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- [00:00]
Alex Silver Fagan
Surrender doesn't mean being complacent and unresponsive, but it means that you can't control the outcome and you don't need to know the outcome in order to take a step forward. You still have to propel forward. You still have to be in motion. But I don't know the end of the story. I think our whole world right now is forcing us into this stressful fight or flight state and we're reacting all the time. And so surrender is learning how to simply respond, like, take a breath and respond rather than just keep fighting against what's happening around you.
- [00:40]
Michael Chernow
An entrepreneur straight out of New York City, Michael Chernow. What's cracking? So, Alex Silver Fagan. Life is lifing.
- [00:56]
Alex Silver Fagan
Life is lifing. Life has been.
- [00:58]
Michael Chernow
You and I have known each other probably for, I would say, 10, 11 years. Yeah, we kind of connected through the world of fitness and wellness. And you've always been this, like, shining star of. You're just a. You're. You're a bright light. Every time I see you or I come across you on the social webs, you just seem like you're shining. And right before the cameras started rolling, we were talking about this last year in your life and how it's been crazy and incredible and nomadic and the power in continuing to push. Let's just dive into that.
- [01:46]
Alex Silver Fagan
Sure, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction. I definitely feel, not to be. Have a lot of ego in the statement, but I definitely feel that there's a light within me and that it does keep me going, even in my moments that are super dark, which they have been. And I've been open about that. But this past year has been about surrender in a way that I didn't truly understand. And, you know, I. I chose to not have a home anymore. I was in la, I had mold in my house and the LA fires happened. So there were actually reasons why I no longer wanted a home. But I also felt like it was time for me to leave la. I had gone after. I'm from New York, so I'd been here my whole career, my whole life. And I went to LA for an opportunity that was fantastic. I connected with a community that helped me expand in my spirituality, my sexuality, my play community, and. But I was missing that. I was missing my professional creativity and the opportunity to share in the world. And I only know that now that I've come out of it. So I needed to go to LA to heal. And then in February, I put all my stuff into storage. And I came to New York. I went to Austin. I was out of the country in Italy. I was in Israel. Came back here, and the whole year I had to keep, like, not only being present, but being able to respond to what was happening. So we talk about the power of now, right? But what about the power of now? What now I'm here. What am I going to do next with this situation? And not in a way that's controlling, but I can only choose to be in this place and to handle what's in front of me and to allow the next thing to come through. And so eventually, it led me back here to some incredible opportunities, and I needed to strip down my ego in a way that, you know, the last time we spoke, I had just come out of a mental treatment facility, which I was super open about. And I think my whole journey has been about how do I surrender and still offer my light to the world?
- [04:12]
Michael Chernow
So when you say surrender, I'd love to just unpack that a little bit. Like, what does that mean?
- [04:17]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah, surrender doesn't mean being complacent and unresponsive, but it means that you can't control the outcome, and you don't need to know the outcome in order to take a step forward. You still have to propel forward. You still have to be in motion. But I don't know the end of the story. None of us do. I don't know what the other characters are going to do. I don't know what. I don't know if something's gonna break, you know, like, if we're saying on set, if we're going with that analogy. But I can just respond in my world, in my little world, what's happening in my brain and the habits that I decide to lean into. And I think our whole world right now is forcing us into this stressful fight or flight state, and we're reacting all the time. And so surrender is learning how to simply respond. Like, take a breath and respond, rather than just keep fighting against what's happening around you.
- [05:21]
Michael Chernow
You know, it's interesting. Like, as you're talking, the thought that came to mind for me, and I kind of put these two words against each other often because I think there's a massive difference between waiting and being patient. Right. Being patient is not a stagnant action. Being patient is an action, whereas waiting is more of a state. Being patient, in my opinion, is actively pursuing progress but not putting expectations on everything around you. Right. And so what you're saying is, like, you just got Real comfortable with patience.
- [06:02]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yes.
- [06:03]
Michael Chernow
And at least that's the way I received it. Right. You got real comfortable with patience and you were not like creating these unrealistic, slash stressful, anxiety provoking expectations on every step you took in your life.
- [06:16]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right. I also learned how to be productive and not to push for things, not to bang down doors, but instead to knock. Be patient. And if it doesn't open, okay, there's another one. But I have to keep, I have to keep checking out the other doors.
- [06:33]
Michael Chernow
You have to keep knocking.
- [06:34]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah, exactly.
- [06:35]
Michael Chernow
You, you texted me something earlier that I think I would love to talk about because it's also very, become very, very sort of prominent slash profound in my life in a significant way. But you said you've been living in faith over fear in the last year. Faith?
- [06:56]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah.
- [06:56]
Michael Chernow
What is, what does that mean to you?
- [07:00]
Alex Silver Fagan
I love the word God. I think some people are afraid of it. I don't necessarily see this white guy with a beard, but I do love the energy of something bigger than me that is in dance with, or I'm dancing with the story. And faith is your ability to take responsibility for the things that are coming into your life, but also recognizing that they're a gift to, to help you grow. So something happens and I can't just blame God or the universe and be a victim. In my story. I can take responsibility for that experience, but I also have to recognize that it didn't come, I believe it comes from something else. I believe that there's a greater timeline. I do believe in fate, that we're going to get where we are going regardless of how we get there or the amount of time it takes to get there. I think that you can play with that timeline, but you're going to get to the destination. And that for me is faith. And this whole year I've really reconnected with my Judaism, my particularly and more specifically Kabbalah in a spiritual sense, because I've always been connected to yoga and to me that was blending these two worlds and also a vocabulary that everybody can relate to. You don't have to be Jewish in order to relate to it. And so I, I, I've been praying rather than just meditating, like actively being, actively being in conversation with myself and what's happening around me.
