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Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
From Victim to Warrior Mindset w/ Ben Bergeron (Mental Toughness Secrets)
01:25:45
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- [00:00]
Mike
Have you run into like an incredible athlete that was a victim.
- [00:04]
Ben Bergeron
Even the strongest among us are going to feel like victims at some point. The goal is to spend as little time there as we can. And we want to do is try to reframe. It always comes back to that, reframing. What we don't want to do is try to reframe a pessimist into a warrior. You took somebody that's incredibly physically unfit was like, okay, so here's the 500 pound deadlift and I'm gonna set the treadmill to a five minute mile and let's get at it. Work with where they are and just edge people up. The saying in strength conditioning is we work with people at their psychological and physical tolerances at their threshold. Mental fitness doesn't happen with a flip of a switch. It might take months, years or decades. What we wanna do is plant seeds and then drip, drip, drip water.
- [00:51]
Mike
Have you seen a difference there in individuals where like there are people that get to that level, that warrior status, but it is more about the win than the challenge.
- [01:00]
Ben Bergeron
How do you become the one? It was all about obsession and imbalance and sacrificing all for the gold. Fulfillment and happiness are not on the other sides of accolades, awards and trophies. An entrepreneur straight out of New York City, Michael Chernow was cracking.
- [01:28]
Mike
Ben Bergeron. I. So I've been a fan for a long time way before I started doing CrossFit because I was just so, as, as someone who was not a professional athlete but used athletics and performance as just, I mean for hobby for sure. But, but ultimately it's something that like kind of kept me alive. Being a former addict, I use fitness and nutrition and wins like that to, to balance my insanity. And so I, you know, I think CrossFit is one of the most. How would I explain for someone who watches it from the outside or watched it from the outside, it was like this sport that was so hard to put a finger on because there were so many different things going on at all times. Like real CrossFit athletes. And you have coached the world's best CrossFit athletes, Games winners, multiple athletes that have won the games. The caliber and variety of, of, of skills you need to be not proficient at but like expert at, at the highest, highest, highest level is insane. It's like it's a really wild sport, right? Like you are expected to know how to do every single form of athletics. I'm surprised that there was never like a basketball game, like a slam dunk contest at a CrossFit Games.
- [03:04]
Ben Bergeron
That would have been crazy entertaining. They should have done that. They did do a softball throw one year and they were like, okay, these guys aren't actual real like that type of athletes, but we're crazy fit. Maybe you can't throw a softball, but yeah, it's a wild sport.
- [03:18]
Mike
You're right. You, so you, you are, you are one of the greatest strength and conditioning coaches in the, in, in the world. And, and, and, and you honed in on CrossFit for a long time and now comp train is, is what your business is. And, and pe, you know, people all over the world are, are following this kind of, of, of training. But really what I was most interested in when I started really following your journey was the way you talked about mindset and how important that was. And, and I'm sure you, and I'm sure is for you when you, when you coach. So I want to dig into that because you are not, you have, you're someone who's, who's coached Olympic athletes, obviously CrossFit game athletes, Navy SEALs, just across the board, just extremely high performing human beings. And I would imagine that mindset is something that you hone in on. Can you dig into that a little bit?
- [04:23]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. There's. So whether it's athletics, business, relationships or life, it comes down to sort of the multifactorial, which is what is your physical capacity? What's your emotional capacity? Are you easily rattled? Can you handle hard? And your mental capacity, can you stay focused? That's really what it all comes down to. Physical, mental and emotional. So for me as a performance coach, for me just to stop at the physical kind of would leave two thirds of the athletic potential on the table. Your athletic potential is essentially your, I should say your performance is your potential, min. Potential in all those categories, minus distraction. So when you talk about the mental aspect, that's really what it comes down to is how good are you? Right? How good are you at Mike, at fill in the blank, at competing in CrossFit, at doing a podcast, at running your business? It is your potential, which is determined by a bunch of different factors. Your upbringing, your coaching, your DNA, your environment, your, the length of time you've been doing it, your age. There's so many factors that go into your actual capacity. You can think of it as a, a bucket. How big is your bucket? Your potent, your, your, your capacity, your to perform is your potential. The bucket minus distractions. You think of distractions as holes in the bucket. So we want to do is try to get Athletes to not be rattleable, distracted or anything that usually when people start this journey, it starts with the physical, right? We gotta be able to get them to, in our sport that we coach CrossFit, it's. We gotta be able to run a mile faster, row a 2k better. Be able to ruck a marathon, be able to do hundreds of pull ups and hundreds of burpees. Deadlift 500 pounds squat, 500 pounds clean and jerk, 350. Like that's kind of like you get into the ball game with those numbers. From there, people are like, all right, now we got to get people mentally tougher. And what coaches will do is they'll make them tougher, not mentally tougher. Tougher is your ability to withstand physical discomfort. So they do things like, we'll train in the, you know, wrestling coaches, we'll have them train in the heat, we'll have them train with music that they don't like. We'll have them train at altitude. We'll have them train and they make the physical part more uncomfortable. That's not mental toughness, that's more physical toughness. Now you have your physical performance ability, you have your physical toughness, your, your mental toughness, if you will. The mental side of training comes into literally, how good are you avoiding distraction? And I'm not talking about heat or altitude or the cold. I'm talking about the much quieter things, the things that you're battling that no one will ever know about. It is judgment about yourself.
- [07:37]
Mike
Childhood traumas, child for sure.
- [07:39]
Ben Bergeron
Huge one that's going to influence that, right? Your childhood traumas, the pressure that you feel to perform, how much you think about the outcomes rather than right now, what you, how well you deal with an adversity that has nothing with the physical burning legs. Our athletes are the athletes. Our sport are phenomenal. With that heartbeat of, you know, 200 beats, you're hard trying to rip through your chest. Phenomenal at that. Something like, you didn't perform well in event one and you are thinking that you're going to podium at the games and now you're in 23rd place. What does that do to you? That's the mental stuff. The things of how are you? Well, are you, how good are you at saying, of pushing away all of those distractions, the ones that quietly, quietly eat away at you. Not the loud ones, loud's easy. The quiet ones, the ones that eat people away, those are the holes in the bucket that no one knows about. So, yeah, we create a mental framework because what you need to be able to do is have a language to be able to talk about it. It's such this. It's on a subconscious level. If it was conscious it'd be logical. We have a really buttoned up conversation about just like we could about what's the progression we want to take to get you from 300 to a 350 pound cleaning jerk. That's just essentially physiology and math. Really easy to have that conversation. Training frequency, training duration loads intensities. How are we going to adapt between the training sessions?
- [09:06]
Mike
Very easily write it out on paper,
- [09:08]
Ben Bergeron
totally put it in. We talk about things that you don't realize are influencing your performance that live on a subconscious level because you might not even be able to recognize the childhood trauma. How do we have that conversation? So it really comes down to understanding the language that we use. So language is the thing that's verbalizing the mental and it gives me hints as to what's going on.
- [09:36]
Mike
So give me an example.
- [09:37]
Ben Bergeron
Well, your, your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions dictate your behavior. Your behavior is going to determine where you end up. Right. So someone says like man, I just suck at muscle ups. Okay. That's right there. Fixed mindset. Right. So we know that like it's a predetermined thing that you are judging yourself based off of where you are today. And you think this is either like you're good at it or not. So this is a pass fail for you. Instead of we would reframe. So we don't go as like sit down and go okay, sounds like you have some childhood trauma. We don't do that. You just sort of slowly, continually keep turning the dials.
