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- [00:00]
A
I guess the question is, what do we want to feel good for? What do you want to feel good for?
- [00:05]
B
The priority for me is having the best life with my wife and kids.
- [00:07]
A
Life? Yeah. You want to feel good for life. Do you just want to feel good for going to the gym for 30 minutes? Right. That may be a small component of it. But the point is not to feel good in the gym.
- [00:20]
B
Be good at life.
- [00:21]
A
The point is to be good at life. That is it. And since it's bigger than just the physical, the there has to be this thought process of. That's my key question is, which I don't. Which you cannot deny. Do you deserve to feel good?
- [00:34]
B
Absolutely.
- [00:35]
A
Then let's figure out the best way to do that. And if you think it's just for workouts, which again, men's fitness and men's wellness has just been grounded in the workouts, you're not going to make it. You're not going to make it. It's not about running the fastest marathon time. Sure. But if we want to get you there, we want you to feel good. It's about that as men, as we get older, as the world changes, as there's things that are outside of our control as humans, the cha that's associated with life and we know that this life is going to end. The whole point is to feel good right now.
- [01:07]
B
I'm Michael Chernow and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast. Our habits will make us or break us. It's just that simple. I've lived on both sides of the tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing some of the most inspiring, motivating and high performing human humans I've encountered to share their daily habits, routines and rituals that help them stay on top of their game and ultimately happy. So sit back, relax, and pay attention because what you hear over the next 30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life.
- [01:49]
A
Let's go.
- [01:52]
B
So over the last like 10, 15 ish years, I feel like more mainstream humans have been training like professional athletes.
- [02:07]
A
Okay.
- [02:07]
B
And that's like, and. Or trying to train like professional athletes.
- [02:12]
A
Yeah. It's a good addition of try trying.
- [02:14]
B
To train like professional athletes. And it's become like a like, who can train harder thing.
- [02:22]
A
Sure.
- [02:22]
B
What are the diminishing returns on that? Like over training? We all know is like, works adversely.
- [02:30]
A
Right? Sure.
- [02:31]
B
So I just think like, with fitness influencing.
- [02:35]
A
Yes.
- [02:36]
B
When does it become unhealthy?
- [02:37]
A
I mean, That's a great question. I think it's multifaceted. Recently, I guess it was Scotty Scheffler. He gave a really good press conference talking about how even though he's at the top of his game, there was so much more to life and that winning is fleeting. But it was about being a family man, it was about being a good husband, it was about taking care of his kids and, and he had a really good like 5 minute diatribe about it. When we talk about diminishing returns as it relates to kind of like this fitness influencer lifestyle, I think for a lot of people they're doing it because they're missing a deeper intrinsic meaning. And this is coming from somebody who's number one in the world in golf. Now we have these people who are trying to quote, unquote, train. Like professional athletes are searching for something within the fitness scene. They're not making tens to hundreds of million dollars. I think the diminishing returns is this more esoteric, which is a slight result of the increased secularism within society or like lack of kind of building one's own morals and values. So a lot of us are kind of punishing the body because we're searching for something deeper now as it relates straight from a physical standpoint. It's a lot of people. Recovery of course is getting bigger, but a lot of people don't know how to properly program. And what has happened and even the past 10 years. When I first started out, programming was basically non existent as related to good structure. Now people are understanding, you know, microcycle, mesocycle, macro cycle goals, all that now with quantified self and wearables starting to understand recovery a little bit more and stuff like this. But the diminishing returns are. The goal should be to feel better at life. Like life is our sport, right? Like, so the thought process is like, why are people actually doing this? And I think from like a philosophical approach, like how people train teaches us a lot about our current stance and culture. And people are searching for control and they're driving to this thing of like running, run, club culture, working out all this stuff because they're trying to figure out the better value that they have inside. And Wall Street Journal just had a really interesting article about Gen Z and millennials listing the things that are most important to them. They gave them five options. Health was number one, wealth was number five, and then strategic relationship management filled out two, three and four. Whether that's with themselves, family, significant other, that says a lot. And those things are very Strongly connected. So I know that went a little bit, probably left slightly, but yeah, over training is always a thing and people need to be able to get better at that. But I'm very interested into this thought process of what are people searching for? Like, why is this at this point in time, in a political arena, cultural arena, all this different stuff. There's a real reason why people are working out harder. And I think the other shoe is eventually going to drop because you're not gonna. You're not gonna find salvation on the treadmill, you're not gonna find salvation on the track. But it can push you to understand, in my opinion, deeper values. So there, of course there is benefits to like physical fitness, but yeah, don't over train. Make sure you're sleeping, make sure you're eating. I think a lot of people are hiding orthorexia, essentially and very restrictive, healthy habits around, through fitness. And yeah, just want to make sure though it's grounded in like holistic, not as a kitschy word, but like true holism as it relates to yourself as a, as a complete person.
- [05:57]
B
I think I. So my story is, you know, I was a drug addict and I found fitness, right? And fitness truly saved my life. It just did, you know, Unfortunately, I have not successfully found a balance, right. Because I found solace. I really did find solace in fitness.
- [06:24]
A
What do you mean a balance? A balance in what?
- [06:26]
B
A balance in being comfortable with spending as much time on mobility and recovery, if not more than I do on actual fitness. And so my body has absolutely 100% suffered for that.
- [06:36]
A
Can I ask you a question? Yes. Why do you separate those things? Why don't you consider, like out of curiosity, why isn't recovery and mobility and all that part? Why don't you just consider it fitness?
- [06:48]
B
I should consider it fitness? I should consider it fitness. And, you know, I've certainly gotten better at it. I mean, I've had no choice. I've gotten better at it. But I do think that it would be really powerful to hear your thought on that piece, right? That and people like me and I, and I, and I, and I, and I say people like me because a.
- [07:08]
A
Lot of the, A lot of the.
- [07:09]
B
Dudes that I've associated with over the. Whatever it is, the last five, 10 years, go hard, right? Go super hard. And you know, I've been to these events and, you know, it's all about going hard. And it's not. There's. There's no time for, hey, like, let's actually, like, let's warm up into this. Like, you know, like, if I go to try to sprint right now and I just go sprint, I. My friend am in trouble.
- [07:32]
A
Yeah, she's gonna pop.
- [07:33]
B
That's it. I'm in trouble. Right. And so I have to start thinking that way. And I think it would be great for someone like you, who's a true expert, basically top of their game in. In terms of guiding people through this process in way more of a. Almost in a mental, emotional way. You know, like when I hear you talk on. On other podcasts, just in general, like, you, you sort of communicate this thing, fitness, not as a, hey, this is the way that you are going to get in the best shape of your life. It's more of a. This is a lifestyle that you need to consider all aspects of.
- [08:09]
A
Yeah, yeah. So you raised a few good things, like just taking it from first, going back to the rise of the athlete. And one of my beliefs is that all innovations come from the performance world first. When you look at performance, you look at how athletes train, basically it's kind of like a Ferrari, right? You don't want it to break down. So the maintenance is heavy. The amount that they're warming up, the amount that they're sleeping, the amount that they're investing in different technologies, but the amount that they're taking care of their body outside of that specific arena. So when they have to go, they'll go. But for whatever reason, and it's definitely changing. Got better. But for whatever reason, we're overlooking through a true performance lens, what you have to do for performance is not always best for health. So you have to then also do the things to maintain your health while of course, overall working on your fitness. A very good example is that NBA players have to be able to jump high, but because of that, they often have very tight ankles. So they then will make sure that they have enough range of motion in their ankles, but don't make them too flexible. So they still keep their performance, but their health and their injury risks is still mitigated. But they have tighter ankles in the general population. So this thought process is like the warmup and a cool down and all these things are actually part of the workout. So you can go. The thing of just hopping right into it is just. It just doesn't make sense because that's not how an athlete would train. So if we want to train like athletes, then we have to look at all the total dimensions of what they're doing for their sport. And the workout is actually it's. While it is important and in a catalyst, it's all the things that they do around it to make sure that workout goes well. Because if you are not, it's not even just of course, the warmup before the workout, but of course the things outside of it. If you're not doing those right, then the value get out of your workout won't be as high because you can't hit the capacities that you need. So a lot of their stuff is data driven, right? Power outputs, force plates, all this stuff, they cannot hit those numbers unless they take care of their body. So this thought process of just going, going, going doesn't make sense because essentially it's like junk miles, right. You're just putting wear and tear on the engine for no reason and then you're not making sure you do the upkeep outside of it.
- [10:21]
B
So if your average person that likes to train gets, let's just say generously, an hour and a half, five, six days a week to get in there and do it right?
- [10:32]
A
Yeah.
- [10:33]
B
What percentage of that workout or what percentage of that time dedicated to their fitness protocol would you allocate for them to spend on warm up, cool down and or mobility?
- [10:45]
A
So there's a couple different ways to look at it. You look at time to train, time to rot, and then you also. I'm a big believer in polarized training. So I think for most people like you take a high, low approach. You have your high intensity sessions and you have your low intensity sessions that are really centered around recovery. Basically everybody's, you know, in the zone two world right now. But when it relates to standard, okay, how do I feel? Good mobility is dose dependent. Mobility is basically, can I work through ranges of motion with control? So a combination of flexibility and strength. So then essentially, so the thought process is best. You have to floss the tissues and keep that healthy. A lot of mobility work you don't necessarily need to do in the gym. And I'll explain this in a second, but mobility is a little bit. Every day goes a long way. So if you are stretching five to 10 minutes in the morning or the evening, working on your mobility, that will basically what does it do? It keeps your brain plastic used to ranges of motion. For some people, it might reduce muscle soreness, also help them sleep better, that type of thing. So if you don't like to do it as part of your warmup or you're pressed for time, just do it in the morning or the evening. Just basic stretches that'll help you maintain your ranges of motion. You don't need to be overly flexible. Especially guys, they often hate to stretch. I just went on a yoga retreat to Greece with my brother. He never has done yoga. He did yoga for a week. It was so funny. But he felt great after. But his thought process is that is one way to get around it. Now, when we're talking about in the gym, you can naturally have it, of course, as part of your warmup. So for me, what I do, an easy way to think about it is you basically want to have a general prep. So the one way to go about it is just want blood flow through the body. So general prep, that means get on a treadmill or bike, whatever, five to 10 minutes. Now you have the blood flow start going. Then easy foam roll. You can foam roll, full body foam roll, five minutes or so, really quick.
