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- [00:00]
Chuck Foster
90.7 FM.
- [00:00]
Andy Shalal
This is Chuck Foster. I host Reggae Central every Sunday afternoon right here on KPFK at 2 o', clock, where you'll hear Scott 8, KPFK, Rocksteady, Roots, Dub and Dancehall every Sunday afternoon at 2 right here on KPFK, 90.7 FM in LA.
- [00:45]
Hi, this is Shepard Ferry, and you're.
- [00:47]
Steve Scrovan
Listening to KPFK 90.7 FM, Los Angeles. This is People Powered Radio.
- [00:57]
Alan Minsky
This is Chris Hedges, and you're listening.
- [00:59]
Chuck Foster
To the Ralph Nader Radio Hour.
- [01:01]
Andy Shalal
Stand up. Stand up. You've been sitting way too long.
- [01:10]
Steve Scrovan
Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. My name is Steve Scrovan, along with my co host, David Feldman. Hello, David.
- [01:16]
Chuck Foster
Hello, Steve.
- [01:18]
Steve Scrovan
And our trusty producer, Hannah Feldman. Hello, Hannah.
- [01:21]
Alan Minsky
Hello, Steve.
- [01:23]
Steve Scrovan
And the man of the hour of Ralph Nader. Hello, Ralph.
- [01:27]
Andy Shalal
Hello, everybody.
- [01:29]
Alan Minsky
Hi.
- [01:29]
Steve Scrovan
This is Steve Scrovan from the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. And it has been my distinct privilege to be able to be doing this show on KPFK, the Ralph Nader Radio Hour, for over 11 and a half years. We have done 603 episodes. And it's been my privilege to be able to work with Ralph, this frankly historical figure, and hear him interact with guests and monologue his own thoughts about what is going on in probably the most critical point of history, in our nation's history, at least since the Civil War. And Ralph is not shy about saying that, you know, he lived through Nixon, and this is much worse than Nixon when you have an administration of Donald Trump who is basically trying to undo everything that Ralph spent an entire life working for, which is watchdogging the government, making the government accountable, helping create certain government agencies that protect us, like the epa, things like the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act. These are things Ralph has worked for, and these are things the Trump administration is tearing down and dismantling. So it's been a tremendous education for me and it's been my privilege to do that. And I'm so grateful to kpfk, our mother station, for putting us on the air those 11 and a half years ago. So it's important and Ralph would agree with me to support KPFK. And if you want to support KFPFK, go to 818-985-5735. That's 818985, KPFK. To donate online, just go to kpfk.org and support radio. That really makes a difference and is more important than ever. As we hear about Sinclair Broadcasting and nexstar and all these very conservative distributors having the stranglehold on descent. So call now at 818-985-5735. That's 818-9858. KPFK. Call now. Support the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Those of you who know Ralph's personal history will recall that his father, Natra, owned a restaurant in their hometown of Winstead, Connecticut. And Ralph has said that in their restaurant, for a nickel, you got a cup of coffee and 10 minutes of politics. In that same spirit, our first guest today is Andy Shalal. Andy Shalal is the owner of the Washington, D.C. based restaurant Busboys and Poets. Busboys and Poets became a celebrated hub for political activism that has been frequented by figures like Angela Davis, Howard Zinn, Alice Walker and, yes, Ralph Nader. Mr. Shalal's written a new book about the history of his restaurant, A Seat at the Table, the Making of Busboys and Poets. Next up, we'll welcome business consultant activist Bennett Freeman. Early in his career, Mr. Freeman worked at General Electric under Jack Welch. We've spoken about the notorious Jack Welch with David Gellis, who wrote the book the man who Broke Capitalism. It seems like Mr. Freeman has taken a different route from his former boss. He's been affiliated with public interest groups around the world, prodding big multinational corporations to do the right thing. Today we'll welcome him to discuss why big business is not standing up to the Trump administration, even to protect its own interests. As always, somewhere in the middle, we'll check in with our indomitable corporate crime reporter Russell Mokiver. But first, let's talk to Andy Shalal about how the power of food can bring people together.
- [05:15]
David Feldman
DAVID Andy Shalal is an activist, artist and social entrepreneur. Mr. Shalal is the founder and proprietor of Busboys and Poets restaurants in the Washington, D.C. area, which feature prominent speakers, poets and authors and provide a venue for social and political activism. Is also co founder of the Peace Cafe and and a member of the board of trustees for the Institute of Policy Studies. He's the author of the new book A Seat at the the Making of Busboys and Poets. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Andy Shalal, thank you so much.
- [05:52]
Andy Shalal
David yes, welcome back, Andy. Let's go back to the origin here. You came to the United states at age 11 from Iraq with your parents and siblings. Give us an idea of how you grew up here and how you got involved in food.
- [06:09]
You know, you actually loon quite big in my life, certainly here in the United States. And you know, and I write about it in the book and I'm really indebted to all the support that you've given me over the years, I really appreciate it. My family moved here. My father was offered a position as representing the Arab league back in 1966. He was between jobs and happened to stumble over this offer. And of course it was an offer he could refuse because, you know, coming to America was the biggest prize anyone can get. To be able to come here and be a diplomat was something very, very special for him. But you know, circumstances took a turn and the era of The Israeli War, 1967 happened and there was a lot of turmoil back home. And he decided rather than return to try to make a go of it and stay here in the United States, try to make a living. He had a PhD in literature and really didn't have any other serious skills that he could apply here. So being a professor was the most logical position that he could get. And again, by some strange turn of events, a friend of his said, you know, you're in America, America is all about business. Why are you going to a professor at a university? That seems like a dead end job. And he said, I have a restaurant that I want to be able to sell. Because he was getting, that person was getting older and really did not want to continue in the business. I wanted to sell it. So my father didn't know anything about restaurants, didn't know anything about how to operate the restaurant. Sure. The guy said, it's really not that difficult, you just have to know just some basics. And my father believed him, I guess, and decided, let's make a go of it. And he did. And while the rest is history, we started working there. As I started working there, suddenly me and my brother started working there as young boys and learned the business kind of from the inside out.
