David Feldman (3:03)

David Kelly Stratman is the executive director of National Council for the social studies. Ms. Stratman's career began in education, first teaching English to middle and high school students in Japan, and later as a classroom teacher for kindergarten and fourth grade in Ohio and Massachusetts. Currently, she serves as vice chair of AFS usa, a nonprofit that promotes global citizenship and intercultural learning through international exchange. Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio hour. Kelly Stratman, Dr. Tina Ellsworth is president of the National Council for the social studies. Dr. Ellsworth is currently an assistant professor at Northwest Missouri State University. Dr. Ellsworth is also an assistant professor of social studies education at the University of Central Missouri, whose research interest centers on history education, pedagogical content knowledge for teaching history and teaching with primary sources, and is currently a co writer and co editor for a book on teaching with primary sources, expected to be released in the fall of 2026. Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Dr. Tina Ellsworth, thank you so much for having me.

Ralph Nader (4:23)

Welcome indeed, Kelly and Tina. The occasion, listeners, is the annual convention of the National Council for Social Studies. It's going to be in Washington, D.C. december 5th to 7th at the convention center, front and center. There'll be thousands of social studies teachers there. Unfortunately, conventions like this often don't get coverage by the mainstream press, and we try to fill in the gap here. So for those of us among our listeners, Kelly, tell them what you mean by social studies. What are the names of the courses and the curriculum?

Kelly Stratman (5:00)

Yeah, social studies is a really exciting discipline, if you will, because it is an umbrella for so many things. It includes history, it includes geography, sociology, law, related education, civics, and so much more. And we feel like it's the backbone to a great education, allowing students to really feel empowered to dig into their communities and to the things that they experienced around them, by all that they learn through the many disciplines within social studies.

Ralph Nader (5:29)

Well, as you know better than we do, the emphasis at certain levels of education and government is on stem, computer skills, learning about AI. And of course, these are just tools to use or misuse. They are taught by asking the question how? And the social studies ask the question why? Much more fundamental, much more portentous in order to make sure that these tools are wisely used or at times not used at all. So how have you dealt with this? Well, one can call it a subordination, a crisis affecting social studies teachers all over the country. They're sort of downgraded, they're not given adequate facilities in many schools, and they're disrespected by some people in government and business because they deal with issues of morality, justice, ethics and fair play, democracy. How are you dealing with that?

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (6:27)

That's such a complex question. We know that a lot of these issues are rooted in a Child Left Behind. And while I had really good intentions of making sure that all students were at grade level, we know that there was a large amount of assessment that was done with that and it focused on ELA and math and not necessarily in the social studies. I think one thing that that caused it to be undervalued significantly. But the important thing for us to realize is that these different subject areas in schools are not mutually exclusive. Right. In order to do stem well, you need social studies. You need the ability to make good decisions, you need the ability to critically interrogate any kind of sources that you might be encountering. And ultimately doing things with your work to make the world a better place. Like that is all social studies skills that we're talking about. Helping kids to become critical thinkers, to really ask good questions, I think is really important. And thinking about students more than just their future career, but really preparing students for this civic life too. Right. So how are we addressing kind of some of these issues? Well, first of all, we really focus on centering our students. Teachers are very humble people by nature and they don't tend to be the braggadocious ones, but instead just really shining the spotlight on them and showing a great work that they have been doing. We have seen over the past few years this teacher shortage, kind of like what you were saying. Some of it is disrespect that maybe teachers are encountering in the field, or maybe the lack of pay for teachers in the field. But as somebody who works with pre service teachers, I can tell you that they are enthusiastically joining the field. They still believe in the values and the mission and vision of education and how it really can protect our democracy and make the world better. We have seen a lot of wins despite maybe the increase in STEM focus. One of them is the data science for everyone. Had a conference in August and brought all these social studies teachers to the table to say, how can we incorporate data science into the social studies? And how can the social studies inform data science? These really intentional networks and collaborations are Happening because people do understand all of the ways in which these intersect. And it really aligns with our mission and vision with social studies, which is we're looking to create students for their career and also for college and also for their future as a citizen.

Kelly Stratman (8:53)

This is Kelly, and if I can just add to that, I'll say that we did a survey, and we had about 50,000 social studies students respond to that and almost 1,000 social studies educators. When we asked the students, what are the skills that you most develop coming out of a social studies class? They talked about the ability to form an opinion and demonstrate support for that opinion. They talked about critical thinking. They talked about the ability to evaluate concepts and ideas and even about reading comprehension and writing skills. So just to underscore what Tina is saying, none of these things are mutually exclusive. And the social studies allow students to really explore and expand and develop those muscles that they need for all aspects of their life. And certainly as they go out into the community after they graduate.

