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Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
Redefining Rich: Friendship, Purpose, and Life’s Real Rewards with Pathos | Kreatures of Habit Podcast
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- [00:00]
Michael Chernow
It's not all about the bank account. Judge your friends on what they do when the camera's off. Judge your friends on how many real people they communicate with on a regular basis. That is what richness in life, I'm learning now, is about.
- [00:17]
Ryan
And I think it's really important to define friendship because we're sitting here talking friendship, which is beautiful. It's like, but how do you know a real friend? A friend is someone who's committed to growing with you. There's people in our lives, especially in the past, that would much rather see us be pulled back down to who we used to be than who we can become.
- [00:36]
Flo
What that's allowed all of us to do is to redefine what it means to be rich. Being rich doesn't just mean, like, oh, it's like, about the money or the car. It's. It's about who you get to spend your time with. And I think that's what we've all gotten to discover through pathos.
- [00:53]
Ryan
Most people, I think, are settling for a life less than what they were created for because it's easier. But when you choose bravery and courage, that opens your entire world up, and it gives you stuff that you really didn't know you needed, like brotherhood, like, connection.
- [01:09]
Flo
Like, wow.
- [01:10]
Ryan
I'm actually supported by people who I've never really had a long relationship with, but we're in the same energy, we're in the same mission of becoming.
- [01:19]
Michael Chernow
If I'm not spending as much time with the people I love most in my life, I'm not winning. An entrepreneur straight out of New York City. Michael Chernow. What's cracking. A good place to start would be, is. Is community and how you guys have created this thing. You know, I think in today's day, because of those things, the cell phone community is really just like a lost art, you know? And so many men. I mean, it's November. It's Men's Mental Health Month, right? Like, you know, you kind of hear about it, like, oh, men are lonely. And then, like, sometimes you're like, ah, whatever. Like, cry me a freaking river, you know? But the fact is, it's true. It's true. Like, a lot of men outside of college or outside of those early 20 years where, like, you're kind of forced into community, are lost and lonely, you know, even married men, right? Like, and I could speak for myself here, like, without intentionally creating community, like, meaning, like, inviting men over to my house to hang out or, like, actively looking for a group of men that are getting together once A week or twice a week, you work your ass off. You come home from work, you hang with your wife and your kids, you go to sleep, you work your ass off, you come on the weekends, you hang with your wife and kids. And, like, where is the time to, like, be with other men and, like, talk about things that other men. That men need to talk about? Because it's important. It's really important. You know, like, there's, you know, and. And. And then, you know, you, you know, kind of get into that conversation. Like, I posted something on social media the other day about men's mental health month and, like, how, you know, like, I didn't talk about loneliness necessarily, but I did talk about just, like, men need an out, need to communicate. Like, we just need to. We're not good communicators. We are really good at just, like, bottling things up, holding it in. And then, boom, somebody says something at the wrong time, and then it explodes. And, you know, you got to go back and pick up the pieces. And I think. And I got, like, you know, a bunch of people DMing me. Well, it's not just men. And I'm like, look, you know, like, I don't know what to say. You know, like, men are having this problem right now, and a lot of it has to do with technology. You know, a lot of, like, all the work that we used to do was typically for, you know, hundreds and thousands of years outside, right, with other dudes getting your hands dirty. And now in the last hundred years, that's all been brought inside. And so a lot of us are sitting inside, typically behind a screen. And that's how, you know, and men are not judged on how many friends you have. You're not judged on, you know, maybe today more you're judged on how. How good a shape you're in, right? But that you can do that alone, right? You don't have to be in a community to get in great shape. You're judged on how much money you have, how many. You know, what your marriage is, like, what kind of car you drive, what kind of house you live in. Like, that's what we're judged on. So those are the things that we all strive to be, like, to build, right? Finances, family, the house, the car. But ultimately, none of that shit really matters at the end of the day, if you. If you hate your life, you know, because you're alone a lot of the time. And so I think that's a conversation that not enough people are having, because we should be judged on how Many friends we have and the quality of those friendships. And I think what you guys are doing with pathos is making that a priority. Right? Like surrounding yourself with people. Even right now we're in a group of five people about to chop it up, you know, and it's awesome to just see the bond that you guys have together, that you guys spend so much time together. And so, you know, I mean, I felt like kicking it off that way because of. Of the month that we're in and also just like, how I have witnessed and seen what you guys are doing. Like that, that, that thing this morning that we did was so, so great, you know?
- [06:02]
Ryan
Yeah, dude, that was a heck of an opener. Let's go. And, and this is a much needed conversation. I'll kick it off to Ryan and I'll just preface it with this. It's never. Is never clean. It's never a perfect process. You know, like, we talked about iron, sharpening iron and how important that is, how necessary it is, but that's a. That is a uncomfortable process with two blades, you know, rubbing up against each other, sharpening each other. It's a. It's not a perfect process. So there's. It gets messy and we're working on our own dynamics and relationships and telling each other the truth and being more real and having better communication just like any other group or relationship. So I, I kick it off to you, Ryan, since this whole kind of group dynamic, specifically with the beach workout, started with you training alone.
- [06:54]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [06:57]
Josh
We really didn't even know that this was going to transpire into really what it has become. You know, know, it started with, you know, me just working out on the beach, tired of doing CrossFit, body wasn't feeling really well. This guy comes out, he was training for, I believe, a half or an Olympic try, brings his camera, takes a few photos, another guy sees it, he comes out the next week, and then another guy and then another guy. And once we started to create kind of like this container around what we were doing, we realized just what you were. We're talking about.
- [07:37]
Michael Chernow
Like, we're, we're.
- [07:41]
Josh
There is a real sense and need for community, otherwise these, these men just wouldn't be coming out in the numbers that they were coming out. And it just exploded to 30 to.
- [07:52]
Brian
40, to 50 to 60 guys.
