← Kreatures Of Habit Podcast 
Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
I’ll Die Making It Work, PERIOD with Kreatures of Habit GM, Victor Lee
01:02:14
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- [00:00]
Michael Chernow
But I wanted to create a brand called Creatures of Habit because I've learned through my success story coming from addiction to recovery, that our habits actually do dictate success, happiness, failure, misery. Both sides of the coin, right? Habits wear two hats. They could be really awesome and change your life in a super positive way, or what most people think of habits are really bad and you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta kick them, right? Like most people will. When you, when you hear the word habit, most people go to bad habit is a bad habit. I wanted to sort of change the optics, change the perception on habit, because, yes, habits almost killed me. But I have understood that habits are so much more powerful on the positive side of the coin because they can totally change anyone in a positive way. I'm Michael Chernow and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast. Our habits will make us or break us. It's just that simple. I've lived on both sides of the tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing some of the most inspiring, motivating and high performing humans I've encountered to share their daily habits, routines and rituals that help them stay on top of their game and ultimately happy. So sit back, relax, and pay attention because what you hear over the next 30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life. Let's go. What up? Welcome back to the Creatures that have a Podcast. Today's episode is going to be a little bit different. It's a little bit different. I don't think I have ever been interviewed on the Creatures of Habit podcast. I have shared my story. I've shared bits and pieces of the story of how Creatures of Habit came to be, but I've actually never brought someone in to ask me questions. And so we've got a bunch of things going on at Creatures of Habit. And the most recent addition to the Creatures of Habit team is, is a very good friend, actually. Victor Lee, who is now the general manager of Creatures of Habit, was introduced to me through our mutual friend Gary V. Gary Vaynerchuk. And Gary introduced me to Victor in 2020. Victor and I got on a call. It was just an intro call. I remember exactly, I remember exactly where I was sitting. I remember exactly when it was. And, and that call lasted about two hours. And I kind of knew coming off of that call that I wanted to figure out a way to work with Victor. He is a marketing executive veteran for years. He was at Digitas for a long time. Hasbro I mean, the guy helped launch Transformers. Then he went over to be the CMO of rxbar during the Kellogg's acquisition and spent some time there. He's a wealth of knowledge. I've learned so much from him. So when. When. When I was launching Creatures of Habit, Victor came in as my right hand to really help me bring the. The brand to market and off the ground. And I don't think that I would have been able to do it without Victor the way we did it. Victor worked with me for about a year and then stepped back and went on to do a couple of other probably much bigger things. And when about six months ago, I just gave Vic a call and I said, hey, you know, what are you up to? And he was like, interesting. You call me.
- [03:58]
Victor Lee
I.
- [03:59]
Michael Chernow
He was like, I just decided to. To. To figure. Figure out my next move. And that's when I just went into in for the attack. And I said, brother, you got to come back. You got to come back for. For as long as I can have you. And he, you know, he took a little time to think about it and then came back to me and said, let's. Let's go supercharge this thing. And it was. It was an incredible. It was incredible phone call. I'm very, very excited that Victor's now been back with Creatures of Habit as the general manager of the business for the last three months. And he is, you know, kind of the. The yin to my yang. The guy challenges every single thing I propose. There is not a single thing that I propose that Victor doesn't challenge. And I think some founders would find that really difficult. And there are times where I do. But I would also tell you that if you don't have people on your team that are smarter than you, that have more experience than you, that are not challenging you on a daily basis, you have to find new people. I love being challenged, and. And Victor's really good at that. So Vic is coming on the show today to ask me a whole bunch of questions because we believe that there's way more information that is stuck in between my two ears that needs to be out into the open about our brand and what we're doing. And so, Vic, welcome to the show.
- [05:27]
Victor Lee
Wow. Well, thank you for that. A couple things. First, to double down on what you said about challenging you. It's not every single thing, because what you just said as, first off, I need to hire you as my hype man, because I will not challenge anything you just said about me. So let's just if there's a first in anything, that's 1, 2. I did not launch Transformers because I launched in the 80s out of Japan, but I did help it a lot. So I just don't want Hasbro chasing me down and saying, wait, you didn't do it. That was false information. And thirdly, here's what's interesting, and thank you for that. In all honesty, really, thank you for that introduction. I really need you as a hype man or God forbid, someday deliver my eulogy, because that was fantastic. But yes, I remember starting a while back, and I think it's four plus years almost. How time flies. But the interesting fun fact, when you or us, or we or all of us scale this business multibillion dollars and were everywhere and. And suddenly there is. There's. There's no turning the corner. Whatever. I know about Creatures of Habit. And then suddenly there's this big Jeopardy. Show and there's a question, who made the first official sale on Creatures of Habit? Well, I can say right now the answer is me, because I remember those days, that day when we launched that site. And I said, all right, Mike, I'm hitting the button. And there was this, oh, my goodness. Moment of all right, are we ready? Are we ready? And once the button was hit, obviously not anybody was waiting on the. On a website or the Internet saying, I'm going to buy something. So as much as we qaed it beforehand, I said, I gotta place an order, because God forbid. And we said to ourselves, let's just wait till late at night when there's not a lot of people on the Internet, or at least the people who are on the Internet buy oatmeal, they're doing something else. And I made the first order. So let that go down in history on that. So let's jump into it. Thank you for that. So what this will be, which will be fun, too, and I love it, and I know I've heard a lot of this, but I want you to tell everybody who's listening on this that this is the origin story. And this is going to blend in your origin story as well as the creature's habits or origin story. So most listeners of this podcast or followers of you, they really understand a little bit of both. And they run in parallel paths. But what I want to do is connect them now, both the journeys, because they are locked. Your personal journey and the creatures habit journey are locked. They're handcuffed. There is not one without the other. So what I really want to go into is go back a Little bit, let's say almost 10 years. You were very successful. You were on TV. You had a face that should be on billboards and magazines, which you probably were. And at one point you had one of the most trendiest, hottest, hardest to get into restaurants in the simplicity of making meatballs. And because I remember that vividly, because I used to come to New York all the time and everybody was telling me about the meatball shop. I can never get it. So I say it can't be that good if I can't get it. Because I thought I can walk into anywhere. But that wasn't the case. So then you opened up Seymour's. Now we're going to jump to around 1920. 19, 2020. You had an itch.
