← Kreatures Of Habit Podcast 
Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
Strike Fast, Tell Bold: John Sampogna on Brand Strategy & Storytelling That Sticks
01:06:43
Loading summary
Transcript136 lines
- [00:00]
John
But I like to make decisions quickly. And the way I think about it is like if I make seven or eight decisions before my competition can make two, I'm five decisions ahead. And even if I go 65, 70% on those decisions, I'm already revising those decisions and implementing the feedback on the first round while they're still sitting on that first decision or second decision.
- [00:21]
Michael Chernow
I'm Michael Chernow and this is the Creatures of Habit podcast. Our habits will make us or break us. It's just that simple. I've lived on both sides of the tracks and have learned that the decisions we make on a consistent basis truly define who we are as human beings. On this show, I will be interviewing some of the most inspiring, motivating and.
- [00:44]
Unknown
High performing humans I've encountered to share their daily habits, routines and rituals that.
- [00:50]
Michael Chernow
Help them stay on top of their game and ultimately happy. So sit back, relax and pay attention because what you hear over the next 30 to 45 minutes could potentially change your life. Let's go. So I want to, I want to talk to you about E. Comm. I want to talk about marketing and obviously I want to, I want to, I want to learn about your habits, rituals and routines. But I, I think the most, you know, exciting part of my life today is, is stepping into this world of CPG for the first time is I came from the world of restaurants.
- [01:27]
John
Yep.
- [01:27]
Michael Chernow
And so as an entrepreneur, being able to sort of like use some of the skill sets and tools that I took out of the restaurant business and try to apply that digital world, but just really learning another industry for the last four years, like from scratch. And so getting into the head of someone like you who's been helping brands scale and build and, and drive awareness, drive revenue. What are you seeing today in the world of like digital marketing, specifically on the paid side, what have you seen to be like, what is successful right now?
- [02:02]
John
It's an interesting time because so many brands popped up, you know, during COVID and the primary customer acquisition tool was, you know, the Internet, AKA like Metta and largely Instagram search, things like that. Right. And the mentality has been developed that as a brand or a marketer, like I put money into the machine, meta, whatever it is, and then money immediately comes out. And that works for like mid to lower funnel marketing tactics, but it's not a good way of building a business or a brand long term. And I think like, you hear a lot of people talking about roas and like your cost per acquisition and all these numbers. Right. And it's funny because those numbers are super important, but it's almost like you've accepted faith that you're going to pay for every single customer forever. And the part of that is the cost of doing business. You sort of need to, but you need to invest, I believe equally in all that stuff. Still, still super important. But you need to invest in top Funnel brand building. You need to build something that stands out from the crowd when you know the media spigot turns off when, especially like on these channels where the second you're targeted, you know, eight of your competitors are going to surround you in tiles around you. So you need to stand for something beyond, you know, short term goal. And I think that you're starting to see now a lot of brands realizing they never actually invested in building a sustainable marketing engine and they're taking a step back and having to kind of diversify away from just pure performance into like a more balanced marketing approach.
- [03:40]
Michael Chernow
So like, give us an example. I'd love to hear an example of that. Like, would you consider the creatures that have a podcast being like top Funnel?
- [03:46]
John
This is good. You're, you're, because you came from outside, you're actually doing a really good job. I mean, I believe right now wholeheartedly that especially if you're going to be using channels like Instagram or TikTok or anything like that, you know, you need to learn from the space and the space is like you're competing with, you know, your family and your friends and celebrities and athletes. So having people in your ads is crucial that connect. It has to feel authentic. It's why, you know, influencer marketing is so big and you know, creator content, all that stuff. So having you in the, in the ads, selling the core belief of the, of the business is, is crucial because people buy stories, they don't buy products. I believe that. So I think that, you know, when you're looking at your marketing mix like something like this, where you know, this is a, it's a time investment and you're, you know, we might touch on like my business or, or your business, but it's not the core message of this, of this, you know, 30 minutes here, it's long term, but maybe five, six, seven months from now you start doing this all the time, it compounds and you start to build awareness beyond your, you know, your main customer group. And that's how you kind of always replenish the top of funnel. So you could ultimately like, you know, retarget them and get them to buy something. But you always need to replenish the top. And I think that is what's lacking today. It's constant focus on mid to low and no and not enough focus on always like figuring out who your next customer is or which broader group of people need to be aware of your business, your product, your service.
- [05:24]
Michael Chernow
I think that's. I would love to sort of dive into this a little bit. Like, so give us an example because there are a lot of entrepreneurs specifically in the space that I am and you are in. Give us a few examples of what those innovative sort of creative top of funnel strategies could be.
- [05:40]
John
It's going to be really dependent on the business. But I think that first you like to look at what you're doing really well. You know, you're doing really. I feel bad we're talking about you now about your business. I don't want to act like I'm picking it apart.
- [05:55]
Michael Chernow
No, I would love to go for it.
- [05:58]
John
You do product storytelling really well. So what other mediums, channels would that actually work for? Things like Connected TV shares the same basic principles as, you know, Meta and TikTok and everything like that, but there's an element of like premium to it because it reminds the consumer of like linear TV where, you know, you can still invest in a 15 second to 30 second spot. You'll have a little bit more time to tell your story and then you can start thinking about like, how do I evoke a reaction on that platform where people are, you know, maybe they're binging a TV show while also on their phone, on their couch? What can you do? Can you like play with audio so people get confused to think that like, maybe their TV froze so they actually look up and pay attention to the ad. Can you do something that actually just feels like entertainment and content and doesn't feel like an ad at all? So I think like, what is the sidestep to what you're already doing and testing those channels? I think audio is incredibly, incredibly important. Podcasts are like the compartmentalization of how people get news and information and education. And it's funny you ask someone like, oh, what are your favorite podcasts? And everyone's always got one or two that they really love. And then you kind of dig deeper and then they've got like a few hidden secrets. And those like hidden secrets are like everyone's personal curated kind of content mix. So if you were to just sit back and build a list of like, what are independent podcasts that aren't necessarily owned by, you know, big larger companies that you can start to Verticalize health care, wellness, fitness, sports, all this stuff. Just start building lists and whenever you want to reach that, that audience, you may have a list of like seven or eight wellness podcasts and you reach out to each of them, you get a host and build a relationship and it's a fairly inexpensive ad buy and you're going to get a host ideally who's perfect to do the ad read and build the your brand into their audience in a way that feels authentic. So like aud, ctv, those are great. Out of home. There's just so many things right now that are like undervalued in my opinion because everyone is so hyper conversion focused and it's like on meta, on Google, on TikTok, on Just Immediate, like immediate pat on the back that everything's working.
- [08:17]
Michael Chernow
Spend a dollar today, see what it looks like at the tomorrow.
- [08:20]
John
Yeah, like the end of the day and why we just increased it, why is it not working?