Ralph Nader (9:39)

Well, certainly you hit on important parts here. Reading and writing is still very important. I know from my experience as a youngster, by far the biggest impact on my education were social studies teachers. They weren't called that then. The geography teacher, home economics teacher, history teacher, English teacher. I hardly remember my physics and chemistry courses. Why? Because they were sterile. For example, in the physics course, while we learned about equations, et cetera, we never applied physics to anything in the community. We never studied the weather, for example, the chemistry course. We never studied the drinking water. We had two dirty rivers and a very clean reservoir up on a hill. And it was never part of it. It was just studying the periodic table. So I think it's probably even more true now in terms of sterility of what are called tools and occupational skills, in contrast, educational skills. Tina, you make a priority on teaching through primary sources. And I got to give you an example of where we failed. We have thousands of copies of the Declaration of Independence. One side, it's the script that was used in the 18th century. The other side, it's the updated English version. And you can hardly give it away. We had, for example, one time we had T shirts on the Exxon spill in Alaska. They were bought in great numbers compared to the Declaration of Independence. I always thought, and my parents always thought, that the Declaration of Independence was very fertile for examination. What it left out, what it included, and why. Most of the signers thought they were signing their death warrant, basically declaring defiance of King George iii, who was the head of the most powerful military in the world at that time, and some of that military was in the thirteen colonies. How do you define primary sources when you try to encourage students to use them?

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (11:46)

Primary sources are the raw artifacts of history, the things that were created at the event at the time under study. Right. So we could be looking at some newspaper articles, some journal entries, photographs, paintings, political cartoons, oral histories, and teaching students how to analyze those different pieces, also to consider the context in which they were created, the bias of the creator of the artifact, teaching them how to corroborate different pieces of evidence in order to be able to get at a more complete story, if you will, understanding the limitations of individual sources. And by helping them do that, not only do they understand the way that history is constructed and all of the multiple perspectives that are represented in those sources, but also that is so transferable to today. When I have students that are looking at TikTok or reading articles online and they're asking questions about is it true?

Lois Gibbs (12:38)

And.

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (12:38)

And there's a big push right now for critical media literacy for that reason. And now with the advent of AI, we have a lot of questions about authenticity of sources that are in front of us. So by teaching students how to critically analyze sources from the past, then they can also transfer those into the future as well, while developing those critical thinking skills, sources. So as they encounter anything, they're better positioned to be able to determine the trustworthiness of that item and also to be able to understand the limitations of it so that they can look for the perspectives maybe that are missing, and they can be really intentional looking for those to making sure they have a more complete story.

Ralph Nader (13:16)

Well, I mean, we've been very concerned about the state of civic education. First, a lot of the schools have dropped it, and a lot of other schools teach it in a way that's numbingly dull. One way I describe some of the civic textbooks are they invite memorization, regurgitation, and then result in vegetation. It's just a professor of mine once described the civic textbooks that are used as equivalent to eating sawdust without butter. However, if you connect the students with their community, with adults who are interacting to try to improve their community, otherwise known as civic groups. For groups like the League of Women Voters that you're associated with, Kelly, they come alive. Can you tell us a bit about the state of civic education? Let's start with Kelly and then go to Tina.

Kelly Stratman (14:10)

Yeah, I mean, obviously, we are huge proponents at NCSS for civics education. It's one of the core components, as I said, of social studies. You know, and we are aware of the fact, you know, it is challenging. Teachers have constraints on what they're required to teach, as well as constraints on their resources and their time. But with that said, we know that incorporating real life examples is an important part of student success. As you said, it also engages them and allows them to really draw those connections right from what they're learning in the classroom to what that means in their community. There are some great examples out there of community and school partnerships. You named one of them. The League of Women Voters for many years has gone into high schools and done voter registration and tried to engage students in different ways. I know Tina can speak to her role at the university level where university professors can help to provide professional development to teachers. Right. And help them expand and increase their resources as well. And you know, we at NCSS have been advocating for a number of years for what we call civic seals, which are a tangible symbol of the value of comprehensive and research based civics education practices in schools. This includes like discussions of current events at the local and national levels, inviting students to use what they've learned in the classroom against community service type projects that are connected to the curriculum, offering extracurricular activities to get involved in their community or even get involved in their school more.

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (15:36)

Right.

Kelly Stratman (15:36)

Like promoting students being engaged in school governance. I know both of my daughters were recipients of the civic seal when they went through high school and it really did expand their horizons on what was possible and the power that they have.

Ralph Nader (15:49)

Even as young people, their moral authority is extraordinary. We've all heard the stories of how youngsters got their parents to stop smoking or to wear seat belts. You know, youngsters are very result oriented. They don't beat around the bush and they have a great moral sense. And once they decide something's wrong, they ask, how do you fix it? We would do well to listen to them. Tina, what's your take on civic education?

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (16:14)