- [07:54]
Josh
And we just realized that, wow, there's something to this. There's something about creating a container and creating a space for men to come together, to share, to be vulnerable to, to. To work out together and just begin to really Start to build community. And here we are, you know, two years later, and, you know, kind of a brand's been kind of born out of that. So I'm really proud of what we built. And, yeah, you touched on it. I mean, men really are the loneliest that they have ever been. You know, we shared a New York Times article from a few months ago. Just talked about statistically how many men are so lonely. And just as you talk about, like, you go through high school and you have this group of friends that filter out, and then you go through college, and then that. That filters out to even smaller, and then you get married, and that gets filtered out. And you're, like, really lucky to have one or two gu. Like, in your life, really, that you communicate with on a daily or a weekly basis. And that's if you're lucky. Most men don't even have that one.
- [09:06]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [09:07]
Josh
And, you know, how can you be your truest self? And, I mean, guys need that outlet. They need that container in that space, you know, because it's. It's almost like it's. It's. It's in our intuitive nature to be surrounded by masculinity. That hunter gatherer, you know, mentality.
- [09:31]
Brian
I love, too, that, like, there was no plan to this at all. Like, people are always like, how do we start our own pathos? And, like, what's the business plan behind what you guys are doing? And stuff. I'm like, that's kind of the most beautiful part is that it was literally just one person out on the beach working out designs, like, better themselves, which attracted other people. And people always reach out to. Ryan knows, like, on our social Media, we get 10 messages a month that say, like, I want to start a pathos. And mine, I'm telling, like, oh, I wish I had something like that Ryan. You guys are so lucky. Like, we don't have a Brian.
- [10:04]
Michael Chernow
We don't have a call.
- [10:05]
Brian
We don't have a Ryan. I don't have a Josh where I live. You're so lucky. But it's like, we didn't have that either until one person decided to go out embedding themselves, and then that attracts other people. And I think I always tell people, like, if it can happen in Sarasota, it can happen. If you don't know much about Sarasota, like, this is a retired community.
- [10:23]
Josh
Yeah.
- [10:24]
Brian
Of old people. Bless them. But, like, it's not a place where you would imagine 80 jacked dudes working out on the beach every week. So I stuff people. Like, it is possible to find those people, you just gotta be willing to better yourself and attract those types of people, because they do exist wherever you.
- [10:42]
Michael Chernow
Are in the world. Yeah, I mean, look, you know, I. I've been. I've been lucky enough to chat with people that have lots and lots and lots of success in money, financial success. And the conversation that I've had with them is never. Has never been like, oh, yeah, I'm done. I've done it. It's always like, more. I need more. And so when you really boil that down, like, you know, and I can. I can only. I mean, I can speak for myself, right? Like, starting a business for the first time when I was 28, having the thing take off, like wildfire. Going from bartending in restaurants to having one of the, like, hottest restaurants in New York City to then scaling it, you know, I kind of look at it like, if you're not. If the journey there is not. If you're not present for the journey, right? Where you're just, like, constantly moving, constantly moving, like, thinking about the next, thinking about the next, thinking about the next. And then all of a sudden, you find yourself at the top of this mountain. Like, how much time do you spend up there? Because everybody's like, oh, yeah, like, that's where you. That's where you got to go. You got to get to the top, right? But, like, once you're there, you, like, look to your left, you look to your right, maybe you give a high five and a hug and you walk back down. You know what I'm saying? And you're just like, all right, like, there's a taller one, you know? And so I think really where, like, like, being happy, being successful in life is really, like, times that you spend with your friends. Like, if you're not for me and I. And I. I should stop speaking in the year. If you're not. Like, if I'm not spending as much time with the people I love most in my life, I'm not winning. I believe that. And that's why, you know, like, on the beach, one of the. One of the. One of the girls who was there came up to me, and she's a. She's an entrepreneur. She started a little business. She was talking to me about, you know, entrepreneurship, and, you know, I explained to her that I haven't felt successful as an entrepreneur until just recently. When I learned how to draw real boundaries in my life, it was all about the work for a long time. And now for the last, like, three, four years, I have a start time and an end time. And on either side of the start and the end is family time. Those lines were completely blurred for at least a decade where it was just like, I fit my family in when I can. And it wasn't intentional. It was just like I thought I was doing the right thing. But now it's like, no, I wake up at 5 o' clock in the morning every day to be able to get two hours in before my wife and kids wake up. Because I know I also can't sacrifice my well being, right? So like if I want to be selfish and be in great shape and do the saunas and the cold plunges and the fucking red light therapies and the, you know, like, if I want to do that stuff, which I do selfishly, like it makes me feel good, like I'm able to do that, but I'm not going to sacrifice the time with my, my family to do it. So I wake up super early, I get that stuff done, and at seven o' clock in the morning my wife and kids are just getting up and it's boom. Like I'm in there with them from 7 to 8, 8:15 till I take the kids to school. And then from 8 to 5:30 I work. And 5, 6 years ago if I would have told you that I was like a nine to fiver, because I am. There's a reason why nine to five works, right? And we, we, you know that the nine to five thing has always been like, oh, nine to five, you know, like you don't really care about your job, you're just a nine to five. Or you clock it in, clocking out. No, no, like there's a reason why 9 to 5 was set up. It's a rhythm. But it's also like, hey, you're supposed to live your life too, right? Like what's the point of putting in the work if, if you're not enjoying your life, right? Does it make sense to work from 8 o' clock in the morning to 8 o', clock, 9 o' clock at night and then by the time you're done, you've got no time for anybody else. You've got, your wife wants to sit down and talk with you about your day. You're like, I don't want to talk about my day, I'm done, I want to go to bed. You know. And, and so one thing that my wife and I have started doing probably about a year ago, which was super helpful and powerful for our relationship and our marriage and our bond was every night after Dinner. The kids, you know, go off and do what they want to do, and we sit at the dinner table for a half an hour and we just jam, you know, she talks about her day, I talk about my day. Prior to that, I don't think my wife knew anything about my life. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just like this dude that she lives with that just disappears during the day and like, shows back up and kind of just like picks up where we left off, breakfast, you know. And so now, you know, like, I have this, this, this time with her and. But I just, I, like, as I'm evolving as a human and as an entrepreneur and just as a person, I'm just leaning more and more towards this idea that, like, success is not about what you have financially, what you can see with your eyes. Success is how you feel about yourself, you know? And, like, what makes me feel the best when my little son walks up to me and says, dad, I love you more than anything in the world. You're the best daddy in the world. And I'm just like, boom, that's it. I don't need, like, what else do I need, like, legitimately, if my son and he's, you know, there's. They're smart, but they're real. Those kids are real, right? Like, they're not, they're not like, they're not fabricating to like, you know, if my son walks up to me, gives me a hug and says, daddy, I love you more than anything else in the world, like, he means that. That's worth more than any business acquisition for me. Because chances are, if all I was focused on was the acquisition, selling my company, that kid wouldn't roll up and say, dad, I love you more than anything in the world. And that's all I want. I want my son to love me more than anything in the world because I love that kid more than anything in the world. And I know that that is where I am my best. I feel my best. That doesn't mean that I have to sacrifice my health, doesn't mean that I don't have to work out. That means that I have to maybe sacrifice some time. Wake up at 5 o' clock in the morning. But guess what? If I go to bed at 9:30, waking up at 5:00 clock in the morning is like, piece of cake, you.
