← Kreatures Of Habit Podcast 
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- [00:00]
Carl Daikeler
So for me, making it a lifestyle never worked for me and I think that's for that person. It's very difficult to contemplate making it a lifestyle. So make it a project. Just be like, let's use a metaphor. You want to build a coffee table for yourself, doesn't mean you're going to build a house. Just build the coffee table and see it through. So rather than build the house of your wellness so that you can walk and be mobile and agile in your 80s, let's just make this next quarter the most rewarding and gratifying and healthy project for yourself and see what happens on the other side of it. Like go through the austerity of consumption for 90 days and see what happens. Life is an experiment. So experiment with yourself, with a day, one and a day done. And if you do it with that mindset, get yourself a calendar. Draw X's through every day that you manage to do it. I think just like a person in recovery would count, hey, this is my 10th day. This is my 11th day. I'm gonna try to get my 12th day in. And like that microcosm of what could be a life of wellness is how I think a new person or a person who's like me that has a hard time turning it into a lifestyle. That's how they succeed.
- [01:26]
Michael Chernow
I'm Michael Chernow and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast. Our habits will make us or break us. It's just that simple. I've lived on both sides of the tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing some of the most inspiring, motivating and high performing humans I've encountered to share their daily habits, routines and rituals that help them stay on top of their game and, and ultimately happy. So sit back, relax and pay attention because what you hear over the next 30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life. Let's go. What up, y' all? Welcome back to the Creatures Habit pod. It's rare, it's rare that I get a chance to sit across the old podcast studio from somebody who has been in the world of wellness before we knew it as wellness. Carl Daikeler has been doing things, big things in the space that we call wellness now for decades. And you have probably heard of businesses like P90X that has like that truly revolutionized the the world of fitness and wellness as a whole, impacting millions, millions of people, sort of globally. And this is the creatures that have a podcast where we talk about hab routines and rituals to potentially live better lives. Right? And so I get to sit across the table from somebody who has been doing this for a long time and I imagine has unbelievable habits that he's going to share with us. But really, you know, it's when you can be able to learn from somebody who has impacted millions of people's lives through better decisions via fitness nutrition mindset. It's a special moment. So I'm really, really excited to be here with Carl. Carl, welcome to the show.
- [03:28]
Carl Daikeler
Thanks so much for having me on. And I'll warn you, honestly, I think that Bodi, which used to be known as Beachbody, but I think the premise of the platform is almost antithetical to what you promote. And that is, frankly, we're appealing to people like me who don't easily make it a habit. Who. Who wellness or proper nutrition, ongoing activity gets marginalized by everything else in life. And I think that, you know, people who get on their peloton every morning, they're creatures of habit. Good for them. The people who can sort through free workouts on YouTube because they love working out and they find the one for them. They're creatures of habit, my people. And who I am is. Is a person who every day is a restart because I don't love it and I've never loved it. So we sort of package it into, hey, make it a habit for a week or three weeks or 90 days, P90X being the famous one, because you're going to get a specific outcome, and if it becomes a habit after that, awesome. It never has for me, but. But it's an imperative. So that's been sort of the premise of it. Not to invalidate anything that you said, and I'll help whatever I can because I do have my own habits. But I think that's the appeal. Got a wedding, had a baby, vacation coming up. Let's lock you in for 90 days, get you a transformation, and then you figure it out after that.
- [05:04]
Michael Chernow
I love that you said that because I do believe that the majority, if not more than the majority of the population, are like you, right? People that just really battle with consistency and making better decisions on a daily basis. It's for me, too, you know, I feel kind of blessed that I've been given this drive to want to stick to these habits because of the outcomes that I receive on a daily basis. And I'm not even. I'm not just talking about, like, my physique. I'm talking about, like, just way more than my Physique, the physical outcome, I mean, the mental outcome of what making better decisions on a daily basis do for me. Right. Like, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a husband, father. I show up better in those roles when I take care of the foundational things that make me happy. And I don't. I think a lot of people struggle, and you would know more than I would, but I think a lot of people struggle. And with this idea that the sacrifice that you have to make to move your body to eat the thing that is going to actually nourish your body, not just make you crave more, they battle with this idea that that's going to be. That is the answer, that that is going to actually make you feel better. Right. And so the programs that you've put in place, the nutritional systems that you've put in place over the years with Beachbody and now Bodi have. Have really, you know, helped people change their lives. Right? I mean, would you agree?
- [06:45]
Carl Daikeler
Oh, yeah. Well, the. The before and afters and success stories like that is the wind beneath my wings. Like, I, you know, doing this for over 25 years. And to see the dramatic lifestyle change that these silly ideas that we get is so rewarding and so gratifying. But it's funny, you said something that I. That I. It goes over many people's heads. Like you said, the choice to do something better for yourself or something to that effect, like, to make the healthy choice or make the better choice, you said. And that's what's so difficult for people, because people are running at a thousand miles an hour. Like, they're just trying to hold it together. Moms and dads and work and traffic and the threat of technology or the pressure to be. You got all this technology now, you better be more productive. Like, and, you know, you got all this social media surrounding you with ideals and standards, and you're like, man, I got to catch up. And so. So there's all this anxiety and pressure. And so when you have a. When you have a second to just get a little bit of a break for yourself, the idea of using that second, let's call the second 20 minutes to put yourself through a crucible of pain, to build muscle or to be healthy doesn't feel like what you need. What I need is to sit on the couch and watch some TV or I need to eat a bag of chips because I deserve a break. But I think you're right, ultimately, that'll set you back. It's kind of like, you know, I know you're in recovery. So it's kind of like not drinking to try to improve turnaround a mood or celebrate something because it's actually going to have the opposite effect probably. And, and I think that's the way I've started to look at fitness and nutrition is this hard thing that I'm doing at 5:30 or 6am is actually really so much better for me than maybe getting that extra 20 minutes of sleep. That, that's my opinion on it. And I think it's a tough thing to promote.