I think a few things. I was reading an article from The Sandra Day O' Connor Institute recently that talked about how in the 1950s and 60s, most high schools had like three different civics class the student had to take prior to high school graduation. Post nclb, we're down to most states. Only requiring one class might only be even a semester long. And so given that that's their first real exposure to a civics oriented class, it really becomes an American Government 101, where you're just learning about the logistics of the Constitution, separation of powers, all those kinds of things. But it doesn't really afford teachers a lot of opportunity. So when I think about America 250 coming up next summer, there's a lot of push in the states. They have different commissions that are encourag recentering the Constitution, which I think is a great time for educators to take advantage of this focus on history and civics and really doing more to position their kids to make a difference in their community. But you're right, they have to know about their community, know about their place, because then that increases that attachment to the place and their wonderment about it and wanting to do something to fix it. When I think about afterschool, the National Council for the Social Studies has what we call a C3 framework for teachers. And we basically lay out a guideline for what makes good high quality social studies education. One that's inquiry based, one that's using disciplinary practices, one that's using the sources unique to the disciplines. But lastly, it's taking informed action. So we want to encourage the social studies curriculum that has students doing that. For teachers, the constraints of time can be a really big deal, Especially if it's something that's doing something outside of school. When really what we want to encourage is also, well, how can they just make their school better? What can they do right there within the four walls of their school to be able to make that better? But I think also we also have an organization tangentially to the civic seals called Rho Kappa. And it's an honor society for high school kids. And we actually have a junior Rho Kappa program for middle school kids who are doing exemplary work that includes taking civic action. So if your school wants to have an honor society that recognizes kids and provides kids with opportunities to be able to engage civically, those are some really great programs they can get involved in and they can reach out to ncss and we can certainly help them with that. But I think that right now, specifically we're talking like the fall of 2025. Besides time constraints and a lack of professional development and this strong focus on ELA and math, which I would argue you can't do either one without a really good social studies program and do it well. Teachers right now are a little bit fearful about teaching anything that is focused on civics. They're uncertain about where the project could go when you give k the agency to be able to do that or how the community might respond with what students are doing. Even sometimes members of the public may say, oh, you're turning students into activists. As if having students engage in their community to make it better is something that's bad. So I don't quite understand a lot of that vernacular that's being thrown around as having kids care about their community is a bad thing. So I think we need to do more to kind of take charge of the narrative and to help connect better the parents and the people in the community with the school and with the kids to see how we can all do this better. But I think now's a really great time with America 250 and this increased focus, the spotlight that's on civics and government and history right now, to take advantage of doing some of these really great things.

Ralph Nader (19:36)

And one thing about social studies, that the students learn about different cultures, they learn about different religions, they learn about different historical viewpoints, they learn about power. I hope they learn about power. Otherwise they'll grow up being taught powerlessness. And then when I was a youngster, we had a course called home economics, and it was almost restricted to the girls. Like, you know, boys wouldn't take home economics. Well, home economics, when you look at it full front and center, is consumer economics pretty important? What are economies for, after all? So it's good that you're paying attention to all this and this convention coming up, can anybody attend if they pay the registration fee or do they have to be teachers?

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (20:25)

Come on by, Ralph. We would love to have you. Yes, anybody can come. Anybody who's interested in connecting with any of us is certainly welcome to be there. I feel like when you talk about engaging civically and being around teachers and being in community and talking about how to improve civic education and history education and all the disciplines within the social studies, yes, it's a great place to do that. Anybody can come.

Ralph Nader (20:50)

And what's the website so they can.

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (20:52)

Register www.socialstudies.org and then you'll find a tab there on the conference for this year.

Ralph Nader (20:59)

Let's talk about the convention itself. So if I was a reporter and I called you up, Kelly and Tina, and I said, I see you have at the Giant Convention center in Washington, D.C. your annual conference or convention for the National Council for the Social Studies. Why should I be interested in covering it? What's the lead in the article?

Kelly Stratman (21:22)

I think it's going to be more than 3,000 educators and others who support social studies education gathered together in community. We have an amazing lineup of keynote speakers. They include Justice Jackson, Minority Leader Jeffries, along with his very talented brother who is a renowned scholar at Ohio State, Jeffrey Rosen from the Constitution Center, Judge Thomas Griffith, Sharon McMahon, and so many more. We also have curated a schedule of over 500 learning sessions. We're going to have 200 exhibitors, so you'll have good company in the exhibit hall at your table. And we're offering a lot of other opportunities to our attendees because we're going to be in the nation's capital. We haven't been here in a while. We have events going on in conjunction with the Smithsonian, with the Library of Congress, the Museum of the Bible, and we're even doing a Hill Day on Capitol Hill. So we're just excited to be together, to be in community, to be in a space of continued learning and really sharing the ideas, the successes and commiserating a little bit around some of the challenges as we come together for what we hope to be a really uplifting and joyful few days.

Ralph Nader (22:27)

Well, I hope Constitutional law specialist Jeffrey Rosen uses the occasion for a major speech reflecting the crisis in our collapsing democracy under the tyranny that we are all witnessing every day. I suppose if President Trump condemned your convention, it would get huge news, just as he is now getting unwelcome attention. Were responding to the Democrats in Congress who said that the military and the National Guard should not obey illegal orders, which is of course, international law and part of the code of military justice. And Trump, not having much civic education, responded that these Democrats should be prosecuted under the sedition laws and executed. Well, you know, nobody ever accused him of being mealy mouth. But we do have to recognize we have the greatest political crisis in American history, aside from the Civil War, and we can't ignore it. And we have to lay the basis for a civic resurgence. As I've said, it never takes more than 1% of the active citizens in congressional districts reflecting public opinion, knowing what they're talking about, having stamina and focusing on Congress where the decision has to be made to prevail, to win against corporations and other special interests. And we've demonstrated that over the years. But it somehow does not connect with youngsters. Youngsters grow up, they feel cynical, they feel depressed. They're very prone to giving up on themselves. Not all of them, of course, and that's one reason why they fall into addictive practices. For example. So how do you get these youngsters to look at the future, the horizons, a scenario that's other than just getting rich, but getting a just society where the opportunities are available for all to fulfill life's possibilities?

