Earn It Every Day with Mesh Gelman

Summary

Kreatures Of Habit Podcast: Earn It Every Day with Mesh Gelman
Hosted by Michael Chernow
Release Date: July 9, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Earn It Every Day with Mesh Gelman," Michael Chernow delves deep into the entrepreneurial journey of Mesh Shapiro, the founder of Cumulus Coffee. The conversation weaves through Mesh's personal relationship with coffee, his tenure at Starbucks, the inception of Cumulus, overcoming failures, and maintaining disciplined routines amidst the chaos of building a startup.

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Journey with Coffee and Starbucks

Mesh Shapiro shares a poignant memory that underscores the ethos behind his work ethic:

"[00:00] Mesh Shapiro: ... Howard says, 'You know, the world would be okay tomorrow without Starbucks. We have to go there every single minute and earn our business. And we've worked so hard for this, and we got it. Tomorrow, go out and start again and earn it again.'"

This reflective moment with Howard Schultz highlights a relentless commitment to excellence—a principle that Mesh carries forward in his own ventures.

Transition to Personal Coffee Passion:

Mesh recounts his transformation from merely enjoying coffee to becoming a connoisseur, inspired by a dedicated barista named Jamie at a small Starbucks location in New York:

"[04:00] Mesh Shapiro: ... that guy single-handedly made me a coffee connoisseur."

Mesh's appreciation for quality coffee led him to recognize the limitations of large-scale operations like Starbucks, particularly in delivering high-quality cold brews consistently.

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Founding Cumulus Coffee

Inspiration Behind Cumulus:

Mesh articulates the gap he perceived in the cold brew market, emphasizing the need for a better, more reliable way to enjoy high-quality cold coffee at home:

"[13:08] Mesh Shapiro: ... there's got to be a better way."

Distinguishing Cold Brew and Nitro Cold Brew:

Mesh provides an insightful differentiation between regular cold brew and nitro cold brew:

"[13:21] Mesh Shapiro: ... when you infuse nitrogen into coffee, it makes the beverage sweet and creamy. It's silky, like a decadent dessert."

Cumulus Coffee aims to replicate the coffee shop experience at home, ensuring consistency and quality that rivals what one might get at Starbucks.

Product Development:

Mesh discusses the meticulous process behind perfecting their product:

"[14:12] Mesh Shapiro: ... we've worked so long on that head... two and a half years to get that perfect cream."

This dedication underscores Cumulus's commitment to delivering a superior coffee experience.

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Entrepreneurial Challenges and Resilience

Launching the Business:

Mesh outlines the timeline and challenges faced during the inception of Cumulus:

"[16:56] Mesh Shapiro: ... officially launched just last holiday in 2024, but the idea started late 2018."

Facing Overwhelm:

As the business scales, Mesh admits to feeling like he's "drinking from a fire hose," balancing immense responsibilities with limited resources.

"[17:36] Mesh Shapiro: ... it's like building an airplane as you fly."

Balancing Work and Personal Life:

Despite the intense demands of entrepreneurship, Mesh maintains boundaries, especially through cultural practices:

"[20:04] Mesh Shapiro: ... weekends are especially sacred, with phones off and computers down for family time."

This balance is crucial for sustaining long-term productivity and personal well-being.

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Overcoming Failures and Learning from Setbacks

Notable Failure in the Linen Business:

Mesh opens up about a significant setback during his time in the linen industry:

"[26:46] Mesh Shapiro: ... stepping into something without understanding what it would take... it wasn't tracking."

This experience was humbling, teaching him invaluable lessons about perseverance and the importance of adaptability.

Embracing the Truth in Business Decisions:

Michael and Mesh discuss the importance of confronting truths in business:

"[30:07] Michael Chernow: ... are you procrastinating the truth right now? Let's really look at that."

Mesh echoes this sentiment, emphasizing honesty and reflection as pillars of sustainable success.

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Routines and Habits

Morning Rituals:

Mesh outlines his disciplined morning routine, which sets a productive tone for the day:

"[44:44] Mesh Shapiro: ... grab my first cumulus and I run out. I go early to prayers at 6 am... listen to and study the Talmud during my drive."

This structured start combines personal spirituality with mental stimulation, fostering both inner peace and cognitive readiness.

Integration of Cumulus into Daily Life:

Mesh's routine seamlessly incorporates his product, underscoring its role in his daily habits:

"[44:41] Mesh Shapiro: ... my routine now involves cumulus."

This integration not only signifies personal endorsement but also highlights the product's effectiveness in enhancing daily experiences.

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Celebrating Wins and Sustaining Motivation

The Essence of Earning Success Daily:

Reflecting on Howard Schultz's message, Mesh emphasizes the importance of continually earning and reaffirming one's success:

"[32:00] Mesh Shapiro: ... the satisfaction I get is the reaffirmation of the insight or the thought that I had early on and was able to get it there."

Impact Over Numbers:

For Mesh, success is measured not just by metrics but by meaningful impact:

"[35:47] Mesh Shapiro: ... unlocking and realizing that what I dreamed of is manifesting itself one person at a time."

This perspective fosters a deeper connection with the product and its users, driving long-term motivation.

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Personal Reflections and Emotional Growth

Breath Work and Emotional Unveiling:

Michael shares a deeply personal experience with breath work, revealing buried emotions and memories related to his Jewish identity:

"[46:41] Michael Chernow: ... breath work... it's the most impactful, powerful, therapeutic experience I've ever had."

This introspective journey underscores the importance of self-awareness and emotional healing in personal growth.

Shared Vulnerability:

The candid exchange between Michael and Mesh highlights the therapeutic potential of openness and shared experiences:

"[51:50] Michael Chernow: ... it scared me so much to be Jewish that now my father's... I used to hide behind the fact that my father was Italian."