- [10:14]
Mike
So will you say something like hey, like let's reframe that.
- [10:18]
Ben Bergeron
Yep. I wouldn't even. Yeah. And I wouldn't even doubt. It's just like hey, you're not good at muscle ups yet.
- [10:23]
Mike
Interrupting this episode to share with you that Creatures of Habit finally launched our protein bar. It's called the Daily Bar. It's made with 20 grams of plant based protein. 3 grams of creatine. Yes, you heard that right. It also has 3 grams of creatine.
- [10:40]
Ben Bergeron
It's.
- [10:41]
Mike
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- [12:48]
Ben Bergeron
Making gains, right?
- [12:49]
Mike
Making gains. So hard to do in the mental toughness arena. Because someone could say, oh, yeah, well, I'm mentally tough because I'm able to withstand the pain of getting through this physical experience.
- [13:03]
Ben Bergeron
That's not mental toughness, right? That's physical, right?
- [13:06]
Mike
And, but I think that, that a lot of people confuse that, right? And so I did this crazy. I did this crazy Navy SEAL simulation 75 Hour Boot Camp thing, right? And I've been through a lot of hard shit physically. And just like in life, it was like one of the hardest things I've ever done. And 35 guys showed up, nine finished. And I learned that in that process, like, it would be really hard for me to quit based on a physical. Like, I think some people just have that ability to just power through pain physically. And some of the guys that showed up to this thing were just way stronger than I Were like, just bigger, tougher guys. There was. There was Navy SEALS that showed up, and the Navy SEALs that showed up did actually finish. But. But what I learned there was at about like hour 60, my body was thrashed. The skin on my arms and on my knee, like, like my. My quads and my knees were completely scaped, like, skinned off. I had no. It was all red and basically blood because they had us crawl through this pit for 10 hours straight. And. And at hour 60 or so, I realized that, like, all I had to do was laugh. Like, that was my way to turn on the mental fortitude switch because I was giving in physically, I was giving in. At a certain point I was like, this is. I don't know. And then I realized that there's this whole other pillar that you're talking about, which is how am I receiving this, how am I responding, or in worst case, reacting to this? And for some reason in that moment, I was like, dude, all you gotta do is smile. And that was it. And for the next 15 hours, I think another seven guys dropped off and these Navy SEALs that were leading this thing thought I was completely out of my mind because I was smiling the whole time. And it was crazy for me too. But, like, I was able to convince myself that, like, how I am, my perception of what is happening, to happening to me physically, is going to dictate how I either react or respond to the experience. It has nothing to do with my physical body because I. I felt capable there. But I do believe that the mental peace is what breaks or makes in any aspect of life. And that's why I've honed in so heavily on like, ritual and habit. So when it comes to habit for you and like, how you like to talk to people that you coach, are there certain things that you think are more can optimize output or performance based on little wins?
- [16:41]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah. So what your experience there, where you just started laughing, what's happening there is you learned to let go and your body released it in laughter. Where you let go of was everything. And that's really what we're trying to get our athletes or anyone to do, as you said or in life, it doesn't matter, is are you able to let go? And it's this weird dichotomy because when you think of let go, if you want to hold on so tight and what they want to, like, grit their teeth through it, there's an aspect of that for sure. And that's probably what the first, you know, 60 hours were a lot of Teeth gritting. It's. There's benefit to that. Kind of like going, f this. I can. Like there's something there. But at some point, to reach the highest point of performance, you have to let go. Judgment is the thing that holds most of us back more so than physical capability. So it's, as you said, is it mostly mental? I think it's. I think it's a hundred or what percentage that's over. I think it's a hundred percent mental. Because when you think of it, everything that we're doing is a choice. You are the accumulation of the choices you've made in your life. Those choices are mental, not physical. So if that's the case, it's all mental. Am I going to go to the gym? Am I going to get up? Am I going to sleep in? Am I going to Netflix? Am I going to drink? Am I going to party? Am I going to go with those bad crowd? Am I going with the good crowd? Everything that we do is a Choice. So it's 100% mental. There's a hierarchy to the mentality, which is the lowest level, which we're trying to do. Maybe, maybe just back up a little bit. When we say mental, like we. This is where we have to give a language to it. That too is too vague in and of itself. Because if I say mental to you, it's gonna be something different than if I say mental to someone else. Your mentality is the story you're telling yourself. So what's the story you're telling yourself? And it's going to fall on the spectrum five different levels. The lowest level is going to be that of a victim. If you enter into that Navy SEAL training camp with a victim mindset, you will not last the first six hours. You won't. It's going to be. It's going to be over. The victim mindset is the worst thing that we could do to ourselves now. It's a victim mindset is different than being a victim.
- [19:09]
Mike
So talk about victim mindset.
- [19:10]
Ben Bergeron
So there are victims in the world that atrocities have been placed upon them that are no fault of their own. Those are victims. But the victim mindset is actually a choice. There are plenty of victims that have chosen not to play victim, but to take control and not let that trauma define them. The victim looks outward and blames external circumstances, people, events. The other side of the political spectrum. Where I grew up, my parents, it's all their fault. Woe is me. I am the victim. By the way, this is an ego play. The way they Feel important. It's weird because we think of ego usually as like, I'm the effing best. Ego works on all levels. All the ego wants is I am special. Not, I'm the best. I am special. So the victim mindset is, I am special. You don't understand me. It's so unlucky that I got put in this situation. That's the worst place that we could possibly hang out. What we want to do is change that narrative in our mind, the story we're telling ourselves to one notch above, which is the pessimist. The pessimist isn't woe is me. It's just, this sucks. I'll plow through this. But this, this, I don't like it. This sucks. I wish it was a different way. I don't think this is going to work out. This is terrible. Go to the gym. Go to one of these, like, CrossFit gyms. And you, like, blame the people programming the workouts. Like, this workout sucks. I hate that you hear it a lot.
- [20:37]
Mike
Burpees suck.