- [08:38]
Michael Chernow
You know, I'm so happy that you said prayer and not just meditation. So the way, because I, I have been doing both for a long time and the way I kind of think about those two things is prayer is talking and asking and meditation is listening. Right. And you know, I was watching, I was watching this one guy on that TV show alone, I was watching alone. And this guy, one of the characters on Alone said, you know, it's not that God speaks louder when I'm alone in a place like this, it's just that I'm listening far more. Right. And I think that comes seasonally in life for most people, you know, if you're open to that piece, you know, and, and someone very close to me said to me, you know, Mike, in your prayers? Because I've been praying since I've been sober, I've been praying every single day. It's been, it was, I was told to do it, I didn't question it, I just did it. Right. And it's become a massive part of what I think is my success story today because it humbles me in the very, very, very early hours of my day to say, hey, I need help. Like, I just can't do this alone. And it's nice to know that you can take that practice, whether you believe it or not, you could take that and not, not put human expectations on it. Right. Like, human expectations, you're always gonna, you're always gonna find a problem with the outcome.
- [10:17]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah, of course. And, well, if you've already designed the outcome, right. If you haven't, then there's not a problem.
- [10:24]
Michael Chernow
Totally. And that's what I think the beauty of faith is. And that's what it's been for me. Right. It's this idea that like, I can take action in faith. Whether that's prayer, whether that's meditation, whether that's, you know, like David Guillem. I'm sure you've.
- [10:38]
Alex Silver Fagan
He's a friend of mine in la.
- [10:40]
Michael Chernow
Okay.
- [10:41]
Alex Silver Fagan
I learned Kabbalah from him.
- [10:43]
Michael Chernow
Yep. I mean, he, when I hang with him, he's like, so how often, you know, are you talking out loud to God? And I'm like, probably not as often as I should. But like, that is a way that, like he, he says, you know, he goes for a walk every morning with an airpod in his ear so people don't think he's totally crazy. And he has a full on conversation with God, right? Where he's talking out loud to God. It's real. He's speaking and, you know, and listening at the same time. What, what actions or habits have you placed in your life over the last year that you feel have been gripping you in a powerful way?
- [11:28]
Alex Silver Fagan
Well, praying, as we were just saying. But I think even praying where I get to slow down my own thoughts and work through what I'm thinking out loud. When you're thinking, all of these ideas keep meshing together. But if I'm actually journaling or verbalizing what I'm thinking, I have a chance to really understand and slow down. And honestly, the biggest habit that's similar to this is that I don't walk with AirPods and listen to music anymore. And I don't have my phone out and look down and try to multitask when I'm in motion. Especially being in New York, I find that the world is always hitting us with stimulus. And if I'm actually not present with it and in dialogue, then it actually feels very overwhelming. And I'm also not. I'm not in the place that I'm in. I'm looking at my phone, I'm trying to respond to an email or text, or I'm listening to music. And I think then we're missing the point of where we are and where we're going and what we're doing. And you also can't multitask. Multitasking. Technically, they did a study where it's giving you a dopamine hit. So it's similar to an addiction where you're, oh, I'm being productive, but you're actually just continuing to spike your cortisol, which is what this whole world is trying to do for us. And our habits are taking care of ourselves. Self care is really trying to minimize all of those cortisol spikes. But it shouldn't be this extra, oh, you should be doing self care. It's like, this is how we should be living our life. We shouldn't be trying to be in, like, fighting off everything around us. It's how do we. We're not engaging unless we decide to. Which another habit of mine is. I try not to check my phone first thing in the morning because I'm in a dream state. I'm in this opportunity. I'm literally talking to God if we want to keep going down that path. Or I'm in my own space, my own higher self space, or I'm just dreaming if somebody doesn't want to lean into the God theory. And then you reach for the phone and you're getting everything else that wasn't in your own field. Then you're all of a sudden you're in this flywheel of the world that is not that maybe you're not prepared for yet. So my habit is slowing down. And I know it sounds so simple, but being present with this moment.
- [14:01]
Michael Chernow
I have yet to have A guest come on the show and say, gosh, the phone and the email, it's just such a great addition to life. Right. Like, I don't think anybody in today's day genuinely would say that. Like, honestly, unless you're a. Maybe Mark Zuckerberg would say that, you know, but I bet you even him would be like, this is a problem. Like it is. We are in a constant state of reaction. Right. We are in a constant state of cortisol at a high level, feeling like we're not doing everything we need to be doing. We're constantly catching up. You write one email, seven people are copied on it, three come back, you compound that over the course of a day, you've got a hundred plus emails that you are supposed to respond to within a 10 minute period of time because those are the expectations that we've now set upon ourselves. But think about 50 years ago, if you wanted to talk to somebody, you had to find a phone, you had to write a letter. Yeah, right. Like there's no doubt you were also.
- [15:22]
Alex Silver Fagan
Responsible for showing up somewhere.
- [15:24]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [15:24]
Alex Silver Fagan
We now don't even hold ourselves to that standard. Like, I can just cancel if I.
- [15:30]
Michael Chernow
Want and also, and also like be there virtually. Right. That's why I refuse to do this podcast virtually.
- [15:37]
Alex Silver Fagan
I'm glad we're not doing it virtually.
- [15:39]
Michael Chernow
Well, it's, you know, I know that when people ask me to go on their podcast and it's a virtual one, 9 out of 10 times I'll say no, because. Well, for a long list of reasons, but one is because I know that I'm just going to fit it in between my meetings.
- [15:54]
Alex Silver Fagan
Sure.
- [15:55]
Michael Chernow
So if I've got a 45 minute slot in between meeting with Joe, my SaaS guy, and Victor, my GM, I'm like, let's just slip it in there, you know, and like I'm still thinking about my conversation with Joe and thinking about what's. What I'm going to say to Victor.
