← Kreatures Of Habit Podcast 
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- [00:00]
A
We have to look at our discomfort with someone else's discomfort. We have to look at the ways that we are actually trying to problem solve and fix for them because we want to make them feel better. That's why we're doing it. Right. And of course it comes from a good place. But we also know logically, especially because we have kids, that so much of our growth comes from the struggle. You have to be able to look at yourself and say, I'm actually doing this for them, more for me than for them. I'm uncomfortable with them struggling. So it's actually not about them struggling. I'm trying to make myself feel better. But it's the same thing with our kids. If I swoop in every time my daughter's having a problem, she's never gonna feel like she's self sufficient. Right. I have to let her struggle to a certain extent. When somebody comes to you with anything, zip it. And the very first thing you say to them is that kind of script that we've all heard, which is, do you want me to just listen or do you want me to give you feedback? Allow them to tell you what they need. Don't assume that you know what they need.
- [00:58]
B
An entrepreneur straight out of New York City. Michael Chernow. What's cracking? Vanessa, thank you for being here.
- [01:13]
A
Thank you, Michael, for having me.
- [01:15]
B
You know, we were just talking before the cameras started rolling about kind of the virality when someone in a long term relationship or a marriage or just talking about relationships in general, say something potentially controversial, something that could potentially sting someone reading it and make that person want to defend themselves or defend their routine or defend their stance on it, which I honestly think is fine. I do believe that it's fair for everyone to kind of share their opinions, especially when it comes to marriage. And I've been married almost 20 years and I've been with my wife 20. Well, we're married. Celebrated 18 years in June. We're together almost 21 years. And so I've got like a little bit of experience here, you know, like half of my life, basically. And so I kind of want to dive into. I want to talk about the mother's myth. So congrats on launching that book.
- [02:23]
A
Thank you.
- [02:24]
B
But I also want to talk about relationships in general. I know that you are a therapist, you are a facilitator, you host retreats, you have your own podcast. You talk a lot about this stuff. And so I think what would be really helpful on top of all that is to understand the differences in the brain of the man and the woman. When it comes to communication, do you.
- [02:52]
A
Know, I just thought you so funny. So I'm doing a bunch of podcasts for the book. I've had a handful of podcasts with male hosts and more with female hosts. And I have to tell you, you're probably the fourth or fifth podcast I've done with a male host. And everybody that's male wants to talk about the difference between men and women's braids. So maybe that in and of itself is a difference that we can talk about. Like, the curiosity I find that men have about, like. Yeah, but tell me how we're really different, because I think it. I mean, I'm laughing, but there's something about it. I think, and I'm guessing maybe tell me if I'm wrong, that this will help you understand something in a way when you're like, okay, it clicks. Like, it makes sense. This is the difference. And so now I can see it in a different way. Like, is that helpful, do you think?
- [03:35]
B
Well, you know, like, what I. The conclusion that I kind of come to is that, like anything in life, relationships are not linear. No, right.
- [03:44]
A
Absolutely not.
- [03:45]
B
And I think we're sort of groomed through media whatever, to believe that relationships are just linear life. Yeah, life is linear. Right. And when something goes wrong, an argument, a fight, a massive, like, surfacing of something, and I'm only speaking for myself here, my first thought is typically catastrophic.
- [04:11]
A
Yeah, right.
- [04:12]
B
It's catastrophic. Like, this is it. This is over. This is the one that's gonna push us over the edge. And what I've kind of, like, been getting better at, because full transparency, my wife and I, we really don't argue a lot. And that's the truth. And. And that's been our truth for the last 20 years. Like, we just don't. We argue. No doubt. But it's not a lot, and I'm grateful for that. But I will say that, you know, I believe the downfall, potential catalyst to an argument turning into a fight, turning into a much bigger situation is our reaction to that first thought.
- [04:59]
A
Yeah, agreed. Also, I would say. Well, I guess there's two questions that are coming up. The therapist in me wants to know, did you see your parents argue when you were younger?
- [05:07]
B
Oh, yes.
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A
You did.
- [05:08]
B
Like, actually, no arguing.
- [05:11]
A
Right.
- [05:12]
B
It's all, like, fighting. Level 10 fight.
- [05:15]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So to me, it would make sense that your go to is, this is it, it's over. That's such a deeply wired thing in you that your nervous system's response to conflict is an immediate like, well, obviously this is over now, right? Because everything internally for you, even if it's an argument that's maybe a level two, internally, it feels like a 10. Because that's really all you saw growing up. You didn't see healthy conflict modeled, which most of us didn't, by the way, in whatever spectrum we're talking about here. But, you know, I, being the woman in my also heterosexual dynamic, I'm the one that has that mentality. So the smallest argument, the smallest fight I go to, well, this is it. This is going to be the one that breaks it. And so the way that I've experienced this as a therapist is that tends to be a little bit more attached to your attachment style, right? Like how you attach to your primary caregivers growing up, if you tend to be the one that swings a little bit more avoidant, a little bit more hyper individual, a little bit more like, I got this, I'm good on my own. But of course, you love your partner and you want to be in relationship, but that can be like your base level. A lot of times, you're the one that catastrophizes to like, well, this is it more, because it's like a defense for your system to be like, there's something about that that helps us put it in a box and be like, it's okay, this is it. I guess this is over now.
- [06:44]
B
Makes an enormous amount of sense. Yep, that makes an enormous amount of sense to make, you know, to really bring as much engagement to this and to make it as interesting to me as possible, because I, you know, the beauty of being a podcast host is that I get to answer a lot of questions, or I get to answer, potentially answer a lot of questions that are kicking around in my brain. I do think that talking about relationships is probably the best route, and I know that that's something that you focus on. So, like, really, I would imagine that you've done some research on the difference between male and female minds. And, you know, you hear often, right? Like, as a husband, don't try to fix your wife. Don't try to fix her problems. Don't try to fix. Don't try to fix. Just be supportive. That's what they want. They come to you with a problem. They're not looking for you to all of a sudden roll up your sleeves and just say, okay, this is how we do it, right?
- [07:51]
A
Unless they're asking for it, right?
- [07:53]
B
So what is that all about?