- [12:35]
B
So you think foam roll is a modality that you really like?
- [12:40]
A
Foam roll is a modality that I like because it does two things, allows you to drop. I think you have to mentally drop in and feeling that compression and then doing it, right? And then getting awareness to your body. From a research standpoint, what is it most likely to do? It short term increases ranges of motion, right? So then from there, some research hints. So then from there, you just then go into your dynamic warmups, full body dynamic warmups, that type of thing. I'm a big believer in activating the core first and a little grip strength, because there's a thought process. If you get stable through the core, then that helps improve your stability and then mobility through your lower.
- [13:15]
B
And what movements do you like just for that core?
- [13:17]
A
So basically, thought process is high irritation or whatever it's called. But that thought process is hold the plank very hard for 15 seconds, drive through the ground, drive the elbows back, really activate that core. Hold a boat pose right to 10, 15 seconds, nice and long, very intensely, really activate through that core. And then from there you could. And then go into, say, hip circles, dynamic leg swings, whatever, and then just superset that a couple times. So Core Exercise 3, Dynamic Warmup moves. Core Exercise 3, Dynamic Warmup Moves. Core Exercise 3, Dynamic WarmUp moves. You can get through that. You'll feel good, you're feeling fine. And then depending upon what your workout might be that day, then you do kind of specific exercises. So if I know if I'm doing upper body, have specific upper body exercises, or for me, what I do is our lower body, you know, will go through your squat warmup. For me, especially as I get older machines, I'm a big believer in actually doing accessory exercises before the big compound lifts and using those machines after that warm up to kind of get those little, those smaller muscles working. And for me it's helped improve my strength and I feel better over time. So. Easy way to describe it though is your warm up is just part of your workout. It makes your working sets more efficient and then you can hit the weights that you need to do. Because there is some research that states when you get into your working sets, if you get to the heavier weights earlier, it has a better response to the muscles. Right. Instead of kind of getting a little bit too fatigued.
- [14:50]
B
Like too many feeder sets, basically.
- [14:51]
A
Sure, yeah, exactly. So I would help me mentally, especially on like, I'm like, oh, my warmups part of my workout. Like I'm not, I'm not thinking of it as a warm up, I'm just thinking of like, it's just part of how I program my workouts and I consider that part of my workouts and, and then just making sure, doing the light stretching and things outside of it to maintain those ranges of motion, then you actually need to do less to warm up and then you're just feeling better. Like, I beat my body up in college, bro. Like I went to University of Pennsylvania, played football, had an awful strength and conditioning coach. Just a strong man type guy, like old school, you know, like T nation, like bodybuilding type where he didn't make athletes and he beat us up. And from there, that's really what forced me to like get my certs, study all this stuff because I was like, there's gotta be a better way. So that was like my kind of villain origin story. So yeah, it's like, don't skimp on that because it kind of makes everything better. And then, you know, the other side of it, which is like a whole other discussion. But strength training also can improve your flexibility if you do it right. And a lot of people don't like really focus on isometrics and eccentrics and the dynamic ranges of motion through, through different planes rather than like just the big compound exercises. So I'm telling you fellas, just like you gotta, you kind of need to.
- [16:12]
B
What about so, so post workout, is there, do you, do you have like, do you like to take a decent warm, you know, warm.
- [16:20]
A
A cool, cool down? I, I mean everybody thinks I love to work out. I don't necessarily just because of time. So cool downs for me are about breathing. And I consider him an off ramp. So my thought process is like, I could, I might do light stretching, but for me it's like maybe five minutes of light stretching, sync with breathing, and then like five minutes of box breathing or something. Like four second inhale just to regulate the cns. Yeah. So I'm a big believer in having small windows that act as off ramps and I think a cool down shows that. And then I just basically want to get my body out of the fight or flight or whatever because I think a lot of people don't realize what's the point? What's the actual point of a workout? What is the point?
- [17:04]
B
I mean, you're activating your muscles, you're building strength.
- [17:08]
A
Okay. Yes. So you're introducing a stressor and then hopefully you come back stronger right to your body. We're hit with stressors all day, so workout also. And that's really the point of warm ups, also cool downs. It should make us more adaptable to stress. My opinion is there are those five minute windows at the end of workouts, give or take, that you then can act as a ramp to kind of calm yourself down so then you have a better overall stress response instead of just going from stressor to stressor to stressor to stressor. So a lot of people say they're working out to oh, I gotta get rid of my stress or I'm stressed out, so I need to work out. And then they push really hard and then they just go back into their day. There's no calibration in the brain. There's no kind of setup. There's no like, hey body. I talk to my body. I'm like, hey body, fuck yeah. Great workout. You did this. I know you're having a little bit of a stressful day though. Let's breathe real quick, let's think about what we need to do that the rest of the day and we make ourselves more adaptable to stress. To me, that's the point of the workout. Of course the physical stuff will come, but I think that's a key window at the end of workouts to just do your breathing, check in with yourself a little bit of some somatic exercise. How, how's that body feeling? And then it also is very important for the gut a lot of people don't think about. What do most people do after they work out? They eat. Right. Especially runners. A lot of runners eat kind of shitty, unfortunately. Right. What is, what, what, what happens to your gut after a very hard workout?
- [18:31]
B
What happens to your gut after a very hard workout?
- [18:34]
A
What do you think happens?
- [18:36]
B
Your gut is probably ready to take on food.
- [18:40]
A
Okay. Your gut, after hard workouts, you have Increased permeability in your gut, which is considered what, Slight leaky gut. Right. But due to that stress over time, your body then rebuilds its stomach or its digestive system, as it should to actually be more resilient. But, and this is why I think you calm yourself down, let yourself know food is coming, get yourself riled up, get into, you know, rest and digest. Your body is leaking toxins because you have increased permeability in your digestive system. So my thought process is you have to be very kind to your stomach after especially hard workouts or hard endurance efforts. And this is a burgeoning area of research, but for most people it's overlooked. So that's why I'm also like, calm yourself down, calm yourself down and nourish. Nourish with something that's really good.
- [19:26]
B
I did not know that most people don't had increased permeability after a workout. It's leaking.
- [19:31]
A
You're leaking toxins. And you could be leaking toxins. I might say you are, but there's an increased chance of that. So that's often why you. People have dysbiosis right after marathons. Their guts are acting funny. So. And what, what are the big supplements people are talking about now? It's glutamine. You got Dr. Rhonda Patrick talking about a lot in the past. It's been said that it helps improve immunity, that type of thing. It's not quite that. It's that glutamine can help reduce or reduce the increased permeability after exercise or shorten that. So for me, and especially as I've gotten older, digestion is super key. And I think also we know there's a connection to stress levels in your digestion. And if you just put yourself through a very stressful thing and you're doing that so you can then adapt. I think the cool down is actually very important for regulating digestion.
- [20:21]
B
Dude, man, you just really, really opened up a door for me, man. Like for. Because I just a, A, I never heard that. Yeah, right. B, there's not an athlete that I know that doesn't have some sort of a gut issue. And I could just tell you this. Like, I, I competed five years in men's physique. Right. My gut throughout that process, and I'm still dealing with ramifications of it now, but my gut throughout that process was absolutely destroyed. Yep, destroyed. Like, I learned an enormous amount about nutrition throughout that process. However, my gut response to putting my body through that kind of stress was absolutely terrible. Yeah, terrible. And now Understanding that the permeability of the gut lining is increased through training.
- [21:13]
A
Yes, especially very hard, especially long endurance efforts.
- [21:16]
B
So that. So, okay, so now that we understand that, let's give some solution to that. What is a good protocol next step after training, outside of breathing? One other thing that I want to mention that I. I'm happy you brought up because I introduced a little bit of a. Of a. Of a recalibration into my life when about three years ago, I was coming home from work, I pulled my truck up into the. Into the driveway, walked into the house on the phone, you know, just still working, still working. Walk right past my young son, young son saying, dad looking up at me, saying, dad looking up at me. I turned around, I said, dude, don't you. And I snapped on him. And I looked at my kid looking at me, just devastated, dude, just devastated. Because, you know, that taught me an enormous lesson that all that kid wants in life is my attention. Right. It's a powerful moment for me in my life. So what I introduced was when I pull my truck into my driveway now, before I get to the house, I stop the car, I turn it off, and I do box breathing for about five minutes.
- [22:29]
A
Amazing.
- [22:29]
B
And it absolutely, totally brings me back down to baseline. It just brings me back down to baseline. I go from intense work, entrepreneur mode to, okay, now it's time to be father mode, husband mode. You know what I'm saying?
- [22:43]
A
Out of curiosity, do you feel a shift and how your body feels when you do that?
- [22:47]
B
100%.