- [16:11]
Alex Silver Fagan
What?
- [16:11]
Michael Chernow
While I'm on a podcast, you know.
- [16:13]
Alex Silver Fagan
And we're also missing just an in person human connection. I do believe that there's energy that's shared, there's dialogue that happens in body language, in just sharing space that you don't get virtually through a computer. Yeah. And I'm also, I mean, I've done virtual classes and teaching for nearly my entire career and I do see the magic in that, in being able to speak to one person while they're in their own space, vulnerable. And there's more opportunity. But we are wanting to be in Connection and together and in person again. And there's less opportunity to react when you're still with people. Like, there's almost this mirror that's held up for you. And so it's easier to respond.
- [17:03]
Michael Chernow
I am just fearful that this is not going to end and that it is going to continue to. Not only progress, but the progression of technological advances is the regression of human condition.
- [17:26]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yes. If done in a way, that is where you're giving all your responsibility and power to that technology, like ChatGPT or Claude, which, by the way, I switched CLAUDE recently and I highly recommend, I really enjoy.
- [17:43]
Michael Chernow
What is it?
- [17:44]
Alex Silver Fagan
It's just a different processing tool, but it's a little bit. It's a little bit more interactive, which is what we should be using these tools for. So I found that when I was using chat, it would give me something and then I would just. I would take it, but I wouldn't tell. I would maybe change it separately, but I wouldn't explain what I was doing or changing. And I would just. I would send a response like, wrong, do this react. Which was quite mean. I'm sorry to chat, but now, like, I know I was. I did say please, but I was very quick with some of my responses. And now I actually. If you, if you put in ideas and then you're. You're given something back, engage with it, like, actually read through it, explain to the processing tool what you liked, what you didn't, so that there's actually, there's a dialogue and it can then support you and it can expand your ideas into places that you didn't even realize. But if we're just relying on these tools to do the things that we know how to do, or we think that we don't want to do anymore, then it's a regression. You know, I think not everybody thinks the way that I do, but I hope that they can.
- [18:56]
Michael Chernow
Well, no, I think that's an intelligent way of looking at the tools that we're given today. Right.
- [19:01]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah.
- [19:01]
Michael Chernow
And I believe that because I no longer live in New York City and I live in rural New York, and I am exposed to nature a lot. Like, you know, every morning I walk through the woods. Like, I. At most nights, like, we have a fire at our fire pit. You know, I want to come over. I'm just telling you that, that I. And I don't walk around fearful of this, literally. But when I sit down with people and talk about, like, the problems that we're faced with in today's current climate, it has all to do with overstimulation and the lack of boredom that we experience as human beings. And I think you know someone. Chris Williamson, the podcaster. Right. He just shared about his health journey and how he's been going through an enormous amount of health issues. And he and I have a very similar story there. I'm sort of. I'm in a Lyme disease flare up right now, and I've been dealing with shit for the last couple of months, but really, for the last, like, five years, since I found out that I had Lyme, all sorts of health things have shown up for me. But I was like, of course, scrolling through Instagram this morning on the train, and someone had posted a interpretation of what is actually happening to Chris. And it's less about the mold toxicity and the Lyme disease. And although those are all real for him, it's more about just the absolute burnout. Yeah, the absolute burnout. And not being able to like or feel comfortable saying that you are, as a successful person, taking a fucking break. Like, it sounds to me like the last year of your life was a good, long break.
- [21:11]
Alex Silver Fagan
That is 1,000% true. Yeah. And I didn't want it. I was so resistant and I was terrified. But it was a massive break. And I do want to go back to just being in nature because for me, that is a habit. That's very important. And it's what I'm struggling with, being back in New York versus being in la. Although LA didn't really feel like nature to me. Like, I need to be laying in grass, honestly, preferably naked. Like, I actually want to be just outside. So I try to, first thing in the morning, just get sunlight. But we are missing out of the rhythms of being in nature. And this. This year, because I honestly wasn't working that much. Not because I wanted to work, but I was. I was kind of banging on doors that I didn't need to be opening. And when I just stopped and took a breath, I also got a little bit deeper into my plant medicine journey. This year, things started coming my way, but only because I took the break and I wasn't afraid that this was gonna be my life forever. I know that it's not, because I've felt and I've tasted something else in my life, so I know that there's more coming. But I was very. Honestly, it took, like, just the past few months, like, the beginning of this year. I wasn't really into it, but I've. I've surrendered what we were saying before, and I now have an opportunity to create with a new studio. I just filmed a new program. And these things came to me in a place of softness, which is my whole life. And my whole mission is about teaching women how to balance their strength and their softness and their receptivity and their ability to create. And I have lived my whole life in this strong identity. And when I let go and soften, it's when there's space for things to come my way. And I even like to. You know, with fitness, there is. When we met, it was this. We were in, like, the boom of, like, workouts that need to leave you dead on the floor, and you need to be like. We were obsessed with feeling in pain and so drained. And I think it was because life was draining us, and we wanted to feel like we had a little bit of control in that experience. And now there's this boom of downregulation and meditation and slowing down and softening. And I hope that it is going to reflect or it's going to allow people to start doing that in other places of their life. And I also took a big break with my fitness this year, and I've felt healthier than ever before. I've been nourishing my body, slowing down, breathing, and it's the break. The break is productive. We feel like rest is laziness, and it's really not. And I don't know why we have to add it into the program. It's just it should be the program. Like, it, it is. It's not, it's not optional.
- [24:26]
Michael Chernow
I, I, I, I have such identification here, you know, I am definitely one of those people that for years, the better part of 20 years, has pushed my body to the brink, needed to feel completely laid out on the floor after a workout. If I wasn't nursing an injury quietly, I'd be like, maybe you could have gone a little harder, you know, like, oh, you didn't blow, you know, And I have really, truly and obviously some health complications that I've had over the last couple of years, has brought in these, you know, brought. Allowed me to come closer to this conclusion. But.