- [07:56]
A
So obviously there are biological differences between men and women, clearly, right? But I do believe that a lot of what you're talking about is not necessarily biological. I think it's social. I think it's the ways that we've been raised. I think it's the society that we live in. Because it's not that one brain works in a more linear way than the other. It's that our culture has told us that linear is better than circular, masculine is better than feminine. And so we all, male or female, we all have both masculine and feminine energetics. But unfortunately, in our culture, regardless of gender, we've been taught that the more masculine energetic. So linear, compartmentalized, like, contained. Things are black and white. They make sense things. That's really what's prized in our society. Right. So this idea of, like, go with the flow, be more emotional, empathic, intuitive, creative. Right? That stuff is not prized as much in our society. And so a lot of times for men in particular, it's like a muscle that gets really strengthened to the detriment of the one that gets kind of atrophied, which is more of the, like, being attuned, being able to emote in a healthy way, being able to sit in someone's discomfort without trying to fix it. These are emotional skills. And so if you don't build them, understandably, you're not gonna really reach for them.
- [09:20]
B
You know, so let's just use an ins. For instance, wife comes to husband and says, I am. You know, I've been taking care of the kids for the last 10 years. I'm using this as a personal, you know, example. You know, we've agreed that I was gonna stop working. I was gonna be a mom at home. It's time for me to get back to work. I really wanna get back to work. And I'm struggling with trying to figure out what I wanna do. My response is, well, let's figure it out. And, you know, and sometimes my wife is totally receptive to that. And sometimes my wife is like, no, like, I don't want to do that.
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A
I don't want you to fix it.
- [10:05]
B
I don't want you to fix it. So what would be, like, a healthy response in that? Like, maybe not. Like, let's just. Let's look at that situation holistically and try to figure out, like, okay, how should. How should a male in a heterosexual relationship respond to that?
- [10:28]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that I would say actually the same thing to a male that I would say to some of my female clients that struggle with the same thing, which is, we have to look at Our discomfort with someone else's discomfort. We have to look at the ways that we are actually trying to problem solve and fix for them because we want to make them feel better. That's why we're doing it. Right. And of course, it comes from a good place. But we also know logically, especially because we have kids, that so much of our growth comes from the struggle. So much of what happens when I get a sense of pride, when I get a sense of like, oh, this is who I am, or like, accomplishment, right? That comes from me figuring it out myself, struggling a bit, not being saved by anybody else, Right? And so I oftentimes will say to somebody, you have to be able to look at yourself and say, I'm actually doing this for them, more for me than for them. I'm uncomfortable with them struggling. So it's actually not about them struggling. I'm trying to make myself feel better, which a lot of times is like a. Like a cringy kind of reality to face. But it's the same thing with our kids. If I swoop in every time my daughter's having a problem, she's never gonna feel like she's self sufficient, right? I have to let her struggle to a certain extent. And it's the same thing with our partners. So I often say, as simple and silly as it sounds, when somebody comes to you with anything, zip it. And the very first thing you say to them is that. That kind of script that we've all heard, which is, do you want me to just listen or do you want me to give you feedback? Allow them to tell you what they need. Don't assume that you know what they need because they might want you to fix it.
- [12:02]
B
But is that a. So that. So is that a, like, quote, unquote, standard kind of response?
- [12:08]
A
It is, it is, it is.
- [12:10]
B
And you don't think that that puts somebody on the spot or makes them feel a little defensive, being like, oh, like, you know.
- [12:18]
A
Well, I guess my question would be, like, why would they get defensive by you asking them, what is it that you need from me in this moment?
- [12:24]
B
Okay, maybe I would. Maybe I would refrain. Like, I would just write your own language. What can I do for you right now?
- [12:31]
A
Yeah, what is it that you need for me to be supportive right now? You know, is that just to, like, hear you out so I can be a sounding board? Or is it for me to, like, help you problem solve? And to me, that doesn't sound like condescending. It sounds like I'm honoring what you're Asking me for, you know, I want to be of support to you. This isn't about me, this is about you. So you tell me how I can support you. And sure, it'll be clunky in the beginning, especially if that's not our go to, you know, but I have found that can be the gateway to some really beautiful conversations.
- [13:00]
B
Actually, two things I want to make sure that we don't forget about this because I think you mentioned your children and if you run to the rescue every single time, it's going to be hard for them to understand what it means to have to fight for something, right? So I want to come back to that because I think that that is a very. I've put, I've shared a lot about that, you know, like me just not every single time something happens, running over to my kids and giving them a big hug and telling them it's going to be okay. Like, I would much rather them pick themselves up off the ground if I know that they didn't actually really get hurt, right. And shake it off. And then I'll be like, good, you know, way to go, dude. But I want to talk about like a healthy argument and what that could, should look like. You know, if, if, if you engage in, in, if there is something that you are not seeing eye to eye on which, you know, two different brains, two different, you know, happens all the time. What would be a, if you feel like an argument is on the horizon, is there like a sop for that? Like, is there a, like a, like a, is there something that recommend for a couple that is about to embark on a argument, debate, potentially escalated fight?
- [14:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I guess this could go many different ways because it probably depends on the two people that we're talking about, right? Like, what's their patterns? What's their kind of attachment struggles? What's their. Like what are they coming into conflict with typically? Because oftentimes when I'm working with couples, there's a pattern, right? So we're trying to usually unwind an unhealthy pattern in order to even then start laying the bricks for a healthy pattern. And so understanding kind of how each person ticks and why is really important. So so much of the work that I do, individual and couples, is around understanding our more codependent ways of relating to one another and having that be the jump off point before we then say, okay, what is healthy relationshiping like look like? And so in saying that, one thing I would say is I'm a big fan of asking yourself what's my 100% always. Every single situation, there's something you can own. Now, I'm not saying you own more than what's yours, right? Because you're only 50% of a dynamic. But in every dynamic, you can still own something. It can be your 100%. Right, which is a term from the 12 step programs. So I think if you go into any conflict, first and foremost, knowing, okay, it doesn't diminish my personhood by accepting my responsibility, which is hard for a lot of people. That is a really healthy, to use that term, healthy jump off point for any conflict is like, I'm not the victim. It's not a, you're 100% and I'm a 0% in this dynamic. It's like, no, what can I own? Right? And so then what happens is when you're thinking that way, you're going into a conflict. You know, you've heard this idea of like, it's us against the thing, not us against each other. That thinking tends to orient you more that way. Like, it's not me against my partner, it's me saying, oh, yeah, okay, this is the thing that I can own. Now let's address it. Right, and you too. Like, you're the thing that you can own. Let's address it. So I guess that's like my first way in. I'm curious to hear like, what you think about that.
- [16:24]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, I. I really do believe a lot of the strategy that I've used over the years. And honestly, I've learned this in the 12 steps, that's for sure. For me. So anybody listening who doesn't know, I am in recovery for a long time. I met my wife eight months after I got sober. So 21 years and change. I believe the power is in the pause. And what does that mean? That means that that first thought that we talked about earlier is in many cases probably subconsciously derived or out of our control.