- [08:04]
Well, what was interesting about your career early on is you self taught, so tell us how you became. And you may not agree to this, but you became really an expert in Arabic cuisine. I mean the hummus, the baba ghanuj, the beit and jan. It's just wonderful. And you also taught how to do this to the cooks that are in your restaurant. You're known for treating your workers very well. You pay them above the rate of normal restaurant owners. You empower them, you give them an opportunity to voice their concerns and dreams and wishes. You have one of the most rigorous REST recruitment operations I've ever seen. And you interview people, you enjoy interviewing people and talking to them about their inhibitions, where they censor themselves, what they think of the society. Describe how you emerged in this area.
- [08:59]
Well, like Many immigrant families, my parents were involved in the restaurant, but they never saw that as a career for us. They. They wanted me to be a doctor. They wanted my brother to be an engineer, like I think many immigrant families aspire to, and they end up getting half of what they wished for. My brother did, in fact, become an engineer. I did not become a doctor and. But I worked in various jobs, including working as a researcher at ih. I really don't like to be around blood. I faint at the sight of blood. But I still. Till today, if somebody draws blood from me, I can't look at. At the needle or I cannot look at the tube of blood getting filled. It makes me queasy. So I. I knew that wasn't really my calling, so to speak, but I went ahead. I wanted to please my parents. I did much as possible to be able to go that direction. And then I decided, you know what? I'm going to have to live my life. And I got to be able to figure out what to do. So I decided to, just as a placeholder, started to wake tables. I knew how to do that, of course, working in my father's place for a couple of years. And it was an easy transition to do that. While I'm thinking of what to do, started reading, started studying, thinking of career options and so on, and really end up just falling in love with the restaurant business. And it wasn't the business that I fell in love with. It was the power of food. The power of food to convene people, bring them to the table. And once you're there, once there are people are sitting, breaking bread together, opportunities take shape, and all kinds of things can happen. You know, your relationships change and so on. I really wanted to sort of hone in on that part of the business, trying to figure out how can I use the restaurant business as a way for me to find my tribe, to find people of like mind who believe that a better world is possible, who believe in peace, believe in justice, believe in all these things, but under the rubric of this restaurant, basically, and wanted to use it as a model really to my beliefs. So all the programs that we do, all the events that we put out, all the conversations we have with staff and all that, it all revolves around issues of social justice and, you know, ways that we can actually be better humans and better relationships with other human beings on this planet.
- [11:24]
Well, you were active civically in Washington, D.C. as well. You. You often provided bridges between contrary viewpoints by various people. And I want to ask you, as a Person who was born in Iraq right after the criminal invasion by Bush and Cheney of Iraq. You saw your ancestral country destroyed, so you spoke out and you became a leader in educating people about where Iraq came from. Ancient Mesopotamia. You were a very important link. Describe what the reaction was to all this, especially on your own business.
- [12:00]
Yeah. When the Iraq war was just starting, there was very few people of Iraqi descent that were speaking out. I think people were quite afraid. It was right after 9, 11, that had just happened just a couple years before that. And I think people felt very afraid to be able to speak out. There was a lot of hatred toward Arabs, toward Muslims and others who were of that part of the region of the world, I should say. But I always felt like part of my duty as a citizen, a transplant who became a citizen by choice, is to make sure that I hold democratic principles that this country aspires to. And I say aspires to doesn't mean that it actually does, but it aspires to. And I think we have to hold our country to higher standards. I think oftentimes people just think that their main role in a democracy is to vote. And we see how much there is effort to go out and vote, go out and vote, go out and vote. But nobody really talks about the process of a democracy that is not voting. Voting is the last thing you need to do. It's not the most important by far, but it certainly is oftentimes seen as the main thing and the only thing oftentimes. I worked in the Democratic Party of Fairfax county, and I remember very clearly every time I brought up issues of concern like universal health care, like universal college education, like anti war stuff particularly, I was shunned. I was seen as a radical and oftentimes was told to just kind of behave and just toe the party line. Because our job as Democrats was to elect Democrats regardless of where they stand, and not to sit there and have long, deep discussions about positions or about platform. That's not our job. There's a committee that does that, and our job, our dominions that go around and convince people that they have to vote for these votes. And I just refuse to be, you know, this little cog in this wheel that I'm being used basically to just promote something that I had no interest in promoting. So I really was very serious about my Democratic responsibilities. And then I really started to think about restaurants as Democratic hubs, as places where people come together and actually learn something about their responsibilities, their civic duties, their issues that are of concern to them. So I put A bookstore there for a very specific reason. The bookstore is supposed to be a place of knowledge. And, and so I wanted to put books there that can help people to figure things out if they need to. I put a spaces where people can sit together and not just dine alone necessarily, but also be able to interact with other people because oftentimes that is needed. We are too isolated too often and feel like we're the only ones that think a certain way. But it requires sometimes conversations with others to realize that you're not alone, that you actually are part of this big ecosystem who believe that a better world is possible. And then I put a stage there to be able to invite speakers and people that are actually conveners of these types of conversations and panels and so on, have much deeper conversations, allow people to have that exchange with so called experts in different areas. So all of these things, I wanted to make sure that they come together. You know, the first Gulf War, 9, 11, 2003, when the Iraq war happened. All of these things were moment that moments to me that made me sort of reconsider what American democracy means and how it operates. And really constant is the constant struggle to make sure that this country upholds its ideals. And I feel like everybody needs to do their part. My part is to create spaces that bring people together, that help them to understand what those ideals and discuss them with other people.
