Ralph Nader Radio Hour — October 26, 2025

Main Theme

This episode centers on the "serious and imminent threat" posed by Donald Trump from a forensic and psychiatric perspective. Dr. Bandy Lee, renowned forensic psychiatrist and editor of The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, returns to discuss her research and activism concerning Trump's psychological fitness for office, the suppression of psychiatric discourse in the U.S., and the broader risks of unchecked executive power. The interview explores the dynamics and dangers of sociopathic leadership, the role of mental health professionals in political crises, and the phenomenon of psychological contagion.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Suppression of Psychiatric Discourse about Trump

• Exclusion by APA: Dr. Bandy Lee recounts her resignation from the American Psychiatric Association (APA) in 2007 over its “Guild rule” (the Goldwater Rule) and increasing ties to the pharmaceutical industry.
  • "They made a decision to simply pull out of any discussion and to misguide the public into believing that anyone who would speak about these issues were being unethical." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 02:31)
• Impact on Congress & Media: The APA’s stance was instrumental in discouraging Congress and progressive media from consulting mental health experts on Trump’s fitness.
  • "The Congress members... consistently told us that they were actually depending on us to educate the public medically so that they could intervene politically." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 04:30)
  • Progressive journalists, including Amy Goodman and Chris Hedges, avoided the topic post-APA intervention. (06:40)
• Goldwater Rule Critique: Labeled a “political compromise… not an ethical guideline,” its enforcement by institutions like Yale led to Dr. Lee's dismissal. (05:15)
• Resulting Blackout: Over 70 major TV appearances canceled; only one aired—followed by the host’s firing. (06:40)

2. Political and Media Fears of Psychiatric Labeling

• Historical Misuse as Tactic: Nader notes the fear of being accused of “Soviet-style” psychiatric oppression of political dissidents (08:17).
  • "Progressives throughout the decades have been very fearful of being tainted with that accusation..." (Ralph Nader, 08:52)
• Dr. Lee’s Response: Psychiatry, when evidence-based, is “just as scientific as the rest of medicine” and misuse should not preclude accurate, ethical critique of dangerous public figures. (08:52, Dr. Bandy Lee)
• Projection in Language: Trump weaponizes psychiatric terms against opponents—accusing them of craziness, wackiness, etc.—as a means of projecting his own issues and deterring legitimate critique. (10:41)

3. Profile of Trump: Sociopathic and Psychopathic Traits

• Nader reads checklist: Outlines antisocial traits: failure to follow laws, deceitfulness, impulsivity, aggression, recklessness, irresponsibility, lack of remorse.
  • "He scored 36 on the Psychopathy Checklist, where 30 is considered the threshold." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 21:53)
  • “Every accusation is a confession…” (Dr. Bandy Lee, 31:27)
• Consequences: Trump’s pathology is linked to concrete dangers—deregulation, damage to agencies, reckless executive actions, and disrespect for constitutional norms. (11:54, 19:15)

4. Trump’s Reaction to Removal from Office

• Predicted Response: Dr. Lee predicts belligerence and potential for violence if Trump were removed, but his reaction also depends on how he is handled—a reason why mental health consultation is critical.
  • "He will react very belligerently, as violently as possible..." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 14:58)
• Congressional Inaction: Many members fear a crisis scenario (Trump refusing to leave office), which paradoxically makes them less willing to act constitutionally. (16:03)

5. Barriers to Congressional and Public Action

• APA’s Ripple Effect: Lawmakers, major media, and even other professionals have retreated from the mental health debate around Trump, stymieing collective action and muting expert voices. (16:56)
• Role of the People: Dr. Lee emphasizes that public outcry and input from other fields (law, academia, corporations) are vital to overcoming this paralysis and intimidation. (18:56)

6. Nuclear Arsenal and Presidential Mental Fitness

• Unique Omission: Every person with nuclear responsibilities is annually evaluated for mental health—except the President.
  • "The Commander in Chief... has no such requirement. And alerting against this glaring and dangerous omission was part of our duty to the public..." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 23:18, also at 24:21)

7. Psychological Contagion and Trump’s Inner Circle

• Contagion Model: Explains how pathology “spreads” from a powerful, impaired leader to followers and even to normally healthy individuals through exposure, fear, and intimidation.
  • Four categories: similar pathology, predisposed, normal but exposed, resisters. (28:08)
  • “With time and pressure, especially isolation, even resisters can succumb… but most can return to baseline after the source is removed." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 29:28)
• Ideology vs. Impairment: Some Trump associates may be ideologically aligned but are amplified by his pathology. (30:13)