- [17:13]
A
Sure.
- [17:13]
B
Right. Like touched, your wounding, probably some level of that. Right. And that goes for anything. Somebody walks in the room, you don't like the way they look. Your first thought, I don't like the way that person looks. If you were to say everything, if you'd act on that first thought all the time, you'd be in big trou most of the time. Right. So I think, you know, it is really pausing and slowing everything down for me. Sometimes I'm nowhere near perfect, but I really do try to put a highlight on that when I know something is a bruin. Slow it down. Slow it down, Mike. And then I go to that ownership piece. Right. Where are you. Where can you see very clearly that there is apology attached to this somewhere? Right. Like, let's find the apology so that we're not playing prosecutor. Right. You know, because I think playing prosecutor, anybody, you know, it's called prosecutor defense. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's always gonna be.
- [18:18]
A
You force somebody into defense if you're coming in, and vice versa. Again, if you're coming in victim stance, you're gonna force somebody into the other pole.
- [18:24]
B
Right. I think the pause has been super helpful. The power of the pause. Power in the pause for me. But, you know, things escalate and at times. And so I guess when I ask the question about, like, healthy arguing, because it's going to happen, maybe what I'm trying to say is when is like, is it right or. Or potentially not right? But when do you think it's not going to. The outcome is not going to be positive. Well, not even positive. Just like, you can get into an argument and what can I own? I could tell you this right now. And this is something that. I don't know. I mean, I definitely saw my mother do this a lot. My mother still does this. But, like, if we get into something, my brain goes. Starts pulling out files from. From the. From the. From before, you know, could be things that have stung me over the years, and my brain can go there, you know, when do you think is the right time to be like, you know what? Let's pause. Yeah, let's. Let's. Let's not. This is not going anywhere. We're going in circles. Like, let's either, you know, go for. Go out for a walk, take some time, you know, because I think that is very helpful.
- [19:46]
A
Sure. It can be. Take a break. Yeah. I mean, I think, again, it depends on the person. I know for me and my partner, so much of the work we've done to have better and better arguments has been around kind of simultaneously continuing to learn to understand ourselves. Right. But also to kind of understand the other person. So, you know, not to categorize everything into black and white. It's not like we're just avoidant or anxious. It's not that simple. It's a spectrum. But I know that I tend to be the one that gets flooded. Shuts down when we're in arguments. And he tends to be the one that goes into prosecutor mode. And he talks like his anxiety has him, like. And I'm like, I'm not Even there anymore, right? That's our pattern. So we know that about each other. We've been together long enough now. I know that about myself. So I've created strategies personally to keep myself in my body when I'm in conflict, because I know I dissociate. I know I leave the room, right? That's my job. But also my partner, he watches me. He knows now when he's in that moment, and he sees me start to glaze over, like, I'm just not even there anymore. We've gotten into a better routine where he'll go, you know what? We need to pause. Or I'll say, you know what? I'm done. I'm not even here. We need to take a break. Because this is not going to be a good argument. Because I can't. My prefrontal cortex is offline. Like, I'm literally not here, right? And so there's been this, like, dance with us with, again, me saying, how can I stay here? What can I do? What is my toolbox? But also him seeing me in that, too, and vice versa, right? Where I get to say to him, hey, I need you to take a breath right now. You're talking so much, so fast and so much at me that I don't know that we're getting anywhere, right? And sure, he can get defensive in that moment, but it's our strategies to create the pause. It's like, whoa, stop. Take a breath. You're so up here. And we get so into, like, our defenses. Are we even here in the room anymore? Are we even talking about our relationship anymore? Are we 20 years ago, right now? Are we 10 years ago, right now, talking about something that doesn't matter, like, stay here, stay present, right? So I think it's also like learning individual strategies that can help get to that pause.
- [22:00]
B
Is it healthy to argue?
- [22:02]
A
Yes.
- [22:03]
B
Okay.
- [22:03]
A
Yes. But there is healthy arguing, and there's not healthy arguing, right? So, I mean, listen, my husband's also a therapist, so people are always like, oh, God, what is that like, right?
- [22:13]
B
Two therapists.
- [22:14]
A
I know we can be very analytical. That can be a problem. A lot of times we tend to be neck up, right? So it's not always healthy, even with us, you know, but we've created rules and ground rules and to your point, pauses and strategies. And it's an ever evolving. I think that's the other part to say not linear. To go back to what you said, it's ever evolving, and that's okay.
- [22:37]
B
Going to bed angry with each other.
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A
I'm A fan.
- [22:41]
B
You are.
- [22:43]
A
I'm a fan.
- [22:43]
B
Okay, let's.
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A
Let me tell you why.
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B
Okay.
- [22:46]
A
That first of all, there's never a one size fits all. We talked about this, right. It's very dependent on the person, the situation. I jokingly say I'm a fan because I'm the one that gets flooded. I'm also not good. We have a rule in our house that we do not have heated arguments or heated conversations after like 9pm do not come to me at 9 o' clock with a grievance. It's not gonna end well for either of us. I'm a mom of a young kid. I work full time. My brain shuts off at like 8:30pm it just is not gonna function in that way. Right. And so when you do that, I'm like, you know, activated. I'm gonna be like, I'm going to bed now. We will talk about this in the morning. Because here's what I know. Fighting and fighting and staying up until 2 in the morning and crying. That is not healthy for anybody. Cause then tomorrow I'm gonna be a wreck and so are you. So I would rather push pause and then let's come back to it tomorrow when we're in a better state. So again, it is circumstantial. It's not always the go to. But oftentimes I'll be like, you started this, my friend. You know the rule. Nine PM's the cutoff. So now you're gonna have to wait until tomorrow to have this conversation. So I just think it depends on the person.
- [23:58]
B
Children and coming to the rescue.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah.
- [24:04]
B
What are your thoughts on that? Like, I think that there is some literature, data, whatever, that supports if your child is crying, you go and console and soothe them. There's other, I think less studied data, more intuition that would say you need to let them figure it out. Right. Because I believe my life has all been about. Been about figuring it out. It's just all been about, dude, you're on your own here. And no, I mean now I have an enormous amount of support and I'm grateful for that. But coming up, zero to seven, plus another 10 years, it's been very much like, all right, dude, you gotta figure this out. No one's coming. And I'm pretty happy with the outcome of that. Certainly wouldn't wish addiction and alcoholism on anyone. I certainly experienced about a decade of that. Definitely don't do that. But it was a mechanism for me at the time. Right. The question that I'm asking is from your experience or from your way of thinking about this. When your child is crying about something that you know is not warrant. Doesn't warrant necessarily a cry, what do you do?