- [17:42]
Ryan
Know, If I may to add to that, the. What I love about this group, these guys right here, is that they remind me of the truth of what you said, that success is not a what but it's a.
- [17:56]
Michael Chernow
How.
- [17:57]
Ryan
It's the way you approach life. It's the way you show up, right. It's the energy you give to other people, and it's the approach you have to the tasks and to the actions that you take for the day. So the payoff on the business side, that doesn't mean you're successful if you went about it the wrong way. So with pathos specifically, I'm. I'm so fortunate to be able to be in that container almost every week. And, you know, life happens. Kids and things happen. So I'm not there every week, but every time I go, I'm never disappointed because it's not just movement, although that is medicine that will make your day better. It's not just even conversations, because that's the same thing. It makes my day better when I convert, conversate, and meet new people.
- [18:45]
Michael Chernow
But it's the.
- [18:47]
Ryan
It's the whole package. You're doing something hard with other people, you're making new connections. And then we always drive down to this intentional. Whether it be spiritual or metaphors or this life lesson type of. Type of field. And that. That's a game changer. And what it's allowed me to do is. Is to. And I think this is. This is where we're going too. I mean, I could be wrong, but you could be surrounded by people at work or in on teams or wherever you are, but still feel isolated, alone. And for me, yeah, that feeling of aloneness came from me not being willing to show who I am and to be real with someone, you know, and to be myself. So it was to the extent that I was willing to, like, really see someone and have them see me was the extent that I connected with that person and felt seen. So it takes bravery, and I think that's what we're all. We all. It's a top value for all of us. Brave, bravery, living courageously. Because, yeah, most guys, Most people, I think, are settling for a life less than what they were created for because it's easier. It's more automatic, it's more natural. I'm gonna work really hard in the business and kind of let everything else go. But when you choose bravery and courage, that opens your entire world up and it gives you stuff that you really didn't know you needed, like brotherhood, like connection. Like, wow. I'm actually supported by people who I've never really had a long relationship with, but we're in the same energy, we're in the same mission of becoming. So I mean, I just I want to hear from Flo. Selfishly, it's like, you can take it however you want. You can go off that or what Michael was saying, but you got three kids, so you have the most kids out of everyone here. How do you navigate time with like minded people? Because you have a lot of things on your plate.
- [20:38]
Flo
But, yeah, I think the last. I mean, we moved here, and I don't want to say, like, only for pathos. Sarasota, Florida is a beautiful place. Like, the beach is a plus. You know, the weather's great. But, like, I came here three years ago with my family on a trip just for like a month. We were like, we wanted to move. We were in the Midwest, in Oklahoma. We wanted to, like, just kind of explore and get out somewhere new. For my wife and I, that was close to the water. And I told her, I said, look, I've been to Sarasota, Florida. Let's try it out. And she was like, isn't that where like a bunch of old, like, retired people live? You know? And I said, like, I promise you, like, there's guys down there.
- [21:12]
Ryan
Like, there's at least three.
- [21:13]
Michael Chernow
There's at least a guy.
- [21:14]
Ryan
There's at least three guys.
- [21:16]
Flo
So we, we came down, I met Josh, I met Brian, and then Josh texted us, like, almost. I think it was like the last week I was here. And they were like, hey, there's this guy that meets up at the beach on like, like Thursday mornings just to do this workout. I'm doing it to train for a triathlon. Like, let's go check it out.
- [21:32]
Michael Chernow
We all go.
- [21:33]
Flo
Unbeknownst to any of us, that was like our first. All four of us being together. And I remember specifically looking at Ryan afterwards, and I was like, listen, I know you don't want to turn this into a business. I don't. I. I know you're not trying to do anything with this, but I would have paid you a lot of money for what you just put us through, because I. I felt so impacted by it. I felt like the value was there. And we still to this day do all of our events, you know, here, locally, every Thursday, they're free. We want that to stay a container, especially for men, to build community, to build connection. But I think what that's allowed all of us to do is to redefine what it means to be rich growing up. I think, like, you superficially have this definition of like. Like you talked about, right? The cars, the house, you know, the job, the money, being able to afford, like, to take Vacations with your family, all these things. But, like, my definition of being rich has since evolved, since I moved here, got connected with these guys, been a part of pathos every single week. And that is being able to have the freedom to spend my time with the people I love the most. Very similar to what you just talked about. That's time with my. My wife and my kids, obviously, like, first and foremost, but, like, having the capacity to be able to go spend time with my friends. I mean, how lucky are we? And then getting to go do that in this setting on the beach, doing something hard together every Thursday morning with that group of men, setting the intentionality at the end, and then just being able to connect with other men. Dude, like, that one hour fills up us in so many guys and the connections that have been built around pathos. We've got guys starting businesses together out of the fact that they met at pathos, going to work in office spaces together, like, in all walks of life. So I think the power there is, like, everyone understanding, like, being rich doesn't just mean, like, oh, it's like, about the money or the car. It's about who you get to spend your time with. And I think that's what we've all gotten to discover through pathos. At least that's how I felt. And that's what. That's what drew my wife and I here and why we are raising our family here.