- [08:23]
Michael Chernow
And it's like, so I, I like, I like, I like that. I actually really like that podcast strategy of just like, like not. Look, don't try to swing with these big podcasts because you know, I've taken a couple, I haven't taken the big, big swings, but I've taken some like mid level swings and some of the pan out, some of them don't. But you know, to spend 5 to 75,5000 $7500 on a single ad read, like you hope that, that works for sure. And a lot of the time they're like, we hope it works too, but we can't guarantee anything, you know. And so what I've kind of found in the space today is that there's so many people gunning for your, you know, for my business, right? So many people. And the amount of cold emails I get on a daily basis is obnoxious. I mean I would love nothing more than to just figure out a way to just change my email because it's just 70 emails a day from solicitors, right? No, not, not a single one of them is willing to put their money where their mouth is though. They're like, oh yeah, I'm going to get, you know, we'll get you, you know, 4.5x, you know, and I'm just not.
- [09:32]
John
None of that's true.
- [09:33]
Michael Chernow
None of it's true. None of it's true. None of it's true.
- [09:36]
John
No. And like I always say, when brands are coming to us and talking about like, you know, whether you're a new brand and we're bringing you to market We've done that for years. Or an existing business reaching a new threshold of growth. The question is always like, well, how much money to spend? And I'm like, whatever you can afford that keeps you disciplined to focus on the plan and not pivot the second you get nervous or investors start applying pressure. So I always say like people are going to be spending way less than you and a lot of people are going to be spending way more than you. But if we are doing a setup and we're doing a month long of planning, creative ideation, channel strategy, RFPing vendors to try and get a really nice media mix for you and we're basically saying, look, first 90 days it's all about awareness. 60% of the spends all going to awareness. Don't freak out if you don't see sales. And then if I get an email like a weekend, where's the sales? Like and then all of a sudden, oh, someone so is a growth person, they know how to fix it. And then like, yeah, you increase frequency and bring people down the funnel and then you just exhausted that entire audience. Did you replace it? Probably not. Now like that person who did that is going to look like a genius for about three days and then they're not going to have anything else when that audience is exhausted. So it's a balance. So it's like whatever you can afford. And go to sleep at night without having to wake up with a panic attack is what I recommend when you're launching a business or looking to get to that next scale.
- [11:01]
Michael Chernow
How did you figure all this shit.
- [11:02]
John
Out and doing it for a long time like in my background I studied music in school and I never, I knew of advertising obviously as like a, like a thing, but I never wanted to like work at an agency. I didn't know what an agency was when I was in school. I stumbled into at the time, back in like 2006, I guess, mid sized digital agency, about three or 400 people in Los Angeles and, and in New York City. And I took an entry level job as the executive assistant to the CEO and I got to sit in his office, read his emails and like basically I learned the business from how someone operating like a 400 person agency learned was operating it. And I never fell in love with like being a strategist or a creative or a good manager. I wanted to just like I liked the business, it was interesting. I liked meeting a lot of people and seeing different businesses. I think that's the cool thing about it. You get exposure to so many different businesses and I remember, you know, by the time I was like 25, 26, I had met a buddy at a new, at a different agency and we were like insufferable. We like thought we knew everything and we were like, yeah, one day we're going to do our own thing. And we kept saying that. And then six months later we were like, fuck it, let's just try it. We have like, like I always say, like when you're thinking about a big decision, there's like the difference between risk and a terrible idea. And I still use this today. Like risk is, you know what your downside looks like for me in that situation, it's quitting a job. I had no kids, I had no wife, I had no house. I was making decent money at the time for a 26 year old kid. And if I fail, I would, I still think I'm pretty employable. So I would go back to a company with my tail between my legs and ask for a job and like, are you okay with that failure? And I was so take the risk. And I think a terrible idea is when you don't know how the implications of your failure, you haven't thought it through and you don't know how badly you're going to get hit if this doesn't work out. And more importantly, other people will be impacted by it. So like if it's, if it's gray a little like blurry to you, like think about it more, do more research. Don't just do it on a, on a, on a whim. I think there is a big difference between risk and a bad idea. So I, and then, yeah, to answer your question, I just learned 15 years running, running Wondersauce and hundreds and hundreds of clients and situations, good times and bad times.
- [13:32]
Michael Chernow
So can you talk us through like a big win, A big win with a brand.
- [13:38]
John
So it was a pretty cool. Our story. Like the first five years of our, of our agency, it was wild. It was two of us, we had no funding, no clients. And like after a month it was three and then five and it just. After year one, we were like 13 or 14 people. And then by, by the time we was like year three, I think we were like close to 70, 80 people. It was nuts.
- [14:00]
Michael Chernow
How many people at the agency.
- [14:01]
John
Now we just maintain that we're like 100 people. It's a good number. I've tried to go bigger and I don't like the way it feels.
- [14:09]
Michael Chernow
Is it remote or are you in.
- [14:10]
John
An office where we have an office in New York and in Nomad. But we're kind of hybrid in the office, and then we're. We're at home as well. It's basically like, we employ adults, and as long as they're being adults, they can be productive wherever they want to be. But we try and get people in once a week, and obviously we meet with clients. Today we have a big photo shoot in our office. So it's a good balance. So we're scaling. And I remember there was always this, like, you're in your late 20s and you're like, is this real? People don't take us seriously. We are also doing a lot of work with direct to consumer businesses. And it was like, the beginning of that, right? So it was amazing because we got to launch these companies, but my dreams were always to, like, be a legit ad agency, like, big. And the perception was always like, oh, they're cool. They're like designers. They're this, that. I'm like, no, fuck that. I want to do, like, corporate big things. And I remember we were pitching for, like, the global redesign of a giant hotel platform. The app, the site. It was like six or seven brands had to live underneath it. And we were in the finals for this pitch. And I remember waiting to go in and pitch, and there was like four of us. And I mean, it just at the time, looking back, it's comical. I remember waiting for the other agency to come out, and everyone walked out. It was like 18 people wearing, like, suits. Business, like, all the business with, like, tons of swag and, like, briefcases and stuff. And I was like, what is this? So I remember. I remember jumping into the room, getting ourselves set up, and there's like, you know, 15, 20 people waiting. And you can tell, like, they've been in that room all day. There's no windows. Oh, it's. It's like, you know, and then we come. We come in. They must have thought, like, what is this now? So I look around the room and I see, like, like, swag everywhere. Like, branded mouse pads and notebooks, moleskin things, like, all this stuff that I guess other agencies were just dropping off throughout the day. And, like, we didn't have any. Any swag to give them. So I remember they. They gave us like, 45 minutes, and we were just like. The first thing I said was, hey, look, we have no swag, but I'm glad you guys have that taken care of here. And, you know, we've got about 45 minutes. So the children are here to entertain you for a little while. We'll Keep it light. Everyone started laughing. And I remember like from that moment on we had them in our hand and we were basically just talking through our expertise how we would approach this. We had won the business and it was at the time, it was our biggest win yet. But it validated that we can do the work that firms that were like 50, 60 years old can do. And that age truly just a number and experience is about the moment. So that's how I've always built the company. Like, I don't value like climbing the ladder. How long have you been here? Let me see your resume. Did you go to, do you have an mba? I don't care about any of that stuff. It's about like, are you willing to work hard? Are you willing to learn? Are you willing to like, more importantly, learn from mistakes? And it's how I've always just kind of applied the way I build businesses.
