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Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
Parenting Without Power Struggles: Chores, Allowance & Handling Separation Anxiety with Dr. Sarah Bren
01:07:07
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- [00:00]
Dr. Sarah Bren
You're talking to the worry part of their brain instead of the part of their brain that's just feeling uncomfortable with uncertainty. And so really it's not about the poop, which is a great meme now, I want to use that for everything. But it's not about the poop. It's about sitting with uncertainty. So I would speak to that, be like, hey, bud, I think it's really hard to not know for sure, and that is okay to feel that way, like you can handle that feeling. So I'm not gonna check right now and you're gonna feel unsure, and that's okay.
- [00:36]
Michael Chernow
I'm Michael Chernow, and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast. Our habits will make us or break us. It's just that simple. I've lived on both sides of the tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing some of the most inspiring, motivating, and.
- [00:59]
Podcast Announcer
High performing humans I've encountered to share their daily habits, routines, and rituals that.
- [01:04]
Michael Chernow
Help them stay on top of their game and ultimately happy. So sit back, relax, and pay attention, because what you hear over the next 30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life. Let's go. But what I want to talk to you about today. So you're a regular on the show. And for anybody that doesn't know. Sarah is a psychologist that works with parents predominantly to talk about parenting. Right. Chores. I want to dive into that and I want to understand how important chores are for children. We've spoken about structure before, which I think, I think that was on the first episode we really talked about. Like, is structure important? Is it not important for your kids? Meaning, is there a time that you go to bed at night? Is there a time that you eat dinner? Is there a time that you, you know, we are very structured in our household, but something that I have not been great at, my wife has not been great at, is chores. And I just spent nine days alone with my kids. My wife was in Costa Rica, and I was super nervous about that because that would be the longest I've ever spent alone with them. And, you know, full transparency. I was actually super nervous about it. However, it was such an incredible time. And it was totally stress free.
- [02:35]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Totally stress free.
- [02:36]
Michael Chernow
It was totally stress free.
- [02:37]
Dr. Sarah Bren
That's a. You get a gold star for your. For feeling chill about, like, I will just.
- [02:42]
Michael Chernow
It's a lot. For whatever reason, my wife does not listen to this podcast, so I'm not, you know, like, and even if she does, like, it was. In my opinion, I think the boys really just stepped up to the plate. I think they really stepped up to play because they knew that mom was not there, and they. They wanted to be. Like, for whatever reason I could. I just. I felt like they really stepped up. Like, when I was like, hey, guys, go get dressed for. They, like, walked over, took off their pajamas and got dressed when I was like, hey, guys, after dinner, like, bring your plates over to the. To the garbage, throw out the. The food that you didn't eat, and put your plates into the dishwasher. No problem. They did it.
- [03:30]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [03:30]
Michael Chernow
Hey, guys, it's time to go to bed now. One thing I will say that I did do, which probably, like, stoked them out, was I took them out of school on Friday. So Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night, we went to Vermont, all three of us, and we went to this really cool mountain. But I watched movies with them. Not during the week, because we don't watch TV during the week, but on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, we watched some movies, and they stayed up late. And so I just feel like the whole entire experience was actually just. It was wonderful. It was wonderful. The kids stepped up. We had an amazing time bonding together. We conquered this crazy mountain. They went on this hike, like, a really intense hike that. That would be hard for anybody. And they, they, they, they, they. They crushed it. But the one thing I did sort of notice on this trip was, like, on this. In this time was that we do a lot for them. We do a lot for them. And it kind of made me feel like maybe we do how they're like.
- [04:40]
Dr. Sarah Bren
9 and 10 and 7. 10 and 7 now. Okay, it's been a little while. 10 and 7. Well, talk to me. Like, what are you feeling like you would like to be seeing them doing that they're not doing?
- [04:52]
Michael Chernow
I think taking initiative in folding their clothes. Like, you know, like. Like, they'll just, like, literally. Especially my older son, he will take off his clothes for the day to get into his pajamas and just leave them right there on the floor.
- [05:07]
Dr. Sarah Bren
My kids do that, too, just for the record.
- [05:09]
Michael Chernow
No, no, I. I don't think that it's abnormal. I'm just saying that, like.
- [05:12]
Dr. Sarah Bren
But how do we. If we're noticing it and we want to shift towards something different, how do we do that?
- [05:19]
Michael Chernow
Like, what would be a good. Like, what would. Like, where do you draw the line between discipline or disciplining and just constantly reminding? Constantly reminding.
- [05:34]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Well, so I think, one. It's important to think about skill building. If your kids are always leaving their clothes on the floor, to expect them to tomorrow follow a probably multi step sequence of organizing a different behavior. That's kind of a lofty expectation. Right. Even if they're developmentally like a 10 year old could totally do that. It's not a cognitively challenging task. It's just not a habit yet. And I know you talk a lot about habits here and I wager you talk about how you build them slowly and increase the demands on those habits over time. Right. So I think sometimes we're talking about skill building and habit building and you want to look in like what psychology or child development research would probably call like the zone of proximal development or like the range at which it's a stretch but not going to break the system. So what's a skill that maybe is a reach but is reachable and break it down into small steps. So you know, maybe it's. We're going to put a hamper right here. You know, you walk in the door. I have a hamper on my main floor of my house in addition to the ones we have upstairs. Like, because I find that I leave stuff laying around on the floor all the time if there isn't a place convenient to put it. So I put a hamper like on our main hallway. And so when my kids come home and they drop all their stuff, I'm like, put your dirty stuff in the hamper versus being like go upstairs and do like making it easier, creating visual cues, practicing a habit and not doing it for them. Because if you expect them to be able to do it and you haven't taught them how to do it and then sustained that practice by scaffolding. And we can talk about scaffolding, but it's, it's a big, that's a big explanation.
- [07:41]
Michael Chernow
Scaffolding, doing it for them.
- [07:42]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Scaffolding is where you think about like when you're building a building. We're in New York City, right? There's scaffolds everywhere. The scaffold is the external structure that supports the building of the building. Right. So think about a scaffolding skill for a kid. I'm the external structure that's going to help support a skill they haven't quite mastered. Basically I'm going to support them so that they can get closer to crossing the finish line. Then I'm going to pull back and they're going to cross the finish line themselves. So like, if I want my kids to be consistently putting away their clothes or Maybe even doing their own laundry. They're older. I'm going to start with like smaller pieces and I'm going to help them all the way up until like the finish line. And then I'm going to let them cross the finish line and I'm going to slowly pull away that support over time. So again, like breaking things down into smaller parts, helping them, doing things with them initially and then maybe doing things where they're doing it, but I'm nearby and I'm not actually doing it, but I'm sort of buddying them. And then I'm going to maybe step away and I'm not going to be doing much at all anymore. Maybe I'll remind you, but I'm not going to be buddying you. And then maybe I'm gonna instead of remind you, I'm put up a little like checklist so that I don't have to be the one remind. Like I'm working myself out of the equation, but I'm starting with it. Let's do this together. This is how we do it.