- [23:44]
Michael Chernow
Now I kind of look at it and listen to you guys and, you know, for whatever reason, fun has kind of been, like, looked at as like a lazy person's pastime, right? Oh, like, if fun is a pillar in your life, like, oh, dude's never going to, you know, it's kind of. Yeah, it's just kind of like a nomad, you know, traveling around, you know, like living in a van, you know, like, these guys don't have responsibility.
- [24:20]
Ryan
Sound like you sound like my father in law.
- [24:22]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, but, but, but, like, you know, who knows if you get one time around, right? It's kind of unclear, but if. If it is, if it is. If it is one time around, like, have as much fun as you. As you can. Have as much fun as you can, right? And like, yeah, it's awesome to have goals and to, like, push hard and hit the freaking gas, but also, like, have the self awareness to, like, live your life and with a smile, like, like enjoy. Like live it and enjoy it, you know? And I just, as I'm getting, you know, older, which I am, man, I'm getting older. It's weird, you know, like getting wiser. I'll start using that.
- [25:10]
Flo
But.
- [25:13]
Michael Chernow
I just want to have more fun, man. I want to have more fun. Like I want to hunt more. I want to, I want to, I want to go on more vacations, you know, I had this guy in my podcast like four years ago, this dude, Gino Wickman. He created this business called Entrepreneur Entrepreneurial Operating System eos. A lot of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurial networks and they apply his system.
- [25:39]
Brian
Yeah, what was that?
- [25:41]
Michael Chernow
Traction. Yeah, exactly. And so I had this guy on the podcast and I was talking to him, you know, looking at this guy's life from the outside, you're like, this dude is super successful financially, right?
- [25:53]
Flo
How?
- [25:53]
Michael Chernow
The guy on the podcast read his book, had him on the podcast and he, one of the first things he said was, oh, I take 150 days off, a year off. And I was like looking at him sideways like, like walk me through that. What do you mean by that? And he was like, well, I'll break it down to you real simply. He's like, I take every weekend off. So that's 104 days right there. Boom. 52 times, times, times 2, 104 days I take off every year. I do not work on the weekends, period. Done. And I was like, I'm going to start doing that. And then he was like, I take the month of August off. And I was like, okay, I could try to figure out how to work that into my life.
- [26:34]
Ryan
It's a big one.
- [26:35]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. And then he was like, I take at least two 10 day vacations a year with my family. So I was like, all right, so no week, no working on the weekends, two 10 day vacations and the month of August. I'm just here to say now I am so close to that. I am scratching the surface of that. And I used to, like I would feel bad, like not personally, like I would feel judged by saying that out loud. Oh yeah, like, you know, I work from 8:30 to 5:30. I take two 10 day vacations, I take the month of August off and guess what? I never work on the weekends. Now I say that with pride.
- [27:15]
Ryan
Yeah.
- [27:16]
Michael Chernow
Like I do not work on the weekends. And guess what, team creatures of habit. I do not expect you to work on the weekends. Oh yeah, and guess what? I do not expect you to respond to emails or write emails after 6:00 clock at night. If you choose to, if you choose to work on the weekends, go for it. Like go for it. But, but I'm also going to, going to Check you if I feel like you're getting burnt out. Like, if you're, if you're burning the candle at both ends, I don't want you on the team. If you can't control your ability to, like, pause and push the brakes, I don't want you on the team because that energy is going to bleed into other things that we're doing. And I do believe in this, like, balanced life. I don't. When you see some of these hard chargers, be like, ah, this work life balance thing isn't real. I'm like, that's B.S. it is real. And if it's not real for you, I would love to hear the thoughts in your head at. On the 13th hour on a Tuesday when everybody else in your life is like, somewhat enjoying themselves and you're just out to lunch. And even if you are there at the table, you're like. Because all you think about is your work. So I'm not saying that I'm slowing down. I'm saying that I'm actually speeding up. And I'm speeding up because I want, like, when it's all done, I don't want people to talk about the businesses I've created. I want them to be like, I want my sons to be like, my dad was. My dad was bench pressing £225 and 90, you know, and like, there's no way to get there if all I do is think about my business. You know, I want my kids to say, the greatest times of my life were with my dad. I want my kids to get older and have their families and, you know, can't wait to get home to their mom and dad's place for the holidays. Like, like, are stoked to, to pack the car and get on the flight or wherever. Hopefully they're not that far away, but, you know, get home on the holidays to spend time with us. Like, that's what I want. That's what I want. You know, like, does it matter if I have the biggest house and the greatest cars? Like, it would be great. It would be great. But I think we as men are judged on those things. And I think that is probably the conversation that needs to be had most. What, what, what could we start saying? And you know, because everybody at this table is influential, everybody here has got a following, right? Of, of. Of men typically that want to be. Emulate you. They like, look at you and say, this is the one. This is the, this is one of the guys that I just kind of like, want to, want to kind of follow in the footsteps of. And so if. If we all commit to saying, hey, like, it's not all about the bank account. Judge your friends on what they do when the camera's off. Judge your friends on how many friends, how many real people they communicate with on a regular basis. That is what richness in life I'm learning now is about. You know, have you heard of the.
- [30:34]
Ryan
Quote by Simon Sinek about friendship?
- [30:37]
Flo
I don't know.
- [30:40]
Ryan
And I think it's really important to define friendship because we're sitting here talking friendship, which is beautiful. It's like. But how do you know a real friend? A friend is someone who's committed to growing with you. A friend is someone who's committed to growth. I think we all know there's people in our lives, especially in the past, that would much rather see us be pulled back down to who we used to be than who we can become. It's that crab in the crabs in the bucket. You have your hometown friends or your old friends or whoever it may be new friends, but they'd much rather see you stay back here than to step into your potential. And I love the idea of the real reward. The real prize is not the money. It's not the car, it's not the vacations, although those are memories for the families. But it's the person you're becoming. And you do the things that help you become more the person you're becoming. You surround yourself with the people who remind you of who you can be, who you are. Right. And then commit to growth with you. And you think the thoughts that are are in line with that vision of who you are. And then to know and. And I'll pass it back to you, Ry, is to know that we as men in a culture that defines us by what we do, how well we do it, and the metrics around those two things. To know who we are as men, as humans, is so much deeper, more powerful. Like, at the end of the day, we can't be defined by those things, but that's what culture tells us. That's who we are. So it's growing with who? The knowledge of who you are and your essence as a human being, loved on, created on purpose, for a purpose that at least for me, has really give me, given me this anchor to then approach work and approach achieving in the best way possible. Yeah, that's beautifully said.