- [17:20]
Michael Chernow
I want to talk to you quickly about some, some habits. We were on the Creatures have a podcast and I would assume you and, you and I are around the similar, similar ages.
- [17:29]
John
Just turned 40 like six months ago.
- [17:31]
Michael Chernow
Congrats. I'm a little old. I got, I'm, I just turned 44, but roughly the same time. Growing up, growing up in the 90s. Right. What is, you know, how important to you running a big, it's a pretty big agency, 100 people. I, I would consider that a big agency at this point. And from the list of brands that I know you've worked with, you guys are, are like you're playing in the big leagues. You just are. How important is your, your health to you as a business owner?
- [18:02]
John
It's incredibly important. You know, it's something I didn't take that seriously until about five years ago. You know, we have like a family history of, you know, heart disease, high blood pressure, cholesterol, all that stuff. So going for my, you know, physicals, that was always like top of mind. And I, you know, it was one of those things where I had a, I have a three year old daughter, a wife. It's like very top of mind. So figuring out habits, routines to basically make sure I'm consistent every day. I believe in like balance to everything and it's not about perfect. Like I don't want to take things for me at least to a level where it's not sustainable. I need to find my level and then I can stick to it like five, six, seven days a week. And if I fall off for a day or two, it's, I'm right back on And I miss it. So for me, like diet, exercise and just like balance in life is so crucial.
- [19:01]
Michael Chernow
Balance is a big topic of conversation that I've been having with myself and have been creating some content around. But if we had to do so. I want to talk about balance, but I also want to ask you about like, do you have like a morning routine?
- [19:16]
John
Yeah, I mean it's not perfect. I'd say like this time of year, through the early spring through the. Through like December is like my prime time for waking up really early. I like when it starts to get lighter around like 6, 6:15. So I usually wake up around 5:30 as consistent as I can be with it. And my first meeting every single day for the Most part is 9, 9:30. I have an executive stand up every single day. So that gives me about three and a half hours. You think about balance. For me it's, it's, well, family first and then it's work and me. And I like to like, I'm not that literal where I'm like, oh, you have three hours one for me, like, it's not that literal. But the way I kind of look at it is in the beginning of the day I usually try to get a workout in and eat breakfast. And then by, you know, 7:30 I'm grabbing my daughter, cooking something for her, hanging out with her for about an hour. And then that leaves me like 30, 40 minutes before my first meeting to basically just like plan my day. So that's a typical day in the morning and I kind of like hit all those boxes of balance to get things started, which, you know, is important to me.
- [20:27]
Michael Chernow
So work out fam. And then you, you sit down and start planning your day about 30 to 40 minutes prior to your.
- [20:35]
John
Yeah, like 8:30, 8:45 ish. I'm usually like blowing through emails, looking at my calendar, prepping for stuff.
- [20:42]
Michael Chernow
How so when you say planning your day, like is there, is there a technique that you use to actually sit down and plan the.
- [20:48]
John
No, no, I don't have like, I don't have like lists or anything like that. I have this weird thing where I'm always, always, always at. @ inbox zero. Like no matter what, it could be like vacation. Like I have always.
- [21:01]
Michael Chernow
You're always at inbox zero always.
- [21:04]
John
Like I either have the emails drafted and I'm scheduling them or I've read it and I basically am thinking through a response and like the second I grab my phone I will blow through like what's happened in the last hour and a half. And so my next, by the morning I'm kind of just like, I scan the day before and I look for things I need to follow up on or maybe things I may have missed if it came in late at night. And then I'm kind of on to the next day. But it's usually just like checking email is kind of like my, my nudge. Because when you're always at zero, anything that's like there is basically an action item in my, in my point of view and then I'm looking at my calendar like what am I doing today? Who am I talking to? Pitching? What do I need to catch up on? Read all that stuff.
- [21:50]
Michael Chernow
Do you use Slack at the agency?
- [21:53]
John
Slack more than email? For, for the most part Slack is like, we have, we have like fairly strict rules around communication. Like I don't do, we don't do chat, we don't do text messaging. Text messaging is for like urgent, urgent stuff. Slack is one to one and one to group. And honestly the teams like live and die on Slack. Every project, every account has an internal and external channel. There's tons of one on one groups, there's executive groups, there's groups for each team. It's, it's the best. And, but I try and limit Slack to, for me at least like I always think like, could that be an email because you know, CEO sends you a note on Slack, you're going to get a response quick. But it's disruptive if I don't, if I don't need the response now I put it in an email and they know that, like get to it when you can, today, tomorrow. And Slack to me is like I need that response now. So I try and kind of strike that balance where if it's something I've done, I'm curious on because I used to do this. Slack is so amazing. I'd be like, hey, you mentioned there's like a big moment in this account coming up and like I know we passed that. I didn't hear anything. What's going on? Then it's like I'm breaking that person's routine. They're working on something. They're going to take 10 minutes to write something, maybe longer and then they're going to have to take another 15, 20 minutes to get back into whatever they were doing. So it's disruptive. So for me it's like a channel strategy for how you stay organized is important, don't you?
- [23:20]
Michael Chernow
I mean, God bless you. For me, I try my absolute best to keep my inbox zero. It's almost impossible. The best time for me, honestly, the greatest time for me in email is in flight. Like for me on planes. I, I almost schedule flights to be able to just plow now. I never let my email get past like 65 to 80. Right. Like it's, it's. And it tends to stay in that 45 zone. Even with my executive assistant working with me and trying to help me get through this stuff. Email is my kryptonite. I fucking hate email. I feel like I spend 70% of my time at Creatures of Habit on a screen via email or Slack and I feel like that is the least productive use of my time. And so how do you manage that? Like, how do you like, I mean, I mean maybe I'm different because I am truly extroverted. I feel like the best use of my time is this. And I end up as a CEO. CEO of this company, spending the vast majority of my time on this. Is that. Are you like super comfortable just being behind a screen all the time?