- [22:48]
A
One of my theories is that, and especially with how big therapy is getting, that men don't respond as well to talk therapy, although it is important, I still think, but that men respond better to somatics. That transition of the feeling within the body goes a very long way. And our body has such an innate knowledge. While there's a very interesting book called Focusing where they. This guy was trying to figure out why therapy actually works for some people and not others. And is it. Does it have to do with the type of therapy or what? And basically, it's like there's a shift in the embodied feeling that exists that then makes a problem not seem like a problem. So the body has this such innate knowledge that we often overlook. And it's just like simple things like that. There are all these gateways that we just check in with ourselves. You just did that for five minutes. It probably made the next three to six hours of your life better. But your child's life, the. The. The.
- [23:43]
B
I'm happy you brought that Up. Because the last two years of my life have been dedicated to breath work.
- [23:48]
A
Yeah.
- [23:48]
B
So breath work. And I've shared it a lot in my content because of how profound and powerful it's been for me.
- [23:55]
A
Yes.
- [23:55]
B
I've been in and out of therapy my whole life. Right. Like I've dipped in and out. It's never clicked. I've never clicked with, with cognitive therapy. It's just never. I've never been one of those people who like, oh man, I got this great therapist. Like, I'll go for like six weeks and I'm like, I'm out. I just don't get it. Not to say that there's anything wrong with cognitive therapy. It works for a lot of people.
- [24:15]
A
Right?
- [24:15]
B
Obviously. However, I did my first real breathwork session, funny enough, at an event called Running Man.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah.
- [24:27]
B
Two years ago.
- [24:27]
A
Yeah. Jesse. Shout out. Jesse. Yeah.
- [24:29]
B
Changed my life, dude. Changed my life. Like when you say men respond to.
- [24:34]
A
That somatic stuff, that's my personal belief of doing. I've done normal talk therapy, I've done gestalt therapy, which kind of tries to bridge both. And then I've done like strict somatics in the thought process that you're tired of talking. And somatics is like body based work kind of transforming that through first the knowledge of the body and how it responds. I think basically what you're speaking to and what we're gonna see in the therapy space is the same way with workouts. So if I as a trainer or whatever, that part of my life, if I have a client, client comes to me, right. And they want to get in shape and I only have one thing in my toolbox I could give them, right. And say we just run. And they're like, this isn't working for me. Am I going to tell that client that fitness doesn't work? You see what I'm saying? So, versus like when it raised the therapy. There's actually so many other disciplines. Maybe somebody needs a little bit more, whatever. Pilates or yoga, maybe some people respond better to hit, other people respond better to strength, all this type of stuff. But we've compartmentalized therapy. Really. And see cogn behavioral therapy on the couch. Yeah. Or psychoanalysis versus like the body. We will never be able to understand how intuitive and knowledgeable the body is. And the reason why we've separate mind and body is like old school, whatever Cartesian dualism type thing, like I think therefore I am or whatever. And we've kind of made the body this, like this just physical mass and Blob that needs to be taken over and needs to be punished. Well, instead it's crazy that your body can take in so much stimuli and transform it into a feeling that allows you to act. And then that's essentially interoception, which is another one of our senses. Right. So the thought process is, you know, when you're hungry, you know when you're anxious, you know when you're excited, you know when you're nervous. All this type of stuff that you feel in the physical of your body. But if that. If that connection is off, that's when you feel weird, you feel disembodied. So this thought process that we always have to go through our mind first when we are. When will that. When we try to make everything so cerebral is not, in my opinion, especially for guys, is not always the way. Because one we don't even know the full story. It's the parents, it's the friends, it's the other people, this type of thing. A lot of times the therapist ain't gonna know the full story cause you don't even know it. And then they not getting enough perspectives, whatever. But if the therapist sometimes can work through the feedback your body is giving you and untangle that knot, that's crazy. And that's special.
- [27:03]
B
Yeah. There's no other as far as I'm concerned. And you know, I'm such a believer in this that I actually just hosted 30 men on my property for a deep dive into the breath. And we just did. It was. It was. I mean, I feel like I've done some cool shit in my life. Like that retreat that I just hosted goes down as probably the number one thing. It was. It was so profound because. And there was 30 guys there. 28 of them had never experienced anything like breathwork before. And I'm not talking about box breathing or double inhale, long exhale. Wim Hof like good to all that stuff too. I use those things. But this kind of breath work is powerful. Like you are. Your body is showing you things that have just been deeply lodged in the psyche.
- [27:56]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [27:57]
B
You know, that really move you through. It's wild. It's wild.
- [28:01]
A
Yeah. There's a really good book called. I mean everybody knows about Body Keeps a Score. But there's another one called like Taming the Tiger. And the guy talks about if you've ever seen why like very similar, like zebras don't get ulcers, I guess. But Solopski I think it was. But anyway, it's like when people go through. When animals go through very traumatic experiences, like an antelope just got chased or whatever, it's like they just stop for a second and they shake violently. So they let it out of their body and then they just continue to go about their lives. We don't, oftentimes we don't let it out. So then we have to go to this other end where, you know, then down the line things get so intense and ayahuasca or all these other pilgrimages, instead of like that consistent on the day, perhaps leading through the breath in those different styles can like literally help you shake it off. So I mean, I commend you for doing that. I think there's a lot of space, I think there's a lack of spaces for men that aren't like corny or manosphere or restless pill. And it just needs like the concept of homophily, like, like attracts like. I think if we're able to kind of work through things together that then makes it and, and keep the best aspects of masculinity, that of course makes it better for women and boys coming up. But you know, I, I, we need, we need better examples out there. And centering men is not a bad thing if it's done correctly. Like if you look at the stats, men die earlier, men commit more suicides, men don't really go to the doctor. Men have lower educational attainment. If you do a blind test on that and somebody said that and you didn't know they were men, you say, oh, shh, we need to step in here and center what this population is.
- [29:36]
B
Dude, I've been talking a lot about this because look, obviously men are in a unique place in history right now for the first time I think ever really. Right. There's a lot of, there's a big conversation that makes being a man relatively controversial. Right?
- [29:52]
A
Yeah. First time in American history. Sure.
- [29:55]
B
Exactly.
- [29:56]
A
Right, right.
- [29:58]
B
We should point that out. Right. It's not happening in other places, but here it certainly is. And a glaring example for me specifically at this retreat that we just had is, you know, the guys that showed up to this thing, showed up, they showed up ready to go, ready to work, really. And I said very clearly, you know, because most people would think for me, coming from me, like, oh, I'm hosting a men's retreat. It's going to be like a fitness fest.
- [30:24]
A
Right?
- [30:25]
B
I was like, this is not a fitness fest. There is going to be no fitness. We're going to do one ruck on a four day thing. That is it. That is all we're doing. We are here to like, truly calibrate our lives.
- [30:35]
A
Right.
- [30:36]
B
And. And so the dudes that showed up were ready for that. The first night we had a. We had a big circle round of fire, and it was just an opportunity for everybody to get up and just kind of share where they're at. And every single man that stood up and talked within two minutes. Emotional response, just organic. Like every dude.
- [30:59]
A
Yeah.
- [31:00]
B
And that said to me that men in this country, but I would imagine probably globally, are walking around with an enormous amount of emotion and energy that is just lodged deep inside that they are not expressing.
- [31:18]
A
There's a. There's like two things that you said. One, it's like double clicking on. It's not necessarily controversial to be a man. There's controversy surrounding the sins of our fathers, which is fair, but because of the sins of our fathers and whatever, patriarchy, toxic masculinity, however you want to describe it, you should not punish us. But we should be able to figure this thing out together because it'll make everybody be able to operate better. And there's a very good book written about this woman who was raising a boy, and she realized that boys actually have it hard. And that throughout the life and upbringing of a girl, they're told to embrace the best aspects of how a man often would act, be forthcoming, be independent, do all that while a guy. We're told not to be like a woman. And then we're told basically that there's stuff about being a man that's bad. So what is actually good about it? So basically, then when it ends up happening, we have very low emotional IQs, and then we're not able. And then through all the things thrown at us, we're not able to process these feelings. So in a very. The same way, then it's like an injury rearing its head if you don't warm up or cool down. And what's really warming up or cooling down, it's the body about the process that's about to go through a workout. If you don't know how to do that emotionally, then we have to set up these situations like this, where then we have these cathartic kind of experiences. But I do think that's the future. I think it's like. And it's interesting because it goes back to the beginning of conversation and definitely want you to throw more questions at me, but it goes back into what I think we're seeing is men's fitness is very large. Men's wellness is not. And there's a difference there versus with women. Women. There's women's wellness. And like for now, fitness is a key component of that. They've kind of reversed it. But the men's wellness industry actually hasn't really been created yet. And fitness should be an anchor point in that. But for whatever reason, it's separate and it's not. It's not really have been integrated in a dynamic way. So. So basically, I think we have to bridge that gap into seeing how physical activity really is just a component of increasing men's wellness overall. Or wellness, in my opinion is those holistic strategies that we do every day that improve our health overall. And our health is our state of being. And we want to optimize that, for lack of a better term, not from a productivity standpoint, but so we could feel good. The wellness strategies have to be more than just physical activity. Brotherhood, communion, breathing, if that's your thing, going to the doctor, figuring out how we relate with our family units, figuring out our jobs, figuring out our intellectual pursuits. Like that's the Ocho system to me was a wellness, was a holistic strategy that then had different wellness activities or different wellness buckets that then drive to then health overall. Physical activity is just one small piece of that.
- [34:11]
B
Tell us about the Ocho system real quick.