- [32:34]
Josh
And I love the fact that you spoke on, like, getting back to enjoying life and having fun. And that word is something that resonates with me, and I think with Pathos. It is a pillar of, of what we try and invoke in the community. But not just, not just fun like finding that childlike wonder again. Right. Because we've talked about this often. It's like really think about when you were the, your purest self, non judgmental, light hearted, not a care in the world, non judgmental. It's like when were you that when you were a kid when you could just go out and just be who you were as a kid. And I think that's what's so important about like invigorating that within the community to just remember that it's about unbecoming all of these things that we have become and these expectations as men as you talked about and really breaking it down and just getting back to that self. And that doesn't mean like go and not be responsible in your life but invoke that wonder again and live with that. Right. And when you do that, I mean I think life just becomes a little.
- [34:03]
Michael Chernow
Bit more light hearted.
- [34:06]
Josh
Love is easier to enter into your heart and yeah, I mean that's why we do like the best day of the month. You come out like we're limboing, we're egg tossing where you're working in teams like kids.
- [34:20]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [34:21]
Josh
You know, you're bear crawling together. You're, you're, you're, you're piggybacking each through lines. It's like when was the last time.
- [34:27]
Michael Chernow
That you did that?
- [34:28]
Josh
The last time I raised that question to the group, had one guy get second grade, like second grade 30 year old man. Like I think that's important to get back to that.
- [34:38]
Ryan
And it's given, it's given ourselves permission to be happy. That's what I hear. Because as grown men we don't give ourselves permission to be happy or to enjoy the work. And that state of work as you're enjoying and taking a, and in a playful approach to work that might be the peak of success. You're enjoying the tasks or the responsibilities or things that you're working on. Like that's, that's a beautiful way to do it. And for men, I mean at least for me, I think it's giving myself permission to play and to be happy. Like we like I am the. I can be my own biggest fan or I can be my own biggest prison. You know, I can just stifle, I can stop, I can guard and protect. But we're talking about living wholeheartedly, we're talking about having fun and enjoying the process. You, we all have the in the inner child that we can tap into and say, you know what? I'm gonna give you permission, like, be. Be who you are and be real and have fun. And that's a muscle that grows. I believe that inner child, like, energy will grow as you just have the courage to just tap back in. Small little action there. And pathos does give us that opportunity.
- [35:53]
Brian
It's easier to be the guy who doesn't do that. Like, I think what you're saying about, like, people look at the guy who's like, someone like you, who's going, having fun and taking days out to work, they look you up. Oh, that's the easy route. But I think that's the way harder route. The easy route was to be a status quo, to not be vulnerable with guys, to not be like a child, to not put yourself out there. Like, I think it's so easy to fall into this rhythm of life, of being successful, what the world defines successful. It's way harder to say, like, actually, I don't define that as success. This is what I define as success. And it's kind of funny that we've gotten so far away from what's natural. Like you were saying, like, we're so lucky and fortunate to have this. Like, that's a crazy concept.
- [36:38]
Michael Chernow
But this is so huge.
- [36:41]
Brian
Think about, like, the Bible guys that you're talking about them out hunting every day. Like, they looked at our lives and, like, they have to schedule time to go hang out with each other and.
- [36:49]
Michael Chernow
They have to go on the beach.
- [36:51]
Brian
You know, like, that used to be a part of our everyday lives. Like, the fact that we're so far disconnected from that is crazy. I think you're right. I think it takes people like us and people with influence and stuff to say, like, hey, that's not real success. Like, this is what real success looks like. It's the apocryphal being. Communion with three brothers, living a life that's full of love to your family. Your brother's quantum rotor.
- [37:15]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. I mean, I also kind of think about, like, you know, like, what makes us unique as humans, right? There's maybe a handful of living beings that are capable of loving, right? We're one of them humans. I think dolphins, elephants, and maybe whales are the others. And when you look at, like, what God gave us, this ability to actually love, right? I mean, it's God given, right? Like, we were put here at the end of the day, ultimately, to love. That is our number one priority. Love and procreate, right? And so we have this ability to communicate. The best way to love is. And be loved is to communicate. It's how you do it. You find someone, you make little ones. You know, you.
- [38:08]
Flo
You.
- [38:08]
Michael Chernow
You have a parent, you know, like, you.
- [38:10]
Josh
You.
- [38:11]
Michael Chernow
The love is exchanged. This currency, what we were given as a very unique characteristic, as our makeup. And a lot of us just, like, not prioritizing because of where we're. Where this sort of society is driving us, right? And so I, I, you know, I guess the conversation is not to just, like, drop it all and love and live on the road, you know.
- [38:51]
Flo
But.
- [38:51]
Michael Chernow
Like, but it's no surprise, right? When the world was sort of hit, hit like an absolute, like, like, crashed and burned in 2020. Like, what did all. Like, what did all sorts of people do? They were like, all right, well, it looks like nobody can work right now. Let's go have fun. Let's buy a van and hit the road, right? Like that. I was like, I put a smile on my face to see that happening, you know? So I do think, you know, it's. It's. It's such a dream conversation to have, right? To be like, all right, we got to just love more and we got to have more fun, but at the end of the day, really, like, what would make this world a better place? Love more, have more fun, you know? And like, luckily for people like us, we find fun in taking care of ourselves, right? Getting after in the gym, like, there's really. I can't. I can't think of a place outside of, like, sitting in front of the fire with my wife and kids and enjoying life that way. Like, I can't think of a more fun place to be than training hard. Like, I love to train hard. I love to challenge myself. It saved my life, and it saves my life on a daily basis. So when I get asked by, By. By people, whether it's in person or on social media or whatever, like, hey, I'm struggling, you know, I don't. I need to find direction, you know? My first question is, all right, well, what time did you go to bed last night? Like, that's the question I asked.
- [40:20]
Ryan
Like, what do you.