- [09:13]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, and it's also really hard to sell a habit, right? Like, it's, it's almost, it's, it's, it's, it's very, very difficult to sell someone going to bed earlier, waking up earlier, getting 10,000 steps, putting on your sneakers to go to the gym. Like those things, those sort of foundational, early, the earliest moments before a habit comes to fruition. Those pieces are very, very difficult or if not impossible to sell.
- [09:44]
Carl Daikeler
Did you ever put your kids on or go on one of those carousels, like you spin them as fast as you can right in the playgrounds? Well, once that thing gets spinning, you can't get on. That's life. So, like a habit is there. Where am I supposed to go? It can't jump, just jump on. So a person has to take some radical, wild commitment to get that new thing on this spinning carousel. Particularly because you have all these other habits. Many of them feel good. I was talking to somebody the other day and she's like trying to lose weight and she thinks she's doing everything right. And she said, but, you know, I have my last meal at 9 o' clock at night. I'm like, well, she goes, she goes, I always like my 9 o' clock snack. And I said, and she has been saying that food is her fuel. And I said, that's not fuel. That's a reflex. That's a hobby. That's your nine o' clock hobby. Let's not confuse this. So you're choosing that hobby over your objective that you have. She's type 2 diabetic to reduce your vulnerability to going into permanent diabetes or suffering whatever consequences she might be vulnerable to with type 2 diabetes. I'm like, you got to understand the habit's waiting for you, but you got to redefine the habits that you currently covet. And that's not an easy thing for people to do.
- [11:15]
Michael Chernow
You know the hardest part to explain, And I honestly feel privileged, right? Like, I feel privileged that I've been, I've been Exposed to the world of recovery. Right? Because recovery is a choice. It is you. I mean a lot of people will say that it's out of my control, which I can totally relate to. Right. Like when you're deep in the throes of recovery, choosing to not pick up or use is very, very difficult and in some cases for people impossible. Right. However, I have come out on the other side. So I know for sure, without a doubt, with undoubtedly it's a fucking choice. It's a choice I get to choose, right? And I think that piece, if we were able to encapsulate that moment where you're on the fence, you're thinking about, you're planning the attack, you're planning the walk to the pantry, right? You're on the couch, it's 8:30 at night, that sweet tooth fires up, you're ready to fucking take the leap and you're like, you're planning out. I'm going to go over there, I'm going to grab the bag, it's going to be, I'm going to sit down and do it. If we were able to encapsulate a, make a pill that would just be like, nope, not gonna do it, not gonna do it. So I feel really blessed and lucky that recovery was a part of my life because I had to practice. I was, I would, it was, for me it was life or death, you know, and there were many moments where I was like, death, I'll take death, let's go. You know. And so I had to practice this, this discipline component of making the better decision.
- [12:58]
Carl Daikeler
Well imagine, you know, I think there's a lot of judgment around lifestyle choices, exercise and nutrition or just obesity. And so imagine though, so there you are, life or death. That's super acute. So people can choose death or the self destruction, let's say. And, but that is so acute. So imagine the lower grade fever that somebody's got because they're just 30 pounds overweight or 60 pounds overweight. So it's not death, but they still have that same desire. They want to go to that pantry, but it's not going to kill them. So they need something that's there, a voice. And I think this is where we as a company borrow from recovery to try to say, look, human nature, whether it's an acute situation like recovery from significant addiction to substance, alcohol, whatever, or trying to recover from self destructive habits related to lack of exercise or nutrition. So we have created a thing, we call it the body experience, which is just a community so that there's Somebody that you're connected to, kind of like a sponsor. So that when you're on your way to the pantry, you know you're going to have a conversation tomorrow with that community and you're going to either cop to it, you're going to hide it, or you're going to be able to say, I did the U turn and I went and I made some lemon water for myself, or I took a walk around the park or watched TV or I just managed to talk myself through it. But knowing that there's a community to answer to, like a sponsor, like, I always have somebody who I'm texting who, how'd you do yesterday? Did you do your workout? Like, I've got three or four people that they're my sort of workout buddies. I don't like to work out with anybody in a gym. I don't want any witnesses. But knowing that I've got that human being that I'm going to have to have a conversation with and I want to be honest with them, and I either showed up or I didn't, that is very similar, I think, in terms of the leverage that people who are serious about their recovery get from having a sponsor.
- [15:21]
Michael Chernow
You've been, you've been at this for a while, you've been in this industry for a long time. And I would imagine, well, I don't even have to imagine. It's changed enormously in the last even decade. Right? Like now it is. You know, there are celebrities that have built their whole entire career off of fitness, sharing their fitness routines, sharing their, their, their nutritional experiences. What have you seen over the last 25 years that you've been in business? In the world of fitness, nutrition, wellness, what have you seen to be like the biggest shift?