- [08:47]
Michael Chernow
What happened if I rewind a little bit. I was getting ready to sell the majority of my equity at Seymour's in 2019. And I had known that that date was coming up because when I took on a partner at Seymour's about a year in, a little over a year in, we made a deal. And the deal was because I structured the deal. Hey, I'm not a good. I'm not going to take this brand from six restaurants to 600. You are a great six to 600 guy. So if you and I can scale this thing to a nice eight figure number, where we're profitable, the stores are doing well, everything feels good. I would want you to buy the majority of my equity so that you have full freedom to go and scale it the way you see fit. And I don't want to stand in your way, but what I'm going to ask you is I'm really good at the 0 to 5, 5, 6 unit. Don't stand in my way as we get there. Because the culture, the community, the brand, all of that stuff is super duper important in the early days. And that's what I'm really good at. We shook hands. We agreed on it. Obviously, lots of documentation. But I just knew once we were once 2019 sort of hit. We were there. The business was. We had six stores, healthy, eight figures, doing well. So we began the conversation. Hey. Or I began the conversation. This might be the year. This might be the year to do the deal. And as we got further and further along in 2019, Jay and I had made it. You know, we were pretty sure that we were gonna. I was gonna exit and I was gonna keep a percentage of the business. I was gonna stay on the board. I was gonna advise. But he was going to be the CEO driving the train from 2020 forward. We did that deal in November of 2019. I, as a founder in the world of hospitality, never really saw myself building business outside of brick and mortar, because that's what I knew. That was what I was. Not only is it what I knew, it's what I loved, and it's what I was really good at. And I'd been doing it since I was 12. So I was in the restaurant world for, you know, at that point, whatever it is. 12, 22, 32, 27 years. And I had begun kicking the tires of this, of this new brand, this new idea called Creatures of Habit. Now, why did I want to call, why did I want to create a brand called Creatures of Habit? I wanted to create a brand called Creatures of Habit because I've learned through my success story coming from addiction to recovery, that our habits actually do dictate success, happiness, failure, misery, both sides of the coin, right? Habits wear two hats. They could be really awesome and change your life in a super positive way, or what. Most people think of habits are really bad and you gotta kick them, right? Like most people will. When you, when you hear the word habit, most people go to bad habit is a bad habit. I wanted to sort of change the optics, change the perception on habit, because, yes, habits almost killed me. But I have understood that habits are so much more powerful on the positive side of the coin because they can totally change anyone in a positive way. So I, and I'm a real creature of habit. If I find something I like that makes me feel good, that I see progress and positivity in, I just stick with it. I stick with it. And it has a lot to do with consumption, all kinds of consumption. But in this case, nutritional consumption for me was something that was given to me as a suggestion when I was in that place at 23 years old and just desperate for anything. It was, hey, what you put into your body is ultimately going to dictate how you feel. And what you've been putting in your body for the last 11 years on the streets of New York has made you feel the way you do right now. So let me help you and start giving you suggestions of things that you can put into your body to start building up that self esteem, confidence, optimism and health. I kind of caught on to that very early on. So my next project, I said, all right, I'm going to open up. I'm going to open up a restaurant called Creatures of Habit because I believe in habit so strongly. It's a cool name. I'll be able to create a wellness restaurant in New York City that does not currently exist. Because most healthy wellness restaurants in New York are either lunch places that you are not going to sit down at and enjoy a meal, or vegan or vegetarian restaurants that look, smell and feel like healthy restaurants. So I said, I'm going to create this, this really cool vibed restaurant. The food is going to be healthy and delicious. We're going to call out different diet protocols. We'll call out keto items, we'll call out paleo items. So people that are eating these different sort of protocols, different diets, different meal plans didn't feel weird ordering a keto dish, right? They can come into the restaurant, they know exactly that. They know that we're going to have that stuff on the menu and then they can just. It's like their go to spot now. The caveat to how I was planning on scaling that restaurant was very different than what I had done in the past. The vision for the scale of that business was not in, excuse me, scaling the brick and mortar businesses. It was actually using the restaurant as an incubator for products to ultimately invest in, into Retail and D2C. I was going to use the business, I was going to use the brick and mortar business as like a real lab with real life human beings to test products to then scale through cpg. And I came up with this idea. I thought it was a really strong idea because I didn't love the scaling of brick and mortar anymore. And I thought, hey, like, if I can create a line of products in this world of wellness with the name Creature of Habit, Creatures of Habit. I feel like I've got a really cool brand in a business and we can always, we can always iterate, we can always test different ingredients. We can make sauces, we can make oatmeal, we can make a whole bunch of different things to really test on the customers that are coming in. Anyway, I kicked the tires on this and I built this, this sort of plan in this business. I'd raised some cash and I was about to sign a lease in Williamsburg, Brooklyn for my dream restaurant. I found the most incredible dream restaurant. Now actually famous Veselka is in that space. But I found this single level, single, single story structure, brick, beautiful, eight skylights, like in Brooklyn. And I was like, this is my spot. This is going to be my office. This is where