- [25:41]
A
So, I mean, I think our natural inclination as parents is to comfort our child when they're hurting, right? So I would say that it's usually gonna be the best thing to listen to your intuition and attend to your child when they're upset. But I think it depends on how far you take this idea of, like, tending to them so often. With my daughter, right. She's a very, very sensitive soul. And also, similarly to you, I have developed from many years, my upbringing, all the things I've been through. I'm. There's a lot of grit and a lot of, like, you got this. You'll figure it out. That she. First of all, she's five, so she doesn't have that yet, right? But she's just. She's also not wired in that same kind of way as me. I was very much like, I'll do it myself even when I was five, you know? So a lot of times, what that strategy looks like is an acknowledgement. Like, I'm not pretending that I don't hear or see you upset or crying. There's an acknowledgment in there. Like, are you good? Like, I see that you hurt yourself, or I see that you're upset. I get it. I understand that. And then there's, like, the next step. So I'll give you, like, an actual example, which I think kind of plays this really well. So we were at some kind of, like, little festival thing. And this tells you how, like, my daughter, a sensitive little soul. So they're in this area where there's kids and they're all dancing, and she's with another parent. So I'm, like, enjoying my time. And I hear her crying in the distance, and I'm like, uh, oh, what happened? So she comes down and she's beside herself, and I'm like, what happened? Did you get hurt? And she's like, there's a girl with a dress with gems on it, and I want it. And she is. She's beside herself. And I'm like, okay, don't minimize the feeling, right? Because even though you think it's stupid, at 4 or 5, she doesn't think it's stupid.
- [27:31]
B
Biggest thing ever.
- [27:32]
A
That's right. Cause you have to remember you're coming at it from your perspective, right? It's not their perspective. So I just said to her, I'm like, yeah, man, I get it like wanting something that you can't have. That's a hard thing for any adult, right? We all still feel envious, even as grownups. I know what that feels like, and that really sucks, right? So I just acknowledged it and let her sit there and have her feelings. Now, let me tell you, she kept having that feeling for, like, 20 minutes.
- [27:59]
B
Wow.
- [27:59]
A
She was in it, but I want it.
- [28:01]
B
Blah, blah.
- [28:02]
A
And she's going on and on and on. And so I came down to her level and I said, listen, again, I get it. It's really hard to want something you can't have. And also, you're missing it. Look around. All your friends are here. This party's only got another 30 minutes. So your choice now is to sit here and be upset or to go have fun with your friends. Like, what do you want to do? And she took a minute and she, like, thought about it, and she kind of, you know, wiped her nose and she got up and she went and had fun. So a lot of times with her, at least it's a little bit of that. It's like, acknowledge, validate, recognize. The feeling is almost always valid, right? And then say, okay, but now what do you want to do about it? What's your choice in this? Like, how do you take agency back?
- [28:41]
B
Right?
- [28:42]
A
And so at least with my daughter and with some of my friends, as I've watched, or clients, kids, that seems to be a strategy that, you know, nothing works all the time, but that seems to be a good strategy. It's like the both.
- [28:52]
B
When you said coming down to her level, you mean physically?
- [28:55]
A
Physically.
- [28:55]
B
And how important is that?
- [28:58]
A
I find it's very important for little ones, especially because, you know, understandably, like, you're a lot bigger than them. And so this feeling of. Of like, I'm looking up at you and you're looking down at me can feel a lot of ways. It can feel minimizing. It can feel overwhelming. You know, there's this thing that her dad and I both do, which is, like, if we're both talking at her at the same time, she feels ganged up on. So we have to really take it into account that, like, physically, they're so much smaller than us. Not just mentally, emotionally, you know, developmentally. So oftentimes, when I'm trying to, like, level with her, I literally level with her. You know, I'll get down on her level.
- [29:39]
B
Mother's myth. What is the mother's myth?
- [29:43]
A
Yeah, I wrote about a handful of myths in this book. So there's three sections in the Book Motherhood, Sex, and Relationships. And so throughout the entire book, there's a ton of myths, but the one overarching motherhood myth that I talk about is really this idea that if motherhood is not inherently easy for you and it doesn't just fill you up to the brim, like complete fulfillment, that there's something wrong with you. Right. So we've been kind of served this myth, especially as women, but I would say actually, you know, partners as well, men as well, that if that parenthood, relationships, if it doesn't all come easy and naturally and we're not just super fulfilled by it, then we're the problem. And that was really, like, the biggest myth that I wanted to breakdown.
- [30:29]
B
So how did you break it down?
- [30:31]
A
Well, first, I actually broke it down into kind of like, the different arms of the, you know, things that laddered up to that bigger myth. I'm kind of a history nerd. So this book is a little bit of, like a sociology, psychology led exploration into, like, how did we get here? Why do we believe the things we do? Like, where did these blueprints come from? That was really important for me. And so I hope that through doing that, I was able to give people an understanding of. This is about the systems that we all live in and the way that they've actually constructed rules that benefit the systems. It's not actually about the individual's fulfillment and the individual's happiness. And so, no, you're not crazy. You live in a system that wants you to feel like you're crazy so that you keep buying shit, so that you keep trying to get external validation, so that you keep trying to prove yourself. Right. Because that's what keeps these systems going.
- [31:29]
B
For the listener who has not read the book.
- [31:31]
A
Yeah.
- [31:32]
B
And is a mother that does not feel, like, filled to the brim with excitement about being a mom. What can you say to that person?
- [31:43]
A
Yeah, I mean, I would say you're not alone. That it's very common. I mean, I regularly say this, and I get shit for it. I'm okay with it because my job here is to be honest so that I can let people look at themselves in an honest way and let go of some of the shame. Right. Is I love my child, but I don't love parenting. They're two very different things. And so it's okay to admit that the job of mothering, the job of parenting is not super exciting to me, but that actually doesn't have anything to do with my relationship with my daughter. Right. So I would say to Them first and foremost. Again, you're not alone. This is really normal. You're not meant to parent this way. None of us are. So the fact that you're struggling again just means we need to pull out and say, I need to look around. I need to stop thinking it's all about me. And I need to instead look around and say, like, how can I do things differently in a society that's kind of stacked against me?
- [32:39]
B
When you say you're not meant to parent this way, what do you mean?