- [40:20]
Michael Chernow
What does that. And I'm like, well, let's start. Let's. Let's rip it all back down to the basics, right? Like, you go to bed early, you wake up early, you wake up early, you get a bunch of time to take care of yourself. That's where it starts, you know? And then once you start taking care of yourself, because this was my story. I was the Most selfish person in the world. When I was addicted to drugs and alcohol and also hated myself more than anything in the world, it was like this insane, weird juxtaposition of love. Hated myself more than anything, but was so selfish because I didn't care about anybody else. And so once I like, just sort of was able to like, think, you know, by the grace of God, like, push that stuff to the side, I was told and taught, like, all right, we got to bring it right back down to the basics, man. You got to just start taking care of yourself. And then once you start taking care of yourself, fitness, nutrition, mindset, you start to feel successful, you start to feel confident, you start to be able to take risks in a positive way. You know, this idea that I, that I kind of came up with, like the three Cs, which is like, you know, you commit. Commitment breeds confidence, confidence breeds courage. Those three things in that succession. You know, you start at night and go to bed early. Like, I literally, this is like sort of my kind of master plan for myself. Go to bed early, wake up early, wake up early, have the time, have the time. Commit to the things that you're going to do in that time. And then boom, everybody else days start at 7:00 and you've already won. You've already won. You've won way before everybody else. And like, if imagine, imagine 1% of the world started living that way, you know, like, we'd be in a different place.
- [42:10]
Ryan
You know, I think to your point, we don't know what we don't know and we don't know how good it feels to take care of ourselves until we start doing it. And then how, how addicted you can become to growing and to taking care of yourself. So the question becomes, you know, do you think all men, do you think most men love and respect themselves enough to take care of themselves? You know, I think that's a big question. I think because we can know the things to do. We live in the chat GPT information, 10.0 world. We know everything, do we not? You know, we can know everything. We may not know the, the, you know, shape of the world, the shape of the earth. Josh is a flat earth. But I'm out of here. Yeah, but, you know, I mean, maybe we do, maybe we do. But the point being is we have all the information, man. It's out there. It takes. We need less information. We need more transformation. And I believe transformation starts with the man in the mirror. It starts with how you see yourself. And nothing changed my world faster and more powerfully than having my first daughter. I've told it before, but I'll switch it up. Like the angle when we took her home, I looked in this girl's eyes and I'm like, man, I would. I would die for you. I would die for you. And I'm going to live for you. But I wish you could just. I wish you could know how loved you are. I think we all with kids want that. With spouses, we want to know. Sorry. We want our loved ones to know how much we love them. Because I know I don't speak my wife's love language enough and as well as I should and as well as I want to, but I want them to feel that. And so it dawned on me though, like, the only way she could experience how loved she is is if she saw herself through daddy's eyes. So when that clicked, I'm like, dang, dude. Okay, that's true for Gianna. I was once that little boy. I was once that little miracle. And regardless of my. If my parents loved me in the same way I love my. My daughter, that's who we are in essence, right? So it's having that amount of love and respect for yourself to then take care of yourself in the best way. And that's what's really opened my world up. It's like, if I can just choose to love and respect myself, to take care of myself, to show of who I am and give myself away to people, like, that makes me. That makes me really. I feel. I feel really full. I feel really full and full of life when that happens. So, you know, I think if guys can tap into that love and respect for themselves, that's a game changer because you start building into who you are. And you can give a lot more when that's happening. So it's not information, it's transformation that happens through seeing yourself from a higher perspective.
- [45:03]
Brian
Yeah, man.
- [45:04]
Michael Chernow
I mean, look, I. We were talking about it earlier, you know, I hosted this men's retreat. This is my first men's retreat that I ever hosted. And 30 guys showed up. And we kicked off the retreat on a Thursday night. Thirty guys around a fire. And the idea was everybody was just going to get up and introduce themselves, say who they are, why they, you know, how they found out about it and why they were there. And the first guy stood up within a minute of talking, just explosion of tears. Second guy, explosion of tears. Third guy. It was like a tear party. And it was just. It just dawned on me, like, how much we suppress how little freedom we boot, we feel as men to be able to just share openly about what is going on in between our own two ears, you know, because like, life is the, is a perspective, you know what I'm saying? Like, this could all be a hologram. Who the hell knows, right? But like, it's just about what's going on right here. Like this is how we live. We, we walk through life. And you know, it's, it's not that. It's really, when you break it down, like it's not that difficult. It's it, it. You get a, you get a bunch of dudes together, everybody's got things that they want to talk about and they want to unload and we just, they're just not, not a lot of space for it, you know. And so you talk about self love and self respect like any dude that's listening to this podcast, right? And I'm sure there's a lot of them talking to you, bro. Like, if you're feeling derailed and like off the beam and just trying to like grasp for whatever's around, you know, go to bed early, wake up early, start with that, you know, like that could very well be the change that, that you need, right? And then doing that, you kind of find things to do in that early morning time, which is like, you know, look, I've also been leaning like just deep into God recently. You know, God has become. God has just been showing up like, and just, and not, you know, for years. For me it was God and it was the universe because that's what I was kind of taught in the 12 step program. It was like very non religious, non secular, just like God of your understanding. Most recently, Jesus has been showing up in my life, just all over the place, through people, in the sky, in my prayer, just showing up. And so I'm just leaning into it, you know. And that early, those early morning hours between 5 and 7am for me, that's like, I feel like that's like God's time. It's just weird. But I'm just like, this is time that I've just been, you know, like, this is the time where I get to truly connect, you know, and, and develop the relationship and like show up for the person that God wants me to show up for so that I could be at 7:00 in the morning when those two little kids show up in their pajamas and I want, all I want to do is just like chew on their faces, like I'm, that I'm there. I'm there, like God would want me to be there, you know, and if you, if you're, if you're not in a relationship or you don't have kids or, you know, like, that person that you got to show up for at 7 o' clock in the morning is you, dude. Like you, you know, and whether God's a thing for you or not, like, we, we have a choice, you know, nine out of 10 times. And look, mental illness is a real thing, right? Like, I know that's true, but really, like, you could, you could live in this. I'm a depressed person. I have clinical depression. I just, you don't understand, like, I cannot get out of bed. You, you know, because I've also been given that noise too, when I'm saying, hey, just like, do it. Like, you are the one that has control. You can control it. You can set a go to bed alarm. You can do it. At 9:30, that alarm goes off. Get into bed and close your eyes, listen to an audiobook, do something that way, you know, because ultimately we have the ability to do the things that we aspire to when we see other people doing it. And there's only one person standing in the way of us and that, and that's us. And so if you're banging your head against the wall thinking that somebody's going to show up with a silver platter of awesome life for you, like, it isn't, it's not going to happen. That's a hologram, you know, that's. Yeah, it's just not going to happen. You know, like, if anybody listening to this podcast is like, takes anything away, just know that you have everything you need, you got everything you need. It's all available, you know? And, you know, I think, I think like, if we can, if we can get in the ears of men and just let them know that, like, if you based your whole entire life on how much money you make or what other people think of how much money you make or what other people think of how much money you have. Because let's, let's get real deal here, right? It's all about money. I'm saying, like that is it that status? It's money. It's like, it's where society has pointed us as men to judge our lives on, right? How much money we have. And like, it's not yours. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I was excited to have this conversation and talk about these things because I just, I, like, I just know that there's so much more left on the table for so many people that are battling in this loneliness time. Right? Like.