- [20:38]
Ben Bergeron
Burpees suck. I hate, like, I hate this. Right? So we have the victim. We want to try to change it. But that's better than they programmed this because they know I don't like burpees. Right? Kind of ridiculous. But then we want to do is move up towards really common language. The optimist. The optimist is the future is going to be brighter than the past. It is. Things will work out. Don't worry about it. It'll be fine. That's where most people stop. That's not a great place to stop. Because what the optimist does, they lack something called bracing and kind of like all scenario planning. So if I was to hire a salesman, I'd rather hire a pessimist than an optimist. At least the pessimist will go, what's all the reasons they're going to say no. And they'll plan for those. The optimist goes like, don't worry about it, guys. We're going to go in there, we're going to knock them dead. And they don't fully prepare. They're sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns in the backyard, a joy to be around. But when shit actually hits the fan, they got nothing to fall back on. This is why the Stockdale Paradox. When people go into prison or war camp, it's the pessimists outlive the optimists. We'll be out by Christmas. Don't worry, guys. Comes and goes. We'll be out by Valentine's Day come and goes. Goes all the way next Christmas, and they're gone. But the people that live the longest are not the pessimists or the optimists. It's the realist. The realist goes, we're in effing prison. This is gonna be gnarly. This is gonna be tough. Let's buckle down. It was named after General Stockdale, who got shot down, spent five years in a prisoner war camp. When he got shot down and captured by the enemy, he said to himself, it's time to enter the world of Epictetus. Epictetus, stoic philosopher that basically was like, hey, what we need to do really, really well is embrace reality. And guess what? In life, there are good and bad things, right? There's gonna be good days and bad days. There's gonna be times that suck and are really hard to work through. There's gonna be other days that are great. When we work with our athletes, we work in the rule of thirds. Third of the time, this is gonna be awesome. You're pring. You feel good, tons of energy. Slept well last night. A third of the time, it's gonna be normal, average. Nothing to write home about, but okay. And the other third of time, it's gonna suck. You don't want to quit. That's the reality of doing anything. Excellent is you have a third that are brutal. Like, you running, trying to be an entrepreneur. A third of it is going to be brutal. You don't want to quit. Third of it, hey, like, status quo. I got my job, got my thing. It's better than, you know, working for the man. I got my freedom, and, yeah, it's hard, but I enjoy it. And the other third of the time is, like, this freaking awesome. I'm doing things. I'm making improvements. I'm. I'm making a dent in the universe, and I get to, like, improve people's lives. That's the reality. And this is where, you know, the. The story that comes along with this is the. The wise old. The wise old farmer, who's Most people know the story, but has a horse, runs away, and the village people come running up to him and go, I'm so sorry you lost your horse. And he goes, yeah, maybe we'll see. The next day, the horse comes back, and he brings back three other stallions. Villagers come running up and like, oh, what good luck. That's amazing. He's like, yeah, yeah, we'll see. The next day, the hus. The. The son, his only son is trying to tame One of the wild stallions falls off and breaks leg. Village people again. What bad luck. This is terrible. He's like, we'll see. Village goes into a war, the people come and recruit all the able bodied young men to go and fighting this bloody war. They can't recruit the sun because he's broken. The idea is we don't have enough perspective to know whether things are actually good or bad. Yet we want to storytell about it so badly. We are narrative storytelling machines. It's what we want to do is that's how we work and our brains work as human beings. We want to give, we want villains, we want heroes, we want all of this stuff. When in reality, if we do that, what we're actually doing is think about pessimist, victim, optimist. All them are storytelling. The realist just accepts it. If you think what storytelling is, if you are a good storyteller, you're great at creating drama. That's what we're doing. We're creating drama for ourselves. Now you got to deal with this massive drama in your life. Is it real? Maybe, maybe not, right? Your kid gets stage 4 cancer. Probably a big piece of drama that we gotta deal with. Your iPhone won't connect to the Bluetooth in your car. Probably not that big a deal. But what do we do? Oh my God, I can't. And we make a big deal out of it. So what is the actual mechanistic way that we do this? We get good at dealing with small inconveniences. Wanna know what mental toughness is? How good are you at handling things that don't line up with your expectations? Period. That's all it is. So we now we have the victim, the pessimist, the optimist, the realist. And if we can work hard at this. And by the way, you don't kind of live at one. We all have this sort of default setting, right? But we kind of fluctuate. And what's cool about the way that we train? You've done this. When you go and do a workout with thrusters, burpees and, you know, running 800 meter runs, you're gonna fluctuate through all these levels in one workout. You see the workout, one thing pops through your head, you start it another, and you're fluctuating constantly, sometimes multiple levels inside of a one or two second period. What's really cool is can you become aware of it? That's all we're trying to do, is become aware of our thoughts. If we play that game long enough of Am I aware of my thoughts? Can I hear the narrative that's happening and then question it, not accept it at face value? Your reality is shaped so differently than mine.
- [26:37]
Mike
Meaning giving yourself an opportunity, getting to the place where you can have self awareness.
- [26:42]
Ben Bergeron
That's right.
- [26:42]
Mike
And then giving yourself an opportunity to metabolize as opposed to just react to.
- [26:48]
Ben Bergeron
You used the words before so beautifully. You, you actually like double down on it. The difference between reacting and responding. If we do this enough and we pay attention to our thoughts enough, create the space to question our thoughts, can we reframe these, this narrative, can we try to work it up the ladder? You're not gonna go from victim to realist, but can we start to work with it then? What we can do is in certain circumstances we can touch what's called the fifth level, the warrior mindset. What the warrior, the true warrior wants more than anything else is not to win with a true warrior. After the true warrior dominates his local dojo, think of like the true Japanese Japanese 1800 samurai. Once he dominates the dojo, what does he do?
- [27:38]
Mike
I don't know, what does he do once he dominates his. Opens up his own, he goes in search of.
- [27:43]
Ben Bergeron
He. He roams the earth looking for a worthy foe. Because what he wants is the challenge. He is all about becoming the very best version of himself. The only way he can do that is through challenge. This is where competition lives. This is the essence of competition. Without competition, you cannot find your best self. If you were to live on Mars, you know, Matt Damon, Martian, and you were trying to become the best version of yourself, you would fall short. It is only when others or the environment push you that you can actually adapt. This is Origin of species Darwin 101. Like the, the, the. It is not the strongest, but the quick, the, the best adaptation that survives. We need that adversity. We need that push and tug. We need challenges, we need competition. So what then happens is we get to reframe competition completely from am I winning, am I losing? To how good am I handling this challenge that doesn't need to reside inside the competitive setting. Every challenge we face in life, we can put ourselves through that prism. How good am I at handling this challenge? Am I playing the victim? Am I being overly optimistic about this? Am I the realist? Or am I bringing this a warrior? Like, I actually like this not going to happen when you get the big ones right. Like, you know, you get in a car accident, your legs leaking blood, like that's a big. I don't expect you have a Warrior mindset. In that scenario, the samurai would just saying that there are people that do. Marcus Lutrell, lone survivor. He was there, right? There are human beings that have reached this. When you get stage four cancer, when you lose a child, like, these are big ones that I'm not expecting anyone. But what we're trying to do is for the small and the medium challenges in life. Can we start to work? Because those are lightweights. We're in the mental gym and now we're training. Just like you build muscles through repetition, it's the same thing with our mindset. We build our mindset through repetition, but you only get to do it. And this is a weird thing. You're gonna have the challenges regardless. They're coming for all of us. All of us are gonna face the challenges. If you don't walk into the mental dojo, literally go, I'm aware of my thought pattern here. I'm not riding the default operating system. I'm popping out of the matrix and looking around and going, huh? This is what my thoughts are doing. It's called metacognition, the ability to have thoughts about your thoughts. Once you've done that, you're now training. You're lifting the weights mentally. If you do not do that and you just go down the default reaction path, which is built into us by biology for survival mechanisms. So you have to override it. You have to override the biology if you do that. Now we are training. This is mental training. What.
- [30:59]
Mike
So what would be a technique? I've got two questions. One, what would be a technique for someone to begin this process of what? It sounds to me like every time I go through something that I hadn't gone through before or performed better at something that I've done before, but really felt like I have progressed, I. The volume on my self awareness just kind of turns up a notch.
- [31:31]
Ben Bergeron
Love it.
- [31:31]
Mike
When I, you know, do something like breath work that's really hard, super hard. Have some sort of emotional breakthrough. I don't. I, I just think about it as just like that little knob. Right. Like it just turns it up a little bit. So for someone who is looking to potentially maybe scratch the surface of realist or warrior.