- [09:01]
Michael Chernow
So I guess the question that I've just been having is really around. The main topic that I wanted to talk with you about today is chores.
- [09:10]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Right.
- [09:11]
Michael Chernow
I feel like there's a big. And that was really something that red flagged me on this alone journey with my K is how important they are for, for development. Right. In, in kids.
- [09:24]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [09:25]
Michael Chernow
But even, even in, in situations like that, you know, when do you know? So like, let's just say like it's, it's something that you, you, you, you remind them about. No, no, no, no. Negative con. Like there's nothing negative about. It's just like, hey guys, you know what? Just fold your clothes up and put them on the chair.
- [09:43]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [09:44]
Michael Chernow
And, and you do that a number of times. Right. And they continue to just leave them. It's not something that's clicking.
- [09:52]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Right.
- [09:53]
Michael Chernow
You continue to remind them. You sit down with them and you do it with them. Maybe now you put up a list, but they continue to just not do it. When do you say, hey, we've been talking about this for six months and you have not done it. What is happening here?
- [10:11]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Well, that's a good question. I mean, I think here's what I'll say. 1. When it comes to chores, there's a lot of questions parents ask me about. One is, do I need to have my kids do chores in order for them to learn certain values or certain, you know, ways of being a part of the family? Also, do I need to teach My kids, chores to teach independence and, like, a sense of ownership over their life. So one is a question of, like, values and, like, kind of like self. Self actualization skills. Right. And independent skills. The other is, if they're not doing the thing, how do I make them do the thing? And so we're talking about two different things. They're totally connected because we're. They're all connected to the same category of chores in this case. But, like, I think to get to the answer to the second question, you got to first go to the first question. What are we trying to teach them? What is our goal? Is our goal to have kids who have very neat bedrooms who always fold their clothes? Is it a goal? Is it the goal to have kids who appreciate how much work goes into maintaining our family's home and caring for our space? Is it for them to follow a set of instructions? Is it for them to participate?
- [11:30]
Michael Chernow
I think it's a culmination of a number. For me personally, it's a culmination of a number of those things. But I think first and foremost, it has to do with responsibility. And I think responsibility is a huge part of life. And if you take no responsibility for your personal space or the communal space that you live in and just expect it just to happen, there could potentially be a default setting that you walk into your life with. That is unrealistic. Stick.
- [12:07]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [12:07]
Michael Chernow
And so for me, it's really about, like, I think the first thing now that I'm sitting here with you. And, you know, we've attempted a chores list, right? Hey, you know, once a week, Finley, you're gonna clean your lizard's tank, because your lizard's tank is always clean. But you never, ever, ever do it. But you really want the lizard. You really like the lizard. You really want the lizard. You're 10. You can do it. But it's done for you. Dakota. You guys have Nerf wars. You love the Nerf wars. The Nerf wars are super fun, but the Nerf bullets are all over the property. So once a week, go outside, pick up all the Nerf bullets, put the Nerf bullets back in where the Nerf guns are, because guess what? It's always done for you. And you never wonder why or how.
- [12:55]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yes. You know, and so, yes, we're talking about respect, and we're talking about skill building, and we're talking about this proximal development thing. So one thing. You said something earlier that struck me, and I want to go back to that really quick, because it's related to this but you were saying how, like, when your wife was out of town and you were alone with the boys, they, like, stepped up totally. They, like, felt a sense of belonging and of responsibility to, like, hey, things are a little different. I sense a change in our routine.
- [13:24]
Michael Chernow
They gave me not a single issue, not one.
- [13:28]
Dr. Sarah Bren
And they. Because they understand. I would assume this is just a guess because I don't know your kids that well, but I'm assuming that they just felt a shift in the rhythm of things, and they have a sense of belonging in this family so much. So you've clearly fostered that. They. When things feel a little bit different, they lean in. They're like, oh, I am participating today more than I normally do because mom might do a lot of the stuff, probably just out of habit and that mom's not here to do it. In the absence of me assuming mom's gonna do it, I might actually have to do a little more. Right. And this is not to say that your wife is, like, over accommodating by doing. She's just running the show. Right. That's awesome. And your kids naturally seem to sense that when more is asked of them, they trust they can step up and lean in, which tells me that they have the core capacity. Totally.
- [14:32]
Michael Chernow
I was so impressed. I mean, I asked my younger son to set the table, and the dude went, like, all out.
- [14:39]
Dr. Sarah Bren
I talk about this a lot with parents, the difference between cooperation and participation. As parents, we get kind of stuck on wanting our kids to cooperate. And of course we need them to cooperate because we need to, like, function. But we can certainly over prioritize cooperation, which is like, obedience. Like, do what I say the first time I say it. Cooperate with my wishes, follow my agenda. And that's important. We need them to be able to do that. That's, you know. But participation, seeking your child's participation in family life is a little different than cooperating. The outcome might be the same. Like, the observable behavior might be the same, but the intentionality behind it is different for the kid and for the way we solicit it. Right. If I'm asking, like, from across the room for my kid, like, hey, go set the table. Stop what you're doing and go set the table. That them cooperating with that is very different than us having a culture in our family of, like, you know what? At dinner time, as we're getting ready for dinner, we're all gonna come into the kitchen and we're all gonna help out. Not because I told you to, but because this is what we do. And so we're gonna practice this and, you know, hey, guys, everybody in. Dinner's almost started. Like, we all got our jobs to do. Like, let's all come together and just, hey, here's them plates. Why don't you go set up here? Why don't you take the silverware? I'm gonna be getting water. Like, whatever. But we are participating. And this comes down to, like, the smallest things, not even related to chores or getting k some type of output, but, like, initially at the beginning of our relationship with our kids, like, in day to day life, like, how much are we asking them to participate in something? Like, especially really, really little kids, like babies, toddlers, you know, we're dressing them, we're bathing them, we're feeding them, we're doing a lot to them. They can't do it with us. But including them in the process, slowing down, being like, oh, can you push your arm through this sleeve for me? All right. Like, making these fun, connected, intimate moments feel good, Inviting their participation in little things that sets this sort of, like, tone from the beginning. And obviously, like, if you haven't done this since birth, like, you can still start now. Like, but when you're with your kids and you are engaging in, like, caregiving activities, especially, like, things we do to them, like, I'm gonna brush your hair, you know? Okay. Instead of me giving my daughter my phone to keep her distracted while I comb all the knots out of her hair, I'm, you know, I'm like, hey, will you hold the spray bottle? I'm gonna hold, you know, I'm gonna get the spray. Will you spray the front? I'm gonna spray the back. Like, you have this comb. You get the bangs, I'm gonna do the back. Like, we're doing it together. Doesn't always go well. Like, but these little moments of caregiving to be inviting their participation. I know that doesn't sound like it's related to chores, but when we then cultivate this, this relationship based on engaging participation rather than demanding cooperation. And yes, you will still demand cooperation a lot of the time, because we just have to. But we, I think we just undervalue how these little moments of supporting participation can then relate later. I can call upon that I put some money in the bank that I can now withdraw when I need to, like, start introducing bigger tasks like chores and like, for the lizard tank, right? If as a 10 year old, totally physically a task that he'd be capable of doing. But also, does he understand what happens to the lizard or the tank when it doesn't get cleaned. Like, have you sat down and showed him? Like, maybe some of. Like, if you let it go a little longer, like, what starts to build up and how.