- [25:16]
Alex Silver Fagan
I.
- [25:18]
Michael Chernow
Have no interest in training for you anymore. Right?
- [25:25]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah.
- [25:25]
Michael Chernow
And for years, even though I probably wouldn't have admitted it then, I trained for you, for you, like, that's a fact. I wanted to take my shirt off and feel like you thought I had my shit together. And I'm a fit guy, running business, being a father, like that was it. Now I still want to be the fit dude, but I also know that I just don't have to go as hard at all. And you know, I've even given myself grace where like, you know, waking up early in the morning is really important to me. I do believe that waking up early in the morning gives you an opportunity to get things done that you would feel potentially selfish doing later on in the day. Right. In place of spending time with the people you love. Right. Like if instead of spending time with the people that you love, maybe it's your family, maybe it's your good friends, whatever it is, if you're like sitting in front of the red light or like, you know, in the sauna for 45 minutes when you could be sitting at the breakfast table with your wife and kids. Like.
- [26:38]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right.
- [26:39]
Michael Chernow
You know, priorities.
- [26:40]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah. You know, and also what's going to nourish you? Like, we don't even remember that.
- [26:45]
Michael Chernow
Totally. And what, and also really what I kind of uncovered was. So my guess, my point is, is that I sleep now till 6:30 and that's a season that I'm in. Right. I always, for decade plus was, was up at 5am, always, always up at 5am no matter what time I went to bed. Now I tend to go to bed early, but still, like, if I went to bed at 11 o' clock and woke up at 5, that's giving myself six hours of sleep. Chances are six hours of sleep. I'm not performing at my best. If I'm not performing at my best, not only does it suck for me, but it also sucks for everybody around me. So instead of like being like, no, I'm the rise before the sun guy, I'm like, fuck that. I'm not going to red light and sauna and cold plunge and do all those things in the morning.
- [27:29]
Alex Silver Fagan
I am in a moment of my life where it's not going to last. But I don't have to set an alarm in the morning. I just don't have anywhere to be early on, which is not true for everybody. I know that. And this is such a privilege. And I used to be the 5am Girl 7. Let's just see where my body needs to wake up, where I also don't need to reach for a phone first thing. Also, and I really relate to your health journey. I lost my period after years of overtraining and also looking really good, but not feeling good at all, not feeling like a woman. And I started my journey in fitness as a bikini competitor. And that really snowballed into some eating challenges, which I think we discussed the first time I was on your podcast where I was afraid of food rather than nourishing my body. And I've completely reset the way that I handle my body, my movement, because I'm in a place where I want to feel healthy. And I also want to recognize that I am a woman. My body works very differently than your body does. And we as women need to start understanding that. The whole fasting thing for women, sure, if someone. I'm never gonna tell you what feels good in your body, but there's specific research that shows that women intermittent fasting, waiting to eat until lunch is just ridiculous. And the reason that you feel energetic is just because you're spiking your cortisol and your body feels like it's in a stressful state. And I care more about, am I bleeding as a woman, Am I sleeping well? Right. Like, if I can sleep to seven and wake up feeling refreshed, epic. If I, if I had to set an alarm at 5, but I still woke up and I felt great, then something is working. But for people who are constantly exhausted, their bodies aren't working the way that they should, and they're. They're doing what we think we need to do to, as a. I'm really speaking for women here to look smaller or to, you know, not like, eat as little as possible. Your body needs to feel safe. And then also emotionally, like, you need to feel safe in your life and in fitness, we do have a chance to shake that up and give ourselves this, like, safe container to feel uncomfortable. But again, are you doing it for you or are you doing it because you think that you should? And that's. I'm really loving this power of now what situ. I've been like, playing with it for a while and it's.
- [30:07]
Michael Chernow
I like that power of now what?
- [30:08]
Alex Silver Fagan
Like, now what? Like, are you doing it because you feel that you should or because you really need to or want to, or are you taking a break out of laziness? Or you're taking a break because you're actually listening. So it's. You can't just be present. You have to then respond to what's happening in that present moment. And people, a lot of people aren't doing that. They're not responding in a way that nourishes them themselves. They're responding in a way that they think others will respect them.
- [30:40]
Michael Chernow
You know, I, I want to make clear in this conversation, because I think it's important to say that fitness 100% saved and saves my life. Right? Like, you know, back a thousand years ago, we were all working Outside all the time. Right. Typically, like men were hunting, women were gathering and like we were outside moving our bodies, bending over, planting shit, hunting shit, climbing things, carrying back things, moving heavy things around. Like there was no machines. So that's what we were designed to do. Right. We were designed to have to inherently be moving beings. Right. And now it has to be an intentional practice. Right. You can't just like, if you, if you just conform to the current day system, you will sleep, get out of bed, brush your teeth, take a piss, get in your car, drive to some office, walk from your car to this to the desk, sit at the desk for eight hours, get up off the desk, walk to the car, drive home, walk back to the dinner table, sit on the couch. Yeah, right. Like that's the movement that if we.
- [32:09]
Alex Silver Fagan
I can't even, I'm like fidgeting, I like have such a, but like if.
- [32:13]
Michael Chernow
You just conform to that system, that's the system that yes, they want us to do. And that system puts us in a sick place. Right. For, for the way we were designed.
- [32:23]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah.
