Stand Back Up with Steven Borrelli | Cuts Founder on Entrepreneurship & Resilience

Summary

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Stand Back Up with Steven Borrelli | Cuts Founder on Entrepreneurship & Resilience

Podcast: Kreatures Of Habit
Host: Michael Chernow
Guest: Steven Borrelli (Founder, Cuts Clothing)
Date: August 20, 2025

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Overview

This deeply candid episode of the Kreatures Of Habit podcast centers around entrepreneurship, resilience, and the habits that sustain a founder through both success and adversity. Michael Chernow sits down with Steven Borrelli, founder of Cuts Clothing, who shares the inside story of building—and nearly losing—his business, lessons on leadership, the power of faith and taking risks, and actionable routines that anchor both his personal and professional life. With unfiltered insights, practical advice, and memorable anecdotes, this conversation is a masterclass in the gritty realities of building something meaningful.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Navigating Crises & Near-Death Business Experiences

• Early Success and Sudden Challenges:

  • Cuts saw explosive growth from 2018–2022, but rapid scaling led to taking on risky debt and overextending resources.
  • A banking crisis and predatory lending practices left the company at the brink of bankruptcy.
  • Detailed story of how the company almost went under and how Steven led them back.

• Learning Financial Discipline the Hard Way:

  • "We lost the discipline of what got us here. When we started, the first $10 million was with no full-time employees. But then we got access to $20 million in credit, and spent too freely."
    — Steven Borrelli [04:39]

• Slow Down and Focus—The Walks:

  • Steven's coping technique:
    "I go on long walks... right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot. Just try to make big problems really small."
    — [00:00]; [11:50]
  • Repeating this as a mantra helps him decompress and regain clarity under pressure.

• Transparency and Trust in Leadership:

  • During crises, Steven stresses open communication and showing the business numbers to all employees:
    "Being as transparent as possible...especially when things aren't going well, because no one wants to be bullshit."
    — [14:03]

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2. Resilience, Faith, and Surrendering Control

• Finding Meaning in Adversity:

  • "None of the books I read in entrepreneurship didn’t have near death experiences. This is just mine."
    — Steven Borrelli [00:00]
  • Experiences taught him perspective and the value of focusing on things within his control.

• Faith as a Source of Strength:

  • After another crisis—a 145% tariff leading to an effective business embargo—Steven fasted for 72 hours, deepened his faith, and penned a viral letter to President Trump.
  • "Sometimes in the biggest pain points you can find the biggest miracles... Through that experience, people saw my leadership in the moment... it just taught me, like, there's such a power in being able to surrender."
    — [15:07]

• On Taking Risk and Avoiding Regret:

  • Michael remarks:
    "Life is going to be uncomfortable no matter what. The decision you have to make is whether you want to take a risk or live with regret."
    — [24:20]

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3. Team, Culture, and Leadership Evolution

• Learning from Culture Mistakes:

  • Hired rapidly without vetting for DNA fit or cultural values, leading to misalignment and poor decisions (e.g., overextending product line for inclusivity at the expense of the brand’s identity).
  • "A great culture knows who we are as a business, and they protect it... They didn’t know who we are, and so they couldn’t protect it."
    — Steven Borrelli [39:19]; [41:16]

• Being Unapologetic About Brand Identity:

  • "You cannot be for everyone. When you try to be for everyone, you lose your way."
    — Michael Chernow [41:16]
  • Shared example of Creatures of Habit raising prices to preserve brand value.

• Influencer and Ambassador Selection:

  • Steven personally manages outreach to ensure all reps fit the Cuts ethos: athletic, aspirational, community-oriented—work, work out, go out.

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4. Health, Personal Habits, and Mental Resilience

• Daily Routines:

  • Steven’s current morning:
    • Lemon water with creatine
    • 1.5-mile faith walk (Christian music)
    • Gym session 6–7 am
    • Protein shake, work
    • Targets ~9 miles walking/20,000 steps per day ([32:18])
    • Uses walks not just for fitness but as creative and management time.

• Adapting Under Stress:

  • Under severe work stress, his health suffered (poor sleep, workouts, diet), but in facing later crises, he foregrounded health—proving its necessity for endurance.

• Sleep Challenges & Realizations:

  • Became obsessive about tracking sleep (Oura Ring), which worsened insomnia; the lesson:
    "Don’t think about sleep. Actually go to bed when you’re tired...I figured out what worked for me."
    — Steven Borrelli [53:44]

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5. Growth, Mentorship, and Looking Ahead

• Retail Expansion and Aspirations:

  • Plans to scale to more retail stores, inspired by brands like Vuori.
  • Deep pride in launching stores and tangible community-building.

• Peer Mentorship and Founders’ Network:

  • Steven values both muses (older CEOs like Vuori’s CEO Joe Kudla) and peers (founders of Blenders, Truff Sauce, etc.), often taking trips and sharing battle stories together.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Perspective During Hard Times:
  "I’m lucky. It’s a privilege to be in this. I signed up for this. I don’t want anyone feeling sorry for me...I’m not a victim."
  — Steven Borrelli [00:00], repeated [11:50]

• The Audacity of Entrepreneurship:
  "Coming up with an idea in your head that you think is gonna move thousands, potentially millions of people...that takes balls."
  — Michael Chernow [24:20]

• Culture & Authenticity:
  "Be unapologetic. That’s what I love about watching your stuff. You’re very unapologetic."
  — Steven Borrelli [43:23]

• On Surrender and Faith:
  "Complete surrender, like, I’m going to bust my ass. But God, I need you. I need you to have my back...there’s such a power in being able to surrender as...And it doesn’t mean not work hard, but it just means you’re okay with what the outcome is and it allows you to have peace."
  — Steven Borrelli [17:22]

• On Building Winning Momentum:
  "If you can control these little [wins] in the beginning of your day, the chances of you being ready to rock and roll and in unison with the rest of your team are just far greater."
  — Michael Chernow [67:22]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00] Steven’s “right foot, left foot” mantra for coping with stress
• [04:39] Near-business-failure, predatory loans, and founder lessons
• [11:27] How it feels to go from dreaming CEO to nightmare scenario
• [13:13] Leading through adversity, the importance of team
• [15:05] Cutting $350k–$500k/month in expenses; massive budgeting discipline
• [15:40] Dealing with sudden tariffs and policy risks; viral letter to President Trump
• [32:18] Steven’s morning routine and the power of intentional walks
• [39:20] Company culture mistakes, and the lesson of “protecting the DNA”
• [41:16] Michael on the necessity of NOT being for everyone
• [53:44] Steven’s candid experience with sleep obsession and practical advice
• [67:22] Michael’s philosophy on “winning” and daily momentum
• [72:01] Final thoughts on founder intuition, responsibility, and leading by example

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The Habits Question Segment (Rapid-Fire)

Steven Borrelli’s Three Most Transformative Habits:

1. Intentional Walking (movement for clarity and stress relief)
2. Radical Transparency (with team, daily business numbers)
3. Morning Faith Routine (lemon water + creatine + faith walk + gym)

One Habit Broken:

• Over-obsession with Sleep Tracking: Letting go of intense data obsession improved sleep and well-being.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a raw exploration of the heartbreaks and high points of entrepreneurship. Steven’s willingness to publicly take risks (from writing the president to being transparent with his team and audience), his emphasis on discipline and authenticity, and both speakers' belief in robust daily routines provide rich, practical lessons for anyone on the founder’s journey or seeking better habits and resilience.

Key takeaway:
No matter how high the stakes or how strong the setbacks, resilience is built on perspective, purposeful daily practices, and the courage to own your story and brand—unapologetically.

