. And on behalf of my co host Misha Chowdery and all of our collective members, I'd like to thank you for listening and wish you a good day until next week. Dissent and Resist.

A (57:54)

Sam Foreign Tune in.

D (58:32)

Every Monday at 1pm Pacific Time on.

A (58:35)

The Expansion Zone with your host Sonia Barrett.

D (58:38)

Join us to examine life and the vastness of human potential. We'll also explore the shaping of our our world from quantum physics to parapsychology, health, sociology and philosophy. Along with practical living. Be reminded of the possibilities in creating personal change. Change that will impact our perception and.

C (59:02)

The way that we engage with the world.

D (59:05)

That's the Expansion zone Mondays at 1pm on KPFK 90.7 FM and streaming live@kpfk.org.

A (59:19)

Hey this is Brad Friedman of the Bradcast heard right here on KPFK, Mondays at 3:00pm as you know, KPFK is corporate free listener supported radio but that means we need you to support our work and help drastically shorten our fund drives. By joining the KPFK Sustainers Circle today, you can pledge $5, $10, 20, or any amount you like automatically collected each month to help keep the bradcast and all of the other KPFK shows on the air. Please go to kpfk.org and click Make a Pledge to join the Sustainers Circle and help keep KPFK's important independent voices on.