- [31:59]
Ben Bergeron
Yep.
- [32:01]
Mike
What kind of techniques would you suggest?
- [32:03]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah, it's incredibly simple. But don't confuse simple with easy. And it's not a practice. It's not meditation, it's not breath work, it's not journaling. It's as simple as you use the word, which is, it's the awareness. And the awareness is I'VE been triggered. So what happens is it. It. It follows in a sequence where you are triggered there is a reaction, emotional reaction that happens instantaneously. Biology that leads to a physical response which then reinforces the emotional. It creates what's either a sewer cycle or a success cycle. So it's a chain reaction. What we want to do is whenever we feel ourselves triggered, can we get good at being in tune with that? You called self awareness. And I love that you get good at understanding when the biology has changed, when you start to feel and we've all. You get a text from your boss that says, hey, first thing Monday morning, can we chat? Either your stomach, your chest, your head. Something changes when those things happen. That's a triggering moment. Can we get good at understanding when we've been triggered? Because we're on a normal path. Homeostasis that is taking us out of that. And once we do that, then that's the. That's the moment that we don't ride the wave. Instead we go, whoa. Create the space between stimulus and response. Right? Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is your freedom to choose. Viktor Frankl. Your freedom to choose. Text from your boss Sunday afternoon. First thing tomorrow morning. Can we chat? What happens? You feel a pit in your stomach, you feel a tightness in your neck. You can start to get a headache. Almost a biological shift because what's happening is trigger. There is a emotional which. That emotional is now hormonal, which creates the physical change. A biology shift change. You're going from parasympathetic to a sympathetic nervous system. You are now in fight orf flight. Your body is preparing you for that moment. What we want to do is can we pull ourselves back? And then it becomes what tools work for you? Is it some breath work? Is it like create space? Because what we're doing at that point is storytelling. We're creating drama. Oh my God, my boss wants to talk to me. Because fill in a blank and your body will. It's going to spin. Going to spin and it's going to spin. All of those things are ultimately outside of your control.
- [34:48]
Mike
How have you trained yourself to give your. To. To. To pause and give yourself.
- [34:53]
Ben Bergeron
It's like we all wear these bracelets. We all wear bracelets that say, never whine, never complain, never make excuses. So what you do is you want to catch yourself. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Actions repeated are your behaviors. Behaviors determine who you become. Right? Are you a person that meditates? Are you a person that goes for runs. Are you a person that just scrolls on social media and does video games forever? Like those are actions. It's going to determine who you are that outworks everybody. So we want to do is realize that that starts in the brain. That's hard to identify because it's quiet and messy. So can we get it to, can we become aware of our words? Listen to the words that you're saying. And this is where I reframed it in the beginning. You can't do muscle ups yet. And the trick and the tool and the way that I've tried to do this as much as possible, I try to do as many of the things I can, right. I try to journal and I do breath work and I try to meditate and I try to, you know, read what I can about psychology and spirituality and try to become really in tune with this three part system, right? Mind, body, spirit, call it that last piece what you want. But the biggest thing by far and away is can you become aware of how your mind is going on this default operating system, which is telling yourself stories that are not true. We all have so many biases built into us. Biggest. One of the biggest ones is confirmation bias. If I am a victim, I want to look at the world and confirm the fact that I am a victim. I'm going to search for reasons that I am a victim. If I have a warrior mindset, I'm going to search the world for challenges for me that I am excited to face, not overcome. It is the development of our character that matters above all else.
- [36:57]
Mike
You know, it's really interesting. I, and, and I've come across many people like this and I think, I mean my mother for sure and, and for years my sister, until she made a massive shift in the beginning of the pandemic. But it's really, really interesting that there are people, probably more people fall into this camp than not this camp that are addicted to the chaos. So they complain about all the things in their life and if things, if the dust settles, for whatever reason, if they live a chaotic life, because chaotic people tend to attract chaos, right? They look for it and if there's no fires, they pull out a matchbook and just start dropping matches. And, and it's, it's, it's. It's wild to think that someone who can spend their whole life talking about, or the majority of their life talking about all the things that are happening to them, to them, and then
- [38:03]
Ben Bergeron
if
- [38:04]
Mike
you really look at it, they are typically the catalyst and culprit of Igniting all these things. Right. So like, is that the, is that the victim? Basically, is that the person that's walking around the victim? So what do you do with a victim? Have you run into a great athlete? Whether they're pretend, obviously not at an elite level, because I would assume it's hard to get to an elite level as a victim. But like, have you run into like an incredible athlete that was a victim?
- [38:36]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah. And I want to just preface it with we all have pieces of that. We all, like, even the strongest among us are going to feel like victims at some point. The goal is to spend as little time there as we can. And so even like in a singular workout, a singular conversation, we might bounce through a few of these different levels. We all have sort of a preset, but then we kind of fluctuate. It's hard to kind of move from one extreme to the other. So if you're sort of a pessimist, you'll spend time as victim. And then every now and then you might be like, oh, this might work out and then it doesn't and you go back to it. To answer your question more specifically in terms of have I spent time with it, the answer is yes. Because everyone spends some time there and we want to do is try to reframe. It always comes back to that, reframing. What we don't want to do is try to reframe a pessimist into a warrior or even into a, like, somebody's really bummed out. They're the ones lighting all the matches and creating the drama around their lives. Trying to move them from that to up too many notches is not going to work. We move up one notch, it'd be similar as like you walk in somebody who's incredibly. What we're talking about is mental fitness. Imagine if you took somebody that's incredibly physically unfit. It was like, okay, so here's the 500 pound deadlift and I'm gonna set the treadmill to a five minute mile and let's get at it. Recipe for disaster. Same type of thing. When it's like a victim, if you try to get them to be like, hey, it'll be fine, don't worry about it. Like, actually life is pretty good. It's gonna not gonna work. Like, hey, listen, this wasn't about you. That guy's just a dick. Right? You're moving to the pessimist, not about you. That it's about just like, hey, some people are mean, some people are this, your boss is a jerk. Like, work with where they are and just edge people up. The saying in strength conditioning is we work with people at their psychological and physical tolerances, at their threshold. So we don't want to do is kind of go like, throw a wet blanket on them and be like, hey, just. You're being ridiculous. Stop that. Just edge a little bit. As you said, like, turn a diet like what you did yourself. We're trying to turn a dial ever so much and it doesn't need to happen. Just like fitness, physical, mental fitness doesn't happen with a flip of a switch. It might take months, years, or decades, but we want to do is plant seeds and then drip, drip, drip water over time. If we try and do it too fast, it's not going to happen. Just like if we try to get someone fit in days or weeks, you know, that takes months, quarters, years to do.
- [41:30]
Mike
I, I love the book, the Tim Grover book, Relentless. Have you read that book?
- [41:37]
Ben Bergeron
Yep.