- [15:58]
You know, the amazing thing that you broke through was all over the country for decades, retailers are told, keep your mouth shut, don't get into controversial issues, don't be outspoken because it's going to hurt your business. And you've proved just the opposite. You are outspoken. You speak your mind, you invite people who are outspoken. You don't say, well, we don't want to be associated with these people because then people will stop patronizing our restaurant. How do you explain that? You is very counterintuitive. It actually works to your advantage.
- [16:28]
Well, I think people, they look for authenticity. They may not agree with you, but they respect you and they respect your opinion. So I think we have a much, much bigger tolerance for that. I think in this country that people are led to believe. I think that what I see and I see people coming from all different parts of the aisle and certainly different ideology and different beliefs come together and have these conversations. You know, as long as they're done with clarity and they're done with good intentions. And I think people really see through that and are willing to accept the fact that yeah, they just like the food for us and they're not there for anything else. We have people that come. We have many, many people that come to the restaurant that are not apolitical or would consider themselves apolitical. And yet they've come in because they enjoy catfish or they enjoy the salmon or they enjoy something else. Part of it for me is I want to make sure that I provide a really good product because that's really the engine that drives everything else, right? So if I had mediocre food or mediocre service or mediocre this and that, the politics can become actually much more of an issue for people. But you know, when you provide really good food and provide really good service, I think people are more likely to. To show up and more likely to be open minded about what you have to offer in the way of ideas and politics and other things. So I think there's something to be said about that. It's like art, right? You can do a painting that tells a story about some political issue. If the painting is bad, it's sort of like it makes the political issue seem really kind of silly. But if the painting is really good, people are willing to take a look and pay attention to it and be able to actually get more out of it. I think the challenge that we have is we have to constantly be at our A game. We don't have a lot of flexibility to not be at the A game when you are willing to stick your neck out politically.
- [18:26]
Where did you get the name Busboys and Poets? And tell us about the artwork that's on the walls of your restaurant that you created.
- [18:34]
So Bus Boys and Poets is named after the great poet Langston Hughes, the poet of the Harlem Renaissance, as he is known. The building as is really what sort of called on the name. So the building that I looked at, the first space for Busboys and Poets, the building was called the Langston Lofts. Langston Lofts was a mid rise condo building that had retail space on the first floor. And I took over the retail space and wanted to make sure that the name is in alignment to the name of the building. I had studied Langston Hughes as a kid coming to America and, and I knew of course a lot about Langsnius, knew a lot about his poetry. But I discovered that he really was. He had worked as a bus boy while writing poetry. And it was one night back in 1924, he was working in the Wardman Park Hotel when a very famous poet by the name of Vachelindsay happened to walk into the restaurant where Lang sin Hughes was working. Lang Sinus wrote some poetry on a piece of paper, slipped it next to Vacher, Lindsay's plate Botch and Lindsay looked at it and nodded approvingly from a distance. And the next day, on his way to work, Langston News picked up the newspaper and read that Botch and Lindsay had discovered a busboy poet that sort of elevated his status because as a black man, he had a very difficult time trying to find traction in the work that he was doing. And of course, he encountered this white poet who was able to dine in the restaurant where Lythonus couldn't die. What could work was an opportunity that Langston, you saw and slipped some of the poetry next to him. And so of course, after that, there was a lot of paparazzi who wanted to take his picture, who wanted to know more about this bus boy poet. And he ended up leaving his job as a busboy at the Wortman Park Hotel and became one, of course, the most prolific and well known poets of our time and traveled all over the country giving speeches and writing and made a living out of it. After that, he didn't have to work other jobs other than what he loved was writing and studying poetry.
- [20:37]
Listeners, I've called Andy Shalal, democracy's restaurateur, and he really fits the bill. We're discussing his new book, A Seat at the the Making of Busboys and Poets. You know, I've always been astonished at the amnesia the American people have regarding what they did to Iraq. I mean, the devastation was huge. And I want to read for our listeners a section of how you viewed it. It's on page 149, after a passage from Langdon Hughes's poetry said, quote, americans were about to learn Iraq's geography. Fallujah, Karbala, Mosul, Basra. My family had visited these cities and towns. They were familiar to me. I knew them as places with a rich culture and a history that stretched back to before biblical times. They were part of a land with 500 varieties of date. We had 10 varieties in our backyard alone in Baghdad, where I grew up, so much that I took for granted, there are more ancient artifacts per square foot in Iraq than in any other place on the planet. This is the land of Hammurabi, the Tower of Babel, and the Arch of Chrysophon, under which my family used to picnic. Now these places were being destroyed, their names mispronounced by twisted American tongue that made them feel unfamiliar. Now they're being identified solely as sites of battles and massacres, torture, prisons, mass graves. I was angry, sad, confused, and feeling desperately alone. I am Arab, a Muslim and Iraqi, but I'm also an American. And this felt more like a contradiction every day that passed. End quote. You didn't just stop there, Andy Shalal. You convened a lot of gatherings, including those by Howard Zinn, who you developed a strong friendship with at your restaurants. You also spent a lot of time on Capitol Hill. You're very constructive. You don't just wallow in the misery of our devastating empire abroad. And you've been going up to Capitol Hill a lot recently on the Palestinian genocide issue. Can you describe that and give us your views right up to date?