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (24:27)

I think that inspiration starts with the teachers, right? Sam Weinberg out of Stanford said that social studies teachers are the guardians of democracy. And if there is anything that Social studies teachers stand for, it's for defending the pillars of democracy. And that's part of the purpose of ncss, is to help support teachers in meeting that mission. But also it's the purpose of our conference. Kelly had mentioned the joy and the hope that we want to bring to the conference is the joy. And the hope is still there because we believe that when we act as independent agents in a democracy, we too can contribute to making this better. And so to inspire kids, we need teachers who are inspired to inspire kids. We need teachers that have hope. And so we hope that when they come together and they're talking to teachers from around the country and learning how different communities are grappling with some of the same pressures, even if they are slightly different in their respective spaces, that.

Lois Gibbs (25:23)

They can feel hopeful that they can.

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (25:25)

Take action and they can work in solidarity with each other to really protect this democracy of ours. Because when teachers are civically engaged, their students are more likely to be civically engaged. And so for that to be an integral part of who we are as teachers, I think is contagious for kids.

Ralph Nader (25:41)

Tina, for that to happen, teachers have to have more spontaneity. They are rightfully complaining about the rigidity of the curriculum and standardized tests. You know, teach to the test. We exposed the standardized test deception many years ago out of Princeton, New Jersey. And it has never been more frequent in terms of testing. So the teachers have to be more spontaneous. I'll give you an example. I had a fifth grade teacher. Her name was Ms. Thompson. And the one thing I remember from Ms. Thompson's class most prominently, this is in Connecticut, where she walked in one day and she turned to the blackboard and she wrote, one minute. And then she turned around and said, see that? Said, one minute goes by, you'll never recover it again. You better use your time usefully. Well, you know, she was basically saying, don't procrastinate. Now, that wasn't part of a lesson plan. So it was really the spontaneous nature of teachers that I remember the most. This has been going on a long time. And they're right. This lack of civic education, civic skill development, civic experience in the community by the students has been going on for decades. And in fact, 25 years ago, there was a poll of high school students, and more of them knew the names of the three stooges in the three branches of government. So can you give us a little light on how to break through this rigid curriculum and teaching to the test and what schools have managed to do that?

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (27:16)

So I think we're going to go a little bit more broadly and look at the states. So a lot of the states, their departments of education, are creating state standards that are more skills based as opposed to that rigid, just rote memorization of content. And as a result it is causing reinvention and a reimagining, if you will, of what the state assessments would look like. There actually are a lot of states in the country that are more skills based assessments rather than the more traditional assessments like what you're talking about. There are even some organizations right now who are affiliates within CSS and within their states. They're working together to help advocate at the state legislature level to make sure that the assessments are really reflective of more of those inquiry based practices where students can have a chance to be civically engaged and let that give districts greater latitude for how they want to assess their students. So I think that by having our social studies teachers really advocate for that exact thing that you're talking about, which a lot of them are doing at the state level, then that is helping to reshape what we know as the current social studies assessments. Now, with that said, there are some states that don't assess social studies at all. And as we know, what's assessed is what gets taught. And so if we want money to be coming back into social studies education and civic education, then some assessment is better than no assessment. But then the ones that have been doing it a while are working towards this new type of assessment and we are seeing some great progress in states across the country that are meeting those new demands.

Ralph Nader (28:45)

Give us the state of the parent teachers associations in localities around the country. Are they still active or begging for participation or what?

Kelly Stratman (28:56)

I mean, I don't want to be a spokesperson for the pta. I don't have their numbers in front of me. But I think generally community organizations across the country have been facing decline. Right. Robert Putnam, you know, in his book Bowling Alone, which they just made into a documentary recently, you know, shows that decline across community groups, whether it's church groups, civic groups, PTAs and others. I think it's a different time and a different space. With that said, they are still active and I think there are a lot of other community groups that help to support schools. You know, I'll just add onto some of this conversation which strikes me too, is, you know, having communities really look at what's happening around education policy is important. I think there are a lot of conversations that happen. And while we at NCSS and our affiliates around the country are Watching that activity very closely, I think many people don't take that interest. And so I would invite people to pay attention to what's happening in your community, what's happening at your state house, especially as state legislative sessions get ready to ramp back up again in January. You know, one of the statistics that always sticks with me is how few people turn out at local elections, especially those school board elections. I remember a statistic from a few years ago where I read about 90,000 school board elections happen each year. Seats, right, come up about 90,000 each year. And most of those races are decided by less than 10% of the population. So when we think about how important our students are, how important education is, and how that funding happens and where that funding happens, it is all at that local level. And so when we think about how we can get engaged and what we can do just as everyday citizens, we can be those role models, right? Where we are getting engaged, where we are asking the questions ourselves of our communities, where we're taking those best practices that we learned in our social studies classes and we're putting them out there. And again, statistics show that when you take your child even with you, when you go to vote at a very young age, that becomes a habit for them. So we are the models for our students, whether we're in the classroom, whether we're a parent, whether we're a neighbor, or just a member of the community. We need to be the advocates that we want to see happen.

