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Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
A Life Transformed: Rich Roll on Breaking Free from Victimhood, Radical Gratitude & Life-Changing Lessons | Part 2
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- [00:00]
Rich Roll
Look, I think it's good to have a vision for who you want to become and to believe in the possibility of that occurring and then to follow that up with work. What are the things you can control that are going to move you towards that? That's all fine. I don't like it when it's deployed as an excuse to not do the work. There's an entitlement to that, I think, like, oh, if I just imagine it and believe in it, it will occur. I don't think it works that way. But I think the. The more important piece for me is when we hold onto something too tightly, we're often robbing ourselves of the greater miracle. And so I found that, like, everything that I've accomplished, it all looks like it makes sense when you look in the rearview mirror. But when I was in it and doing it, I had no sense of where it was leading me. And I think if I had said to myself, here's what I want this to be, or I kind of planned it, or whiteboarded or just envisioned some future version of myself and, like, rigorously, like, held onto that, like, gripped it tightly, I wouldn't have been able to be as nimble in the moment and to be able to kind of check my gut and make decisions in the present that I think have led me in a much better direction than I could have imagined for myself.
- [01:28]
Michael Chernow
I'm Michael Chernow, and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast. Our habits will make us or break us. It's just that simple. I've lived on both sides of the tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing some of the most inspiring, motivating, and high performing humans I've encountered to share their daily habits, routines, and rituals that help them stay on top of their game and ultimately happy. So sit back, relax, and pay attention, because what you hear over the next 30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life.
- [02:10]
Let's go. What up, y'all? Welcome back to the Creatures of Habit podcast. Today we're not just gonna cover in 30 to 45 minutes habits, rituals, and routines of awesome human beings that have inspired me. We're gonna spend a little bit more time. Rich, welcome.
- [02:31]
Rich Roll
Great to be here, man. I love the intro.
- [02:34]
Michael Chernow
Something that you said, I think you said a bunch of times, but I love it.
- [02:38]
Rich Roll
The phoenix can't rise until it burns first.
- [02:41]
Michael Chernow
So do you think that that play that. That's basically kind of this.
- [02:45]
Rich Roll
This story I think so. I think, you know, there are certain archetypes that play out, you know, over the history of humankind, whether it's the hero's journey or some kind of myths about human behavior that seem to persist. One that is indelible is this idea that you have to be brought to your knees in order to be prepared for what's next. The phoenix has to burn. Alexi Pappas, who's a friend and a podcast guest that we now work with on our network, she said this really great thing when she came on my show, which is when the caterpillar is in the cocoon, we think that it's just becoming a butterfly and that it emerges as this butterfly, but it actually has to dissolve into this goo first. Like, it completely liquefies. Yeah, liquefies completely. Before it reassembles, which is a different version of the same story, you have to be annihilated as a rite of passage in order to be kind of worthy of the hero's journey that awaits. And it seems to go part and parcel with that. Right. And I think the world, the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, gives you what you can handle. And so my message for people who are going through a hard time is always to remind them that, like, to honor it. You know, like this. This could be the beginning of something you can't imagine. Like, you're going through your version of the glob or your, you know, your annihilation or your burning before you can rise, because you need to be prepared. There's a maturation, I think, that you. That is required in order to, you know, grow into the person that you have the potential to become. So there's something special about hard times. And it's easy to say to somebody when they're in it and they don't want to hear it, you know, But I think it's always important to hammer that message a little bit. Like, this could be a sacred moment for you. Like, what are you meant to be learning right now? Not to say like, this is your fault or not your fault or anything like that, but there's always a message. And if you can tune into what that is and say, I'm not a victim here, but actually, maybe this is the beginning of something altogether new and exciting. It's a reframe, I think, that allows you to walk forward through whatever the minefield is in your life at that moment with a little bit more grace and kind of ease and sense of self.
- [05:36]
Michael Chernow
Do you think you do that?
- [05:38]
Rich Roll
No. No, no.
- [05:41]
Michael Chernow
Do you?
- [05:42]
Rich Roll
But I will say. I will say this. So, yeah, I've gone through some rough shit for many years after Finding Ultra came out, which everyone thought was a New York Times bestseller and, like, set me up for some kind of, like, stratospheric success. That was not the case. Like, I had decided to not renew my bar membership when that book came out. And I was like, I'm ready. Come at me like, I wrote this book. I'm gonna start this. I didn't know what it was gonna look like. I didn't know what I would. There was no blueprint for, like, how do you, like, now provide for your family just because you wrote a book? Like, there was no. I didn't know what the equation was, but I did have a faith and a trust that something would happen, and I was gonna be able to kind of put some pieces together and create something that would be far more meaningful to me than, like, continuing to practice law. But the phone didn't ring. You know, like, it just didn't ring. I could not get a break. I couldn't make any money. I was, you know, really up against it. And this went on for years. Dude, we had cars repossessed. I've told this story before, but I didn't have the 80 bucks to pay for our garbage bins to get picked up. So they took them away. So we didn't have garbage. We had to, like, put our garbage in our, like, minivan, and I would have to drive and throw them in a dumpster behind a grocery store or something like that. Like, it was. It was. And we couldn't pay our mortgage. Like, it was rough, and it was rough for a long time. But I did have this sense, and this is a credit to my wife, who is someone of profound faith and showed up with a level of support that was absolutely superhuman through this phase, because I was ready to retreat and just go get a job. And she's like, no. Like, this is. This is our sacred moment. This is our initiation. This is our. Our. You know, we're burning, you know, right now because we're being prepared for something. And I'm like, no fucking way.
