← The Michael Chernow Podcast 
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- [00:00]
Sam
I mean, I don't believe that humans were meant to consume the way we do. Traditionally, we went long stints of time without consuming food, and now we have to do things in order to be able to clear out the system. Astaxanthin is definitely something that could, could potentially help there.
- [00:21]
David
So it is the molecule that makes salmon pink. So it's a natural pigment. It's prevalent throughout the marine environment. So it's this natural pigment that we've all seen and consumed, but no one has actually pretty much heard of it or can even almost pronounce it.
- [00:35]
Sam
You've figured out that consuming astaxanthin can
- [00:40]
David
do what it turns out. It's a super powerful antioxidant, like one of the most powerful antioxidants in nature. Thousands of times more strong in terms of quenching singlet oxygen than vitamin C, hundreds of times stronger than vitamin E and CoQ10 and beta carotene. And so it turns out that astaxanthin gets into the membranes and actually perfectly spans the entire membrane from inside to outside and locks in and anchors across the membrane. And so it helps to stabilize the cellular membranes that are prone to disruption from oxidative stress and inflammation. Also, it gets into not just the outer membrane of the cell, but also the membranes around the nucleus and the mitochondria, which are privileged sites that house your DNA or your energy production and helps to get rid of the oxidative stress and inflammation that can damage those critical locations as well. An entrepreneur straight out of New York City, Michael Chernow.
- [01:34]
Sam
What's cracking? I think what we have been drawn to, to so much in the last 10 years is other people's obsessions, right? Like, obsession is like a real. It's, it's, it's like, it's as powerful as, as, as drama and blood and guts. And, you know, like, people are really drawn to, to other people's obsessions if they're extreme.
- [02:08]
David
And you can follow it so closely now with social media and everything that it's like you are invested in, you're living it, and it's like an extension of you. It's like beyond just your favorite sports team now. It's like your favorite person who's doing whatever pursuit, you know, like Matt or Chua or whoever, and then you're just like, so invested in their next update, you know, and did they make it and how'd it go?
- [02:27]
Sam
So, I mean, but, so I think yes, but there I, I've had the, like, pleasure of meeting people that have like, really unique obsessions. And it seems to me like you have a pretty unique obsession. I mean, you've been obsessed over astaxanthine for 25 years. Yeah, I would love if you could just tell people what it is.
- [02:51]
David
Yeah. So it is the molecule that makes salmon pink. So it's a natural pigment. It's prevalent throughout the marine environment. It's also what gives coloration to shrimp and crab and lobster krill, even flamingos are pink because of astaxanthin. So it's this natural pigment that we've all seen and consumed, but no one has actually pretty much heard of it or can even almost pronounce it.
- [03:15]
Sam
And it is exogenous, right?
- [03:17]
David
Yeah. We don't produce it internally. You have to consume it. It's not naturally part of our diet in terms of any land based, you know, animals or plants. It's all ocean based. So primarily salmon is the, is the best dietary source of it.
- [03:32]
Sam
And you've found figured out that consuming astaxanthin can do what?
- [03:44]
David
Well, I haven't figured it out personally, but I've been a part of the effort that has. And so when I got introduced to this in the late 1990s, which was high school for me, I was working on the Big island of Hawaii with a group of scientists that were growing this particular type of microalgae that turns out produces astaxanthin as a defense mechanism against UV light from the sun. So the algae starts off life green. They're in the ponds, they're stressed by the intense sunlight in, in Kona on the Big Island. And then they turn red when they're producing astaxanthin, which helps to mitigate the damages of the UV light that would otherwise, you know, impact their proteins and lipids and, and DNA. And then it works its way up the food chain. And so at the time we knew that it gave salmon their beautiful coloration. It's a key component of actual, the feed for farm raised salmon. So, so salmon, whether they eat it in the wild or consume it in farm raised conditions, they're, they're using astaxanthin to give them their color. But we discovered that and the scientists, you know, kind of were saying that, oh, actually this gives them their overall health and vitality, you know, so without it, without astaxanthin, salmon wouldn't just be gray rather than pink or red, but they'd be smaller, bright, weaker, prone to infection, and probably too weak to swim upstream with that beautiful, strenuous, you know, feat of endurance.
- [05:02]
Sam
I Mean, they're probably some of the most, I mean, as far as fish go, endurance wise, salmon are like unprecedented, right?
- [05:10]
David
Yeah. To swim upstream basically wasting away without being able to consume anything, their muscles are just, you know, dissipating. But astaxanthin helps to offset some of that muscle degradation. And as they get upstream, they actually turn bright red when the astaxanthin is transferred from their flesh, from their tissue to their skin. And then ultimately when they reproduce, the astaxanthin is transferred to their eggs. And that's why salmon eggs are red as well, is because of the astaxanthin. And then it helps with again, protection against UV light from the sun and the shallow ponds where the eggs are laid and then helps in the development of the offspring. And so that's its role in nature. But then when we looked into the actual, like what does it actually do in the cells and you know, in the body, it turns out it's a super powerful antioxidant, like one of the most powerful antioxidants in nature. Thousands of times more strong in terms of quenching singlet oxygen than vitamin C, also hundreds of times stronger than vitamin E and CoQ10 and beta carotene. And so it's super potent, but also it's very different in terms of how it looks localizes in cellular membranes. And we can talk a little bit more, but it's just structurally very different than other antioxidants that gives it its unique benefits.
- [06:22]
Sam
And so in the studies that you've done, can you talk to us about some of the outcomes that you've experienced or personally and, or in study?
- [06:33]
David
Yeah. So first off, I'll, I'll mention that. So we have a collaborator at Harvard that has this model where you can create basically a cellular membrane and look at different molecules like astaxanthin and other antioxidants and see how they actually get into the membranes of the cells, because the cells are the building blocks of our tissues and organs. And the cells are basically, if you zoom in, what is doing everything in your body and powering light, creating energy, and all the functions that allow you to move your muscles and breathe and everything and compute and think. And so it turns out that astaxanthin gets into the membranes and actually perfectly spans the entire membrane from inside to outside and locks in an anchors across. And so it helps to stabilize the cellular membranes that are prone to disruption from oxidative stress and inflammation. And then also it gets into not just the outer membrane of the cell, but also the membranes around the nucleus and the mitochondria, which are privileged sites that house your DNA or your energy production and helps to get rid of the oxidative stress and inflammation that can damage those critical locations as well. And so with the, you know, that mechanism of action and the fact that it gets distributed throughout your whole body, it gets to your liver and your heart and your brain and your muscles and everywhere throughout your body, it has an impact on oxidative stress and inflammation in all these key locations. And so with that, you have joint benefits. You know, so joint mobility, joint comfort, muscle, you know, strength, size, endurance. There's benefits that have been shown there in older people that suffer from muscle loss, which is a major issue with. With aging. There was benefits in terms of increased muscle strength and size in competitive athletes. In competitive cyclists, there was improved endurance that. That was shown in terms of like a very intense 75% VO2 max time to exhaustion cycling exercise. And there's like a 20% improvement in. In that effort. 20% in trained competitive athletes? Yeah. So they. They were cycling for, you know, for as long as they could until they were basically exhausted. The placebo group got about an hour, 12 minutes in, and that was how far they got. The group with the astaxanthin got like an hour and 25 minutes before time to exhaustion. So that was like, like an 18% improvement there. And these were in trained competitive athletes, and it had that type of benefit. Wow. And. But it makes sense because it's getting to the mitochondria. It's allowing them to produce energy more efficiently. You're not switching over to lactate and, you know, other forms of energy production.