- [18:33]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, he knows.
- [18:34]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. Okay.
- [18:35]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he knows. And I. And quite frankly, I don't think that it's. I do believe that it is a. It's a process. Right? It's just a process. And I'm not looking for my kids to be like, that's it. I'm chore maniacs. But, like, there are things that I. You know, and another. There are things that I think making their bed is. Should be. Should be something that I focus way more on. Right. Because it frustrates me to walk into their bedroom and know that they've just completely thrown their pillows on the floor, their blankets on the floor, and it'll stay like that till the end of days unless somebody makes it for them.
- [19:16]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Right, Right.
- [19:17]
Michael Chernow
I. You know, me as an adult, I'm like, no, that's not okay. Like, hey, dudes, come upstairs. Hey. Make your bed very easy. Take the blanket. Put it here. Put your pillow right here. It's, like, super simple. We can do this every day, you know?
- [19:33]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yes.
- [19:33]
Michael Chernow
And. And I think that that's, like, a really great one to start with. The kids are not old enough to mow the lawn and to, you know, clean the bathroom. But, like, I just think that there. That there is a certain time within a child's life that introducing these things are super important. And the other question that I have is because I really do like the. The. The. The delineation between, like, participation and, like, requirement. Right. Like, I really do. Like, I like that idea of the participation thing, but I think it's hard to do that outside of, like, family things. Right. Like, getting around the table to make dinner or dinner time is starting can totally be like, all right, I'm gonna grab the silverware. You go grab the placemats.
- [20:28]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Right.
- [20:29]
Michael Chernow
Finn, you go grab the napkins. And, hey, while you're at it, why don't you go grab the, you know, some. Some water glasses? You know? Like, that makes total sense, getting them into that thing.
- [20:38]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Cause you're also synced up. You're all doing it at the same time.
- [20:40]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [20:41]
Dr. Sarah Bren
And that could be something that might also help with chores. And I don't know if you guys have tried this, but, like, if, you know, there are. If we're holding. Just, like, we're scaffolding skill building, we're also scaffolding time and, like, organizational Skills. Right. So is there a time in the mornings when we go make the beds? Like, is there space that we're holding for these tasks, or are we just expecting them to like, spontaneously figure that part out? Right. Sometimes if we create the container for the chore, it's a lot easier for them to engage in the expected behavior in that frame.
- [21:22]
Michael Chernow
What do you like how kids that just don't have to do chores. Is there a significant difference between kids that are given chores and kids that just don't ever have to do chores?
- [21:36]
Dr. Sarah Bren
I mean, there is. It's hard to say definitively, you know, because we don't have these, like, longitudinal, clean studies of like, the kids who did and the kids who didn't for life. Right. But there definitely have been studies that look at giving children age appropriate chores, and it does show that it helps build autonomy, self esteem, sense of belonging. It's executive functioning skills like planning, organizing, time management. Just. It's good. But just like I say all the time, it depends how you do something is more important than what you do. Right. Demanding that kids do chores for the sake of doing chores probably isn't gonna build that same set of skills as maybe picking one or two things that are really within reach. It's not about them being, you know, a plus kids that pull their weight as much as it is about, like, I'm cherry picking a couple behaviors that I think are gonna help foster belonging, responsibility, understanding how our family actually pulling back the curtain to show there's a lot of work that goes into, like, managing this home. And I want you to appreciate that so you can have some respect for the amount of it.
- [22:55]
Michael Chernow
So I love that idea because I think that that's really powerful. Right. To sit down with the kids and. Right. Guys, here's the deal. Chores don't sound like fun. Right? No one. No one. No one likes the word chore. It's just not like a. Yeah, it's not like a sounds.
- [23:09]
Dr. Sarah Bren
So it's. So it's such a chore.
- [23:11]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. I wish that. I wish that there was a better word for it that we didn't know about. Right. However, chores are a real thing. Mom and dad do a lot of chores all day long. They follow a long list of things that need to get done in the house to make sure everybody's happy and healthy and, you know, feels good. And we don't live in a. In a pigsty. We want to include you guys in this chore process. Like, we think we. We believe that you two are old enough now. To join in this process that is absolutely necessary for us to live the life that we live. And we think you guys are mature enough. You've shown us that you are mature enough to participate in this journey.
- [23:50]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. You're ready for this responsibility.
- [23:54]
Michael Chernow
Give them, like, motivate them that way potentially.
- [23:57]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. And also, like, think about it this way. Do you think your job is a ch. I think you like your job, right?
- [24:03]
Michael Chernow
Oh, I love my job.
- [24:03]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. Is it a chore or is it a job?
- [24:07]
Michael Chernow
I don't know. I don't know.
- [24:08]
Dr. Sarah Bren
There might be tasks inside of it that are chore, like, but, like, no, it's a job. It's a job.
- [24:12]
Michael Chernow
It's like a chore.
- [24:13]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Even that difference between calling something a chore and calling something a job.
- [24:16]
Michael Chernow
Give you guys some jobs.
- [24:17]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [24:18]
Michael Chernow
Oh, I like that.