- [41:39]
Mike
So Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, I think there's a couple of other. Maybe Tiger woods is. Is. There are characters in that book that, you know, people that, that Tim Grover have worked with, and they're like, Michael Jordan specifically spent a lot of time talking about Michael Jordan and his mindset. The interesting thing about his mindset was, and I'm sure, you know, certain degrees of. Of separation from the actual man. Right. Written through a book. My interpretation of what Tim Grober, you know, how he received him. But it seems like at that level, all he cared about was the win. I like it, doesn't speak much about challenge because he didn't feel necessarily challenged. So, like, I've seen that happen with some athletes where they get to that place where they master the dojo and then they go out and they're just like on the prowl, looking for the next climb, but don't necessarily appreciate the challenge as much as they want to ravenously swallow the win. Like, have you seen a difference there in individuals where, like, there are people that get to that level, that warrior status, but it is more about the win than the challenge.
- [43:18]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah. And I think that's. They. They've certainly. Achieved a lot. The way that society would give them a lot of accolades, a lot of attention and a lot of praise because they are in search of the win. The one thing Jordan's done as well as anybody, Kobe was close as well, is they didn't place judgment in front. Jordan saying was, why would I. Why would I think about missing a shot I haven't taken yet? You would jump into Any challenge at any time, because it wasn't about. It wasn't necessarily about winning or losing. It was about the competition for him. And he won a lot because of that. He wanted over and over again. I think if we stop short at. I need the wins for the validation because Jordan is one of the most successful athletes in any sport ever. You know, I've been, I've been lucky enough to talk with some people that work with Michael Jordan. No one would say Michael Jordan is a happy man. So it depends on what we're chasing. So in the beginning, I think it makes a lot of sense to chase. This is essentially my own path and pursuit. I have a podcast, I wrote a book called Chasing Excellence that came about when I was working with world champions and trying to get people to be the best in the world at something. And the pursuit was, how do we do that? How do you become the one? Like not the best, one of the best, but the best in the world. The sport that we participated in was the highest participation sport in the world. A quarter of a million people started, got to where it was half, almost half a million of the half a million people. How do you become the one? It was all about obsession and imbalance and sacrificing all for the gold. Fulfillment and happiness are not on the other sides of accolades, awards and trophies. And to be the very best in something in the world, you have to live with incredible amounts of imbalance. And that is not what I think is a recipe for a fulfilled life. Quote, the good life, the best possible life. And this is where my shift has changed. I'm still continuing to try to chase excellence, but is not to be the very best at one thing in the world.
- [46:16]
Mike
Do you think you would, do you think now stepping away from that sport and coaching people to be the best, do you think you would be able to do that now?
- [46:28]
Ben Bergeron
No way. That's why I stepped away. No way, no way.
- [46:32]
Mike
You wouldn't want to do it.
- [46:34]
Ben Bergeron
That's why I left. Yeah, I had a, a different perspective on what it meant to live a really, really good life. And a really, really good life is counter cultural if you follow what society and culture says is a good life. My belief is just, that's my belief you're going to end up empty. Empty, er, than you would if you did not follow the normal crowd. Because what is the, what is, what do they, what does society reward? Money, Money, prestige, power, beauty, fame. When, when you think about, when you analyze people on their deathbeds, which I think is the Best like if you're going to learn from somebody, learn from somebody that's at the last breaths of their life with the ultimate perspective. And when you analyze those people and you start to do the research to figure out, I haven't done it personally, but I've dug into it. They're not talking about any of those things. They're talking about, I wish I had the courage. This is the number one regret of the dying. I wish I had the courage to live a life true to myself. Not. And this what they don't do this. I'm filling in blanks here. Not what society said. Society, my parents. What I thought was success. It's, it's, it's. This is, it's, it's. I get it. Because I'm a. I'm a. It's built into our biology, so it's in our DNA. You know, we are an ant marching right. We are one of the 8 billion ants that have been around for hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years. That ant is sort of preconditioned to do certain things just like we are for our survival. We are in this new sort of world in the last hundred years. Our biology is not caught up. Up until 100 or 200 years ago, everything was predicated on what do you have? If you have two cows, your chance of survival are better. If you have five acres of land, your chances of having a good crop get better. If you have a good crop, your chance of making it through a harsh winter are better. If you have more cows and land, you're more attractive to the spouse, potential mate. Now you get to have healthier offspring. It's like all of this is like just built. But it doesn't serve us today. If we want to thrive, not survive, we need to pop up out of the Matrix and go, wait a minute, is it really about moving from 10 cows to 11? I mean, is it really about earning? Instead of $250,000, earning $350,000? There is no zero research that there's any measures of happiness as you move up that ladder. Yet what we all do is move the goalposts. So this is what goes back to the Michael Jordan thing. After he retired, he couldn't stop. So what did he do? He got back in the game, came back and did it again. After he retired the second game, what do you do? Because all wrapped up in this thing. Then all of a sudden one day in practice, he actually went on the court, took all the scrubs and beat the starting five because he has to like continue to do this. He comes in the locker room and throws tantrums and this, I don't mean to badmouth Michael Jordan.
- [50:27]
Mike
No, no, but it's, but it's public knowledge.
- [50:29]
Ben Bergeron
It's the idea. It's the idea is this pinnacle of success that we all admire. Be like Mike, what are we chasing when he's not happy? So what are the things that the dying. The first one is true life, true to myself. The next is, wish I didn't spend so much time in the office. Next one is I wish I had more better relationships. Next is I wish I had worked on hobbies and done other things that I found true joy in. Like, I think there's a, there's a lot of value in creating enough space and being curious.
- [51:07]
Mike
You know, I. Growing up in the 80s and 90s, for me, you grew up in the 80s and 90s. There was only one thing that equated to success and happiness in the 80s and 90s. As a kid growing up in New York City, only one thing, Money. Period. Done. There was no conversation about relationships and happiness. There was no conversation about balance and happiness. It just didn't exist. It was like, what's your bank account look like? Where do you live? What does your partner look like? All those things were money related, right? And coming up in New York as a, as an entrepreneur, this was like early day Gary V. Hustle culture, right? Like if you are not working 16 hours a day, good luck on winning it big or making being successful. Like if you, if you remember what you did three days ago because you have, you've only slept three hours a night, that, that means you're going to make it, you know, like that's what you got to do. And by the way, when I launched my first business, I signed right up. Signed right up. 18 hour days, seven days a week, two years straight, just still working hard, working out, finding ways to get fitness in, just around the clock. Until my wife was like, is this what it's going to be? And I was like, like, heads are spinning. Not, you know, she's like, I don't even know you. Who are you? Where have you been? And she was like talking to me like this. And I was just like, yeah, just gone out to lunch, couldn't hear her, didn't know what to say in response. Now, I mean, it's taken me some time, but now, 16 years into my entrepreneurial journey, I'm so happy to say that I have, I work seven, eight hours a day. I would be terrified to say that like 10 years ago, like I would be ashamed, I would feel guilty. My favorite thing to do in life is have dinner with my wife and kids at six o' clock every night and be on vacation.
- [53:25]
Ben Bergeron
Love that.