- [09:05]
Sam
How long were they on the astaxanthin?
- [09:07]
David
It was like a few months. So. But this is something that's meant to be taken every day. You know, this is like not just taken and then have a benefit and then go off of it. You know, this is meant to be. Or like cycle it on and off. This is meant to be a foundational, like a vitamin, an omega probably have it. Something you take as a daily habit.
- [09:26]
Sam
Yeah.
- [09:26]
David
Just because whatever you're doing, whether it's intense exercise or, you know, traveling or raising kids or you're older or younger. There are studies in all ages that show benefits. And everyone is exposed to the insults of oxidative stress and inflammation from environmental factors, from lifestyle, diet, exercise.
- [09:46]
Sam
Can you. Can you explain what oxidative stress is?
- [09:50]
David
Yeah. So everyone hears about oxidative stress, perhaps, or reactive oxygen species or free Radicals. Some, and some people may think about it in terms of cosmetics, they hear about, you know, antioxidants and in creams or, but also there's, you know, oral supplements that people take that are antioxidants that people hear about. But to know what it really is. For example, if you're exposed to sunlight, the UV light hits your skin and there's certain cells in molecules in your skin, cells that are photosensitive, they absorb the, the light and they become high energy and kind of almost like little Tasmanian devils that want to react with something and then they react with oxygen and that becomes this reactive oxygen species called singlet oxygen that now goes around and with all of its energy can just damage your lipids of your membranes, the, the proteins that carry out all the functions in your cells or the DNA, all the, in your, your genetic code, all that can be damaged by these reactive oxygen species. And so ideally you have endogenous built in antioxidants to mitigate those reactive oxygen species before they get out of control. But as we age or based on environmental or lifestyle factors, our internal systems are sometimes inadequate. When you have too much of those reactive oxygen species, that's oxidative stress. Fortunately, with astaxanthin, it can actually, in that case of singlet oxygen, absorb that energy directly and then vibrate it out. The molecule will actually vibrate and dissipate that energy as heat safely and not damage anything else, not be reactive. But otherwise, if a lipid in your membrane absorb that energy, then that lipid can become oxidized. It's also referred to as lipid peroxidation. And then it can break down and disrupt the structure of your membrane. But also internal cellular functions, it can create inflammation and other things that, that disrupt just normal life at the cellular level. Alternatively, there's also reactive oxygen species created when you produce energy. Your mitochondria are basically moving electrons to pump protons to basically create ATP, which is the power of your cells and of life. It turns out that this conveyor belt, this assembly line of electrons, sometimes the electrons fall off the line and react with an oxygen and again create a reactive oxygen species that based on its atomic structure, now has one unpaired electron that it really wants to find, one extra electron. It's a, it's an electron loving molecule and in that case it's highly reactive because it's just missing one. It just needs one more to be complete basically. And so it wants to steal an electron from a lipid or a protein or a DNA and oxidize them, and that's really damaging. So again, you have endogenous antioxidants that try to donate electrons, but they can again be depleted over time. And so astaxanthin, it turns out again, spanning the membranes of the cell, the mitochondria, the nucleus, it's in all of these key locations. And then it can step in and give an electron to those reactive oxygen species so that they are no longer reactive, they're neutralized, they're safe, they're no longer harmful.
- [12:59]
Sam
But as you're not trying to rob, steal and.
- [13:02]
David
Yeah, because normally, like the lipids in your membrane, if one of them has an electron stolen, they freak out and then they go and steal electron from their next door neighbor, the next lipid, and then the next lipid. It's like this wildfire in your membrane. And then now all the critical functions of membrane, of bringing nutrients in and out, oxygen, et cetera, glucose, that gets disrupted, you trigger inflammatory pathways, you trigger aging pathways. And so with astaxanthin, it's in that membrane, it's kind of like this break in in the, in the forest that stops the wildfire in its tracks. It, it can donate that electron, but then no longer be reactive. It, based on its structure, it kind of absorbs that punch. And then vitamin C comes in from the outside of the cell and can recharge astaxanthin by giving up one of its electrons to astaxanthin. So now astaxanthin is back to normal, but it didn't do anything bad in the meantime. And then vitamin C gets recharged by glutathione, which is one of your built in antioxidants. So they kind of work hand in hand. But again, if you don't have that happening, you have this buildup of these reactive oxygen species that creates oxidative stress, which disrupts the whole balance and the whole function of your cells. Because it's an intricate balance of everything going on. A little bit of reactive oxygen species is a normal process, normal byproduct of energy production of life. Even your immune response uses them to help clean things. If you have foreign invaders, you have bacteria, they come in and kill them with things like reactive oxygen species. But you just don't want that chronically impacting and, you know, disrupting your cellular life. So that's what we really try to target.
- [14:31]
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- [16:33]
Sam
like with, I mean this is obviously super interesting and I, and I asked you to kind of walk down that path because I think people hear oxidative stress, people hear inflammation and what is that?
- [16:45]
Sponsor/Host Voice
Right?
- [16:45]
Sam
Like we were just like oh, inflammation. Right. Like oh, I've worked out my muscles are many tears in my muscles. There's inflammation that is created and then ultimately recovery. Right. To help work on that inflammation. But I think because we live in such a hyper distractive, stressful, anxiety prone world, we are probably our CNS is just not getting what it needs. So in terms of, of regulation.
- [17:17]
David
Right.
- [17:17]
Sam
So is, is, is astaxanthin something that can also help with sort of CNS regulation or, or the byproduct of lack of CNS regulation?
- [17:28]
David
Yeah, it Helps to restore normal immune function. Your normal inflammatory response, which you want, you know, to fight off infections or wound heal or, you know, kind of recover and, you know, build muscle and everything like normal cellular function. The problem with inflammation, when people talk about inflammation in a bad context, is that it's. It's happening in an unwanted sense, you know, and so inflammation is kind of like the first responders, you know, in an emergency. So if your cells are like little cities and there's a fire, there's, you know, an invasion of bad people from outside. The. Your first responders come in and, you know, try to kill them off. And then, you know, if. If they need to tear things down and rebuild them, that. That's what your inflammatory process is, your immune response. The problem is when the, you know, problem is gone, but the immune system doesn't realize that it doesn't resolve and it keeps attacking. It keeps thinking that there's a problem and is tearing down, you know, your cellular components. It's. It's disrupting your membranes. It's. It's breaking down collagen. It's. It's, you know, disrupting whatever it may be in terms of your normal cellular function, energy production, cleanup of the old components of your cells, which is like autophagy or mitophagy and mitochondria, where you want to recycle the old damage components. All that gets disrupted when there's an emergency. You know, when the first responders are outside, there's sirens blaring, things are going on. It's a state of emergency, which is good when there actually is an emergency, but it's bad when it's chronically activated. Um, and so if you have a dis. Regulated immune system, yeah, you're not going to respond well to outside insults or just normal daily life. Um, and so, yeah, in terms of cns, you know, and exercise recovery and everything, and psychological stress, all these things are impacted by oxidative stress and inflammation. And you have membranes around your nerve cells and things that can be damaged. And again, if those are healthy and not oxidized and not inflamed, they're going to function normally.