- [32:43]
A
So I mean, there's a lot of ways that I could go, you know, to describe that or to kind of define that. The one I will talk about is like, we all hear this idea of the village. We've heard this a million times. We're meant to have a village, but that's a real issue. So our species would never have survived if one or maybe two adults were in charge of raising children. We were not meant to actually raise children that way. That's not how we would have survived. In fact, there was a collective approach to raising children. Right? So if a group of men went out to find food or a group of women. Because we now know that this idea of the men being the hunters and gatherers is not actually accurate. It actually was a collective responsibility. So either the group of men would be watching the kids or the group of women would be watching the kids. And it would be cousins and aunties and uncles and grandparents, and we were all giving each other a break. And also as children, we were learning from very different people. So even attachment, again, I love to talk about this because we're an attachment style obsessed culture right now. What's your attachment style? What's your attachment style? As a therapist, I hear this all the time. And to me, I think it's really interesting to know that attachment theory didn't even come out until somewhere between, like, the late 50s, late 70s, when Bowlby was doing his research in Ainsworth. We are not meant as a species to only have one or two attachment figures. We developed having multiple attachment figures. So even this idea of attachment theory to me seems not entirely rooted in truth. Because you're talking about somebody who lives now who had mom and maybe dad, and that's it. So, no, we're not meant to do this by ourselves. So are you burnt out? Are you stressed out? Do you feel like you can't do everything? Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
- [34:34]
B
Do you think that there's. It would be a benefit to us to live in, like, communal setting?
- [34:43]
A
I Do. I mean, I wish we could wave a wand. I know it's happening slowly. People are doing it. I do think that would be of great benefit. I mean, my personal experience, too. So we lost our community and our home in the fires in January in California. And before that happened, we had really, a bunch of us had really committed to attempting to create just that. So we had this amazing street where all the doors were open and the kids were running back and forth, and they had multiple families and parents that were kind of always looking out for them. And I have to say that few years that I was in that experience was probably the least stressful few years of parenting that I've ever experienced. And it really makes you realize how much help and support we actually need and how much better parenting and life can be when you know that you've got three other adults that you can rely on and trust to help with your kids.
- [35:39]
B
Wow, that is so interesting, if you really think about it, that it was really done, you know, I would imagine prior to the last four or five hundred years, close to a million years. It was. It was done that way.
- [35:56]
A
That's what I'm saying. So of course you're struggling. This is brand new, right? I mean, even when you think about, like, the construction of the nuclear family, like, even nuclear family is not actually how we were meant to live. We were still meant to. Even in pair bonding, we were still in a community of other people. And so you weren't meant to be isolated in a house with two people and kids. So it makes sense to me even that relationally, we struggle because you're not meant to be my everything. I was supposed to have other people around to rely on and to lean on. It's too much responsibility.
- [36:34]
B
You know, there's a lot of conversation, and I'm sure you're very attuned to this, but a lot of conversation about male loneliness right now, right? Just men being lonely, not having a lot of friends, not really interested in making new friends, specifically in the 35 and 35 plus age group. Right. And unfortunately, the Harvard study on happiness says pretty flagrantly, the number one catalyst to a happy life is the quality of your personal relations. Right. So when you look at that, and that's the longest living study in American history, I think it was kicked off in 1938, and it's gone through multiple generations of 700 people. It makes sense that men without friends, working and having their families only is creating this kind of thing. What are your thoughts on male onlyness?
- [37:54]
A
I mean, I think. I think no matter what I say here, somebody is gonna take offense to this because I've had this conversation multiple times with different people. I think what we're seeing is the. We're almost like at. I don't know if it's the tail end. I'm trying to think of the right kind of terminology, but it's like there's a pendulum swing, right? So pendulum theory. I actually talk about this in the book. Pendulum theory essentially says, right, that there's a pendulum constantly swinging in society. And what happens is it never truly reaches center, but every time it swings through center, it moves a little bit closer to some form of evolution, positive evolution, right? And I think what we're experiencing right now is we've swung the pendulum. Like we're in a phase of like, an extreme right, and it's the result of a few hundred years of a very specific way of living in society, right? Isolation, nuclear families, the peak of capitalism. Everything is about buy, buy, buy, right? So our world is literally crumbling. So everything in essence is like, swung. And I think what you're seeing, even in younger generations, is their attempt to, like, bring it back into some form of center, right? Because they're looking around being like, this is bullshit. This is not what we signed up for. So this idea of male loneliness is really fascinating to me because my favorite clientele to work with is men. I love working with men because nothing fills me up more than sitting with a man who is, like, challenging and questioning these things and saying, I didn't sign up for this. Like, I don't actually want to be only thinking about being a provider. There's so much more to me as a human being that I feel ashamed to embrace and talk about because I think I'll be shamed by the people in my life or. Right. Or I'm actually a really highly emotive individual. But I can't be. I feel like I can't be emotional in my partnership because I feel like she's gonna make fun of me or she's gonna lose respect for me. Right? I love having these kind of conversations with men. I think that what you're seeing is you've got a couple generations of women who have really embraced, let's say, the self help movement. They've done a lot of work on themselves and. And unfortunately, in our culture, we didn't put that much emphasis on that for men. And so now you've got again, this pendulum swing where a lot of women are going, well, here's the thing. I'M not gonna date unless it checks these boxes. Emotional intelligence, conflict resolution, and ability to take ownership, not be defensive. Check, check, check, check, check. And there's this interesting thing that's happened where women have done this work, and not as many men in that generation have. So now we have less people dating. People are less partnered.
- [40:46]
B
Right.
- [40:46]
A
Women are choosing now to not have children, to not get married. These numbers are incredible when you actually look at them on paper. And so the loneliness epidemic has only actually gotten bigger and bigger and bigger. And so the way I look at it is, I'm here for my brothers, man. I feel a lot of empathy for the struggle that men are going through right now because it is like, well, who the hell am I if I'm not?
- [41:09]
B
But I also think that this happens in, like, I don't think this is secluded to single men.
- [41:17]
A
No, not at all.
- [41:17]
B
I think this is like a.
- [41:18]
A
It's in relationships, too.
- [41:19]
B
Yeah, I think it's. I think that there, like you said, right. Like, there is this provider mentality that we were cultivated to follow suit towards. And if you're not working your ass off and in the best shape and being the best husband and father, that's what men are judged on.
- [41:41]
A
That's right.