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Transcript

[Stephen Borelli]

And nothing was working. And then things were snowballing in the wrong way. And, you know, one of the things that I do to kind of get over the difficult business things is take one day at a time. And I go on long walks and there's a science behind just right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot. And just try to try to make big problems really small. Right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot. And that kind of de. Stresses me. And then I try to remember, like, the position that I am in. These are good problems to have. You know, lucky. I'm lucky. It's a privilege to be in this. I signed up for this. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me. Like, I hate that. I'm not a victim. I'll get over it. Like, remember where I'm at. And then, you know, you put your sneakers on and say, hey, let's go. And then I always try to think big picture. Like, none of the books I read in entrepreneurship didn't have near death experiences. This is just mine. And let's, let's, let's talk to my guys in here that ride with me. Who, who's in for this challenge? Let's go. And that's sort of the mindset I get to. But it doesn't mean I have those moments of like, I feel like crying where I'm just like, damn, damn. You know, that's what I feel inside. Like, just, damn, you know, but, you know, right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot.

[Michael Chernow]

I'm Michael Chernow and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast. Our habits will make us or break us. It's just that simple. I've lived on both sides of the tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing some of the most inspiring, motivating, and high performing humans I've encountered to share their daily habits, routines, and rituals that.

[Stephen Borelli]

Help them stay on top of their.

[Michael Chernow]

Game and ultimately happy. So sit back, relax, and pay attention, because what you hear over the next 30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life. Let's go. Are you going to build a billion dollar business?

[Stephen Borelli]

Our original goal as a business was to create a household million dollar brand. And I believe cuts could do that one day. I don't think we're that far away. A couple moves as we build out stores, I think we could, we could get that. But for like the exit strategy of the business, I think it would be one where, you know, we would get you know, 30%, sell 30% and kind of go. Go that route. So I could do it for a long time. I don't, I don't really see myself doing anything else right now. My vision is Cuts.

[Michael Chernow]

So creatively, as an entrepreneur, do you ever get an itch to do other things or is like. Or like, are you. I think there are two different types of entrepreneurs, right. They're the, the ones that like fixate on making a great business and evolving that business and recreating and re. Innovating within that four wall, if you want to call it four wall. And then there's the other entrepreneur who creates something really awesome, develops value, sells a piece. Creates something else. Does it? Develops value, sells a piece. Are you, are you seeing yourself sort of taking this thing for a long time?

[Stephen Borelli]

I think as long as cuts provides me with the most upside, I don't see myself doing something else. And if that ever were to change, I think then my attitude towards it could be more like that other, that other entrepreneur that would want to start something with the guys that I've grew up with now, now I'm more senior when I started the business when I was 26, so I, I definitely have that appetite eventually. I've invested in companies that have done really well. I love getting on the phone talking to other entrepreneurs like yourself. And so there is that side of it that I would love to do. But in terms of me operating a business, I think Cuts is definitely something that gets me the most excited to wake up every day and we've built something special and it's become so much of a passion project. As far as me, I think about it all the time. If that ever were to stop, I would go to do something else. But it hasn't yet.

[Michael Chernow]

So you founded cuts in 2018. So you guys are eight coming up on eight years. Right. I would imagine it hasn't been smooth sailing the whole way. Can you think back onto a failure that really rocked you that where you, where you actually thought like this could be the end?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah. So we, we went, we had incredible growth from 2018, 19, 20, 21 and 22. And. But one of the things that we didn't do good as a business was understand like the cost of capital. We had a credit facility with Ampla, they went bk, but it was an MCA loan where you get money in there attached to your Shopify account and they just take money. And on surface, if you don't really think it through and the businesses, everything's going well, it can be a great Quick way to get capital. And if you remember, in 21, people were handing out checks like left and right. We got to prove approved for like a $20 million line of credit in like hours like that morning. And we needed it. Then what happened was we, we got a two line and we got a huge line and we ordered too much inventory. So and the interest on it was like 14 and a half percent or something. And we kind of got addicted to that and that's what allowed us to grow. And, and we caused, we did, we, we lost the, the fiduciary, or maybe fiduciary is the wrong word, but we lost the discipline of like what got us here. When we started the business, we did our first 10 million with no full time employees. And then all of a sudden we had access to capital, 20 million. And we said, hey, let's go spend money on influencer marketing. Let's build out our team. We went to 60 employees, let's do all this stuff. And we were growing. But what was hidden underneath the balance sheet more or less was that our inventory position was growing more than our revenue was. And as a young CEO, I wasn't able to see the forest through the trees. And we had a young CFO at the time and we just, we weren't able to see our balance sheet and cash flow like we do now. And so eventually that caught up with us. And then at the same time, Ampla, they gave out too many faulty loans. And so one of their loans they gave was just a shell company and they lost X amount of money and Goldman had just funded them. And then Goldman said, hey, no, we're pulling the line. And then, so why? These loans are really predatory. I think they're going to be illegal in the state of New York soon is when that happened. They had a huge book, like hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars out to E comm companies. All of a sudden our line just started going down day by day. So our cash, because they essentially, if you get $10, they could stifle out $10 because it's attached to your Shopify account, right? So we had, luckily at that point we had worked the line down from where it was to like 7 million bucks. And we had a decent amount of cash in a different bank, but we had 7 million that was just going down per day. So when you're doing hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales and they're taking 100% of deposits. We were like about to be, you know, BK and they told us, you have until March 31st or August 31st. So. And at that time, no, no bank wanted to touch really E Com companies too because of this whole situation. We had a good P and L, but we still had a little bit too much inventory. And you know, we hadn't, we had never raised money so we didn't have extra capital. And so at that time, I had to pretty much go on a roadshow with not the best balance sheet, too much inventory and dealing with cash going out day by day. And it was like, I remember it happened in May and from May, June, July, August, it was just like me, you know, pitching the business to, to people to swap out the debt. And it was like a near death experience we had. I didn't pay myself for like almost four months. I, you know, we cut like so much expenses from the business and it, it really did teach us though like a different level of court of how to get rid of like corporate debt. And what I mean by corporate debt is like, you know, you have a, an extra password for Airtable or a, an extra login for Shopify. That's 1299. We look through every ounce of. Just to make our cash.

[Michael Chernow]

All that shit adds up.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, I mean it was. And we. When you have 60 employees, someone gets this, someone gets that, and all of a sudden you're like, you get to offices that's too big, you're spending a little too much on content, snacks in the office or 4k a month, you're cutting, you know, you start adding up, you're like, all right. So we were able to slash it and we were able to swap out the line. And then we had a smaller team and kind of things restable. But it was, it was really the discipline I needed as a CEO that I never got before. We started the business and we had immense success, like out of the gate. We had, you know, every athlete and celebrity wearing it. You know, we, we didn't have to raise money. I started it with $50,000 that I saved up. I was living at home, no full time employees at 10 million. And so we just thought like, hey, everything's going be up and to the right. But we didn't have that financial discipline to be a truly great company. So that was definitely one of the big ones I never want to go through again.

[Michael Chernow]

So let's just dig into that a little bit. I have a few questions. One, did Amplitude tell you that they were drawing 100% of sales?

[Stephen Borelli]

So it was the, when it was sort of like it was the same time Silicon Valley bank happened, like the credit crunch and what happens in situations like that. It's sort of like a run on the bank where like all of a sudden you hear, I'm getting calls from other brands. Hey, we, we don't have access to our line anymore. Stephen, what's going on with you? Um, and I'll leave the guy's name nameless, but, you know, he didn't tell us that. It was just like one day, all of a sudden, we couldn't get ahold of him. And boom, here's the situation. And I think to give them a little bit to not like, tarnish the name, they had a difficult situation too. Like, you know, they, they had a credit. They had the same thing happen to them that they were doing to us. So it's just one of those things that, like, business is business and I don't have any ill will, but it just sucks that that happened. And. But yeah, it was, it was. No. One day our CFO came in, he's like, hey, we, we can't purchase this po. And like, the cash we have in the bank, we gotta make that last until we get this done. Because all the new receipts, all the money that's coming in daily, that's going straight to pay off the loan.