- [19:27]
Sam
I have been a fan of fasting, and I don't. I fast twice a year, and I'll do it anywhere from 72, so three days to five days. And really, the main purpose of me doing it, because it absolutely sucks, it just is not fun. But the main purpose for me is to trigger autophagy. And autophagy is basically these body's reaction to cleaning up the free radicals. Right. Like getting rid of all the zombie cells that are floating around that are not doing any good for the body. Is there a way to trigger autophagy without fasting that you are familiar with?
- [20:07]
David
Well, you can take astaxanthin. It's a great question. Yeah, it does impact the pathways like Mtor and others that the sirtuins that are involved in autophagy and then mitophagy, which is the same thing but in the mitochondria themselves. And so, yeah, so autophagy and mitophagy are really important because they clean up the old damaged components of your cells and make sure that you don't have a buildup of, you know, trash piling up on the streets. Basically you want to get all that taken away so things are nice and clean and orderly. But at the same time, you don't want that always happening because that takes away resources from, you know, building tissues and muscle and things like that. So you need to have a balance. And so sometimes things go in and chronically activate, you know, autophagy, but then are taking away from that muscle building. And so everything is a balance in the cells and in the body. And so a lot of agents or pharmaceutical interventions are chronically inhibiting something or chronically activating something which is not as nature intended. It's more about like let's, let's restore the balance, allow things to function normally. Because normally, you know, the, the, the body was designed to function in, in a way that was intended. But if we are, you know, prone to lifestyle factors, environmental factors, whatever it may be, things are not in the perfect balance. And so when we're out of balance, you know, out of optimization, then, you know, we're triggering these kind of age related disorders and, and conditions. And so it's all about just getting back into our kind of optimal state. Not doing something superhuman that's out of, you know, the ordinary. Let's just function normally. And that, that would be a big win for most people.
- [21:39]
Sam
Well, I also think that like, isn't it, I mean, I don't believe that humans were meant to consume the way we do. Right. I mean we, we consume whenever we want, all day long. Some people every as as much as they could possibly have. And so I think, you know, traditionally, thousands of years ago, I mean, we've been, I think in this form of Homo sapiens for, I think, close to 200,000 years, something like that, we went long stints of time without consuming food. Right. And so I think our bodies were way better at triggering things like autophagy and mitophagy. And now we have to do things in order to be able to clear out the system. Yeah. And so astaxanthin is definitely something that could, could potentially help there.
- [22:37]
David
Oh for sure. Yeah. There's definitely studies showing that for instance in worms we extended lifespan and the model, the, the mechanism that that lifespan was impacted was via autophagy based on some genes involved in autophagy. So yeah, we have, there's some really cool data there for sure. But like you said, I mean, you know, humans are evolved to survive and we used to hunt and forage and go without food and our bodies were built for that. And so now we have a different lifestyle where everything is accessible and whether it's food or it's information, whatever it is, it's just overload of everything and our bodies are just reacting to everything coming in. It's too much. So yeah, so this can hopefully help to mitigate some of that. But again, the big levers are of course the non sexy things like a healthy, nutritious, balanced diet, regular exercise. And it doesn't have to be ultramarathons, but it, it can, you know, and maybe those are probably not the most healthiest because that's probably a pretty extreme example. But daily exercise, you know, sweating every day, getting your heart rate up, lifting heavy things, you know, the basic things that people talk about that are really not that cool or they don't seem like some big breakthrough, but they are the things that if you do on a daily basis have that habit that's going to have the big impact, you know, sleep, of course, reducing stress, social connections, all these things are super important. And then if you can add on something like astaxanthin to help the cells, you know, fight off reactive oxygen species, inflammation, it actually astaxanthin helps to ramp up your endogenous antioxidant production as well. So it's kind of like a dual threat where it has a frontline, you know, protector against oxidative stress, but it also ramps up the production of your built in antioxidants as well.
- [24:20]
Sam
It's so interesting that I have not heard much about astaxanthin.
- [24:23]
David
Yeah, I know, it's like that's the thing that's been so challenging for us over the last 20 plus years is you know, like we, we helped to launch one of the first astaxanthin supplements back in the 99, 2000 timeframe and at that point no one had heard of it. Maybe a Few people in Hawaii and there were less than 200 peer reviewed papers, no human studies. Now, you know, even though in the mainstream it's not really well known, there's now more than 4,000 peer reviewed papers, 100 human clinical studies, really cool data showing that we extend life in multiple different models, including a major NIH program. All this amazing data. So it's kind of like in the research world, it's like a superstar in terms of international research and all these cool applications. And even now with AI, people want to go on and kind of ask about Astaxanthin and does it impact this area of brain health or heart health or joint health, muscle health, and how does it do that? There's so much amazing data out there for people to discover and dive into. But there hasn't been a major corporate push or some major company that has made a name for astaxanthin in the world. And we actually had pivoted from a supplement in the early 1999, 2000 timeframe to pharmaceutical development of the molecule for a decade, which is analogous to omega 3s where you have supplement versions and prescription versions. And so we are pursuing basically a prescription version of astaxanthin, which would essentially be high dose, high concentrated form, but for disease applications, where you actually go through the FDA drug clinical trial process and prove that it works. For, for instance, the indication we were pursuing was rethrombosis, which is blood clots. And we had studies and multiple animals species showing reduced blood clots. And we were going through that process. And then the 2008 financial crisis really disrupted our ability to continue financing that. If that hadn't happened, the timing was, was really horrible because we actually had the funding lined up to take us through proof of concept in humans. And the term sheet from the venture capital group was received in August of 2008 when literally when the financial crisis happened, the banks started going under and all of that. And so if that hadn't happened or had been six months off, we probably would have an astaxanthin drug on the market a decade ago. And if that had been the case, I think a lot more people would know about astaxanthin. But instead a lot of companies would, you know, wind up, you know, fold. And we kind of stuck with it and tried to keep the team intact and kind of carry forward. And ultimately we just decided to pivot and come back to the supplement space. But with that pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical knowledge and rigor of the manufacturing and the scientific understanding of how it works at the cellular level, the applications for heart health and brain health and all of these things. And then brought a supplement to. To the space sold in GNC stores. Did well there in Hawaii.
- [27:08]
Sam
And is this X3?