Ralph Nader (31:10)

Well, you know, when I was young, corporations didn't play such a great role in raising children. There were very few ads. There was no television. They didn't sell junk food because they couldn't really reach the kids. The supermarkets had spongy white bread and all that for sure, and we have better assortments and choices today. But now they are so prevalent and so penetrating of these children's lives. These corporations like Facebook and Google and Apple and Microsoft and all the appendages to them that it led a prominent child psychologist at Harvard, Susan Wynne, to write a book, who's Raising Our Kids? You know, and one of the subtitle answers was corporations. How are you facing that? You know, that's a bit controversial, but, you know, you must realize that our kids are being pulled into virtual reality consciously, deliberately. Mark Zuckerberg just made a statement a few months ago saying he wants people to live in virtual reality. Live in virtual reality. And all that implies in terms of remoteness from reality, from community, from family, from lived experiences. I mean, we're dealing with Bizarre corporate model doctrines and temptations here. What's your reaction, Tina or Kelly? You can start.

Kelly Stratman (32:34)

I mean, I think some of this goes back to what Tina mentioned earlier. Right. I think that this is why we are such strong advocates for this inquiry based approach. Right. Because it gives students the tools they need to navigate this, whether they're trying to pull apart things in the virtual space or in real life. You know, these are important skill sets that they can use as they go forward. Not just take things that are given to them and just walk away without questioning it, but really feeling empowered to stop and evaluate and have the tools at their disposal to be able to do a really thoughtful evaluation. I'll also say, I think that one of the other great things that happens in social studies classes is that people talk to each other. As we noted, that's becoming increasingly challenging, maybe in some circumstances, but being able to communicate, being able to really listen, helps you to become a better part of your community. And so I think social studies, one of the greatest things it does is it sparks curiosity. It makes you hungry to ask more questions, to learn more. And to do that, you have to talk with people, you have to engage, you have to listen. And so I just continue to advocate for the work that NCSS does and of course, all of the educators that make up NCSS who are doing this day in and day out with their students and helping them to work through these really challenging conversations.

Ralph Nader (33:53)

Very well said. As a matter of fact, both conservative families and liberal families are very worried about losing control over their children into virtual reality. That's why so many legislatures have contemplated regulation of Silicon Valley and the Internet. They haven't broken through yet, with few exceptions in California a little bit, but it's coming and it has both left right support. And the members of Congress and state legislatures know that. So they're free to really explore and see how they're going to deal with protecting our children. Well, listeners, if you're anywhere near the Washington, D.C. area, this is a historic convention. It couldn't come at a more important time during the Trump administration and what some have called the oncoming dark ages enveloping our country. So if you want to journey some miles to attend, you're very welcome. And give that website once again, Kelly, and we will. Thank you very much.

Kelly Stratman (34:53)

Yeah. Please visit socialstudies.org and come and join us. The theme of our conference this year is because democracy depends on it.

Ralph Nader (35:02)

You can bet that's true. Thank you very much. Kelly Stratman and Tina Ellsworth. And good luck on the convention December 5th to the 7th in Washington, D.C.

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (35:14)

Thank you very much.

Kelly Stratman (35:15)

Thank you so much.

Steve Skrovan (35:17)

We've been speaking to Dr. Tina Ellsworth and Kelly Stratman. We will link to the National Council for the Social Studies and their upcoming conference@ralphnaderradiohour.com up next, we welcome back an old friend and tireless civic hero, Lois Gibbs. But first, let's check in with our corporate crime reporter, Russell Mokiver from the National Press.

Russell Mokhiber (35:36)

Billy in Washington, D.C. this is your corporate crime Reporter Morning minute for Friday, November 28th, 2025. I'm Russell Mokiver. Congresswoman Summer Lee last week launched an investigation into the Department of Justice for its failure to fully prosecute large corporations that have violated the law. Reports indicate that major donors to President Trump had been given leniency under the Trump administration. The investigation comes as a criminal charge against Boeing, which donated $1 million to President Trump's inauguration fund, was dropped. The corporation was facing prosecution for the two fatal 737 Max plane crashes that killed 346 people. The Department of Justice has an obligation to uphold the laws of this country. Summer Lee said no person or corporation should be above the law. For the corporate crime Reporter, I'm Russell Mulcott.

Steve Skrovan (36:32)

Thank you, Russell. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. I'm Steve Scrovan along with David Feldman. As a young mom Back in 1978, our next guest began a civic crusade that continues to this day.

David Feldman (36:44)

DAVID Lois Gibbs is the founder of the center for Health, Environment and Justice, a project of People's Action Institute. In 1978, she blew the whistle on Love Canal after learning her kindergarteners school was built on a toxic dump. Her work led to the creation of Superfund. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Lois gibbs, thank you.

Ralph Nader (37:10)

