A (3:10)

Oh, dude, that makes me so happy.

B (3:11)

Ten years ago, and every time you call me asking for help or advice or, like, let me run this help

A (3:19)

and advice, that's what I call you for. For sure. 100. Aside from just saying, I'm, like, it

B (3:24)

is, like, the biggest joy. Like, I'm gonna tear up. Because, like, and. And, like, that's part of the. Like, what I'm really curious about with you is you have so many people that are vying for your time. You have so many people that want your attention. You know, you've had these years in the. The nightlife scene. You've had the years in the restaurant scene now, like, the fitness world. And, like, how do you vet. Like, what's the mechanism of vetting? To figure out, like, who I'm going to give energy to and who I'm not, who I'm going to keep around and who I'm not.

A (4:03)

Wow. Kicking off with a question for me. First of all, I love you, and it's been so awesome to see your trajectory, like, truly. I remember you telling me about formula and then launching formula. And then I remember when you told me that you guys had hit 10 million in revenue, and I was like, this dude is doing it. And then you blossomed into this. Into this, like, CPG resource for people, not only as a founder, but just, like, as someone that was, like, helping people scale their business. And you learned about ecom, like, very fast. And, like, people were, like, leaning on you, myself included, as someone to tap into to get the goods. So congrats.

B (5:02)

Thank you.

A (5:03)

It's awesome.

B (5:04)

Thank you.

A (5:04)

And, like, you. You and I bump into each other in the. Randomly, but it always happens. It's like a year doesn't go by where we don't randomly sort of bump into each other, whether it's on Abbot Kinney or in New York City or, like, somewhere in Austin, like, because I think we've randomly bumped into each other in a lot of cities.

B (5:23)

Totally.

A (5:24)

Yeah. So I. It's. It's been really Incredible to see how you have created this arena around your. Your energy, because I think ultimately for you and I. And I can kind of identify that you are an energy human. And, you know, energy is a real thing. It's a real thing.

B (5:48)

It just is.

A (5:49)

And, you know, and, and the way I really know it's, It's. It's a real thing is, is I'm a dog, dude. I've got dogs. I've had dogs for a long time, and dogs don't speak English. They don't. They speak energy. And so when I can sit and watch my dog dogs, the way they feel or experience when somebody new comes into my house, immediately they are able to size someone up. And then their action based off of their energy, like, the, The. The. The energy that they feel from that person is. Is going to go one of two ways. They're going to run up to them and they're going to kiss them and lick their hands and they're going to be so happy, or they're going to sit down and stare at that human, which is not always the greatest because I've got two big dogs, right? And so your energy is just a real thing, dude. And I love it.

B (6:53)

Thank you, my brother.

A (6:54)

I really do, man.

B (6:54)

That means so much.

A (6:55)

It's the facts more than, you know. How do I vet, right, allocate my energy in terms of people? Well, you know, I was driving home last night from a really great podcast interview with our boy Jake, and then I was, oh, look at that bar. Yes, she's a beaut. She's a beaut. And I was driving, I was driving back and I was like, you know, it's so interesting how, like, days finish and they end, right? Like, that's a weird concept, right? Like, you wake up, the day starts, and then almost like before you know it, like, you're finishing up the day, right? And I'm driving back and I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, I. I genuinely feel blessed, genuinely feel blessed with the life that I'm living right now. Like, I genuinely do feel blessed with all of the awesome and the hard stuff that I have to go through on a regular basis. We're human, all of us. I'm not unique. That's all humans, right? Days, you know, consist of hills and valleys just the way it is. But, like, I feel like I have been able to figure out a way to maneuver through my life and through the days where I've been, like, I like, pepper in, like, the peppering in of humans, like I don't have to curate it too much because I feel like the people that end up on my calendar that I'm to meet

B (8:38)

are

A (8:38)

just the right people. And I don't know how that happens. I really don't. And like, it's rare these days. I used to struggle with this a lot as an earlier entrepreneur, early entrepreneur, where I would just feel that I had to just say yes to everybody that like was knocking on the door or the door was just open and just like people would just fucking walk right in. And honestly today I feel like the door is still wide open and, but the, the, the, the people that have entered are valuable in my life. And so I really don't think that I've had to like necessarily curate it too much because I think I've surrounded myself with enough really smart people that have helped me a lot in like, I don't, I don't know how to answer that question without saying that I have a lot of help around me today. Like a lot of great people. And I don't mean those are people that are on my payroll. I mean that like I have just surrounded myself with the right people so that the people that are reaching out are all people that I want to be with. Does that make sense?