I'm going to launch Creatures of Habit. And. And we were literally about to sit down at the table to sign this lease. I had been negotiating the lease all January And February. And the landlords loved the business. They really wanted me to be their tenant. First week of March, we started hearing grumblings of this virus. And I was like, oh, boy. I like, called investors. I was like, something seems a little fishy here, a little funky. I'm gonna, like, push these guys, keep these guys on ice for a minute until we hear what happens. Second week of March hit, and the world stopped, right? So what it forced me to do was take a deep, long breath, and it forced me to think about my future career because I had never thought I was not going to have a restaurant. It just. Even with the idea of creatures of habit, there was always going to be my medium, a restaurant, and nobody, including myself, because I had 250 grand on the line for that business as well. I always invest 10% of everything I bring to market. So I was like, okay, I'm not putting in the money. I'm not expecting any investors to invest in brick and mortar right now. I'm going to call everybody. Putting this thing on pause, packed up some bags. My wife and kids moved to upstate New York. And I hired an executive coach because I just didn't see this thing coming to an end, right? And no one did anytime soon. So I was like, I am going to obviously have to do what we all hear about the pivot. And I knew that there was a pivot that had to happen. What was I going to do? For some reason out the gate, I didn't think going directly to CPG was the move because I was so, like, the vision was this restaurant. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, what am I going to do? Like, am I just going to sit back for a year and wait for this thing to like, what? And so I hired this executive coach, and she worked with me a couple of days a week for about three months to make it clear to me and almost in some ways convince me that I was a creative entrepreneur and a restaurant was solely a medium I could create in any industry I wanted to create in. And I just had to come up with the idea. So what I do my creative process on, when it comes to business, when it comes to sort of iterating in specific business or on specific business ideas, what I tend to do is I go on either long walks or runs, and I don't listen to music, I don't listen to podcasts. I have a pen and pad in my pocket, and I will go intentionally out to think about what it is I'm trying to uncover. And so I Did that multiple times a week. And for whatever reason, towards the end of that three month period, I was on a run. And I think it was like the end of winter, it was like the beginning of the spring, and I was on a run upstate. And it kind of just all came to me. It was sitting right under my nose the whole time. My oatmeal. I'd been eating this oatmeal since the day I got sober. Because the guy who I was introduced to the day I got sober, who's still a very good friend of mine, he told me he wrote this plan out for me. And that plan was very clear. It was very structured. It told me exactly when to wake up, what to do as soon as I get up, what to eat, and when both for all three meals, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. But he just, like, made it clear to me that, like, how I start my day is ultimately going to dictate my success for the rest of the day or my failure. And if I was able to get my footing in the early part of my day, I had a far greater chance of succeeding and getting to bed sober. And for me, success in those days, and I didn't know it then because I was so new to this, but like, for me, success in those days was just not drinking and doing drugs. That was it. And if I got to bed, if I got my head to the pillow sober, I won. He told me to eat oatmeal every morning. He told me to eat oatmeal every morning. And I think for him, he obviously would have never projected that, him telling me to eat oatmeal every morning being a business that I've created 20 years later. But at the end of the day, he told me to eat oatmeal every morning. And I am really good at taking direction as, you know, like, I, I just, like, you might have to fight me a little bit. But, like, I, I'm not. I, like, if, if there's somebody who I, who I trust and respect that gives me advice or suggests something that might not always be what I want or what I think. Like, I've, I, I'm, I'm good at taking direction. So he told me to eat oatmeal every morning. And he said, you can make it taste any way you want. You can add nuts and fruit and maple syrup and honey, and you can add protein to it, whatever you want to do. I had been using this oatmeal as my first meal of the day for years. Years. And I developed this ritual and recipe That I never thought I was going to make a business. I just never, I never thought of it on that run. I said, holy smokes. Like, I have been fueling my body with this meal. It is not only something that I feel very good about consuming every day, it makes me feel good. I never feel, like, stuffed, like, in a bad way. I am a professional athlete. I've competed in bodybuilding, in Muay Thai, kickboxing. I've run multiple marathons. Like, this is what I start my day with every day. And it's delicious. Unfortunately, it takes me 25 minutes to make every morning on that run. I said, man, how amazing would it be if I was able to figure out a way to get all those ingredients? At that time, it was like 14 ingredients. If I was to include my, my morning supplement stack, how can I get all those ingredients into a pouch and be able to tell people that this is the way they should start their day? Nutritionally, this is what I've been doing for 16 years. This is such an easy, easy win. This is such an easy hack. And it has truly not only stood as a, a sign of success to me, because in those days, like I said, success to me was just getting to bed sober. And that was the first meal I ate every morning. So it was a real sign of success for me. It was like how I put my first foot forward every day nutritionally. But it also has completely sustained my life as an athlete, as a father, a husband and an entrepreneur every single day. Do I think everybody needs to eat this every single day? Probably not. Do I think people that do eat it? Do I think that there's a lot of people that do eat it every single day? You bet your ass. A