- [15:58]
Carl Daikeler
Certainly the advent of semi glutides and GLP1s, you know, Ozempic type of thing, and the adoption of that, not just for dealing with type 2 diabetes or pre diabetic, but to just lose 10 or 20 pounds. That's a big shift. And I think that the disservice of that as it's promoted is not that the 180 million people in the US who are overweight or obese are all going to do Ozempic, but that, let's say that there's, I don't know, 12 to 15 million people who have done it. I think the projections are something closer to 30 in the next five years or so, I think. But the danger or the consequence of that is the other 150, 160 million people now are like, well, there's a pill for that. So I'm going to be able to get those results when I'm ready, when my insurance company pays for the pill or the shot or they come up with something new that'll do it even faster without any. I don't have to exercise or eat right. So now there's just one more lever that lets me get off the hook. We've even had that within our own company. Not. Not related to GLP1s, but people who saw how fast the results people were getting with our programs and they wouldn't plug into the program because they're like, oh, you know what? Whenever I'm ready 90 days, I'm going to be able to solve all that. I'm like, no, no, that's not. That's not the way it works. So I think the advent of pharmaceuticals is a really big change. I think the other thing that is probably hurting the masses from being more proactive about their own fitness and nutrition is extreme biohacking that is surfaced on social media. So you see people with all their routines and tiktokers and influencers with this magical powder or pill or routine, put your face in water or whatever. So you get these. You get these wild extremes of biohacking. There's the billionaire guy, the rich guy that takes like 54 pills a morning and 54 for lunch, and the 35. So I think that just alienates the people who are missing the real point. That 20 to 30 minutes a day of movement, conscious movement that challenges you, that might be a little bit painful and uncomfortable and more conscious choices first just about limiting your portions and cutting out soda. Don't worry about all the hacks. Just do that and your whole life will transform. But we get so wrapped up in this perfection of the hacks and the cold water and the hot cold therapy and I don't know, compression and all the stuff that I have to do. It's like, I'll forget it. I'm gonna watch tv. So for me, who I don't have the time or patience to wade through all those options to me. So I drink my shake, I do my workout, and I'm more conscious about how I eat. I'm gonna have the pizza. I'm just not gonna eat the whole pizza. I'm gonna have a slice or two. And my life is great because of that. And it doesn't consume me. But I'm in better shape at 61 than I was when I was 35. And it was so simple. So I think that this rise of the trillion dollar wellness revolution is doing a disservice to the people who just need to move more.
- [19:52]
Michael Chernow
So for the person listening that is there who is like, knows they need a shift. No, knows they need something and they're overwhelmed by all the shit that's out there, just simply lay it out. What do you think? Like, like what steps?
- [20:09]
Carl Daikeler
It's going to sound like I'm self promoting, but there's a reason that we built the company the way we did. Okay. Because I knew. I've joined. I've been joining gyms since I was in my teens and I've been wasting my money on gyms since I was in my teens because I will join them with great intent, but then time or other priorities would always get in my way. And like I said, I don't like working out in front of people. It's just, I'm private that way. So for me, making it a lifestyle never worked for me. And I think that's for that person. It's very difficult to contemplate making it a lifestyle. So make it a project. Just be like, let's use a metaphor. You want to build a coffee table for yourself, doesn't mean you're going to build a house. Just build the coffee table and see it through. So rather than build the house of your wellness so that you can walk and be mobile and agile in your 80s and let's just make this next quarter the most rewarding and gratifying and healthy project for yourself and see what happens on the other side of it. Like go through the austerity of consumption for 90 days and see what happens. Life is an experiment. So experiment with yourself with a day, one and a day done. And if you do it with that mindset, get yourself a calendar. Draw X's through every day that you manage to do it. I think just like a person in recovery would count, hey, this is my 10th day. This is my 11th day. I'm gonna try to get my 12th day in. And like that microcosm of what could be a life of wellness is how I think a new person or a person who's like me that has a hard time turning it into a lifestyle. That's how they succeed. Make it a little project. And so this is the self promotion part. Body has never been like a gym that you just go to and I'm just going to go do my workout or a peloton or any of these companies that you're just like, just jump in and do your workout. Everything we do is step by step like a personal trainer that you said, what can I do in eight weeks? What are your goals? I'd like to lose three inches off my waist, four inches off my waist. I'd like to drop 20 pounds. Okay, here's how you're going to eat. Here are the workouts, step by step. And the good news is you're not going to spend a few grand on that trainer. You're going to spend 50 cents a day and do it right at home. That's how I think a new person gets started. Pick a day one, pick the right program, see it through and if you fall off track, this is where you build muscle, this is where you can turn it into a lifestyle. When you fall off track, not if, when you fall off track. Have some sort of recovery mechanism prepared for yourself. Whether it's the Body experience community. We have a mindset series called the Body Power Mindset Project to help people get back on track if they fall off or just find a way to push play again. And, and that is why I do it. I've been doing this for too long. It's not about wealth generation. I mean I have a responsibility to shareholders and stuff and I want to make that work out. But really what drives me is, and has been driving me is there's 100 million people that I've got to get to as fast as possible because their life could be so much better. And that's what I want to do. That's what drives me.
- [23:54]
Michael Chernow
What does a day look like for you in the morning? What does a morning look like for you? For someone who self proclaimed struggles with the business that you've built to help people be, be better?
- [24:09]
Carl Daikeler
Well, I've created routine. I would, I would not, I would not go so far as to say it's a habit but, but I have a routine which I suppose makes it a habit and I know that by locking in that routine it gets me sort of like a train on its tracks. Now I'm on my tracks for the day so for me it's starts the night before. I really need to be in bed around 10. If I go to 10:30, if I go to 11, there's going to be a ripple effect into the next day because I want to be up between five and six. If I get up between five and six, I've got enough time to really focus on taking care of myself. I'll grab 16 ounces of water, squeeze some lemon in there, knock that back, tablespoon of apple cider. Vinegar, 4 tablespoons of raw kefir and a tablespoon of olive oil. Then probably take my pre workout energize. That basically pulls the pin. Once I do that, I have to do the workout, go do the cold plunge. I'm probably opposite of the way you're supposed to do it. I'm not sure. But if I cold plunge before I work out, I attack my workout much harder because I'm like, I'm like, I want to. So it's like the opposite of warming up. I don't know.
- [25:32]
Michael Chernow
But you want to warm up, right?