- [34:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. So the Ocho system, I founded it when I was at UPenn and now it's kind of like my design philosophy and kind of consulting company. But it stands for two. It stands for one could help others and others can help one. So this feedback loop of gratitude. But also I study sociology, the concentration in psychology and marketing. And you see the interdependence that's associated with well being. So essentially sociology more so like the social determinants of health. So then what I realized was everything had become so individualistic and myopic. Even as related to football, you still need a team. And then also this thinking of, okay, if I look at myself as a piece of art, what are the philosophies that are necessary for me to flourish as a person? So Ocho system is also eight key areas that I think are very important for your health. So of course there's physical, so that's sleep, diet, exercise. Right. But then there's also emotional. Right. So that for me, that's purpose building what refills your cup. For some, you could throw spirituality in there if that's important to you. And then mental, right? Mental is a little bit different. I look at mental health as toughness. I think people, I think Life is hard, but you got to be tough. What are your resilience strategies? How do we build that? So those three things to me create your cup, I call it your cup. How do we grow your cup, how do we bulletproof your cup? And then how do we refill that cup with clean water consistently. And then the environment that, that, that cup exists in. So now other things are outside of your control. So now you have your, I think intellectualism is important, so your intellectual pursuits. But then of course your environment, like the world's greater environment. And now we're seeing that with like, you know, toxins and all those things that are associated. Your job, occupational, right? Then you have like, you know, your social connections and we keep, we, we build out from there. So then, so you see that you have like a large ring. There's some things that are under your control, of course, but then you have to look at the things that expand outside of that. And then you perform what I call a SWOT analysis, or excuse me, a multi utility attribute analysis. So within those eight key areas, you then see what are the things that basically come more natural to me, what are the things that I will need more help on, how do I weight it accordingly to create the best output for my health at this moment? But it's an integrative wellness strategy. It's not just working out because that's not, again, like we talked about at the beginning, it's not going to solve it. So for me, like the Ocho system was that as a personal, individual, like wellness thought process, but then also as a thought process for a consulting company. Because now you have these eight key areas of health. I think every company is a health and wellness company. And when I first started out of school, of course I started in a physical and my work with Nike and all that because it's a catalyst and it's a way to get my foot in a door. But because I think every company is a health and wellness company, I started to kind of put things together and get more ops. So I worked with Smart Water for like three years of creative direction. I worked with Dyson. Like people like, why are you working with a vacuum company? I'm like, because environment, you have three environments. You have your body, you have your house, and then you have the world. So I work with them on social impact projects. I've worked with, I've worked with a bunch of companies just simply because I'm like, hey, either internally or externally with what you're doing, you are a health and wellness company. And We've seen how much that's grown over the past 10 years. But that's how I look at it. I think everything goes back. I think every. Yeah, I just, like, it's so much bigger than just the workouts, you know? So that's what the ultra system is.
- [37:37]
B
So do you.
- [37:37]
A
So.
- [37:38]
B
So, I mean, at the end of the day, right, it all boils down to just feeling good.
- [37:41]
A
Right.
- [37:41]
B
Like that. That's ultimately what it is.
- [37:43]
A
Yeah.
- [37:44]
B
And. And I would argue to say that the vast majority of, like, the people in the world of fitness today and not. Not regular people, the people in the world of fitness don't necessarily point to, like, feeling good as, like, the thing. Right. It's like, how strong can you get? How lean can you get? How much can you, like, what are you competing in now? You know?
- [38:06]
A
You want to hear my theory on this?
- [38:07]
B
I would love to.
- [38:12]
A
It's because most of them have not played sports. Most fitness influencers, while some have. Most fitness influencers were not good at sports. So they don't know what the performance world actually is like. Because the performance world is, of course, when you got to. You had to struggle through injuries and that type of thing. The ultimate goal is to be able to perform while you're feeling good. The whole thing is to feel good. So once you, as an athlete is like. And you really have that athlete mindset, you realize it's not about, like, this, this. It's not about this weird spotlight that it seems like a lot of guys are chasing after this, like, Internet clout. The whole point is to feel good. Because what do you want to do when LeBron wants or Jordan or whomever wants to step on the court? Of course, if you have to push through injuries, you will, but when you're on the court, you want to be able to feel good mentally, emotionally, physically, to be able to dominate. Correct. Most people end up retiring because their body breaks down. Then they go on to the next thing. So the thought process again is what? I guess the question is, what do we want to feel good for? What do you want to feel good for?
- [39:09]
B
The priority for me is having the best life with my wife and kids.
- [39:12]
A
Life? Yeah. You want to feel good for life? Do you just want to feel good for going to the gym for 30 minutes? Right. That may be a small component of it, but the point is not to feel good in the gym, to be good at life. The point is to be good at life. That is it. And since it's bigger than just the physical, there has to Be this thought process of that's my key question is, which you cannot deny. Do you deserve to feel good?
- [39:39]
B
Absolutely.
- [39:40]
A
Then let's figure out the best way to do that. And if you think it's just for workouts, which again, men's, men's fitness and men's wellness has just been grounded in the workouts, you're not going to make it. You're not going to make it. It's not about running the fastest marathon time. Sure. But if we want to get you there, we want you to feel good. It's about that as men, as we get older, as the world changes, as there's things that outside of our control as humans, the chaos that's associated with life and we know that this life is going to end. The whole point is to feel good right now, as best as you can and consistently over time. Because guess what, and I say it a lot, the future is nothing more than the present moment arriving. And if we could figure out how to feel good now, now, now, now, now, is that all that we have? But of course, you know, we don't sell ourselves short. We make sure we do the things that it can improve our longevity or whatever. It's not about longevity. It's about vitality. It's about balancing the best of both worlds, for lack of a better term of how do we feel good now? Does that increase our chances of feeling good later? But if I take care of what I need to do now because the future is nothing more than the present moment arriving, I probably have a good chance of feeling decent.
- [40:46]
B
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- [42:29]
A
Yeah.
- [42:29]
B
You know what I'm saying? Like what, what are, what are some of the things that people can do on a daily basis that you've implemented, that you've shared, you know, that you've coached people on that are going to move people closer to that pathway?
- [42:46]
A
Yeah, I think the thing would think of rituals and like I want to go back and answer the question about the stomach thing, but we'll start with the thought process of rituals. Right. There's a very, very interesting philosopher like by young Hal Chan. He's like this German Japanese guy and he's still alive and he talks about like that humans need rituals. So my thought process is like rituals, can't they force you to be there? You can't really rush through them. So I think in your day you think about ritualistic practices first. That will make you feel better. So for you gave one, you go home before you get in the door, you do your box breathing. That's a key ritual for you. I think there's certain windows in your day that you have more control over. So whether that's in the morning or the evening, or even breaks during your day, you have to figure out very simple physical rituals you can be in there. For me, that's like exercise, snacks. Like I wake up in the morning, I do five to 10 minutes of just simple movement. Right. Like I've been, my big one lately has been like five sun salutation, sun salutation, yoga flow and not 100 jumps. If I have a jump rope, I'll do it or whatever and then some breathing. So for me, what does that that do? It helps wake me up, it helps me stay off my phone. And as gross as it is, it helps you go to the bathroom, it helps peristalsis, it helps your Digestion. And for me, digestion is king. And I don't get how people just put food on top of food without going to the bathroom in the morning. It's very bizarre to me. But like, so one thing that I'll say is, step one, figure out your morning routine.
- [44:12]
B
Let's talk about yours real quick.
- [44:13]
A
Sure. I wake up, I usually try to. There's two things. I usually try to stay off my phone. But if I know I have to get stuff done, I will say sometimes I just do a 15, 20 minute blitz. I get all the annoying emails, I was out the gate. I'm like, I'll breathe for a second though. So number one is this is the first thing I wake up and I let myself know where I am because sometimes I'm on the road a lot. So early in my career I used to get thrown off, immensely thrown off because some days I would wake up and I have no idea where I was. And that will give me intense anxiety because for a second I'd be discombobulated. So I wake up, up, tell myself where I am. I do five to 10 wrist rolls in each direction, ankle rolls, five deep breaths, a quick body scan, and I'm like, another day, another chance, let's go. Then from there I make a decision. I'm like, if there's something that I just forgot to do yesterday, but I don't let it have an alarm reaction. I'm like, all right, if I just do 15 minutes of these emails, get them done, it'll probably buy me three hours of time. I'm not gonna let it overwhelm me. I'll just get them out the way or I'll try to stay off my phone. I'll get up and I'll do the kind of that sun salutation flow, have a cup of water, have a little piece of a fruit. I'm like big on like light starting of digestion, go through that, then go in the shower, bathroom, shower, that type of thing. And then I've been big recently on like lymph practices and like doing kind of like a lymph gua Sha kind of flow.
- [45:40]
B
What is that?
- [45:42]
A
Basically, you know, the lymphatic system is basically like this under researched system. The Twitter girlies like are huge on this. Like the Twitter girlies are huge on lymph. And they're right. I will say the lymph system is basically like a sense interconnected system in your body. I mean most people know the lymph nodes and all that type of thing, but the Easiest way to describe it is kind of like it's this runoff fluid that when your blood pumps through the body, like, stuff kind of leaks out. And that's. And that's essentially your lymph. And you have a lymph system in your body that helps transport, like white blood cells, certain nutrients, signaling molecules all throughout the body. So some people believe that in addition, of course, like your mitochondria, that a stagnant lymph is actually the start of poor health. Your lymph has no natural pump, though, so you have to naturally pump your lymph and keep it healthy through lifestyle practices. One of the ways, of course, to naturally pump your lymph is exercise and light movement. Also breathing, deep breathing, because you have a. We have a big response when you inhale, inhale, fill it fully or. And this is why sometimes it's funny when you look back on trends where people didn't really explain them very well and people just threw them away. So you do remember, like, 10 years ago, like, dry brushing was really big and everybody's like, why the hell are people dry brushing? This is so stupid. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. People weren't explaining that if you know how to do it, it can actually help stimulate. Stimulate lymph flow. So there's very simple areas on the body that if you just lightly kind of rub, can help stimulate lymph. And you see this in. A lot of doctors will do it for patients that have, like, lymphedema that's like, really stagnant. Right. When it's like the legs blow up or all that thing. Or Normatex. One of the uses of Normatex is for that. But you can kind of do it yourself. Like, you can rub behind your ears. You can just take the gua sha from the neck and lightly rub down towards the clavicle.