[Michael Chernow]

So let's, let's, let's, let's cut into that. What does it feel like when you're at the helm of a business? First time CEO, you feel like things are going super well, and then all of a sudden your dream starts to look like a nightmare. Like, what does that feel like internally? Like, what, what goes through your mind?

[Stephen Borelli]

I was telling a buddy, sometimes it, it's like if you're going out to the ocean, like an analogy, and there's waves crashing down. In the early part of the business, it's like a lake where, like, you just go out and you can swim right out. But it just felt like I was just getting beaten down every day. Nothing was working.

[Michael Chernow]

Nothing was working before even this whole thing after, during.

[Stephen Borelli]

And it just felt like, man, I couldn't. Nothing was working, nothing was working. And then things were snowballing in the wrong way. Um, and you know, one of the things that I do to kind of get over the difficult business things is take one day at a time. And I go on long walks and there's a science behind just right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot. And just try to. Try to make big problems really small. Right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot. And that kind of de. Stresses me. And then I try to remember, like, the position that I am in. These are good problems to have, you know, lucky. I'm lucky. It's a privilege to be in this. I signed up for this. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me. Like, I hate that. I'm not a victim. I'll get over it. Like, remember where I'm at. And then, you know, you put your sneakers on and say, hey, let's go. And then I always try to think big picture. Like, none of the books I read in entrepreneurship didn't have near death experiences. This is just mine. And let's, let's, let's talk to my guys in here that ride with me. Hey, who's in for this challenge? Let's go. And that's sort of the mindset I get to. But it doesn't mean I have those moments of like, I feel like crying where I'm just like, damn, damn. You know, that. That's what I feel inside. Like, just, damn, you know, but, you know, right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot.

[Michael Chernow]

Team is important. Right team is important. And I think what I've learned, I mean, there's so much that I learned over my, my career as an entrepreneur, but I do believe that the people that you surround yourself with, even, even agencies, right? Like the people that you have to deal with and communicate with and hope that you can rely on when things, when things go down. Because things go down every day. Something.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Is sparking. There's always some little ember rolling if it's not a fucking full blown, you know, five alarm fire. So how, as a CEO of a super successful company, how have you changed when it comes to managing people?

[Stephen Borelli]

I. This is one area that I, as I get into the role of a CEO, and I've kind of looked back, I still feel like I have so much room to grow in this. Being as transparent as possible, I think is very important, especially when things aren't going well because no one wants to be bullshit. And so we have kind of a policy in the business where everyone can kind of see where the numbers are at. And it's just, you know, we know where we're at on a daily basis. And so I think that goes a long way that you can build trust when. And if you, if you can build trust, you can get over hard problems. So I think that's the core that I try to focus on. And then clear expectations. You know, when, when the tariffs hit, that was another, like, devastating thing that happened. We were, we had a solid plan going into the year. This was going to be the best year. We got our margin where we needed to be. We kind of. Because the previous year we had the credit crunch, we had a lower opex. So if we could grow the revenue and meet, it would just be.

[Michael Chernow]

How much did you mitigate in OPEX after that?

[Stephen Borelli]

Year over year, we cut 500k a month. Just a lot.

[Michael Chernow]

Wow.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, I mean, it was, it was a massive, like, riff, maybe, maybe a little lower than that. Like 350 to 500. Some months got higher. But we just got sharpened our pencil super tight and so that. So then coming out, I'm thinking, as a CEO, we're able to do that. If revenue can stay up or go up, boom, we're gonna have our best year ever. It's gonna be a lot of work for the people that are left. So we all need to hold hands and be like, is this the plan? Let's go. And then the tariffs hit and we lost 20 points of margin overnight. And we actually lost even more when it was 145%. So, you know, this wasn't my first rodeo of things not working. I had just dealt with the credit crunch the year before and you're like, damn. Yeah. I'm like, damn. Again, like, we had just got over it like nine months prior, had a good plan, cash was in a good spot. And then, boom, that happens. And then I remember I was also going through some stuff around my personal life and I was, I'm a Christian and my faith is super important to me. I was like, you know, I'm going to go on a fast. So I went on a 72 hour fast and just got close with the Lord and was just like, man, I can't believe I have to deal with this, something like this again. And it was, it was just, it was maybe one of the more difficult times because the 145% was like an embargo. We couldn't import anything. Plus, at that time, it was. There was no business at 145%. It was, it was over, you know, and so I did it fast. And I wrote a letter to President Trump on Twitter. I read that and it went viral. And to the Trump team's credit, and I was a Trump supporter, I had voted for him for many years. And I had seeded a lot of the guys that were on his, like the younger guys, the video guys on his team. So I knew they would see it. And like, long story short, I ended up meeting with Secretary Bessant in Beverly Hills. I think they really listened to us. And then two weeks later, they gave us that 90 day pause and we had, we had enough time to get our units over to Vietnam. And still, still a huge blow to the business for this year. It's going to, you know, it's going to suck. You know, you look at four or five million dollars tariff cost that we didn't have, which sucks, but, you know, we're able to survive and, you know, next year is going to be the best year ever. So just those things. And I think, like, sometimes in the biggest pain points you can find, like the biggest miracles and just, you know, a lot of things happen. I got, right after that I was on this week's startups and I was on cnn, kind of went on this press tour. Those opened up doors because we needed to do a little fundraising. For the first time ever, I got a, you know, pretty much like I got the money we needed in a snap of the fingers. Through that experience, people saw my leadership in the moment and it turned out to be there was like God's hand of blessing on it. And I think, like, sometimes as entrepreneurs, you, you see, you try to control things and you try to hold things super tight. Like, I need to figure out how to do this. In that moment, it was just like complete surrender, like, I'm going to bust my ass. But God, I need you. I need you. I need you to have my back. And I think through that it just taught me, like, there's such a power in being able to surrender as. And it doesn't mean not work hard, but it just means, like, you're okay with what the outcome is and it allows you to have peace. And that's what I really learned in that process. And I think I'm a better man for it and, you know, better CEO.

[Michael Chernow]

Has God always been a big part of your life?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, I grew up, my mom and dad still, you know, married 30, 30 something years. And I've just seen how their relationship has been so solid and it's always been super important to me.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

God wasn't always a big part of my life, but when the going got really tough, the going got tougher, but life got better, you know?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Interesting how that works out.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

When you have like, faith.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah. For this year, it's really been like, awesome. Like, we, one of the stories we, we were looking for fundraising kind of when the credit happened and I went to Blackstone and one of the, one of the junior associates came by our store opening. We had A huge line here in the West Village. And he. He got. I won't say it out loud, but he was like, hey, what revenue are? And he thought we had an extra zero on it. And so they had us up. They had us like, big lunch in there. And I'll never forget, when we go into the meeting, I kind of say the revenue number, and she kind of, like, just puts her pen down. Like, her pen falls out of her hand. Because they thought. I mean, they thought we were like in the 500 million range, essentially, or even. Or even bigger, like 600, because he. He misinterpreted. And it was just a fun day. Our line, Mario on over was there. I could see how he just got wrapped up in it, like, oh, this. This is the next big thing. We gotta. We gotta bring him in. And I'll never. And it was just one of those moments like. Like, ah, shit. Ah, damn. Like, we were so, so stoked to go. Go into their office. But then when this happened, one of our investors, he DM'd me. And it was like, on the hidden, you know, on your DMs, it's like, hidden. And I honestly thought it was a joke and, you know, we needed it. And I was like, all right, I'll take this meeting. Like this. This looks like a joke, but, you know, went down to his office and then it happened, like, in a day. So, like, when. When God works, it can. It can just happen quick. And sometimes when you try so hard and you're working so hard as entrepreneur, you're working. One day after another, you're working and things aren't going your way. Sometimes it's good just to take a step back and just let it. Like, you can only work so hard and kind of like. Like, see, like, open your heart to surrender and then see what can happen. And I think that's. That's when, like, things can just shock you. Like a hidden dm. We got, you know, some money this way. It's like, almost like, unbelievable.

[Michael Chernow]

What is celebrating a win look like for you?