- [25:34]
Carl Daikeler
But, but I like, like and I do, I do the warm up. But there's something like I, I feel tight. This whole body's like ready to go after the cold plunge. So then I'll. So cold plunge, do the workout, drink my.
- [25:47]
Michael Chernow
What is the workout?
- [25:48]
Carl Daikeler
Typically I'll pull something out of the library. Like I'll basically plan two weeks out. What am I going to do from the library? So I just finished a program by trainer Kelsey Heenan called Get Stronger. I mixed in with, mixed that in with a program called Bodi Lava. So Get Stronger is a lifting program. Mixed that in with a combination of power yoga and primal moves. So really good for range of motion. That really worked well for me for basically two weeks. And then as I get to the end of that, I'll be like, okay, what do I need right now? What's out of balance to am I feeling certain aches and pains? Do I need a day off or two? Which is always dangerous for me. Day or two off is very easily a month off if I'm not very careful. So I gotta plan, when am I back at it? And then so in June, I'm not sure when this'll post, but in June I've got a big group of people that I'm gonna be doing a new program with called 25 Minute Speed Train, which is a combination lifting cardio and recovery seven days a week. I'm pretty excited about that. So I'm guessing we'll have like 50,000 people doing that program in gym.
- [27:01]
Michael Chernow
Wow.
- [27:02]
Carl Daikeler
Yeah.
- [27:02]
Michael Chernow
You know, like, I'm grateful that you said 20 minutes, 30 minutes, because I think 20 to 30 minutes, when people think of a workout, most people go to an hour. Right. Like that's kind of what the general masses think, especially if that workout is not at home. Right. That hour could be a two hour process. Getting to the gym, working out, taking a shower, getting back in the car, whatever it is. Right. Walking to the gym. However, wherever you live. And so this idea that this 20 to 30 minute workout, now we're not talking to the person that has this wellness sort of lifestyle already. Right. Most of those people are already locked in. They know what it is. They do work out longer. Someone like me, you know, like, I feel like the ability to be able to say to somebody, hey, all you need to do is move your body intentionally for 20 to 30 minutes a day. And the chances of you reaching a goal that you've been kicking yourself in the ass about for so long are viable.
- [28:13]
Carl Daikeler
Totally. Totally. And I think, you know, when I watch people work out, if I'm watching them at a gym or I see people's videos, this is the difference. Intensity matters. And so I can easily, if I'm just trying to throw something together, if I'm not doing one of our programs. You're right, man. 90 minutes, 120 minutes. If I'm just sort of dicking around, like, I'll do, let's see, I'm going to put kind of together. It's just not as tight. When you're following a program that has literally been tested and proven, you can get such a more intense experience in 30 minutes than I could ever get in two hours. Now, there are certain times, if you're training for power, you want to have longer breaks. We don't really serve that. And we have 45 minute to 60 minute workouts where we really want to take our time with the cueing and the move set up, which a little bit more gradual can help some people sort of navigate the workout with more grace. But when we created a 20 minute program called job one with Jennifer Jacobs, and I was blown away that, I mean, we did that like we were 19, 20 years old. And I'm like, what took me so long to create a 20 minute series because it's so tight and the people were like, like there's just no excuse. Time being the biggest excuse. Like if I don't have to get in the car and drive and find a parking spot and walk by that front desk and I feel them judging me and, and then try to put the workout together. But I can just get it done in the same amount of time that it took me to get dressed before in that 20 minutes. That is super gratifying. And that's where the light bulb goes off for people. Which is why we've got, I think, such enthusiastic subscribers is they're like, oh, wow, 20 to 30 minutes actually works.
- [30:17]
C
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- [31:41]
Michael Chernow
Back to the pod. So the business body. Now you guys obviously have a ton of programming. You have an app that's super easy to use. What else does the business, what else is under the umbrella? Is there a lot of nutrition under the umbrella?
- [31:54]
Carl Daikeler
Yeah, I don't know about a lot of it. Like part of the, part of the discipline or the fundamental of what body is, is simplicity. So we could, we could chase whatever spin on nutrition is really popular, but instead we've been very vigilant about keeping it simple. So we've got two primary nutrition plans. One's called to be Mindset, which is a intuitive way of eating with some guidelines that helps drink water, eat a lot of veggies and have a sort of a cadence of how you drink water, eat vegetables and proteins before you get to some of the other stuff so that there's less room for the other stuff anyway. So there's like these great mnemonic and other devices that Elana Muhlstein is a registered dietitian nutritionist that put that together that she employs and she herself lost £100 to you know, so she's like proof that this works. We also have portion control, which was a, an idea that I had literally decades ago that was, if I just to have a bowl and if I only eat what fits in the bowl, I'll lose weight. Now, ultimately, that was not complete enough and healthy enough. So when it came time to develop that at the company, Autumn Calabrese, who's a trainer and nutrition expert, created these macro, these little color coded containers. So how many of these greens for vegetables do I need to eat a day? How many of these purples for fruits? How many of these reds for protein, blue for healthy fats? Anyway, so on. And then there's recipes that tell you what colors you're having so that during the day, rather than count points or calories, you're basically racking up enough of these colors and you know, hey, I got room for a cookie left. Or I can have a cocktail tonight because I still have that yellow left. Okay, so those are the two basics. Now there's others that are for specific acute issues. If you have gut issues, we have four week gut protocol that's also using the container program, how to change the containers for four week gut protocol. Or there's a new one called Belvital, which for women's is for women's hormone health to provide improvement in insulin response and the cortisol curve. And that also uses the containers. But that's pretty much it. Like, while there are aspects of, for instance, intermittent fasting in there, and I think intermittent fasting can be very effective for people, I never felt comfortable really sinking my teeth into intermittent fasting, because what I saw is people using intermittent fasting as a way to really get more dysfunctional about starving themselves. So all they were using the intermittent fasting for was starving themselves. So they would gouge in one meal and starve themselves, and then they would start to eat less and less in the one meal and you're back into a eating disorder issue. So I was like, you know what? That needs adult supervision. We're a virtual company. I'm not really comfortable yet providing that kind of thing. So that's the way we approach nutrition. And then the shake that I mentioned really was formulated to help me solve my own problem because I hate vegetables. So I'm like, hey, if I can do a shot of tequila, there's got to be a way for me to get a shot of greens in. So that's what I asked them to formulate and what they came up with, this superfood protein probiotic fiber concoction that actually tastes good, checks all the boxes for me. So regardless of, you know, I still try to eat healthy. I'm trying to find a way to get vegetables into my face, but, but I know I can have that shake to check the boxes every day.