- [47:32]
B
That's a little tool.
- [47:33]
A
Yeah, it's just like this little, like, Asian tool. I guess it's like a rose quartz tool. But, you know, I've had a. I've had a few lady friends in my life that put me onto the value of the quad shop. And then you. There's really good videos on YouTube. Like, I'll send it to you. It's really quick. And I have noticed the benefits. And. And then, yeah, going to shower. Can't be on my phone in the shower. One of my slogans in the shower, it's like, I try to be where I am. So it's like if I'm, you know, Soaping up, that's where I am. And I'm like, I'm not thinking about what I got to do next. I'm like trying to just say, drop in the now. And I say to myself, you know what? We're washing off the bullshit of yesterday and we're rubbing in, locking in the good of today. And after we get out the shower, you know what we're gonna have to do? Get out the shower. I usually prep juice for the week. So, like I have a juice I'll kind of write down or run through then what I gotta do for my day. And you know, then by that point I've probably been off the phone for an hour. And you know, then I'll start to make a real, real, like a real breakfast. And then we kind of hit the ground running. So it's actually, I'll do a little cleaning too, just because I've gotten big in my older age of like trying to have a cleaner area. But it's like that ritual, like for some people that might be making a coffee, that might be making a matcha. I'm big on like that monk thought process of cleaning like that. That's something that I've taken from, from, from like a monastery practice. Like they're very big on cleaning in the morning. So I think it's that it's like you need your monastic style rituals in the morning and the evening to act as the onboard and off ramp of the day. And really what is that? And it's very similar to why, why do guys struggle in the gym? They don't do their warmup and their cool down. And to me, the morning ritual and the evening ritual are the warm up and the cool down to my day. And if I do those, it then makes this next seven to eight hours of my life better. And the cool down. The evening rituals has always been. Been the hardest for me when I, I've gotten better at that.
- [49:26]
B
But we gotta hear the evening ritual.
- [49:29]
A
Evening ritual is like, it's a lot of times, like I gotta be out for events and stuff, so it's hard. But I turn, I try to turn off all artificial light, just keep one lamp on. I'm very big on running through your day to then understand your feelings of what happened through the day.
- [49:46]
B
So do you just do a mental.
- [49:47]
A
I do a reflection. So I'm a big believer, like allostasis, which is the thought process of your brain as a predictive organ. And us as humans can essentially time travel. So if we can look into the future, but Also the past. And if you recalibrate your feelings with the past, that then often allows your brain to be better predictive and deal with stressors in the future more efficiently because it has a frame of reference. But a lot of times due to the phones or just because we're always go, go, go, we're not really assimilating what we did or the feelings that we had in response to that. And are those feelings valid? Right. So they may be real, but are they valid? And then you could recalibrate your feelings with negative past experiences in real time every day or every week or whatever.
- [50:29]
B
But one thing I want to say to that, though. I think it's important too, for anybody listening. I believe in reflection, too, on a daily basis. I think it's so important because we could just go through our lives not thinking about what happened. Unless it's super bad.
- [50:43]
A
Yeah, right. But even rarely good, rarely, rarely do.
- [50:47]
B
We do we reflect on the good. But like, if it's super bad, like, we'll. We'll think about it.
- [50:51]
A
Thanks.
- [50:52]
B
If you're. If you're listening to this and you have kids, right? Married, kids, whatever. You know, a ritual that we do in my house, which has been super powerful for me, but I also think for my wife and kids, is that we do rosebud, thorn and rosebud and thorn and seed. And so rose is like, hey, one thing that happened that was awesome. Thorn. One thing that happened that wasn't awesome, Rosebud, thorn, bud. Something that we're looking forward to. So it's a cool thing to do. And then seed. How are you of service? Right? One thing that you did that helped somebody else. And I think that's a cool little tactic, a tool, a habit that people listening could potentially put in there if they sit around a dinner table. It's been super powerful for me.
- [51:33]
A
No, I love that. We did that when I was in Greece, I guess, for the yoga retreat. We've done that on a bunch of trips. Women typically always end up bringing that up, but I think. I think you alluded to a good point, especially if you have a family. I don't have a family. I don't have a wife. I don't have kids. So I guess it's kind of implementing it myself. But the thought process of also good. It's like a lot of our issues come from rumination, and we ruminate on the wrong things. But oftentimes when good things happen to you, and this is what I would suggest especially for guys, how many, like, we. Not really Complimented and stuff like that. When something good happens to you, there is like a psychological theory where like you ruminate on that positively. Like, don't just let it pass, catch it, hold it feeling. Yeah, it's just like. Or at least like live that embodied feeling. You're like, you know what? That felt good. I was glad I got that done. I was glad I got that compliment. I was glad somebody, you know, cheered me and pushed me on first a lot of the times, you know, and it's like black. It's a joke that black men do it a lot. It's like when we run into each other, it's always like, I'm just trying to be like you, bro. Like, oh, no, I'm just trying to keep up with you, man. And it's like, nah, like we both fucking doing this, man. Like celebrate each other and like celebrate yourself and hold on. When those positive things happen and then, you know, it is a, it's, it's being Teflon in a sense of when negative things happen. Of course, do like a post mortem and reflect on why that they happen. Watch the tapes. Yeah, watch the tapes. But don't let that, that emotion, don't let that feeling turn into a sunken emotion, you know, don't let your body hold on to it.
- [53:03]
B
I love that. Reflecting at night, I think it's. I think it's great, especially if you're not asking people to like sit down and write it all out. Because I think that that tends to be the first thing to go out the door right when you ask. But, but you know, just a quick little mental one, you know, I think a mental reflection. All right, so mental reflection. And then what?
- [53:21]
A
Then I'm either trying to read like, you know, I try to. I've been big on reading at night, or it's just like stretch, stretching, I think, you know. All right, so I'm really big. One of the things is so fucking nerdy. But when the sun starts to go down, I'm home. I'm a big Jeopardy. Guy. Jeopardy Is my like little off ramp and saying, day is done. I'm gonna cook dinner. I'm gonna watch Jeopardy. I even record it. I'm like, like, that's the off ramp, right? And then, you know, now the sun's down, so we get the artificial light off. We kind of start to reflect through the day, maybe write out stuff that I know I got to do tomorrow real quick. Now I'm fed and I'm going to try to read a little bit, text my mom she text my mom, good night, whatever. And then for the most part, just do the nighttime skin routine. Try to leave the phone in the other room, and I'm off to bed. And then a stretch. I do think when you're watching TV or watching a game or something like that, easy stretch, easy stretch, easy breathing. And then by the time, kind of get into bed, I do. I do have a good supplement routine at night. I'm very big on. I think vitamin C is underrated as it relates to, like, adrenals and HPA access. I'm like, you know, do my vitamin C, do my magnesium, do a little gaba, do a little, like, glutathione, a tart cherry juice. And then a little glycine. And then. Yeah, and then do that 60 to 90 minutes or so before bed. And I try to get in bed and just, like, try to breathe myself to sleep or be like, you know, it's time. So I'm lucky. I don't really have issues falling asleep, but I used to too much just hop in bed and not. And not let my brain. But I like that process. I know it sounds crazy, but, like, you'll literally feel your brain cleaning itself and reorienting and calibrating itself and, like, assimilating the memories, the feelings, this type of thing. It's like a car wash for your brain. And it's like. It feels so good. Yeah, yeah.
- [55:20]
B
No, I mean, that is definitely. That is a tool that I think is a powerful one, thinking through, like, actually what, you know, in the Power of Now. Eckhart Tolle. There's one line in that book that really just made a massive impact on me. And what was it? Everything happens now.
- [55:40]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [55:41]
B
Everything happens now. Yes, that one. That one simple line in that book. And I've read that book multiple times, and every time I go through past that line, I'm like, everything happens now is a crazy thought, right? Every single thing. Everything in life happens right now. You know, yesterday's gone, tomorrow's not guaranteed. It just all happens now. And I think the presence of that, right, like, you could be totally in the moment and right now, present. And also, totally appreciate looking back at your day, because chances are you were not there for most of it.
- [56:17]
A
Facts.
- [56:18]
B
You know what I'm saying? Like, as the day moves, it just moves, you know? And especially when you're busy and you're bouncing around, right? Like, how can you. I got to start doing that, you know? I mean, rosebud, thorn, and seed is great, but I think taking, like, you know, 30 seconds to a minute to actually just close my eyes and think about what happened throughout the day.