- [27:10]
David
It's a predecessor brand X3 that was not really consumer focused, was more like reaching out to doctors. It was more like a clinical doctor type of supplement brand. Something that would not be cool to a consumer but would not scare a doctor was kind of the marketing around it. And then after selling in brick and mortar and working with physicians, we wanted to have a better way to access a broader population, really get the word out beyond just kind of local touch points with doctors and local stores. And that. That was really the. The nexus for creating AX3 and which we created during the pandemic as a way to reach people on scale through, you know, social media, podcasts, and to have conversations that touch a lot of people and says that's really, you know, why we brought AX3. But it's essentially the brand to communicate the benefits of astaxanthin to the world.
- [27:55]
Sam
I love being able to introduce something like this to the audience. Right. Like I would argue, I would. I would imagine some of us listening to this podcast know astaxanthin.
- [28:05]
David
Yeah.
- [28:06]
Sam
But I would probably put a bet on not nearly as many people know about it that don't know about it.
- [28:13]
David
Oh yeah. Yeah. And even people that have heard about it may just think of it as, oh yeah, it's just some antioxidant. And I'm getting other antioxidants and they may not understand the difference that there's a. You know, astaxanthin is much more potent, but also it gets to all these critical locations in the cells. But also the fact that it spans and anchors across the membranes is very different because like vitamin E or beta carotene can get into your cellular membranes, but they don't span and anchor across it. They kind of can disrupt the membrane and the lipids and. And can even become pro oxidant in some cases. And so it's very different in terms of its structure and how it works in the cells.
- [28:49]
Sam
The only other antioxidant that I could potentially compare it to in terms of like not having a marketing strategy behind it or like, like a real marketing plan behind it, because that requires a lot of money. Right. Yeah. Is urolithin a. Right. Urolithin A sort of. Has started to make a name for itself through a supplement company. And so how do you. Have you done any research on urolithin
- [29:17]
David
A, we haven't, but it's probably a great complement to what we're doing. So urolithin A helps with mitochondrial function and mitophagy and astaxanthin also does that. But if you were to Google the chemical structures of urolithin A and astaxanthin, you'll just see that they're chemically very different. And so urolithin A wouldn't span the entire cellular membrane, lock into both inner and outer edges of the membrane, and be able to fight those free radicals both inside and outside the membrane. URL thin A impacts certain pathways that ultimately promote mitochondrial function and mitophagy and things like that. But it's just a different mechanism. So they probably would go, well, hand in hand. Although we haven't studied them together, I think they would be a good compliment.
- [30:03]
Sam
We need to get this out to more people. I mean, it sounds like this is a, a real sort of. I mean, you've been working on it for 25 years, so, you know, for you it's nothing new.
- [30:15]
David
Yeah, yeah. How have you not heard of it? No, but I mean, it's, it's. A lot of people, like you said, just haven't heard of it. Or maybe they've tried an older brand, you know, 10, 20 years ago if they happened to hear about it. But the version we have is much more pure because we actually, rather than growing the algae and trying to extract the astaxanthin from it, where you only get 10% astaxanthin and it's potentially inconsistent batch to batch or prone to contamination risks. Like on the big island of Hawaii, you have these open ponds and it's beautiful. You're in the Hawaiian sunlight and Hawaiian ocean breeze. But you also have the volcano nearby, so there's vogue. You have the airport nearby, so there's airplane fuel and vapor flying over. There are some groups that grow it entirely in enclosed tubes, but you're still only getting that extract of the algae that has 10% astaxantha or maybe 15 or 20% if you do extra, extra production, but it's not as consistent and as well absorbed. In our case, we took the pharmaceutical approach of manufacturing, where we produce it in the lab. Just make the active ingredient that you would get from the algae super pure, same structure, and then formulate it so they can be absorbed really well. And we got a group of human volunteers, gave them one of the leading forms of the algal source of astaxanthin, and then measured their Blood at multiple time points over 24 hours, sent them home for a week. So it all washed out. Their system, no longer detectable, gave them our form at the exact same dose. So we gave two 12 milligram capsules, measured their blood again, same group of people, so no chance of variation because it's a different group of people. And measure their blood again. And in this case, we got three times the amount of the astaxanthin absorbed at both the maximum concentration, but also the total exposure over the 24 hours. If you add up all of the concentrations at each time point. So that's from the same dose. It's just a matter of how much you absorb into your body versus pass through you. So that was a major difference.
- [32:07]
Sam
And so that's where the formulation comes in.
- [32:09]
David
Yeah, it's the purity and the formulation together. And the formulation we have is a water dispersible formulation, which is interesting because astaxanthin is a fat soluble molecule and you want to take it with a meal for optimal absorption. But when you put it in a water dispersible form, it allows it to disperse in the aqueous fluid of the gut, so it's nicely dispersed and then can be taken up with the fats in a meal really well. And so that's something that if you're getting three times more, it's actually going to have that much more benefit. And then on top of that, we were able to prove the efficacy of our formulation with the NIH in this. It's called the Interventions Testing Program, which people in the longevity space may have heard about. But it's this 20 year program that's conducted at three different institutions. It's like University of Michigan, the University of Texas in San Antonio, and then up at the Jackson Labs in Maine, they have thousands of mice each year that are used for this program. Ideally you would test in humans, but this is lifespan, and so it would take decades in humans to actually see how long you would live. And so mice are your best mammalian model to actually have something that you can conduct and get an answer on within a few years. But rather than using the genetically inbred laboratory mice that are typically used for basic research, which may replicate a certain type of disease, but otherwise don't kind of replicate something complex like biological aging. So they have a genetically heterogeneous type of mouse in this program. They have thousands of them each year for a new cohort, and they'll select promising longevity agents. I think urolithin A is actually in testing right now. But in the past, things like resveratrol were tested or omegas or green tea nr, you know, like an NAD precursor was tested. But this is the program that really put rapamycin on the map as a longevity agent that a lot of people that are like really trying to extend lifespan are excited about Rapamycin because it actually extends life. Even though it's an old repurposed drug that was used for like immunosuppression for organ transplants, it happens to extend life, but it has side effects and tolerability issues and, and other things that have worked in that ITP program, the Interventions Testing program from NIH are other repurposed drugs for like diabetes and you know, metabolic health and things based on data showing that we extended lifespan in worms, fossil fruit flies and yeast, and also increased FOXO3, which is an anti aging gene in mice. In a collaboration with the University of Hawaii, the NIH group asked us to supply our astaxanthin to them for testing. So we gave them our astaxanthin formulation back in 2019 and then supplied it every few months over the next few years. It turns out that we actually did extend the lifespan in that model by 12% with very high statistical significance. Um, and that is in the 20 year history, kind of in the top five of, of performers. Like other than rapamycin and a few other drugs, there there's been no other like supplement that's like safe for everyday use, tolerable, broadly accessible, that extended lifespan like this, but that also has these healthspan benefits where it impacts your heart and your brain and joints and liver and all these things. So that was a major, major breakthrough and that was just published in the last couple years and we were co authors on that paper. But again, this is a program that you can't like contract them to do it for you. You can't buy your way into it. They have to select you based on the data. And then we work with them to figure out the right dosing and give them the material. But then ultimately they ran the study and they published and the results are what they are. And so that was really exciting to see that, you know, not just astaxanthin but also the form that we gave them, our form of astaxanthin led to this lifespan extension which if you were to extrapolate that to humans, 12%, this is not maximal lifespan extension. It's not taking someone who's going to live from 90 to 100 or something. This is taking the average person that's living 75, 80 years maybe and giving them an extra decade potentially.