- [24:18]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Right. Like, we talked about this last time when we were talking about, like, helping your kids understand, like, what you do. Right. So that they can hold in mind this, like, concretize some of it. But kids are so in awe of the fact that, like, they want to be like us. Right. They love their parents and they want to emulate them. Even if in moments, they, like, don't act like it. But you have a job, they respect that. They probably idealize that to some degree. They don't get to have jobs. That's for grownups. But I don't know. There's something a little bit more exciting about being like, this is my job, I'm gonna get. And again, I don't actually think there's some research on this too, of, like, paying kids to do chores.
- [25:00]
Michael Chernow
That's what I wanted to talk about next.
- [25:01]
Dr. Sarah Bren
I think that that has been shown to somewhat backfire because then it starts to, like, sort of SAP the potential intrinsic motivation. Right. Like, if I learn just to do this for the reward versus doing it to be part of this family, like, the sense of belonging versus I'm doing it for the exchange. It's not. I don't want it to be fully transactional.
- [25:23]
Michael Chernow
So allowance is not something that I wanted to talk about. Allow.
- [25:27]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Michael Chernow
So let's finish this. Yes.
- [25:30]
Dr. Sarah Bren
I'll come back to that. Circle back because I got thoughts on allowance, too. I'm still figuring this out too. My kids are, like, a little younger than yours, but more or less the same range, and I want them to do chores. I also am cool teaching them about money and want them to have money to learn with, so I'm down for giving them allowance. I don't always think it's best to tie those things together. I do think though, you can incentivize kids with rewards. There's ways to do rewards and ways that I think aren't that helpful. But so for chores, I think again, getting back to this core of like, what's my ultimate goal? If my ultimate goal is to teach them a sense of responsibility and elicit a sense of belonging to activate that sense of responsibility, can I make it something that they can do and also maybe are interested in doing? Like I will ask, maybe ask them like to like just continuing the conversation. You've already just sort of like teed up of like, this is how we're going to give you guys some jobs. You're ready for this. This is part of being contributors and big part of our family, right? What's one or two things you would like to do? What job would you like to take over? And obviously if.
- [26:37]
Michael Chernow
Would you, would you, would you, would you suggest coming to that meeting with a list of jobs?
- [26:42]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Maybe like a pre selected menu.
- [26:44]
Michael Chernow
Pre selected menu that they choose from.
- [26:46]
Dr. Sarah Bren
So we talked about this one.
- [26:47]
Michael Chernow
Like, I just want to say one thing. I think it's so awesome to replace chores with jobs. I think that if any parent listens, is listening right now, I think that little shift could make a big difference. Replacing the word chore with jobs. Because jobs are for adults and they don't feel like they can have jobs.
- [27:07]
Dr. Sarah Bren
They elicit that same level of leaning in that happened when you're, when you solo parented for the last nine days, right. Your kids leaned in, they took some responsibility because they felt, oh, not only do I sense a need to step up, but I believe that I can, I have something to contribute and it was appreciated, which is really reinforcing. Right? So let's take that same dynamic and bring it to chores, right? What would you like to do? To contribute? What job would you like to have? Because again, I don't think what the tour is actually matters all that much. It's the sense of contributing, participating, and if they have a sense of ownership over it, this is my job, way better. And so if they can pick it again, maybe from a pre selected menu because you might have some things you would really like some help with and you want to give them a choice, but a choice that works for you too, right? They might just say I want my job to be coloring. Like, well that's fun. That's fun. And also I need some, I need some output from you. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a selection Maybe. Why don't you pick from these things? And if they might be uninterested in certain chores or jobs, I wouldn't assume that it's because they don't like it. It might be that they think they can't do it. And so also saying, like, I'm gonna help you. We're gonna help you. The first couple weeks of these jobs, I'm gonna be doing it right alongside of you to help you, like, figure it out. And as soon as you feel like, I got this, I'll back away. Now your presence is gonna be almost like a sign that they're not mature enough. And they're gonna be pretty quick to be like, all right, I got this. You know? I know. I do it. Like, you don't need to help me anymore. I got this. Right? So we're also helping activate their sense of independence, because we're not saying, you do it, and then if you fail at doing it, I'm gonna come in and, like, get in there. It's more like, I'm gonna be with you until you're ready for me to step away, and then they're gonna be more. More inclined to, like, show you they can do it.
- [29:16]
Michael Chernow
One last thing I want to talk about in regards to this before we get into paying your kids.
- [29:21]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [29:22]
Michael Chernow
Is what if mom and dad don't see totally eye to eye on these things? Like, you know, I mean, I'll just use myself as an example. Our situation. Our younger son, for whatever reason, has still been struggling to fully go to the bathroom by himself. Like, he just wants one of us to just check. To just check, right? Like, he's, like, super self conscious about it. He's like, I just want you to check one time. And in my mind, I. I feel like I want to be like, hey, dude, you got this. And I do. I'm like, you got this. You got it. There's got to be a time where you wean off the check, right? Like, he's got to figure out how to feel confidence that he's wiped enough. I'm like, dude, when he says, hey, can you check? I'm like, hey, was there any poop on the last white? And he's like, no. And I'm like, you're good. You're good. He's like, no, I'm not. I pro. I know, dad. I know. It's got. There's some poop there.
- [30:37]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. You know, got some anxiety.
- [30:38]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, there's anxiety around it. There's anxiety around it. So, like, what would be and once I'll use that example. Another one is brushing their teeth. Sometimes, you know, I will walk in and my wife is down there brushing their teeth, and I want to be like, hey, brush their teeth. They know how to brush their teeth.
- [31:01]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [31:02]
Michael Chernow
Like, what would be. Any suggestions there?
- [31:05]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yes, a couple. We're gonna feel like a tangent, but it's. It's not. So first thing, the anxiety piece. If you are. If a kid is seeking some type of reassurance, some type of, like, will you check this for me or tell me that this is gonna happen or you're definitely gonna do this. Right, right, right, right. These sort of, like reassurance seeking behaviors, they're probably having some part of them that's a little uncomfortable sitting in uncertainty. The worry that I missed it or the worry that there's something could still be there and I didn't get it all. Instead of focusing on the focus of that worry, like, check the poop. Right? Check, check, check. And being like, no, there's no poop there. Like, you're talking to the worry part of their brain instead of the part of their brain that's just feeling uncomfortable with uncertainty. And so really it's not about the poop, which is a great meme now, I want to use that for everything. But it's not about the poop. It's about sitting with uncertainty. So I would speak to that. Be like, hey, bud, I think it's really hard to not know for sure, and that is okay to feel that way, like, you can handle that feeling. So I'm not going to check right now, and you're going to feel unsure and that's okay. And he might not like that. And you actually might want to prep him to say, hey, you know what? I've noticed that every time I check, it doesn't make you feel any less worried about there being pooped the next time. And so really I'm realizing me checking isn't helping you feel as worried about this. And so I'm going to do something a little bit differently next time you ask me, I'm not going to check. And you're going to feel a little uncertain. And that's okay. That's a safe feeling. It will come and it will go. And then when he asks you to check, you just say like, oh, this is that thing we talked about. You know, I think it's just really hard to not know. And you can handle this feeling and you could distract him. You can go do something else you could do. You could. He might have a meltdown.