[Stephen Borelli]

I love playing golf, hang out with my friends and family. You know, I love working. I love cuts. Like, I love showing up to work every day and spending time with my friends and family. But I went on a Europe trip recently with some friends, some My guy friends, and we went out there. That was a lot of fun. I think if I had to pick my ideal, like, vacation day, friends and family, Amalfi coast on a boat, cheese platter, some glasses of wine out out there, like, like the Water's so clear you can see to the bottom. Like Will Smith song, you know, that's like my perfect, perfect day.

[Michael Chernow]

Have you had that?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, yeah, a couple times. Or south of France somewhere where you're like, there isn't rock, it isn't rocky, because I get a little ocean sickness. And just like, I don't need many of those days, though. Like, after one or two of those, I'm like, let's get. Let's get out of here. But just like, that's, that's my, my. That's what it's celebrating looks like.

[Michael Chernow]

Have there been moments throughout building cuts where you've forgotten about yourself? Or do you keep yourself? Do you keep your. Your health and your wellness? And I mean, I know that that's something that you are passionate about. Is that something that you prioritize no matter what or when things get hard, do you forget about it a bit?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah. I mean, I think when the credit crunch, that first one, that was the first time, like, it was weird. I couldn't sleep that well. And I, like, wasn't when I would go to the gym every morning because I have to go. But the workouts were really shitty, just not good. And I was getting like my. And then my diet, I wasn't as focused much on my diet just. Cause like, my brain was so focused on just accomplishing that one thing. But through that process, it just, I just realized, I look back, I'm like, man, I was so unhealthy then. And then when the second one happened, I was much more healthy when that helped and made sure to go on long runs, worked out in the morning. If anything, my diet got even better during that process because I knew how important it was. And so, yeah, I would say at times I do. But again, like, I'm not one of those guys that like, needs to focus on his mental health and all of that. Like, I think I agree mental health is really important, but I think in today's society, at times it can. It can get like, it stems from a little bit of like a victim mentality and not having just a perspective on what we actually get to do and live as, as founders. So like, founders, if you signed up for the job. I hate seeing founders or people that have made money complain about that stuff. You got to have perspect. What we get to do every day is like a one in a lifetime thing. Especially if you've made money. Like, have. Have some perspective and go start your other thing. If you, if you're sitting at home and Tired. And. And. And you don't know what your life's purpose is. Like, have a little perspective, you know, it's so interesting.

[Michael Chernow]

I. I just finished a conversation, and it really. What. What this guy said was just so. It made. It was so profound. And basically he said, you know, it's gonna be uncomfortable no matter what life. It's going to be uncomfortable no matter what. The decision you have to make is whether you want to take a risk or live with a regret, right? And I was like, that was. I mean, that's it, right? Like, what do you want to do? Do you want to end up at the end of it all saying, man, I wish I could have. I should have. Man, it would have been so great if I would have just taken that step or I did all the shit I said I was gonna do. Some won, some lost, right? And I think that's what the mindset that you're talking about, which is like, if you are a founder, if you are an aspiring founder, but if you are a founder, win or lose, it's a privilege because you've taken a step that most people, nine out of 10, just don't have the gusto to go for, right? Like, the coolest shit in the world is. And also, I think, the most audacious in the world. Right? Like, when you. When you. Well, let me finish that statement. Coming up with an idea in your head that you think is gonna move thousands, potentially millions of people to just hand you money for an idea, you could be sitting in a chair and have this idea, thinking that that idea is going to ultimately manifest millions of dollars. That's audacious. That takes balls. Yeah, right? Like, it just does. And people do it, and it's incredible. And a lot of them don't make it. But I look at things that I've done, things that lots of friends of mine done, things that you've done, and I find it so inspiring to just see people that have this audacity and with optimism and positivity and inspiring other people to fucking rally around this thing and want to bring it to the finish line and just carry it up like that and be so stoked to bring something from a thought to reality in life. Like, it's incredible. It's incredible. You know, the fact that you sat down and wrote a letter to the President of the United States, I mean, dude, that's wild. And it actually.

[Stephen Borelli]

And the crazy part is I got confirmation that jd, Secretary Besant and Trump, one of them showed the letter to him of like, hey, this 145 can't stay for that much longer. It's going to kill businesses every day. And so that was cool that he, I know. I got confirmation. He saw it.

[Michael Chernow]

Dude, you had the balls to sit down and write a letter and share your experience that you, that you are currently going through. You wrote, you wrote a letter to the most powerful man definitely in our country, but potentially on the planet Earth, and it made it to him.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah. That is crazy. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And then, and then, yeah, and then there was a 90 day pause. So like you could, you know, arguably that could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. It could have been one of the few straws that broke the camel's back. But like, I just. The mindset that one has to be able to think that they can do something, take a big ask risk, put yourself on the line.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, I got destroyed by that post, I'm sure.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, but you put yourself out there and you said, hey, like, if this doesn't change, we're dead. Telling the world everybody knows cuts that you're gonna, that you're dead if it doesn't change. You just said, I'm going out. I'm putting myself out there. And it worked, dude.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, it was, it was, it was.

[Michael Chernow]

So what was the backlash like on that?

[Stephen Borelli]

It was kind of backlash from the right and the left. So the left was like, because I said, I said, I said it from a state of being very respectful towards the president. Hey, I voted for you. I want to make America great. I agree with a lot of your policies, essentially, but this one, it's going to, it's one going to hurt American jobs to the way in which it's implemented. We just need more time. If you said, hey, a year from now, it's going to happen. We have time to adjust as businesses. But if it's just all of a sudden the next day, your P and L looks like complete garbage, that's unfortunate for American people. And cuts is the American dream. You know, we bootstrapped a business, we employ a ton of people, and we are the modern day American dream. And don't kill that to solve a different problem. And the left was, hey, this is who you voted for. Like, I went, the leopard eats your face, whatever that means. I got on like some crazy Reddit thing and it was like thousands and thousands of comments. And then the right was like, you shouldn't have made your stuff in China. But that's where the genius of it was a little bit And I think for the most part though, people in the game were like, he gets it. There's nothing wrong with the tweet. Even if you didn't like that I voted for Trump. They were like, that was a really respectful way to approach a difficult situation. You're not bashing him, you're not trying to, you know, or you're not unrelenting supporting them. You know, I think you don't see this on the left. On the left, they never argue with their guy. I think that's what I like about the right. If they don't like something, they're not afraid to say it. And so I wasn't afraid to say, hey, I voted for you, but I don't like this. And so that's where like the, the virality, I think, came to interrupting this.

[Michael Chernow]

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[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, I mean I'm such a routine guy. Like right now I've been traveling and going to wholesale shows and stuff. And I hate not being on my routine, but I'm a big walker. I live near Manhattan beach, and I wake up, have my lemon water to start, and then my creatine. I put my creatine in my, like, lemon water. Just said it's like the flavorless kind. That's how I start my day. I do a mile and a half walk, put on like, some Christian music, and just kind of right foot, left foot. That's usually like 5:15 to 5:30. Then when I get back, I'll go to the gym six to seven, and then come back to the spot, have my protein shake, and then go to work after that.

[Michael Chernow]

Got it. And has that been the routine for a long time?

[Stephen Borelli]

More or less. The walking part, I've recently added because it's just been. I try to walk like nine miles a day.

[Michael Chernow]

So what does that equate to in steps?

[Stephen Borelli]

Typically, I think it's close to 20,000 steps because I do, like in the mornings, like a mile and a half and then. Or even three sometimes. Then my normal workday, just being in the office, it's like two. And then after work, you know, sometimes I'll walk like three or four miles.