Welcome back, Lois. We go back a long way, John, Richard and I, when we had that press conference in upstate New York where you were featured as the struggling advocate to protect your community, not just your family and children. And I want to read from a section called our story in your 2024 annual report in order to give our listeners a background on a excellent example of democracy in action, starting with nothing but peril and concern for one's family. And here are the short paragraphs, listeners, about how it started. Quote, it all started in 1978 in Niagara Falls, New York. Lois Gibbs was struggling to raise a family which included two children suffering from a number of rare illnesses. Soon she realized they weren't the only ones suffering Nearly every family in the Love Canal neighborhood was facing its own medical nightmare. Lois discovered that her home and those of her neighbors and sat amongst 20,000 tons of toxic chemicals. In response to this shocking news, Lois stepped up to lead her neighbors in the battle to protect their families from the hazardous waste in their backyards. Lois and her neighbors developed strategies to educate and organize their community, access the impact of the toxic waste on their health and challenged corporate and governmental disposal policies. After a three year fight, Lois leadership led to the relocation of 833 Love Canal households. 833. Through this experience, Lois realized that no local, state or national organization existed to provide communities with the strategic advice, guidance and technical assistance necessary to win such a battle. End quote. And that's when you organize what is now known as the center for Health, Environment and Justice. And one of the things Listers should know is she was so successful organizing people, a lot of them just mothers worrying about their children coming down with cancer near toxic dumps or leaks into their basement from toxic dump flows that every two years she'd have a big convention near Washington D.C. in Virginia where all these people came to describe their victories. Their victories. It's such a celebration. Unfortunately, the mass media has not given Lois Gibbs and her supporters their due. But we want to take this opportunity on our show to do so. Tell us how you started all this.

Lois Gibbs (39:57)

Well, it was really interesting because it's not only did the media not cover a lot of this stuff, but I'm a woman in case you didn't notice. And there was a lot of pushback. The environmental movement. When I began the center for Health, Environment and Justice, the environmental movement was led by men and men who were about fallacy. And you know, it's one of the things that I really liked about you and John Richards and others is like you opened your arms to me as if I was an equal. I didn't have to like do something, you know. And all of the people who came, so we at every corner of the United States of America, literally every backyard had something going on back in the 1980s when we were organizing Chuj and it's vast majority of them, 20,000 people we touched and the vast majority of them were women who were not much different than I am. High school educated moms of children, biggest investment in their life was their home and their property. They, their biggest dreams in their life was the American dream just to have a house and raise their family and maybe make something, do better for their children than they had. Maybe go to college, maybe you know, get a craft of some sort. And yeah, it was really hard, but it was also, as you know, Ralph, because you met many of them, incredibly exciting. And that movement is not dead yet, by the way. That movement is still alive and well. And they're participating in many other things that are happening today, like the no King rallies. I mean, every single one said, I'm not doing anything this weekend because I'm going to the no King rally, either in my local community or in DC or in New York. But they're extraordinary people who learned how to fight this battle not from a book, not from television, but from the seat of their pants. And what was really clear in 1980 and is still clear to me today is that if the people decide that change is needed and they gather together and they organize around it, it doesn't matter whether Democrats or Republicans are in office. It doesn't matter who has power. They can create that change. And that's what we really need in this country. I mean, you know, as you've said often, you know, you have Democrats, they don't do anything. You have Republicans, and they do everything wrong. But if you have people, when you think about the national policies that have been set around the environmental movement, the environmental health movement and the environmental movement, all of that came from grassroots efforts. And you can go all the way back to the founding of the Sierra Club when they were standing on a mountain in front of a river and saying, you're not going to put a dam here. It wasn't some policy maker or very well educated person in D.C. who came up with the decision that we have to protect our water and our lands and our health. It was community, people either working in the wilderness or working in their hometown saying, this is no longer acceptable. You do not have the right, no one has the right to say that it's perfectly okay for my child to be exposed to chemicals and be harmed by them in the name of this here economy. Big corporation, big business and political whatever that is. When they support political power, I guess it is. No one has that right. And that's what the grassroots movement is today and was then is we really pulled people together who say, no. There's no acceptable level of chemicals to people that will harm their health so that corporations can make money, so that politicians can grit power. We say no and we pass bills like the Super Fund, for example.

Ralph Nader (43:48)

We're going to get into that in a minute. But I do want to go back to Hooker Chemical and the companies associated with it. They basically dumped this stuff near and in a canal near Niagara Falls. And then developers came and they bought the land and they covered it with soil and they built hundreds of homes and they invited people to come there and grow their families without telling them what was underneath below their basements. And one thing that was so remarkable about you, Lois, is that when you establish your center in a suburb in Virginia, you provided technical assistance to these mothers around the country, training programs. You would go all over the country. Few people have ever traveled as much as you to go into places nobody's gone into Western North Carolina, Appalachia, the Ozarks, and train these people on how to become strong, informed, resilient advocates for their families and their neighborhoods. And a lot of these technical programs should have been promoted by the big environmental groups whose budgets towered over your, what, million dollar a year budget, you know, a few days income from a rich CEO. So you are an example for civic courses for pompous professors who think they know about how democracies rise and fail and never mention groups like yours. So here's one of your innovations. What is Toxic Tuesday?

Lois Gibbs (45:21)

Well, Toxic Tuesday is actually. It's a newsletter. It's electronically available. And what it does is it takes common chemicals that everybody says is perfectly safe, and it explains to the regular everyday person how toxic that chemical really is. I mean, you know, Ralph, when people are exposed to these chemicals, whether it was Hooker at Love Canal or, you know, somebody that just had that explosion in Galveston, I don't know if you caught that, but the big black plume, and the big black plume going over Galveston, they said, oh, don't worry, it's okay. Well, Toxic Tuesday talks about what's in that plume, the smoke plume, and why it's very dangerous and why, you know, sheltering in place actually doesn't work, and that you need to pay attention to these symptoms that might come from your exposure to that plume in Galveston that just went by. It's a very simply written newsletter, so everybody has access to it. You don't have to be a PhD in some kind of science. And then people can take that and understand it and go to whoever their powers to be and then tell them this is no longer acceptable and this is got to stop.