This vulnerability fosters a deeper connection between the hosts and the audience, emphasizing the human aspect of entrepreneurship.

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Engaging with the Audience and Future Endeavors

Connecting Through Multiple Channels:

Mesh encourages listeners to engage with Cumulus through various platforms:

"[52:47] Mesh Shapiro: ... visit our website at cumuluscoffee.com and listen to your podcast."

Expanding Cumulus Beyond Homes:

Plans for integrating Cumulus into broader environments are discussed, signaling future growth and accessibility:

"[53:17] Mesh Shapiro: ... getting Cumulus into different environments outside of the home... more ways to experience and participate in Cumulus as time goes on."

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Conclusion

The episode "Earn It Every Day with Mesh Gelman" offers a comprehensive look into Mesh Shapiro's journey as an entrepreneur passionate about elevating the coffee experience. Through candid conversations about successes, failures, personal routines, and emotional growth, listeners gain valuable insights into the dedication and resilience required to build a meaningful business. Mesh's story serves as an inspiring testament to the power of habits, continuous learning, and staying true to one's vision.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mesh Shapiro [00:00]: "Howard says, 'You know, the world would be okay tomorrow without Starbucks. We have to go there every single minute and earn our business.'"

• Mesh Shapiro [13:35]: "When you infuse nitrogen into coffee, it makes the beverage sweet and creamy. It's silky, like a decadent dessert."

• Michael Chernow [30:07]: "Are you procrastinating the truth right now? Let's really look at that."

• Mesh Shapiro [44:44]: "My morning routine... grab my first cumulus and I run out."

• Mesh Shapiro [35:47]: "Unlocking and realizing that what I dreamed of is manifesting itself one person at a time."

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This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Michael Chernow and Mesh Shapiro, highlighting key discussions, personal insights, and the entrepreneurial spirit that drives Cumulus Coffee.

Transcript

[Michael Chernow]

Do you celebrate the wins?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Rarely. One of the most powerful messages that resonated with me that I experienced was a meeting once at Starbucks with Howard. And it was a small gathering of leaders, and Howard was talking in a very open and vulnerable way. And this was like, I don't know, maybe 20, 15, 16, I don't remember the year, but at this time, 33,000 stores, maybe 25, 26 billion in revenue, massive company. And Howard's getting emotional and it's almost like he's tearing up, leaning in, listening, like, what's going on here? And he says something and he says, you know, the world would be okay tomorrow without Starbucks. We have to go there every single minute and earn our business. And we've worked so hard for this, and we got it. Tomorrow, go out and start again and earn it again.

[Michael Chernow]

I'm Michael Chernow and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast.

[Unknown]

Our habits will make us or break us.

[Michael Chernow]

It's just that simple. I've lit on both sides of the.

[Unknown]

Tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly.

[Michael Chernow]

Define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing.

[Unknown]

Some of the most inspiring, motivating and high performing humans I've encountered to share.

[Michael Chernow]

Their daily habits, routines, and rituals that help them stay on top of their game and ultimately happy.

[Unknown]

So sit back, relax, and pay attention, because what you hear over the next.

[Michael Chernow]

30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life. Let's go. What percentage of the world uses coffee on a regular basis?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Oh, like just. Yeah, exactly.

[Michael Chernow]

Just like, I mean, it's got to be the majority, right?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

You know, it was interesting. I just saw randomly, a few weeks ago, the National Coffee association put out a stat that coffee surpassed water as the most consumed beverage in the U.S. oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like more than water. It's like, like what?

[Michael Chernow]

Wow.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I was like, I was shocked when I read that.

[Michael Chernow]

That can't be good, but it's great. But, you know, like, so I. Coffee. My gosh. Like, I've got such a. Such a journey with coffee. And I somehow, I'm one of these guys now. Have I've been able to, like, manage my coffee because I love coffee, okay? Like, I genuinely love coffee. And I'm in recovery, so I'm sober now a long time. And when I got sober, I needed something to totally dive into that wasn't just food because obviously it's very easy to go from like, of course addiction to food addiction. And so I got crazy with coffee. I Mean, there was a guy in, in New York when I was getting sober, he opened up a place called Abrazzo. Do you remember this place?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

No.

[Michael Chernow]

Okay, so where was it? On 7th street between 1st and 2nd Avenue. Tiny little hole in the wall.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

A Brazilian place?

[Michael Chernow]

No, it was just, it's like, I think a Bratz. It was like Italian. And this guy Jamie, and he came from, I think, Bluebird Coffee.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Okay.

[Michael Chernow]

In San Francisco.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Okay.

[Michael Chernow]

And he came to New York and he was like, all I'm going to do is pull espresso. And I was working in an Italian restaurant and I was crazy about espresso. I was crazy about espresso. Like, I. If I got an espresso somewhere that wasn't well done, I was pissed, you know? And this guy Jamie sat. Tiny little place, sat behind the counter.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Just dialing it in, huh?

[Michael Chernow]

All day long. Jazz music.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

That's.

[Michael Chernow]

And there was a line out the freaking door. And that guy single handedly made me a coffee connoisseur.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing.

[Michael Chernow]

So I want to. Enough about me. Your story, like, coffee, like. So was it Starbucks that started this journey or was it. Were you passionate about coffee?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

What was it like? Everybody, I think coffee is a transformative beverage, right? It's more than, I think that it's more than just something that we need or want, but it's like, it's very personal to people. Like just your story right now with your espresso shots at Abrazzo, and everybody kind of has like their moment with their coffee. And so like, I think like in like the subliminal kind of like deep space in your head, it's like there's something there and it's something like, it's like, it's like you can't touch it, but it's there, right? And what the magic for me was the experience that Starbucks created, like the connection, the one person, one cup at a time, you know, millions and millions and millions of times over and over. And they created a really magical space. And I remember when Starbucks came to New York in the late 90s and I went to the first Starbucks location.