- [33:11]
Michael Chernow
And what if he. Yeah, what if he. And if they. If he's like, no, check.
- [33:14]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. Be like, I get it. It's really hard. You can handle it not having poop, right? You can handle this feeling of not.
- [33:25]
Michael Chernow
Of not knowing.
- [33:27]
Dr. Sarah Bren
It's so hard when you're not 100% sure nothing bad is going to happen if you're wrong. And this feeling of unsure, like this discomfort with it, it will, it will eventually go away. So this is pulled. I mean I don't take credit for this model. This is pulled from a lot of different ways you can therapies that use this. But there's a therapy called Space Supportive Parenting for anxious childhood emotions. Some mouthful, but it was developed at the Yale Child Study center and it uses this sort of framework for helping parents sort of reduce their accommodations to anxiety like rituals that kids have. So like reassurance seeking would be something that a kid might engage a parent in to turn off that feeling of anxiety.
- [34:19]
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- [35:43]
Michael Chernow
Back to the pod. So I wanna talk about one other thing now that we're on this, because I think it's. And I mean, I love having you on the show. It is very selfish, though, because I get to talk to you about all the things that are in our life that I'm sure a lot of parents resonate with. So it's good to be able to just have this. So one of our sons has severe separation anxiety. He does not. Like when there is not at least one of us in eye or earshot. And it started about three, two and a half years ago.
- [36:18]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Is this the younger one that's older. Older. Okay, older.
- [36:21]
Michael Chernow
And he. Dakota. Really the only anxiety we see, or I notice from Dakota is in the bathroom. That's the only piece of his life that he really does show signs of. His. Finn is a little bit more anxious and specifically around one of us being outside of the school environment. He wants one of us with him. If they are, you know, like, if they're inside the house and they are drawing or playing or maybe they're watching a movie. And I'm like, hey, guys, I'm just going to go outside to the car to just grab some stuff out of the car. Finley wants to come out to the car with me. So that's. That's. That's like a pretty significant anxiety response. Right. Like, he feels there's something.
- [37:08]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Right.
- [37:09]
Michael Chernow
So can I apply this in a very similar, like this space thing to that?
- [37:13]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yes, but the thing with space specifically is that it reduces parent accommodations. So if he's following you, that's a child behavior, whereas I, checking your poop, is a parent behavior.
- [37:24]
Michael Chernow
Okay.
- [37:25]
Dr. Sarah Bren
So I can reduce my behaviors because I have control over what I do or don't do. I'm not necessarily going to focus my attention on trying to get my child to do or not do something, because it's just going to be really futile and frustrating for everybody. But chances are, there are other ways that Finley separation anxiety can solicit behaviors from you or other people in his environment to help turn off that feeling. Like, hit the. I call it when we accommodate a child's anxious, like, anxious behaviors. Like, usually it's, I want you to do something for me to turn this feeling off, or I want you to not do something so that this feeling goes away. And so when we do that, we're not actually turning off the anxiety response. We're hitting, like, the snooze button. We're just giving them this temporary sense of relief from this distressing anxiety. But the problem is it creates this dependency on us to hit the snooze button. We're not dismantling the alarm. We're not giving them the tools to turn off the alarm. We're just delaying it right till the next worry thought comes in and they get another wave of anxiety. And then they say, uh, don't go anywhere. And so the idea is we slowly and sort of in space, it's like a very targeted, like, I'll have parents like map out all of the accommodations that they are doing to help turn off that anxiety alarm button. And kind of we pick out like one at a time. Usually we do like three, maybe over the course of a treatment. But the goal isn't to like reduce all accommodations, but it's to pull specific targeted ones that have the biggest impact, that allow a child to ultimately feel anxious in a safe and supported way. Because we're not doing the thing they're expecting us to do that turns it off for them. And then the feeling does naturally dissipate over time. And like, well, just in general, like, if you feel anxious, you don't feel anxious forever. You, it comes, and eventually your body like resets and regulates and the feeling goes away. And so getting to that other side where that anxiety dissipates and then helping that child look back and be like, see, I didn't do that thing. You felt anxious.
- [40:02]
Michael Chernow
And then, so give them like a little reminder.
- [40:05]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [40:05]
Michael Chernow
Like, hey, like, remember we didn't do that the last time.
- [40:08]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. Or even after not doing it, even if they have a full blown meltdown right later, once they've calmed down, be like, you know what you really handled? I didn't do the thing you thought had to happen. And you had a really hard time tolerating that. But the feeling still went away. Like, here we are. You're not anxious right now. That feeling is not a permanent feeling. That's really what we're trying to teach the kid and their nervous system is that these feelings come and go. And because when you're treating anxiety, you're not trying to necessarily reduce anxiety, you're trying to increase tolerance for anxiety. And so what we're doing in these efforts to pull back some accommodations and allow them to experience this feeling that they think they can't handle and get to the other side of it and it goes back to homeostasis. They chill back out eventually is to help them realize like, oh, feeling anxious is not going to kill me. I think it is in the moment, but I can survive it. I can handle this feeling. My tolerance for anxiety is going to grow a little Bit more. And maybe it's only in this one context, which is why we do it in a couple different places until it starts to be like, oh, I mean.
- [41:23]
Michael Chernow
I really understand the accommodating piece. Like, how does this play out when they don't want us to do something?
- [41:31]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Right. So that. So, like, you. Like, they don't want you to leave.
- [41:35]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [41:35]
Dr. Sarah Bren
And you have to leave.
- [41:36]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. Or like, it's like, hey, after school today, you know, so and so's mom or dad is going to pick you up and you guys are going to go play over at so and so's house. And he. Or he would be like, I don't want to do that. Where are you going to be? I want you there. I don't feel comfortable without you there. Like, how do you break away from that? Like, what would be a good.
- [41:55]
Dr. Sarah Bren
So you always show up at the play date, then?
- [41:58]
Michael Chernow
My wife would.