- [22:47]
Well, activism is the best antidote to depression. I mean, it's really hard to be able to sit back and especially now with social media and everything else that's right at your fingertips, to be able to watch little babies being snipered and their limbs being chopped up. And it just feels so, so horrific. And the only way you can really be able to make sense of it, if there's any way to make sense of it, is to continue to fight for a better world and not just kind of accept it. That was just the way it is. I think in these days, we're seeing more and more people being depressed and feeling very, very isolated, yet they have the world at their fingertips, you know, so we're seeing this sort of, and I'm noticing it, this sort of full circle where we're actually going back to a more of an analog way of connecting with people as opposed to this digital world that I think has left us far less informed, if anything, and really much more isolated. And so I think part of the idea of going to Capitol Hill and making phone calls to members of Congress is so that you feel somehow you have some say in your life and what's happening around you. I think one of the worst things you can do is to just kind of look at these horrible images and just walk away, because that really leaves you very, very alone and very depressed. Since October 7th opened up a whole new thing for activists and really kind of exposed in a very stark way the myth of Western civilization. The idea of how obvious the lies and the deceit that's been happening and the power of the military industrial complex that we've been warned about over the years, I think it's taking shape right now, and we're starting to understand it more and more. And as I think we are trying to free Gaza and free Palestine at the same time, I think Gaza and Palestine are freeing us to be able to understand our system better, know where our soft spots are and be able to be who the allies are, be able to work on making that better world that I think we all strive for. I'm surrounding myself more and more with people that I believe actually care about humanity. And I think that's the way that it's a very selfish thing of course, to do because that's the only way I think that we can survive through this very, very horrific times. And what's encouraging is that it's not for naught because we're seeing the change. We're seeing the tide turning. Yes, it's slow as molasses, but it's still moving in the right direction. Still. There's a sense that people have that more and more people are recognizing the horrors that I think this country has perpetrated over the years, continues to perpetrate. And the complicity, and not only complicity, but actually the involvement and a genocide that is live streamed before all of us. There's no way to deny it at this point. So I think that that's encouraging in the sense that it's there. The part that's always discouraging is that despite all that, we continue to arm, continue to wreak havoc all over the world. We're at a breaking point. There is something happening that will come out of this, I think, in a better place than we were before we started.
- [26:15]
Let's go to Steve.
- [26:17]
Steve Scrovan
Andy, tell us some stories. You've had Howard Zinn, you've had Alice Walker, you've had Angela Davis, you've had Ralph Nader. Tell us a memorable story about something that happened in the restaurant.
- [26:29]
Andy Shalal
Well, I mean, there's so many, honestly. And that's why I ended the book at the opening of Busboys and Poets, because if I start going into stories, it's going to be a thousand page book. So there's been so many events that have been really remarkable. I think one of the most interesting stories was at the beginning, when I first opened the place, I had no idea it was going to do as well as it did. I knew that there were people out there who may want to enjoy that kind of a place, but I didn't know where they are. I didn't know how many there are. I didn't know whether they would show up. And it just happened. And I write about this, the book actually a little bit. It just happened that the opening time that we did, which was 2005, coincided with the kind of the peak of the Iraq War. At that point there was A lot of demonstrations out in the street. People were coming from everywhere. Hollywood, in fact, you know, we had Jane Fonda and Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins. So many others were actually in town at these demonstrations. And so we opened Bus Boys and Poets early September. And I think the end of September was the big march on Washington that brought In, I think 3/4 of a million people, if I'm not mistaken, with lots and lots of events and program and every kind of social justice organization was involved in it. And Buzzboard, the Post became a hub. And I remember one night right before the demonstration, I'm walking through the dining room and I've got Amy Goodman sitting at the bar talking to Ralph. I've got Jim Hightower, I've got Tom Hayden, I've got Jane Fonda, I've got Cornell West. There were so many people in there, iconic figures of the civil rights and peace movement that were inside the same space, all sitting, eating and moving about and talking to each other and hugging each other and getting. It was really remarkable. And I remember Cindy Sheehan, I think many of your listeners may know, was the mother of the. I think the first casualty of the war found that mistaken. Her son was killed and became a huge outspoken proponent for peace and ending the war. She was there as well. And the following day, something like that, they had gone to a civil disobedience action where, you know, about 30 or 40 activists, including Cindy, were arrested. And they were arrested and taken to the local holding pen, whatever they go to be able to process them. By the time they were done, it was like about maybe 12 o' clock at night, we had already closed. I got a phone call from somebody on the bus on their way back that says, hey, we just got released and we're starving, we're hungry. Is there anything open right now? Can you do that? And we had already closed. I said, yes, come on over. So I went in the kitchen and took out some eggs, took out some cheese, took out some milk to get some other things and I made omelets. And we sat around 30 of us in the dining room up till like 4 or 5 o' clock in the morning, eating omelets and drinking coffee and having these wonderful conversations. So that was kind of really exciting. The other part, of course, was when Obama was elected, that was a huge moment for us. Certainly people were using busboys and poets many times to watch debates, to be able to watch the returns on the election and so on. And the day of the election was mayhem, where people just went insane. When Obama finally was announced to be president. That was crazy. That was a crazy day. We had some broken furniture. I mean, from the excitement, they were jumping on top of tables. I mean, it was, it was crazy. So there's been so many, so many moments like that, I can't even begin to stop telling them.
- [30:05]
One of the great innovations of Andy was when the inaugural ball for the elected president was going on. Tell us what you did as an alternative every four years.