[Michael Chernow]

Where was that?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

On the west side, by Columbus, a little bit north of Columbus Circle. And it was just like, it was transformative. It was like, what's going on here? It's like, no, more like those little short styrofoam cups, you know, filled with like murky water. But it was like latte art and like, like, what is this? And. And like, look at the people. Look how they're behaving. Look how they're, like, anticipating and waiting. I'm like, what's going on here? Right? It's like culture. And that was like, something that, like, it opened up my eyes. It wasn't like a big moment. Like, that's when it happened, like, but it's. I think it was just part of that journey. And it's like, there's some. There's some magic to this beverage here. And, you know, and I was, like, mesmerized and, like, started, like, learning about the story of Starbucks and how Howard Schultz had gone from how he discovered the company, how he purchased the company. And I was just, like, following its journey and, like, it's, you know, just overwhelmed by it, honestly.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, it's interesting. I. So I grew up in Manhattan, and I remember my first real Starbucks memory, I think, and I don't have a clear vivid memory of it, but there was a Starbucks that opened up right on Astor Place pretty early on.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Oh, of course. On the corner, right? Yeah. That's a famous store.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. So I used to. That was my stomping grounds.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Oh, that's a great store. That's a great store. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

I mean, I would. Was it one of the few first.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It was early, yeah, yeah. So the round corner.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Right.

[Michael Chernow]

And when that place opened, I mean, that's where like, teenagers, right, like, you weren't able to hang out in bars necessarily, but that Starbucks was open till like one o' clock in the morning or something.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

That was your gathering spot.

[Michael Chernow]

That's where we would go. A bunch of kids, and they had that whole side area that was, like, kind of unmanned, you know, and we would just line up in there, you know, we'd skate, we'd go to Starbucks. Maybe somebody would buy a coffee. Maybe all of us would get a coffee.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Definitely water. They give you water.

[Michael Chernow]

Definitely water. But they just let us chill in there, man. Like, that's the fact. Right. And I think that was, like, one of the coolest things about that company. So, you know, when did you start at Starbucks?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I started in, like, after Howard had. Howard Schultz had retired from Starbucks in 2000. 2000, I think, something like 2000. He came back in 08. I had met Howard in 2004 and became friends with him and ended up joining the company in 2012 and got closer to the company and then ultimately was there for. Until. Just until 2018. So, yeah, it was a bunch of fun years.

[Michael Chernow]

Wow. And before Starbucks, what were you doing?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

You know, I was in a completely different industry I was in the home fashion space. So home furnishings, I think about, like, comforter sheets. And our company made private label for retailers. So, like, think about, like, JCPenney Kohl's, you know, their brands, and we would design and manufacture the, you know, the pillows and the clothes.

[Michael Chernow]

So it was all wholesale B2B.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Wholesale B2B.

[Michael Chernow]

No E comm.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

No, it was before we, you know, it was before the days of E. Com. Right. Like, it was the days of print catalog. Right. So it's like. So it was a lot of that. My dad has a great dad joke. He's like, I went from putting people to sleep to waking them up. So, you know, but that was like, it's like polar opposite businesses. Not just, you know, for the occasion, but like, how. Do you remember the last time you bought a pair of sheets? A set of sheets?

[Michael Chernow]

No, but you know what's interesting? I will say that, like, I'm always interested when I get that snail mail from Parachute home.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's good, right?

[Michael Chernow]

It's good. It's good. Like that snail mail. Those guys send out a good catalog.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Snail mail's having a moment. It is like online is so cluttered.

[Michael Chernow]

We do a great business in snail mail.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Really?

[Michael Chernow]

Creatures of habit. I mean, it's not like, you know, the roas on our snail mail is strong as hell. It's like a 10.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Wow. Yeah. Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

We don't invest a ton of money into it, but it's consistently been very strong for us.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I mean, it almost begs the question, why aren't you with those roas?

[Michael Chernow]

Well, I. Because I.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Because there's.

[Michael Chernow]

There's. The fact is, is that there's a limited resource.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Right. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

You know what I mean? Like, you. You don't have everybody's address in the world, so, like, you only have addresses that. That are potentially unreachable customers that were that engaged with your website. You know what I mean? So you only have a. So you can continue to beat those down.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah, the universe is small.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. And so, like, it's a small universe. And. And. But there's. There's, you know, we. We're taking our time with it. We're segmenting it out, you know, but. So Cumulus is a business that you have launched out of your sort of experience at Starbucks, seeing the magic of coffee and trying to bring an experience that is different in the world of coffee to the home.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

That's right. That's right. You know, there's. I was very fortunate. The years that I was at Starbucks is when cold coffee really started exploding. Starbucks introduced cold brew in 2014 with a fast follow in 2015. They launched the Nitro cold brew. And it was. And I think what they do so brilliantly, it wasn't a beverage, it was a platform. They didn't look at it as, like, an item. It's like, how do we create a full platform around, you know, cold brew and nitro cold brew? And it was just fascinating to watch the massive shift from hot to cold as people were discovering. And I think that's just so beautiful about that platform. It's so big and like, you paint by numbers. It's like, wow. And like, for myself, like, I was always a hot coffee drinker, and when I had cold brew for the first time, you know, on a consistent basis was, you know, during, you know, 2014 when Starbucks had launched cold brew. And I don't even know when it happened. But eventually what went from being my occasional second cup or third cup started becoming my only cup. And it's like there was something about the drinking experience around cold brew or nitro cold brew that was just so much more enjoyable that, like, I found myself being only a cold drinker. And then, like, all of a sudden you're like. But like, it's really hard to do a high quality cold brew or a nitro cold brew or even, like, ice latte or anything like that. And if in a big organization like Starbucks, it's a manual kind of imperfect process, what happens when you leave the greatest coffee shop in the world? What's it like for everybody else? And that was like, kind of like this, like, insight. It's like, there's got to be a better way.