- [41:59]
Dr. Sarah Bren
So, yeah. So that's the action, Right. I come to your play dates no matter what, and I'm actually sort of communicating to you. Not on purpose. I'm probably not. Not. I'm not even aware of it. But, like, me not being here is dangerous, so I am going to be here. It's like, I always give this example of, like, when a kid is scared of the dark and they want you to check under the bed for the monsters, and we will suddenly be like, I'm gonna check under the bed to show you there's no monsters there. If you're checking under the bed, you're.
- [42:30]
Michael Chernow
Saying there's a monster there.
- [42:31]
Dr. Sarah Bren
You're saying there could be a monster there, and it unintentionally reinforces the fear. Right. My parents have to rescue me from this feeling because it must be actually as dangerous as it feels. And so. But it doesn't mean you just cold turkey stop going to their playdates, because that's maybe too big of a stretch, right? It might be. I'm gonna come to your play date, and then I'm gonna go and I'm gonna get a coffee and I'm gonna come back. So I'm going to be gone for 15 minutes of your playdate or then I'm going to be. I'm going to be across the street and then I'm going to come pick you up, or I'm going to be at home and then I'm going to pick you up. So you're. You're titrating it. You know, you're working. You're working closer to where they're at and what Their zone of tolerance is their window of tolerance. Right. And that. And we're stretching it and stretching it and stretching it, allowing them to feel a little bit of anxiety and then surviving it. And then we debrief, and we say, that was hard, and you handled it.
- [43:33]
Michael Chernow
That's the other way. The reinforcement is important to just remind them that, hey, like that. You did that.
- [43:40]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. It's a big part of that. You felt that because you got to rewrite. We're stretching. And then we also have to rewrite the blueprint.
- [43:47]
Michael Chernow
Because this one. This one for us is specifically for me. Not as much for my wife, but for me, it is really, like, glaring that Finn really does not want to be left in any way, shape, or form. And it wasn't always that way. There was one incident that happened two and a half years ago where we were at a festival at their school, and he was playing with his friends. I was with his younger brother. His younger brother said, dad, I gotta go to the bathroom. I went to the bathroom, and he was with all his friends. I told Erica, the other parent, I said, hey, we're gonna. I'm taking Dakota to the bathroom in the farm store. Went to the bathroom, Dakota. He couldn't see us and had a shit fit and thought that we had left him. And from that day forward, it's been that way.
- [44:39]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. So his body is holding on to that.
- [44:41]
Michael Chernow
How do we get rid of that?
- [44:42]
Dr. Sarah Bren
There's different ways. I mean, I think that the Space Protocol is, like, a helpful way of thinking about anxiety in general, but this is. That's not. This space is going to help build his tolerance for anxiety, but the source of his anxiety also needs to get a little bit released. Right. And so, I mean, that might actually look like. I mean, I'm assuming you've talked to him about that, you know. Yeah.
- [45:07]
Michael Chernow
And it's in a. And it's a festival every year called Mayday. It's coming up in a couple of weeks, in a month. And so he gets anxious, always thinking about Mayday. Now he's like, mayday's coming. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, dad. Like, I'm like, buddy. I mean, I don't. I want to know the right thing to say.
- [45:23]
Dr. Sarah Bren
So all the other places it's manifesting in, we could talk about using some of these strategies of building up his tolerance, but for the May Day specifically, this is not a learned anxiety response as much as it is. But, like, it's. This is kind of like a trauma. It's this. Exactly. So this is. I think we need to help his body reset and feel. What's getting activated for him is his, you know, panic system. Like, I'm gonna lose somebody. Yeah. We have these, like, core affective channels in our. Deep in our brain. Right. And one of them is panic grief. Right. And if that gets activated, I'm going to have all these higher level emotional responses. But this core sort of fundamental primitive neurological system is getting lit up and it's out of whack. He isn't able to bring it down to homeostasis easily because there's something stuck there. This memory of being trauma. It's legit trauma, he thought. And his body didn't know the difference that you were in the bathroom and his. The panic system got lit up and it's still like on, I think. Yeah. So that would be where I'd focus. The work is like maybe leading up to this mayday to be like, for mayday. Like, we're gonna do something different this time. Right. I'm gonna give you maybe a string or something to hold on to. I got the other end of that string. We're gonna be. And I don't, like, not quite literally, because I don't think you can walk around a music festival with holding onto a string with your kid. Right. You're not gonna put him on a leash. But something symbolic, right, that links you to. That he can hold, that you can hold. Or even maybe like, I don't know, like a buzzer, Like a little thing. He could click it. You can click it. I'm not. I mean, I'm getting kind of like making ideas up as I go. But what I'm. The thing. I'm trying to figure out how to do walkie talkie maybe. And again, like, this, you could argue is not accommodating the anxiety. And I would say yes, if it's getting manifest in all these other places. But in this particular place, which is like the source of this, like, the panic button is like, this is where it got stuck.
- [47:49]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [47:49]
Dr. Sarah Bren
I think he needs to know and feel in his body like, he's not gonna lose you at this concert. Like, I'm here. So he can kind of like release that. Release that, like reset that. That channel in his brain that's firing now. Is that gonna magically make him never have separation anxiety? I don't. Not necessarily. But, like, it could help.
- [48:15]
Michael Chernow
I would love to help him because I know he struggles with this kind of anxiety around this. And I know it started there.
- [48:21]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [48:22]
Michael Chernow
I'm almost 100% positive. I mean, I can't say 100% for certain, but prior to that day, he had no problem, like, running around with his friends, you know, and. And he still does that. I mean, trust me. Like, I mean, he's in aftercare. I mean, they do things, but it's just, you know, I didn't think to talk about this one with you today. I would guarantee that there's a long list of parents that listen to this podcast that also have kids that. That have anxiety around specific things.
- [48:52]
Dr. Sarah Bren
And it's not always. I mean, I know because I get a lot of work with a lot of kids who have separation anxiety. And it isn't always easy to pinpoint to, like, where did it start? Like, it's not always. Some kids just naturally temperamentally nervous system sensitivities, they just, they. They're. They're holding much tighter to their secure attachment figure, and it's more distressing for them to tolerate the separation. And it's not like there was a trauma or a single thing I can put my finger on. And we still do need to build that tolerance for anxiety. But, like, again, I think some types of anxiety are not the same. Like, I'm afraid of something like monster under the bed, monster in the bed. Or like, uncertainty of, like, whether or not I got, you know, I'm gonna, you know, poop on my butt and someone's gonna make fun of me and it's. Or I'm gonna be uncomfortable. Right. Those are more like. That's more anxiety, like fear.