- [51:39]
Flo
When you kick the, you kick the podcast off, I mean, I think a lot of it comes down to this. Like, we, we've lost control. We were just talking about this yesterday. We've lost control over our ability to, like, put our phones down. It's keeping you up late at night. It's distracting you throughout the day from, you know, maybe connecting with other people. Like, how often do you sit there on, on the couch for 30 minutes and like, just, oh, I just need to scroll for a little bit. No, you don't. Like, when have you ever felt better doing that? I know. I have literally never walked away from like, sitting there, scrolling, consuming other people, you know, doing things. I mean, there's a time and place. I understand that. But also, it's like if you're someone who's got your back up against the wall, it's like this to me, like in modern day society is the first thing that you got to get in check.
- [52:26]
Michael Chernow
You might as well just get a shovel and start digging deeper. I agree.
- [52:28]
Flo
I'm like, dude, break the damn thing and get a flip phone. You know, like, because it's like that. I look, you know, I look at my screen time a lot. And I got, I got this app called Social Limits. It literally keeps me off of my social media every morning until I've hit 2,000 steps. And you can set it to 5,000 steps. But it's like the whole premise behind that, and I know the guy who started it, but it's like, it's such a good idea because I'm like that. It's like, hey, the premise is get up, chase real dopamine, move your body, you know, go for a run, go for a walk, like, get in the gym. Like, do anything to move your body. For me too. Like those early sacred hours in the morning, like, that keeps me away from this, helps me focus on me, helps me sit down. It helps me journal, make my coffee, read a book. And then when my kids are up, right, Like, I'm ready for them, you know, I'm like, there for them. I'm present with them versus being distracted, you know, having my eyeballs on a screen versus, like, you know, on them, connecting with them. Yeah, like in the real world. So I think like, a lot of that loneliness, particularly with men, like, ties back to that, like gaining control over this thing that is literally designed to dominate your attention. Looking at this and going like, dude, put it in a lockbox. If you have to like freaking set an alarm on your watch. You know, it's like whatever you have to do to get away from your phone, I think is, is it. And I, we just talked about this. Like, I literally just started yesterday. I'm like, I am going to go two weeks. My wife encouraged me to do this. It's like, no scrolling, just creating. Cause that's my job. I do social media. I know not everybody listening to this podcast does social media, but like part of what I've been struggling with is being creative, being like creating from a place of authenticity, being myself, like pulling out of, you know, who I am and like then kind of reflecting that in the content that I produce. And I think anytime I've gone through a creative rut, the first place I looks like, how much am I scrolling right now? And I was talking to my wife the other night, she goes, why don't you just try it for two weeks? Don't scroll, Just get on, create, post, whatever, then get off. And I'm sitting there going, yeah, that's a good idea. And I told him yesterday, I'm like, I'm gonna start tomorrow. Like, literally we had the conversation two nights. I'm like, all right, so I did it yesterday, I'm doing it today, dude. More present with my kids, more present with myself. I've read the past two mornings in a row, haven't been reading the past like month, you know what I'm saying? So it's like you can already see, it's like, wow, there are minutes in the day to do these things. There's minutes in the day to like pour into yourself, to spend time on yourself. We've got a six week old, two other toddlers. Like, our life is very chaotic at home right now. If you can find that like margin that, you know, little bit of, of peace in the day to spend on yourself, like that to me is like all worth it.
- [55:15]
Josh
So you got to put something down.
- [55:16]
Brian
And talk about, like, talk about like false perspective of success too. Like if all you're doing is looking at other people's perfect life. But yeah, you're going to feel alone. Like you're just grasp and first up. And I think that's the beautiful part about this is like none of us have the answers. And that's the most beautiful part. Like we're all in this together. And I think like when you're talking directly to the guys, listen, this is like we're all waiting to you. Like we're all trying to figure it out. You're not one clank. So many guys feel alone and they can, they can look at someone like, you guys feel like, oh, well, that's easy for him to say. He's got a thriving business, beautiful family, he's fit. But it's like, that's why it's amazing that you share now. I've, I've been through it, I'm still go through it. Like, I still have struggles. That's the beautiful thing about pathos is like, seeing these guys get up in front of everyone. Like someone like Brian, who from the outside looks like he's got it all figured out, go up there and say, like, be vulnerable, everyone. That's, I think, an insanely powerful thing about pathos and just about really in general is like, not alone. Like other people are going through this and like, just that alone is like enough to keep you going, like to make you want to be better. I don't think anyone has to have the answers to. Like, this is how you get better at life. It's just like I'm juggling too. It's like, oh, okay.