B (9:49)

Yes, 100%. And in pursuit of like a teachable skill that's transferable to someone who's listening. Think about it the other way. When you, when you're surrounded by someone who you're like, I don't fuck with this person. Or like, maybe it's not. I mean in my brain it's like, I don't fuck with you, but maybe for you it's something else. Is there like a sensation that goes on in your body? Is there like a spidey sense? Like with the dogs who can tell? Like, I sit and watch when I don't trust, I lick when I do. If you were to flip it, is there, is there a way that like you can identify when like someone is not your vibe or has taking energy or. Yeah, so I guess something out of you.

A (10:39)

I think, I think the way it's, it's, it's sort of worked at this point for me is like pushy people don't make sense for me. I'm not saying. People with like conviction don't make sense for me. I'm saying pushy people tend to be self centered and consumed and they don't think about how I am perceiving their relentless annoyance.

B (11:20)

Totally. People that can't read the room, people

A (11:23)

that can't read the room, can't read the energy.

B (11:24)

You can't tell. Like, I'm, I'm like, sometimes I'll be like, intentionally cross my arms to see if I can get. Shut the fuck up. Or like, I'll start looking away. Like, intentionally. Like I'll, I'll be, I'll get to the. Won't even be my adult adhd. It'll be like my true intention to like, get distracted in the middle of a conversation. And they still pursue.

A (11:48)

This is a great depiction of what I'm trying to say here. If you write me a DM that starts with the line, I don't want to waste your time. Let me cut to the chase. It's never going to work. Never going to work. I don't know who you are. You're trying to sell me something. Obviously you've already wasted my time for me just reading the headline of your DM another way for that person. I don't want to waste your time. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna cut to the chase. Would be comment something engaging on my post on social media. If you're trying to get me through social media, write something like real and engaging on, on a post now, now you've like, brought value to the conversation, you know what I'm saying? And, and maybe, maybe we'll end up with the same outcome, which is like, no, I don't want your SaaS service, but at least now I'm interested in like having a conversation with somebody who's bringing value, completely starting a conversation. So like, I think that is ultimately, like, I'm not saying everybody in my life is bringing value to my life. I'm saying that most of the people that I surround myself with today, thank God. Like, it, it's, it's. And it was not always this way. But most of the people that I surround myself with also surround themselves with like, valuable human beings totally. And typically, like, you know, I kind of think of it like cells, right? They like, they like mastercise, you know, and, and if you look to your left and you look to your right and there's not someone on the left and on the right that inspires you or that you want to emulate in some way, shape or form, or you see yourself feeling proud, like you feel proud to be to the person to your left and to your right. Like, if, if, if you don't ever feel that way, how do you expect to get to where you want to go?

B (14:14)

That's the teachable line. Someone that you want to emulate someone that inspires you, Someone that, like, you're just, like, proud to be friends with them, proud to have them in your circle.

A (14:25)

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B (16:19)

Totally.

A (16:19)

If you want to be a super successful CPG founder, but you are, you know, hanging out with a group of people that are judging all of the super successful CPG founders, because we know how that is, right? Like, oh, yeah, those guys are buying all their buying. They're buying their, their scale, they're buying their growth. Like, like, that crew is never gonna, like, get you to where you want to go.

B (16:53)

Never.

A (16:54)

You know what I'm saying?