- [30:17]
Yeah, we decided to start doing inaugural balls. And the inaugural balls, we decided aren't really about the president, but really about bringing together people who are basically friends of ours, you know, people who come to us boys and poets and people who are in the peace and justice movement and the social justice movement. And so we started creating these what we call peace balls. And so they became iconic events. I mean, one of the last ones we did was done the day before Donald Trump was elected the first time. That's back in 2017, where we had the African American Museum, where we rented the entire African American museum for the event. And there were 4,000 people that came to that event. And people like Angela Davis and Nikki Giovanni and Alice Walker and Amy Goodman and you name it, who's who of the social justice speakers and movements and so on were there. That was a huge, huge event. We had share, we had, we had Macklemore, we had people like that that were like in the audience just happened during that time. They were having the Women's March happening two days later and people just wanted to be around other people that they enjoy being around. So we had all these people just show up. It was really, really exciting. So, yeah, the Beast Balls have become a fixture every four years. We host them and we bring in some really amazing people. And I think one of the things that I find is necessary for movements to be sustained is to have joy. You've got to have opportunities for joy. You got to have opportunities for people to actually have fun together, really feel like they're part of a community. Because a lot of times the work we do isn't fun. It's soul sucking work, you know, and you, you need to have those opportunities to be able to refuel and re energize. And that's what we do though.
- [32:12]
Well, on that note, we're out of time. We've been speaking with Andy Shalal, author of the new book A Seat at the Table, the Making of Busboys and Poets. And the forward is by Angela Davis. Thank you very much, Andy.
- [32:26]
Thank you. It's my pleasure, Ralph. Thank you so much. It's always wonderful talking to you. And thank you, Steve. Thank you, David. Thank you, Hannah.
- [32:33]
Steve Scrovan
We've been speaking with Andy Shalom. We will link to his work@ralphnaderradiohour.com up next, why is big business not standing up to the Trump administration even to protect its own interests? We'll find out when we come back. But first, let's check in with our corporate crime reporter, Russell Mokiver.
- [32:49]
Russell Mokiver
From the National Press building in Washington, D.C. this is your Corporate Crime Reporter Morning minute for Friday, October 10th, 2025. I'm Russell Mulcaiber. Corporations that get deferred non prosecution agreements are more likely to commit subsequent violations compared to those entering plea deals. That's the finding of a recent academic paper titled Determinants of and Future Violations Following Deferred Prosecution and non prosecution Agreements in Corporate Criminal Cases. The Department of Justice increasing use of deferred prosecution and non prosecution agreements over the past two decades has sparked debate about their merits compared with traditional plea deals, which often result in criminal convictions. The study examines the factors influencing prosecutors decisions to use these agreements in disciplining firms for corporate misconduct. The authors analyze whether the likelihood of a firm's future misconduct varies by the type of discipline imposed for the corporate crime reporter. I'm Russell Mulcyber.
- [33:45]
Steve Scrovan
Thank you, Russell. Welcome back to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. I'm Steve Scrovan along with David Feldman, Hannah and Ralph. Let's find out why successful businessmen are so reluctant to stand up to a failed businessman.
- [33:58]
David Feldman
David Bennet Friedman is principal of Bennett Freeman Associates, where he advises multinational corporations, international institutions and NGOs on policy and strategy related to human rights and labor rights. Mr. Freeman was founding chair of the advisory board for Global Witness, an investigative campaigning organization that challenges the power of climate wrecking companies. Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. Bennett Freeman.
- [34:31]
Chuck Foster
Thank you very much, David. And thanks to the whole team and especially Ralph Nader, who I've admired at the risk of dating both of us since I was a kid growing up in San Francisco in the 1960s and 1970s. And I just want to salute you for your just extraordinary impact on consumer safety and more broadly on corporate accountability in the United States. So thank you. A pleasure to join you.
- [34:58]
Andy Shalal
You're very welcome, Bennett. The theme that we're going to explore today is why big business is not challenging Trump. And that was the core of the interview that you gave recently to Corporate Crime Reporter. And that caught my attention. And, and after that there were two articles, one by the Labor Reporter in the New York Times about businesses not speaking up against Trump's assaults on labor and other necessities of life in the United States. And then there was another article in the Washington Post on the silence of Silicon Valley, which actually went beyond silence and moved into obeisance. I think the reason is called extortion. Do you agree that the extortion lever is really the best excuse that these corporations have to protect their own business from severe deprivation, if not bankruptcy, and protect shareholder value, which they treasure?
- [35:56]
Chuck Foster
Well, Ralph, it may be their best excuse, but it just shouldn't cut the mustard with Americans, whether in the business community or other walks of life. You correctly characterized the silence and obeisance of much of corporate America, not least the tech CEOs, so far this year. I would use another pair of words as well to characterize their stance, which I think during the campaign last year in 2024 was complacency. I think the complacency now has become complicity in a dramatic, historic Democratic backsliding in the United States with the erosion of rule of law and our constitutional democracy. Extortion. That's one word one can use. I think that this goes to fear of intimidation, fear of retribution. Those fears were apparent during the campaign last year. In 2024, the silence of corporate America was deafening in the face of what were demonstrable threats leveled by candidate Trump to our rule of law and our constitutional democracy. And one would have thought that leaders in corporate of America would have absorbed the realities and lessons of what happened on January 6, 2021, and follow in the footsteps then of the leader of the national association of Manufacturers, who, by the way, if I recall correctly, made that call, Vice President Pence to convene the Cabinet, invoke the 25th Amendment to remove Trump ahead by an hour or two of both then Speaker Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Schumer. Quite extraordinary coming from corporate America. And we look back now, at least I do, on that statement, that dramatic act at that time, and look at it as sort of a quaint relic of a bygone era. These companies are pulverized by fear of again of crimination, of retribution, extortion, the words that you want to use There, there. But I also, you know, I'm sorry to say that in my view, they have been attracted and even entranced by the prospect of corporate deregulation, lower corporate taxation and the tech community by developing AI at an accelerated pace without rules, standards or guardrails. So from a short term business perspective, they're getting what they want. And if they don't do what Trump says, they get their heads handed to them. The point though, that I feel strongly about is that they're overlooking their long term interest to the extent that anybody in corporate America cares about anything long term anymore. And I would like to still believe somehow, even if nobody in corporate America does, that the livelihoods of American workers and communities and the success of American business and that the stability and prosperity of the US and global economy depends on the rule of law in constitutional democracy. Corporate America used to sort of get that. They've lost it.