- [41:41]
B
What are you driving? What is your role? What are you wearing? How much does your. How much do your children love you? And are you going on date night? And that's what men are judged on, quite frankly. It's not about, like, how many friends do you have? What do you love to do when you're not providing? It's like, if you're judged on that, as a man, judging shows up poorly. That's a fact. Right. Oh, look at him. He's got 30 friends, but he's a deadbeat, right? Like, oh, look at him. He goes out to the bar every Friday night with his buddies and watches the baseball game, and his wife and kids are at home, like, wondering where he is. So I think there is this real sort of dilemma.
- [42:29]
A
I agree.
- [42:30]
B
Right. Where it's like society says you're supposed to be this incredible provider and go on three vacations a year and have the nicest stuff, but also be the dad that coaches all the sports teams and also comes home with flowers for your wife every Tuesday and Friday.
- [42:55]
A
It's too much for anybody.
- [42:56]
B
It's just a lot.
- [42:57]
A
It's a lot.
- [42:57]
B
It's what we're judged on, I think, is what makes this thing an issue.
- [43:02]
A
But I think this is the same thing I'm talking about necessarily. Like, with women, in my book, is what you're speaking to with men, which is these standards that we're judged on are not standards that we necessarily created for ourselves. They're standards created by a society that functions on your shame, that functions on you constantly feeling like you're not enough. Because so long as that's your base level, you're gonna buy more shit, you're gonna drink more booze, you're gonna like all of these things, right? It keeps capitalism and misogyny and patriarchy, it keeps it all going. It's a system that feeds off of our shame. And so a lot of this is us waking up again, looking around and being like, this is bullshit. I don't wanna subscribe to this anymore. But part of that is you gotta go against the grain a little bit. You've gotta actually say, you know what? I'm gonna remove myself from this rat race. And I'm gonna say what makes me feel alive. I'm gonna have hard conversations with my partner. I'll tell you, a lot of this book is a very honest look into some of the dynamics that my partner and I have untangled over the last few years. And it was spurred on by me having a kid. Because shit changed when I had a kid, right? As it does for all of us. But with the men's side, like we're talking about, what I started waking up to in my own marriage, but also in the relationships of the people that I was working with, is the way that in this society, to your point, it's not about the quality of relationships for men, right? But what happens. Just because we shame you for having emotions as a little boy doesn't mean it goes away. It means it gets pushed into the shadow, right? You can't cut that off of a human being. We're emotive creatures, right? So what happens? It goes into the shadow. And a lot of boys turn into men who have anger. Because it's really like, the only kind of socially acceptable big emotion that men are allowed to have. Or through lust. Cause that's another way that you guys are allowed to feel deeply. And so what I've seen happen time and time again is how often. And I'm speaking very generally, I know in heteronormative dynamics, men tend to almost use the women in their lives as a conduit to feel. To feel connected, to feel connected to something higher than themselves, to feel connected to themselves, to be able to connect to a deep well of emotion and love and passion. Because out in the world, they Can't. And while I think that's beautiful, if you're looking to any one person to actually be the thing that you tap into to get that from, when that person, for example, in my case, and a lot of women's case, has a child and. And goes, I can't be that for you anymore. I'm tapped out, I'm touched out, I'm busy. I'm trying to keep this little being alive. I see it happen over and over again. The relationship starts to implode because we don't give our boys and our men the tools to sit with themselves and ask these deeper questions. What makes me feel alive? What's my higher power? How do I go there?
- [46:02]
B
You know, I think something that's been really helpful for me. Cause I will be honest, like, I still struggle with this too. Like, I mean, I have a lot of friends, but, like, only about three that I really want to spend time with. Right.
- [46:15]
A
Deep friends.
- [46:15]
B
Yeah.
- [46:15]
A
Yeah.
- [46:16]
B
And, you know, I am very clear on what makes me happiest in life. And the fact is, for me, spending time with my wife and kids is truly when I am. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't absolutely love going to LA and spending time with my childhood best friends that have all moved to LA from New York and just laughing for three days straight like, I fucking love that. That's right, I love that. But on an ongoing, regular basis, the things that bring me most joy is spending time with my wife and kids. Now, I'm also a founder and CEO of my company, and I have been for the last 15 years. Right. So there's a lot of stress that comes from that side of the street as well. And up until about 10, five years ago, I had zero boundaries on the separation between business and family. And when you have zero boundaries, that means that there's no goal post. You just can play and play and play and not know who, when to stop the game. Right? So about five years ago, I decided that it was time for me to really, really look at my life and draw very, very clear boundaries. Now, I didn't. It wasn't easy to stick to those boundaries out the gate. But I said, if I'm not having breakfast with my wife and kids in the morning and dinner with them at night, I need to check my boundaries because that is something that I desperately wanted to do because I knew that that was important for everyone, including myself as the priority. Right? And then I said to myself, now, Michael, it's awesome to have breakfast and dinner, but if you're working all weekend long, which you did for years being in the restaurant business. You're not gonna have long stints of quality time with your family and not give yourself any time to really hang out with friends. So what does that mean? That means that you're just not gonna work on the weekends anymore. And so now my life is, I have breakfast with my wife and kids every morning. I have dinner with my wife and kids every night. I don't work on the weekends. And I dealt with shame and pressure from the exterior world around that for like, two and a half, three years.
- [48:50]
A
So what did you do so specifically when you were feeling that shame and pressure? I suppose, like, what was your practice for being like, no, this is what it feels like, like, truth for me, and I'm gonna keep going. Like, what did that look like for you?
- [49:04]
B
You know, I think it was like, many people, I. 100%. Even though I'd like to say I've gotten better at this, care what other people think, probably way too much. Right? And I thought specifically as an early entrepreneur in my, you know, mid to late 20s, I was like, success is how many hours and days am I, how many hours I'm working a day and how many days am I stringing together without taking a day off? That was success. Like, I, you know, I felt at 28 years old, first business really successful. I was like, yeah, I haven't taken a day off in 18 months, and my wife didn't even know who I was. But I was proud to say I am a worker, and I didn't because I just didn't know. And do I think that that was necessary to get to where I'm at today, potentially? I don't know. But I can say that that is not a healthy, sustainable way to live a life with a smile on your face. And I do know this. When it comes time to pay your dues, the hours extra that I worked are not going to mean a fucking thing.
- [50:32]
A
Nope, they're not.
- [50:33]
B
The amount of times I was able to look into my son's eyes and see his pearly white teeth smile back at me and say, daddy, I love you. That's all that matters. And so those boundaries have been incredible for me, and I could give a. Honestly, I will. I'll work six to eight hours a day, get a lot of shit done and feel good, and not give a damn if you. If you're judging me because I'm working 40 hours a week as a founder and CEO, I really don't care.