B (16:55)

Yeah, 100%. Like, so much of the success that Thesis saw in that, like, monumental hockey stick growth, those hockey stick growth years was simply the fact that I had this incredible group of founders that were 18 months ahead of me that I could email a very specific question to and be like here's the problem, here's what we've tried. What did you guys do? And I just had like if I emailed them, if I reached out, I had 100 certainty that whatever they told me I was going to execute on that's. That was basically the growth engine. The growth engine was like 12 to 15 guys that had were 12 to 18 months ahead of me that were. That I could write super concise direct emails to with very specific requests and they would just tell me what to do and introduce me to the person that did it for them.

A (17:53)

I want you to, to just quickly walk us through the last like 11 years of your life and, and, and in regards to entrepreneurship.

B (18:01)

Okay, cool. So when we first met that's I had, I had was just starting my first supplement brand called Go, which I did for a year and a half. Failed. I didn't. I was just like learning E Com. I was learning cpg, I was learning all this stuff. What was Go Go was like a nootropic pre workout but different than what the formula and then Thesis ended up being which was really pushing into the personalization side. So in Go what I figured out was one definitely how to build like a partnerships group. That's when I really started to insert myself into like the fitness underbelly. It was. That's how I met Kenny and Eric Hinman and which led me to you and everybody else. Then we then formula happened because I just had this insatiable desire to bring nootropics to the world. I knew how important they were. I knew that everyone needed to to be taking them and or the people that needed to be taking them needed to be taking them. I just felt that there needed to be one more thing to make it a little bit easier and more trustworthy. And that was when the personalization train was taking off. That's when Kara Vitamins was like crushing. And so we very much like rode that wave but just like combined it with nootropics. And then yeah, I mean we figured it out. We leaned very heavily into Facebook and we were like we are going to become world class paid paid Facebook marketers. We combine that with like a maniacal attention to sourcing and product efficacy which kind of was a byproduct of making it personalized because everyone was just getting the stack that they needed. But also like really good retention, really good customer experience and then just, just becoming top 5% in the world on Facebook page which ended up being Getting really good on the creative side.

A (20:07)

And I just. Quick question there. I just want to. I'll pause you throughout this, this, this trajectory because I just want to. So for, I mean this isn't going to be relevant to everybody, but you and I are in this world of cpg, ecom, biz, right? What percentage do you think makes up the hundred percent of success in media, paid media? What percentage of it is creative to good paid strategy?

B (20:37)

I'm super biased, but 90.

A (20:40)

90 creative to 10% paid strategy.

B (20:43)

Yeah, I mean I'm not. I'm much better on the creative side than I am on the, on the media strategy side. But even the smartest guy there, there, there are definitely guys that I work with who are like, whoa. Like the way that you look at structuring accounts and the, the paid side is elite. But I truly believe the algorithm can do 90% of it as good. And then maybe that the last 10% gives an extra edge to like the truly elite buyers, you know, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to stay on top of it and turn things off and move things around. And it still requires a lot of attention to detail. But I think, you know, the Andromeda algorithm is doing a lot of the heavy lifting.

A (21:38)

What do you think creatively is more powerful for conversion benefits and unique selling points or mission and purpose driven? Like.

B (21:58)

Yep. I think the answer is credibility. My North Star in paid is always manufacturing credibility. Now credibility, you can get to a bunch of ways. One is you can have in our world, letters behind your name. You know, we're, we're hap. We're putting doctors, we're putting real research, we're putting registered nurses or dietitians in the ads and creating like a second is like a familiar face. One of the main reasons that creatures of habit got so big so quick was because you already were so recognizable as Mike Chernow. But. And then third way to manufacture credibility is this idea of problem evangelism. So there is a cognitive bias that not a lot of people talk about that a lot of people call it the, the theory of problem evangelism. And it's basically this subconscious trigger that goes off in people's brains when you do a remarkable job at articulating someone's plight or struggle in life. And it has been used in like direct response marketing and marketing in general and media for like hundred, a hundred years. If you ever look at like a New York Times article, the first two paragraphs are just articulating how up everything is because there's something that goes on when, when you look into the screen and you look on the piece of paper and someone's able to get to your level where you think like wow, that person really understands what I'm going through. That person really understands they must.