- [39:12]
Andy Shalal
Well, the difference between 2021 is Trump was defeated at that time January 6th, and he was on the way out, so they didn't have to fear him. Whereas in 2024 he was reelected and they do have to fear him. But you indicate something quite interesting. They're very reluctant to stand up alone and then they would be targeted, although a couple of them have done so, but they're retired. The former head of American Express, for example. But you point out if they all got together, if the National Federation of Independent Business nfib, tens of thousands of small businesses who are really hurting with canceled contracts and grants and many other deprivations that they are uniquely vulnerable to compared to big business, if they all got together, it would be hard to pick one off to target one or two. Could you elaborate on any efforts that you discern where they're going to pull together? They've got to do that on tariffs, because now the tariffs are starting to hit hard as of October 1st. So there are bread and butter rather than ideological issues that they can coordinate on. So they can speak as a collective.
- [40:28]
Chuck Foster
Absolutely. It's understandable, even if it's not acceptable, that individual companies and CEOs will not speak out. And you rightly cite Ken Chenault, the former CEO of American Express, I would add Ken Frazier, the former CEO of Merck, who did speak out very clearly last year during the election campaign, but they're unwilling to stick their necks out. Now individually, but even collectively, with very, very few exceptions, one would like to think that the national association of Manufacturers, the Business Roundtable, the BRT itself, being really the cohort of the top couple hundred CEOs in corporate America, that that's what they're there to do, is to take one for the team, so to speak, so that current CEOs don have to go out there individually, even though I think that they should do on a principled basis. But there's, if not safety in numbers, at least a little less risk if all of the Business Roundtable, for example, were to come out. For what little it's worth, I've been making that call in pieces I published in the last year in the Financial Times and then again last week elsewhere. But they're just not doing it. With a couple of exceptions. We have heard the major mega Republican donor Ken Griffin, big hedge fund guy, speak out against Trump's pressuring of the independence of Jay Powell and the Fed. Likewise, we've heard that from Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase. But they're more than the the exceptions and the rules. It's likely, in fact, it's certain, that the Business Roundtable and others have been making the case broadly against tariffs, but quietly behind the scenes, while individual companies and whole sectors have been furiously trying to get the White House to cut individual deals, industry by industry case, country by country. So that's all happening. But I think that the real push here is going to come when we see even more ICE raids and God forbid, and it's happening already, more National Guard deployments in American cities. And I'd like to think that the business community might see that that brazen attack on the rule of law, and not just laws, but norms, the way we've conducted ourselves in this, undermines the communities where they operate and puts at risk employees and customers. And I don't want to see these deployments. But if so, it'll be a real further test of the business communities, if we haven't had enough already, to see if there's some sacred or hallowed ground anywhere where they might take a stand. One point I would like to make in both the US And a global context, and I really think that the rule of law is under attack around the world, not just, hardly just in the United States, is that there should be, and again, this sounds quaint, but there should be a common interest between the legal and business communities. I have this view that I've developed in my work in the last decade, for what it's worth, but I've felt strongly about through my career, again, for what it's worth, that business success of business and the domestic economy, the global economy, really depends on rule of law, on accountable governance, on civic freedoms. And many in the business community, and many of those of us who've worked hard for corporate accountability might scoff at that notion. But I believe that the American business, small business, huge corporate America and everything in between has actually prospered and taken for granted, taken for granted the stability of, of our constitutional democracy, the reliability of our rule of law. Certainly there have been aberrations. Watergate was one, but the system worked. Trump was impeached, what, two, three times and so forth. But there should be a common cause here, and again, if not safety in numbers, at least strengthen numbers. And we just have to ask ourselves and challenge the legal and business communities, what's it going to take to understand that everything is on the line here? What more will it take?
- [44:39]
Andy Shalal
Well, obviously Trump keeps pushing the envelope every day in answer to your question, because nobody has stopped them successfully. They've delayed him in the courts, but he may get some approval for what he's doing in the Supreme Court, considering various cases as to whether he violated the Constitution. But in recent days, you've been paying some attention to another powerful organization that you think hasn't spoken out enough, and that's the Business Roundtable. Do you want to tell our listeners about that?