- [24:38]
John
I am. I do talk to people a lot and we've got a really nice executive and management team and in many instances I'm in the background now. They are running the day to day of the company and I am working with them one on one or in a small group on key decisions and how I would approach situations. So I'm on like at least five unscheduled 30 minute calls a day, working through like a real time issue with someone that no one knows I'm involved in. It could be internal, it could be external and it's. That's what I'm good at, like interpersonal stuff. I love speaking to people so I am comfortable like on screen and everything like that and writing on everything. But that can't be everything. You also need to like build the culture and lead by example. So like there's gotta be more than just words on screens. It's gotta be people talking and working through stuff together. Because a lot of stuff is lost in just text.
- [25:45]
Michael Chernow
Yeah.
- [25:45]
Unknown
Interrupting this episode to share with you how we keep this podcast going and that is by you supporting us through trying out or subscribing to meal one on creatures of habit.com I am giving a 20% discount on your first order or your first subscription order, which is a serious discount. Meal one is a superfood meal. It is a blend of gluten and glyphosate free oats. It is packed with 30 grams of plant based protein, omega 3 fatty acids, a probiotic, digestive enzymes, vitamin D3. It also has chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds and a little bit of pink Himalayan Salt. There are 37 grams of healthy carbohydrates and anywhere from 7 to 10 grams of fat, depending on the flavor. You will be full for hours, people, I promise you. We developed Meal one to help you perform at your absolute best to get that incredibly healthy and convenient edge on the competition. There is not a better, more convenient meal to start your day with or use as a pre or post workout meal. The macros are perfect and sourced with the cleanest ingredients in the game. Take your performance to the next level. Make your life much easier by saving time. Be able to eat healthy without sacrificing flavor and all while staying full for hours, making your urge to snack far, far less. Hop over to creaturesofhabit.com that is creaturesofhabit.com and use promo code K O H P O d the number 20 for your first order of meal one today.
- [27:10]
Michael Chernow
Back to the pod. I want to take a little pivot because I have a question about TikTok.
- [27:14]
John
TikTok.
- [27:14]
Michael Chernow
TikTok is, you know, there's, there's, there's so many mixed reviews on TikTok. Obviously I think we all kind of know anybody that is in the world of CPG, specifically DTC, CPCBG. Ads on TikTok don't really convert well. However, creators on TikTok through TikTok shop. There's mixed reviews. What have you experienced there?
- [27:40]
John
It's mixed. It is mixed. But I, I do think that it's, it's like a good muscle to keep working the partnering with the creator, community and influencer, micro influencer and just like getting all this stuff that's coming into you on a week to week basis from other people that create well and figuring out what it means for your brand and working it into some sort of a repertoire, whether that's TikTok or Instagram. But I think right now, so it's kind of like at least what I'm seeing with TikTok. It's like very much a wait and see moment. I don't think people are like dramatically rethinking their strategies or doing any type of like heavy, heavy net new investment because they're waiting to see if someone's going to acquire it and what's going to happen in terms of just like, you know, the fate of everything. So it'll be really interesting to see where it goes as a business.
- [28:43]
Michael Chernow
Well, we've got, what do we have? I mean it's April 3rd. So in two days it's like a big, it's a big day for TikTok.
- [28:48]
John
Right. Then Amazon submitted a bid, apparently, which is, I mean, which is massive. You know, they do, they do Commerce well and TikTok, TikTok shop I think would be a pretty nice complement to that. So I think it's one of those things that if you're doing it, you should keep doing it because I don't think that form is going away. I just think it might change in the future and I do think those learnings could be applied to other channels.
- [29:15]
Michael Chernow
If you're not doing it. Is it something to consider?
- [29:18]
John
Yeah, yeah. Short form. Video is everything. Like video is everything.
- [29:23]
Michael Chernow
I mean like, is video everything? Yeah, like content is everything.
- [29:26]
John
Content. Good content is everything. I mean we're going to get like a lot of slop with AI, but good content is everything. And the fact that everything is on demand right now, meaning like you can get like high end premium TV on demand and binge, you know, 10 episodes of something. You can get reality stuff. You can get YouTube content all day long. But the, the playing field is like sort of even like the delivery of it, it's coming through a TV or a phone. So it's like kind of the same from a consumer standpoint. Obviously production values differ, but investing in how to tell a story about your business or your service and how, and making it entertainment is an incredibly important thing to, to invest in. I think like more and more the only thing people are like coming together at the same time is sports. Now every, like there's no more like cultural moments on a week in and week out basis where you tune in at 8 o'clock to watch like Seinfeld. It's not like that anymore.
- [30:26]
Michael Chernow
Sucks. I used to be so good. Don't you remember that?
- [30:28]
John
Of course, it's, it's just different. And I also think like sports is an, is a huge area for brands.
- [30:37]
Michael Chernow
And like give us some context there. Like, what do you mean?
- [30:39]
John
I think like it doesn't have to. It could be like any sport that people are consuming live. There's a premium on live content I think, and the cost to enter that space as a brand is not as cost prohibitive as you would think. So you'd want to look and see which type of content, which type of league or sport would be relevant for your business. But things like in arena signage and sponsorship.
- [31:11]
Michael Chernow
So you think that stuff is actually impactful?
- [31:13]
John
Yeah, I think that like the people that are watching it obviously live are going to see it, people on TV are going to see it. And I think that if you have a unique approach towards, like, creating the ad and the message stands out, it's a good way of just, like, reinforcing or introducing the brand to a different group of people. There's also, like, unspoken things about marketing that I do think matter. If you are doing the majority of your sales on, you know, Instagram or whatever, and you're known as, like, an Instagram brand or this or that. If that brand, though, is now, like, you're walking down, you know, 7th Avenue and you see a billboard, you're like, oh, yeah. In your head, there's something subconscious. Like, it's bigger than I thought. You see them at, like, I don't know, like a liberty game. That's interesting. Like, I didn't know that. It builds weight. I think in a brand it's not expected. And you see, you see people celebrated, like, all the time when they're doing something totally different from a marketing standpoint, like Ryan from, from Jolie, he was a former client of ours when he was doing his sneaker thing. Greats. He's, you know, they're, they're, they're killing it and they're doing what, like, truck advertising for their showerhead brand and they're celebrated. That idea before he did it would be like, one of those things that people say, I'm not doing that. Like, what's the ROI on that? Like, how, how am I going to justify that? It seems, it seems expensive. And then, you know, a brand does it, they get success from it and then that's. It's celebrated. But it's funny, like, someone has to do it first for everyone to feel like it's not, it's not crazy, but there's trucks driving around with a business on it and it's surrounding people that all have, you know, showers that need this. It makes sense. So I think, like, there's always, like, undervalued things around us.