- [32:23]
Michael Chernow
You know, we're not designed for that. So you have to, if you want to be healthy and feel good because ultimately, you know, like, you think about a piece of art, right? Art is designed typically for people to explore and look at and you know, indulge in. Right. Like a piece of art sitting in, you know, the corner of a room collecting dust somewhere doesn't get the full expression, right. It's just, it's a one way street. It's the artist's thing and no one else gets to experience it. So it's a failed venture. Right. We're pieces of art. We need to be out and doing the things that we were designed to do, which is typically move and, and connect with others. Our society has now like the, the, the way it's going has said no, you don't need to move. And by the way, you also don't need to connect with others because you can do everything from the seat of your couch. And I believe in my core that that is our problem. And so, you know, I think hearing you share about just, you know, moving around is now classified. Nomadic. Right?
- [33:43]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right, right.
- [33:43]
Michael Chernow
Like, like exploring and going from place to place. Like, oh my God, that's a, she's a nomad and it's actually like, no, she's exploring, she's like doing life.
- [33:54]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I have a privilege of doing that right now because I don't have responsibilities that I don't have children. I don't like I don't need to stay in one place at this moment. I do believe in being grounded. Like I, I've been taking a month in one place now I'm actually going to be in New York full time again. But being grounded is really important. So you do have foundation and structure. But I agree with you. We do need to give ourselves the freedom to move as we were designed to and explore and see the world and play and connect with others outside of our phone. And I know that some people, the majority of people don't have the privilege of also moving throughout the day. I really dislike the idea of waking up doing a 60 minute workout and then sitting for the rest of the day. I actually think you're still missing the point where what if you do a little here, a little there, you go dance, you play. Like I've started going to dance classes and it's not for a workout, it's for expression, it's for movement, a different way to move my body. And we, we don't nurture just movement, period. Like it, it doesn't have to be a workout, but you're right, it has to be intentional. The fact that it has to be intentional, I think is what's making me sad. All of the things that we're talking about, habits, you know, taking care of yourself, these are things that we now have to be intentional to add into our life. Because life is taking us out of what it means to actually be human. Like we're moving so far away from the things that are so easy. Even all these biohacking tools, they're actually just simulating the earth. Like red light is the sun. Those PEMF mats, it's literally just laying in the grass. And so if you can actually just start to adopt habits that get you in the mode of being human again without, without them being so special to your self care and just being a part of who you are, then I think you'll just feel better and move and things will and then life happens. And I had that. That's what this year was for me. Like I really got to be human. I got to feel shaky. Like when, you know, if we were hunter gatherers and living in a place that we've built ourselves, it might not be that sturdy. And you have to have trust and faith in what you've created. And also, you know, something might come, come around the corner, a lion might show up and you gotta know how to handle it. And this year was my opportunity to in much more. I mean actually there was One moment this year, I mentioned it before I. Before we started recording, where I was in a part of the world that was dangerous, during a time that was dangerous, which was very humbling. And I'm being careful about what I say. Cause I'm trying not to be. I never want to be political in my conversations with others or how I present online, because I think that that's very personal. I think that the narrative can get very skewed. But regardless of where I was, what I was doing, or what was happening, I was in a position of true danger for the first time ever in my life. And prior to that experience, I've had moments where I felt like I was in danger because either financial or I was going through a breakup or I lost a job, things that made me feel like I was going to die. And then when I was put in a position where I hope, God forbid that no one has to feel this way, but that I actually felt, wow, my physical. I'm physically potential.
- [37:37]
Michael Chernow
You're really in danger.
- [37:37]
Alex Silver Fagan
I'm actually in danger.
- [37:38]
Michael Chernow
Primal danger.
- [37:39]
Alex Silver Fagan
Exactly. And I had no. I had to just have faith and do what I can. And when I left that environment, I realized all of these moments where I am so scared, or I feel like it's the end of the world, or, you know, I'm in the darkest hole of my life. I know I'm okay because I have the privilege. I'm very privileged. There are people in the world who do have this experience regularly. And I think it's important if you do have the privilege to be safe, to recognize that and just to breathe and to not be in that. Things are not the end of the world. Your text from your boss is not the end of the world. And if you can manage that, then we can start to actually get back into being human.
- [38:27]
Michael Chernow
You know, God is real in my life. Ditto, real in my life. And I've had a number of conversations, more so recently than really ever before in my life, about God. Like, God is really showing up in very profound ways for me. And I'm not afraid to share about it. You know, whether you believe or not is totally up to you. I got no judgment. But I will say that struggling, suffering is when most humans reach for God. Right. And I believe that that is done intentionally.
- [39:15]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yes.
- [39:15]
Michael Chernow
You know, like, without this suffering, we're not necessarily in a mindset of faith. And when you go through suffering and you take the opportunity to say, okay, now is a good time for me to ask for help, you just turn the volume up. On your faith barometer, right? Like it gives you an opportunity to say, okay, wait a second. So when, when that was really, really hard and I did not feel like, you know, I felt like, like I was brought down so far down to my knees to be like, okay, God, like I need a life raft here. And you end up getting through it. You now know, you could say, oh, God, you know, that was coincidence. Or, you know, like, I'll use an example, as, you know, I feel like we're having a conversation here. Right?
- [40:19]
Alex Silver Fagan
Like I, I hope it's a conversation.
- [40:22]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I feel like if I talk too much, you know, I'm, I'm.
- [40:26]
Alex Silver Fagan
But you're good. I talk a lot.