[Michael Chernow]

So when. So the. The inspo, like, what was the first of all? You know what I would love? If you can sort of distinguish the difference between a cold brew and a nitro cold brew. Just so for the people that don't know.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah. You know what I hate about the word nitro cold brew is the word nitro. No, really, it, like, has this, like, sound, like, it's like aggressive. Yeah. It's like nitro. It feels like a muscle car.

[Michael Chernow]

Right.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

And actually, when you infuse coffee with nitrogen, it makes the beverage sweet and creamy. Totally. And it's like, it's like silky. It's like. It's like a decadent dessert.

[Michael Chernow]

That's why I only use the nitro setting on my cream.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Right. It's like.

[Michael Chernow]

I mean, I like my wife, actually. She'll use espresso because she loves the lattes and stuff. And so she'll. She has like a little coffee. She has a milk froth or whatever. I personally. You don't need any sugar. You don't need any milk. You don't need any sweetener. The nitro. Cold brew that comes out of the cumulus is like. You get like an inch head on it.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's crazy.

[Michael Chernow]

It's amazing.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah, it's incredible. We work so long on that head. Like, like, literally, like, probably like, I don't know, I would say two and a half years to get that, like, perfect cream. But it's like, you see, you've experienced it. It's creamy, it's sweet. And like, the name, like, I wish I could like, rebrand it, but like, whatever you can. Why don't you call it the nitra. The nitro something. So, but like the. So what happens is, is that when you infuse nitrogen into coffee, right? The nitrogen bubble is really, really tiny and very strong. When you think about, like a carbonated beverage, like a soda or something like that, you know, CO2, that's like when you're blowing bubbles, a big bubble. It looks beautiful, but it pops quicker and the little bubble lasts longer. So nitrogen makes these little, little, little, little tiny, like microscopic bubbles. So because that's the case, they last longer. And when you stretch coffee and you create like kind of that scaffold around those bubbles with the coffee, and you open it up with that air. I know it sounds like, technical, but it's like really like microns how it's happening. It creates that sweet and creamy experience that you have on the tongue. And if you do it well, it lasts, and then it's effervescent and it like, stays through the beverage. When. And if you don't do that, it's kind of like a regular cold brew is an amazing cup of coffee. But like I like to say, you know, with cumulus, like, and you experience that, like, if you could have nitro, it's like, imagine paying for an economy seat ticket. And we offer you business class with no extra charge. Like, basically it like, are you ever gonna walk past the first section to go to the back of the plane? It's not gonna happen, right?

[Michael Chernow]

What? So, okay, so I love. I love talking with entrepreneurs because, you know, what you're doing is very, very hard, right? I mean, there's. There's. There's a lot of competition in the world of coffee and the, the hardware business that you're in. There's dinosaurs out there, right, that, like. I mean, there's a Bazillion boutique coffee companies, that's one thing. But you're like stepping in with like the dinosaurs that have been around forever and ever. The coffee making, coffee maker businesses, coffee maker companies, you know, countertop appliance companies. What you're doing is really hard or crazy or. But awesome. But yes. So like I want to.

[Unknown]

When did the business launched?

[Michael Chernow]

When.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

So we like officially launch kind of like is a multiple points consumer facing.

[Michael Chernow]

Made available to.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Made available to customers was just for holiday last year in 24. So a few months ago the company started or the idea started four years earlier than that. So late 2018 is kind of like when we started tinkering. So it's been a journey.

[Michael Chernow]

And what does it feel like right now?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Okay, it's like drinking from a fire hose. I was texting with a friend from Brazil today and it's been a while since we've communicated and he's like, what happened to you? You fell off the map. I'm like just building and like it's like it takes every minute. You got to be like really dialed in and focused and, and this is a business friend. It's not like a social friend. I mean a social friend as well, but like even like kind of like that, like chit chat, business networking, schmooze, whatever. No time for it. It's like every second just like dialed in super tight. And like, you know, you're the old expression about building airplane as you fly. It is like legitimately like what this is about. Like, you know, there are certain things that, you know, different entrepreneurs, I think experience differently. It depends really the stage and kind of like their previous experiences first. I don't know how first time entrepreneurs, first time like kids out of school do it. You know, this isn't my first rodeo and like, you know, I've been in the active, active in the business community for a little bit and it's extremely hard. I just imagine if like what would have happened had I not had that experience, I wouldn't have learned lessons from other things, how challenging it is. So it's like I have like deep respect for entrepreneurs and we, you know, there's a lot of crazy out there, but in a good way, right? Like change makers.

[Michael Chernow]

What, what are, what kind of boundaries? I mean, I know you're, you're fresh out the gate, right? So it's, it's hard to have. I mean, you're kind of at the mercy of like the, the, the velocity of the business right now. But this is the Creatures of Habit podcast and we, we like to talk about habits, rituals and routines. Yep. And sometimes we don't get there. Sometimes, you know, the whole podcast is about habits, rituals and routines. But it's, it's. As an entrepreneur now, in it for a while and have experience and have been around the block a bit and understand that, like, no matter how you slice it, it's going to be hard. What is? What is. Do you have a beginning and end to your day?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yes. Yes. It's very short, the time in between the beginning and end. Like, there's many times when the end is in the AM and beginning is a few hours after that. But definitely have a beginning and end and definitely try to create space for other things as well. Weekends especially. I think I'm fortunate that culturally I'm an observant Jew. And therefore the weekends, you know, phones off, you know, computers down and family time, you know, so, you know, being disconnected every single week for, you know, a full day is God sent. And, you know, that really, that's refreshing. So I think that there's definitely. But, you know, I think my mind is probably racing a majority of the time, but like, you know, the ability to kind of like, fence off and like, do other things is really important. To break it up and stop and come back to it. Sometimes you feel like you need to continue. You must. You have to see this to the end. Whatever problem you're solving or opportunity you're chasing, you got to get to the end. You got to get to the end. And that momentum. Let me just keep on going, keep on going, keep on going. But something, you just stop and come back to it, you know, it's like fresh.