lot of thousands of them now, right? And so I kind of got back from that run and I said, this is it. And I told my wife, hey, I figured it out. She was like, what did you figure out? I said, I figured out what, what the next 10 years of my life is going to be like. And she was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, I'm going to make oatmeal. And she like, she was like, what happened on that run? Like, did you get hit by a car? Like, what happened on that run? Like, you know, I had 13 restaurants in New York City, and I went from owning 13 restaurants in New York City, which I still owned and had owner, you know, a decent sized equity stake in, to saying, I'm going to make now oatmeal, because I had never talked to her about that. It literally just kind of came to me on that run and. And that night, you know, I put a quarter million dollars into a bank account, and I started calling everybody I knew in the world of consumer goods. I asked for as much help as possible. And I spent a year working on the formula, over 66 different iterations of this formula, until we came to the MVP of what is now known as Meal one. But I knew that I had a strong business because I think we all know you put 10 people in a room and you ask them all if you can snap your fingers right now and be in the best shape of your life and have optimized health, would you do it? I would argue to say nine or 10 out of those 10 people would say, absolutely, 100%. I would love that. Best shape of my life. Healthy feeling good. Like, yes. It's a. It's a. It's a possibility for anyone and everyone, right? And it all starts in the morning. It's just the way it is. It all starts in the morning. The decisions that you make from the moment you open up, your eyes dictate what you are going to look, feel, and how you're going to perform. And so I just. I said, if I could get this into a pouch. I can't sell going to bed early. I can't sell waking up early. I can't sell the walk to the gym. I can't sell walking 10,000 steps. I can't sell not drinking. I can't sell not using drugs. I can't sell these habits. But I can give you a habit that kickstarts better decisions throughout the rest of the day. I was like, I can get a habit in front of people. And I created a cool brand because I know how important brand is. It's how important brand has been for me as an entrepreneur, how important community has been, how important culture has been. I figured, man, if I can do it for meatballs and I can do it for sustainable seafood, I know I can do it for oatmeal. Like, I know I can wrap this. I know I can wrap a bowl of oatmeal in a really cool brand with a really strong mission of just better habits, better life. And that's what I did. And I called up Gary. I called up Gary when I felt like it was ready, and I said, gary, you know, bear with me. Give me. Give me a little time to sort of get this out. But I've created this oatmeal brand, and I. And I'm gonna. I'm Gonna drop a really cool line of apparel to go with it. It's called Creatures of Habit. And it's this high protein overnight oat business that I believe in with my core, like at my core. And we're gonna launch and direct to consumer and then eventually we'll get into stores. But I really do believe in this thing. I'm gonna make oatmeal cool, man. And he said, this is kith meets Quaker. Where do I sign? And it was like that period and I like got off the phone and I was like, that's it, it's on. You know, and then one thing led to the next. Now one thing I'll mention is that like, you know, obviously it's not easy. It's fucking hard as hell. Launching a business is super hard. But one thing that I've learned about being a founder and a CEO is. And it was. And I had to learn this because I didn't always think this way. As a founder and a CEO, I don't have to be good at knowing all the answers. What I have to be good at is getting the questions answered. I don't have to know how to answer all the questions. But what I am required as my job as a founder or CEO, what I am required to do is to getting those questions answered. So if you can get questions answered as a founder, no matter what, you can do anything. And I know that's a skill set that I have. And so I just leaned all in on that because I didn't know anything about cpg. I didn't know anything about digital marketing. I knew about brand, I knew about personal brand, I knew about marketing. I didn't know how the digital world worked. I remember sitting on these calls in the early days with you and Paul and a couple of other marketing people, and it was just like, aov, ltv, roaz, new customer roas. And I'm just sitting here, like, literally just googling, like on the call, like, oh my God, what had. How am I gonna do this? Like, I have no idea what these guys. These guys might as well be talking Indian. I just didn't know. And finally I said, guys, please speak English. Please talk to me. Like, I, like, I've never done this before. Because guess what? I've never done this before. And you know, and we, we, we, we, you know, we, we did it. And, and we're here. You know, we're here three and at three years and whatever it is, five months later. So my story of coming out of addiction and into recovery paved the path for this brand because I learned that our habits will make us or break us. And if you can find things to put in your path that are flagpoles of success, could be, as, you know, could be small, big, whatever it is. You know what they say to people that are training for a marathon or training for a race or building a business, it's like, it's not about the finish line. It's about the next. Like, you know what I used to do when I was training for marathons or running these long races, I would look at, on the, on the, I would look on the road that I was running on and I'd see like a lamppost and I'd be like, dude, lamppost, just get to the lamppost. I get to that lamppost, I'd see the next one. I'd say, that's it, man. Lamppost. You know, and it. I feel the same way with habits in life. Especially if you're trying to change your life or being, you know, stepping into this world of wellness or if you're in the world of wellness and you're just trying to optimize more and more and be the best version of yourself. It's the lamppost game. So are you putting lampposts along your path throughout the day? Every day. And Meal one is a lamppost for me and a lot of people interrupting.