- [56:39]
A
One of my. I started to get big. One of my very good friends, mentored, whatever I've talked about him a lot, was Virgil Abloh. And his death shook me so intensely. So when he died, I. One of the things that I had asked him before, because he had let me know that he. That he was sick. And it wasn't very much public, but I asked him, I was like, what is one thing you have changed? So as you're going through this, because he, you know, he had a heart condition. And he said, I've stopped to smell the roses. I was everywhere but where I was. And then after he, you know, he got diagnosed, he was like, I really stopped to smell the roses and like, enjoy and appreciate what I was doing. And, you know, that man was everywhere and doing a million different things and a true visionary. And that was the thing. It's like a lot of us are living life and we're not accepting, like, experiencing it. And I think that's. I don't know, I think that's sad. Like, I do. I meditate and think about death a lot. Like, it's something that has been on my mind from a very young age. Now I think I have a better relationship with it. But I just think everybody should have the chance to get joy out of their life. And as you said, everything happens now. So if we could recalibrate in a positive way, that of course isn't lying to ourselves, our gaslighting ourselves, our relationship with the past, forgive and let those things go. But that is again then happening now. So we improve our relationship with that in ourselves. And yeah, it's just like. It just seems like a lot of us are just running from ourselves. Whether it's. We're always listening to music in the gym or thinking about the next thing that we have to do.
- [58:12]
B
And I don't know, a habit that I implemented last year, actually coming to the studio because I don't live in the city anymore. I live up north. So I have been blessed with the ability to get into nature a lot, and it's been a massive game changer. Born and raised in Manhattan, and I just never thought that I would be living in rural New York, but it is, and I would not change it for the world. You'd have to pay me a lot of money to come back to the city, but you would. But, you know, one thing that I think was profound for me on this trip, I was just In Europe. My wife is Danish. And we were just out there and we were meeting with a friend and she was sharing with us about like three weeks ago. She was sitting with a friend of hers who was dying young person, early, early, like early 50s. And sitting with him and where we like in our community upstate. And she just asked a question like, similar to what you asked to Virgil, you know, what, what is it?
- [59:25]
A
You know?
- [59:25]
B
And he said with a smile on his face, laugh and love with your friends and family, period. That's it. Like that is at the end of it all. And that was like. It was like. When I heard that, I was like, obviously, right, like, but. But so many of us run so far from that. You know, like, laugh and love with your friends and family as much and as often as possible because we are caught in the ers. That's what I kind of like to call it's the ers. I want to be bigger, stronger, better, faster, richer. And the ers are the emergency room. And mm, those emergency room regrets, you know, it's, it's those, it's the. It's caught in the er. I'm a culprit of it. And you know, I, I think spending a lot of time building business and running around and you know, like the more stuff and like after that retreat and then hearing that, you know, God is real in my life, I mean that's just for me, but God is real in my life. Dropping these little seeds, being like, yo, dude, like, you are good. You got what you need, man.
- [60:34]
A
You are good.
- [60:34]
B
You got what you need. Look into your son's eyes and make sure he knows you're there. You know? And like I think that is just we. We. It would be amazing. Like I believe you when you say this sort of men's wellness thing is like lacking hard, you know, I'm not tripping. No, dude, no, no. If you were sitting there at that retreat, you would have been like, wow, like there is. This doesn't exist for dudes. It doesn't exist for dudes to have a place to feel. You know what I mean?
- [61:05]
A
Like, yeah, I'm trying to think of like, how do we do that? You know what I mean? Like one of the things I'm doing is starting just this all got and I'll just send you the info. Just like an all guys run club. We just meet up once or twice or whatever in new. And I just did it randomly on Instagram because I just had the idea and I like, like 200 guys, like wanted to be Able to pull up and show up. And what I'm. What I find alienating is like, we need to. How do we naturally just set up these environments that then whatever, don't become corny or just as just natural existence, no peacocking. Things become different when. There's nothing wrong with things being co ed, but as we know, things become different when. When the sexes are kind of interspersed that way. Because it's just, you know what it is, it's like, you know, you got women around like, you know, you love a shorty, but the thought process is like, can we just make these things matter of fact? So when I was in Greece, it was all women. It was me and my brother. It was one other guy, but he was with a partner there, his girl. And then it was like 23 women. Eventually I was kind of accepted as one of them. But like they just. It just naturally they were congregating. But the way that they interact that shows that is just kind of matter of fact. Talking about real in depth stuff like ebbing and flowing. It's like Showtime, Lakers, how they do it. And it's just matter of fact that they are able to let their guard down and talk about these real things. And I think that's what I'm fascinated in is like, can we. Can we keep the key components of masculinity that of course are important, but can we just have a matter of factness regarding what we're going through instead of it? Instead of us like having to put up these. Not necessarily guardrails.
- [62:44]
B
It is guardrails.
- [62:45]
A
Yeah, sure. Guardrails are parameters that then we can only do it when it's within a structured thing. Like for instance, my. One of my girlfriends, one of my friends, it's a girl. Was we. I saw her at a party and she looked like she was doing great. And I just asked her, I was like, what's going on? She was just matter of fact. It was like, oh yeah, I'm on antidepressants now. So I finally did it. I'm feeling wonderful. Whatever. I had to pick up my phone real quick. It was like out of a Seinfeld episode. I just happened to be texting. I was like, oh my God, it's so wonderful. And I looked up from my phone and I go, were you having suicidal thoughts? And then just put my things down. She was like, yeah, like I was having suicidal thoughts. I wanted to kill myself. And I don't have those anymore. I'm feeling great. I was like, oh yeah, that's. Fuck yeah. I was like, that's wonderful. And this is. But it was so matter of fact, you know what I'm saying? And it's just like. And then I. And then, you know, I saw her, she saw me. There's that natural connection that's there, and that's just part of life that we're able to bring it up. You know what I mean? So I guess that's what I know. There's a.
- [63:42]
B
You know, there's a. I think that there's just this sort of inherent callous that is thick. You know what I'm saying? And it's hard to break through that and. Because, you know, like, the masculinity topic is obviously a tough one, right? And, you know, right now anyway, and. But we talked a lot about it, as you can imagine, on this tree, on this retreat. But at the end of the day, right, like, if you look through. If you look. If you look into history over time, there was never a question of what was what, right? It just, like, you know, it was. This was kind of like. It is the burden that men walk with. You're born with it. It's part of who you are. You know what I mean? Like, that is just it, right? If the. If the. If the danger comes through the door, like, the man steps up and goes and takes care of business, man, that's just the fucking way it was, dude. It has been forever, since the beginning of time. You look into Internet, into. Into the wild, right? Like, dude, it's just what it is.
- [64:41]
A
Sure.
- [64:41]
B
You know what I'm saying? And so I think that because of that, there is this level and this layer that's hard to break through, you know, I'm saying it's hard to break through. And so I do appreciate what's happening in the culture right now. And in some way where it's like, all right, you know, yes, men, dude. Like, open your heart a bit. You know what I'm saying? Like, you have one. Yeah, you have one. Like, open it. And. And. And you're right. Like, does it suck that there has to be like, some. Some kind of a. Like, you know, fucking ordeal, man? I mean, I hire. I had fucking 16 tents put up and, you know, saunas and cold. You know, like, all this shit showed up and dude showed up, and they were like, all right, like, this is safe space. You know what I'm saying? But, man, like, yeah, like, I would love to connect with you on that, because I do think it's powerful. I think it's important because, like, we're not going anywhere. You know what I mean?
- [65:33]
A
That's it.
- [65:33]
B
We're not going anywhere. And I do believe, and I said earlier, right, like I want to ask some selfish questions because man, I'm having a bit of like, of a transition myself, you know, like I, because I found fitness to be a path of self love for me it's a double edged sword.
- [65:57]
A
Right.
- [65:58]
B
Like it is this, it's really for me mental health medicine way more than it's anything else. Like it really does like correct my mental on a daily.
- [66:07]
A
Yeah. So adjunct therapies. Any other place in the world, A lot of other places in the world, if you have any sort of mental health disorder, they would call it adjunct therapy is exercise. Like they just give it to you. Yeah. Like they tell you to exercise.
- [66:21]
B
Right, right, right, right.
- [66:24]
A
Exercise is like literally one of the most powerful drugs ever. Movement. Yeah.
- [66:29]
B
You know, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm definitely a proud user, you know what I'm saying? And you know, and it is probably pretty, pretty short sighted speaking about this or the way I've been sort of communicating this because the vast majority struggle so hard to just move.
- [66:48]
A
Right.
- [66:48]
B
Like I heard you say somewhere when I was doing my research before the pod, you know, four minutes a day or something like that.