- [45:09]
Chuck Foster
Sure. So the Business Roundtable has been around for decades, and it's really the at the pinnacle of corporate America in the policy world. It's essentially the policy organization representing the top couple hundred CEOs and companies in corporate America. And it's based in Washington, D.C. and I have a little bit of history having interacted with them going back to the mid late 1980s when I was early in my career, I was manager of corporate affairs at GE and hired directly by Jack Welch, the famous to some, infamous to others CEO. And I worked there eight years in the belly of the beast of corporate America from 1985 through 1992. And the business Roundtable has been hugely important and influential, for better or worse, but representing the views of those CEOs. And to their credit, they joined a statement with the national association of manufacturers and the U.S. chamber of Commerce in mid October, late October 2020, just two weeks or less before the 2020 presidential election, calling for peaceful transfer of power. It wasn't some great leap of insight, let alone genius then to anticipate something like January 6th. So to their credit, they did speak up for constitutional democracy. Then they were silent last year and so far this year, now what, nine and a half months into this administration. And they are, it really should be taking some responsibility here, but they aren't because they and their members and they will not act without a consensus with their board, if not a majority of their members, they will not act. And then the members remain pulverized by this intimidation and threats of retribution, which are very tangible. They're not imaginary. So the Business Roundtable should be moving on this. They're not. But what will it take? More deployments of troops in more American cities? Violence? Civil unrest? I sure as hell hope that we don't see anything like that. But between Los Angeles, Portland, Chicago, the writing may be on the wall. And there's some who speculate out loud that those could be pretexts for if there's civil unrest for canceling the midterms. I don't think that's going to happen. I sure as hell hope it does not happen. But those are the kinds of things that could happen that should finally compel the Business Roundtable and the rest of corporate America to, to wake up and stand up.
- [47:52]
Steve Scrovan
Hi again, everybody. This is Steve Scravin. We're taking a short break from our regular programming to do a little fundraising here for kpfk. And I'm joined by our executive producer, the Ralph Nader Radio Hour, and the who's the program director at KPFK when the Ralph Nader Radio hour was born, Mr. Alan Minsky. Hello, Alan.
- [48:11]
Alan Minsky
Hey, it's great to join you, Steve. And you know, I always tell people there is nothing I am more proud of doing in my entire life than the role I played along with you in launching the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. I think this is a gift to the country and all of humanity. In fact, so very proud to work with you on this. And of course, I'm joining you now because it is the KPFK fund drive. KPFK is the home radio station of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. So we want people to call right now, 8189-8557-3581-8985, kpfk. For just $25, you get an annual membership. But, you know, that was a membership level that was set a long time ago. $25 doesn't go very far. I'd encourage right now people to consider $10 a month, just do a $10 a month donation, $120 a year to keep this radio program and this radio station alive as the home station of the of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. You know, who knows? Is there a Ralph Nader Radio Hour without kpfk? So keeping this institution alive right now is so important, and as Steve said earlier in the Hour, more important than ever. And I don't think there's any way that can be overstated. We see a direct attack on free speech writ large and American media in general and to the left.
- [49:26]
Andy Shalal
We can maybe even leave the left.
- [49:27]
Alan Minsky
Out of it because, you know, they're going to label it left, whatever is critical of the Trump administration. However, that fits in really on the left right spectrum. But with this radio show, it is exactly speaking to so much of what Trump opposes and what people need to hear, including the maintenance of democracy, the maintenance of free speech and the maintenance of honest journalism. Nobody, nobody has better analyzed the roots of the crises of American media over these past few decades. Going all the way back to Nader's just fierce and profound opposition to the Telecommunications Act, I believe, of 1996, where the whole Internet was given away to private hands. And all the dangers we've had with that since that with the algorithms controlling our lives, as it were. But also that has allowed for the consolidation of media and the situation that we just see right now with these ins. The very few people own major broadcast media outlets and they are, they are so vulnerable to threats from the Trump administration in terms of their business model. Model. No matter how problematic that business model is, the truth is, is that has given the Trump administration a wedge to demand things from them. They are capitulating. And we need real media. We need not only to keep the Ralph Nader Radio Hour going, we need everybody listening right now to donate to support us. KPFK really might very well need to pay for lawyers in the coming days and weeks, right. To defend the right of free speech, to defend the maintenance of kpfk. So give what you can, but not only do that, give what you can and then let every single person you know, tell them about the Ralph Nader Radio Hour, get them listening in. Share this There is no better one hour a week radio show in the country or the world right now. No one more important than the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. So Steve, very important moment.
- [51:17]
Steve Scrovan
Yes, very important moment, Alan. And I also want to recognize my co host, David Feldman. In the history of the Ralph Nader Radio, it was actually David and you who came to me because you had a slot to fill during a drive time slot and it was in January 2014 and you wanted to do an alternate State of the Union. Obama was president then. And you thought about what about Ralph? And you knew I had done a documentary about Ralph. And David reached out and talked to me and I set up the contact and set up the interview. And then David said to me, okay, be here at 4:30. And I said, well, what do you need me for? And he said, you don't understand. Ralph Nader is my hero. He's been my hero ever since my dad pointed at the television, said that is the greatest American. And I, I can't do this alone. And so you and I showed up to help him. That's my dog yipping in the background. That's Catherine the Great. So you and I showed up to help him and just be in the room with him. He did a great job. And then afterwards, we all turned to each other and said, boy, this guy knows a lot. I should do this every week. And it took us, it took us a few weeks to get Ralph on board with the idea because Ralph is very busy. He's still doing everything he's doing to this day. At age 91, you would not know that to hear him and to listen to him. And he's still as sharp as ever. And he's a piece of living history because he lived through Nixon, he lived through Vietnam War, he lived through all these other rollbacks of the 80s during the Reagan era. You mentioned the Telecommunications act. Even before that was the Fairness Doctrine in the late 80s that had been repealed, which led to way to, for people like Rush Limbaugh, monologize for hours and hours without any balanced coverage. So, yes, that, that's a little bit of history of how this program started and what we continue to do as Ralph. He's the Iron man. He's Lou Gehrig, he's Cal Ripken. 603 shows so far and still going strong.