- [49:43]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [49:43]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Something bad's gonna happen. The panic and grief system is sort of different than our fear system. Panic and grief is way deeper connected to our attachment system. Right. And so it's. I'm. I tend to veer a little more on the side. On. On the side of, like, I don't really training out the accommodations is less important to me with separation anxiety because at the core, I need to help build that sense of safety and connection even in the absence of my primary attachment figures presence. And so that's like a different system. I'm actually working on that. If I can reset that, I would expect to see the extra separation anxiety go down. Even if I wasn't working on reducing accommodations to build up that.
- [50:31]
Michael Chernow
I think. I think trying to find like, a little mini walkie talkie vibe could be an interesting approach to that. Because. Because I was thinking, oh, you know, maybe I can just get like, little. Little stones that, like, he can carry. I can carry same stones. Like, hey, dude, like, we're connected to this. I'm not gonna go anywhere, and I want you to know that. But, like, I got this in my pocket. You got that in your pocket? Like, just know we're holding on to the same rocks here.
- [50:54]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [50:54]
Michael Chernow
You know, but I. I do think that the walkie talkie, like, specifically, if I could find, like, one of those little ones, I think that could be, like, something that he wouldn't be, like, necessarily embarrassed about, because I know he gets a little embarrassed about this.
- [51:08]
Dr. Sarah Bren
And I'd link it back, though. I would say, you know, that one time that we went to this concert, and you. When I went to the bathroom with Dakota and you couldn't find me, like, it was really scary. Like, you felt that, and I. I wonder if you still feel that sometimes.
- [51:25]
Michael Chernow
Oh, no, he. He's very upfront about it. He's like, no, dad, when you went to the bathroom with Dakota at May Day, that scared me and always scares me. He's very clear.
- [51:36]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. Okay, good. So that's great. You could say, like, you could even. Maybe even say, like, I think that that. That one time scared you so much that it kind of turned your scared light switch on, and it hasn't turned off yet. And so you're scared light switch is gonna turn on and off and on and off and on and off. But we have to make sure that we actually turn that one day off.
- [51:59]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [52:00]
Dr. Sarah Bren
I'm here. You are safe. We could even, like, play. Honestly, it sounds so silly. He's 10. Right. But I would play hide and seek with him. Like, fun games. Not. Not in this conversation, but, like, you know, playing with. I can't find you. I found you. I can't find you. I found you. In play. We have this, like, beautiful access to reset some of these systems without having to have, like, these serious conversations, which sometimes kids can do and sometimes they can't. And so the body gets the benefit of the play of, I. I can't find you. I found you. Without having to go to that intellectual space, I would just start doing more things with him where, like, you are playing with the absence and the reuniting and where he does find you. And, like, then you could connect the dots explicitly.
- [53:00]
Michael Chernow
I love that. I feel like that's such a great plan because it's coming up here any day. Yeah. All right. And the last thing I want to talk about is rewarding allowance, you know?
- [53:13]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Michael Chernow
Like, can you give allowance without, like, a. A structure? Like, can you give allowance without a list of.
- [53:22]
Dr. Sarah Bren
You have to earn Checks? I believe so. And again, I'm not a financial burden.
- [53:28]
Michael Chernow
What would the allowance be?
- [53:29]
Dr. Sarah Bren
I don't know. That's such a hard one. Like, I. Because I genuine, like, full disclosure, I have not figured this out for my own kids. Right. Like, I just don't know. I'm like, I want to give them allowance, and then I just forget.
- [53:41]
Michael Chernow
Honestly, they've been asking for allowance.
- [53:43]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. And also, I don't know if you struggle with this, but, like, I don't ever have cash on hand. I'm like, I. I would. I'm like, I don't want to give them like a. There's like these fake. Not fake, like real, like digital bank account things for kids. But then it's like, they need. I need this to be analog because I want them to understand my goal behind giving an allowance is to help teach them some financial literacy. And also a sense of like, where does. Where do things come from? They come from purchasing them. Right. Like, and understand, like, again, to tie it back to having appreciation for where things come from and how to participate in our family, like, and be a contributor. Like, not financially, but to understand and appreciate what goes into the things we have. Right. Gratitude, all that stuff. That's my goal. So I'm trying to figure out. I want it to be analog because I want it to be tangible. Because my kids are almost six and seven and a half, and so they're still too young, I think, to really have a good grasp on these digital concepts. So I want it to be analog. But I never have dollars in my house, so that's hard. So it's like. Also requires some planning and time management and organization on my part, which is where it always falls apart.
- [54:55]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. Like taking out a hundred bucks in singles and just having it in their closet.
- [54:59]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yes, exactly. Something like that. And then I don't know, like, giving them maybe. Maybe do it by age. Cause it's not, you know, but like, let's say whatever. I'm gonna give you, like $10 a month, and three are gonna go into donation, and three are gonna go into savings, and four are gonna go into whatever you want to do now. Right. Something that's for you. And I'm not gonna, like, give you grief about what you wanna spend it on. Right? So if we go to the. To CVS and you're like, I want this piece of junk that you're not gonna get a peep from me on. Don't waste your money on that. That you know that pot is for you to make mistakes with to regret purchases with. If it breaks in five minutes, be like buyer's remorse. Yeah, great, great. Low stakes way to teach them that stuff. And for me, like that's enough. I don't think it needs to be tied to did you earn? Did you do X, Y and Z? Because then I don't want to undermine what we were talking about earlier of like we do chores because we. Or jobs because I want to encourage participation and I want you to have a sense of belonging and ownership, not because I'm paying you. Some people could argue that a job is a job because you get compensated, but I think we're getting too into the semantics then.
- [56:30]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, I mean, I think probably at this age for most parents, you know, this conversation begins to take shape, right? Like between 7 and 12 years old, your kids are, you want to teach them ethic, right? I mean, I do, I want to teach my kids ethic. And for me, when I, you know, growing up, it was like, you know, I had no choice but to work if I wanted to buy the Jordans, like that was that. Right? It was like. And my parents didn't really teach me that, but I really wanted the Jordans. So I started dog walking when I was 10, 11. I grew up in New York City, so Jordans were everywhere. And like my parents weren't buying them for me. And so my kids don't necessarily have that because they're, we live in the countryside and it's like, you know, nobody really cares about style like they did in New York City where I was coming up. But I do just think that there is a, like, there is a bit of a dilemma, right? And like, do you reward your kids for doing something or not? And if you do, when is the right time? When is the wrong time?