- [07:48]
Michael Chernow
You know, dude, the craziest thing is she was right.
- [07:51]
Rich Roll
She was right. She was right. Without her, this whole thing implodes. And I'm not sitting here right now. And that is 100% fact. She had strength that I didn't have, and she had the capacity to cast her gaze in the future. And it was a scenario in which, you know, I think it would have exploded most marriages, but it brought us really close together. And she would say, like, you know, it's just stuff like if it goes away, it's okay. We're together. And this is relevant to something you just said a minute ago. It's not. It's not an assault on your identity. Like something more is going on. Because as a man, like, I'm supposed to be provide, you know, like, it was very emasculating. And you mentioned earlier you got some feedback you didn't like, and you, it's, you know, it triggers you and you want to react, you want to defend yourself. But I think one thing I've learned that's been super helpful is to not identify with things that are happening to you. Like, these are things that are happening. They're not an indictment on who you are as a human being necessarily. But we so deeply personalize these things. And whether it's negative feedback or circumstances outside of your control, when negative feedback gets hurled at you, you're interpreting that as an indictment of who you are, not maybe just feedback on your behavior. Right. And that makes it so triggering. But if you can say, this is not about my identity, these are just things. So I remember, like, I'll never forget this. I had this orange Land Rover Discovery that I loved. Such a fucking cool truck. And I couldn't pay that $250 a month there was for the lease. So eventually the repo man shows up at the door. I knew he was coming. I was like, on the other side of the house. And Julie meets him. It's dark out already. She meets him in the driveway. She's like, hi, what's your name? She goes, you're here for the truck, right? Yeah. She goes, do you want to come in? Can I make you some tea? What do you need? Do you use the bathroom? Just treated him with kindness. And he was like, what the fuck is going on? He's so used to people vibing him, right? She's like, here's the keys. Here you go. Like, you know, and. And he took the truck away, and that was that. And what I learned from that is that equanimity is a superpower. So when you're in the eye of the storm, or shit's getting hurled in your direction, or life feels completely out of control, or you've just reached the end of your capacity to deal with yet another obstacle, your capacity or your facility to be present, to be non reactive and to maintain neutrality is honestly like, it is a superpower. And so I did My best to try to practice it throughout this whole process. And that, I think is what saved us, kept us calm and kind of on track. Not on track, but just like, okay, like, I'm not going to die. You know, like, another day, another day, another day. And then eventually, you know, things started to shift and it was many years, many years to kind of put this whole thing together. And you know, even. Even the pocket, I did the podcast for years without making any money on it. I never thought it would be like an income generator. So it was just always like leading from the heart, following the heart, honoring your curiosity, and just trying to do the right next thing in front of you to do that you have any control over.
- [11:39]
Michael Chernow
I want to ask you about your morning routine because I know that you say and have, you know, made it very clear to your audience that micro stacked, micro decisions on a day to day basis done consistently are ultimately gone to what, dictate where you stand. And I, and I agree with you there. I mean, I think that that's been the foundation, the bedrock to not every day being awesome, but more days being awesome than not for me. Do you have a morning routine?
- [12:10]
Rich Roll
I do. It tends to be fluid because there's so many pieces that I would like to do every single morning. And the reality is I don't always have the time to do all of them. So part of the morning routine for me is not beating myself up if I don't do all of that. You know, it's like I want to meditate, I want to do my morning pages, I want to work out, I want to do sauna, I want to do cold plunge, I want to, you know, I want, like, it's a four hour deal. You know what I mean? Sometimes I have four hours. And that is the luxury of kind of the vocation that I'm in where I get to kind of set my own schedule. But more often than not, I don't. And so I have to make choices when I can't do all of those things. What are the things that are most important? And those things are meditation, morning pages, or journaling and working out. Those are the non negotiables.
- [13:05]
Michael Chernow
Do you have a specific style of meditation that you like to do?
- [13:09]
Rich Roll
I dabble in lots of different ones. I mean, essentially it's just a very simple, pay attention to the breath. But I like a lot of the apps. I've been spending a lot of time in the waking up, apparently. Um, and I've been enjoying like being guided by Sam. So that's I used that for a while. Yeah, that's the one I've been going to recently. And I generally do that for 20 minutes, but sometimes it's 10. And if a day goes by and I, you know, it's like, if you get two, I think streaks are great and they, they create momentum. And I think momentum is another spiritual superpower that's to be respected and revered and, you know, kind of something that you're always trying to, you know, create. But sometimes momentum gets interrupted. And my tendency is to beat myself up and go into a shame spiral over things that really aren't that big of a deal. So. So part of my morning routine is also like practicing a little bit of self love and self kindness, which. That's new.
- [14:09]
Michael Chernow
And how are you doing that?
- [14:10]
Rich Roll
I'll do loving kindness meditation. That's like the main way that I try to try to connect with that. And is there a. I'm not my own best friend.
- [14:19]
Michael Chernow
I'm with.
- [14:20]
Rich Roll
I can tell you that.