- [36:02]
Michael Chernow
And in terms of direction, where do you, where do you see body going?
- [36:07]
Carl Daikeler
I think that, and we're going to continue in the direction that we're headed. I do think that we're just launching this community called the Bodi Experience to institutionalize support. We had a multi level marketing. You familiar with that? We had a multi level marketing component which was extremely successful. Some of the most amazing people I've ever worked with. But what happens is that starts to mature where you get this layer that is at the top making incredible money and it starts to become an entitlement and it starts to lose its focus on what the point was. And the point is we're all sharing in motivating people to be more active and eat and make healthier eating choices. And it got more about celebrating who was making the most money, how their ranks were going and, and it became economically unsustainable. So instead we moved out of that. I still feel like it's important that the people who get incredible results with our programs have an incentive or are rewarded if they share their results with other people because they're creating demand. Their hard work creates the demand, right? So somebody loses 50 pounds and they tell 100 people about it, they deserve a cut. But I didn't want to have the baggage of multi level marketing anymore. So now what we've gotten back to is the whole community working together in a flat way without the hierarchy that the multi level marketing had and encouraging people, hey, just have two or three people who you're talking to just for a month or for this, you know, as we're doing 25 minute speed train, like just get yourself a little group of three or four people and do that together. Share it on this platform that we reward you with discounts and points and stuff if you're helping inspire people and people are going to get great results. So I think that, you know, while there's a fascination with technology and fitness these days, I think that what we've got to do, what our company needs to do is continue to create programs that get people results, but find a way to make the analog experience human to human, outside in the gym or even virtually through chats, get people sharing more. And that's, that's where I think the, the real that that's the change agent I think that we want to pursue.
- [38:51]
Michael Chernow
There's a lot of entrepreneurs that watch or listen to this show. They're, I would say, you know, 50 to 60% of the people that are subscribed to the show are entrepreneurs. You're a successful entrepreneur. So I want to ask you some entrepreneurial questions. If you had to point to a few, a few components of what has helped you be successful. Because let's call a spade a spade, right? Being an entrepreneur, there's not a moment along the journey where it's not hard. I think, you know, there's this sort of glamour around entrepreneurship, right. That you know, you're your own boss and you know, you hear about the super successful ones, but you don't hear about the 99% that are not super successful. So it is an uphill battle almost all the time. What, what would you, what do you think has attributed to your success as an entrepreneur? What, what, what few things have you kind of pointed out to yourself or maybe and haven't even thought about it, but I'm asking you now.
- [39:48]
Carl Daikeler
Yeah, well, first off, I appreciate you saying, you know, successful. I don't feel that way and that could be part of it, quite honestly, probably the opposite because of the arc that the company's had and it's, you know, I'm quite embarrassed by, or I wouldn't say ashamed of, but disappointed that I didn't anticipate what the changes coming out of the pandemic might mean. Although who's been through a pandemic? So I don't know. But the end of the infomercial, for instance, the end of DVDs and moving to digital, all these dynamics came to an incredible point coming out of the pandemic and like reality just hit the in home fitness business in a like a tidal wave. But within that is the answer to your question. I think despite how hard it is, there is just zero quit, relentless persistence. I'm not the smartest. I know that I'm not the most creative. You know, I'm relearning marketing completely to understand this non linear difficult to attribute where your best, where your orders are coming from with the highest efficiency of media. But I don't care because nobody is going to outwork me. That is my. That's just, that's the way I wake up. That's the way I go to bed. Every movie I watch, every TV show I watch, I am sucking that thing for clues on how to do better. Every. Like I watched the founder which is the story of the Ray Kroc who built McDonald's. Like, I watched the movie and I'm rewinding it to get a scene going. Wait, what just happened there that nobody would. They're being entertained. Sit back and enjoy the movie. No, I need to study what that dynamic was and that could be obsessive. But for me, obsessive is how I'm wired. I'm not a believer in work life balance. So anyway, to any entrepreneur, you are not alone with your struggle. Any. And I would encourage you to read stories of other entrepreneurs. And you'll be shocked because I find them very entertaining. To shoe dog the Phil Nike story. Like that company should not exist. The story of building Tesla, the story of Apple. Like, you know, I just listened to, I think it's called Built from Scratch. The story of Home Depot shouldn't exist. Like being an entrepreneur is brutal and, but we get this life to experiment with. And so you try to experiment, try to create something and have meaning in your life. Sorry for the long answer, but I get on a rant sometimes.
- [43:17]
Michael Chernow
No, I love the answer.