- [31:05]
C
This episode to share with you how we keep this podcast going and that is by you supporting us through trying out or subscribing to Meal1 on creaturesofhabit.com I am giving a 20% discount on your first order or your first subscription order, which is a serious discount. Meal1 is a superfood meal. It is a blend of gluten and glycogen glyphosate free oats. It is packed with 30 grams of plant based protein, omega 3 fatty acids, a probiotic, digestive enzymes, vitamin D3. It also has chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds and a little bit of pink Himalayan Salt. There are 37 grams of healthy carbohydrates and anywhere from 7 to 10 grams of fat depending on the flavor. You will be full for hours, people, I promise you. We developed Meal one to help you perform at your absolute best to get that incredibly healthy and convenient edge on the competition. There is not a better, more convenient meal to start your day with or use as a pre or post workout meal. The macros are perfect and sourced with the cleanest ingredients in the game. Take your performance to the next level. Make your life much easier by Saving time, be able to eat healthy without sacrificing flavor, and all while staying full for hours, making your urge to snack far, far less. Hop over to creaturesofhabit.com that is creaturesofhabit.com and use promo code K O H P O d. The number 20 for your first order of meal one today. Back to the pod.
- [32:29]
Victor Lee
That's great. So that's the origin story. Two things I really got out of that. The first one, as a marketer, we use those acronyms and words because they don't mean anything. We're just there to dazzle you with our brilliance. So now you know that, number two. No, actually, number two, what I also discovered is there was somebody that was able to change your mind on something. I've been looking for that person. I've heard there was one person. So I guess it was your executive coach that was able to convince you of something else. So I kind of need her number to understand she's amazing. What her cheat code was for that. But in all seriousness, that is really the origin story. So now let's jump ahead. Now we're at launch and you mentioned it, which was a great segue from the Gary V introduction. So I remember he called me and in typical Gary form, there was a text, was like, I need to talk to you. So, okay, what's going on? He says, I'm going to introduce you to guys, to this guy named Michael Chernow. He meatball shop, blah, blah, blah. He's starting something. I'm going to talk to him. You need to be a part of it. And Gary and I go back a long time when I was at Hasbro, brand new, it was around 2011 and he just started his agency. I needed to push the business a little bit. I need to put my footprint because I was new at Hasbro as their head of digital marketing. So I brought Gary in to help us. And that is one of those, when you look at back at your career, there's a handful, if you're lucky, career defining moments. And that was one of them. And since then, we developed a long relationship, personally and professionally. He's helped me throughout everything and has been nothing but a rock to me. So then it was really serendipitous. He connected it and he thought about this and that's what he does for people who don't know him well. He connects really, really, really well. So now we're connected. August 2021, we said in the beginning about to push the button. To say we had a skeletal crew would be Disrespectful to skeletons. I think we had a couple of bones, maybe a finger and a heartbeat.
- [34:38]
Michael Chernow
It was you and me.
- [34:39]
Victor Lee
Yeah.
- [34:39]
Michael Chernow
And then a couple of people that we were paying out.
- [34:41]
Victor Lee
I think I opened my door one time at the house and was like, hey, can you do me a favor and look at this website and just click things? I don't care what you do and just tell me if it works. Now, looking back a little over three years, right. What were you feeling that night? I felt the anxiety. Not for myself, for you. Where were you feeling that night? What did you feel after the first week? What did you feel after the first month? And between those three, circle back around and say, what would I tell my 4 year ago self, knowing what I know today?
- [35:16]
Michael Chernow
So this is something that I don't know whether or not this is a common characteristic amongst entrepreneurs, but I could just tell you that it is very apparent for me. I have never felt anxiety or fear when developing or launching a business. I just haven't. I have absolutely felt anxiety and fear while operating, without a doubt. But when it comes to launching a business that I am so confident in, I just didn't think for a minute that we weren't going to succeed. And I think something that I have that has been attractive to other people, not only investors, but customers and people in the community, is I am like, unshakably optimistic. Unshakably optimistic. I just am. I don't think we will fail. And I can honestly say this is me speaking right now in the present. I will die making it work, period. That's the confidence that I have in my drive to succeed. And so, knock on wood, I've been successful in business. And what I've learned is that unwavering optimism needs a counter like you to be like, slow down, bro, slow it down. Like, you gotta know that, you know, I need guardrails. But I do think that the unwavering optimism shielded me from anxiety in those early days because I don't know where I got it from or how or why I have it, but the confidence that I have in developing a business and launching it and then continuing to push when most people quit is just who I am.
