Ralph Nader Radio Hour – September 21, 2025

Main Theme

This episode of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour centers on corporate responsibility and the dismantling of public institutions. The first half features an in-depth conversation with New York Times reporter David Gelles, author of Dirtbag Billionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune and Gave It All Away, examining how Patagonia and its founder have set an unconventional path for ethical business leadership. The second main segment welcomes former IRS Commissioner John Koskinen, who describes the Trump administration’s efforts to dismantle the IRS and the dire consequences for tax enforcement and public service.

Segment 1: David Gelles on Yvon Chouinard and 'Dirtbag Billionaire'

Overview and Introduction

• Guest: David Gelles, NYT reporter, climate team lead, and author.
• Topic: How Yvon Chouinard (Patagonia's founder) built a hugely successful company that prioritizes environmental stewardship, worker well-being, and ethical supply chains over traditional capitalist values.
• Gelles’ book is framed as a good news story – a rare example of a business “done right.”
  • "Can good news from a corporation that has almost defined the far frontiers of proper behavior and social responsibility excite the American people?" – Ralph Nader (03:07)

Chouinard’s Early Life and Motivations ([04:00])

• Chouinard’s upbringing: poverty in New England, moved to California, humble beginnings making climbing gear for personal safety and friends.

• Accidental Businessman:

  "He was not one of these CEOs or entrepreneurs that had some aspiration to create a world beating company... what I think drove him all along was his commitment to quality."
  — David Gelles (04:00)

• Focus on product quality and integrity above expansion and financial growth.

• Saw Patagonia as a role model to show “that capitalism didn’t have to suck so much.”

Patagonia’s Approach to Workers ([06:00])

• Flexible work policies: “Let My People Go Surfing” philosophy—prioritize time in nature; encourage surfing, skiing, and volunteering.
• Pioneering childcare, inspired by Chouinard's wife Melinda (since the 1970s).
• Encouraged activism: support for environmental engagement during work time.
• Paid decently, but did not give employees equity—leading to some discontent, even as the company grew beyond $1 billion in sales.
• Chouinard was not a perfect manager: "He cycled through executives," and management style was "erratic".

Product Integrity and Supply Chain Excellence ([09:30])

• Early awareness of environmental impact: moved from destructive pitons to safer climbing gear.

• Commitment to quality and ethics extends to supply chain:

  "...they send a team of employees out to inspect that factory. Not just for quality...but are the working conditions right? Is the environmental story of that factory good?"
  – David Gelles (11:00)

• Patagonia products: rain shells, ski gear, hiking pants, T-shirts, jackets, hats, fleece, with an emphasis on durability and repairability.

• Unconventional marketing:

  "This was 2015 and the company took out a full page ad in the New York Times that just said, 'Don't buy this jacket.'"
  – David Gelles (13:35)

• Acknowledges the core paradox: being an environmentalist running a large clothing company.

Relentless Self-Examination and Ethical Innovation ([16:24])

• Conversion to organic cotton: a huge, risky internal shift—developed new supply chains, overcame resistance.
• Stopped using harmful anti-odor chemicals; adopted safer, even quirky alternatives (crushed crab shells).
• Gelles’ takeaway:

  "...this willingness to examine their own imperfections and use their frustration with their own failings as inspiration to make it better..."
  — David Gelles (17:30)

Management Style & Succession ([18:31])

• Chouinard: a “D manager”—focused on outcomes, but hands-off; management by "absence" (MBA – Management By Absence).
• Maintained Patagonia as a private company, refusing to sell out for profits; intense aversion to billionaire status.

The 2022 Structural Transformation ([19:54])

• Chouinard family donated 100% of Patagonia equity:
  • 2% (voting shares) to a California “Purpose Trust” (with a $17.5m tax cost).
  • 98% (non-voting shares) to a 501(c)(4) nonprofit—the Holdfast Collective—enabling political engagement but with no massive tax break for the Chouinards.
• All profits not reinvested in Patagonia are distributed for conservation and activism.

  "...this complicated structure achieved a bunch of critical goals...preserved Patagonia as an ongoing concern...rid Chouinard of his own fortune..."
  – David Gelles (23:50)

Replicability of the Model ([24:53])

• Chouinard’s approach is idiosyncratic—"no one can replicate Chouinard's life."
• However: “That work of self-interrogation, that commitment to trying to understand where a company might be falling short...that's so much of what paved the way for this company to be remarkable.” (24:53)

Patagonia’s Activism & Legacy ([26:21])

• Ongoing public lands lawsuits and advocacy.
• Worn Wear program: repairing products for free, reducing consumer waste (27:23).
• Chouinard’s reclusive lifestyle; focus on fishing, nature, family privacy (27:50).
• The term “dirtbag”—not an insult, but a badge of honor among outdoor enthusiasts:

  "A dirtbag is someone in the climbing community...so unenamored with material possessions that they are content to sleep in the dirt."
  — David Gelles (28:59)

Counterpoint to Corporate Malfeasance ([29:55])

• Contrasts Patagonia (and its name origin) with Amazon.
• In “grim, tumultuous times,” offers a much-needed alternative vision for business:

  "These sort of counterpoints, these examples that show it doesn't have to suck so bad, I think are ones that really have the opportunity to break through."
  – David Gelles (31:44)

Compare and Contrast: Jack Welch vs. Yvon Chouinard ([32:05])

• Chouinard represents the antithesis of “Jack Welch capitalism.”
• Welch’s legacy: cut corners, focus on short-term shareholder value—destroyed GE’s long-term resilience.
• Patagonia: focus on values, consistent quality over decades, enduring success (33:25).

Patagonia vs. Silicon Valley 'Effective Altruism' ([34:16])

• Chouinard's giving is personal, grassroots, and non-quantitative—prioritizes small, activist-led grants over big, centralized projects.
• Example grants: funded campaigns against destructive mines and conservation purchases in the U.S.