- [14:21]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, I'm with you. I hear that. Yeah, I'm. I. I mean, I think negative self talk is something that I've gotten more conscious of. I am not pro by any stretch and not having it. I have it. And sometimes doing it out loud, like, I'll find myself being aware of the fact that I'm having this really shitty conversation with myself. And then I'm like, michael, dude, don't have that conversation with yourself. And then a minute later I'm like, in the closet. And I'm like, you're such a fucking idiot. You know, And I'm like, dude, you just said that out loud. You just, you just, you literally found yourself, you had the self awareness in the moment to acknowledge the fact that you were having this conversation that no one should have with anyone with yourself. So you paused it and you said, don't have that combo. And then a minute later, you not only had the conversation, it kicked up again, but you said it out loud like people could have heard it. You know, it's a real thing. Like, do you deal with that? Do you deal?
- [15:23]
Rich Roll
Yo? Yeah, big time. Big time. I think it's more common than maybe we realize. It's certainly common in the recovery community. You know, addicts are pretty good at beating themselves up. And we've all done so much crazy bullshit in our past. It's really hard to transcend that, you know, especially when a lot of that addict behavior was sort of like intentionally or unconsciously, like, self destructive. Like self destructive on purpose. And then how do you kind of make amends to yourself for that behavior. It's. It's a. That's a tall mountain to climb. I've gotten better at not saying those things out loud. But, you know, there's a loop that runs pretty consistently inside the brain, you know. And then you meet people who don't have that at all, and you're like.
- [16:09]
Michael Chernow
Wow, do you think that's real? Like, how many people have you met that have actually said, well, I think.
- [16:15]
Rich Roll
There'S people who have developed a practice that allows them to inhabit that space. Like, do you know Mike Posner? Yeah, he's really good at that. But I think he's worked really hard to be somebody who can practice loving kindness for himself.
- [16:32]
Michael Chernow
I think that I'm going to run with your momentum thing. I think that that's something that I gotta. Specifically with my meditation practice. Because when you said momentum, like, I had a vision of me sitting in my sauna meditating for like, I had meditated for like 300 something days straight. And I'm not meditating right now. And I could feel it. There's no doubt. Like, I could absolutely 100% feel it.
- [16:56]
Rich Roll
It's the easiest thing to dismiss, though, when you're kind of making that list in the morning of what you're gonna do and not do. I don't fucking need to do that. So it's hard. And momentum. Momentum. What is momentum? Well, momentum is a law of physics. It's the product of mass and velocity. So you can kind of deconstruct it that way. If you think of micro actions, like every little contrary action that you take, that moves you a little closer to the person you're trying to become adds mass to that momentum equation. And the shorter the interval of time in between those contrary actions increases velocity. So those two things in tandem help to produce this thing, momentum. So that's the mathematical equation for it. But I think it's much more profound than that. I think there is a sort of spiritual energy in a Luke Skywalker force sort of sense in that we all know that experience of how easy it is to get up and go to the gym when you've gone to the gym every single day for 89 days in a row. And then life intervenes. You have some other obligation. You don't make it to the gym on day 90, so your momentum is interrupted. And it's just a little bit easier to not go on day 91, or maybe you go on day 92, but then you skip another day. Like, rebuilding that. Like, it's really hard to get back to that place where momentum produces a certain kind of ease. And I think when you have momentum, it's really helpful to me to go, this is the force. Like, it must be revered, it must be respected. And should circumstances arise in which it does get interrupted, like, it's again, back to sobriety. Like, if you relapse, like, the most important thing, the thing isn't the relapse. It's like, did you go right back or are you going to stay out? Right what I mean. And there's something kind of transcendent about that that I think is worthy of, like, a little more reverence than we give it.
- [19:06]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. I mean, even when you just think about, like, you know, if you're lying on your back and you just try to stand up, you know, like, just stand up from a lying position, it's very difficult. Like, almost, you know, very hard. Like, it's very hard to just get your. Get your back up. But if you, like, do a little rock back and get some momentum, boom, you can stand up. And I think that kind of sums it up. Right. The momentum is almost necessary in a trajectory towards success.
- [19:41]
Rich Roll
Yes. In the rocking back and forth. It's like there's a lever that allows you to do something you ordinarily couldn't do.
- [19:52]
Michael Chernow
What do you think about manifestation? Because I have my own kind of thoughts about it. I'm curious about yours.
- [20:01]
Rich Roll
The idea of, like, here's my vision for what I want, and then I'm just going to inhabit, like, a spiritual mental state and it will come to be. I guess I'm of two minds on that. I think it's.
- [20:15]
Michael Chernow
Do you use it?
- [20:17]
Rich Roll
No, not really. I don't really set goals either. Like, I honestly try to be present. And I found. Look, I think it's good to have a vision for who you want to become and to believe in the possibility of that occurring. And then to follow that up with work. What are the things you can control that are going to move you towards that? That's all fine. I don't like it when it's deployed as an excuse to not do the work. There's an entitlement to that, I think, like, oh, if I just imagine it and believe in it, it will occur. I don't think it works that way. But I think the more important piece for me is when we hold on to something too tightly, we're often robbing ourselves of the greater miracle. And so I found that, like, everything that I've accomplished, it all looks like it makes sense when you look in the rearview mirror, but when I was in it and doing it, I had no sense of where it was leading me. And I think if I had said to myself, here's what I want this to be, or I kind of planned it, or whiteboarded it, or just envisioned some future version of myself and, like, rigorously, like, held onto that, like, gripped it tightly, I wouldn't have been able to be as nimble in the moment and. And to be able to kind of check my gut and make decisions in the present that I think have led me in a much better direction than I could have imagined for myself.