- [40:28]
Michael Chernow
But. So Lyme disease is something that I've struggled with for since 2018, 2017 really is when it really came up and I was diagnosed in 2018. I get a Lyme flare up if I'm under an enormous amount of stress or if the weather changes. Typically that's when it starts. I start to feel it. I feel it in my heart, I feel it in my organs, I feel it in my joints, I feel it mentally. I start feeling anxious more, you know. And so like I got, I had surgery on Wednesday last week. And that surgery just kind of like, wow, just kicked up my lime. Kicked it up hard. And so I shared about it and you know, I have an amazing, awesome community and audience that have been like super supportive. I've got hundreds of DMS from people offering, you know, solutions that they've experienced. And anyway, I was talking to this guy and, and, and I have been really talking to God recently. Like really talking to God and being like, God, I not only have faith in you, but I really want to have a deeper relationship. Like, it's been a one way street. I have been really talking a lot for 20 years. I've been asking, I've been talking, I've been asking for prayers for others. I've been. But I really want this to be reciprocal. Like, I want to hear your voice. I want to feel that I'm not just constantly asking and talking. And so I'm on the phone with this guy and he's, you know, random dude, never met him before. He was introduced to me from a friend who follows me on social media. And he said, you got to meet this guy. He's. He's been all over the world traveling to try to find Lyme solutions. And he, he's, he's come up with some really, really great modalities that have helped him you know, and. And therapies. Anyway, I. I meet this guy, speak to him. He's like, look, he's like, I've. I've spent over a half a million dollars over the last five years, like, trying to figure out ways to feel better. And there's this one thing that's really changed me. And he told me what it was, but he didn't tell me about the person that he was going to introduce me to.
- [42:38]
Alex Silver Fagan
Okay.
- [42:39]
Michael Chernow
And so he introduces me to this guy, and it's this old, old man, 76 years old. And I call him up and I'm like, hey, you know, I'm friends with. With this dude Justin. He said to give you a call. And the first thing he said to me was, nobody calls me unless God puts them in my path. And I was like, okay. And he's like, God sent you to me, and I'm here to help. And I was just like, you know, I could take that as a, you know, I'm calling some, you know, crazy Christian dude who just says that to everybody. Or I could say, holy smokes. Like, this is. This is. This is. This is my answer. This is God talking back to me and saying, hey, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna connect you with people that are going to help you.
- [43:46]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah. You know, what if we started to look at every person coming into our life as being sent by God and that every opportunity is sent from God. While you're in this dialogue and relationship with God, I was thinking about when you mentioned a life raft. You know, there's an analogy of someone's stranded on a boat, keeps praying for God for an answer, for help. And like, someone comes with a life raft, he says, no, no, God's coming. Another one, another one. God's coming. The life raft that is being delivered to you by this person is God. These experiences are God if you want to be. If you. I really. I also agree with you. I think that having. If you don't believe in something, what do you believe in? And it's. For most people who don't believe in anything, I think there's just confusion there. They just don't want to. Or there's.
- [44:34]
Michael Chernow
Well, they believe in nothing.
- [44:36]
Alex Silver Fagan
In nothing. Right. So you might as well believe in something.
- [44:39]
Michael Chernow
Right. Like, isn't it like you. You genuinely believe in nothing? And, you know, like, that, in my opinion, is just lame.
- [44:50]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah. Can I ask you a question?
- [44:52]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [44:52]
Alex Silver Fagan
How do you nourish, nurture your relationship with God? Because you said not just believing in and not just Talking to, but an actual relationship with God.
- [45:05]
Michael Chernow
So what I've been doing recently is I have been, I've shifted my prayer around so I still pray and I still, the first thing I did was instead of asking God to remove things from my life, I've asked him to add things to my life, right? I've, I, I always thought that if I was, if I asked God for things, that was like kind of selfish, right? It wasn't being selfless in the act of prayer. It was like kind of selfish, right? So I would always say, God, please remove my fears and my insecurities, my character defects, my character assassinations, my wrong thinking, my rationalizing, please allow me to be more of service. And those are the things that I would say in my prayer. Now I will still ask for God to remove some things, but I also say, God, please bring positivity, optimism, courage, kindness, commitment, presence into my life every morning. And, and then I say my prayer and then I just sit in prayer position, quiet for about 15, 20 breaths. And now I'm giving the space to receive, right? And, and that's been a pretty monumental shift. Also what I've done is, you know, I've had so many of these, like, is it odd or is it God experiences in my life, right? Where it's like, that is so strange that that just happened right now. Move on. Now I'm like, okay, I'm going to like really embrace this, this thing happened. I could chalk it up as I'm human. These things coincidentally happen, you know. Now I'm like, okay, I've been asking for, for, for guidance, I've been asking for direction, I've been asking for courage, I've been asking for presence. And when those things happen now I feel like God's given me a little wink. And that has been really refreshing because I, I think it's crazy to believe that, you know, 3 billion people on the planet genuinely believe in Jesus Christ as the savior, right? Like, yeah, yeah, billions of people believe that right? Now I'm not saying you have to be a Christian. I'm not saying like any religion you are or not, you know, to, to think that, that there is nothing outside of flesh and blood in my opinion is just being short sighted, right? Like if you look up in the sky at night and I do this a lot with my kids and some nights we'll see a weird light cross through the sky.
- [48:04]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah. I've 100% seen UFOs. Like 1000%.
- [48:11]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. So I could say to myself, oh, that was like A fast plane or a shooting star or like, whatever it is, a comet. But I'm also like. Like, is it crazy for me to be able to look up at this massive expanse, no end to it? It's infinite.
- [48:32]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah.
- [48:33]
Michael Chernow
No one's ever hit the wall on it. It's just infinite to think that we are the only things that live in this massive expanse of space.
- [48:42]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah.
- [48:43]
Michael Chernow
So, like, I, you know, I really do, you know, and also spirits, right? Like, how many people do, you know, have some experience with a spirit?
- [48:57]
Alex Silver Fagan
Absolutely.
- [48:58]
Michael Chernow
Isn't it ridiculous for us to be like, no, it's not real?
- [49:01]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yes. I think it's. It's honestly just fear of understanding something else or like breaking your own conditioning. And, you know, everyone's obsessed with the telepathy tapes. Right. You know, and I look at that. They don't. They. It's not that they're seeing something that we can't. They have something that we don't. So it takes the veil down. And we all have the opportunity to take the veil down and be able to communicate with other things and spirits and pray and ask for things. And if we take that our. Our, like our ego down or we take our disbelief down, our just any sort of hesitation, then we're able to actually do some pretty crazy things. And they're not crazy. They're actually just. We're just so blocked right now.