- [33:05]
Michael Chernow
See, I think, I think one. So I, I, I mean, I totally agree. So one thing that I, I try to, to introduce to the team earlier in 24, I said I want to be everywhere all the time. And that means, like, spending money in areas where we're not going to be able to quantify our oi, Right? Like, if you want to be everywhere all the time, it's really, really tough. And it's also going to be like, you're going to roll it, right? Like, and because I do actually strongly believe in, I don't know, if it's seven touch points. But I do believe in. There's a certain amount of times you see a brand until finally you're like, wait a second now, like, heard them on a podcast, saw your friend eat it, it's got served a podcast, an Instagram ad, saw somebody talk about it on TikTok. You know, it was on a billboard somewhere. Like, I think at a certain point that validates like true viability. Right. And do I do. Are we ever going to be able to tell if that like actually converts or not? Who knows? Right? Because like really trying to, to, to. To determine attribution in marketing is really fucking hard.
- [34:17]
John
It's really hard.
- [34:18]
Michael Chernow
It's really hard. Right? Like how, how do you know that that Instagram ad that somebody actually converted on wasn't the seventh time they were exposed to your brand?
- [34:29]
John
Yeah.
- [34:29]
Michael Chernow
You know, outside of the meta. Meta field.
- [34:33]
John
Yeah.
- [34:34]
Michael Chernow
You know what I mean? Like, so if I've got a, I've got a fun question here. If you were to, if you were to take a brand to market right now, D2C, if you had to think through and let's just call it. Because there's a lot of wellness brands in the space right now, a wellness brand into the market, D2C products brand, what would you do? What would be the strategy?
- [34:59]
John
Okay, well, I would want to make sure I would, I would start really, really niche, like almost incredibly niche because whatever my perception of who my audience is, I'd want to validate that there's something there and that they actually like the business. So I'm a big believer in like feedback loops. So, you know, going to market, I'd want to really target.
- [35:23]
Michael Chernow
Let's just use. This is a. This week is that. Well, a protein bar. Protein bar, brand new protein bar wants to go to market.
- [35:29]
John
Okay. So they've retained you and, and like what's the, what's the value prop of the protein?
- [35:34]
Michael Chernow
Plant based high protein, super clean ingredients.
- [35:37]
John
Okay. So it's health conscious people. So I would want to lead into things that, and this is like, I mean I look at this all the time. Like I track saturated fat because it's not good for me. So I look for protein bars that are low in saturated fat. So, you know, whether it's whey or you know, plant based, you know, you could lean into a couple of different areas. Right. First thing you need to understand is like the barrier to entry in that space. It's. If you're, if you're going after men specifically, there's a protein number that you have to hit, I think it's like over 20 to be even like in the room and legit. Most of the people who are going to buy that, that are into like clean protein are probably on some sort of macro system. So they're tracking something. Protein, calories, fat, whatever they're tracking. But so Bombing someone with 300 calories is probably not going to fly. 400 calories for a bar, it's not going to fly. So it's got to be low in calorie. And then I would say something like, you know, what are the other things people factor taste and, and all that stuff and, and the ingredients, like is it going to have like things that are going to bloat me and all that stuff? So I would, would unpack that and I would, I would really try and get this out of the, the team that, that and I would say that. All right, cool. From what I'm hearing now, you've got a caloric efficient bar that meets the threshold for protein. And it's also like not going to like mess your body up. You can have one once a day and it's not gonna like get you bloated and make you feel horrible. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, here's. We'll come back to them with some audience around who we think our target Personas are. There's going to be some push and pull on that because they're going to want to reach way more people than I'm going to want to reach right away. But if it's my business, I would say no. I'm going after like hyper, hyper specific people, converters. That's it all I care about. And I would want to really, really lean into product messaging that I think would incredibly, it would make it a very efficient ad and it would speak to this person like as they're scrolling, hit on the calories, hit on the protein, hit on the, the ingredients. And I would want to basically do some sort of like test where it could simply be like creating a fake business and just putting out some, some like feeler ads in a very, in a very small way to just test on messaging really quick. And you don't even have to do that. You can do it on a platform. And then from there I would want to like say, okay, I got my lower funnel stuff figured out and I would, I would assign a team to figure out like what type of like creators or influencers are good in this space. And I would level it up to like, if I wanted to basically create like really Provocative brand storytelling that is not going to convert, but it's going to make an impact. I would want to have an idea of who our biggest competitors are and I would want to figure out like, where is there an area to own? Yeah, we're going to, we want to own protein bars right now, but where are we going as a business even if we have no plans on introducing other things? I want to build a brand at the top of Funnel that is purposefully broad and we just happen to be offering protein bars right this moment. So I would kind of, that would be my mentality from like a planning standpoint and strategy. And then it's just about like filling in the tactics and, and testing it and putting it out there. But very early on you'll learn like based on the people I thought were going to vibe with the product, are they and then who else is coming in and then you start to figure out like the partnership stuff, expanding the audience.
- [39:12]
Michael Chernow
How important are partnerships, you think if.
- [39:15]
John
They'Re done for the right reason and it's, I think it's not going to like hurt the brand. They're, they're really important. I think like, you know, whether it's with a, another. Another brand that's complementary or someone of influence, like a celebrity or an athlete, I think you just got to be careful. I think that like, for me, a partnership, there has to be like a long term reasoning for it. Whether. I'm not saying I need to like lock this person in forever, but it has to make sense in my long term story. And I don't want to do it just to have like a short term spike of traffic or something like that. Because you can also hear stories about how that leads to people getting confused and thinking like, oh, it's the celebrities brand or that's this, you know, so you need to kind of like be careful. But I do think partnerships can be.
- [40:07]
Michael Chernow
Can be really good when we're thinking about down the pipe. And I think traditionally most brands in this world have put the majority of their eggs in the meta basket and you know, a smaller percentage into Google and search and the bigger brands that have had more success are able to invest heavy on podcast. Right. Like that's kind of like the general vision. Right. Like you slowly get to a place where you're able to now start investing in podcasts. Like, I know, I know guys that are literally dropping, you know, millions of dollars a month on podcasts.
- [40:47]
John
Sure.
- [40:48]
Michael Chernow
Is there something that you foresee coming down the pipe that is not making super big waves Right now, but you kind of foresee as something for all. All entrepreneurs in this world to start thinking about.
- [41:03]
John
It's. It's. It's not that sexy. It's. It's Connected tv.
- [41:05]
Michael Chernow
Connected tv?