- [53:26]
Mike
I would never say that 10 years ago because if I didn't love the work, I'm not gonna make it. And I think, you know, like, I really do think what you're saying is the freaking truth, right? Like now I'm not saying you should go. You know, maybe for some, like I do think that there should be a level of ambition and there should be a passion and, and, and potentially for some an obsession that you're excited to gun for. But if there's no balance, like when I hear there's no such thing as work life balance, I'm like, that's just simply not true. It's just not true. Maybe if you want to be a billionaire. But like, I also think that like the way I've conducted and this is so new for me, right, like within the last five years where I find so much enjoyment being able to go on vacation because I've figured out a way to turn this, the light switch on as a dad and a husband and have that light shine as bright as when I need to turn the switch on to be a hard charging entrepreneur for eight hours a day, five days a week. I'm a nine to fiver, you know, I just am, I own my own business. But like I am a proud nine to fiver, right? Like who could, like would that ever. I would get crucified for saying that. But like that's the truth. And I think the 9 to 5 was done for a reason, right? It was created for a reason. And that reason is about 16 hours a day we are awake. Eight hours in the middle of the day is what the time, the time. That should be the right amount of time to allocate towards being building four hours before that and four hours after that. Equal times eight and eight are the times that you should be spending with the people you love most. Laughing and loving and hugging and like enjoying life. And that's why 9 to 5 exists and people bash the out of it. Because if you're not working 10 to 12 hours a day, you're just not getting after it, dude. And I just wholeheartedly disagree now. Like, I love the fact that I'm a nine to fiverr, you know, and so like everything that you're saying resonates so deeply, you know, I do think that comes in phases and I would argue to say, most likely, some of the athletes that most of the people know that are listening to this podcast that you've coached to the top probably have opened their minds to that as well, you know, and, and so I think that we do go through evolution as, as humans and, and even people that are, you know, literally scratching the surface of, like, the, the, the of Mount Everest in terms of performance. And I, I, I don't think that conversation is happening enough because you got guys like Alex Hormozi who just, like, totally took the baton from Gary Vaynerchuk and was just like, I'm gonna tell all these young kids that it's just, that's it. Work, hard, grind. And then you got a guy like Tony Robbins that sits across from Alex Hermosi and gives him a master class on how, why he's doing it wrong, you know, did you see that?
- [57:02]
Ben Bergeron
I saw pieces of it.
- [57:03]
Mike
And so I just think this conversation, right, like, how can we, how can we share this idea that, like, you can have both?
- [57:12]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah, I don't think there's a perfect way. So you found nine to five, and that's working. That's awesome. There are other people that want to blur the line between work and play. This is what I like. If I was not married and didn't have kids, what would I do for fun? I would go to the gym and help people get fit.
- [57:38]
Mike
It.
- [57:38]
Ben Bergeron
That's. I would, if I could do any job, what would I do? I would open a gym. So I'm literally doing the thing that if I had the freedom to do anything, I would be doing that. So once you blur that line between work and play, you know, Naval Ravikant's thing is find what looks like work to others but feels like play to you, that is your ultimate competitive advantage. No one will be able to compete with you because you're playing. So it's that idea of.
- [58:07]
Mike
Can you say that one more time? I think that's really good.
- [58:10]
Ben Bergeron
Do what looks like work to others, but feels like play to you. The way I say it is like, do what sets your heart on fire. Because what the people need, what the world needs, is more people with their heart on fire. Like people excited, enthusiastic for life. That's what we need more than anything else is people that love life. Like lovers of life. So what is that thing that gives you energy? Not takes it away if your job takes it away. Don't hustle culture that. But if you can find the thing that gives you energy, that makes you excited for the right reasons. Not for the paycheck, not so you can climb the wealth and status games, but so you can actually like intrinsically feel the joy in the moment. And you want to work 80 hours a week doing that. Like, but that's your vacation. Go do that thing. So it's, it's a matter of truly kind of like having the zoomed out perspective of what is going to on my deathbed, what are the things I'm going to look back on and go, hell yeah, I'm so glad I did that. We always want to keep us like keep trying to zoom out and zoom out as far as we possibly can so we get more and more perspective. When somebody bumps into you getting on the subway and says some mean remark to you, immediately what happens?
- [59:43]
Mike
You get like you want to, you want to react.
- [59:45]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah. You're pissed off. It's like. And it can. And then they walk away and you get in subway and you, it consumes you. What are you thinking about that nine, 10, 20 years later, you don't even remember it because you have enough perspective. You realize that didn't matter at all. So what we want to do is always be zooming out far enough to go. What actually matters. Once you figure that out, pour into it. Pour. If it's the 888 for you, eight hours of sleep, eight hours of work. The four and the four bookends love that. Right? If it's nope, I'm gonna like do the Tim Ferriss thing and I'm just gonna work a couple hours a week so I can travel the world. Cool. Go do that. If it's nope, I'm gonna work and do everything. I'm gonna move to Africa and build an orphanage and it's gonna take literally every waking moment I have. But I feel so much meaning in it. Awesome for that too. Like there's not a perfect way, but the end game is what matters. And what's the end game we're searching for?
- [60:48]
Mike
Don't you think though that there is some piece of it that needs to require a sufficient amount of time with people you love?
- [61:03]
Ben Bergeron
Absolutely. That to me that's the. If you zoom out far enough, that's what you'll find. I think if everyone zooms out far enough, that's what creates meaningful life.
- [61:13]
Mike
You cannot die. It doesn't matter how rich you are when you're dead. It doesn't matter how rich you are when you're in on your deathbed either. Maybe you get to buy a big tombstone, you know what I mean? But it's like, and I'm not trying to say people shouldn't or I shouldn't be gunning for big paydays because yeah, of course I do. I want that. I, you know, it's fun to be able to go on a awesome vacation and like, you know, if I want to buy something nice for my wife, like, I love that. There's no doubt. And I, and I think that that should be. But what I have found is if that is the North Star, you're totally screwed.
- [62:01]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah.
- [62:02]
Mike
Because that is not going to shine bright like the North Star promises. And that's what I have found. And so really what does shine bright like the North Star for me is last night when I was putting my son down and he's 11 and he said, hey dad, can you come give me a hug and, and rub my head so I can, I can fall asleep because I'm a little bit scared. That's my goddamn North Star, dude. Like, it just is. Because I know that. We are. And this is going to sound woo, but whatever, like, we were here to love. Human beings are one of the very few species on the planet that can. And that can actually feel it, receive it and express it in a way that others can identify and appreciate. And so because of that, I believe that that is our purpose. Right. And a lot of the decisions that we make, I mean, if you look at the, you know, the, the bums on the Bowery to the billionaires, like, really, when you peel it all back, it's, it's a need for love. Whether you want people to love you more, you want to figure out how to love yourself more, it's like that. Is it right. Like, and by the way, you can end up on the Bowery or you can end up a billionaire. Oh, the Bowery is, is a, it's an avenue in, in Manhattan.
- [63:54]
Ben Bergeron
Got it.
- [63:54]
Mike
Where like in the 70s, it was just like every single homeless person, it was like a Bowery bum is like a, a term that I grew up with as a kid, but like all
- [64:04]
Ben Bergeron
the homes, New York's local slide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm an outsider.
- [64:09]
Mike
But so, you know, and, and I, I guess I just one more question. So in, in your experience with a lot of high performers, is there a common thread that you see amongst them? Is there is. If you had to say, maybe not in every single one, but in the majority of those that you've worked with, is there something that you have identified as the common denominator?