- [38:06]
Victor Lee
So we launched first year. There's really not a lot of, hey, we need to be here. We just need to make sure we got a heartbeat. And we did. And personally looking back on it, I think we delivered. Hard to say if we exceeded or not expectations, but we're alive second year, continue down the path. Now, I think as you Know, as you just said, the optimism, we had a little confidence, we had a little swagger. Let's get a first full year. Because August through December wasn't a first full year. Let's get through a first new year.
- [38:43]
Michael Chernow
And realistically, we weren't really able get on our feet because Meta did not let us invest any kind of cash until mid to late October. That's realistic, right? So August was obviously a wash. September, they barely let us spend any money. October, they started to let us spend a little money. And then I would say November is when we actually had a month. Right.
- [39:02]
Victor Lee
And you're right into the holiday season, which is hard to predict, and you really need to ramp up to get into holiday. So we start the new year, we're scaling up, you do another year. A lot of new faces in and out, partners, vendors, agencies. We're starting to develop our business habit, which was great. And the best part about it is we started seeing a lot of good signs of health. And you often say, whether it's in the restaurant business or CPG business, hey, your first couple of years, you'll know. And at that point, we knew we weren't one foot in the grave. We were barely even standing on top of it. We were like, I think we have something. So now we've got the mojo. Looking at it right now from the business standpoint and the growth standpoint, pretty impressive cap table, pretty impressive growth. Three years. I think a lot of people investing would probably tell you the exact same thing. What's happening now? What do you think that is? What's driving it?
- [40:19]
Michael Chernow
I believe that our focus on subscription and all of 2024, real heavy focus on retention. And by the way, three years ago, I would never have been able to articulate that. I have no. I would have no idea what that meant. But I think our real focus on retention, subscription conversion, recurring revenue in 2024 is what is the most impressive so far. Now, we didn't go. We were. Our goal for 2024 wasn't to, you know, blow out top line. It was really, let's build a viable business that has strong recurring revenue. I mean, we even had conversations of saying, you know, it would be really interesting to see what would happen if we just didn't spend anything on paid media for a little while and just, just saw the business, you know, just go immediately go, turn, turn profit right away. Like, you cut, you cut off Meta, boom, you're profitable, that's it. Because you have that recurring revenue. It's pretty amazing place to be So I think right now that we spent a lot of time sort of mitigating burn in 2024 and focusing on subscription conversions, focusing on retention. Now we're in 2025. Back to innovation. And so 2025 is an, is a, is a, is a focused, focused, not doing a lot of, lot of things. Focus and innovation. Bringing a couple of things to market and beginning, beginning to, beginning to think about what a potential retail strategy looks like. Right. So raising some money, bringing a new product to market, that's really exciting. And then thinking about 2026 and 27. But definitely this is a growth year for us.
- [42:28]
Victor Lee
Good. The cap table. So for everybody who may not be familiar with it, these are people that are involved in the business behind the scenes, put money in, have some kind of equity or whatever the case may be, it's a pretty impressive list. We talked about Gary on there, but there are a lot of people on there that are the who's who's of whatever culture of CPG of business. I would argue there's one of the greatest marketers of all time on there. And. But I'll be the only person saying that. And so explain to me how they're helping. What are they doing?
- [43:03]
Michael Chernow
When somebody feels like they're part of something, they're inclined to want to talk about it. Right. And I think a lot of angel investors that are in a position to write checks into brands and people, really, I think it's, it's almost more people and then brand, the brand has to support the person, but they are inclined to want to talk about it. And the cool thing about that is that you're not, you're never going to be top of mind for, for every single person on the cap table. But anytime they see something about you or they see something about the brand, it puts a smile on their face and they're excited to mention it. So the beauty of having a cap table with people that I truly am grateful for, I love, I respect, is that. And I don't ask for a lot of things, but I need help with something. I need to figure out a resource. I need a little bit of a mention. I've got a pool of amazing human beings that are far more successful than I am that I can tap into and ask for some help. Because I do know from the first day that I made a decision to change my life, the number one thing I had to get comfortable with was asking for help. And so asking for help is the one piece of advice I give every single entrepreneur. You know, starting Entrepreneur. And it's the one thing that most people struggle with the most. Asking for help. I've gotten very comfortable with it. So what do I think the cap table does? I mean, the cap table, obviously, when you have people like that on your cap table, it's a really nice sort of like it's, it's almost like a, like a resume, right? It's almost like a resume for a founder to say, hey, like this person has been able to get these people to, to give them a stamp of approval that, hey, like, you know, is this thing going to be a billion dollar company? Who knows? But I'm putting my money behind that guy to see if it's worth, if he, you know, if there's anybody that can do it, I think that guy's going to do it. I'm going to put my money where my mouth is. So you just get, you just get Resources Access advisory. That is what a cap table of highly influential people bring to a founder like me.
- [45:40]
Victor Lee
Okay, so now I'm going to introduce them to you. Because I didn't tell you about this before, I'm going to rapid fire some questions.
- [45:46]
Michael Chernow
Cool.