- [21:51]
Michael Chernow
When I hear that, I think about something that's going on with work with me. Where there's two kinds of thinkers in a work setting or in an executive setting, right? There's typically the marketing creative thinker, and then there's a logistical, analytical, sort of operationally focused finger, right? This is the plan. This is the course of action. This is what it says on paper. This is how it's done. And then there's so many different ways to get to 5, 1 plus 4, 3 plus 2, 6 minus whatever. There's so many ways to get there. We could try so many different things. And I think when you are, like, strictly following a plan, you leave all of the opportunity for, like, brainstorm and discovery and lifting up rocks to be, like, an option or even something to consider on the journey. And there's like, these people can't. They don't like you. And I. I think it's no surprise. I mean, you know, we have a lot of things in common that, like, this way, strict. The plan is like, like, like, I'm like. I'm like, I can't. I feel myself. I'm like, rip my fucking shirt off. You know what I mean? Like, no, like, there, yes, I see it. But, like, there's so many things that you could try, you know, and. And I think having that person in the room with these people, make them think, make them, give them things to chew on, because otherwise it's just so.
- [23:24]
Rich Roll
Well, it's the tension between these two things. The answers to all of these questions are like Zen Cohen's, because of course, if you're running a business, you need to know where you're going in order to create a plan to get there. Of course you need that, but you also need vision, and you also need the ability to think outside the box and come to the table with a creative idea. And I think the tension between those two things, you need people who are very operational and think in that linear way. You can't run a business without that, right?
- [23:59]
Michael Chernow
Because these people all get.
- [23:59]
Rich Roll
But the greatest businesses are the ones that have the vision and the creativity and the capacity to see something that doesn't yet exist. And so those two things have to meet somewhere. And I think it's true. In any kind of creative pursuit. I mean, the movie business, you have dreamers and creative people. But a movie doesn't get made unless it's. Unless there's some financial prudence to it, right? Like those two things. And those people argue with each other and they fight and somehow they find a compromise and suddenly there's a. There's a movie in the movie theater. You know what I mean? But you don't get one without the.
- [24:41]
Michael Chernow
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- [26:06]
Back to the pod. What's your vice today?
- [26:08]
Rich Roll
Workaholism. It's not a new vice. I can still, you know, run away and hide and work. I can still get caught up in my ego. You know, it's like, oh, somebody recognized Me on the street or, you know, like, it's all that kind of bullshit takes up a little more resonance in my mind than I would care to admit. So that's not. That's not great. But I've gotten a lot better. You mentioned all these happiness experts that I've had on the podcast. It's like, you know, at this point, you know, I just turned 58, and I'm entering a different stage of life, you know, and I'm starting to think way more than I ever have. Like, what do I want the next 10 years to look like? Like, how much is enough? And. And. And like, what do I actually need? Like, what I do is what I do now. Like, I'm not on some crazy growth trajectory. Like, I'm very fulfilled in what I do. And. And I really don't need for anything, and I don't need what I do to be anything more than it is. Like, I'm not doing all of this because I'm trying to get. Like, I'm like, if this is all that, if I don't wake up tomorrow morning, like, well done, dude. Like, I'm cool. Like, I gave it a good go. And I feel pretty good about the decisions that I've made and the way I've lived my life. But there are some missing pieces. You know, I think that you can be great in different ways, you know, in multiple ways in your life, but it's hard to be great at them all at the same time. And if you're so preoccupied with being great at work, you're probably not great in these other areas of life that are important to you. And so I'm really in a phase of reinvesting in the intimacy of my marriage. My youngest is 17. She's in boarding school. My 20 year old is in college. The two older boys are 29 and 28. They still live at home, but they're like grownups. The point being, like, for the first time, you know, over the last year, for the first time in, like 25 years, like, I don't have to pick anyone up. I don't have to take anyone. Like, I don't have to worry. Like, everyone is. It's not a complete empty nest situation, but there's a lot more freedom. And with that, as you know, I've been with my wife for 25 years. There is that thing of like, wait, who are you? Like, are we. Like, where are we at? You know, because life becomes very logistical and, you know, our lives are complicated and busy and very full and that's all wonderful, but it does come at a cost of, you know, the intimacy that you had in the early phases of your relationship. So we're, you know, in this new phase of commitment to each other to really explore that and deepen it. And so that's become a real priority of mine. And it's a lot of work and it's not easy because you want to just be like, we've been together so long. Like, I don't want to work on this anymore. Like, you know, now I want to have fun or whatever. But it's. It's really. It's paying dividends. It's uncomfortable. So that has been a good antidote for the workaholism, I think. And, you know, we're. I'm a work in progress. Dude Wipes Baby team start a podcast called Character Defects, like go for hours.
- [29:37]
Michael Chernow
I. I mean, I have also been with my wife for a long time. Yeah, I met her eight months after sobriety. So we're coming up, basically. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so really the only.
- [29:50]
Rich Roll
It's the only relationship I've had in sobriety.
- [29:52]
Michael Chernow
Me too.
- [29:53]
Rich Roll
Yeah.
- [29:53]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. And so I can totally relate to that sort of. I think it's. I think it's common to feel that sort of intimacy blockage a little bit in these long term relationships where, you know, unless you actually are intentional about it and, you know, you could. It could not change. Right. And, you know, I've also kind of reinvested there over the last year or so where I. Something that I do, which I find to be so simple. But whenever I'm with my wife, specifically when we're alone, I always cue myself to touch her. We're sitting on the couch, I put my hand on her leg. We're walking down the street, I hold her hand like, I'm always like, this is. You could just sit next to your wife or you could touch her.
- [30:49]
Rich Roll
It's back to micro actions.