Ralph Nader (46:30)

We'll give you a website where people can get a hold of your work and levers like Toxic Tuesday.

Lois Gibbs (46:37)

Yes, we have tons of stuff on our website. So it's thej.orgorg and it's not only just Toxic Tuesdays. There, there's a whole series of videos that have moms and People who organize the grassroots. And we interviewed them and explain what they did and how they did it. There's also guidebooks on there. So the guidebook says if you have a problem, you don't know what to do. Here's the first thing you do is knock on your neighbor's door and ask them if they think there's a problem and another neighbor. And then go to your city council or your freeholders meeting or whatever that might be. There's all of this guidance available. Again, it's all free of charge. We don't charge anything for it. It's all written in very simple language. It's not complex to understand. And if you follow it, you can win whatever it is, even the stop sign, for that matter, you can win. The guidebooks will show you how to do it.

Ralph Nader (47:33)

I like the subtitle of Your annual report, 2024. Check it out, listeners. Watch Mentoring a Movement, Empowering People, Preventing Harm. In your trips around the country, you must have seen some real heartbreaking parents with their children dying from leukemia or other toxic chemical induced, horrible ailment. Describe what that did to you.

Lois Gibbs (47:59)

Well, it does two things. I mean, when you're sitting in the living room with a mom who said, my children were born normal, they reached all the markers through their infancy. And then at three years old, when they used to go play at the creek, and five years old, they played at the creek, they were exposed to mercury from the pharmaceutical industry. And as a result of that mercury exposure, they are now severely retarded and they no longer can even go to the bathroom like a regular person. They have to wear diapers and they have to wear adult diapers because they're now not babies. And you listen to that story and it breaks your heart. It's like, who has a right to do that? Like, how did that happen? Why was that mercury released into that stream? Why wasn't there any kind of warning that mothers should not allow their children to go sit there and play with pollywogs or whatever was in the stream? And so on one hand it makes me incredibly sad. I mean, these are real people with real dreams for their children. And now their dreams have changed dramatically because their children are not the healthy, average child that they gave birth to in their birth rights. But the other part is that it pisses me off. That's perfect English, that there is no reason why anyone should ever have gotten sick like that. How dare the industry, a pharmaceutical industry, just put this out there. And oh, by the way, the government gave them approval with their Whole permit. And we look at these permits that allow the stuff to go out the stack and land into the creek. And the children played in the creek. And it's a circle of poison and poverty, by the way, because people who live by these factories are not wealthy people, they're poor people. Which is why, you know, sheltering in place doesn't work. When you don't have a window that seals, the stuff comes right in through the window. You know, it's just, it's just awful. But anyhow, the permitting process is essentially giving corporate America the license to kill. Now they say it only kills one in a million people per stack, per stack, but we know that it kills many more. In our Toxic Tuesday little bulletins that, you know, explain what these chemicals are. Anybody who's ever gone across the Delaware Memorial Bridge on the left hand side you will see this huge factory. And right next to that factory is a low income African American family, very brave human beings, you know, had the American dream, all that kind of stuff, had owned their own little tiny houses. And the Union Carbine, or Dupont, I think it's dupont, who owned it at the time, wanted to put a hazardous waste incinerator there. These people are already. And this is how corporate America deals with the folks. So they go and they say, you want your jobs, then you have to be exposed to this poison. And putting another incinerator here is not really going to make a difference. After all, we already have 1700 discharge points. I'm like, 1700 discharge points. Each one of those discharge points, which are air discharges, will allow one child or one adult to have cancer and die. What kind of system do we have when we give the legal hunting rights to corporate America to kill our families? Whether it's our child that's unborn, our child that is born, or our mom or our dad, or our sisters and brothers. Where did that happen? No one has the right to do that. And so when I said that to the corporation guy who was walking me around saying, well, we already have 17, what's one more? It was like, no, you know what? There's a point where we have to draw a line in the sand. And consider this the line in the sand. And that's what happens in communities across the country. And they fought really hard to stop this incinerator.

Ralph Nader (51:39)

Well, you know, part of the answer to your question is that corporations emit silent violence. Not like a brutal beating in an alley and a street crime. It's silent violence. The coffin, you can't see it, you can't taste it, you can't touch it. It leads to silent death. And the death certificate will say, well, this child died from cancer, but basically this child died from dupont. And of course they never get their name on the death certificate. The question I want to ask you now is you're retired and so who's going to carry on and how do you produce more Lois Gibbs that actually come out of the tragedy of their toxic surroundings and build national movements?