- [66:58]
A
Yeah. There's a research about, especially with sedentary individuals out of the uk, it was a little bit of an older population, but there's this thought process. They put accelerometers on the wrists, basically monitored their movement and they saw that people who essentially had vigorous intermediate lifestyle of physical activity, vilpa or whatever, they just had moments of rushing throughout their day or their heart rate was a little bit up and moving a little bit quicker over the course of a day for four minutes. That strongly helped reduce risk of cancer and cardiovascular issues and death. So thought process of that, of how powerful that is, especially for sedentary populations, is key. So moving away from that, basically it's that there is a atypical ratio with how much you need to put in with the benefit that you'll get out. So the thought process sometimes I think we need to stick away from is that we have to not say that you always need more. Well of course if you get more, do it. But if you can't get any, then don't do it at all. Or you can't get enough, then don't do any at all. I think that's problematic. So we have to think about what's the gateway drug for true Exercise gateway drug for true exercise is movement. And there's a difference there. You know, it's like when you're moving, then you start to see it a little bit differently. I could just rush up the stairs, I'm with my kid, I could knock out 10 or 20 squats, or we could do high knees for 30 seconds. With my kid when I'm food shopping, I could just move a little bit quicker. The gateway drug for true exercise and fitness and performance activity is movement. And we're not talking enough about the impact that movement has for health. We always look at it for just fitness and, and performance. So my thought process really is, especially with how the state of the world is, is that can we just get people to move? And research continuously shows how beneficial, you know, neat is or non exercise activity and thermogenesis or whatever. Just like just moving, fidgeting. You know, we've heard Huberman talk about fidgeting or Rhonda Patrick now talking about exercise. Yeah, but it's like, okay, then it goes back to the rituals. You have the morning and the evening to be able to move in an unstructured way that still will have benefits. It doesn't have to be this whole kind of equinox soul cycle, big whatever peloton energy, this kind of bravado, the thousand dollar running fit type of thing. It's nah, just move and the body response and then it starts to build and you're like, oh. One of my favorite studies is that they showed they basically had people who didn't really work out and they wanted to. What do most people want? They want to feel good. Right. They want to increase energy and they want to reduce fatigue. Right. And those are two different things. So they saw basically they had people who didn't really exercise much. They had one group go more lower intensity, another group go medium intensity. And it maybe was like a 20 or 30 minute workout, maybe three times a week. Wasn't anything crazy. But which group, especially when they were sedentary, what was interesting was the group that did less intense, lower, a little bit lower intensity, had better improvements on their energy and fatigue. So that thought process, that always has to be hard, especially if you're just starting out, always has to be a lot. It's no, the body doesn't want these intense shocks, it wants to ramp up. Of course both groups improve their energy and fatigue. But I guess what I'm trying to say is and we look at the performance world and all these other things, the whole point is to work smarter, not harder. And the whole point is sometimes things are a little bit more counterintuitive than we would think. And if we could just convince people that again, the point of this is to feel good for life. You don't have to be this huge pro in the gym. That's why I like, look, I've been to some beautiful gyms, I'm a member at some very wonderful membership clubs. But I get inspired when I go into Blink Fitness and I see the 60 year old mom that's just on the. Is walking on the treadmill, or I see the old guy in the jeans or just an old school hoodie and dirty shorts, just trying, trying his best. Or the guy who works at a bodega down the block, or the guy who cleans my apartment building, he's in there putting in work and I go in there. That's what I love.
- [70:58]
B
Cause I think like, what I was kind of alluding to is this idea that, you know, I am transitioning out of the need to go hard all the time. Cause I just know like, bro, I'm gonna be 45 in like a month and a half.
- [71:14]
A
Oh, you look good, you know.
- [71:14]
B
Thanks, man.
- [71:15]
A
Got a little pepper in the. So. Got a little black. Don't crack it.
- [71:18]
B
Hey, man. A little bit. But you know, I'm like, I'm at this point where, you know, I just know it's no longer, I'm not, I'm not competing in sports anymore. I don't play hockey like I did when I was a little, you know, kid, you know, I want to be able to run marathons. Right. And feel good.
- [71:41]
A
Sure.
- [71:42]
B
And there's like, I literally just went basically three weeks without any, any sort of hard training.
- [71:53]
A
Good.
- [71:53]
B
None, you know, light jog, band work. And man, like, I feel really fucking good. Yeah, I feel really, really good. And like, you know what? For me, because I'm hypercritical, like, have I lost a little bit of like my fucking jackedness?
- [72:12]
A
Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Before you took that three week break, were you working out hard?
- [72:17]
B
I always work.
- [72:18]
A
Okay, so what, what? From a physiological performance world standpoint, what happened there? Basically you have what's essentially called a super compensation effect, where if you work out really hard, oftentimes you notice it, you get a little bit worse, you're not feeling that good, then you take a long break. You see it with marathons too. What do people do at the end? They taper and then they're. But their fitness thing actually gets back up because you've been working so hard. So this thought process, again, it's like strategic breaks. I call it strategic laziness, but strategic breaks are actually very, very important. And then the other thing is, what is the fact that you've been working out your whole life? Correct.
- [72:57]
B
Well, with 11 year gap when I was smoking crack, you know, we're back, baby, we're back.
- [73:03]
A
But you've been working out for a very long time. Do you think your body forgets that? No, you have a genetic memory. So the thought process is you can take breaks because it's actually gonna take you less time than to get in shape and then you'll bounce back better. And then what other people often forget is that if you work out hard all the time, especially people who do a lot of high intensity exercise, it's very interesting research that shows what constant chronic hard workouts damage your mitochondria. Right. And there's a lot of new research coming out that a lot of our chronic conditions are coming from, especially as it relates to metabolic health, is because we're sedentary over overwork, we're damaging our mitochondria.
- [73:42]
B
So this, this is exactly the question that I kicked off with. And this is, I'm so happy we're getting there.
- [73:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [73:47]
B
So, you know, the question that I have is because for me to think about, all right, man, you're just going to work out three days a week. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you're going to work out, you know, and you're going to put it in. And like, this is like a thought process that I have that this is what I'd like to do. Because though I love fitness and it really, really does fill my cup in many, many different ways. Across the spectrum, there is a component of like, hey, dude, now it's time to just feel really good. Like, look good. You don't need to be the best. You don't need to be the number one shredded dude on the fucking street. You know what I mean? Like, you just don't. And that has been a sickness of mine. Straight up.
- [74:26]
A
Yeah. A lot of guys have body dysmorphia. We don't talk about it.
- [74:29]
B
Yeah, dude, it's a sickness of mine without a question of a doubt. Like, I want to be, I want to be shredded, you know, And I just know it's just unhealthy. It's not, it's not healthy.
- [74:38]
A
So I guess the question is, so you're saying you own, you, you're working out three times a week or you're trying to wrap your head now that I'm.
- [74:44]
B
Now that I just kind of came through this three week period of time where like, I was just chill and I was traveling and I was eating pizza and fucking ice cream every night, like really enjoying life and like, being with my kids and like not being the weird dad that's like ordering like the, the chicken fucking salad at the pizzeria.
- [75:00]
A
Yeah.
- [75:00]
B
You know what I'm saying? You know, chances are the chicken salad's worse than the pizza itself. But like, being that dude because of like legit, full transparent sickness around it.
- [75:13]
A
Right.
- [75:16]
B
Like stepping into this new transition of wanting to just feel good and still be in great shape and still be able to do things, but not have the need, like every time I get into some new modality which I'll, you know, I'll dip into something new every 18 to 24 months.
- [75:32]
A
Right.
- [75:32]
B
Like, like, I want to be the best. I want to be. I want to compete. And it's just, you know, and unfortunately for me, I know how to do that. Right. And so. But the area that I have not taken seriously enough is that recovery piece. Right. Is that recovery piece. So I would love to just like sort of finish off on understanding and making a statement around. It's not about how hard you're training and how much you're training.
- [76:05]
A
Sure.
- [76:05]
B
It's like, how can we say, hey, like, you can have it all.
- [76:10]
A
Yeah. That goes to programming. It's like, you know, some people do need a little bit more, some people need a lot less. It's the thought process of like, okay, you know, when your training sessions are. So this is what, this is how you, I think you apply the performance mindset. You know, you're training three or four or whatever days a week. So you want those training sessions to be the best that they possibly can be. Then that means you have to have the proper effort in each session. Going 100% doesn't mean you're always going all out. That means I'm doing what's necessary in this session to get the best overall. So for instance, it's like with running, you've trained for marathons. Every run's not hard.
- [76:47]
B
No.
- [76:48]
A
Right. But because you need specific adaptations to make you then feel the best.
- [76:51]
B
Only two runs are really hard.
- [76:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah, you probably. And the rest are usually base runs or your long runs is a little less intense. So then when you're, then you work out in the gym, you know, for you, what comes easy is your anchor points of your training sessions. Then around that you say, okay, what are the Recovery things that I would do that would make me better for my training sessions, right? Because then I want to win the game and the game really is life. I want to feel good on the day to day with my family and my friends, with my kids, right? So then you think of how do I insert recovery strategies that will make both me feel better in life and then make sure my training sessions are where they need to be, right? So that's how I essentially look at it. So then what are some of the. I guess the question becomes like, what are some of the recovery things you could do? Of course, meditation and breathing always comes easy for easier for you, right? Then food. Food is nourishment. So making sure you're eating healthy, not this through this thought process of like intense orthorexia or restriction, but it's just like making sure I'm putting, for the most part in my body things that make me feel good. And the other thought process is like, you're in Europe, you're back, you survived, you ate all that food or you did, you survive, survive, you survived, you thrive 100%. And then with the recovery stuff, again, it's about dosage and I'd look at it two ways kind of to structure it. You have essentially active recovery, right? Like you have active active, I call it, and you have passive active, and you have passive passive, right? So let me explain that. Active active is essentially stuff that you would do that is not that high intense, but high. Not of high intensity, but will have you feeling better. Stretching, light jump rope for five to 10 minutes in the morning, that type of thing. So you're actively engaged in something. Then there's passive active, which is you are passively, you are passive, but there's an active external source that's acting upon you that will help improve your health, right? So think a sauna, cold plunge.
- [78:43]
B
Copy that.
- [78:44]
A
Massage, E stim, Normatec, hypervolt, all those things. That's more of like the tech, right? And then there's what? There's passive passive, which is there. There is, for the most part I'm doing nothing. And while I'm doing nothing, then there's there's passively a stimulus that's occurring that will then make me feel better. And for like shits and giggles, technically it is active. And what is that? That's really sleep. Sleep, Right. Sleep is the most powerful recovery tool. Passive, passive. So then you figure out what are the things I could do to then optimize, quote unquote, those three areas. Passive, passive. For sleep, you Gotta have a good sleep routine, you know what I mean? And cut out the stuff that might interfere with your sleep. Then for the other stuff you kind of build. This is what I take from the performance world of having played a sport. You build your recovery team. And those are either the tools that you might need or the other experts that you might need. My brother's a physical therapist. He's a godsend. He's basically healed my body. I have a great massage therapist. I think it makes more sense to pay money for these things than expensive gym. I great acupuncture spot in the city I go to within. You get a membership for like 100, 120 bucks a month. You get good sessions in, right? It's like I use my E stem machine. I have my red light. It's like I strategically have those things. It's not overwhelming, but I know that I have to use them. But for the most part, it's just me taking a little bit of time out to do it. And then I have my active. Active, which is that thought process of these small doses that go a long way that people think don't help, but they do. For instance, as we get older, connective tissue health is very important. What do we see? The way connective tissue responds is totally different than muscle. You need a lot less. There's a really good researcher on this, Keith Barr, but he basically talked about how adding. That's where like, a lot of the collagen and gelatin hype came from for recovery. Because he noticed that, oh, you could actually stimulate connective tissue, but after about 10 minutes or so, it actually becomes detrimental to it. So you just need pure connective tissue. Often sessions.