- [41:06]
John
Yeah, it's. It's a tried and true platform. Like, commercials do work. There's going to be a layer of, you know, measurement that people really like. And here's what I think about. I think about this as like someone who's planning. We all have a million subscriptions now to these streaming services. It's too much. Right? And they're all fighting for your $15 a month, $10 a month. And they're all trying to create programming. They're also trying to buy libraries of old stuff. So they have like, something that validates to $15 to $10 a month. You're seeing them merge, you're seeing them rebrand. You're see. It's just like it's the Wild west right now in terms of streaming. Guess what? They're not probably like, hyper. Hyper focused on, like their ad platform. Yeah, it's like, not the best right now. That's opportunity, though. There's a reason why you're watching a show and you see the same ad like six times. It's not great, but I think that's. I think that's good for me. Like, I can use that. So if I'm looking at the calendar and I'm thinking, like, okay, like, what's going to be, you know, important, you know, this summer? I would ask my team. I'd say, like, look across, you know, the streamers. Who has like, the hot show this. This summer that's coming out that, you know, summer's notoriously a slow time for new programing. Who's got it? Oh, so and so has this. So and so has this. Interesting. Okay, what are the big sporting events? You know, like next year, I think we got a World Cup. Like, World cup. Last year was the Olympics. Like, what's going on? Who has the rights to those things? Okay, like, Peacock had the Olympics last year. It's like a lot of our clients can't afford direct advertisement on that. But guess what you could do? You just go to Peacock and you buy ads. And how do people watch the Olympics? They just. They put it on and it streams in the background all day long. Eventually it's not the Olympics. Some other stuff.
- [42:56]
Michael Chernow
So what are those. Are those ads comparable to Meta? Can you pay into it or like, how does it work?
- [43:03]
John
It's. Yeah, it's. You can go Direct to publisher, where you literally go to, like, one of the big platforms, like a Peacock or Paramount or something like that. I have X amount of dollars. This is what I'm trying to do. And they'll give you, like, options. You can go to, like a. A partner that does it programmatically. There's like a few of them. There's. There's Mountain, there's Tatari, like Mountain, for instance. It's. It's a little bit more. It resembles like a Facebook system. It's a little bit more familiar. You put money in there, they have access to like, a broad range of inventory and you can buy it, you know, without really having to worry about any type of, like, you know, deals or anything like that. So there's a bunch of ways of doing it. And I just think that it's not cheap right now. And people are going to say, oh, the CPMs are really high. I don't think they are. I think that, like, there's a. You're getting a bigger impact and return on these placements than you would be getting elsewhere. And it's a nice balance to the stuff you do. Still on meta and everything.
- [44:02]
Michael Chernow
Is there roas on it? Can you. Can you quantify roas?
- [44:05]
John
You can, you can. And it's like. It's like when we get into CTV for the first time with the business, we're looking at, like, the vitals of a brand. And, you know, as we were saying before, like, an attribution model is hard to really, like, guarantee, but they're going to give you reporting and there's going to be reporting available for it. But things I look for, if the CTA on the ad is to go to a website or to go to some QR code, you can be QR codes, you could be all that stuff. But I'm looking for, like, obvious vitals month over month. For me, if I'm going to put a business on CTV and we're driving traffic to the website, that's the intended purpose of it. I want to do a look back in 90 days and track the organic traffic coming to the website. I should see an increase. And I can probably attribute that to CTV if that was the only new thing we did. And I'm assuming people are just like, what's this? And they're just typing it in and they go to the that and it's unattributable. Like, I'm gonna say, no, there's a reason why, like, you saw a spike in organic traffic. It's. People were going to it during this flight. So there's ways of doing it. It's not gonna be perfect. But you know, this is why I always say like people have been advertising on TV for 70 years. Like it works. So this is a way for like the next generation of brands to do it. While it also complements all the performance stuff, like to be clear, Facebook is super important. I'm not like poo pooing it. It's. But it's a part of a broader ecosystem. It's not the whole thing.
- [45:37]
Michael Chernow
What do you like better driving traffic to a website or to a landing page?
- [45:42]
John
Landing page is more like mid, lower funnel, more promotional, seasonal things like. And website is like give me the vibe. And I think that's going to be more. I think we're going to get to a point where the maturation of the Internet and how everything adapts to what's going on with artificial intelligence. You're going to start seeing people just it's already happening. People are going to be browsing the Internet through, you know, these large language models and brand websites are going to matter a lot less. People are going to shop through these, through these lms, which is kind of gnarly to think about. So I think that if you look at brand sites now, we're at like maximum best practice. Like everything is like optimized to the like extreme degree. Like PDPs, PCP is homepages, all the best plugins like Shopify this and everything's perfect, right? And every site looks the same. Like growing up making websites like that was what we did the first five to five years of the business that we were like building custom things. We still do for like bigger brands.
- [46:56]
Michael Chernow
Now pay like hundreds, hundreds of. Used to pay a couple hundred grand for like a great website for sure.
- [47:02]
John
And I think we're going to get to a point now where you're going to start to see people take bigger swings on their own properties again. Because if most people are going to these alarms or to search engines to basically consume content, I need, you know, a product that does X and they're going to get stuff served to them. That way the website could become more experiential, more of a time, a place to tell a brand story, more of a place to entertain the user, teach them, educate them. And it doesn't have to be like, oh my God, we have them here, we have to convert them right now, like introduce this product. So I think there's going to be a little bit more of like a lean back the way the Internet used to be on sites, and I'm excited for that because that's when sites and you take chances and do crazy stuff. Like I remember, like having to sell to brands that when you go to the website, you need to have like a big image. Like, that used to be controversial, like the big hero image on a homepage. Find the website. Now it doesn't have that. Back, back, like 10 years ago, 15 years ago, brands used to say, like, there's nothing above the fold. I'm not approving that. And I'd be like, yeah, fold the screen, dude, this isn't a newspaper. People scrolled. Are you on Facebook? Do you scroll? Yeah, like, people scroll. It's gonna work, trust me. So, like, we used to have to fight for that. Now it's crazy. Now we fight against it because it just looks the same and it's too much. So I think we're, we're, you know, to answer your question, I think like the homepage is for the vibe. Tell me about the brand. And don't be so hyper focused on conversion all the time. You could be a little bit more like romantic about it and then obviously landing pages. PDPs are for conversion.
- [48:42]
Michael Chernow
I'm so happy I got you here. I love being able to just drill you with some questions because I think so many people that listen to this podcast will find this super interesting. If they're not. If. Even if they're not in the space. Yeah. Brand story and mission. How important today do you think brand story and mission are in comparison to a great product?
- [49:05]
John
They're two different things. And I think the biggest challenge is educating people on that. You need to sort of make a decision. Is this a brand story or a product story? And if you say that it's both, it's a cop out. I think that most businesses are. Should be a brand story, meaning that, like, your product might be great. It's not saying your product's not good.
- [49:38]
Michael Chernow
It's a byproduct of the story.
- [49:40]
John
Yeah. And your product is like, largely. Maybe it's a commodity. Maybe it's really crowded. Maybe like your. What makes you really special as a brand. Like other people have the same claims. So like leaning in and telling just like that is not going to be enough. So you have to basically then project, you know, project the. The story of like, what are you buying into when you buy this product? What is the lifestyle? What is the impact this is going to have beyond.
- [50:06]
Michael Chernow
Do you think that that actually moves needles?