[Michael Chernow]

Do you. So in those sort of intentional walks outside of the first one in the morning where you're listening to faith music, do you have. Do you work while you're walking on calls and whatnot?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, if I got a long call, I'll leave. Even during work, I'll always try to take it because if it doesn't need to be on zoom, I'll try to take it walking. I think I. I'm. I do better thinking while I'm moving, and I'm more. I'm more in it with them. Even on a zoom, your phone's there, your email pops up on Google, you're kind of like dozing away. So if it's a. If it's a team member and it doesn't need to be on zoom, because we're not looking anything and I'm just providing my input, or we're thinking about an idea. Right foot, left foot. And my brain just gets in a good flow. Right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot.

[Michael Chernow]

You know what I find to be so interesting and it's almost ridiculous, and it's so new, Only in the last five years, people look at me sideways and I'm like, just call me. Let's get on a call. Because I could be out walking, because that's what I do. And my whole team knows too. Like, hey, I'm not showing up on a zoom. Because, like, it's a zoom, you know? Like, if I could be out walking and talking, why would I be sitting in front of my computer to see your. Like, it's, it's not that I don't want to see you. I'd love to see you. But, like, at the end of the day, up until 2020, it was all calls. Yeah, it was all calls. That's what it was. It was. You got a conference line, everybody dialed in, and that's how business was conducted. Right. Like, people are offended if somebody hops on a Zoom or a Google Meet or Microsoft Teams, whatever it is, and their screens off. And I sometimes would have to say in the beginning of a call, hey, everybody, just want to let you know I'm out walking. Don't be offended that my screen is off. It's insane, right? It's insane. And so the whole team knows that they. I'm more than happy for everybody to take. We use Google Meet. Take as many Google Meets as you want, but I am going to be walking, you know, and I give them the full opportunity to do that as well. Like, do you find the virtual meeting culture to be a hindrance?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, I can't stand it, to be honest. Like, it's hard to compete in E comm and not have work from home. But if it was. If it was, it is up to me. But it is harder in Los Angeles to compete with good talent if you don't have some level of work from home. Because a lot of E comms don't have an office nowadays. And I think there's a power of being in, like, when we're in the office, 100%. But if we're at home and to your point, and like, we're all on zoom and there's no. We're not looking at something, there is a negative stigma if you're, if you're not there. My one suggestion or to the team members is don't be distracted. Like, you can be distracted if you're on a zoom. You can be distracted. Like, we had this one girl, she was like in her car after a yoga class. Her head's not in it at that moment. So, like, when I'm walking, my head is actually more in it.

[Michael Chernow]

Totally. And if you're not going to be on the call, it's not because you're doing emails. Right? Like that. We have a weekly team call where it's a big. It's a big state of the union every Week. Everybody's there is on zoom. But for like a morning stand up with my ea, I'm not on a zoom. You know, and for like an ops check in, it's not necessary that we're all on a zoom. And I do think that there is, you know, coming from the world of restaurants, I mean, I, I spent 12 to 39 years old, I was in the restaurant business. Right. And I mean, I didn't start opening restaurants Till I was 28, but I was like as boots on the ground as you can get. Right hand to hand. Combat was my, was my thing. And so culture is such a humongous part of that. I mean, it's just such a huge part of the world of restaurants. And the reason why so many restaurants fail is because so many restaurateurs don't understand how important that internal culture is. It's the most important thing. How your staff shows up to work is going to be the success or demise of your business. And so. And it's different in the world of E Comm. Not that culture's not necessary and a big deal, but, you know, it's different in a brick and mortar business totally. Where you have to interact with customers on a minute by minute basis. And so going into D2C for me was just super difficult. Yeah, super difficult because culture has been my thing. Culture is like at both the meatball shop and at Seymour's, I was the CEO, but I was really the cco, which is the chief Culture officer. Yeah, I, you know, people call me the culture cowboy. Like, that's kind of how I walk through it, right? Because I believe that you can get through anything with the right culture. You know what I'm saying? Like, you just can. And so when it comes to culture for you, how important is culture? And if you had to describe culture at cuts, like, what do you. How would you describe it?

[Stephen Borelli]

So we've, we've gone through a couple different phases of good and bad culture. Maybe I'll start with the bad one because I think there's maybe a little bit more my kind of lessons. But in 2020, 21, and remember, 2021 was like heightened political stuff. There was riots and stuff. So as a CEO, you had a lot to deal with back then. And we were again, we were three or four years in growing like crazy and we were just hiring 60 people. We had. And I even let people. This is a mistake. Get higher on their teams without me approving it, which is one of the. A huge mistake. I wouldn't do that. Again, I would say I could hire 100 people and then after that, you know, maybe I would delegate, but I have plenty of time to make sure those get right. And we, we were launching women's or thinking about doing women's, and we were going to do a full length tee, a crop tee. And we had this group of, you know, females on our team that were really like, about, like, body exclusive inclusivity. And that was like height of that kind of era. And, you know, Cuts is a very slender workout, you know, modern type brand. And the team at the time was like, hey, we need double XL cropped women's tees and we need to, we need to make sure we offer all the bigger sizes. And I was like, you know what? Yeah, let's go for, for it. And we placed our order and then like, we still have some of that inventory. It's just we've gotten through, we've liquidated it. But it was, it was kind of a huge mistake in culture, though, because the people we brought in didn't know the DNA of Cuts. So I think a great culture knows who we are as a business and they, they protect it. And that was the biggest lesson there. They didn't know who we are, and so they couldn't protect it. And really that whole situation was my fault because I didn't set those expectations clearly enough. And we had to make some changes after that and go on. But I think, yeah, it was just such a good lesson of, you know, does everyone in here know who we are and what we represent and are they willing to protect it? And that's.

[Michael Chernow]

I just want to make a comment on that, which I think is really important for everybody. Listening to here is, you know, the fact of the matter is you cannot be for everyone. You just can't. And I think when you try to be for everyone, you lose your way because, you know, if you are trying to please every single person. I remember when we first launched Creatures of Habit, you know, it's a $5 pouch of oatmeal.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, right.

[Michael Chernow]

I mean, it's just, It's a fact. $5 pouch of oatmeal, you buy Quaker instant oats. It's like 40 cents a pouch. So it's, it's a lot more money. Right. I got hammered, just beaten up to death by people that were like, you, how selfish, how rude, how rude are you to try to charge $5 for a pouch packet of overnight oats? What are you crazy? And my mind, my brain went like, oh, my God, what am I Gonna do. And our CFO at the time, who. Super smart guy, he's like, I know what we're gonna do. We're gonna make it more expensive. And I was like, I love it. Huh? And he's like, we're a premium brand, Mike. Like, we're a premium brand. We put in really great ingredients. It's optimized. It's fucking good. You're gonna let somebody who's comparing you to Quaker instant oats scare you and make you feel like you're doing something wrong? Make it more expensive. And we did, and everything changed.

[Stephen Borelli]

That's great.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, I love.

[Stephen Borelli]

I love.

[Michael Chernow]

But that's what. When you say. When you say it's great, know who you are, and they'll protect it. That's exactly what he did.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, he protected it. He protected You.

[Michael Chernow]

Protected it like a. Like. Like he was ready to fight, you know, he's like, this is who we are. This is who we are.

[Stephen Borelli]

Be unapologetic. And that's what I love about watching your stuff. You're very unapologetic.

[Michael Chernow]

Well, I think that's what people resonate with, right? That authenticity. Like people used to. You know, I talk about God a lot.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And, you know, some people are like, unfollow. I'm like, great.

[Stephen Borelli]

This isn't for you. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

I mean, I don't know what to tell you. Right. Like, this is who I am. This is what I believe. Right. Like, you talk about. You vote for Trump. So I'm sure some people, if not a lot of people, were like, unfollow.

[Stephen Borelli]

We got death threats. We got. I mean, it was never buying cuts again. But, you know, at the same time, I think it ignited, like, the Steven Borelli and the cuts fans. Like. Like, I was golfing, or I was sitting in Manhattan beach at dinner, and this guy goes, hey, I just. I gotta stop you. I saw the interview, and I watched all your stuff. Like, that took major cojones. He worked at Oakley, this guy, and he sent our whole team a bunch of cuts. He's like, we just. As a team, we want to just say, just give you guys support. And then, like, I was like. It was like one of these moments, like, I got. Like, I got you, bro. To me, it's like, that's the sign of a good brand when you find those people like that. Who cares what the critics are?