8. Need for Psychiatric Analysis—Beyond Policy Disagreements

• Value Added: Psychiatric expertise helps predict future dangers and identify underlying causes, giving the public tools for prevention rather than just reaction.
  • "We get to the source of the problems. Yes, he's acting as a dictator... But why is this occurring?" (Dr. Bandy Lee, 33:35)
• Societal Pathology Noted: Nader extends the concept to social phenomena like the gambling epidemic to illustrate the broader relevance of pathology beyond politics. (37:05)

9. Is Trump Consulting Manipulative Psychiatrists?

• Trump as Innate Manipulator: Rather than being guided by a “bad psychiatrist,” Trump’s cunning is instinctive—a common trait in psychopaths or sociopaths who read and manipulate public emotion.
  • "He has spent a lifetime honing those skills because he doesn't have the real, the actual qualities... that most human beings have." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 39:03)
• Risk Assessment Challenges: Special forensic expertise is required to recognize such manipulation and dangerousness. (41:09)

10. Psychological Immunity of the Electorate

• Voters‘ Double Standard: Many Americans would reject Trump-like behavior in personal contacts but tolerate it from a President, illustrating susceptibility and Trump’s “insight” into cultural weaknesses. (43:57)
  • "...he understood the psychology of many voters who were turned off by the Democratic Party... Mental health professionals need to recognize that and study that." (Ralph Nader, 43:57)
  • "...mental symptoms cannot be diminished as simple debilitation. Some actually advance to the point where the person can become very powerful and very destructive." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 45:18)

11. Contagion versus Fear/Coercion in Political Behavior

• Ambitions and Threats: Not all support within the GOP stems from contagion; fear and ambition, under the threat of violence, also drive compliance.
  • "There have to be three factors... The threats and fear and actual consequences to those who do not capitulate... facilitate the contagion." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 46:39)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• The Psychiatric Gag Order: "We were the number one topic of national conversation... yet the public was told over and over that mental health experts have no place in a mental health discussion in public." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 06:40)
• Projection as Pathology: "Every accusation is a confession... whatever he says of others will quite accurately portray what is happening in him." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 31:27)
• Nuclear Omission: "All persons who have any involvement with nuclear weapons are required to have a yearly thorough mental health evaluation. Except for one. The Commander in Chief..." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 23:18)
• Pathology as Power: "...some actually advance to the point where the person can become very powerful and very destructive." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 45:18)
• Public’s Role: "What surprised me when I did enter the halls of Congress was that Congress members were depending on the people..." (Dr. Bandy Lee, 18:56)
• On Trump’s Cunning: "He knew more about the weakness of our democratic society than all the political scientists put together..." (Ralph Nader, 41:09)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:31 – 04:00: Introduction of Dr. Bandy Lee, her background, and the initial success/support for psychiatric analysis of Trump.
• 04:00 – 05:15: Congressional engagement and suppression by the APA.
• 06:40 – 08:17: Media blackout and cancellation of interviews.
• 08:17 – 11:29: Discussion of fears of psychiatric labeling and projection in political rhetoric.
• 11:54 – 14:58: Nader lists Trump's antisocial/sociopathic characteristics and asks about conceivable reactions to impeachment.
• 16:56 – 19:15: How Congress and the public are neutralized and what could be done.
• 23:05 – 25:31: Unique omission of presidential mental health checks for nuclear command authority.
• 28:08 – 30:41: Psychological contagion and how Trump’s pathology spreads in his administration.
• 31:27 – 33:35: The necessity for psychiatric analysis beyond policy critique.
• 35:45 – 38:14: White supremacy, social pathologies, and their relationship to mental health versus ideology.
• 39:03 – 42:51: Is Trump getting conscious psychiatric advice, or is his manipulation innate?
• 43:57 – 45:18: The American double standard for leaders and voters’ psychological susceptibility.
• 46:10 – 47:12: Distinguishing fear from true psychological contagion among political actors.

Additional Segments

Ralph Nader’s Take on the “No Kings” Rally (49:18)

• "It was an extraordinary organizational achievement... but I think they lost some opportunities." (Ralph Nader, 49:39)
• Suggestions: more concrete demands, fundraising, showing images of officials in rallies, funding ongoing lobbying efforts, and the creative use of costumes and inflatables as protest innovations.

Concluding Resources

• Dr. Bandy Lee’s sites:
  • Website: bandylee.com
  • Substack: bandyxlee.substack.com

Summary Flow & Utility

This episode is a probing exploration of the intersection of mental health, politics, and power. Through Dr. Lee’s clinical expertise and frontline activism, listeners gain insight into why psychiatric expertise was suppressed in the Trump era, what concrete dangers sociopathic power poses, how psychological dynamics facilitate authoritarian contagion, and why understanding personality pathology is crucial for effective political response. The conversation balances clinical analysis with a sharp awareness of political realities, and arms listeners—whether or not they are familiar with the mental health profession—with a deeper understanding of the risks facing American democracy.

For further detail, refer to the full transcript on the [Ralph Nader Radio Hour Substack].