- [51:08]
A
Yeah, do you think that you having being in recovery, do you think that some of your practices and tools that you've developed over the years have been helpful for you in also maintaining those boundaries in your life?
- [51:21]
B
Oh, without a doubt. But also, you know, like, you have to. I mean, I'm sure you understand, right. Like you go from if I like something as a person in now recovery, but like as an addict at my core, if I like something, I just have no, like initially no ability to gauge the speed in which I attack. And so I can easily just get completely obsessed with something and just do it. Right. And that works in some ways very well for me as an. Yeah. And in other ways really poorly for me. And now, you know, like, I've done a lot of work on myself the way I like to think of the self help world, also known as potentially just the wellness world in general today. Right. I think it's kind of this thing is like anything you read, any experience you have, any modality you do, any practice you undertake, these are all opportunities to just turn the volume up on self awareness a little bit. Right. Like nothing is going to change your life one time.
- [52:35]
A
There's no wand.
- [52:36]
B
Yeah. It's just if you can be self aware enough to say, you know what, we just ticked it up a notch. And so now the more I do of that, just the louder my self awareness is for me. And I think ultimately self awareness is like the enemy of perfection, which I love because perfection is a nightmare.
- [53:04]
A
It's also another way to get that external validation.
- [53:06]
B
Right, right.
- [53:07]
A
Which is what we're talking about.
- [53:08]
B
I want to finish up with one other thing because I could probably talk to you for, I don't even know days straight. But you said that there's a piece of the book where you talk about sex. And I think I would love to just understand what. Because I have not read the book yet and I'm excited to read that one. Like, let's talk about sex.
- [53:28]
A
Yeah. So, you know, even though this book is the lens of motherhood, it's not just for women or mothers. I mean, I've had a lot of men also come to me and say, really sweet. Actually, like I said, I love working with men when they come to me and they're like, I read this book, it was amazing. I'm having all my friends read it. So the sex part is really again, our understanding of how did we get here.
- [53:49]
B
Right.
- [53:50]
A
So I start by talking about how sex is so rarely sexual, so really about sex. So when couples come to me and sex is something they want to talk about, whatever the lack of it, the amount, like the way that it happens, the disconnection, all of these things. It's usually about something else, right? So it's about power dynamics, it's about self worth, it's about, am I being validated, do I feel desired? Like there's all of these things that then ladder up to the actual act of sexual. And so my exploration in the section on sex is the dynamics that we've gotten ourselves into again, in the systems that we live in, the society that we live in, where so often women are taught out the gate that our responsibility is to please the man. That's it. It's nothing to do with our desire, our actual satisfaction. It's really just about ego preservation and making sure you guys feel good so that you might choose us. That's really what it comes down to. Both of us have a choose me wound. But for women in particular, it's a lot about I am nothing if I'm not chosen by a man. And so I gotta do whatever I gotta do to get him to choose me, including make sure he's sexually satisfied, right? And a lot of times what happens is most of us, both genders, we're not taught in a way that we tap into ourselves and say again, what brings me a sense of aliveness, right? What do I like? What is my desire based in? It's again, it's based in pleasing. So I break down a lot of these things that I've heard so often, especially once kids enter into a dynamic, right? So one of them I hear a lot of times from women is this idea that they really want to be physically close to their partners, but they feel like they're signing a contract.
- [55:36]
B
Meaning like you're physically close.
- [55:37]
A
We're having sex, we're having sex. I would love to cuddle you, I would love to make out with you, I would love to, whatever. But I know that if I get close to you, you're going to expect that we're going to have sex, right? And so going back to what I was saying earlier about this revelation that I see so many women having is they realize that sex a lot of times in their relationships is not about them. It's not about their male partner wanting to connect with them, it's about their male partner wanting something. So again, a release, a connection to their own emotional self, a connection to feeling close to a higher power, whatever it is, it's not like a soul to soul connection. And so, so many times Women will come into my office and they're like, I don't want to have sex with my partner because I'm not getting anything out of it. This isn't about me. And so that's a big focus of that section is really on both sides of the equation. What do we do about this dynamic that we've gotten ourselves into where sex is so rarely about a soul to soul connection.
- [56:38]
B
So when a couple is battling that or struggling with that, which a lot of couples have, right. What is the like. I mean obviously I'm assuming that you kind of again, like patternistically you look at the individuals and you try to sort of assess a potential plan. But what have you seen be successful for couples that, you know, knock on wood. You know, I feel lucky and blessed that like my wife and I have not fallen into the no sex for months and months, months category where I know a lot of long term relationships do end up falling into that category. But what is a way to re engage if you are, if you, if someone listening to this is like, yeah, just, you know, we just, you know, like what is, you know, what have you seen be successful to sort of spark up a potential mutually beneficial sexual relationship?
- [57:39]
A
So I guess there's two ways to answer that. So the first one is going back to what you were saying earlier about self awareness. Right. So oftentimes, because I always say sex is not usually about sex, Right. I will use this as an opportunity for both parties to get really aware of their motive, their motivation. What's your motivating? Like what's the drive that gets you to wanting to have sex with your partner? Right. I want people to get really clear on the difference between craving and desire because they're different. Craving comes from a place of lack and desire comes from a place of fulfillment. Like I feel full and I have this like ability to tap into myself and I want to connect in a, in a way that's based in desire. That's a lot different than a craving, which is like I need you to fix or fill something in me. Right. Which again, we all know this from. I'm on the other side from the codependency perspective. But it's the same idea that we work with in 12 step, right. It's like what's your motivator? It's trying to fill a hole. Whether it's booze, whether it's people pleasing, whether it's sex, whether it's gambling, I don't care what it is. It's trying to fill a hole right or we're trying to hide or we're trying to numb in some way. So step one is always getting to the point where you're starting to understand what's that motivator, right?
- [58:54]
B
What if one of the partners doesn't have a motivator, just doesn't want to do it?
- [59:01]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's always a point to talk about. I mean, I think especially for new mothers, right? Like that's those first maybe up to five years. It's very common. I think there's a hormonal component to that which is actually really normal for women's sex drives to go down because the hormone balance goes a little crazy. Right. And actually, biologically what happens is they're wired to be more in caretaker mode than they are to be in sex mode and reproductive mode, which again, is normal, even though we demonize it. You know, I also think that there's conversations around, and this is what I do with clients, is we don't have to have the act of sex. What are you doing in your day to day life that feels sensual? What happened to sensuality, right? What are you guys doing and engaging with individually as well as together? That is actually like caretaking the sensual side of your being. Most people are not most people. You wake up, you hit snooze on your alarm, right? You get the kids out the door after a super stressful morning, you go to work, you drive home in traffic, you come home, you give your partner a peck on the cheek, you battle bedtime and dinner, you go to bed, repeat, where is the sensuality in that? Where is the eros in that? The feeling of aliveness again. And then what? We want to just roll over and expect desire and sensuality to just like manifest out of nowhere? We have to fluff our own feathers too. Like, we've got to say to ourselves, where am I prioritizing eros in my life has nothing to do with this person. If you want your partner to desire you more, be a more desirable person.