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, dude, we. You know, Lance Armstrong has invested. He's been supportive since the day. You know, he's been like this. He's become a really great Friend of mine, and he's. And he. And he really believes in what we're doing, even though he fucking hates oatmeal. He says he's like, I hate oatmeal, but I eat this shit because it's great fuel. But, you know, he's like, I'm supporting what they're doing, you know, and we've just gotten so many people being like, lance is a cheater. Fuck you. Never ordering again. And I'm like, great, great. You know, like, who did you say that for? Like, what comment was that comment for? Like, who did you say it for? For everybody else that's gonna read it or for? Was it. Do you really believe that? Like, what was it for who? And honestly, like, nobody cares what you actually think, you know, And I think that that's kind of like, I don't obviously feed into that stuff, right? I'm not going to be like, nobody cares, like, in the comments, but I do think I love that idea of, like, hey, like, culture, first step, know who you're bringing into the team and make sure that those people know who the. What the team is all about. Like, understand the DNA, right? And it's not about the core values that are written up on the wall in the lobby, right?

[Stephen Borelli]

It's like, hey, so much more than that, because people can misinterpret those which we've had before.

[Michael Chernow]

So, okay, so that. So that. That was a moment of culture that you. That you weren't the most proud of. What about culture now?

[Stephen Borelli]

What does it feel like going on to who we bring on as community members on our external team, like, our influencers and things like that? Going back to that situation in the early part of the days of cuts, I would DM like minor league baseball players that I thought would be people that could be a cuts DNA person. You know, as Tyler Wade on the Yankees, Clint Frazier, Walker Bueller, guys that were, like, athletic guys, but also had style, that had other things going for him that invested good family man, all of that. And we created, like, a cult, like, kind of athlete group that they would reach out to us. And that became kind of how we got our name. Then as the business grew, we delegated and we started reaching out to, you know, you know, people that didn't make sense. And now when we go back into it, one of the things I'm really proud of is me and our VP of marketing, Brennan, are we understand where, like, the pivot points of the business are, where the pressure points, and we undervalued that. Like later in the business because we had done it so well. But now moving forward, me and him. Okay, every person still, because me and him just know, hey, is this a cuts person? Is this someone we want to invest in? And the roster of guys and girls that we have going into like 25 and 26 is, I think, is some of the most strong people. Plus, they're also more into that creator space that's kind of been a little bit more viral over the last, like, 18 months. And so we're really getting a solid group of guys and girls that work, work out and go out. And that's sort of like the. The cuts. That's what represents the sport of business, and that's. That's the clothing that we provide. So I. I work, work out and go out. Yeah. You know, and it's all three, really. And, you know, it's not just work. You know, every. All of our guys work out and they. And they're social, they like to have fun, and they're going out isn't necessarily rooted around like alcohol or that can be a part of it, but it's just like they're social guys and they like to be with their community.

[Michael Chernow]

Where is cuts in five years?

[Stephen Borelli]

Well, I get really excited about our retail aspirations. You know, when we launched our store in New York, we had Mariano Rivera open it. I was a longtime Yankee fan, and he's become a good friend of mine.

[Michael Chernow]

Love one. I love that guy.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, he's just. He's the most classy guy. He called. He called me the other day for shirts and, you know, a lot of. Sometimes I see. Call, hey, send me shirts. Okay, bye. You know, he was asking, you know, about my personal life, what's going on, how's the business, really cares. And the way he signs his signature, too, is. It's like he goes like one swerve at a time. Like every one time we've had, we did a giveaway. And just the attention to detail, it just shows how good of a guy he is, you know, you know, some guys that kind of just do this. But launching retail stores. We're opening a one up in Nevada, Nashville, connecting with more of our ambassadors in our community. I would love to. That gets me really excited is seeing cuts in the physical world moving forward, which. Which, you know, I think is going to be one good for the business because we have great product and it's better in person. And that's.

[Michael Chernow]

How many stores now?

[Stephen Borelli]

Just. Just two. So another five. So seven. I think that will happen in the next Year and a half. So in five years I think we could. I would love to have like a Vuori type of like Escape Velocity. They, they did a lot of things right over the years with wholesale retail and online. They had great fabric platforms and they're, they're, I think one of the better brands out there. That would be the.

[Michael Chernow]

So is that like a muse for you?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah. Joe, I think is a great CEO. I think he's, he's done a lot right. Actually. We were at the same hotel and we were, he was in the Cold Plunge and I was in the sauna in San Diego and I got to talk to him for a little bit and that, that was cool. But yeah, he's. They do a lot, a lot of good stuff.

[Michael Chernow]

How important is it for you as a CEO to have other CEOs that you kind of aspire to that you believe have done a really, really great job and you'd like to emulate some of their stuff?

[Stephen Borelli]

It's how I built cuts. I mean when we started the business, Jake Casson did movement watches and I was their little brother. I was 25, I call it year 0a and 0b where we are pre revenue. I had an idea. I would just show up at the movement office and just say, hey, teach me Facebook ads. And I would go in there and he would teach me Facebook ads. I had no product or no idea at the time, but if it wasn't for him, there's no way I would have had the reference point to be able to start cuts. So that's why like Joe for me is a good reference point to kind of understand how they've made their moves from the way they develop product and they really focus on great fabrics to doing wholesale and retail really well, doing small 1200 foot square foot stores that you prove the model low risk on opex. You're not going to get burned by them. And now their stores are 4 or 5,000 square feet and just understand and a lot of it's public. You can read all their information online and if you have the intuitiveness to look through things, all the reference points out there. And I met him once, we're not even that good of friends, so it's important. And then also too like for me and you, I hope we can go to grab a drink or do something soon and. Or you don't drink. Yeah, yeah, grab. Or grab a, grab a coffee, a Pellegrino or something. Yeah, yeah, totally. And like a lot of my buddies, like when we went to Europe recently was The Blenders founder, the Truff Sauce founder. And we all were like, hey, let's, let's, let's go to Greece. So we just did a kind of like a founder trip. And. And they're like, kind of in my. Joe is probably kind of like above my, like older in age and been in the game longer. He's like more of a muse. These guys are like my peers, so they're going through a lot of the stuff I'm going through. And we kind of joke with each other. I think it's so important. So important.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, dude. I want to finish up with a question that, I mean, I always like to. You know, I find sleep to be one of the most important components to success. Happiness, the ability to provide for my family, but also obviously for my business. Sleep is so critical and crucial and so much. So many of us don't prioritize sleep and kind of like allow sleep to just happen as opposed to like making it like, you know, I think it's so important to have like the go bed. The go to bed alarm way more than the wake up alarm. What do you do for wind down? Do you have a wind down?

[Stephen Borelli]

I'm probably. I'm not. I. This is something that I've struggled with my entire life. Like, even in the frat days when I was 19, I was the guy that would wake up early. I just couldn't sleep that well. I have. This is a theory. I have really high T naturally. My dad's 60 and he's got like almost a 950 testosterone. So we have that in the Borrelli family. And so I have a high motor and I prioritize sleep the best I can. But I had an oura ring and I would. I made. I got obsessive about it. Like, I do everything in business and I end up getting. I end up having the worst sleep I've ever had. I had so bad. I got insomnia. I had to get a sleep coach. All because of the Oura ring. And she was. Because I was.