- [50:09]
John
The brand story? Yeah. Yeah. Because that's what differentiates, you know, a brand that has, you know, 10 competitors to like a liquid death, which is just like they're selling the biggest commodity in the world. And they make crazy marketing that works because they are all about brand, all about brand. They're paid stuff are like big swings that are like super sexy and provocative and they're referenced a lot. And I hate that I'm saying that, saying this because. But they're doing it so well. And I think that it is the epitome of brand marketing because they're selling water. They have a million competitors. Do you think they care about their competitors? No, not at all. They are focused on something way down the line. So brand storytelling works. And also like that's top of funnel. That's not, I'm not, I'm not paid by them. They're not a client of ours. I'm talking about them because they're doing a good, they're doing a good job. And you know, it's, it's all about. For me, like they are one of the best examples I can remember of the last five years. But there are other examples that exist within every business that you just have to be confident in it to exploit.
- [51:21]
Michael Chernow
Black Rifle Coffee was like another good example, right? Like that would be another good example. I mean, I asked selfishly because our brand is all story, quite frankly. I mean, we obviously sell product, but it is all like my motivation for creating this brand has nothing to do with oatmeal. Right?
- [51:40]
John
Yeah.
- [51:41]
Michael Chernow
And so oatmeal is, it was a, was a catalyst for me and my story at a certain point. But I just, I question and I know other founders that I, you know, I'm in cahoots with question like, how much do you push the story or the sale? It's tough.
- [52:00]
John
I think that it is super, super important and it's, it's what over time differentiates businesses. It's what also lowers dramatically, your cost per acquisition. It's when you don't have to constantly, constantly, constantly pay to acquire all the time. And I think that there's also like a lot of interesting things you can do if you've got a really interesting story that's authentic to you and your business.
- [52:27]
Michael Chernow
Like what?
- [52:28]
John
I mean, like, it depends on how wild you want to get. But like we were just talking about, you know, filling libraries at streamers and content is king and all that stuff. Like, you know, you can create like 30 minute episodes, deep dives into topics that are important to your audience. You can package it up and make sure the production quality is top notch. You could sell it to a streamer. And your brand is not going to be front and center, but they're going to know about you and they're going to know about your brand. And I believe as much content as they're in that as there is right now, there's a shortage of good content. So if you were to create, you know, if you were a brand and you wanted to create, you know, 7 to 10, 20 to 30 minute, you know, episodes of content around a topic that's relevant to your business, the research and R and D on that will take two seconds with the tools that are available today. And if the production quality is there and you're decently connected, you can get the right people to make it entertaining on air. Editing is cheap. All that stuff is cheap. So, like, yeah, original programming, that's a weird idea that's going to get shot down by, like, you know, 99.9% of CMOs and CEOs and founders, but someone will do it and they'll crack it and it will be a really big success. Oh, and they have a business and you learn about that and you're like, oh, yeah, it's probably why they did this. Like, Red Bull strategy was all that, you know, they. Red Bull does extreme. They branded, they owned extreme sports and now they own soccer teams and F1 teams and they own, you know, they own that whole world. They, they built a business on content. So, like, that's all awareness. I think the best brands do that.
- [54:19]
Michael Chernow
Dude, we've kind of bounced all over the place. It's always fun for me to have an expert on the show where we don't always focus everything on the habits, rituals and routines. I want to wrap with one thing. You had mentioned, balance and how important balance is for you. And I imagine it didn't always exist for you in your life. Starting an agency 15 years ago in your late 20s and now, you know, just turning 40 and being married with kids, I would imagine that there's been some level of evolution in your balance game.
- [54:53]
John
Yeah.
- [54:54]
Michael Chernow
So I would just love to hear, because I'm very focused on balance. I do believe that there is such thing as balance. Even though some of, some of the greats, you know, would probably contest that. What is your balance? What does balance mean to you in your life right now?
- [55:12]
John
It's longevity and happiness and you need to always work the angles that occupy the most amount of time in your day to give you more time. So, like, for me, it's Sometimes it's waking up. I have to wake up early to get my exercise in or whatever. I don't drink alcohol anymore. So that for me was like a cheat code two years ago of like, I'm just way more efficient, I know how to wake up in the morning and I feel exactly the same every single day. Even diet, right? Like, I'm not that religious with diet, but like a few meals, like just like they like, you know, like the great entrepreneurs always wear the same clothes or whatever. So it's one less thing to think about. My personal trainer was saying like this sounds boring but like eat the same breakfast and like maybe two or three of the same lunches every day because you'll know how your body reacts to it. Like things like that, like figuring out how to like work all that stuff in on a daily basis because then you'll have just more time which will lead to the balance.
- [56:10]
Michael Chernow
That's where that is.
- [56:11]
John
Yeah.
- [56:13]
Michael Chernow
So, but, but across the spectrum of the day, do you think about your day as a, as a balance, like in terms of your personal time, fitness, your family time, your work time, do you set boundaries, other things that you do to, to really sort of sustain balance?
- [56:33]
John
Yeah, I have like, you know, again, like I have a busy job, so I have, I have boundaries but they get broken here and there. So like at 6:00 every day, you know, I'm stopping whatever I'm doing work wise and my wife and I are hanging with our daughter for, you know, the couple hours before bed. And that doesn't mean I'm not going to pick up my phone or my computer at 8:00 and hit it again.
- [57:00]
Michael Chernow
But how often does that happen? Curious to take it back up.
- [57:05]
John
I mean if you count my phone, every night. Right.
- [57:08]
Michael Chernow
But like are you diving in? Are you going get like going deep back in?
- [57:13]
John
I wouldn't say deep, but my version of deep is probably different than other people's version of deep. Like we're, we're rethinking our positioning and reworking that. Last night I was getting pinged between like 6 and 7 in a Google Doc on things that were being addressed to me. And yeah, I went in at like 8 o'clock and I was like responding to all of it, rewriting stuff and kind of like that's where I'm like, I'm reflecting. Like that was probably annoying to the people that were getting those pings. But I don't consider that deep work. I consider that for me I'm investing in the business and it's fun. That's positioning work. I like doing this stuff. It's not dealing with an emergency, so depends on how you define it. For me that's just fun though. But yeah, I responded.
- [57:57]
Michael Chernow
What about the weekends?
- [57:59]
John
Same thing. I'm checking my emails, checking Slack, but for the most part I try and be, be offline. But you know, you get calls, you get things that need to be attended to. And for me at least it's like if I ignore it, I'm gonna be thinking about it, so I might as well just do it because then I'm gonna be like half present, which is even worse than being not present at all. Yeah, I'd rather just like be gone for 30 minutes. Thank. Be thinking or like trying to sneak something on my notes in my phone.