- [30:51]
Michael Chernow
Totally.
- [30:52]
Rich Roll
And not to, you know, once again go back to sobriety. But it is, you know, it is the ultimate kind of text from which all of the most important life lessons that I've lear that have been most valuable to me that I was introduced to. And one of them is, and you know, this, I'm certain, is this idea that nothing is static. We believe our lives are static. You know, we are who we are. Tomorrow is going to be like today. Our relationships are the way that they are. You are who you are. You're not going to change. I'm not going to change. And in that, in that sense, once you get sober, you're like, I'm sober, you know, like I'm a sober dude, right? Not realizing that this is a fluid dynamic. And every single action that you take, every thought you entertain, every decision you make is either moving you towards a drink or away from a drink without exception. Now take that idea and apply it to anything else in your life, to your marriage. Every action you take, every decision you make, every behavior you indulge, every thought you entertain is either moving you towards more intimacy in your marriage or away from it. And this is a template you can lay over, like every kind of relationship dynamic in your life and it brings you back to the present. What is the next right action that's going to move me towards my wife, away from a drink, towards the more authentic, self actualized version of who I am, towards the career, of my aspirations, or the healthier, fitter version of who I am.
- [32:48]
Michael Chernow
Do you, I want to get a few more little habits and tips out of you. Do you have anything that you do consistently kind of throughout your day to help bring you back? Like anything that you can recall or anything that you can point to as a catalyst to potentially just coming back to presence throughout your day?
- [33:13]
Rich Roll
I don't know that I have. I mean, there are things that I do, I can't say I do them with great consistency. Like, basically like just a, you know, a quick couple breaths to like reset the brain. Getting up every half an hour from my chair to go outside or walk around to refresh the brain. I need to do that, you know, staying hydrated. I think, I think my dilemma is, is there's a lot of things getting thrown at me all the time and that makes me very anxious. You know, I'm somebody who just likes to do one thing and like take care of it. And when there' a lot of different demands being placed on me in a compressed period of time, that's like my freakout mode. And so the practice is just to identify what is the most important thing. And that's generally the thing I'm avoiding the most. And to do that first or like move towards that thing. Because once you take care of that, everything else kind of then becomes less anxiety producing.
- [34:18]
Michael Chernow
How do you feel about the word.
- [34:19]
Rich Roll
No on the receiving end of it or on the perpetration end of it?
- [34:23]
Michael Chernow
I mean, perpetration has become a super tool for me. But just in general, how does that word make you feel?
- [34:29]
Rich Roll
I'm actively trying to hone my ability to say no. I am a devoted people pleaser and I thought that that made me like a good human being or a good person. It took me a long time to realize that that is a function of insecurity and low self esteem. And it's very uncomfortable for me to say no to people. And I'm an avoidant also. So when somebody asks me for something and I don't feel like saying yes, I will catch myself just ignoring it rather than confronting it with the no. So I'm trying to get a lot better at just being direct with that as a way of honoring myself and also protecting my time. Right now my time is very precious to me and there's an urgency in my need to protect it, which means not just saying no to stuff you don't want to do, but saying no to stuff you do want to do. You know my friend Rob, do you know Robin Arzon is peloton instructor here in New York? Oh, Robin Runner. She has a great thing, she says you gotta use your nose to protect your yeses. So get clear on what your yeses are. And everything else is a no. And that's very difficult to practice for me. And I think one, one not often discussed byproduct of success is twofold. One, suddenly every incoming message and text is somebody who wants something from you. It could be friends, it could be people you don't know. And they're all small asks and they're all completely reasonable and they're all requests that I myself would make, but the volume of them becomes disorienting. And that's also very anxiety producing for me. And so learning how to like navigate that with grace is something I'm trying to get better at and learn because it's draining also. It like drains my life force. And then the other side of that is that you start getting invited or asked to do things that are like, amazing. You get invited to cool places to do things with cool people in fancy locations. And the more successful you become, the more enticing and exciting those opportunities become as well. And saying no to those things is hard too. But you have to remember, like, what is it? What is it that I'm doing and is this moving me towards that or is this a distraction from that? And sometimes it's cool to say yes and to go do that thing and to like celebrate all the work that you did to get you to a point where you have such an incredible opportunity. Like you have to live your life right? So it's not about, about like, you know, being some kind of, you know, reclusive. You know, I don't know what the. I can't think of the right word to capture it. I wanted to say like stoic, but that's the wrong word. Like ascetic maybe. You know, like, I believe in enjoying, you know, your success and that's a way of practicing self love also. But being clear on when you're using it to run away from something or to distract yourself and when it really is the thing to say yes to.
- [38:18]
Michael Chernow
I battle with that. Saying yes to specifically things like, I am a self proclaimed people pleaser as well. Struggle, struggle to say no. Have incorporated no a lot and have felt such freedom from that. Like, truly, like, there's nothing better than looking at my calendar. And I have my calendar blocked out in sections throughout the day where there's just moments in time where it's just like no meetings, period. Zero. You cannot do it. It is not. My assistant cannot schedule in there unless it's a serious emergency. And seeing a few hours on the, on the front side and the backside of that empty is arguably one of the greatest feelings in my life. Like, you know, we live a day at a time, right? Like when I get to wake up and, you know, I get my shit done and then I look at my calendar, I'm like, oh my gosh, I got freedom today. It's like incredible.
- [39:22]
Rich Roll
You know, that's real wealth, freedom, you.