A (23:31)

And then people identify way quicker to a problem than they do to a win.

B (23:36)

Totally. Okay, totally.

A (23:38)

I, I, I get that.

B (23:39)

And what happens is in their brain is it says wow, this person knows exactly what I'm going through. They must have already done all the research to figure out the best solution before they even got on they, before they picked up the pen or picked up the phone. And so there's this if, if you can really nail the problem there's, there's so many ways to do it. Right.

A (24:01)

So like leading with benefits and usps which would unique selling points is just not a winning formula because people, you're already telling them the solution for a problem that you haven't necessarily identified yet.

B (24:15)

Yeah. Is, I mean depending on where they are in the funnel. The my overall answer is yes.

A (24:20)

So tell your top of funnel because top of funnel is the hardest.

B (24:24)

Totally.

A (24:25)

Right. Like you, once you get a qualified customer into your funnel, cultivating them and keeping them warm and keeping them stoked is a little bit easier than actually getting them into the funnel because typically someone that's in the funnel is already interested. Right. So how do you. So let's talk top of funnel.

B (24:41)

So it's, it's always so as I think about it it's are they aware of the problem? Do they know something's up? Do they know something's wrong in their life? And then do they know? Are they solution aware? So it's problem aware at the top solution aware. Do they know that there's something out there that can solve this product aware. Do they know creatures of habit exists? And then finally is like just showing them how much better. So top, top, top of funnel. I'm starting to real think through

A (25:13)

and,

B (25:13)

and now especially on Facebook the, the algorithm does such a good job at micro targeting people that you can make creative for very specific problem sets. And so like you could we. The way that I think about creative is like I'm taking every niche and I'm making separate creative just talking about their problem and then leaving it to the algorithm to find the 35 year old moms who have redheaded kids who like have sun issue, who have like an issue in the sun and have adhd. Like you can get so granular with like who it is you're Targeting and the algorithm will find them in a really efficient way so you can talk about like really niche problems. And so for like a food product like this, you know, we can, you know, moms are expensive to acquire on Facebook, but they're also incredibly loyal. So higher LTVs, a little bit more on, on the acquisition side, but higher LTVs. You know, I would start thinking about like, what are all the problems that a 35 year old mother would have? You know, can you get their kid to eat? You know, what are they nutrient deficient in? Are they lactose intolerant? And so you start being able to find like all of these little problems and then just leading with those because as soon as you hit it, someone's like, ooh, I have that problem. Let me listen to what is going on. That's what kind of like gets the, that's what gets their attention. Does that make sense?

A (26:54)

No, no, no. That does, it makes sense. I am just kind of caught in this spot now with, I am sifting your brain right now because I just think that I am caught in this spot where we've had success on meta and on Google and we put a lot of our energy towards meta. It's a lot easier to acquire customers with reviews on Amazon. So reviews are really all you need to worry about. So what are you doing to drive conversion to get people to write reviews for you? So that's been good for specifically the bar.

B (27:31)

Amazing.

A (27:31)

But when can I like emotion? In my opinion, like when you evoke feeling and you evoke emotion. That is when people, and I hate to use this, but it's just the business that we're in make impulse decisions. Right? Like that is it. Right? Like we're, we're trying to figure out how to be, how to make people want to push a button fast and try something and then hope that it helps them in their life. Right?

B (28:03)

But like that don't villainize impulse decisions because it's also a really efficient way to go about moving your life forward. Sometimes when I'm too calculated and I take too much time considering things, it just bottlenecks my entire process. And so I think that allowing someone to make quick and easy decisions and making it so simple to, that they quote, unquote, make an impulse buy is could actually be measured as a positive for them moving forward.

A (28:34)

Okay, so, okay, so, so I'm going to continue to interrupt you as you continue walking through your, the journey. So let's keep going. So now we're at, we're at, we're at Formula. You haven't talked about the transition to Thesis yet, but you guys talked about like your undeniable commitment to being like one of the best Meta.

B (28:55)

Yeah.

A (28:55)

Creative paid people.

B (28:57)

Yep. It was just like.