- [49:54]
Michael Chernow
Well, I also think, like, if you really kind of look at it, it's in the telepathy tapes as an example. It's not that they have something that we don't have.
- [50:06]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right, Exactly.
- [50:06]
Michael Chernow
It's that we have been molded to believe that the thing that they are experiencing isn't real.
- [50:16]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right, right.
- [50:17]
Michael Chernow
So after, you know. And that's why I love my kids that go to this Waldorf school. Like my kids. My son is in fifth grade and my older son's in fifth grade. My younger son's in second grade. And they just started. Finley just. They just started giving him homework. Just this year in fifth grade, they gave these kids arts and crafts and plays and puppeteering and real hands on knitting and woodwork and everything that you can do creatively. Before they started introducing academics and why. Because from the ages of 0 to 7, you really do generate the concrete that is poured as the foundation of your life. Existence.
- [51:09]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yes.
- [51:10]
Michael Chernow
What you believe. And if you are, in my opinion, and you and I grew up in New York or, you know, around New York, like when school gives you tests in kindergarten that says if you don't remember this on Your test, you're not good. That's just fear. You are now just putting your. And you could say it's a way to prepare you for life, but let me tell you something, you scare the shit out of a first grader. That kid is not going to develop a great relationship with learning.
- [51:48]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right?
- [51:48]
Michael Chernow
Unless. And everybody's different, but unless that kid is deeply passionate about learning.
- [51:54]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right? And also, the way that your children are being educated allows them to express. And we don't know how to express ourselves anymore, which is the problem as adults. We're now trying to unlearn how to be adults and how to go back to being kids and play and community and create and dance and paint. Where is that and why is that an extracurricular when it's actually the basis of, again, being human and expressing ourselves? I find there's this guy in. I live in Brooklyn and there's this guy by the water and he's known as the screamer. And it's sad he lost his wife, but he goes out every morning and he screams and people think it's crazy. I look at that and I'm like, that is a way to process your grief. Like, that is a way to express. He's also not doing it inside where, you know, inside voices. He's doing it in a place where it's actually fine. And we look at that as, oh my gosh, like, cool it, be quiet. We don't allow ourselves the chance to, to, to feel, to express, to cry. And you know, when I was in a mental health treatment facility at the end of 2020, I'm very open about that experience. I think a lot of people should do it. A lot of people do have experiences like that. They just call it like vipassana or they go to, they go to their retreats. But it was a container, a safe container for 30 days for me to feel expressed and do whatever I needed to do with without being told I was doing something wrong. I could have a temper tantrum, I could be rude, which I wish that I hadn't been in certain moments. But like, it was just what I needed to do to get underneath the anger and it was okay. And when you tell a kid who's having a tantrum, you don't like what's coming up with the big feelings. Like, let it out, let's feel, let's have a space to feel it and then let's move on. If you just try to suppress those emotions, then that is why people are just so programmed of like, okay, wake up do the thing because they're not. They don't feel safe enough to do anything else. We're just taught that we need to be in a box and we need to be quiet. And if we're crying, stop crying. If, you know, it's. I don't ever want to be in a place where I feel like I can't express myself. And then. And I also don't really care what people think anymore. When I'm expressing myself, I don't go, I'm not a screamer in the park. But. But if I needed to do that, I would find a place to do. I scream into a pillow. But yeah, I feel like it's our, our expression and our. Like we try to control everything around us and also who we are. And surrender is surrender to all of the feelings, all of the experiences.
- [54:44]
Michael Chernow
I had a conversation on my podcast years ago with a guy named Gino Wickman, and he is a very successful entrepreneur. He's created something called the eos, the Entrepreneur Operating System. Cool. And this guy I looked at, I read his books, I looked at him as like this, like, you know, sort of mountain of a man. And I got him on the podcast and he said, I take 150 days off every year. And I was like, it's a lot.
- [55:11]
Alex Silver Fagan
It's like half the day, half the year.
- [55:13]
Michael Chernow
Damn. I was like, how? You know, in my mind, I was like, you know, first thought, like judgment, like, oh, he's obviously. And yet he wrote that maybe he was a rich kid or something. Yeah, you know, like that's my first thought. And then he broke it down for me and he was like, you know, because I was like, okay, well, let's unpack that. I want to understand how can I do that? You know? And he was like, well, I take every weekend off, so that's 104 days right there out the gate. I don't work on the weekends.
- [55:40]
Alex Silver Fagan
I didn't even know that.
- [55:41]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, so 52 times 2 is, you know, 104. And then he said, and then he said, I take two 10 day vacations a year with my family and I take the whole month of August off. So works out to roughly 150 days a year.
- [55:58]
Alex Silver Fagan
That's crazy that my first reaction was, oh, my God, that's.
- [56:01]
Michael Chernow
That's like half the year.
- [56:02]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right? When that's actually just, wow, okay.
- [56:05]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [56:05]
Alex Silver Fagan
But then I'm just noticing my bias. Like, what? I've been programmed.
- [56:08]
Michael Chernow
Totally. And so when he said that to me, that was like five years ago. And I'm telling you, something clicked in me to make me want to start drawing thicker lines in the sand. Right where I was like, I can have a really good balanced life, you know, and now living in upstate New York for the last five and a half years, so nice. Like I have gotten a taste of this slower lifestyle, balanced life and I would not trade it for anything. Like I have so much work to do still. Right. Like, and I don't mean work and building businesses, cuz that too. But I still have so much work to do on like the calibration. But you know, yeah, there, there is, there is, there, there is a light at the end of this tunnel. And I know that specifically the younger generations are seeing this. Right. Like, you know, people are saying that, you know, alcohol is down 40%, you know, across the board. Right. And you can say yay, like that's great. But really what's happening is people are not drinking as much because they're not going out as much.