[Michael Chernow]

So have you always thought entrepreneurially?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Since you were a kid?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

You know, I don't like the kid part. Like, I don't remember as much. Like, I don't know, like I was just a kid, you know, baseball, bike riding, you know, I collected business cards with my friend. Like, like dumb stuff like that. You know, I just, I think, I don't think there was like, I wasn't like this entrepreneurial kid that was, you know, creat this business or that business. That wasn't. That wasn't my thing. But like, I guess it was. It's a combination of like curiosity and creativity. I would say is like kind of like my oxygen. Those two things.

[Michael Chernow]

And what was the first business you ever created and. Or like the, the job that you realized that you were going to be an entrepreneur in?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Oh, the, the insight for me, early on in My journey was probably when I was still in school. And I was. At that time I was young and I was also married and we had two children. And I was still in a. I was still in a Talmudic seminary in New Jersey. And we were struggling to make ends meet, obviously, you know, in school and everything like that. And the school had a program which allowed for students in the school to go like once a week to give classes and earn a little stipend doing that. And it was very hard to get into this program. And they paid a grand total of $75 a week for this. But, like, you know, I finally. I volunteered to go or I offered. I was so, like, interested in doing it or desperate that there was. The school was about 75 miles from the city and there was a new site opening up in Manhattan. And I was like, I volunteered. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna crack that market. I'm gonna go, you know, give classes over there. And it was that. It was like a whole sequence of events. But ultimately I went from going, doing that one class that the school was giving out to do, to actually create this whole roster of one on one kind of coaching and studying with, you know, professionals and people who have been successful, who wanted to connect and learn more about their Jewish roots. So, like, I took this opportunity to go once a week for an hour to teach, and I created it. At the end, I was doing it for two full days. And like, that was unique. I was like, Maybe there were 300 of us doing this, and I was the only person that like, took it from something in its box and said, like, no, like, let me see what I could do with this. And that was like, kind of like my first, like, huh, you know, there's something here.

[Michael Chernow]

And so. And that ultimately became the sheets kind of business.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I had met somebody who wanted to study and learn more about his Jewish roots. And he had a textile business. And his business was raw fabric, raw material.

[Michael Chernow]

And in the garment industry.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It was non specific to garment. It could have been like industrial fabrics, anything, like any, like, any kind of fabric. Like this curtain hanging behind us or whatever, you know, like could be for like sofa makers or automobile makers or things like that. And his company, all they did was like, trade raw material. So like, literally, like broker from like, factories like in India, China, Pakistan, Indonesia, container loads to like, big industrial companies here in the US and like, he had offered me a job. He was an elder gentleman and like, you know, pretty successful. And like, no, nobody in the business to really like, kind of like nurture, to help the company continue to grow. And he offered me a job and I was like, you know, forget business school, forget law school. I'm going to go into the shmata business. And yeah, so it kind of like evolved and led to that. Wow. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

I assume there's been some, some awesome wins and some failures.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Always. Always.

[Michael Chernow]

Let's talk about a moment along your journey where you thought it was all over, where you just, you, you, you, you, you had made either a mistake or a bad decision or what you thought might have been a good decision and it just didn't work out. Let's talk about a failure that you had that's a standout.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I think the, I think for me a big failure was in the linen business. I was kind of like fascinated by this idea that we were selling to all these mass big retailers, like, you name it, like companies that don't exist anymore, like Kmart and you know, people like that and thousands and thousands of doors as we call it in the industry. And yet I was, I was very proud. We weren't paying any rent and we weren't paying associates and yet like we had all these people doing this work for us and selling our product and everything like that. And then like kind of got that itch and said, you know what? No, I want to get closer to the customer. I want to, I don't have a brand. I want to like, I want them to know I want to have that relationship. And I think that the, the realization of. And how challenging that was and the timing was probably pretty bad. It was like, oh, wait, when it was like, oh, it was a tough time. And then really stepping into something at not understanding what it would take was like this like investing a lot of time and energy and it's just not tracking. And that was a new feeling for me. It was probably the first time that at like with any meaningful amount of effort or investment, it kind of like it wasn't going, it wasn't going to happen. It wasn't happening. And it was like, you know, and you come, you face that decision, you're like, okay, do I call it or do I keep on going? And like, you know, and then you look back, it's like, did I wait too long to call it? Was it, you know, should I have called it earlier, etc. Etc. And I think that was like a, it was a, it wasn't a fatalistic kind of like business fatalistic moment. Like company was fine. But like, I think from a energy and time and expect self expectation and having that failure was like, it was definitely humbling and you know, just like this opportunity to reflect and like that not everything, a not everything is in your control. And number two is that don't hide behind the fact that not everything's in your control and really reflect about and be truthful to yourself and about what you didn't do. Right. Or what signals did you blow past that. Like you could have like, you know, I could have done that a little differently and like, you know, I was like, I made that decision with momentum but not with clarity, right?