A (28:59)

And this is still when it was like reasonable, right, Like Meta. Right.

B (29:03)

Meta was reasonable then. Yeah, yeah. This is like2020, 2020 21. You know, the, everyone had pulled out. A lot of the big spenders on Meta had pulled out. The hotels had pulled out, the airlines had pulled out, all the car companies had pulled out. And so the Meta just needed as much spend in as possible and so a lot of the costs went down. Yeah. So it was just, it was, it was a really good time to have a product that people wanted and to be good at Meta. So in the beginning of 2021 we realized we can't get a, a trademark for the name Formula because it's too descriptive of what the product is. And so we end up doing a rebrand to the name Thesis. And that's Formula has now become Thesis. That happened in October of 2021. And then I realized I wasn't the right guy to run the company anymore.

A (30:04)

What was that like?

B (30:05)

Oh, that was insanely emotional because finally after, you know, I'm 36, 37, I finally had a company that was crushing and I made it. And you know, we had raised a bunch of money and like all the, and then I, we hit 50 employees and the conflicts, the disagreements, the misalignments, they start. And you know, I have to come to this realization that the company had, I say it, I, I don't think everybody would agree with this, but I can, I believe that the company had outgrown me and I was no longer the right person to sit in my seat. And so I removed myself. And yeah, it was a lot of, it was, it was a lot of really tough conversations with my co founder. It was seeking help, therapy and coaches and mediators and a lot of time on the phone with my mom to make sure she still loved me, which obviously she unconditionally does. And, but it was really, really tough. And you know, in December, November, December of 2021, I decided that the company would be better off if Dan, my co founder, was the solo visionary behind it. And I stepped away. And then I moved to California. And then it was like six months of me just being like, again, like, did I finally have a win? And then did I. And then did I squander it? And there was a lot of self hate, there was a lot of self

A (31:53)

doubt, like you feel, you feel like you could have potentially self sabotaged that, that thing.

B (32:00)

I don't even think I gave myself enough credit that I to the word like self sabotage came in. I think it was more like you're so like the internal dialogue was you are so incompetent that finally you get a W and then you can't hold on to it was like what I think the first two or three months of inner dialogue, that's powerful.

A (32:23)

And then, but that was all would you say now looking back on it in retrospect, totally fabricated?

B (32:34)

I think that yes and no. I would say that the company grew faster than I did, the company learned faster than I did, but I needed that. I needed to realize where my shortcomings were and what. And that I wasn't this like that I needed to create systems and processes around me to constantly assess where my weaknesses were and then build systems to fill them up. So this I, you know, like I always loved learning and growing, but I never, I never looked at it as like my learning and growing needs to be directly related to where the company is outgrowing me. So that was really good. I also was never really a systems thinker. I was more of like this creative like bull in a china shop, like gonna outwork everybody, gonna like try everything that I could. And what I realized was like in a large organization of 50 plus people, there needs to be like organization and communication and process built into that. And so the pain that I felt from not being a systems thinker and not thinking in like very detailed, easy to communicate, step by step processes made. It was like I needed to feel that pain of that part of me that I hadn't yet developed so that I could start my next thing where the entire focus of it was just like process and systems.

A (34:25)

Let me ask you a question. I'm curious and you don't have to answer if there's any. Do you think that there is some level of choice in co founder for you? Like do you think that they're like, do you think that you were working with the right person to be able to not have that, that. You know, I, I relate to this conversation a lot and sometimes I, you know, because I had, I had, you know, I, I'll never have a partner again. I'll never, I'll never have a co founder. I won't unless it's like absolutely necessary. But I work way better as a founder than as a co founder

B (35:16)

and

A (35:16)