- [39:26]
Michael Chernow
Know, man, dude, we covered so much. Really, this was super fun. I want to just ask you about your sleep and just a sleep evening routine before we wrap her up.
- [39:39]
Rich Roll
Yeah, I was on the sleep bandwagon early before, you know, eight sleep and whoop and all that kind of stuff. I really need my eight hours. The difference and how I'm able to function in the day is such a function of how well I slept. As I get older, with age comes, you know, comes this thing where sleep becomes much more difficult and elusive. That's been my experience. Like, I have to be very intentional. And if I'm not, like, I don't sleep well. So I go to some pretty great lengths to ensure my sleep, not the least of which is for like, I think it's probably been seven years at this point. When I'm at home, I sleep outside in a tent. Did you know that?
- [40:31]
Michael Chernow
Wow. I had no idea.
- [40:33]
Rich Roll
Yeah. Every night I sleep outdoors. Every single night.
- [40:37]
Michael Chernow
Wow.
- [40:38]
Rich Roll
Yeah. And I have been for a long time.
- [40:41]
Michael Chernow
Wow. Do you have it all set up, like, comfortable?
- [40:44]
Rich Roll
Well, now I do. I mean, it started with. It started because many years Ago, my wife and I were kind of at each other's throats because I like the room really cold. She likes it hot. I think this is a common thing, right? If there was a live audience here, everyone would be laughing. And so I'm always on top of the sheets, sweating. She's under all the covers, freezing, and neither of us are happy.
- [41:10]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [41:11]
Rich Roll
You know, and we're arguing about it. We have a flat roof. Like, our master bedroom is upstairs. And then you can kind of go outside, and there's. Onto this flat roof, and there's a. There's a wall on one end of this. And so in the summertime, when the kids were little, we had a projector, and we'd go out onto the flat roof, and we would project movies onto that wall and, like, lay on sleeping bags and eat popcorn. Like movies al fresco, Right?
- [41:34]
Michael Chernow
Awesome.
- [41:35]
Rich Roll
And on one of these nights, I fell asleep on the roof. Like, on the sleeping bag. In the sleeping bag. And in Southern California, like, even in the summer, like, it gets cold. It gets. You know, where I live, it goes into the, like, 40s at night, even in the summertime. And I had the best night of sleep. I woke up, I was like, this is incredible. I can't remember the last time I slept so well. So I told Julia, I said, I'm gonna sleep on the roof again. She's like, knock yourself out. Right? Yeah. Have a good time. And so that week, I slept on the roof every night, just on this flat roof in a sleeping bag. But I would wake up with all the condensation, like, soaking wet from all the condensation. So I went to rei and I got a little pup tent, and I put it on the roof, and I started sleeping out there, and I just fell in love with it. But every four to six months, I would have to get a new tent because the sun would just turn it into tissue paper, and it would shred. Eventually, I moved the tent down onto the yard, you know, like, in the yard. And this has been going on for so many years, and I've gone through so many tents that, like, two years ago, for my birthday, Julie got me, like, a legitimate. Like, one of those, like, glamping tents. And so we built a deck. So now I have this, like, beautiful glamping tent. And I have a. You know, I have a real bed in there. It's not like I'm sleeping on the ground. Like, I have a night. It's nice, you know, it's super bougie. Yeah. But it is outdoors, you know? And there's something about the outdoor air. It just agrees with me. The colder the better. I've never gone inside because it was too cold. And I've woken up and it's been 29 degrees. I just get a bunch of blankets and I love it. So that's been huge. It's extreme, you know.
- [43:24]
Michael Chernow
But before you go further, I have to tell you a story. So my wife is Danish. And the first year we were dating, I went to Denmark to visit her family with her. And it was the dead of winter. It was like we went there for Christmas. We went there for either right after Christmas for New Year's. We spent many Christmases out there, but. So we're in Copenhagen and I'm with her sister. Her sister just had a baby, like fucking two month old baby. And we're walking through Copenhagen and we're gonna go get lunch and we go into the restaurant and Bonnie, my sister in law, parks the baby in front of the restaurant in the carriage and leaves her outdoors in like brutally cold weather. And we go in the restaurant and I look around and there's like 30 baby strollers outside unattended to with babies in them. And I was like, what is going on here? Like, how is this possible? And I asked Donna, I was like, Donna, what's with all the babies in the cold? Like, what's happening? She's like, oh, we all, we all grew up sleeping outside.
- [44:34]
Rich Roll
Wow.
- [44:35]
Michael Chernow
They all.
- [44:36]
It is like how the baby's sleep. They don't sleep outside all night but for a nap or for, like if a baby is cranky and crying, they will literally take the baby outside in the cold weather, bundle them up and they fall asleep like angels. Everywhere in Copenhagen there are babies in the wintertime wild.
- [44:56]
Rich Roll
You get arrested here for that.
- [44:57]
Michael Chernow
Oh my God, are you kidding me? That would never fly here. Anyway, so keep going with your.