- [64:36]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah, for sure. I. Before that, I want to just Echo and I could not agree more. I think that the common thread amongst all of us is that we are searching for unconditional love to be able to feel and give it and receive it. And we, we are still caught up in this other game of status and wealth, which is, we think that if I, because this is the survival part, if I climb either one of those, it all becomes choice of mate and meat. Right. In tribal like if we are more wealth or you have more status, if you're the king or you're the best hunter status or you have the most land and animals, you get a better choice of when the food comes in, you get. They want to keep you alive because you're the hunter and you get a better choice of a spouse so you have healthier offspring. That's the game we are still playing when it's not necessary anymore. What the game that we can now play, which has been afforded to all of us now that survival is not the game is the game of love. Unconditional love is what we are all searching for. But we think the way to get there is through recognition.
- [66:04]
Mike
Do you think that a thousand years ago when it was about the same thing, mate and meat, do you think that the similar characteristics of those that were just trying to have the most cows and the biggest piece of land, do you think you would be able to. I, I mean obviously you don't know because you didn't live then, but do you think it was similar to those that are climbing the status and wealth?
- [66:32]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah. So the, the Stoics used to say, and this is ancient Greece, the goal is to live a virtuous life. Right. And we still think of that like a high moral compass. Do what is right, you know, virtue versus vices. Right. Live a virtuous life, high character. What's not as well talked about is to them virtue. To have virtue, you could only also have it if you had wealth. That's how important it was. Not only be a good person, not only be of high character, but also accumulate a lot of possessions.
- [67:13]
Mike
This has been, it's a part of it's human condition.
- [67:16]
Ben Bergeron
Human condition unnecessary. Now it's really what it is. Like I could, if you were in China, I could pick you up and talk to you face to face. Right now it's not about survival anymore, right? Yeah, totally different. We get, we now have the opportunity to play the different game. So it's that for sure. I'll get back to your other question, which is a common characteristic amongst all the super high achievers. And yes, it, it, it's one. And once you say it's fairly obvious, it's discipline. They can get themselves to do things that other people can't, that they don't want to do, and they do enough times, that becomes a habit. They become a creature of habit and it's no longer a hard decision anymore. Like six hours of training a day, like weighing and measuring, meaning putting every piece of food that they have on a scale before they put it on their plate. Like measuring their recovery every single day. Like getting, you know, doing all sorts of incredibly excruciatingly painful training sessions that most of us wouldn't sign up for if we were paid for it.
- [68:22]
Mike
Do you think from your experience there maybe not necessarily has to be there, but have you witnessed there being some level of pain in their past that most. Most.
- [68:40]
Ben Bergeron
But I think that's most, period. I think most of us have it. We. I said we all have it, just to varying degrees. But what's interesting about the human condition is it almost doesn't matter if it was like real trauma, like abuse, or if it was something like neighborhood bullying. You interpret it very, very similar.
- [69:07]
Mike
Right. The brain doesn't necessarily distinguish.
- [69:10]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah. So we are all kind of products of our environments and it's the, quote, trauma we've gone through. Because I think we could all like, point to someone in our lives that we've met that hasn't really been through the bad stuff, but makes it. Maybe this is like the, the, the match throwers like your mom and your sister, if that's who you were referencing before. Like it's not that big a deal. Why are we making such a big deal out of this? There's like such bigger atrocities in the world. If everyone threw their piles into a problem, we'd be really fast to pull ours back. Right. So it's a matter again of perspective. But. Yes. Do I think that most of these high achievers have probably, you know, something to prove because of something that's happened in their past? Yeah.
- [69:58]
Mike
Last two questions.
- [69:59]
Ben Bergeron
I think it's most of us, but we. But they channel it in what most of us would look at as a very productive way, where other people channel it other ways.
- [70:08]
Mike
How important do you think having a foundational morning routine or ritual is?
- [70:16]
Ben Bergeron
I think if you win the morning, you win the day. It's the only thing that you can actually. That it's the easiest time of the day to control.
- [70:23]
Mike
Do you have one?
- [70:24]
Ben Bergeron
Yes, I've had one that's been morphed and iterated upon every every couple years.
- [70:31]
Mike
So I mean currently what does it look like?
- [70:33]
Ben Bergeron
I wake up at six o', clock, I shower, I get dressed, I do 50 push ups, I go downstairs, I help with the, the dog and the kids. So usually if I'm the kind of the first one down because they're still doing their bathroom routine, I'll take the dog out. My wife is usually making breakfast at the time when I come back in I journal and read. I then read to my kids what I have journaled or read and then help them pack up their books and bags get him, walk him to the bus stop, see him off on the bus, drive to the gym, do 20 to 40 minutes of mobility work, 10 minutes of running. Then I do a class at my gym which is an hourong class and then I start my day. So I am. I've always gone in the the idea of protect your mornings that has. I've done that with different degrees of discipline and let something slip in here or there but I really firmly believe I'll try to zoom out quickly and kind of come back to it. If what we all want is a good life that requires freedom, requires freedom to be able to do meaningful things like connect and love other people. The only thing that can take that freedom away from us is not financial or I work with I, I mentor about six different prisons. These people are having very meaningful lives, contributing a lot this maximum security prisons imprisonment couldn't take that freedom away. They're doing it. The only thing that could take that away is your health. If you are in pain, if you are going through chemotherapy, if you are in a coma, if you are getting your leg amputated because of type 2 diabetes, you're going blind. You don't have the freedom to pour out into others and or chase the most meaningful things in your life. That is why I believe that the first three, four hours of your day should be dedicated to filling up your cup as much as you possibly can so the rest of the day you
- [72:47]
Mike
can pour into others Evening routine
- [72:52]
Ben Bergeron
it starts yes, it starts early. It starts when I leave work. I try to leave work at 6 o' clock that used to be earlier but it's crept longer. I'm in a busy busy time having dinner by 6:30, going upstairs, lights out by 7:45 downstairs a 45 nighttime routine. 45 minute nighttime routine with the kids I we alternate which kid we snuggle with every single night. So we have, I have two older kids and two youngers, a 1311 year old still snuggling every night, my 13 year old boy. And then it goes to the 11 year old daughter. We fall asleep with them. At least I do. I don't think my wife falls asleep and she just walks back. I fall asleep very easily. But that is a really cool connecting time as you said. Like, hey, could you stay with me? Rub my head. I read something recently that it can be very frustrating. This is really eye opening for me that time. I'm ready, like I'm ready for bed. I close my eyes and I'll be asleep. So it's so easy for me to get frustrated with them because they become like motor mouths at that time. And in my mind, the story I told myself again, the story we tell ourselves, which is not true with the story of Solomon itself, is they're trying to stay up. They just, they don't want to go to bed. And that would be frustrating for me. I, I checked out some actual research and it's not. This is when they now feel the safest. They're in their bed with a person that they are closest to. It's basically like they are now divulging. They're like processing the whole day, day. All of the subconscious things that have been happening. They might not go, and then I did this, and then I did this and then I did this. They might be just telling wacky weird stories or asking questions or imagination going. But this is when they are actually doing a lot of growing. And it's not that they're trying to stay up. This is the connection time.
- [74:52]
Mike
They just let go.
- [74:53]
Ben Bergeron
They just let.
- [74:54]
Mike
That's their let go moment.
- [74:55]
Ben Bergeron
It's a great way of saying it, Mike. They just. That's their let go moment.
- [74:57]
Mike
That's so interesting because I always say to my wife, I'm like, every time I'm like fifth, he just flips the switch on.