- [43:18]
Carl Daikeler
Well, you know, you know how people are depressed and we're talking about mental health a lot and I think it's very important. People have anxiety and they get depressed and I think that happens because our survival is not in question. Although there's things happening that might make you wonder if the apocalypse is here. But, but, but our survival, we got a roof over our heads. Food is generally not that hard to acquire. We got enough. And so it can be depressing to your life to be like, well, what, what am I doing? I'm not fighting for survival now. So I think you have to fight to occupy your life and create from it. And when you feel hopeless, that's because you stopped creating. Or you let fear enter the dialogue and take up too much space where you could otherwise be creating your own hope. That's what entrepreneurs need to do. And I learned from. I had like three mentors that were. I've got dozens of mentors, but there's three in particular who the resounding or recurring theme was try something else. You're trying something. Pack a parachute, try something else. Now that does not mean like what I haven't done is diversify in a way that just in case that fails, I'm all in on the thing that I'm doing. But while I'm doing it, I'm trying to understand, well, if I'm a little bit wrong, what would the counter argument be? That I should be aware of just in case this guess is completely wrong. But I'm still doing this. So I'm gonna see this all the way through. But I'm paying attention to this other option of with the business, right? So that persistence and I'm sure you, I'm sure you went through this with Seymour's. And you know, I mean, anybody who builds a restaurant chain that's chewing glass, man, I don't know how you did that. Like, restaurant business is, I think, the hardest. But you got to just be smart about everything and question everything and be able to coexist with mistakes and people making mistakes that you can't control, or people screwing you out of things. And yet you just hang in there and you make it work, man. Good for you. That's what an entrepreneur does. Relentless. Refuses, punch me, knock me out, but I'm going to climb up those fucking ropes and I'm going to get right back at it until somebody waves me off and pushes me out of this arena.
- [45:46]
Michael Chernow
I just did a. Before you got here, I did a. A little solo episode and I call it the peds. And in the world of fitness, you know, you think of peds as performance enhancing drugs. In the world of entrepreneurship, the peds for me are patience, endurance and discipline. Period. Done. You don't have to be the fucking smartest. You don't have to be the toughest, you don't have to be the most creative. But if you're there the longest, if you do not throw in the towel no matter what, the only thing that I have found to be that has to be done perfectly in this life for the chosen entrepreneur life is get back up. It's the only thing. Because I also love that you said try something else. Like, I think we get caught in this, this self inflicted lie that man, if we change our mind, we're failing. Changing your mind should be something that you are very comfortable fucking doing as an entrepreneur. Right? Like it's okay to want to just change course, not quit just. You made a decision, you took the risk. It might not work out or it might not be working out the way you envision it. Do something different.
- [47:08]
Carl Daikeler
Yeah.
- [47:09]
Michael Chernow
Change your mind.
- [47:10]
Carl Daikeler
Well, I think if I were to add, I don't know where you would put it in your, in your acronym, but pay attention or observe. You got to observe. Like, you can't just go through the motions and it's going to work. And if I keep doing it, I'm relentless and I don't give up. It will work out. You have to pay crazy Attention to what's going on. A good example of that is Steve Jobs in the development of the iPhone. So, like, they. He didn't want to let any. Because he was a walled garden, right? So the iOS system was a closed environment. He didn't want to let developers put apps on the phone. And the team was like, no, no, no, we really will get so much more leverage by having other people develop apps for the phone. And so that was like an 11th hour change that he made which turned the iPhone into like the most revolutionary productivity changer ever. Right? Like all these apps which completely obliterated the marketplace for other products that you would normally buy, cameras and whatever. Like, just by that decision, though, that he made. So people think of Steve Jobs, visionary, and he would do it his way, but he still had to observe and he still had to listen and think through. And so he made that change and it was part of how different, like, if you look at that compared to, for instance, BlackBerry, who. There's no way the iPhone should have completely dislocated the BlackBerry the way it did. It was everywhere. People were hooked on this thing. But those guys, again, I'm observing from a great distance, but my observation, because I was hooked on the BlackBerry and I thought, nothing's going to replace my love for this keyboard, but yeah, exactly. I love that thing.
- [49:07]
Michael Chernow
The noise.
- [49:08]
Carl Daikeler
Yeah. But the apps and the screen were so good that had they immediately paid attention to how is this possibly better than what we're doing right now? I don't think they would have been marginalized the way they were, and they would have held onto their business. And meanwhile, they, they, you know, billions of dollars of market capitalization got wiped out because they weren't paying attention to what might work better, which is something that scares the hell out of me. What am I not paying attention to right now that could be helping people more than I am right now with what my lane is, lifestyle change, activity, nutrition. So I got to always be paying attention. Never be so arrogant to think that I got it.
- [49:50]
Michael Chernow
All right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask you to get a little vulnerable, if you're cool with it.
- [49:55]
Carl Daikeler
I don't know.
- [49:55]
Michael Chernow
What is the. What is the. If you could think of the worst experience or the most difficult experience you've had as a business person, what was that and how did you respond to it?