- [58:29]
Michael Chernow
Like, I think we've, we've figured out the same. We've been, we've been our, our own bosses for the same amount of time. Fifteen years. And I think we kind of figured out a very similar system where I do shut it down at 6, hang with fam from 6 to 8. 8:30. 8, 8:30. I typically pick up my phone and, and just sort of like swipe through and just clear up. I think that that's like, I really do believe that that is the balance. Yeah, I believe that that is the balance because there were, there were years where like there was no shutting it down. Right. Yeah, it was, it. I didn't understand that that was an important piece of being an entrepreneur.
- [59:08]
John
Yeah.
- [59:09]
Michael Chernow
Was actually setting. This is how I finish.
- [59:12]
John
Yeah. And I remember, you know, in my 20s and early 30s, like I just lived it and. But that's, that's okay too. Yeah, I think that and kind of what I was getting at with, with like diet and exercise and time is like maybe the 27 year old version of me, like didn't need these boundaries and didn't need all this stuff. I didn't have that much going on besides work. My friends were at work and the ones that weren't, I saw on the weekends. And it's just, it is what it is. But I think when you get older also you get older, your body changes. Like you need to like be there from an energy standpoint, clarity of mind. You need to be your best. So for me, like it evolved with my age, I think as well.
- [60:01]
Michael Chernow
See, I feel very similarly. Like from 28 when I opened my first business to probably 35, it was just intense. It was very, very intense. And around 35, 36 is when I kind of started to Be like, okay, I've got a son now. I've got a. This is. I've got to figure out this system. The thing that. And I share a lot about that, of how important it is for me to set boundaries from when I start to when I finish. I do think that if you're an entrepreneur, that is something that you have to be cognizant of. And like you said, probably in the early days, like, you didn't really have a choice, right? The pushback and the haterade that I get is, well, what if you're starting your first business at 40? And I'm like, the question is, like, you know, you started your first business at 40. You know, the first eight years of being an entrepreneur for me was like, hardcore. 12, 14, 16, 18 hours a day. Like, when you're starting a business at 40 with a wife and kids already for the first time, are. Is it required to have that kind of intensity, or can you do it the way you and I both do it? Do it now.
- [61:12]
John
So I would love to, like, see what these people are doing with 16 hours a day. I would call on that. It's like, you're just not efficient.
- [61:21]
Michael Chernow
Totally.
- [61:21]
John
It doesn't take that much time to do this.
- [61:23]
Michael Chernow
Totally 100. And that's. And I was certainly also for me in the early days, I mean, I was in the restaurant business. So it is a little different because I did feel like the restaurant success was way more successful with me there than without me there. But I way overdid it. 1,000% overdid. It did not need to be there. Could have totally worked 10 to 12 hours a day and it had been fine.
- [61:44]
John
Yes, but it was your choice and it worked. And I think that if also depends on the business. But I don't know, if I were starting another business today, I would not need 14 to 16 hours consistently. What am I doing with that time? Who am I messaging at? Like, at these hours? Like, what am I, like, literally what am I doing? Like, there's only so much you can do with efficiency. And like, people aren't going to respond to you or like, what are you, like, are you writing stuff? Are you, like, literally building like, like, like, like a construction? I don't know, like, it's.
- [62:18]
Michael Chernow
You think about. It would be 8:00am to, like, 11:00pm.
- [62:20]
John
8:00Am to 11:00pm it's like, I get 8 to 7, I get 8 to 6. I get that. But when, like, the world shuts down and, like, people are eating dinner or sleeping, like, what are you doing do you want to be spamming people at like 9pm it's not a good look for your brand. Do you want. I don't. Like, that's not good. Are you scheduled, scheduling a bunch of communications or like, and I'm being a little bit like, you know, I hear that. You know what I mean? But like, I think that a lot of it is like, it's like people use that as an excuse not to do something and actually don't have a crystallized idea of what they want to do with their business because if they did, it's instinctual. I think, like, for me, at least, when I want to do something and I have an idea, I can execute it so fast because it's clear in my head when I don't know something and I'm foggy, I'm like asking questions and trying to clarify and I'm like, oh, that's not a good idea for me. I'm not going to do that. But it's like, I always, I believe in, I'm like a big, big believer in just playing the averages where I, I like making decisions very quickly. I don't ponder things too often. I don't, I, I can't stand, like, waiting to hear a decision. I think it's so, like, like, we.
- [63:35]
Michael Chernow
Gotta look at the data.
- [63:36]
John
I, I never, I, I mean, I have, I look at stuff like that, but then I'm quick to act and usually my instinct and the, and the data are fairly aligned. But I like to make decisions quickly. And the way I think about it is like, if I make seven or eight decisions before my competition can make two, I'm five decisions ahead. And even if I go 65, 70% on those decisions, I'm already revising those decisions and implementing the feedback on the first round while they're still sitting on that first decision or second decision. So for me, I need to move quick and make decisions. It's just the way my mind works and I would rather just do it and put it out there and learn from the mistake. And I've done this long enough where, like, I know my downsides. Like, I know it's not going to, like, if it's something really critical, I'm not going to like, just be like, yeah, do it. But a lot of the stuff people ponder don't need to be pondered.
- [64:28]
Michael Chernow
I don't think I'm with you, man. This is fucking awesome. I really enjoyed this conversation.
- [64:34]
John
Yeah, it was fun.
- [64:34]
Michael Chernow
I think it was. And it's super valuable for those listening if people want to follow along your journey? Where can they follow you?
- [64:42]
John
You can follow me on LinkedIn. Pretty available there.
- [64:45]
Michael Chernow
And just wondersauce.com wondersauce.com and the agency handles pretty much everything. Soup to nuts.
- [64:55]
John
We do two core things. We do revenue acceleration, so that's like a service we sell where we do creative partnerships and media to basically drive revenue growth, both paid and earned. And then we also do like transformation work where we're building digital products, e commerce leveraging like UX and tech to build things. So those are the two things people usually engage us for.
- [65:22]
Michael Chernow
Awesome, man. Yeah, good times, dude. I really, really enjoyed that. I'm sure if you are anywhere close to an entrepreneur in the world of the digital landscape, that was super valuable for you. I love bringing on experts to the show. You know, a lot of Creatures of Habit podcast has to do with habits, rituals and routines. But the beauty of having experts in specific genres is that we can learn about great habits to implement in those specific genres, which is kind of what we did here. And you know, I'm excited to have John on on the show and please follow along where he's at. I'm obviously super interested in looking into Wonder Sauce. I think it could be really interesting engagement potentially for creatures of habit. If you liked this podcast, do me a big favor and share it with your friends. If you're in the world of entrepreneurship and I would assume that you communicate with other entrepreneurs, pass the podcast along. That's the rent I I ask you to pay for this bad boy. Giving us a five star rating and a review would be awesome. If you're feeling super duper generous and other than that, y'all, I appreciate you. I love you. Thanks for tuning in. Hit the subscribe button until the next one. Peace.