- [45:46]
Victor Lee
So in your quickest 5 seconds, 10 seconds or less, answer them off the top of your head and they're going to be all over the place. So I'm going to prepare you for that, which I'm sure you'll be fine. So walk me through the purpose, the intention of how you created this product. Meal 1.
- [46:02]
Michael Chernow
The intention of creating this product was I wanted to be able to get a habit into people's hands that was super delicious, incredibly optimized between protein, carbohydrates and fats, and convenient.
- [46:13]
Victor Lee
So for somebody who's listening, who's skeptical about oatmeal in general or even overnight oats, what would you want them to know before they try meal one for the first time?
- [46:23]
Michael Chernow
There's seven different flavors, so we'll help you make a happy decision. It's got 30 grams of protein, so it's going to help you from stopping stressing out about that protein in the morning. And it is unbelievably easy and convenient to make. So it's delicious. It's easy to make, and it's got 30 grams of protein.
- [46:41]
Victor Lee
There's a lot of oatmeal in the marketplace. I've worked on another oatmeal brand in the past too, so I know it's tough. And in some cases most people, it's a specific. I like it or I don't. So what makes Meal one different than all the other endless traditional and non traditional oatmeals.
- [47:01]
Michael Chernow
This is not oatmeal. This is a superfood oat based meal. It is packed with optimization.
- [47:10]
Victor Lee
What's a common misconception about overnight oats that you want to change through meal one?
- [47:16]
Michael Chernow
Most people struggle to get protein in the morning. Most people that are looking to that are either on the wellness path or on the healthy journey or looking to get onto the healthy path or onto the healthy journey. Anybody that they ask for advice will tell them you must have protein in your diet, a substantial amount of protein in your diet. This high protein highway is not a fad. This high protein way of living is actually been proven to not only help you lose weight, but build muscle, sustain muscle and live a more optimized life. And most people struggle to get protein into their diet. I Creatures of Habit has figured out a way to give people 30 grams of protein in a delicious pout in a delicious form that takes no time to make and there's a lot of variety in it. So it's just a, it's a convenient, delicious, optimized way to start your day nutritionally that I put years and years of trial and tribulation behind and a full year of formulation to make it as good as I could.
- [48:39]
Victor Lee
Beyond nutrition, how have you seen this product Meal wanting Creatures of Habit impact people's lives.
- [48:50]
Michael Chernow
There is a community at this brand of people that all wake up in the morning looking to be better. And when you get a lot of people together that all want to be better and there's a product in the center of it, it's success by osmosis. You just have no, you have no choice. And that has been the cornerstone of my success in business in general community. And we've done a really, really powerful job about getting people together, all together around something that they know is going to help them achieve that. I just want to be, I don't care how much better. I just want to be a little bit better, a little bit better. And so every day you have this product, it just is that signal to you. Today you're taking, you're putting the right foot in front of the left.
- [49:41]
Victor Lee
So a lot of founders struggle with the notion of a breaking point moment in their career or in their product they're doing. Was there ever a morning you woke up and said I'm close to the.
- [49:54]
Michael Chernow
Edge all the time.
- [50:00]
Victor Lee
And the last one and I'll throw in there for you. Why do you never wear shirts?
- [50:04]
Michael Chernow
Because I'm Jacked okay.
- [50:09]
Victor Lee
Well, that's all I got for you. And it was fantastic. Just to give my two cents on this, obviously I've known you well before day one and obviously there's, there's a level of partnership, respect, camaraderie, and I know we joked a lot about kind of the yin and yang of that stuff back and forth, but if there was contention, obviously I wouldn't be in the seat. That's one. So thank you and I appreciate that for inviting me into this vision. And two, just knowing what I know from day one to now, super excited, super pumped. There's so much more. Obviously we're not going to share right now that just when you have a motivation that prevents you from setting an alarm clock to wake up because that motivation is so strong inside your blood, you know you got something. And that's how I feel about this. And the last thing is you've had this podcast for years and it took this for me to get on there. Now we'll talk about it on a whole different side on that, but thank you for that and I'll throw it over to Michael now.