- [50:11]
Carl Daikeler
I don't know if I'm going to answer this. Well, but. So when I. The. My first sort of serious entrepreneurial endeavor was with a partner. It was called telemerica and that was where it was before Beachbody. I created a tape called 8 Minute ABS and it was a big sensation, like a really. We sold it on tv, sold a couple million copies of it, ended up being in a movie, something about Mary. They talked about it, which was crazy. But my partner at the time in that business, he was the majority owner. I was like, I've got more, I've got more of these ideas. I think there's something here that we can provide basically personal training electronically in a much more cost effective way than people having to hire a trainer. And he didn't want to go that direction. He wanted to go more in the direction of a media company. And I tried multiple ways to try to get him to let me do that. And I just. We couldn't reconcile and I had to leave that company. So it was an incredible act. It was. There was a lot of courage for me to do that, but it was bitterly disappointing because, you know, I wanted to make that company work and I really felt like we could have continued to iterate on it. So that was a big disappointment that I couldn't see it through with Telemerica. I remember having a meeting. It was like, as we were observing in around 2014, 2015, we were observing Netflix grow. It was like, oh, this is going to move from DVDs to digital. So we have all these programs now. We have over 140 step by step programs you can do. So we're like the Netflix of fitness. And literally that phrase was a phrase I was like, that had meaning to me and I sank my teeth into it. And I think it was, it was such a good little phrase. And I got so excited by the concept of being the Netflix of fitness that I missed. Like, if I had just stopped for a second, had a little moment of silence with myself, I would have said, yeah, but wait. People don't consume fitness content the way they consume entertainment content. People consume fitness content one at a time. So there's one thing that's meaningful to them at a time. Not all 140 programs, the one that they're going to do. So I think I missed an opportunity. I could have saved three years of head scratching as to why is it difficult to sell this Netflix of fitness where we had been so it was so predictable and reliable to sell P90X insanity 21 day fix morning meltdown 100 and so on. Like put up a concept and we'd get a million people buying. But then when I put up the whole thing, crickets, not quite crickets. But nowhere near the efficiency that we were selling the singular thing. And it took me a while for my ego to let go of the idea of Netflix and fitness and go, that's not what matters to people. What matters to people is that they have a cost effective resource. By cost effective, I mean perhaps more cost efficient than a personal trainer, but cost effective resource for instruction that they can rely on that will get them results. And that when they change their mind or when they decide to do the next thing, the next one is right there for them, ready to go. And so that's the way we've been engineering the platform to try to get it back to its roots of wanting people to be able to find their own on ramp versus coming to a buffet. And, and I think that's. That's an ongoing challenge that I think the whole in home fitness, because like, you, you wouldn't just want a connected bike as your fitness thing. Like, you're going to need more modalities, right? You wouldn't just want one piece of equipment. Although I think people go into it and they sort of impale themselves on that $2,500, that $2,000 purchase, because this is going to be the thing that I do. And then you find out, oh, I need more than that. I need some variety in this. And so we try to appeal to that. That was the genesis of insanity. We had all these people doing P90X incredible holistic program, but then we had people who were like, I want to train for a marathon. I want to go balls to the wall cardio. And we're like, all right, let's give them the hardest cardio program that's ever been created. So we've gotten back to that iteration now.
- [55:14]
Michael Chernow
Now I'm going to ask you to smell the roses. You said. When I mentioned that you were a successful entrepreneur, you said, you don't believe that. And I 100% can identify and relate to that feeling, right? Like, you've done some great things and people have. Chances are people like me have said things to you like, hey, you're super successful entrepreneur, and it's hard to, for whatever reason, metabolize that, right? Like, it's hard for us as hard charging people to smell the roses. So I'm gonna ask you to do it for the audience. Give us a moment where you sat back in your chair and said, wow, I've accomplished something big.
- [55:57]
Carl Daikeler
This is a hard podcast, man. But I'll go for an easy one. But it's powerful. Okay? So I have started to be Much more aggressive about showing myself working out. In order to demonstrate to our subscribers that I want, I am part of the experience of the product. I'm not just the CEO. And so I'll videotape myself. And then I've been using this, editing this cap cut, it's called. And I edit my little videos on Instagram. So the other day I was doing that and I have the team, we call it our FNR Team Fitness, Nutrition and Results Team. And they're constantly collecting the latest results. And I said, so they always keep up Dropbox folder of before and after results for me. And so I went there and I wanted to add a bunch of before and afters to an asset that I was going to put on Instagram. And, you know, it's one of those things Sunday evening and like, I wanted to put my results from 35 to 61 as the last thing, but I ended up spending three hours going through this file. And I'll be honest with you, I shed a tear or two watching people who looked so hopeless shed £150, or there was a couple that I saw where there was a woman who was like, so thin, you could just tell she was skin and bones and in real bad trouble and had worked her way back, put on 40 pounds and incredibly healthy. And I'm like, these little ideas that I have in the shower, doing my bike ride on the weekends or whatever, that those could end up turning into something that would touch somebody's life like that again, they get the credit for it. But the fact that there's a drop of catalyst that I managed to bring to their lives, I would be a fool not to think of this as a life well lived. To be a part of that, it's an incredible honor and a privilege.
- [58:31]
Michael Chernow
That's awesome. That's an incredible story, dude. And you've had a journey, and it's probably. I would imagine you sitting there feeling like it's just begun. You know, I think when. When you're able to, you know, there's a lot of. A lot of audacity for an entrepreneur, right, to be on a bike ride or on a run or on a walk or hanging out at home and come up with an idea that, that you think could potentially impact millions of people's lives.
- [59:03]
Carl Daikeler
Well, especially when everybody hates it. So, you know, P90X is a good example. Like, it's probably the one that became the most famous of everything that we've done. And it was. It was the follow up to this Power90 program, which was our first full program that we did in 2000. And Tony Horton was the trainer. And I said to him, I'm like, look, we got all these people, millions of people who have done Power 90. Let's give them the next one. And I was about to turn 40, and I was like, I've always wanted to be ripped. Like, I've lost weight. I've gotten in shape with our Power 90 program, but I want to be ripped like cover of Muscle and Fitness or Men's Fitness magazine ripped. So I want to do a program, Power 90 Extreme. And Tony's like, no. Like, we already. We already went against the odds with Power90 showing people doing push ups and squats and hard work. That's not the infomercial model. So let's not try it. Let's not tempt our fate and do this one of doing pull ups and crazy hour and a half yoga. Like, well, I'm gonna do it with somebody, so I'd love it if it would do it with you. And he came around, and the original name was Power 90 Extreme. And then I said, you know what? That's not as good. And I was working with this designer, Ned Farr, and we came up with just P90X and sounded cool, but literally the company hated the name. They were like, it means nothing. It means something to us. Doesn't mean anything to anybody else. I'm like, yeah, but that's the thing. We're going to redefine in home fitness. This is going to be just like Bowflex. Bowflex doesn't mean anything to anybody. But it was on tv. They were doing a billion dollars a year. Cost you $1,500. We're going to get them Bowflex results for 120 bucks. And so I'm not selling DVDs. I'm selling a mini Bowflex on a DVD. And so it's going to be P90X. And to do something that everybody said would never work and have it eventually. It took us a couple years to make it a household name, but to see that thing explode like that to the point that literally I had a chance to meet Obama at a fundraiser and literally to have a conversation when we were introduced to him. Oh, these are the guys. Beachbody, you might have known, they created P90X. He's like, P90X. My wife does P90X. And he points to all the Secret Service around him like, all these guys are doing P90X.