[Michael Chernow]

And like one of the things that I like to think about in making business decisions and I heard this a long time ago and whenever I'm in indecision in business, I always ask myself this question now, are you procrastinating the truth like Michael, are you procrastinating the truth right now? I love that, you know, because like the truth is always going to be a plus sign, right? Like just is right.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's right in front of you.

[Michael Chernow]

It's, it's always going to be a positive no matter how you slice it. Even if it hurts, it sucks. Brutal. At the end of the day, the closer you get to the truth, the more success you'll have, right? Because it's the truth. And, and so I always, I always ask myself like, dude, are you procrastinating the truth right now? Let's really look at that.

[Unknown]

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[Michael Chernow]

Back to the pod. Let's talk about how you celebrate the wins. Do you celebrate the wins?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Really? One of the most powerful messages that resonated with me that I experienced was a meeting once at Starbucks with Howard. And it was a small gathering of leaders. And Howard was talking in a very open and vulnerable way. And this was like, I don't know, maybe 20, 15, 16. I don't remember the year, but at this time, 33,000 stores, maybe 25, 26 billion in revenue. Massive company. And Howard's getting emotional, and it's almost like he's tearing up, leaning in, listening, like, what's going on here? And he says something and he says, you know, the world would be okay tomorrow without Starbucks. We have to go there every single minute and earn our business. And we've worked so hard for this, and we got it tomorrow. Go out and start again and earn it again. And he was like, I'm like, thinking to myself, first of all, wow, what a powerful message. But then also thinking to myself is like, are you kidding me? Like, you're everywhere. We're in 78 countries at that time, right? Like, it's ubiquitous, right? And everybody like, like, yeah. So even if things aren't going great, it's like a massively successful company by every measure. And here was the man who built it and thought about it with genuine fright that it's going to disappear tomorrow. The world could continue fine without Starbucks. And it was like that left such an impression on me and articulated, like, a feeling that I had inside. It's that the satisfaction you get out of wins, right? What are you really celebrating and does it carry forward? And for me, I think that the satisfaction I get or the celebration that I have is the reaffirmation of the. Of the insight or the thought that I had early on and was able to get it there. I was like, that. That moment. That's the. That's the. That's like kind of the gratification, I think, that is like, you know, like, take Cumulus. We're very young. But I wasn't joking when I said at the beginning, like, hearing you talk about your and your wife's experience with cumulus for the last three or four months. I don't know you. We're just meeting now for the first time, and yet I started Cumulus with this idea that this is something that's important and people need it and it's going to make a meaningful impact in their lives. And now I'm sitting across from you, and you're telling me that exact thing. I go right for that nitro. You think about it, and it's part of your life. It's part of your wife's life. It's part of your routine. I earned a place in your life. That was the original thesis. I don't want to just sell a product. I want to be part of your experience. And when you give. When you gave me that feedback, I'm good. It's that unlocking and realizing that what I dreamed of and what I set out to do is manifesting itself one person at a time, one cumulus at a time. That's like, you know, that's such a big feeling. It's huge. It's huge. It's like bigger than a number.

[Michael Chernow]

I. I know that feeling. You know, I. It's when somebody, you know, it's one thing you have. You know, I was in the retail. I was in the restaurant business for a long time, right? And I had a bunch of restaurants in New York. And at one point, still to this day, I mean, the meatball shop made a big splash on New York City.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

That was huge.

[Michael Chernow]

It was. It was huge. It was. And. And, you know, you walk into any room kind of anywhere where there's like a culture. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, Austin, Texas, you know, London, like, and you mentioned, you know, in 2012, two years after the meatball shop launch. You mentioned meatball shop. And people turn around.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Of course, everybody knew it, right?

[Michael Chernow]

And. And. But it's a place where people come to. It's a place where people come to.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

They crave and they crave and they.

[Michael Chernow]

Crave, and they want to be there. They want to come to it. And it was. It was incredible. I mean, I, like meatball shop is, you know, holds a dear place in my heart. But now with creatures of habit and with cumulus, people have brought you into their home. It's different experience, right? Like, you become part of the fabric of their lives. It's a very different experience. I see my cumulus 14, 15, 30 times a day.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

You know what I mean?

[Michael Chernow]

I walk by it. Every time I walk past my kitchen, I see it.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's right there. Boom, there it is.

[Michael Chernow]

Creatures that have. At meal one, we have thousands of people that eat it every day. It's lined in their pantry. You know, it's a different kind of experience. And so I love when you mention that, you know, I, I. What? The Howard story, the story of, you know, I don't agree with that. I think he's, I think he's underestimating Starbucks. I don't think the world would be okay tomorrow if Starbucks went away. I think it'd be a lot of.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

A long recovery period.

[Michael Chernow]

People would be pissed.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

A lot of people would be pissed.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, like, there are people that live by those.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Of course they do.

[Michael Chernow]

There's not a single, you know, they created a Frappuccino, man. You know, like, it's, it's a lot of.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's, it's, it's.

[Michael Chernow]

It's wild. I ask you that question about, you know, how do you celebrate? Do you celebrate? Because I do find it hard as a creative human that has the audacity to think that an idea that they had in their. In between their two ears would get people excited to want to spend money on it. Not just spend money on it, but, like, subscribe to.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Become evangelists.

[Michael Chernow]

Become evangelists. At the end, you got a lot of audacity, right? You just do. And, and, and also, not only is it audacious, but it's like, there's got to be a level of confidence that you can just from an idea, a thought. You had a thought. This is the beauty of entrepreneurial entrepreneurship. You have a thought and, you know, it starts sitting in a chair or walking down the sidewalk or, you know, after a conversation, you're like that you've.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Turned into something tangible.