- [51:13]
Michael Chernow
Thank you for saying that, Victor. You know, getting a smile out of Victor is like, it's, you know, I talk about oatmeal in the morning being this amazing win. Getting a smile out of Victor is truly a win in my day. So the fact that you've been smiling, I'm going to. This is going to fill my. Yeah. Yes. This is going to fill my Victor. Get a smile out of this guy cup for a long ass time, man. It just is. Every time we are meeting new people, I always let him know that Victor is a savage and incredible at his job, but he is not warm and fuzzy and just know that the guy means well and he's smiling on the inside, but he, he's a, he's a no nonsense guy. And I feel really lucky to be able to have someone on my team that compliments me that way, that has passion for what we're doing, that really, I mean, obviously, you know, I don't think you and I would work well together if we didn't share a competitive, a competitive gene. Not against each other, just in general. Want to compete, want to show up and compete. I think you need that. I don't think that we really think about our competitors. I think that we are, you and I are just kind of competing for the win no matter what. And I love that about you. I know that you're not the kind of person that is just going to be like. Like, I think you're the kind of guy, if you just absolutely didn't believe there was more to. More to. To do, you would be honest and real about that. And if there is any part of you that thinks that we haven't kicked the tire down, down the road far enough, you are there to kick it with me. And so that is why, why I love working with you. And look, the world of wellness is literally, in the grand scheme of things has just begun. There are products out there that will tell you they're healthy, that will. Just because something's sold in a certain store, you are led to believe that it is healthy. And I wanted to create something that people can create. Not only a product, but a brand that really has touch points from wake up to wind down, that people can rely on to consume on a daily basis. I can't emphasize enough. What we consume is going to dictate how we feel, how we look, and then ultimately how we perform in life. What you ingest into your body, it is. That is the truth. It is. I have. I. Nutrition is so critical, I would argue to say nutrition is the most critical component to overall health. What you eat and what you drink is the key and the foundation and the structure to how you will live your life when it comes to your health. And I don't think anybody would argue that. So we're out here trying to participate in that story. We're out here trying to participate and. Or trying to be a parti. A component of other people's stories in less than five bucks a day. And for me, I spent a lot of my time now calling customers of our brand. I probably spend five to seven hours a week doing that at my office by myself, calling customer after customer after customer. And what that does for the brand is A, lets the customers know that we're actually real. B, fills my cup as a. As a people person, allows me to actually connect with people that we're impacting on a daily basis. C, gives up and gives us an opportunity to genuinely learn from, you know, a lot of founders, a lot of people in our space, marketers, whatever, say, listen to your customer. And the next question is, okay, how are you doing that? What are you doing? Are you reading reviews? Like, is that. And I think that's all important, but I've got a spreadsheet of every single customer I've spoken to, how we've impacted them, how they found out about us, why they love us. Obviously, I can't tell how old they are. I don't ask those kinds of questions. But like, it's just like my, you know, I kind of think about it as like my success spreadsheet because most spreadsheets I hate. That is the, is the best spreadsheet I've ever built in my life because it shows that like, I love connecting. And so we are building or we have built a brand. And there's a big difference between a brand and a product. There's a big difference between a brand and a company. We have built a brand. A brand that like, I am a living, breathing, like, manifestation of what Creatures of Habit is. I live it, I breathe it. I'm an extension of it. It is an extension of me and it's totally self sustaining. We have very clearly and have like pulled me out of a lot of our marketing material purposefully to show that, hey, Chernow is the founder of the company. This came out of Chernow's brain. This was an itch that that dude needed to scratch. And now it's, it's its own thing. And of course he's going to be involved and, but it doesn't need me to survive, which I'm so happy about. But you know, this is, this is, this is what we're doing here.
- [57:52]
Victor Lee
And so you're saying there's going to be less shirtless photos?
- [57:58]
Michael Chernow
No, just.
- [57:59]
Victor Lee
They just have to reach out to your personal Instagram.
- [58:02]
Michael Chernow
They just have to follow me on. Okay, but, but you know, I guess this is, this is all to just say that, that I am genuinely living my dream as an entrepreneur. Why? Because I get to work every day on something that I am so passionate about, that I believe in, to my, that I know because I've spoken to them. We've changed people's lives. I had a call with a guy. I mean, I get to speak to a lot of people, but I had a call with a guy probably a month and a half ago. And he picked up the phone. I could tell he was a little bit of an older guy. And I said, hey, is this X? And he said, yeah, who's this? And I said, this is Michael Chernow, the founder of Creatures of Habit, the company that you buy Meal one overnight oats from. How are you? And he was like, are you serious? I was like, as, as ever, this is, this is me. And he's like, I need to tell you a story. And I, I was like, I, I would love to hear a story. And he said, I'm 63 years old. I learned about meal one a little over a year ago. Because somebody that works for me, this young, fit gym going guy, was using your product every single day. He'd come into the warehouse and he had it. And one day he came over to me and he said, you should start using this. And the gentleman that I was speaking to said I was 280 pounds, I was on statins. And my doctor told me that if I didn't make a change, it was not looking good. And so this guy that gave me meal one, you know, he ultimately was the first step in my journey to where I am now. And a year later, I'm close to £100 down, I'm off my statins, my cholesterol is very, very good. And he said I owe it to starting my day on the right foot with meal one. And like, I was driving and I almost like crashed the car because of how grateful I felt because I, you know, like it's, you know, you create something that you think is going to work and you put it out into the market. And the truth is you think you know who's buying your product and you might have a good idea. But you don't get to hear the stories. In our world of digital brand, when you get to hear the stories, it's impossible not to believe that this thing is the real deal.
- [60:57]
Victor Lee
Let's say three years from now, let's say that's how long it takes for you to bring me back here. What are we talking about in three years?
- [61:07]
Michael Chernow
We're talking about the full portfolio. Wake up, to wind down. So, I mean, I have the vision that I have is you start your day with meal one. There's a snack in between, you know, meal one and your lunch. There's a snack in between your lunch and your dinner. And, and, and, and there is, there's, there's creature sleep, you know, to help you sort of wind down at night. And we are in retail heavily. We've come up with a couple of different versions of our product in regards to form factor. We have an office with real people working in them in person, not all virtual. And we're most likely talking to some pretty strong partners.
- [62:02]
Victor Lee
Good.
- [62:05]
Michael Chernow
That was fun.