I, and I've had two co founders in my life that both relationships were very, very difficult after the business got successful, business got successful, relationship with co founder got unsuccessful. And so I just, I, and, and I too, not necessarily as much in my second business but in my first business, man did I, did I just, just hate myself. Like totally, totally internalized all the things that were happening in our relationship. My co founder and I and, and, and just the, the negative self talk was just so bad. Like I'm, I'm, there's, I'm just not smart enough for this. I'm just not, I'm. There's, I don't know enough. I'm not, I'm not business savvy enough. I'm just a creative dreamer thinker. Like that's not what these businesses need. These businesses needs P and L thumpers and like hardcore systems and processes people. And I just don't walk through life that way. I walk through life like I'm going to give you the best idea possible. I'm going to ask, I'm going to get all the people around me to get this idea done and up and running and off the ground and then I'm going to try to ask for help along the way to get all the smarter people, intellectually smarter, more you know, functionally smarter people to like help me push this thing forward. But maybe the functionally smarter and the intellectually smarter people are really all the ones that are necessary and I am useless. Like those were the thoughts.

B (36:37)

Same shit, bro.

A (36:40)

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B (37:20)

There is no doubt in my mind that my thesis co founder was the one of the greatest gifts that God has ever given me. I and I love him to this day. And he taught me so much and I grew up so much being around him. We are, we are. Our brains fundamentally work very differently. You know, I'm like more right brain creative. He's more left brain logical, hyper intellectual. But he was a gift. He continues to be a gift. I love him dearly. He is one of the most savage E com operators in the world, cares so deeply, is so high integrity, always tells the truth. And I love him, love him, love him dearly. However, I did, in my own brain, internalize and take personally a lot of the things that were going on, and I allowed them to kind of, like, eat me from the inside.

A (38:19)

Because you just didn't feel adequate enough.

B (38:21)

I didn't feel adequate enough. I didn't feel that.

A (38:24)

I think that happens a lot. I think that happens with a lot. With a lot of creative people, I think. Creative people. You know, I, I, I, I. I remember I used to always say, I'm never the smartest guy at the table. And not that I think I'm the smartest guy at the table today, but telling myself that story, yeah, I'm never the smartest guy at the table in my mind is saying, I'm not smart in my mind, me that I kind of. I kind of express it as, oh, I'm not the smartest guy at the table. I surround myself with really smart guys. But really what I'm feeling is I'm not. I'm not too smart. And I think because we're. I mean, if I really peel that. Peeled it back and really, like, we grow up in an academic curriculum, right? We grow up in an academic curriculum.

B (39:35)

Our scoreboard is A's, B's, and C's.

A (39:37)

Math, science, social studies, history.

B (39:41)

Totally.

A (39:42)

Nobody gives. Like, if you're like, yeah. You know, like, when people say they went to college and they majored in English, they're like, I majored in English. And it's like, poo poo. Right? Because, like, English is, like, creative, and, like, you're gonna. What are you gonna be? A writer? You know what I mean? You didn't go to. And so, you know, we grow up. We're cultivated in this academic environment where it's like, how you are judged based on your memory, your ability to retain information, and your, like, mental acuity when it comes to numbers and letters.

B (40:18)

Mm.

A (40:19)

Not how creative you are.

B (40:22)

Totally, totally.

A (40:24)

You know what I'm saying? And so I think that plays a big role in the way creative people that get that get successful outside of, like, the top 1%. Right. Like, I doubt Taylor Swift is, Is. Is like, yeah, I'm inadequate. Right, Right. She's like.

B (40:47)

But she's also a savage on the business side. And, like, she learned that truth. She. She, like, balanced it with. She's got a lot of.

A (40:55)

Okay, she was a bad example. Right. Like, I doubt jelly roll is like, I'm inadequate. Right. You know what?

B (41:02)

I mean, totally, totally.

A (41:04)

So like, I just, I. I think that that is like, for the creative entrepreneur, I would just. My advice is don't have a co founder. That's my advice. If you're the creative entrepreneur, if you are coming to the table with the emotional, heartstring, good looking vision, dream takes a lot of audacity for a human being to have an idea and think that they can convince millions of people to want to partake in it. A lot of audacity. It just does. And typically the financially leaning people, the financially focused people don't have that audacity because on paper it doesn't work. Doesn't work. Right. Like, oh yeah, your idea, like your idea is going to convert into this. They don't think that way.

B (42:08)

Totally.