- [61:23]
Michael Chernow
So how was that? How did you not mention that in a. In a smelling The Roses moment, dude.
- [61:28]
Carl Daikeler
Like, it was a. It was a wild one. That was a. That was a big one. I mean, that's ego. But.
- [61:34]
Michael Chernow
But it is like, I was, you know, after. After Seymour's, and. And I had this little moment of time, right? The pandemic hit. And, you know, I had just exited the business, and nobody knew what the hell was going on in the world, right? No one. No one knew what was. What was going to happen. And I'm on a run in upstate New York and I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? Like, what's going to be the next move? I can't build a vision for a new restaurant brand in a climate like this. Like, who knows where it's going, right? Like, every restaurant. I had 12 restaurants in New York City at the time. Between Meatball Shop and Seymour's, the city shut down.
- [62:16]
Carl Daikeler
Yeah.
- [62:17]
Michael Chernow
Landlords were not like, oh, yeah, well, you know, you don't have to pay rent, right? But the city shut down. There was nothing we can do, right? And I still on the board of those businesses. So I'm thinking about, holy smokes, I gotta make a pivot, right? I gotta take a pivot and I'm on a run. And I've been eating this oatmeal concoction since the day I got sober. The guys who I was introduced to, who really helped bring me out of the world of pain and suffering in a very different way than the fitness Pain and Suffering introduced me to, gave me a meal plan, gave me a fitness plan, and wrote this hour by hour structure for my day. And God, thank you for giving me the balls to just like, I was desperate, right? They told me to eat oatmeal every morning. And they said, you can add whatever you want to it. So literally, the business is called Creatures of Habit. Because I have been eating this for years. And I was on this run and I'm like, holy shit, I'm just gonna fucking package my oatmeal. The stuff that I put into the oatmeal, the thing that's been fueling my body, the habit that I've stuck to nutritionally in the beginning of my day, for the last, at that point, 16 years, I'm gonna do this. I got home from that run and I said to my wife, I'm gonna package my oatmeal. And she was like, what? What are you talking about? The idea, right? As an entrepreneur, you come up with an idea and you have this weird, like, vision, like, obsession to bring it to life.
- [63:45]
Carl Daikeler
Yeah.
- [63:46]
Michael Chernow
And now millions of dollars in oatmeal every year. It's insane.
- [63:51]
Carl Daikeler
I want to try some of this oatmeal.
- [63:53]
Michael Chernow
I'm going to get you a bunch of it.
- [63:54]
Carl Daikeler
All right.
- [63:54]
Michael Chernow
But it's just. I just. I love being able to sit across from someone who's been doing it for a lot longer than I have and has been able to build these things, and me being able to relate so clearly to the conversations because there are people that are cut from a similar silk. Right. And I do think that you have to be a kind of person to not want to quit and think that you have an idea and have the courage and the confidence to be able to bring an idea to market and think that people are going to be like, oh, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. I'm going to spend money on that idea. Yeah, dude, you're awesome, man.
- [64:33]
Carl Daikeler
Thank you. Thank you so much. That was fun, and it was a challenging podcast. I would warn anybody who's thinking of coming on, you know, get your. Get your mind right. But, no, it's super cool. I like what you're doing, and I really dig your message. So it was a pleasure to be on.
- [64:47]
Michael Chernow
Thanks for being here. I know that was valuable. I know that was valuable in a number of different ways. And I'm so grateful to have been able to sit here with Carl, to really sort of dig into the mind of someone who's created. There's not a single person today that you mentioned P90X to, and they're like, oh, I know P90X or I know somebody who's done P90X or I've always wanted to do P90X. Well, now's your fucking shot. Go do it. This is. This is your cue. Go do it. Do it. Take the step at home. Don't need to leave. Don't need it. There's no excuse. You can today start. Don't worry about tomorrow. Yesterday's already gone. It's not worry. It's not worth wasting time thinking about what you didn't do yesterday. Today's the day. Today's the day. Pop on to the Bodi platform and just check it out. Pick out a program. Do it. Because what was said on the podcast today was in 20 minutes of sacrifice, you can absolutely, 100%, unequivocally. I'm sitting here as a living example. Carl's sitting here as a living example. Change your fucking life. It's facts. It's facts. Fitness, nutrition, and sleep. Those three things you commit. And I know it sounds like a lot. Maybe potentially sitting in the seat that you're sitting in, feeling like you've run up against a brick wall constantly. Today's the day. That simple. There's no better time than now. So if this podcast made an impact for you, do me a favor. Text a friend with this episode that you think would love to hear this. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. That would be a good next step. Give us a five star rating and a review if you're feeling super duper generous. And just know that I appreciate you. I love you. The community here means everything to me. And yeah, we'll just keep making great content. All I ask you to do is push play until the next one, y' all. Peace.