[Michael Chernow]

Not only tangible, but it's sitting on people's countertops, right? It's real. It's, it's, it's powerful. And I think it's so. And I think it's wonderful, and it's beautiful. And that's why I, I love, I love entrepreneurs. Because, you know, not only is it, is it, is it crazy to think that, you know, whatever this idea that you had could come to fruition and you can see it out in the wild, but, but the pain that you have to go through to get there, right? Like, it's very difficult, but it's not pain, right?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's not pain.

[Michael Chernow]

It's. It's. Well, I think for me, I'm a, I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely obsessed with it. And I would imagine, you Are, too. But I would say there are moments where it is I. When I feel, you know, you know, how many times with creatures of habit, I thought we were gonna have to.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Go out of business, I can't even imagine. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Just the amount of times where I'm, like, looking at the bank account and.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I'm like, okay, now what?

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, like, how are we gonna get through this one? And, you know, real fear, Full central nervous system just lit up like a Christmas tree just floating above my desk, being like, oh, what? How am I gonna get through this? And. And so I would say that that's pretty damn close. Emotional like. Like pain for me.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

But let me ask you, after that pain, did that usually unlock an amazing insight? Always. Right.

[Michael Chernow]

Yes.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

If you. So if you, like, embrace that pain or that, that, like, what comes after. That's.

[Michael Chernow]

That's the. That is, in my opinion, you know, what I always say, and I believe it to be true, is most people quit. Right? Most people quit.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Endurance is a common or one of the most common denominators in successful entrepreneurs. They're willing to go the distance and willing to deal with the, you know, sort of abnormal level of stress and anxiety that come with launching a business.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I'm very comfortable. And Gray, you got to be very comfortable not knowing.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. And asking for a lot of freaking help too. Right.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Like, I think, well, I got a good tip today. Right.

[Michael Chernow]

Tell me.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Just the physical mailers, I'm like, you know, they're great. I'm. I'm into that.

[Michael Chernow]

And I think, especially for your business, too, you know, tell everybody what the business is. Exactly.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

So sure. Cumulus is a single serve, on demand, cold brew, nitro, cold brew, and cold espresso machine that makes those beverages. So the cold brew, which is normally a very long process to make, you're able to get these beverages just by the push of a button, perfectly chilled every single time in under a minute. And it's, you know, the ink up quality is, like, better than a cafe. We, like, you know, we're humbled by that. Those aren't my words. It's actually Howard's words, so I'll take it from him. And it's. We have a beautiful line of fantastic coffee that has been crafted for cold. So Cumulus, as a company, we didn't just say, hey, let's make cold coffee. We took a step back and we said, let's bring everything beautiful and the rich heritage of coffee, but let's start with cold. So we cup. It's called cupping. You know, when we get the, from the trees, the cherries, and we cup for cold. Today I just did that for a new, beautiful coffee that we're going to be releasing and tasting different variations, different roasts on it and everything. So a lot of intentionality around cold. So if somebody craves a cup of cold brew, a nitro. Cold brew, if they didn't have it, like, you know what it does, it's transformative. Or if you want a ice latte or a espresso martini, right. You got to start with a cold espresso shot. And that's, that's cumulus. I think we're the only people in the world that make a cold espresso shot.

[Michael Chernow]

Wow, that's so cool. And Howard put his stamp of approval on it.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah, he's an investor as well. Very cool.

[Michael Chernow]

That's awesome. I just found out someone that's very close to him lives very close to me in my area upstate, where I live. I, I getting into the mind of people like you. Who.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

You.

[Michael Chernow]

You, you. What? You, you know, you did something really great.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Thank you.

[Michael Chernow]

It's great.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Thanks.

[Michael Chernow]

Not good. Like, and I'm not just saying that because you're here. Like, I use the thing every day. I love it, you know.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Thank you.

[Michael Chernow]

It's great. And do you have a. Do you have like a morning routine that you, that you like to stick to?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Oh, quite so.

[Michael Chernow]

I'd love to hear it.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah. It now involves cumulus. It took a while. It took a while. For years it was a hot espresso shop, but now it's a cold cumulus. But my morning routine is. I like to, in my mind, I get up earlier than I think I do. I like to think that I'm getting up like around 5:30. I realistically, I'm close to like 5:45, 5:50, you know, sneak out of the room, want to wake anybody. And my routine is pretty compact. In the morning, I'm usually out of the house within 10 minutes, and I have this quick routine where I just grab my first cumulus and I run out. I go early to prayers every morning at 6am and I do that on my way to work. So I stop at the synagogue and I pray. And then on my drive in, I take time listening to and I study the Talmud. And the Talmud is this really compelling piece of work that really challenges my mind. So by the time 7, 7:15, 7:30 in the morning, I've spent like about a half hour at prayers. And then in my drive in, really waking and stimulating my mind. With challenging thoughts and, you know, complex problems that the Talmud discusses. And then I'm ready to conquer the day. And, like, it's 7:30 and I'm on my way into the city and I'm good to go.

[Michael Chernow]

Do you guys have an office in the city?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah, we're right over in Bryant park, just a few blocks away from here. Oh, cool. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

So I had a really interesting experience that I shared about on social media last week. I. I've been diving deep into breath work. I don't know if you have any experience with breath work.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

No, tell me. As you said, I just took a deep breath.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, I saw that. So breath work, there's. There's many different modalities and techniques in breath work, but I was introduced to this breathwork style about just under two years ago and is for me, arguably the most impactful, powerful, therapeutic, unearthing I've ever experienced. What do you do? You breathe. You. So you do it with a practitioner. I have a coach. And you lie down on your back, you put an eye mask on or something to cover your eyes so you can fully immerse into the breath. And it's a guided experience. It's about 30 minutes.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Chernow]