- [36:08]
Sam
So it would be an apples for apples potentially from the study on these mice to essentially apply to human beings. In the same way, if you were
- [36:21]
David
to extrapolate the lifespan of the mice, and for instance, they, they started dosing the astaxanthin when they were middle aged, they were 12 months of age in the mouse, which is like 40ish equivalent in humans. And if you start there, they live 12% longer over the median age. And so if you were to extrapolate that to humans, and again, it's not perfect to say mice to humans, but again, they took the best possible type of mouse, this genetically heterogeneous mouse that hopefully replicates something more complex like biological aging. And if you were to, say, give the average male a 12% life extension, then that would be like nine years. So it's not saying you for sure will have it, but if you were trying to make sense of, well, what does this mean potentially for humans, that's what it could translate to. And then ultimately you'd have to do human studies really to know. But what we do know is again, multiple different animal species. Worms, flies, yeast, now mice, and then cool data on mtor, sirtuins, ampk, all these pathways involved in aging that things like fasting impact and other agents like rapamycin or, you know, urolithin A and others that are popular in the longevity space are things that astaxanthin impacts as well. So it all supports that it probably impacts lifespan, but no one wants to just live longer if they're not actually healthier. Right. And so impacting lifespan, but with health span along the way, which you can infer based on all the data we have, like we have a human study that we conducted where we reduced not just LDL cholesterol, kind of like the bad cholesterol, but oxidized ldl, which is the quality of your ldl when it gets oxidized. It can lead to basically buildup and rupture of plaque in your arteries. And so we had reductions in that reductions in blood pressure. There's also other studies showing benefits on cognition like memory, information processing.
- [38:11]
Sam
I mean, there's like nothing. It doesn't touch. I mean, it's just, it's crazy.
- [38:14]
David
Yeah. And. But if you think about it not from the outside as, oh, these seem like all different things, like, oh, brain, it's because it's, yeah, it's at the cell, your level, but it's, it's, you know, Distributed throughout your whole body. So when it's in your brain, it crosses the blood brain barrier, it gets into your eyes, even so the blood retinal barrier, it's in your heart, your liver, your kidneys, it's all throughout your body and it's in the cells and it's in the mitochondria, the nucleus, the outer membrane of the cell. It's everywhere in the cells where it needs to be all throughout the body. And these are all the places where if oxidative stress or inflammation wreak havoc, they will manifest as different disorders. Could be cognitive issues, could be joint or muscle issues, heart issues. It's just a matter of where the pipe bursts, you know. And so it might be more susceptible here or there based on your own individual makeup and genetics and life style, et cetera. But if you are there to protect all these locations, you can have all of these potential benefits. And so we have human clinical data, like in cognitive health and heart health, liver health, there's, there's all this amazing data. And so that's why it can have all these healthspan benefits.
- [39:18]
Sam
Wow. I. So I'm trying to remember the doctor's name. Dr. David. Who's the longevity guy?
- [39:26]
David
Sinclair.
- [39:26]
Sam
Sinclair, yeah. So I remember when his book came out, I read his book and you alluded to it a bit. Longevity living longer could be awesome, right? Yeah, like it could be, yeah. But living longer in the state of someone who is not taking the ideal combination of, or not necessarily exogenous drugs or supplements, but potentially living a lifestyle that would lead to a longer, more prosperous, healthy life. Right. I feel like there was a, you know, the longevity conversation was very loud about three, four years ago and I was on the fence about it. Right. Like, do I feel it necessary to live to 110 years old if, like, is it worth it for me to spend a lot of energy like Brian Johnson, to live as longer than any human ever, if all I'm focused on is thinking about how long I'm going to live as opposed to how I am living?
- [40:45]
David
Oh yeah, no. And so, yeah, I think longevity should be reframed more from lifespan to healthspan
- [40:51]
Sam
and health span I like so much better.
- [40:53]
David
Yeah, yeah. And so with astaxanthin, again, it's not necessarily trying to take the person who's already going to live to a 90 or 100 and give them longer life. It's more about the average person allowing them to live a little bit longer. But that's almost just like a cherry on top because the real benefit is, is the health span. And so however long you are going to live, hopefully it's at a much higher level. And it's not something that you just think about when you're in your 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, it starts at now. Whatever age you are, that trajectory is impacted based on your decisions now. And so lifestyle supplementation, all of these things, if you can get on that right path, you can just live at a healthier, higher level throughout life. And so, I mean, ideally you would basically be at a high level and then fall off a cliff, right? I mean, that's essentially it versus this long decline, you know, into, you know, kind of mental and cognitive and physical, you know, kind of distress and then ultimately passing away. And you want to try to be as healthy as possible for as long as possible.
- [41:54]
Sam
Do you? I mean, obviously you're so deep, deeply entrenched in this world. Do you foresee human lifespan evolving based on things that we're exploring and researching now?
- [42:09]
David
Well, I think if, again, kind of going back to the habits of everything, like, if there are ways for people to actually get more on top of all the things that really are the major levers, like again, like diet, exercise, stress, sleep, social connections, proper supplementation, tracking their biomarkers and all their inputs from the wearables, whatever it may be, you know, kind of optimizing all of that, that will actually extend lifespan across the population, you know, because we're being impacted already by a lot of just poor decisions or poor habits anyways. And so if we just optimize all of that, that'll have a pretty impressive impact on lifespan, but also healthspan. And so I think in terms of, like, public health care costs, contribution to society overall fulfillment, all of these things will be improved if people are healthier, even if they didn't live longer, if they were just healthier. But I think as a byproduct of being healthier, you're going to end up living longer anyway. But that is different than saying, okay, but now everyone lives from 80 or 90 or 100 to like 120 or 130. But I do think there are advances in the space that, you know, maybe certain molecules that can help to just push, you know, move the needle a little bit in the right direction. But you still have to be careful because if you move something too far, you know, there can be a pendulum of something else, you know, that is, is now, you know, kind of increase or decrease in a way that's not natural or normal. But I know for Instance, people like David Sinclair are doing work to try to like actually like reverse aging or some of the impacts which again, you know, there are mammals that live very long and some that don't live that long. And so there are. Nature has came up with a way for certain types of, you know, you know, organisms to live very long lives. And so if we can figure out what is happening there and impact that, then yeah, it probably is possible to extend our lifespan. How much? And, and I think like people like Brian Johnson's approach as well. If I can just give myself an extra however many years, then I can live long enough for the next major breakthrough and then that'll give me a little bit more and then you kind of have that longevity escape velocity where you just kind of incrementally keep living long enough for the next thing to help you take another step and then ultimately you live however long. But I think a lot of people philosophically maybe don't want to live forever. It depends on probably your thoughts on afterlife and everything. And I guess I, I don't really get too caught up in, in that. I more just think about, we know what we have here. Let's try to optimize what we have and you know, kind of, you know, have the best possible fulfillment in life and kind of for ourselves and for others. And so I think being the healthiest we can is going to be the best, you know, first step for everything.