- [57:27]
Alex Silver Fagan
Right.
- [57:27]
Michael Chernow
And they're not connecting as much in a bar because they're connecting on a phone.
- [57:32]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah.
- [57:32]
Michael Chernow
And marijuana has now become legal and a lot of people have just also gone to marijuana as opposed to alcohol.
- [57:38]
Alex Silver Fagan
Yeah, we've, we've, the, the addiction, the dopamine has just transferred to something else. Right. It's, you know, the whole success is really working less, I think. So success is living more. And we feel, I'm even just recognizing my own bias when you said his 150 days off. And that is, that is, that is just the bare minimum of what we should be taking off. And also I don't even know if it's like are we taking off from something or is it we just are being more conscious of other people's access to us. Because I don't dislike my work, I love what I do. I love sharing on social media, I love teaching, I love creating, I love connecting with other people. So I don't necessarily need to be taking off from working. But for me, the time that is just where I can sit and be alone is that is the off. And the off is turning on. Like we get to turn on and listen and be in dialogue with ourselves, with God, with the earth. For me, relationship with God is being outside. Like that is where I feel is.
- [58:52]
Michael Chernow
It taking 150 days off or is it taking 150 days on?
- [58:56]
Alex Silver Fagan
That's right.
- [58:57]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [58:58]
Alex Silver Fagan
And just with yourself, where you get to choose who you are in relationship with. Like you're with your family and rather than having your phone open, where we feel this pressure that everybody has access to us at any moment and if we get a message, we have to respond immediately. We don't even have to do that. Like, that is a chance to also take on.
- [59:21]
Michael Chernow
Just imagine. But just like, this is such a great way to finish this thing. Right.
- [59:26]
Alex Silver Fagan
I feel like we can go for hours, but we should finish it.
- [59:30]
Michael Chernow
But we have been tuned to think that a day not working is off.
- [59:39]
Alex Silver Fagan
Correct.
- [59:40]
Michael Chernow
That is fucked up.
- [59:42]
Alex Silver Fagan
It is. It is.
- [59:42]
Michael Chernow
I'm taking the day off. Like, when the light switch is off, you can't see. Right? Like, no, you're actually taking the day on.
- [59:53]
Alex Silver Fagan
Correct.
- [59:53]
Michael Chernow
And we got to coin that. Yeah, that's real. That's real. Alex, this is such a fun conversation. You know, like, I do feel like you and I could probably go on and on and on for hours and hours. And it's so much fun to have you back on the show. And I'm so happy to hear that you're back in New York and you're feeling refreshed after a year on yeah Baby.
- [60:20]
Alex Silver Fagan
And it was hard, but that's part of the work. The work or the. Well, yeah, maybe that's where the part of the dance. I'm like, like, I don't want to. I want to get away from that word. But that's okay. It's. It's an okay word.
- [60:33]
Michael Chernow
Where can people follow along with your. You and your journey?
- [60:36]
Alex Silver Fagan
Sure. So online social media Instagram is where you can find me at. Alex Silverfagan is my handle. I do have a program that might launch by the time this podcast goes out. I'm not sure. So I'm just going to say that there is a 12 week strength training program. It's called the foundation that will be live where you can do all the workouts that I do. There's kettlebell classes included, yoga flows, and that'll be really exciting. So I'm. I'm happy to be able to push that out. And who knows what's next? I think there's this time on has given me a lot of new opportunity and awareness and faith in this journey. So, yeah, thank you so much for having me back. I. I've started in. I started my career when I was 23. I'm 33 now and I have done many a podcast, posted many a social media Instagram post, and sometimes I look back and I'm like, oh gosh, like, who was I then? But I have a lot of respect for this journey and who I was then was exactly who I needed to be. So that podcast before was exactly who I needed to be and right now is exactly who we are. And so I just feel really blessed that I get to continue to have these little chapter markers and I get to do that with you.
- [61:54]
Michael Chernow
You're awesome.
- [61:55]
Alex Silver Fagan
Thank you. So are you.
- [61:57]
Michael Chernow
Wow. All right. I mean, Alex got chills. I got chills. I would love to give you the gift of rephrasing or reframing a day off to a day on. You know, when we are thrust into our work life. Whether you are a self employed entrepreneur or an employee, you know, chances are there is a system that we have to follow. You know, most people say in business, you know, without systems and processes, you're lost. And so that means that there is a, a guardrail in most scenarios when it comes to business work, whatever it is. And when you take the day off, it means that you don't have to live within those guardrails necessarily. You don't have to show up at a certain time, you don't have to take the certain call, you don't have to be on a certain meeting, you don't have to leave at a certain time, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I actually think now talking to Alex and we covered so many different things from God, to ways in which we look at fitness, to the current day climate and how we are sort of all filtered into this system of go.
- [63:15]
Alex Silver Fagan
Go, go, go, go.
- [63:18]
Michael Chernow
I think the day off should actually be the day on and so I would encourage you to think about it that way. You are turning on when you are not at your third place work or second place work. This was such a fun conversation. It would mean the world to me if you shared it. Post on social media, text this podcast link to a friend, give us a five star rating and review. If you enjoyed it, it would mean a lot to me. That is how we grow the damn podcast. I've been doing this for a long time now. I've been doing this for a damn long time and I love it. And I want this to be a bigger part of creatures of habit and also my life because I thrive when connecting with humans at scale and this is a way for me to do it. And you guys get to reap the benefits of that. So give us a five star rating and review and share the podcast. I love you guys. I appreciate you for listening and subscribing. Until the next one, Peace.