- [80:40]
B
And what is that?
- [80:40]
A
Jump rope. Jump rope and stretch for five to 10 minutes in the morning. Take. The key really is, and it's a little bit iffy, but take some collagen and some vitamin C an hour before you do it. Just jump rope for five to 10 minutes. Get a light stretch in. It helps improve your connective tissue. But for people, a lot of people, that's counterintuitive. Like, five minutes of jump rope's not gonna do anything. But it does a lot. And that builds up over time.
- [81:04]
B
See, that's the other thing that I think is so important too, to talk about, right? Like, we think that it all has to be these long, crazy strings. Like, I. I do believe that these short little opportunities to just get something in. You know what I mean? Like, you get 15 minutes. Like, you go sit on it. You go sit on the, the bike erg for 15 minutes and you get.
- [81:21]
A
It's, it's.
- [81:22]
B
That's shit.
- [81:23]
A
Yeah. Cause then what's happening now? Let's talk about it, right? Cause like, cardiovascular disease is the number one killer of both men and women. Now what are we doing? We're on a bike now. We elevate the heart rate a little bit, but we're not overly stressed. Kind of can also help control cortisol a bit. You get your lymph pumping. You're still working essentially on elasticity of your muscles because your blood has to pump. Right. Then your blood becomes more efficient. Right. So your heart becomes more efficient. They call that stroke volume. Your heart becomes more efficient at pumping out the blood to be able to reach to different areas. Then also what happens, you're not exceedingly sedentary for a lot of the blue collar, white collar crowd, that type of thing, because what happens, you don't want blood to pool in your lower half of your body because your butt, you're you. But you have to naturally pump it up because your body essentially, you can't. It just cuts it off. You have to naturally create that circulation. So basically you have now this whole circulation of what? But what's also happening with just that right now your immune system is now a little bit active because you are now having your blood flow through your body. So what is happening now? You have your white blood cells that then are looking at your body for pathogens. Right. So you have a better immune system. Yeah. And then your blood is giving nutrients to your whole body. And this little thing, that's just that little thing. And then of course, then we're dogs, bro. Then your training sessions get after. I get it. I'm not saying your training sessions shouldn't be hard. I'm just saying all of them don't have to be hard. But the ones that are hard. Come on, man. I play football too. I love that. You think I don't love going in there and getting a hard training session in, but I'm telling you, at this age, I feel a lot better than I did 10 years ago because I'm doing all those other things.
- [82:59]
B
What is your workouts? What is your, your programming look like now for you?
- [83:03]
A
I'm coming back from a meniscus injury, so I'm trying to. I've just picked up running again pretty good. So I'm happy about that. But for me, I look at it like this. I try to go, go to like a yoga class once a week if I can, when I'M in town, New York, I go to sky ting or I'll just do some stuff online. But I'm a big believer in polarized training. Right. So is that I. I think you do low intensity, steady state for longer periods, maybe throw a little intervals in there. But I look at it this, at least one day, one to two days of, of higher intensity intervals. Right. But there it's shorter. So that those workouts for me like the true working parts of the workouts, 30 minutes or less.
- [83:40]
B
So like, like, like echo bike intervals or.
- [83:42]
A
Sure of like, like a real intense bike. So basically there's like different kind of energy systems, whatever that you hit. But one of them are working intervals that are less than like 15 seconds, like air dying. I'm going 10 seconds hard, you know, 20 seconds recovery, going out for like 10 to 20 rounds. Like there's a very. But that the workout is short. Like people think those have to be long. The other, the other side of that is I make sure I get, get like long, longer intensity, steady state work in. But I call it add cardio. I'm not the guy unless I'm like training for a marathon. It's just gonna go run for like an hour, hour and a half. It's like I'll do like 10 minutes elliptical, 10 minute jog, 10 minute bike, 10 minute row, and I'll like go through that, you know, so. And then I end up doing like 75 minutes of medium lower to medium intensity work. But I'm not bored. Like I'll be, I'm, I'll admit it, I'm one of those guys that get bored if I'm just on the same thing the whole time. And then for strength training, I'm very big in. I do full body twice a week. And then I just do more of a mobility session that's just like working through different planes and unilateral base work. So for me, one of the big rep schemes. So basically key is for me it's like all right, one higher intensity cardio session, two lower to medium intensity cardio sessions, and then kind of, and then kind of two lifts. For one of the lower intensity cardio sessions, I kind of throw in a little bit more of like the mobility kind of unilateral single leg strength work. And it, I call it like hood aerobics where I'm just like, I'm constantly moving, but I'm kind of flossing the tissues underweight and like that. For me that's kind of just basically rehab one rep scheme that I've been loving as it relates to like strength compound work because I do do, because I do those two, those two sessions. One one mainly lower focus, another mainly upper focus is it's a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ladder. And my legs have never responded to anything like this. But it's basically you go to 75, 85%, you do three reps, you rest 15 seconds, 15 to 30 seconds, go to four, you do that all the way up to seven and then you rest for three minutes, three to five minutes and then you repeat that again, 75% 1 RM. Yeah, you try to go like yeah, 65 to 75%. No, don't go up to 85, 65 to 75%. But basically you kind of get the best of both worlds. It relates to volume while still getting strength, right? And then those longer rest periods allow you to regenerate. But you're not like I remember I used to be in the gym for so long doing those like heavy eight by eights, like old school gvt, that type of thing. Like as I've gotten older this one has been a little bit better on my body body. But yeah, those are the big ones I think strength, cardio and conditioning really. So you're hitting the different energy systems and then, and then, and then making sure you just work in like those good recovery based things. But for most people I think they could get away with a little less. That's my split. But my thought process is, and I haven't completely fleshed this one out yet but I actually think it's harder for us because we've been working out our whole life so our body is used to that baseline. So we got it, so we got to continue to do it or like make sure we don't go too far off. But for somebody that doesn't really work out and you're still quote unquote healthy or you have like decent biomarkers or whatever, you got to think like and not to go back to the drug thing but like. Can I ask you an honest question? How good did it feel when you did crack for the first time? Very good. Right, so think about, right, so think about if you never have exercised before and you're, and you give your body, that's like giving your body the best crack that you are. You are giving your body the best exercise, bro.
- [87:24]
B
Sell it man.
- [87:25]
A
You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like your body has never experienced that rush and you, and you so you don't have to give It a lot. So a lot of people that I try to explain was like, there's a fundamental aspects, of course, when I train that you can take, but you don't have to train like I have to train, you know? You know, that's what I'm saying. So a little bit does really go a long way. And of course, people should not do drugs. You should not do crack. Don't do crack. But I'm sorry, by the way, exercise is one hell of a drug, you know, or did Rick James.
- [87:57]
B
It is. It is, man. It is. Dude, this is such a good combo, man. We talked about so much. We covered a lot.
- [88:02]
A
A lot, a lot.
- [88:04]
B
I think whoever's listening has just got value. Lots of value. I appreciate you coming and dropping it.
- [88:10]
A
Dude. Dude. No, of course. Thank you for having me.
- [88:12]
B
And I know you're. You're flying all over the world, so, you know, being able to swing by means a lot.
- [88:16]
A
Yes, sir. Thank you.
- [88:18]
B
If people want to learn more about what you're doing and OCHO system and.
- [88:22]
A
Yeah.
- [88:22]
B
Where could they find you?
- [88:23]
A
Yeah, O. Holder on Instagram and Twitter. I'm working on a book, so hopefully when I design yourself with Simon and Schuster. So I'm trying to build out a whole little ecosystem around that. So please keep an eye out. And then if you're ever in New York, you do events with exercise, snacks. Hopefully we could do something and yeah, just. Just pull up, make movement. A movement. Take care of yourself. Awesome.
- [88:47]
B
Well, damn. That was a good one.
- [88:50]
A
That was a good one.
- [88:52]
B
Oh, man. Yeah. Joe Holder, the man, the myth, the legend, dropping by to drop some gems on the creatures that have it, podcast it. You know, I appreciate you guys tuning into these. This, this platform is something that I do because I absolutely love it. I do not make a single dollar doing this podcast. I love doing this podcast because I. I'm able to connect with individuals and really, you know, take tools home myself. But also ultimately, and I think what is most gratifying for me is share with you. So, again, you know the drill. The rent that I ask you to pay here is to pass this podcast off to someone who you love. Pass it off to a friend, pass it off to a family member, pass it off to a foe. Bury the hatchet on this podcast, man. To send this to somebody who you are just absolutely angry at and just say, yo, I'm just going to drop this off with you because you never know. That could just be. That could be the beginning of a new chapter. I appreciate you guys. If you would be so generous to give us a little review. A good one, ideally, maybe a five star rating. And subscribe. I'd be a best friend. Until the next one, y'.
- [90:07]
A
All.
- [90:08]
B
Peace.