- [60:41]
B
See, and I hear that. I think the.
- [60:44]
A
And that's not a quick fix.
- [60:45]
B
No, no, but what I'm saying is that I think the hard part, right, is that most men are just ready to rock and roll at any time, right? Ready to go. So I think what you're saying, and potentially not saying as articulately as I'm about to say, it is men, if you. It's because it's typically the women that just lose interest in wanting to have sex with their husbands, right? I mean, at least with conversations that I've had with friends.
- [61:17]
A
But I can say why.
- [61:19]
B
Let's go.
- [61:19]
A
If you want me to say it bluntly.
- [61:21]
B
Blunt.
- [61:22]
A
I'll tell you why. I see this over and over and over in my practice. We are not biologically wired to want to have sex with our offspring. It's how our species survived. It's a genetic thing. So the second a parental dynamic enters into a romantic relationship and you start feeling like a child to me, I'm not going to want to have sex with. With you. Biologically, it turns off and what I see happen over and over again, especially once a child comes into the partnership. She starts to feel like she's got two kids and there's no sex drive anymore. And people get pissed at me when I say this.
- [62:06]
B
No, I think. I think it's spot on. I think it's spot on.
- [62:10]
A
I always say this. I'm like, in the most blunt way, I can wanna have sex with you. I. Or I can wanna mother you, but I can't do both.
- [62:15]
B
Okay, so you choose. So. Cause we gotta wind this thing down. But this is so interesting and I'm so excited about this. So this is gonna be hard for men to come to terms with. Right? But how would a man dissect whether or not he has fallen into this child of his wife category? Like, what would be the question that he would ask himself?
- [62:43]
A
I mean, I would want him to ask himself about himself. What's my connection to myself? Again, going back to this idea of, like, what brings me a sense of aliveness outside of my wife and children? Right. Where am I taking responsibility for myself? Where am I doing self exploration? What are my paths like? Ask yourself questions about yourself. Don't always defer to her or look to her. What's my social life look like? Is she the social coordinator of our family and of our life? How much investment in a partnership am I willing to make a partnership? Is somebody standing shoulder to shoulder with you? Right. Don't ask her for a list. Increase your attunement. Work on attunement. It's a muscle that's been atrophied. Look around the room, see what needs to be done. Join her in partnership where she doesn't feel like she needs to delegate to you like she does to her children. If you can rise and shoulder to shoulder with her, be a partner, she's going to feel more aroused by you. The healthy masculine is all about a sense of purpose. That's what embodies the healthy masculine purpose. So if I look to my partner, and in his eyes, I know that he has this embodied sense of purpose that doesn't have to do with, again, the kids and me. It's like he feels like he's got a purpose in this world that's hot, that makes me want, it makes me aroused, but we've lost that as a culture.
- [64:12]
B
Wow. All right, I think we gotta wrap it up there. I'm gonna have to have you back on the show. I mean, I come out to California a lot, and so every time I go there, I get a podcast, because I could just go deep on this. I mean, I think it's. It's so relevant and it's so spot on, and it is a hot topic.
- [64:32]
A
It is. I know.
- [64:33]
B
And so I would just. I really. I think you're. You could.
- [64:39]
A
You're.
- [64:39]
B
You're the male figure falling into child category and allowing his partner to cook dinner, cook breakfast, take out the garbage, walk the dog, do those things. And, like, because the provider is, like, bringing the provisions, ultimately actually creates that dynamic. And one thing that I could say and something that I've started to do, which I think is important to mention, is like, take out the fucking garbage. Like, simple, right? Like, you see the garbage bag is full. You know that your partner potentially, is the one to do it. Typically, step up and do it. The boxes need to get broken down. Like, hey, it's Saturday morning. You see seven boxes that need to get broken down because, you know, the garbage pickup is on Monday. Typically, it magically happens, like, fucking break down the boxes.
- [65:54]
A
If you lived alone, you would do it.
- [65:56]
B
So I think little things like that are going to be super duper helpful. The value in this episode is so. I mean, we talked about so many things. Where can everybody find you?
- [66:11]
A
I'm mostly on Instagram, vanessasbennet, but my website, vanessabennet.com kind of will put you out to all the different things that I've got going on. I have a coaching academy where I teach coaches with in depth psychology, which is my background, Jungian psychology. I have a community, all that Jazz, so you can find it on my website.
- [66:28]
B
And then also Cheaper Than Therapy is your podcast, where I'm sure you talk about a lot of this stuff.
- [66:36]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [66:37]
B
Thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah.
- [66:39]
A
Thank you, Michael. Appreciate it.
- [66:42]
B
Whoo. All right. Leaving with some gifts, friends, for both men and women. We talked about a lot on this episode. Do me a favor. I only ask you to pay rent in one way for listening to this podcast, and that is by sharing it. Share this podcast this is a very shareable podcast. This will make sense to anybody in a relationship or anybody that's about to get into a relationship. You know, these things we kicked off by saying relationships are not linear. For whatever reason, we are led to believe that, you know, you meet somebody you love, you date for two years, the man drops down on his knee and asks to get married. About a year and change later, you're supposed to be married. You're married for three years and then you're supposed to have children. And then you have children and then a couple years later, you're supposed to. To have another one. And you know, this pathway has a lot of. A lot of loops. A lot of loops and a lot of trails in the woods. So if you're in there and you're feeling like you're not walking that straight path that we're all taught about in the movies, just know you're not alone. And every time you get into an argument or get into a fight or something happens, it's not the end. You know, the end is running. Don't run. Sit in the pain for a little while. We're designed to be able to get through life like we get through life, you know, and we talk a lot about that in this episode. So it would mean the world to me if you shared this podcast. You could send it to a friend via text, email, post it on social media. Any way you choose to share, share it. It would mean a lot if you're feeling incredibly generous, you want to give us a five star rating and a review, that is truly how we grow the podcast. So that would mean the world. And yeah, I am so grateful for you guys being a subscriber to this podcast and listening in every week because it's just been getting better and better and better. Love you, appreciate you. Until the next one, Fam. Peace.