- [45:03]
Rich Roll
Anyway. Yeah, so I mean, that's all a long way of saying that, that I go to great lengths to, you know, try to prioritize sleep. I go to bed early, I go to bed, you know, between 8:30 and 9. I never, I never schedule like things in the morning. Like that's my time for working out morning routine. I try not to have anything on my calendar before noon. Life intervenes. Sometimes you have to go out late at night for some event or you have a. There's a just a meeting. You've got the only time it can happen. So it's like, I try not to be too insane about this, but as a general rule, like that's, that's my thing. And I don't set an alarm. I still wake up. I wake up, you know, between five and six usually, but I don't set an alarm. I allow myself to wake up when I, when my body feels ready to wake up, I wear a sleep mask. I listen to like binaural beats, you know, like, you know that like frequency, that sleep frequency is helpful to me as well. I take magnesium. The one thing that I'm not good at though is eating late at night. I tend to eat too much late at night, so that will wake me up between 2 and 3, generally almost every single night. That aside, I think I have my routine like pretty dialed. I got to work on eating earlier, but it's difficult for me to fall asleep unless I feel full. Like if I'm hungry, I really struggle to fall asleep at night.
- [46:31]
Michael Chernow
What is like your typical sort of late night thing to eat?
- [46:34]
Rich Roll
Oh, well, it's, this is like an addict thing, right? Like I just want to have a bunch of carbs and just go into a narcoleptic state. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, you know what I mean? Like, if I'm, if I'm like, you know, like, oh, that'll, that'll knock me out, you know what I mean? That's why I end up waking up like when the insulin levels or whatever. So I have a lot of room for improvement there. But I, you know, I really like, you know, if you get like four or five hours of sleep and you're trying to like problem solve or do things, you know, your, your interactions with other people aren't good, like everything's off, you know, and when you have that solid eight hours or the occasional nine hours, like everything feels easy, you're fully present, you don't get stressed out by, you know, difficult situations that you have to navigate. Just makes such a huge difference. And I'm like, if I could wake up every single day and feel this way, like, what would I, what would I pay for that? What would I do to do it? So that's like what I'm always chasing. And like I said, the older I get, the harder, the more elusive it is. It's challenging anyway, getting that, what are you doing that I'm not doing?
- [47:45]
Michael Chernow
I'm not doing anything unique necessarily. I too have that kind of craving at like 7:38 at night. Now I still have to deal with kids. So like as soon as I get the kids down, which we split off on and off every other night, I Make myself a smoothie, and I make it nice and thick with a lot of ice so I can eat it kind of like ice cream. And that tends to sort of quell any potential, like, desire to want to grab the other frozen stuff or, like, you know, a bunch of peanut M and Ms. Yeah. Which are lovely. So I have that smoothie, typically, and that kind of helps me. And I, too, wonder, if I didn't have that thing an hour before bed, would I sleep better? I very rarely get more than seven and a half hours sleep, and it's typically, you know, it's always between seven and seven and a half, and very rarely do I get that eight. But when I do, when I do.
- [48:58]
Rich Roll
It'S pretty fucking good.
- [49:00]
Michael Chernow
It is, man. What would you name this chapter in.
- [49:06]
Rich Roll
Your life right now to bring it back to happiness? Another piece that I didn't mention earlier that Arthur's always hammering on about, when you reach a certain age and sort of stage of life, it becomes important to take the attention off yourself and to kind of share what, you know, what you've learned along the way for the next generation. And part of why I have this beard that's completely white, you know, and every day I threaten to shave it off because I look in the mirror and feel like I'm 100 years old is to embrace this stage of my life and the kind of elder statesman vibe. Most of my friends are much younger than me. They're your age bracket, like, younger. And I often, my wife and I joke because we're like, something happens when you get older, and you're like, yeah, like our generation. And, you know, they're looking at you like, speak for yourself, old man. You know what I mean? I start to think that I'm, like, 34, because all the people I'm hanging out with are that age. And I have to remind myself, dude, like, you could. You could be their dad. You know, Like, I had. I had Tom Holland on the podcast the other day, which was, like, super cool. What an incredible young man. He's 28, I think. Like, I'm. I have a stepson that's older than him. You know, like, I am at a different stage of life. And so the beard is a way of, like, not just reminding myself of that or acknowledging it, but actually, like, honoring it. And it's also why I. It's a big part of why I started this new media company, Voicing Change. Because as somebody who's been podcasting for 12 years, like, I've learned a lot of things. My show is what it is. But I'm sitting on this reservoir of wisdom, and I want to be able to, like, share that with the next generation of people, to kind of help them avoid the mistakes that I made and invest my energy in others rather than myself, because everything I do has my name. It's the Rich Roll Podcast and whatever it's all about, like, and there is something really liberating and beautiful and nourishing that is making me happy about, like, not necessarily shedding that, but, like, diverting a lot of my attention into how I can, like, you know, kind of mentor a new crop of people. So I'm doing that professionally with this podcast network, and I'm trying to do it in my life. Like, I want to be the person that people call for the life advice, because I've lived a life, you know, I've learned some things. So instead of trying to pretend like I'm 34 years old, why not own your space, which is like, yeah, you're 58, dude, and it's pretty cool, and you've done some stuff, and now it's time to, like, pay it forward a little bit.
- [52:30]
Michael Chernow
So do you think you'd name the chapter Own it. Own the Beard. Own the Beard.
- [52:36]
Rich Roll
Own It. I mean, own It. Yeah, but I think Own It. That can mean different things to other people. I mean, maybe I would call this chapter, like, the elder. The, you know, elder statesman vibes. You know, like, I could still roll with you. Like, I'm cool. I got energy, but I also know.
- [52:55]
Michael Chernow
I'm 58, you know, rich. If it. If it. If it makes you. If it. If it adds any. Any. Any happiness and light, I. I want to be like you and I grow up, dude. Really? You're. You're living a life that is, like. And I know, you know, what people perceive on the outside could feel very different than what we feel on the inside. And you've made it clear that, like, there is definitely a juxtaposition there that, you know, you've struggled with. And also, I've looked at. In balancing. I just. You're a fascinating dude, and you've met so many great people, and you have, like, the episode that I did on your podcast, the amount of people. The sheer amount of people that reached out to me and poured their hearts out about our discussion and the story stuff. You do that every day. Every day.