A (42:09)

But you are like. No, no, no. Like this idea that I have, like, there's no doubt in my mind that people are gonna hop on board and they're gonna ride this wave. And so I think for the creative entrepreneur like you and like me, without you and me, there's no P Ls to review.

B (42:33)

Mm, totally.

A (42:35)

There's no P and L to review.

B (42:37)

So I think there's. There's two things that come up in my mind at this moment. One is this idea of Reality distortion fields. Have you heard about this? No. So reality distortion fields was. It's actually a Steve Jobs process. It's a Steve Jobs thing where people used to say that Jobs could go into rooms and he had such incredible certainty of the future that he would, In a. No matter how logical the thinkers were, he had such certainty and just. Yeah, certainty, unnegotiable push towards this new future that he could shift the brain waves of everyone in the room. And it's been studied and there's a bunch of stuff out there on Reality Distortion Fields. And it's like a learnable, It's a learnable technique about how you deliver and substantiate and continuously push your concept and your idea and your vision for the future. And for someone who is like this, you know, it is like the Jobs Wozniak dynamic, right? Where Jobs was the visionary and Woz was the integrator. And then the other. The second thing that I was going to say is there's this book called Traction which talks about eos, which is the entrepreneurs operating store.

A (44:05)

I know. Oh well, I had Gino on a podcast.

B (44:07)

Oh shit. Okay, cool. And, and so this is like the classic area of like maybe some of these titles in creative led. Creative LED startups where it's Like I'm the co founder and CEO. I'm the co, founder and coo can be used like Gino's terminology of visionary. Like title visionary. Like CEO is actually a visionary. COO is actually integrator and re scoping these titles and these roles. So the expectation of the individuals changes. I really like that because I am a classic visionary. And the company I'm running now, my co founder is a classic integrator. And me like having like, I don't need to be the CEO. Neither of us are the CEO.

A (45:02)

You just want to be the visionary.

B (45:04)

I'm the visionary. I'm like setting the energy. I am like constantly like considering, like, where are we in three years? Where are we in five years?

A (45:14)

And you're filling the, you're filling the bucket all the time. All the time, all the time.

B (45:20)

Including the individuals on my team. Where are you in three months? Where you in six? I have a visionary for the business. I have a visionary for every one of our client. I have a vision for every one of our clients. I have a vision for every human. I have a vision for every department. I'm I'm sitting with, like, okay, this is my strategy department. Like, this is how we're operating now. Like, what's the vision for this department? And so it's not just, I think the role of the visionary or the creative entrepreneur is to take that vision and not just like, not just sit at the top being like, oh, the business is going here, the business is going there. But getting deeply involved in every single node of it, every single department, every single human, every single client. And also using that visionary power to craft and like reality distort what they believe is possible for the future. Yeah. This conversation could now go into simulation theory and I could talk about how we don't live in a reality and it's all made up by our minds. And I have, I have, I can substantiate that as well. But like, I think like all my. Yeah, I think all of these things connect.

A (46:30)

I think that. And I've witnessed this firsthand.

B (46:36)

The.

A (46:38)

I love going from CEO to visionary, COO to integrator. I, I feel like that would, I would, I think I'm going to actually implement that. I think that that sounds so much nicer and I think it, it. There's a level of, there's just like a warmth to it. That CEO, COO is like very 90 degree angle. Visionary, founder, I mean visionary and an integrator just feels like a rounded edge.

B (47:10)

Yes.

A (47:10)