- [44:43]
Sam
There was video captured not long ago of I believe it's the Nordic shark or there was a shark that they found super deep that they clocked at like almost 400 years old.
- [44:57]
David
Yeah, some of these marine species are
- [44:59]
Sam
crazy but it's not just like a, like a microscope. It's, it's like a real thing like a 40 foot long shark. Right. That they were able to determine was hundreds of years old, like close to, I think it was like 360something years old.
- [45:17]
David
Greenland shark.
- [45:17]
Sam
Yeah, Greenland shark. That's exactly what it is, the Greenland shark shark. And so how like obviously super deep body has been able to acclimate to an enormous amount of pressure.
- [45:35]
David
Could be slow metabolism.
- [45:36]
Sam
Slow metabolism, very cold water.
- [45:38]
David
They probably have some astaxanthin in their diet.
- [45:42]
Sam
I would imagine so. Right.
- [45:44]
David
Yeah, I mean it's prevalent. You know, krill habits of whales are consuming it and, and so, so it's definitely out there but I think it's probably, yeah based on their metabolism and what's happening in their cells that you know they are, they are doing, they are hyper efficient at probably Autophagy and mitophagy and you know, not kind of burning through things. And basically, if you can, it's like a car, like if you can maintain it, it can run a long time. But if you don't maintain it, well, you know, you can have two cars, one that is 40 years old, that is a wreck, and then one that is amazing. And it's, you know, people are, you know, collecting it.
- [46:17]
Sam
Right.
- [46:17]
David
And so it's the same type of thing where I think biologically, you know, if you have either endogenous or exogenous, you know, ways to maintain, then you can go a long ways. And so that one in that state, I think the environment is allowing it to be preserved and maintained where it's not exposed to the types of stresses that are damaging, you know, its cells and its function. Because if things can just operate like normally, they'll just keep going. You know, it's just, it's like a biological machine that can break down.
- [46:43]
Sam
I, I like you brought up the, the analogy of the car, right. Like you can have a 1966, 67 Chevy Nova or a Chevelle that's sitting in a junkyard somewhere. Yep. And then you can have one that's super pristine. Right. My wife is an equestrian. And you know, some of these horses are the same horse, thoroughbred horse, that at one moment in their Life are worth $600,000. And if they don't make the cut, yeah, it's worth about 15,000.
- [47:31]
David
Right.
- [47:32]
Sam
Same horse, same year. Right. And so when I think about it, right, like some of these, you know, we, I have, I think the people that I am, the circles that I've run in over the last probably 10, 15 years. It's a hard charging circle of people, right. Entrepreneurs, athletes. And when you think about it like movement is, is, is, is medicine, but too much movement can't be like you would probably sooner be the rusty Chevelle in a junkyard as opposed to the. Because when you think about the difference between the rusty Chevelle and the, the pristine Chevelle. The pristine Chevelle has been sitting in a, in a temperature controlled garage. Yeah, they change the oil even they, they don't drive the thing much.
- [48:29]
David
I think they're more like race cars where they're high performance. They get, you know, like so a high performance. You know, human is probably, yeah, they're putting themselves under a lot of stress, but they're also hopefully maintaining. And so if you look at race cars, they get used and abused, but they also get service and rebuilt and
- [48:45]
Sam
you know, the best of the best are working on them.
- [48:47]
David
Yeah, yeah. And so it's, it's, it's different than someone that's just, you know, in a cardiogenic chamber just being preserved, you know, but, but I think, yeah, it's a matter of are you doing what is appropriate based on your lifestyle to maintain and repair.
- [49:03]
Sam
And so that's why I also, and I think, and I've been talking about this a fair bit and I, and I would love to be able to actually do it and I, and I, and I say I would love to be able to do it. I know I can do it, but it's just hard, I do believe, because I am a relatively hard charging human between being an entrepreneur and athlete, you know, got kids w. The whole thing, recovering as much as I charge. Right. So what that would mean for me in a very dumbed down version is workout Monday, recovery on Tuesday, workout Wednesday, recovery on Thursday, workout Friday, recovery on Saturday. And that would be a good way to sustain a lifestyle of harder charging existence.
- [49:50]
David
Right.
- [49:51]
Sam
I would imagine it is like that. That philosophy is hard to, is hard to say to someone who has the mindset of go, go, go, go, go every day.
- [50:02]
David
Yeah.
- [50:03]
Sam
So what would you say to that person? You being now, you know, looking at the human body, understanding, you know, oxidative stress and inflammation and trying to, or, or having introduced a product that could really help combat some of those things, what would you say to the, to the human that is a high performer but doesn't give themselves enough time to actually recover?
- [50:29]
David
Well, rest and recovery are a huge part of performance. And so if you just keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, you're going to either burn out or get injured and then you have major setbacks. And so if you want to keep making incremental gains and progress, you have to just be in the game. And so you have to take appropriate rest. But it doesn't necessarily mean doing nothing. You could mix things up and do something different. So you're not lifting heavy two days in a row, you're doing something, you know, high intensity or other types of cardio or whatever it may be, you're kind of changing things up or even if it's work related, I mean, just keeping things more dynamic versus pushing so hard that you burn out mentally or physically, but then also having the right habits in place for all of the other important things, you can't, you know, power your way through just on, you know, energy drinks and, and everything. Like you need to take the right decisions in Terms of diet, exercise, and then things like astaxanthin can really help your body to, you know, sleep better. So now you're recovering more efficiently and effectively in the same period of time so that you can get back and train or perform in whatever way. Like, for instance, in that study with the competitive cyclists, they also looked at muscle damage as measured by things that basically leak out from the muscle cells when they're damaged into the bloodstream. It can be measured, and those were reduced. And so you're getting reduced muscle damage as well. So therefore there's less repair and recovery, you know, that otherwise would be needed so that the next day you can then perform that much better. So I think it's important to find the things that, you know can help you recover and repair better, like astaxanthin and other things, but also taking those right steps, you know, on the big levers, lifestyle, et cetera. But then, yeah, taking that rest when you can. But if you just have to do something, then at least mix it up in some way where you're not insulting your body repeatedly with the same thing. Cause then that's when you're gonna start to break down, I think.
- [52:18]
Sam
Do you have a morning routine?