[Michael Chernow]

Because you were fighting so hard to get good scores.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yes. And to this day, I never got better than 85. I never got better than 85. And I would get my room temperature down. Black lights, mask, no phone. I did all of it. But it was like the mental aspect of trying too hard versus the way I get good sleep now. And this is maybe counter to like a lot of advice is I just go to bed when I'm tired. So if I'm not tired, I don't go to bed no matter what time it is, if my motor's too high, like if, if I have a late, let's say I go, I'm at the office till 7:38. I don't try to go to bed at 9:30 which is like my go to bedtime between 9 and 9:30 because my motor isn't down. What was happening was with the oura ring I would get home at 7, try to eat food and try to get off my phone and try to wind down by nine. But I didn't have that process to wind down. And so I would end up being in bed, eyes shut, just my mind just going and then it was over. From there I would be up till 7am it was over. Like I could not. I would have anxiety about not having sleep. And it just like, I remember it was like, it was like middle of 23 that I just had the worst sleep. There would be two days a week that I would be like crippled where I would not get any sleep. And it like ruined my life, the oura ring did. So I think that's unique to me. I'm just kind of like that. But I figured out what worked for me, which is don't think about sleep. Actually go to bed when you're tired. And the prerequisite of that is no phone before bed. Keep your room cold, don't eat too close to bed, meditate before. Like I'll read my Bible or listen to, try not to watch tv. So I do all this, the good stuff, but I don't stress about it. So that's, that's me. What about you? Curious?

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. I mean so my wind down routine is. It's pretty simple. I mean it's the same. I've been doing the same exact thing pretty much. Well, definitely since we've moved upstate, which is either my wife or I put our kids down. We got two sons. So we put our sons down. Typically bring them upstairs at around 7:45 and it takes about a half an hour to put them down between brushing teeth and getting them, you know, singing songs and stuff. And then typically Donna will come down or I'll come down and we watch a Show until about 9, 9:15. As soon as that show starts, I make myself a creature sleep. I use creature sleep every single night. It's just a really nice way for me to just sort of start to relax and wind down. And at about 9:15 typically I'll head upstairs. AC is on, room is cool, blackout shades. I use the eight sleep mattress. So that's that really? I gotta say, like I don't work with eight sleep. I have no connection to them outside of the fact that like it actually works. Like I like my wife hates the cold so I can't get the room as cold as I'd like to get it. So the eight sleep mattress allows us to have different temperatures on different sides. So I do that. You know, I'm kind of a nut. But like I really do prioritize sleep sleep. So I wear a sleep mask. And then most recently I actually I have this.

[Stephen Borelli]

I need to try that. The tape?

[Michael Chernow]

No, I don't use the tape. The tape didn't work really well for me. But I have a mouth like this mouthpiece that airwave makes that has been unbelievable for like truly, truly.

[Stephen Borelli]

Send me the link. I want to try that.

[Michael Chernow]

Okay. It's true it's not comfortable in the beginning, but basically what it does is it keeps your tongue up kind of like this. So like it just, there's, I don't know the actual science behind it, but it has truly enhanced my sleep. But before, before that, when I get into bed, I always love to read for about 15 to 20 minutes. Reading really puts me in that like no matter how good the book is, no matter how intense it is, like I love to get, I try to get 10 pages in before bed. Most nights I don't because I'm just like ready because it just knocks me out. And then I always go to sleep with one AirPod and most people will tell me you're crazy, but I do the noise canceling. Well, I go to sleep with one AirPod and then I typically read, I listen to like a really, really long book.

[Stephen Borelli]

I'm gonna try that.

[Michael Chernow]

So I and I put it on 15 minute timer and you know like I just finished Sapiens, right. I don't, haven't retained most of it, but it's great. It really just helps me fall asleep. And typically when that airpod goes in and I put my head down, I am asleep. I don't know, maybe a minute and a half.

[Stephen Borelli]

Can you tell me your morning routine?

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, I can. So it's a great question because I just went back to a my. So I've been building this routine for a long time, right? For about three to four months. I decided in the spring. I said, you know what man, you've been doing this really and intense structured routine for a long time. We're going to take a break, we're going to sleep until 6. Do your non negotiables. For me, prayer is just a massive part of my morning. So I pray every single morning. I brush my teeth, I wash my face, I have a skincare thing, I have an oral care routine. I pray right after I pray, I do my push ups, I stretch, and for three to four months, then I'll go hydrate. But for three to four months, I just finished it there. I said, that's what I'm going to do. And then I'm going to wait for my wife and kids. I'll open up a book or maybe I'll pull out a journal, maybe I'll write some stuff down, but I'll just wait for them to wake up and come down. And I started to feel a little squirrely. And so about a week and a half ago, I said, you know what, we just got back from Europe. I was like, I'm going to go back to my way more structured routine and I'm gonna say what that is now. But I also want to make a mention that, like, it's not for everybody. I don't hang my fucking hat on this thing. I do it because the fact of the matter is for a guy like me who's in recovery, who is just a bit obsessive and I just, I like to optimize. It really, really, really makes a big difference in my day. So I do all that stuff. I wake up at around 5, 5:15 depending on what time I go to bed, other than 9:15, 9:30. But I wake up around 5, 5:15. I go downstairs, brush my teeth, floss my teeth, use this oral care thing. I whatever, tongue scrape. I learned all that from Dr. Jonathan Levine, who I had on the podcast, who was very, very, very adamant about oral care being like super important for just overall care. So oral care is a big one. I have a skincare thing that I do and then I pray and I pray for about five.

[Stephen Borelli]

Do you have a prayer list that you have every day that is kind of the same or is it new stuff?

[Michael Chernow]

I've prayed. I've had the same prayer for over 20 years, but I actually just recently made a little change to my prayer. I used to, to say as part of my prayer, God, please help to remove my fears, my insecurities, my character defects, my character assassinations, my wrong thinking. I'm not rationalizing, please allow me to be of service today. And those were the things that I asked God to help remove from me. I recently shared my prayer with a friend who I deeply respect. And he said, you know man, I understand why you would Ask God to help remove those things for you. But he was like, you, you're asking him, you're bringing negativity into your prayer in the morning.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, why wouldn't you say instead of God, help remove these things? Why wouldn't you say, hey, God, can you please bring optimism and joy and happiness and love and light and guidance and support and confidence and courage? Like, why wouldn't you say those things as opposed to like the bad things that you want to get rid of?

[Stephen Borelli]

I like that.

[Michael Chernow]

And I was like, all right, so boom, flip flop that. So that's the newest addition. But I pray for a lot of people. So the brunt of my prayer is I individually name people that I love and I care about and maybe even who I'm struggling with. So that's sort of the back half of my prayer. And then I do as many push ups as I can in the morning. I'm at about 76 push ups right now.

[Stephen Borelli]

Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

So I bang out as many push ups as I can and then I do. And I did. It was 60 for a long time where I just did 60 push ups and I just stop. And now I just said, you know, I'm just gonna go as hard as long as I can. And then I stretch. So I do down dog, up dog five times, cat, cow, five times. And then I go sit in front of the red light. I got a red light panel. I sit in front of the red light and that's. I meditate. And I do that for about 15 minutes. And then I make my way into the kitchen. I hydrated, I drink probably 30 ounces of water with a pouch of electrolytes. And then I go into the sauna. I've got an infrared sauna. I sit in the sauna. And that's where I get reading in my reading in the sauna. And I walk across the garage. I sit in my cold plunge for three to five minutes, depending on how I'm feeling. And then when I'm done with that, the light is just starting to come up and I open up the garage and I get some sun in my eyes. It feels really, really good. I walk on the grass barefoot, which I love doing, which is a relatively new thing. And then honestly, by the time that's over, my wife and kids are starting to get up at around 6:30. And I have a cup of coffee, I have my IM8, which I love. Like it's, you know, it's extensive, but at the end of the day, how I feel after doing that. And it's not like it takes me all day. Like those things happen in succession. It takes about an hour and I love every one of them outside of the cold plunge.

[Stephen Borelli]

That's a good one. I just moved and I have room for a cold plunge and sauna now. I'm excited to start doing that.

[Michael Chernow]

I do believe that.

[Stephen Borelli]

Are you a cold plunge? There's a lot of new things out of a couple of my buddies. Like, oh, it's kind of cap. What's your thought process of on the cold plunge? Yeah, it's like they're finding out that it might be. Be not as good for your muscles as they.