  "So to Chouinard, that's effective altruism, whatever else that Silicon Valley might be thinking about these days."
  – David Gelles (36:20)

Segment 2: John Koskinen on the Dismantling of the IRS

Overview and Introduction ([38:18])

• Guest: John Koskinen, IRS Commissioner (2013–2017)
• Topic: Trump administration’s mass layoffs and budget cuts at the IRS—rooted in Project 2025—and their consequences for tax enforcement and public trust.

Consequences of IRS Undermining ([39:56])

• Bipartisan concern among former IRS commissioners:

  "...there's not a Democratic or Republican way to administer the tax code. It's a management challenge."
  – John Koskinen (39:56)

• Cutting 25,000+ experienced IRS employees is a direct blow to federal revenue collection ($5 trillion/year).

• Future tax filing seasons risk chaos; diminished ability to collect taxes from the rich and corporations.

Impact on Tax Enforcement ([42:13])

• Republican Congress slashed $40B from the IRS's promised $80B budget for modernization and enforcement under the Inflation Reduction Act.
• Without skilled auditors, large/complex returns will increasingly go unaudited—widening the $500B+ annual tax gap.

How Corporations and Rich Individuals Avoid Tax ([44:11])

• Describes tactics: accelerated depreciation, deductions, capital gains treatment for “carried interest,” and other code loopholes.
• The tax code is full of incentives that corporations lobby to keep—a constant, rarely removed.

Loss of Public Service Talent ([45:59])

• IRS has highly skilled professionals (often from law/accounting), sacrificing higher private-sector pay for public service.
• Mass resignations: 17,000 accepted administrative leave; loss of expertise critical to enforcement.

Confidentiality of Taxpayer Data ([46:54])

• IRS secrecy laws are strict; sharing taxpayers’ information with outside agencies is a criminal offense.
• IRS resists pressure from Trump administration, Homeland Security, even Elon Musk’s “Doge” venture to release taxpayer information.

  "IRS employees have refused to give them the data..."
  – John Koskinen (49:42)

Demoralizing the Public Service ([50:36])

• Dismissals without warning, unstable job environment—leads to trauma, discourages talented people from entering/staying in public service.

  "...it'll be harder for someone like me, who's a fierce advocate for public servants, to go into a high school auditorium...and say, 'consider public service as your career.'"
  – Daniel Wurfro via Ralph Nader quoting (50:36)

• The chilling effect will last years; diminishes long-term institutional expertise.

Congressional Responsibility & Tax Reform ([53:52])

• Koskinen implores Congress to fund the IRS adequately, regardless of party.
• Outlines vision for simpler, fairer tax code—potential for a progressive flat tax, reducing loopholes and audit complexity.

The Commissioners' Current Action ([55:53])

• Group of ex-IRS commissioners is “being as visible as possible”—publishing, testifying, warning the public and Congress.
• Urges other former agency heads nationwide to stand together publicly when public institutions are endangered.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Gelles on Patagonia’s success paradox:

  “There’s a paradox…Chouinard is an environmentalist who wants to reduce the impact of mankind on planet Earth, and yet he runs a big, complicated clothing company that is taking a toll on the environment that he’s trying to protect.” (15:10)

• On Chouinard’s model:

  "No one can replicate Chouinard's life. And no company can snap its fingers and suddenly become Patagonia. But every company can do more of that self interrogation and focus on quality." — David Gelles (24:53)

• On IRS layoffs:

  “When you hamstring [the IRS] by cutting its employees, pushing out many senior leaders ... what you do ... is make it very difficult ... to collect taxes owed.” — John Koskinen (39:56)

• On public service morale:

  “These are very skilled people who, in effect, have given up the opportunity to make two or three times more money ... because they believe in public service.” — John Koskinen (46:04)

• Chouinard on management:

  “He liked to say he had an MBA: not a Master's of Business Administration, but what he called, ‘management by absence.’” — David Gelles (19:00)

Key Timestamps

• 04:00 – What drove Chouinard? Accidental businessman, focus on values
• 06:21 – Worker policies, no equity, management imperfections
• 09:30 – Product innovation, ethical supply chain enforcement
• 13:35 – 'Don’t Buy This Jacket' ad; central paradox
• 16:24 – Switch to organic cotton, anti-odor chemicals
• 19:54 – Patagonia’s 2022 ownership restructure (“purpose trust” and 501c4)
• 24:53 – Replicability (or not) of the Patagonia model
• 32:05 – Compare/contrast with Jack Welch and GE
• 34:16 – Patagonia’s giving vs. Silicon Valley effective altruism
• 39:56 – IRS under attack: layoffs, enforcement decline
• 44:11 – How the rich and corporations avoid tax
• 46:54 – Confidentiality of taxpayer data, political interference
• 50:36 – Dire impact of layoffs on public service morale
• 53:52 – What Congress should do: fund IRS, tax code reform

Tone and Takeaways

The tone is rigorous, candid, and engages with both the optimism of Patagonia’s story and the alarm over government deconstruction. The hosts and guests share a sense of urgency around defending integrity—whether in private or public institutions—while offering practical, sometimes sobering insights into what it takes to enact lasting change.

For listeners:

• Patagonia demonstrates that ethical capitalism is possible, but rare.
• Government institutions, especially the IRS, are being actively undermined—threatening the funding and stability of essential public services.
• Both private and public sectors urgently need transparency, self-examination, and long-term thinking, not just in people, but in the structures they build and leave behind.

For further reading:

• Dirtbag Billionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune and Gave It All Away by David Gelles
• Ralph Nader’s The Rebellious CEO
• Op-eds and Congressional testimony by John Koskinen

End of summary.