- [52:20]
David
I do, yeah. It's always kind of constantly evolving a little bit, like it is for everyone. But I definitely, you know, just get up basics, brush teeth, go to the bathroom, et cetera. But hop in the shower, just quick rinse, ideally cold water to start, and then I'll. I'll make it warmer after, but at least get that little refreshing jolt. Um, you know, I don't have a cold plunge or anything like that. I mean, it would probably be nice to do that. But if I'm feeling really extra zealous, I may even do, like, a little ice bath bowl for the face if I really want to wake up. If I have time, a little bit of mindfulness or maybe within those transitional moments, something like the waking up app from Sam Harris is like a good daily, you know, session. And then I'll. I'll walk the dogs. And if I can work out either at home, like get on the rower or go outside and work out, then, yeah, come back and kind of start working. But the major thing is not getting up and jumping on the phone right away and reacting. Because it used to be like, I look and see, like, what the messages were run to the computer. And then before I know it, it's like, noon. I haven't drank anything. I'm not hydrated, and. Which, by the way. Oh, yeah, Also, when I get up after showering, I normally have, like, some electrolytes and probably like 24 ounces of water. Just kind of hydrate. Well, but, yeah, if in the past I may have just got up, see emergencies and being in Hawaii, we're so many hours behind the US and the rest of the world that you're waking up to a lot of things normally, and so it's easy to react. And then you're just at the computer, you know, not hydrated, haven't eaten anything, haven't worked out, haven't brushed teeth, haven't showered. It's just. You feel gross and half the day is gone, and you. And you've just reacted, and it's not intentional. It's not productive necessarily. So kind of having that routine to kind of get on top of things and feel like you've accomplished something, but also just physically, you know, being hydrated, getting electrolytes, getting some exercise, getting some sunlight, walking the dogs, all these things. Exercising is a great way to start. And then once I am working, just being, you know, focused and not multitasking, you know, just the opposite of fragmentation, you know, that. Just focus, get things done, think deeply, clearly, and then move on. You know, that. That, I think is super important.
- [54:37]
Sam
What about evening routine?
- [54:39]
David
Kind of. Yeah, just hanging out with. With the wife, with the dogs, just relaxing. I do try to shower always before bed, even if I feel generally clean or if I worked out earlier, shower. It's just, I think, you know, being clean before bed, but also kind of the heat kind of elevates the body temp. And then when you're in bed and you have a nice, cool, dark room, you kind of cool down and it reduces the heart rate and allows you to sleep faster and fuller. So obviously, trying not to be on social media or screens, you know, is like the common thing, but it is hard. But, you know, try to not do that as much as possible. So at least by the time you're kind of showering, getting ready for bed, you're off the phone and then kind of getting in and trying to just fall asleep in a nice, cool, dark room. So that's. That's the main thing. I know a lot of people have routines where they're journaling and doing other approaches. I haven't done that, but at least for me, this is what seems to work.
- [55:38]
Sam
Sounds pretty damn good.
- [55:40]
David
Yeah.
- [55:40]
Sam
I like the hot shower before bed.
- [55:42]
David
It does.
- [55:42]
Sam
I've heard that a number of times.
- [55:43]
David
Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's. I mean, not only does it feel good. But I think scientifically, biologically it is important because the body temp goes up and then you want to have the room nice and cool and then. But when the body has that change in body temperature, the heart rate drops and then that what is, that's what kind of helps you fall asleep and stay asleep. And so I think that does make a lot of sense.
- [56:04]
Sam
Where can the audience find Astaxanthine?
- [56:08]
David
Yeah, well we are at AX3 Life. Astaxanthin is everywhere and they can go on Amazon and buy it. But again you, you'll get a version that is potentially three times less bioavailable or less absorbed, less pure than ours. And so if they want to try ours, it is a life again. I think the world would be a healthier, better place if everyone took astaxanthin, even if it's not from us. So again, you can get it from Amazon or at your health food store or nutritional stores, et cetera. But yeah, check us out, eggs3life website, Instagram, et cetera and just dive in. And now with access to research, people can learn so much on their own. And you know, you can go to pubmed which is like the, you know, national Library of Medicines archive of all these, you know, scientific literature. But unless you're a scientist or you know, medical professional, that can be overwhelming to look at peer reviewed scientific papers and make sense of them. And even if you're reading through it, knowing it is this representative, all of the totality of evidence that can be challenging. So certainly I don't discourage people from going through the peer reviewed papers if they really want to do a deep dive. But, but now with the advances in AI, it's like it used to be where I used to go and ask about Astaxanthin and does it do this or that and just to see if it is correct and used to be hallucinating and giving me like made up references and I'd go to PubMed and the paper wasn't actually there. I'm like, wow, this is crazy. But now in the last couple years it's much better. And I found much better, you know, kind of confidence in the, what the, whether it's ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever, you know, kind of giving responses on what astaxanthin does, how it works in the cells, the benefits for, you know, muscles, brain, heart, whatever it may be, and then linking to real papers that are not made up. That has come a long way. And so I think it allows people to actually learn A lot more about it. And so if they can learn about it initially on a podcast like this or on others and then do a little more research and then try it themselves, I think that would be great. And, and the important thing, like I mentioned, is you take it with a meal to promote absorption. You give yourself a few months for it to be properly absorbed and, and into your system and having an impact. Some people will feel benefits within days or weeks, even hours in some cases for some people. But you want to give this time. And again, you don't make a decision on this, just like same thing on an omega or a multivitamin or probiotic, like within a few days, that this is meant to be onboard all the time, daily habit. And then after a few months, you can always actually adjust your dose up or down. And there's a lot of safety and there's been really high dose long term studies showing exceptional safety. So you can increase your dose or decrease it and see if you have the same benefit improved. You know, did it get worse or did it get better? And you can also measure your biomarkers. You can look at your cholesterol levels, you can look at inflammatory biomarkers like HSRP or your other inflammatory cytokines, measures of oxidative stress. And if those go up or down, you can try to adjust your dose accordingly. So that's how you can kind of see if it's working.
- [59:10]
Sam
David, this was awesome, man. I am like, you know, for me, the podcast we've been, we haven't missed a week of podcasting in three and a half years. I think we put a podcast out if. And now we're putting out two every week. And one of the greatest pieces of this for me is being able to just bring value to our community, the creatures community, right? And we do that in a number of ways. One is we talk about habits, rituals and routines so that people can try things, right? Try things that don't cost them a lot of money or any money at all to potentially help optimize their life. Specifically in the morning, in the evening. And then, you know, I do try to get some like organizational habits or techniques that people use throughout the day to sort of keep them focused. But then the other way we bring value is like bringing on experts like you who have something to introduce to the community that they potentially have not heard of before. And so I got really, really excited when I read about you and Astaxanthin because I hadn't heard of it before. And when I read about it, I said to Lindsay on our team, I was like, okay, let's get this, let's get David on. Because I think, you know, there's, there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of noise in the supplement world.
- [60:31]
David
Right.
- [60:32]
Sam
And I, I am a supplement guy. I mean, you know, like you mentioned, first and foremost, if you don't have your movement, your nutrition, your sleep in check, it doesn't really matter.
- [60:47]
David
You're not going to supplement your way out of it.