- [56:28]
Michael Chernow
The beauty of that though is that, like, we all start somewhere, you know, like, we all have to start somewhere. I was lucky that I, I was, I mean, I wasn't forced, but I was lucky that at 23 years old, I overdosed on heroin. I'm grateful for that because that forced me to start doing what I do now then. So I got a head start on this life that I've been working towards building. You know, they, they, they say, like, what's the best time to plant a tree? Like yesterday, right? Like, we all start somewhere. We all start somewhere. And unless you're born into a billionaire family, and even then you probably have a lot of stuff going on, like, you got to start somewhere. And so I think, you know, because I have had that a lot. Where. Oh, yeah, easy for you to say. Like, you know, you've got. And I'm like, yeah, by the way, like, I started flatlined dead. That's where my story started, you know, and like, I had nothing. Zero. I think I looked at my credit, credit score like six months after I got sober and it was like a 300, you know, and I was just like, what do I do? But, you know, like, we all start somewhere. And I think this conversation is like, hey, what does that look like? You know, like, what does it look like? You could be 50, 60, 60 years, 70 years old and not feel like you've started yet. But guess what? Life is a 24 hour period of time. Yesterday's history. There's nothing you can do. And tomorrow, it's not always guaranteed, right? So, like, you got 24. Today's the day. It's just like, today's the day, you know? Like, you don't have to live. Whether. Whether it's drugs and alcohol, whether it's phone addiction, sex addiction, porn, whatever it is, like, there's a lot of things to distract us. There's a lot of ways out. There's a lot of ways to numb it. You know, we're strong people. We're human. I think it's like 1 in 10 billion or something like that. Odds of actually making it here as a human. You've already won, man. You know, I'm saying, like, you've won. You are winning. You're alive. Like, now. All you got to do is just, like, take a breath. Like.
- [59:08]
Flo
Dude, Simon Sinek has. I think he said it on a podcast. He said, what if you woke up every day and you lived life as if you've already won? And it like that, to me, hit me, because I'm, like, classic, like, achiever. I want to be the best at whatever I'm doing. Sports, school, everything. It's like, dude, like, when you look back, did you ever celebrate the successes you had along the way? And I think, like, if you wake up every day and you're like, dude, I've already won. Like, I've. I've. I'm living a great life. And maybe someone, you know, listening is, like, might not be there, but I think there are probably a decent amount of people who are just not happy, even though they've got a great setup. Finding that contentment of, like, dude, I've already got it really good right now. How do you know?
- [59:58]
Michael Chernow
You know, like, I really do think so. I'm. I'm about to buy the light phone 3. Have you heard of this thing?
- [60:05]
Flo
No, I have not.
- [60:06]
Michael Chernow
So The Light Phone 3, it's a. It's a. It's a dumb phone. Oh, so it's speaking my language. It's just like, a Kindle, so it doesn't have the blue light. And it's got a phone you can text, and it's got, like, a kind of keyboard like that. It's got a gps. It's got, like, an alarm. And I think you can. I think you can read a book on it and that's it. And sign me up. Yeah, yeah.
- [60:40]
Ryan
It was a brand partnership.
- [60:42]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm working on it. But, like, that. Like, that would be such A great story to like, you know. Unfortunately the phone is so damn expensive and the problem with the flip phone is that you like going back to like the texting like did like I don't want to do that. I'm not going that far. But this light phone thing is it, it like I just know it's going to change so much, right? Because the phone is such, it's the, it's, it is in my opinion it's the detriment of humankind. I just believe that at my core because like you said, every single time you open that thing, it makes you feel bad about where you're at. And it doesn't matter how far down the road you are in success, there's always going to be every fourth swipe someone who's just doing it better or at least looks like they're doing it better. You know what I'm saying? And you're just like damn man, like I'm in great shape. But that dude, that dude's in great shape. I got this. That you know what you've seen now.
- [61:51]
Brian
That rhyme stuff is all Photoshop and I've never seen the news.
- [61:53]
Ryan
Yeah, well that's why I hired it. This man's gifted.
- [61:59]
Michael Chernow
So you know, what a, what a, what a great combo, you know, Powerful. Yeah, it's awesome.
- [62:05]
Ryan
Huge reminders, dude. Yeah, I think that's, I think what I, what I'll end with personally is that I know I'll speak for myself and I believe this to be true of all men. But my potential, my God given potential is way too important to live life on snooze or to not wake up to that and chase it. And what we just talked about is distraction and this, this slow burn into just like wooing us to sleep. But if I knew the fraction of my true potential, oh buddy, I'd be up and at him. I wake up clear minded. I go about my business, I go about the most important things. The values, the priorities, my kids, my wife, you know, the most important levers of my life. And I would do that to the best of my ability. So I think as men, if we really did know a fraction more of our true potential, we would say yeah, this, this distraction is not worth it. That's the enemy of my potential or how I'm using this currently because I'm a big believer, this is a lot. This is a powerful tool for good as well. But if I'm not using it correctly, that's where I get hung up and I gotta always shift and kind of Recalibrate. So if you're listening, your potential is way too powerful to sleep on it. So wake up. Step into your greatness, Step into your potential and do it from a place of love. Because you get to share you with your world. You get to share who you are with the people you love the most. And what better gift can you give the world? We're all here for unique purpose, unique expressions of God. You get to be an answer to prayer for someone. You get to be the reason someone didn't choose to leave this life. You know what I'm saying? There's no doubt people in your life. So you get to be a part of something very special. So have the love and respect for yourself to take care of yourself. Start small 1% increments and just freaking keep growing and surround yourself with guys who remind you that.
- [64:07]
Michael Chernow
Couldn'T have said it better.
- [64:10]
Ryan
And we're honored bro. We're honored that you, you share space with us. I mean this is the same thing we talk about. You be the community you want to see. Like attracts like when you're doing things intentionally, when you're, when you're living from love, you attract the same thing. And you know, the best thing we did was just come together knowing we can change the world. Starting with our world and then we connect with like minded guys.
- [64:32]
Flo
You don't have to have a plan.
- [64:34]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [64:35]
Flo
Just gather. Come to the table.
- [64:38]
Michael Chernow
That's it man. Don't be afraid to like actually say how you feel, you know, like just don't be afraid. I think be get comfortable with being uncomfortable when it comes to sharing, you know? Boom. That's a wrap.
- [65:01]
Ryan
It's about time we came together like that boys.
- [65:03]
Brian
It's been a while.
- [65:04]
Ryan
Thanks for bringing us together.