- [53:16]
Alan Minsky
No, it's amazing. And of course, it's popular across the country. It's popular across the Pacifica Radio Network where it's syndicated, but it doesn't exist without kpfk. So once again, folks, we're asking you, and we've come to you very, very infrequently with the Ralph Nader Radio hour. Please support KPFK, the home station of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour. $10 a month is our suggested donation. Maybe do it in one block at $120 or just you can spread it out over $10 a month every month. Make it a recurring payment. Basic memberships 25. They're thank you gifts. You can get get a KPFK bag or a T shirt or a cap asking when you call about those kind of thank you gifts, Those are in the 50 to 75 range. Or give more if you can to support the Ralph Nader Radio Hour and kpfk at 8189-8557-3581-8985, kpfk. Or you can go online at kpfk.org and donate there. 818-985-5735. The Ralph Nader radio Hour. And I have to tell you I, I do engage the show every single week. And I think the interviews so many times when the show comes in and I, I post it the way that I post it so the Pacific Radio folks can get around the country. I, I was like right away, I listen to the whole darn thing, Steve, because I'm looking, I'm, I'm looking in what my current work is as a political organizer and activist. I'm looking for as much insight as I can possibly get. And I can tell you there is nothing, there's nothing that outshines the Ralph Nader Radio Hour week in, week out on every subject under the sun that they addressed. I mean, you know, look so much of even, again, if you want to call it like the American left or progressives, there's a real kind of like almost type of blindness as to looking where power really resides in the society. And I think Ralph has always understood that really almost better than anyone. And he, he, he explains how the institutions that are empowered, they're basically getting a free pass, including by so much else in terms of progressive media and media in general. So this is a really, really exemplary radio show and project. So call to Support us at 8189-8557-3581-8985. KPFK. Speak to when you call, you can speak to the person who picks up the phone and talk to them about getting a thank you gift in return. You can get KPFK T shirts, kpfk, you know, a whole bunch of stuff, coffee mugs, etc, they're books that you can pick up. Ask the person who picks up about those as thank you gifts. But most importantly, support the Ralph Nader Radio Hour and its home station, KPFK Radio with your donation at 8189-8557-3581-8985. Kpfk. And let me ask you this. You now work on this show and you're on the show every week. Would you, can you imagine anything more important to remain going in the next year in this crisis that we're in, Steve, and how much insight people will get from the Ralph Nader Radio Hour in this next year?
- [56:09]
Steve Scrovan
Yeah, because no, I cannot because for the reasons I mentioned before is that Ralph has seen it all. And so there's nobody on the scene who has that kind of perspective, who's been doing this for over, you know, close to 70 years now and is still, still sharp and still has his handle on and still, you know, able to predict things and let us know what is going to happen just based on what he knows has happened. So that's the, that's the insight I get from him. And, and what's, what's great about Ralph, too, is he's just relentlessly positive. He is a fighter. He is. He does not accept the status quo, and he's looking for people. We have all kinds of people on the show. We have journalists, we have book authors, political scientists, we have.
- [57:03]
Alan Minsky
Activists.
- [57:03]
Steve Scrovan
We've. We've done a series of shows with activists. A woman in New York and in her district who's doing town halls. We had Marcus Sims, who is taking old fallen trees and turning them to desks for schools. We had John Merriman, who is just taking refuse and mainly old tires and all sorts of garbage out of the ditches where he lived. And that started going nationwide. So we just don't highlight the intellectuals, we highlight the real doers. And that's what Ralph really appreciates. I can't tell you how many times we've had a journalist on the air and Ralph said, okay, this is all great. Now what are you doing about it? And the journalists say, well, I just kind of tell you what the problem is. I'm not. That's not really my bailiwick. And Ralph, in his history, was different. He was the journalist who did that research, but then did something about it. And that's the spirit we need right now in these dark, dark times.
- [58:05]
Alan Minsky
Yeah. No. And of course, the constitutional experts you have explaining the, the transgressions of the Trump administration and I have to say, too, incredible foreign policy analysis, and by the way, geopolitical analysis, the global economy, the trade, the tariffs, everything under the sun Ralph Nader has addressed so brilliantly all the way through to, of course, the horribleness that goes on in our local communities here in Southern California, per ice and everything. And just the absolute destruction of people's rights here in the United States of America. And of course, an understanding of the Supreme Court, too. Just a whole series of brilliant interviews on all of these subjects. And again, the intelligence about the operation of power corporations, the macro economy and how it ties together with the political system and the rising oligarchy. The Silicon Valley interviews have been amazing. Again, unrivaled, in my opinion. Certainly nobody the subset of those that you've done with the understanding it provides for the 21st century. Ralph, Ralph, Ralph Nader is nobody's dinosaur, man. He is up to speed with the moment, just like as anybody could be. And, and by the way, he also has incredible, just off the cuff wisdom that he provides every week, too. So, look, we got to keep this show going so quickly. One final thought. In 30 seconds, why should people donate to the Ralph Nader radio hour at 818-985-5735? Steve Scrobin, people should donate to the.
- [59:24]
Steve Scrovan
Ralph Nader Radio Hour to keep the lights on, to keep us going and to keep the truth coming straight at you.
- [59:32]
Alan Minsky
8189-8557-3581-8985. KPFK donate now with Ralph Nader Radio Hour and KPFK Radio. Thank you so much.
- [59:45]
Chuck Foster
This is John Crumshow with a special Politics or Pedagogy education report, an analysis of education policy and practice that affects our public schools. On kpfk, you hear more than a sound bite. That's education. That's our mission. KPFK now in our fund drive, please make your contribution at 8184.