[Michael Chernow]

Well, so basically the thought process is doing it right after a strength training session. It might not be as good for your muscles because you kind of want that, you want that inflammation to actually heal itself as opposed to expediting it. And that's ultimately what the ice does, right. It'll bring down inflammation. And after you train, if you're training right, you're making micro tears in your muscles. And the way muscles grow is by them healing themselves with protein synthesis, right. And so the cold plunge might expedite the inflammation process. And so it might not be the greatest if you're trying to grow, if you're trying to get stronger and bigger. I don't buy any of that bullshit. I don't do the cold plunge because.

[Stephen Borelli]

I think it's more of a mental thing, right?

[Michael Chernow]

I don't do it because I think it's going to give me another 5, 10 years to my life. I do it because it's fucking hard. It's a negotiation every time. It's a massive win, a major, massive win for me in the morning because I'm like, I just don't want to do it. Every single day I do it. I just don't want to do it. And I'm able to convince myself, yo, man, like, there's going to be a lot of things you don't want to do, but this is an easy decision. Go for it. You're going to feel great when it's done. The difference between me doing that routine and then just the non negotiables that I first said, by the way, awesome. Like, you know, if I'm not, if I'm really not, if we go out for, you know, we go to see, to go do something, we're out late, you know, like, I'm not, I'm also not gonna like bite off my nose to spite my face, right? Like, I'm not gonna go if my wife And I are on a date night and we go see like last week we go, we, we saw Jerry Seinfeld, which is pretty awesome, but we saw Jerry Seinfeld. We didn't get home until 12:30. Like, am I going to wake up at 5:00 clock in the morning? Because I'm supposed to wake up at 5 o' clock in the morning. No, I'm trying to optimize, man. I'm trying to like live the best life possible. And so I'm going to sleep, I'm going to give myself to 7 to 8 because I know that that's important. So I don't. Like, you know, I, for years people gave me shit about my morning routine because they were like, oh my God, you're one of these guys. And I'm like, hey, like you could walk around life judging people for the decisions that they make because you either a, are jealous that you potentially don't have the commitment ability to be able to do something like that on a consistent basis or you're just like jumping on the bandwagon and, you know, sort of rolling your eyes because everybody else. Right. Like, I do it because it actually how I feel when I walk back into my house. Whether my wife and kids are at the breakfast nook or they're on their way. I am my best self at 6:30 to 8:00 clock in the morning. I'm untouchable, I'm impenetrable. I am the best dad and the best husband I can possibly be after doing those things because I've just won 14 times.

[Stephen Borelli]

Times.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, it's totally in my control. You know how hard it is to win.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

How hard is it to win?

[Stephen Borelli]

So hard.

[Michael Chernow]

Winning is so hard, man. And big wins takes an army and an army of everybody working in unison together. Snipers in their positions, fucking front line ready to go. Probably taking casualties. Like, it's so hard to win big. So like, if you can control these little ones in the beginning of your day, the chances of you being ready to rock and roll and in unison with the rest of your team are just far greater.

[Stephen Borelli]

And that's momentum too. Like what you just described is, is momentum for you during the day. And the times that we've as a business have had momentum and then lost it, it's so hard to get it back. So like, it may not seem like it, but if you as a founder have that and it allows you to kind of, hey, five days in a row of this, you're moving. And that encourages you to bring that into the team. I mean, that could be worth a lot for.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. And by the way, like, the people within the organization see you show up like that knowing that like, look, every decision that's made at the company, good and bad, the end of the day resides with you. That's the truth. Like it make. I've, I made a decision or not a decision, but I just learned early on it doesn't matter where the finger is pointed. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Like, it really doesn't matter. If somebody fucks up royally, I am going to be the one that's going to speak for it. Like, I could definitely say, hey man, you dropped the ball, here's the ball. Like, don't drop it, you know, but like making somebody feel like. I've just, I have felt that there, there needs to be assertiveness, of course. But I just know as when you take, when you sign up to be the boss, the leader of the ship, the CEO, the founder of the company, you sign up to take all of the good and the bad, you know, and it's just what it is. And so if you, if you show up in your personal life and the team sees who you are showing up that way in your personal life, man, like the waves that, that makes in business with your team, I've, I've learned has, are invaluable.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah. The areas of the business that I don't want to know when you have that are happening, you were like, oh, we don't really need to do this. We don't really need to focus on it. And you know, you should, or you maybe you do it last in the, in the day. Those end up becoming the biggest problems or things in the business you're maybe a little insecure about. Those become the biggest problems. And so I've noticed, like, if I, if I see that in me, I gotta go attack it because I can't, I gotta get that in the butt before it becomes something big.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. And I think also just finishing on this thought, like, intuition is really important to me. Like, and I think for, and a lot of founders that I speak to, like, intuition is really, really important. I have found myself because I want people to have autonomy. I think it's important that people specifically in like a senior level position that they have autonomy in their roles where they don't have, they feel like they can go out and make decisions and like ask for forgiveness or give high fives when the outcome is revealed. Like, there have been a few places along the way where I have Completely gone against the grain when it came to my intuition, based on someone who was an expert or a leader in their department. And I just want to say, like, sometimes you have to break that wall and you have to be like, you know what? I know you're the X at the company. I really do believe in you, and I really do trust you, but I have to let you know, we're not doing that.

[Stephen Borelli]

We're just.

[Michael Chernow]

We're not doing that. I know it might. It might make perfect sense on a piano, but.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah, like the margin issue, you know, $5 more. Yeah, that's a. I love that story. That's. That's a. That's a business defining story. If you lowered price, you wouldn't. You wouldn't be here.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah.

[Stephen Borelli]

Because you would be competing. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Steve, this is so much fun, man.

[Stephen Borelli]

Yes. Great.

[Michael Chernow]

I really appreciate you making it. And I. And I know that you had DMed me about doing a run and I totally fucking forgot to get back today.

[Stephen Borelli]

Wouldn't have worked either way. We'll do it. We'll do it again soon.

[Michael Chernow]

Okay?

[Stephen Borelli]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Thank you so much for coming, man. Where can. Where can Everybody follow along?

[Stephen Borelli]

Cuts is cutsclothing.com or huts on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Stephen Borelli. Two Rs, two Ls, sick.

[Michael Chernow]

Guys, thank you so, so much for tuning into this one. This was a good one. I love when I get founders that are just crushing on the pod podcasts. It's just there's like an energy, there's a fire that gets ignited when I get to sit across the table from an entrepreneur who is willing to take a risk, willing to put his basically life on the line to create something that he thinks and now many, many, many other people agree with will make an impact in life. And look at the end of the day, right, like, how you look really impacts how you feel. It's just the truth. And anybody that's gonna tell you differently is fucking lying. So how you look really impacts how you feel. And how you feel really does dictate how you perform. So the clothes that you wear on your back honestly make a difference. They just do. And so I. Cuts is the shit. I love Cuts. Cuts has been around for, you know, I mean, literally, I feel like, for a long time, and now it's. I mean, it's only been eight years, but it feels like forever, and I think that's a really good sign. So check out Cuts. Follow along Steve's story. He's obviously a really, really sharp dude and do me a favor. Pass this off to a friend, a family member, a foe, someone that you think would love to hear a great story, a great conversation amongst two entrepreneurs that are just out here, you know, trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents.

[Stephen Borelli]

Let's go.

[Michael Chernow]

That's the rent I ask you guys to pay. That's it. That's the rent I ask you to pay. Share the podcast, post it on your channel, do a little story with a link, give us a five star rating and review. Don't write a bad review. You could DM me the bad review and I'll happily get back to you on that one. That's all I ask of you guys. I really appreciate you all. This podcast is nothing without you. Neither is creatures of habit. So mad love, mad respect. Until the next one, y'.

[Stephen Borelli]

All.

[Michael Chernow]

Peace.