- [54:01]
Rich Roll
Yeah, but you brought. You brought a very particular level of heat to that. But, you know, that was a really special episode, dude.
- [54:08]
Michael Chernow
Well, thanks, man, but I just. I just like, you know, when I, when I think about that, you know, you, your Rich role, you have this really amazing, successful podcast. But actually it really helps people. Like, really helps people. Like, I was, you know, if I post something on Instagram and you know, people DM me, hey, man, you know, can I talk to you about my story? I'm just telling you that, like, the, the outpouring of people from that, from. From that episode of the podcast was like, sort of awe inspiring. It was crazy. And when I asked you to come on my show, I was, you know, I was like, man, I wonder if Rich is gonna do it. But I like, like, it's such an honor to have you here, dude.
- [55:00]
Rich Roll
Really? Thanks, man.
- [55:02]
Michael Chernow
It is.
- [55:02]
Rich Roll
I too, I'm trying to get better at just like saying thank you because in my mind I'm like, yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but. And I'm like, no, dude, just say thank you.
- [55:12]
Michael Chernow
Hell yeah. Because you fucking deserve it, man. You deserve it, dude. And, and you know, if anybody hasn't read Rich's book Finding Ultra, you should definitely read that book. I loved that book. I smell sped through that book. It was such a good, like, I related so much to that book, you know, so much. There were so many components of it. You know, even the, when the pedal broke and you know you were fucking done and you're like, there's no way. There's going to be. It's impossible. I can't finish this thing. And somebody shows up, you know, God was like, well, is that right?
- [55:47]
Rich Roll
Yeah, you know, man, so don't leave before the miracle.
- [55:53]
Michael Chernow
Don't you know, this was so incredible, man. Where is like the most fun place for people to sort of follow along right now?
- [56:00]
Rich Roll
Thank you for having me on. And when he reached out to me, I was like, of course. You know, of course. So really happy to be here. And this was really fun. You could just. Richroll.com is where all my stuff is. Rich Roll Podcast, wherever you enjoy podcasts, rich roll on YouTube, Instagram, all those places. And voicing changes is voicingChange Media is the website for the new podcast network so you can learn about our various shows there. We have five shows at the moment and growing. We have Rainn Wilson's Soulboom. We have Alexi Pappas mentor Buffet Rangan Chatterjee show. Feel better Live more. Simon Hill's the Proof, which is a nutrition science podcast. And we just launched Baratunde Thurston's new podcast called Life with With Machines, which is all about how we retain Our humanity in the rapidly evolving world of artificial intelligence. So it's cool. It's been really fun to work with these people.
- [57:06]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, man. We didn't really talk about fitness or plant based anything. Just like when I was on your pod. We didn't touch any fitness at all.
- [57:15]
Rich Roll
It didn't matter, did it?
- [57:17]
Michael Chernow
No.
- [57:18]
Rich Roll
Plenty of fitness information about you and around, you know, many, countless episodes of many podcasts.
- [57:26]
Michael Chernow
This is super, super duper dope. And in New York City, we're sitting in the middle of Times Square. Lots of sirens, lots of screaming.
- [57:34]
Rich Roll
It's undefeated, dude. Can I tell you how happy I am to be here? I love all of it. I brought all my cold weather clothes. It's 80 degrees out right now. It just couldn't be nicer out. And the city is alive and I miss it dearly and I'm really happy to be here.
- [57:52]
Michael Chernow
I'm gonna. When we finish this, I'm gonna. I brought my running gear with me. I'm gonna leave these here and I'm gonna run from Times Square back to Brooklyn and just take in the last few sort of dog day summer days.
- [58:06]
Rich Roll
It's got a little cooler today. It's gonna shift soon. I think this is perfect.
- [58:10]
Michael Chernow
This is the absolute perfect running weather.
- [58:14]
Rich Roll
100%.
- [58:15]
Michael Chernow
All right, y'all. Well, I don't, you know, I don't know. I don't have to say much. That was incredible. I can sit here and listen to Rich all day and I think you guys probably could and can, I'm sure could and do on a regular basis from his podcast. So I'm gonna close it out there. Ladies and gents, boys and girls, all shapes, sizes, we are out. Do me a favor, though. Share this podcast with a friend. Share it with a loved one. Share it with potentially a foe. Maybe you bury the hatchet with this dear podcast episode here today and send it to somebody who you think would appreciate it. And if you're really feeling generous and kind, five star rating and review wouldn't hurt.
- [59:08]
And there you have it, folks. I hope we delivered some valuable content for you to implement into your life on a daily basis. Please remember that our habits have the power to make us or break us. Replacing bad habits with great ones is the answer to living a life of happiness, optimism, and high performance. We are capable of achieving anything. We all have what it takes to give it all we've got. Commit to one great habit each day and truly commit and watch how everything in your life starts evolving from good to great. If you enjoyed this podcast Please follow us wherever you listen to your podcast. Give us a five star rating and a nice review that will help us grow this podcast, bring on more amazing guests, and continue to deliver invaluable content on a weekly basis. Lastly, please share this podcast with any friends or family that you think might appreciate it. And always remember, want plus do equals have until the next one Fam Peace.