- [60:49]
Sam
Right. It doesn't really matter. However, if you do, and I would say a vast majority of the people that listen to this podcast either do or are on their way getting there. Introducing supplementation can really push them over the line in a direct or not necessarily over the line, but, but, but can help optimize their journey further than what just the basics can do. And so something like astaxanthin and, and for me too, you know, I have chronic Lyme disease. My immune system is under attack like at all times. And so I'm always looking for things to introduce that could potentially, you know, fight the, the constant affliction my immune system is, is put through.
- [61:38]
David
Yeah.
- [61:39]
Sam
So, man, I can't thank you enough. And, and, and I'll do everything I can to help talk about acid, acidanthin, because I think it's, I mean, you're not coming on here and saying, hey, this is something that I came up with, believe me. You're coming on here and saying, hey, this is something that I learned about when I was in high school and I've become obsessed with it and there is an enormous amount of study on it and science behind it and there are real benefits to what I've dedicated my life to introducing to the rest of the world.
- [62:11]
David
Exactly. Yeah. And people can go and dive in themselves and kind of the more you dig, the more interesting it is for most people. And we've attracted key opinion leaders that are major, major top scientists in, in the world that are super excited about this as well. And so, yeah, the biggest limitation on why isn't this yet a pharmaceutical or why isn't this just a mainstream supplement has been more just resource limitation to just. It costs money to take something through the drug development process or take something to market as a huge branded supplement. So it just takes time and money to, to make those things happen. And so we found that podcasts have been a great way to create awareness and have great conversations because, you know, a 30 second ad or sitting on a shelf somewhere, no one's going to know what it is, you know, and so it takes some time. And so people like you that can recognize, wow, this is cool. I haven't heard about it. Even though I'm in the space, let's, you know, dig in. And that's really where there's so much value. And just to touch on your point about, you know, optimizing all the other pillars, if you were to say, well, I'll just get this from my diet, you, you could get it from salmon, you know, which you do, but you'd have to eat like a pound of sockeye salmon or like several pounds of farm raised salmon of Atlantic salmon to get the same amount as just one capsule of ours. And most people take anywhere from one to two or even four or more capsules a day. So it's just, it's not feasible to eat that much salmon every day or, or financially.
- [63:27]
Sam
Response.
- [63:28]
David
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So. So that's one of those things where again, it, it does make sense in this case to supplement. And because it works in a way that is not like other things, again, that chronically inhibit or activate certain things, it kind of restores balance and homeostasis in the cells. So it's like, let's just let the cells function normally and optimally and, you know, and not do something that is out of the ordinary.
- [63:49]
Sam
You know, I, I could, I kind of can correlate what you're doing with astaxanthin to a business that I launched in 2015 called Seymours. And I launched a sustainable seafood restaurant and I scaled it. Everybody thought I was crazy because I, my goal was to introduce abundant, underutilized species of fish that swam local to the New York market. And people were like, you're like fresh from the Hudson. No, no, people, people, you know, species of fish that nobody's heard of. Bluefish, blackfish, tauto, porgy. You know, some people have heard of monkfish, but monkfish happen to be abundant and relatively underutilized Tile fish. Like all these species of fish that I actually, I grew up fishing on Sundays. Like, I'm passionate fishermen. All these fish that I grew up eating and just could not understand why you'd never see them on menus in New York. And it's all marketing. Yeah, Right. Like tuna is a large fish. Right. It's fatty, it's a large fish. And one person breaks down a tuna. That person now has, depending on the size of the tuna, anywhere from 40 to 400 servings, right?
- [65:03]
David
Yeah.
- [65:04]
Sam
You break down a porgy, same person, fast as hell. Two servings.
- [65:10]
David
Yeah.
- [65:10]
Sam
Right. So, like the smart fish. Fish people were like, we're gonna put all of our money behind tuna.
- [65:16]
David
Yeah.
- [65:17]
Sam
And we could care less about. Because first of all, nobody wants to eat whole fish. Right. So like, forget about that. It's just, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a financial thing.
- [65:27]
David
Totally.
- [65:28]
Sam
You know, and so I was battling that similarly to the way you're battling, you know, some of these bigger. These bigger, more highly marketed, more, More well funded supplements.
- [65:41]
David
Yeah. Even things like resveratrol, which, you know, came out of the early Sinclair research and a lot of hype around the sirtuin pathways and everything. Ultimately, resveratrol didn't really pan out scientifically. GSK had acquired a company that they formed for like hundreds of millions of dollars. They ended up shelving the program because the science wasn't really panning out. Not to say that there wasn't underlying mechanisms that were valuable, but nevertheless, resveratrol has been a big name for decades now. Even though scientifically it didn't work in the NIH ITP longevity program. It's not super well absorbed when people try to make supplement forms and things. And so things like astaxanthin, which have much stronger science, just haven't had some major, you know, exposure like that. Like some major pharma, you know, acquisition deal or some Nobel laureates that founded a company around it, like in the NAD space or whatever it may be. There just hasn't been some major, you know, push. And so hopefully this is more of like an underground movement here. But we can create awareness and then make this something.
- [66:41]
Sam
Let's try to get it there.
- [66:42]
David
It's just part of it. It's part of the longevity conversation. It's part of Omega's, whatever, like a foundational supplement that everyone takes because there are studies in school age children showing benefits on digital eye strain, old people looking at immune health and joint health, you know, kind of younger adults in. In, you know, competitive cycling and other, you know, athletics. Middle age for cardiovascular health. I mean, it's just all over the board. So this is something that can benefit everyone.
- [67:06]
Sam
Dude, this is awesome. You've listened this far. If you have not heard of astaxanthin, this would be a good opportunity to do a little research. Ax3 Life is where David sells astaxanthin and his formula is going to absorb three times more than probably most of the other stuff that's out there. So I would highly recommend giving a shot. I.
- [67:31]
David
This is it right here.
- [67:33]
Sam
I am super pumped to add this to my supplementation regimen. All the things that we just discussed you can research, but the fact that this is not all over the place is honestly, it's a shame. And so tell your friends, tell your family, share this podcast with everyone because I think if this week I can impact five people to start taking Astaxanthin.
- [68:04]
Sponsor/Host Voice
And honestly, that's never the purpose of
- [68:06]
Sam
this podcast, to go get you to go try to go spend money. But this sounds like something we should all be exploring and most likely taking. And so that is definitely going to be me. And I would encourage you to give it a shot or at least do the research. Because healthspan is something that I am deeply, not only interested in, but invested in. Healthspan is something I am deeply invested in. I have been for the last 20 years of my life. I've spent most of my adult life really investing in ways to live a happier, healthier existence. And I'm excited to now have found something brand new that I had not heard of and hopefully introducing to you something brand new that you have not heard of that could optimize your life. Do me a favor, share the podcast. If you're feeling generous, a five star rating and review would be incredible. Thank you guys so much for subscribing to the Creatures of Habit podcast. And if you have any questions or you want to get a hold of David, write a comment below and we're going to link to AX3 life in the show Notes. I appreciate you guys so, so much for being on this journey with us. Until the next one. Pe. Sam.