- [75:07]
Ben Bergeron
I'm like, dude, a quiet kid, right? We'll just like go. And not all of a sudden they won't. You're like, what is, what's happening here? This is bedtime.
- [75:14]
Mike
That's so interesting that it's because they're at their.
- [75:16]
Ben Bergeron
It's.
- [75:17]
Mike
It's one of the safest moments in their day.
- [75:19]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah.
- [75:19]
Mike
Wow. So they just let go at that moment.
- [75:21]
Ben Bergeron
Yep.
- [75:22]
Mike
Such a good perspective. We have very similar, very similar morning and evening routines. I mean, all the way down to the push ups. Dude, this is awesome. I think what I have truly extrapolated here is sort of cementing my relatively newer perspective on this idea that really what matters is being around the people you love, if that fills your cup.
- [76:02]
Ben Bergeron
Yep.
- [76:02]
Mike
And I think for most people it doesn't have to be family. Right. Like sometimes family doesn't actually fill your cup.
- [76:11]
Ben Bergeron
That's right. You don't get to choose your family.
- [76:12]
Mike
Right. And in. But in my case, it's my favorite place to be. And, and I spent a lot of years not trying to create a barrier between them and me, but in trying to enhance the experience with them, I completely distanced myself because I just was spent more time here. And so that for sure. But also really, I think the through line is the stories we tell ourselves are what we are going to believe and ultimately take action upon that will inevitably define who we are. I mean, you've said it kind of like that two times, but I think this full conversation has really been about how are we processing life in between our two ears. And it's very, very different than an athlete, you know, getting in the ring and putting up everything they got. It's a different kind of fitness. It's a different kind of fitness. And it's so crazy how we can fabricate these stories. Right. That, that are subconscious at some, at a certain point. It's, it's like, you know, you wake up in the morning, you get out of bed, you walk into the bathroom, you brush your teeth. Like you just kind of do that. Right. Somebody walked into the room that potentially could be threatening or whatever. Like we have a default setting for that and we've created a loop and it's a story. And we've now projected all of our. Every other consistent story that we've told that would potentially impact that person, we've now projected it right onto that person. And that's our perception.
- [78:03]
Ben Bergeron
Yep.
- [78:04]
Mike
And it's. And, and, and I guess what we're also saying is like, there is a way to come out of that existence really, really slow down and like step back and pay attention to. Not only because you said, pay attention to your words, not only to your words, but the words that you hear. That first thought that, that thought that you just have zero control over the, the thing that just pops up. Like how do you freeze that for a moment as opposed to allowing that first thought to influence the second thought without giving yourself enough time. Give yourself enough time. And I'm sure trying to train someone in, in a sport like CrossFit that is unbelievably fast paced. Like, you know, incredibly fast paced. To be able to be like, oh man, you just, you know, effed up that thing, like pause, don't respond. Don't let your, don't let your emotions get the best of you in this one like you, like that's, that is what I think is the skill that, that elite level where you're able to do that fast.
- [79:20]
Ben Bergeron
Yeah if we're able to. The highest level of performance comes when you reach a flow state. A flow state is one of open mindedness, curiosity and non judgment. How, how great can I handle this situation? Is the thought process instead of am I going to win Michael Jordan's why would I worry about taking. Missing a shot I haven't taken yet. He's not putting any judgment. The fastest thing that can rip an athlete out of a flow state is judgment. It's the same thing with us in life. Like if we want to do the very best we can stop trying to weigh and measure everything that we're doing yet that's what we are like programmed to do. We're very very, you use the words like we're the only species that we're also the ones with like crazy amounts of like self consciousness. We all have it to a detriment if we could let go of that live freer question. I heard a quote on the on my way here. Probably going to butcher it but it's something along the lines of we question our beliefs except for the ones that we truly believe. Can we question like, like, like, like success, societal sex success is happiness. Like if I get a million dollars I will be happy. Like I've heard Chris Williamson say like that it teams so well which is that is the unlearnable lesson. Once you get there everyone realizes it that wow, this did not make me happy. But you, it cannot be learned by anyone that hasn't been there yet. Everyone that hasn't been there yet goes you ungrateful son of a. You earned a. You have a ten million dollar bank account and you're still, still not happy. God damn if I was there yet. When they get there they're not. It's okay. It's like way to do is go like and people. I think a lot of people go okay but when I'm 50. When you're 50 it's totally different. You realize these things very different than when I was 25 and I was going like you were. You know I didn't take a day off for two years. Like forget about like a vacation. It's just that you're going to grind. That's okay, that's okay. But what we want to do is your values, your passions, your belief System should morph and change over life. That's what wisdom is, the knowledge you gain through experience.
- [81:54]
Mike
Dude, this is a wonderful discussion, man. And I feel like I could probably sit and talk to you about this for hours and hours. And I feel just the way you articulate what you have developed over the years as, as a high performance coach is awesome because I feel like I, it really resonates with me, like I
- [82:19]
Ben Bergeron
really
- [82:21]
Mike
believe what you're saying actually. And because it so aligns with the way I have now walked through, you know, and I'm grateful that you came here, man. This is really awesome.
- [82:40]
Ben Bergeron
Appreciate it.
- [82:41]
Mike
Mike, where can the audience follow your journey? Pop in a comp train and, and yeah, comp train.
- [82:47]
Ben Bergeron
CompTrain.com is the training platform. What we're trying to do there is build forever athletes so people that are, are fit today, tomorrow and forever. It's not necessarily go and like compete in this sport. It's about being fit for life. It's, it's high level training. But we believe that the fitter you are, the better you can handle hard. You know, it is physical, mental and emotional. Well, let's bring the physical as high as we can. That's what comp train is all about on that, you know, find me on Instagram. I don't do a whole lot on it myself. I, I'm not a big fan of there, so I almost don't wanna, but that's the only place I kind of live.
- [83:28]
Mike
Well, you also have Chasing Excellence pod.
- [83:30]
Ben Bergeron
I have a podcast called Chasing Excellence. Yeah, that'd be a great place to point people. Yep.
- [83:35]
Mike
I love, I really did love that book Chasing Excellence. It was a period of time where I, you know, I went through all of the athletes books and your name was in a number of them. And then I read yours.
- [83:45]
Ben Bergeron
Appreciate it. Yeah.
- [83:47]
Mike
Ladies and gents, I loved that combo. That is the, that is the conversation that really not only fills me up, but excites me to want to have more of because I do strongly believe that success should not be a bad word. I, I, I, I gun for success. And my perception of success today is different than it was 10 years ago. Success is balance. It's just a fact. It is what it is like. If success is supposed to equal happiness, balance has got to play a big role. And there's guys out there like Ben who have worked with some of the most incredible, incredible people in the game. And in order to be able to mentor some of the most incredible people in the game, you gotta, you gotta be, you gotta be one of the most incredible people in the game. So it's an honor to be able to speak with them. Do me a favor. The only rent I ask you to pay for listening to the podcast is to share it. That's all I ask. I'm going to ask you for a few more things, but I really only really am asking you to share the podcast with a friend, family member, whatever, post it on social media, tag us, comment below if you have any questions. And if you're feeling super duper generous, hit the subscribe button. Give us a five star rating and a review because that's what really helps us grow the podcast. I appreciate you all. I love you. And until the next one, peace.
- [85:40]
Ben Bergeron
Ra.