Lois Gibbs (52:25)

That's a really good question. I am retired, but here I am on your show. So a little bit of work here and there. Ralph, you know the one thing when we started CHEJ back in the day when we did the opening ceremony with you and John Richards and people in the Carnegie center, one of the things we decided then was we were not going to have a big office with 15, 25 staff and have some kind of pyramid structure. That CAJ was going to build a movement which had hubs of people across the country. So places where people come together regionally, sometimes larger than local, depending on how urban the area is. And they are the strength of our movement. And so although I'm retired, Jackie Medkoff, who is from Houston, talk about being in the belly of the beast. Who's from Houston is going to carry CatJ. We're transitioning everything from People's Action to Jackie. Jackie organized her community to fight against international paper and then she won against Pacific Rail, Union Rail and a number of other things. And now she's been organizing regionally in Texas and she wants to do national organizing and she believes in the same philosophy we have, which is not to build an office with 15 people and do a top down kind of organizing, but build and train hubs of people all across the country to come together and fight locally. Because when the local people move, so will the Congress, so will corporate America, because they have no choice that we can. I mean, you saw what we did with Target. Oh my goodness. Target rolled over on everything. Disney rolled over on everything. Because when the people say we we're not playing this way anymore, then the corporations and Congress will roll over. So now it's going to be transferred to the Texas Health and Environment alliance in Houston, Texas. They're going to continue with the various organizing and training, the toxic Tuesdays, the monthly training meetings that we do with people, which always has over 115 people on it and they're all taped and then they're used again. So I'm really excited because it will never die because it's connected to 900 communities across the country who are all organizing locally and regionally. And so that's the power of the people, and I think that's the power of caj.

Ralph Nader (54:48)

Well, the power of your leadership is you always gave credit to these people around the country. You didn't try to corral the credit and inflate your ego. You want to comment on the present scene, the Trump scene, and environmental accountability?

Lois Gibbs (55:02)

Yeah, I think it's really scary. And I think this is a time where people across the country, whether you're an environmentalist or not, should be standing up and speaking out. This is about clean water. He's going to go into the wetlands, he's going into Alaska. He's going to places and he's going to destroy pristine areas where we get our water from and our food from. And that is really frightening because you're not going to know about that for years down the line. So this is where people should really get involved and talk about how to move and write letters and call the White House and call whoever you can, your congressman, your legislator, and say, like, you cannot do this. You must stop it. You must stand up to him and.

Ralph Nader (55:36)

Say, no, you don't have to live in Alaska to feel the brunt. He's telling the auto companies they can start polluting more. He's lifting requirements to control their emissions. Factories the same way, mines, quarries and waste dumps, solid waste disposal. I mean, it's green light, you know, do whatever you want. We have Trump to pardon you if you happen by chance to get prosecuted and convicted. It's the worst ever, in my judgment, in terms of protecting people from the silent, deadly violence of toxics in their air, water, food and soil. We're out of time. You want to give that website slowly once again, Lois, and then we hope our listeners will pick up and start making things happen in their community the way you did.

Lois Gibbs (56:23)

Yeah. Thank you, Ralph. And thank you for having me on the show. The website where people can connect is C H E J and we'd love for you to connect with us.

Ralph Nader (56:34)

And CHEJ stands for center for Health, Environment and Justice. Thank you very much, Lois Gibbs.

Lois Gibbs (56:41)

Thank you.

Steve Skrovan (56:42)

We've been speaking with Lois Gibbs. We will link to her work@ralphnaderradiowour.com I want to thank our guests again, Dr. Tina Ellsworth, Kelly Stratman and Lois Gibbs. For those of you listening on the radio, that's our show. For you podcast listeners, stay tuned for some bonus material we call the Wrap Up Featuring Francesco De Santis with In Case youe haven't heard. A transcript of this program will appear on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour substack site soon after the episode is posted.

David Feldman (57:09)

To order your copy of the Capitol Hill Citizen Democracy Dies in Broad Daylight. It's@capitol hillcitizen.com and remember to continue the.

Steve Skrovan (57:19)

Conversation after each program. You can go to the comments section@ralphnaderadiohour.com and post a comment or question on this week's episode.

David Feldman (57:27)

The producers of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour are Jimmy Lee Wirt, Hannah Feldman and Matthew Marin. Our executive producer is Alan Minsky.

Steve Skrovan (57:35)

Our theme music, stand Up, Rise up, was written and performed by Kemp Harris. Our proofreader is Elizabeth Solomon.

David Feldman (57:41)

Join us next week on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Thank you, Ralph.

Ralph Nader (57:45)

Thank you, everybody. Stand up and step up. You ought to step up.

Kelly Stratman (57:52)

Rise up.

Ralph Nader (57:54)

I know you wanna rise up. I think that you should step up. This is John Crumshow with a special Politics or Pedagogy education report. Please make Your contribution at 818-985-5735 or pledge online@kpfk.org Joining me in studio is Bill Maestas.

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (58:43)

He is a longtime public defender.

Ralph Nader (58:46)

Welcome to Politics or Pedagogy.

Bill Maestas (58:48)

Nice to be here, John. Thank you.

Ralph Nader (58:50)

Julene Maxwell, we need a little legal.

Dr. Tina Ellsworth (58:53)

Understanding of what situation she faces.

Ralph Nader (58:56)

Will you tell us about it, please?

Bill Maestas (58:57)

Yes. Jeanne Maxwell is a co conspirator with Jeffrey Epstein. She was found guilty of serious crimes involving trafficking of minor women for sex purposes. What's occurring now is she is seeking release from prison. She was given 20 years of time in a federal prison. Within the last several months, she has been interviewed by President Trump's personal attorney. And as a result of that interview, she was released from her medium security jail to a less confining jail commonly referred to as Club Fed, where a lot of white collar defendants go over and above that. She has been given special treatment at this facility. She has been allowed to order out. She has been allowed personal record time. She has been treated.