And it's all mouth breathing, and it's circular breathing for 30 minutes straight. So it's like into the stomach like this. It basically looks like this. And you do that for 30 minutes into the stomach, into the chest, out the mouth, all mouth breathing.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's like exercise.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, it's work. It's called breath work. Right. It's like. It's actual work. And it is. What. What's happened in the. In these breath work sessions for me has been monumental. I had my coach actually with me about a week and a half ago. He came to my house upstate and he spent two days with me. So we can do really focused, deep breath work. Intentional not only breath work, but breath work was a part of it. And I'm Jewish, and I. In this breath work, so many things have surfaced in the breathwork for me from my past that I just had never really looked at or didn't know to look at. But what came up for me in this last breathwork session was just an overwhelming amount of shame that I didn't know. I knew that I knew it was there, but I didn't know how significant it was. And when I was a kid growing up in New York in the city, I went to public school, there were not a lot of Jewish kids, and. And we played hockey at this park on the east side. And there was a goalie, an older man. He was in. We were kids, 12, you know, 11, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. And there was this older guy in his probably 30s that would play hockey on the weekends and he would show up with goalie pads. He only played goalie. His name was Pete and he was a white supremacist. And he had swastikas on his goalie pads. And he would. He would, you know, rant all sorts of anti Semitic things. And I was terrified to be Jewish. Terrified. I was so scared. I hadn't thought about this in years. And it just showed up in this.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Breath work last week. Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

Last week. And it made me. It scared me so much to be Jewish that now my father's. My father's not technically Jewish. My mother is Jewish, so I'm Jewish. And I used to hide behind the fact that my father was Italian. My father's mother is from Sicily. Italian. And I used to be. I was. For years, I was scared to be Jewish because these other kids would also make fun of Jews.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Right.

[Michael Chernow]

And it just. It left me with this crazy amount of shame. And I didn't know it. And I posted on social media. I. We did this breath work and it was. And it came to the surface.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Wow. Just hit.

[Michael Chernow]

You just hit me, huh? Emotional explosion.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

Just hysterical, guttural emotion. And that's what this breath work does, by the way. It's insane.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Scary.

[Michael Chernow]

It's scary. It's crazy.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I don't know if I want to do it.

[Michael Chernow]

You should do it.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

I'm scared.

[Michael Chernow]

But. And so I was like, I have to. I have to share about this. I have to share about this. I'm Jewish and proud.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Nice to be Jewish.

[Michael Chernow]

Why would I be ashamed of who I am? Why would I let some idiot, Pete de Goalie, Pete the goalie, like, plant this thing? That scared me for most of my life. I mean, now when I think back on it, the fear that I had going to play hockey was. Was numbing because I was afraid that. I mean, I was a little kid. I was probably. I probably started playing hockey at that park when I was 10, 11 years old.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Chernow]

And I was afraid that he was gonna, like, I don't know, you know, you know, doing the whole thing.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. Really scary. And the other kids would laugh about it. So, you know, you. You mentioned the synagogue and the Talmud and I, you know, and I've been listening to this guy who. Modest Yahoo. Do you know who that is?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah, the singer. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

So I've been listening to Modest Yahoo talk about this stuff, and it was just.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

He's been on a journey.

[Michael Chernow]

He's been on a journey. Totally.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

It just sort of, like, inspired me. It was interesting how it all happened together. I had this crazy sort of breathwork experience, and then I was listening to this random podcast with Modest Yahoo. And I was like, okay, this is God.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

And now a pod. And now in this podcast, a guy with a yarmulke walks in. Yeah, it's just, you know, like, not your everyday occurrence.

[Michael Chernow]

This is what's happening right now. Dude, this has been so much fun to have you on the podcast.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Thank you.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, and I think you got great energy. Thank you, man. So do you. As soon as I saw you, I was like, we're going to have a great conversation. I just knew it. And for the. For the people listening, how could they. What would be the best way to engage with either you or your business? What would be the greatest way to follow the journey and potentially experience Cumulus?

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

It's a cliche to say Instagram.

[Michael Chernow]

No, that's the.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Say, that's. That's the. I think Cumulus is a way to stay close and learn. We try to share a lot about, you know, outside of just running the e commerce business, but share and educate at our website@cumulus coffee.com and. And of course, listen to your podcast. Right. Like, you know, a banner moment for Cumulus.

[Michael Chernow]

Is there. Is there. Is there a retail play in the.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Works, I'm assuming, or it's not at the current moment, I think that, you know, there's a big. We are more and more getting Cumulus into different environments outside of the home. So people, whether they're going to, you know, maybe in their office, there'll be a Cumulus or maybe at the hotel they're staying at or a restaurant that they're visiting. So more of that is coming. So if somebody's not ready to take the plunge and, you know, bring Cumulus and dedicate the counter space like you have in your home, you know, there'll be more and more ways to experience and participate in Cumulus as time goes on, but retail for now is. We're gonna leave that to Starbucks.

[Michael Chernow]

Copy that, Mesh. What a good combo, man. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Of course. It was great to meet you.

[Michael Chernow]

Awesome.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

Thank you.

[Michael Chernow]

So another great podcast in the books. I know you loved that one. I love having entrepreneurs on the podcast to talk about the journeys of building, creating, stumbling, getting back up fighting the good fight on a daily basis. It always is inspiring to me and I know inspiring to you. That's why you guys tune in. Thank you so much for listening to this whole podcast. If you really enjoyed this one, it would mean the world to me if you shared it. Sharing the podcast is the rent. I ask you to pay for listening to the podcast. And if you are feeling unbelievably generous, like unbelievably generous, writing us a five star review would be primo. Appreciate that. I really would Hit subscribe. Don't miss an episode until the next one, y'.

[Meshulam (Mesh) Shapiro]

All.

[Michael Chernow]

Peace.