- [57:41]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Well, I also think we have to work with our kids brains, not against them. We do work best with reward systems because it's reinforcing. But I think where people sometimes fall short is they, they tie a reward to something that's not, it's not small enough, it's not targeted enough and it's not within reach reliably for the kid. Right. A lot of times people will like do reward charts for like being nice or following the rules, which is super vague. And you know, like, think of it like, what was it? Smart goals. Like, same idea. You need it to be specific. Like what it needs to be a task that a child can reliably do, not one that requires them to be, you know, they can only do it when they're regulated but they can't do it when they're dysregulated. So like behavioral stuff. This comes up a lot with behavioral stuff. More than it does like chores. Right. Chores I actually think is more is less of an issue for rewarding. But when we're like trying to get a kid to like engage in a particular behavior that they're struggling with, usually because like, maybe they get really angry and then they hit or they, you know, say stuff they're not, that's hurtful. And so we're trying to curb that by giving them a reward chart for good behavior Mistake. Yeah. And so it's like the problem is when the kid is regulated and they can do the behavior, they get rewarded, that's fine. But when the kid is dysregulated, they can't do it. And then they get. The absence of a reward can feel like a punishment. But the problem is they don't reliably feel in control over whether or not they're gonna get rewarded or punished accidentally. It's just a flaw in the system because it's kind of like an intermittent negative reward system. Sometimes I can control it and sometimes I can't control it. And so I actually don't learn a lot of useful stuff from this. I just feel like rewards are kind of unpredictable in this case. Whereas if it's a skill that we're trying to practice, a habit or a skill like putting your laundry away, that's actually a time when I would use maybe a sticker chart or a rewards chart, but it's like you get it for putting your laundry away. And also I'm gonna do it for like two weeks max because the novelty wears off real fast. And so I'm using it as like a kickstart to build a habit. Not like changing a regulation based behavior is a much bigger task and requires a different approach. And so I think people sometimes get off track when they use rewards for things that are regulation based. But when we're talking about building skills, I don't think there's a problem with a rewards chart. I think you could use allowance as one of those things. It's just really hard to manage. And again, like the novelty of it, we're relying on this. We want this to be a long term thing. Right. If I just want to teach my kids to put their laundry away, that's a short term skill in terms of like, how long do we have to practice this before it becomes habit? But if I want to have an allowance system and a chore system, those are long term things. And so these short term quick hit rewards tend not to work as well. So I, I just, you can do it. You can totally tie chores or family jobs to an allowance. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just think it becomes unwieldy and then we're just more likely to abandon it. And so I would say if you want to give them allowance, do the allowance thing. What's your goal? Figure it out and see how to nurture those financial literacy. Right.
- [61:32]
Michael Chernow
Make that the thing.
- [61:33]
Dr. Sarah Bren
And then if you want to teach them how to participate in family life, create chores. And I also think it can be helpful maybe in the beginning to create a short term rewards chart, like a sticker chart. And at the end of the week if we got, you know, all the stars, we can like go get some ice cream or something. But again, short term. So a good rewards chart in my opinion is attached to a very specific behavior that is in the child's control. The majority of the time is again in that zone of proximal development. They can actually do it. And then it's something that I want that I just want them to practice. I want to kick start the practicing of a habit. And it's like super specific.
- [62:17]
Michael Chernow
Put the toilet seat down and flush the toilet.
- [62:19]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yes, just that. Get in. You just want to, you're just trying to like quick jump start the rewiring process of the habit. And again like two weeks is probably the max lifespan unless you have. Some kids love star charts and they get really like into them and can like really sustain them for long periods of time. Most kids and most adults forget about them after two weeks, which is totally fine. Totally fine. Just know that that's the plan. Wow.
- [62:47]
Michael Chernow
We covered a lot. Super duper lot. I, I, I mean it's selfishly awesome to have you on the show but you know, like, as we've seen in the past, your episodes on our show do super well. People really love them. I don't know if there's enough of this conversation happening outside of a one on one private session. You know what I mean? I think parents today do walk around with a lot of questions and like most things in life, I think most people just wing it and that's okay. Right. But like giving a little insight from a real expert professional I think is super fun and super valuable.
- [63:34]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Thank you.
- [63:35]
Michael Chernow
So I really appreciate you coming on. Where can people follow along or where can people connect with you if they'd like to meet with you?
- [63:42]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yeah. So I have a Podcast, it's called Securely Attached and we talk about all this stuff. Parenting, child development, attachment science. And that's one of the easiest places to get this info. I also have a website, drsarabren.com and that's my handle on Instagram too. And then I have a group practice in Pelham, New York. So if you are in New York state, we do family therapy, parenting therapy, child and adolescent therapy, all sorts of things for the family. And then if you're out of New York state, we do parent coaching. So you can go to upshirebrand.com for any information on that.
- [64:29]
Michael Chernow
Lots of ways to get ahold of you.
- [64:31]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Yes.
- [64:31]
Michael Chernow
Doc, you're awesome.
- [64:33]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Thank you.
- [64:34]
Michael Chernow
Once again, smashed it. Boom. That was Dr. Sarah Bren's third time on the show. There's not been a single human that has been on the Creatures that have it podcast three times.
- [64:46]
Dr. Sarah Bren
Except for you.
- [64:47]
Michael Chernow
Except for me, I would be the only one. I'm here every time. But so much, so much to chew on in that episode. You know, I really do. There's. I really wanted to talk about chores and I'm so happy that I'm never gonna say the word chores with my child again, with my children again. I'm going to use the word jobs. Maybe I would even start using habit because I think habit could be a cool thing. They know that dad's work is called is dad' job as creatures of habit. It might be a really interesting way to start talking about habit with them around these little jobs like, you know, filling the dog's water, things like that, feeding the, you know, the lizard. Anyways, every opportunity I get to learn about better parenting is an opportunity for me to sort of rewrite my upbringing and how I was raised and how that was a tough time and to really, really put some emphasis and a focus on doing my absolute best to create an experience for my children and my family that is just a little bit better. It's just a little bit better and that's exciting for me. And I'm sure you got a lot of value of this. Sorry. If you were not a parent or are not a parent, chances are you did not listen to this whole episode. Or maybe you are thinking about being a parent and this was super exciting, super interesting for you. Regardless, I appreciate you guys. I really, really appreciate you tuning in. And a five star rating and a review would be incredible. But that's not the rent I ask you to pay to listen to the podcast. If you found this interesting, share it with your friends. That is the rent I ask you to pay. Really share this podcast with someone that you think would appreciate it. And it's so easy to share. Just tap those three buttons in the corner, hit copy, link, go into your text messages, paste that link, and send it to a couple of friends. And that would mean the world. That would mean the world to me. The creatures have a podcast. We're really trying to grow this thing. So, again, I love you guys. I appreciate you tuning into. This is super duper awesome of you. Until the next one, peace.