You know, my experience with this as a traditional visionary, inherent visionary, intuitive, where my brain goes. And I think the, a big role of, of what this person is, because they're visionaries, is consistently introducing innovation. Nonstop, constantly proposing innovation, not with the hopes that everything you bring to the table is going to get implemented, but with the hopes that one of your 10 ideas will get picked up. Because what I found was when I stepped away from the meatball shop in 2015, I was, I had my foot on the gas the whole time. We opened up five restaurants in three and a half years. It was wild how quick I've. I had my foot on the gas the whole time. Not that I was, that we were making like, bad decisions, but we were making decisions and I was constantly introducing creative ideas so that we could enhance the experience, enhance our partnerships. We were the first. There was never another restaurant in New York that was doing collabs. Just didn't exist. Yeah, no one ever did that. And I was like, oh, I fucking love vans. Most of the people that come to this meatball shop, half of them wear vans. We're doing a meatball shop, Vance. Steve Van Dorn loves the meatball shop. We're going to do our custom vans. I've never had a, I've never heard of a restaurant doing a fucking sneaker before now. I mean, I'm not going to take the, the, the, the trophy for that, but like, no one had ever done a sneaker for a restaurant before. The meatball shop totally didn't do it. Now you see restaurants and chefs doing all sorts of cool like that. Yeah. But I'm just saying. So when I stepped away from the meatball shop, the innovation river stopped, you know, And I think it's hard for implementers and integrators to get a flow of innovation all the time because they then have to say, well, okay, I mean, if we do this, I'm going to have to do this.

B (49:57)

So I think there's another level of responsibility that sits on the shoulders of the visionary.

A (50:02)

Money.

B (50:04)

It's money. But even in terms of like, there's, there's constantly proposing what to do. So having like this innovation around what to do, which creates a big to do list and it creates decision, potentially decision fatigue on the integrator. But I also think that there's some innovation that can come from your brain on how to do this. So the guys who run Element James, they've changed. They, they don't use the word innovation, they use the word transcend. And so they're always looking for ways to See how the. The thing is being done in the. In the CPG world and transcend it or make it a little bit different. And so they have. So it's always like, what are we doing that's different, but also using that visionary. How are we doing this differently? And so when you introduce what are we doing different? What are we doing to innovate or transcend? We're adding to do list to the integrators. When we have vision or innovation on how we do it, what is the process? How do we make this easier, shorter, how do we completely rethink it? It's still using our innovation brain. It's still using our visionary brain, but it's making the integrator's life a little bit easier or different. And so there. We don't always want to just be, like, more like, putting more on their plate. We also want to be taking things off of their plate.

A (51:35)

And.

B (51:35)

And I think, like, in this role of visionary that is, at least in my companies, I look at it both, like, what we're doing, like, vision on what we're doing and vision on how we're doing it. So I'm adding stuff and I'm taking things away.

A (51:49)

Hmm. So you are an integral piece of the implementation process as well.

B (51:57)

Yeah.

A (51:57)

Or at least you're. At least that's the goal.

B (51:59)

I mean, the integration team that I have built around me is my life force. It is the only way that I will see the manifestation of any of my dreams. They. They are outside of my family and my girlfriend. They are the most important things. They are the ones that bring my ethereal ideas into reality. And so, yeah, I want to be making their life as easy as possible while also being able to push them and figure out where their upper limits are for execution and speed and quality.

A (52:39)

Okay, I want you to take a bite of that protein bar, because I'm staring at it and looks fucking damn good. And I want you to then tell us.

B (52:48)

Snickers with protein. That's really the first thing. Mike gave me one yesterday. I saw him for the first time in a while yesterday, and that's the first thing that went through my mom as I was walking out of Gold's gym.

A (52:59)

I'll take it. I like Snickers with protein.

B (53:01)

It's important that these things taste good. You know, it's. It's so funny being around cpg. Everyone's coming up. I'm putting this ingredient, and I'm putting that ingredient. At the end of the day, all these things. How good does this taste, it really just comes out.

A (53:14)

I think you're right.

B (53:15)

It's. It's always how good for this day.

A (53:16)

I think you're right.

B (53:17)

It's like does it taste good? And how much guilt can you remove? So like this, right?

A (53:26)

It's true. That is why it took me two years plus to make that bar. Everybody was. Was not happy with how long that took me. And it's not because of a shortage of the ability to make a. Make a decision. It's because the. The thing didn't taste good until it did. You know what I'm saying?

B (53:50)

This is very low guilt. It is very high taste. Very low guilt. And it has creatine green and protein. I mean come on, man.

A (54:01)

Would you eat that thing like every day?

B (54:05)

I the my own. The only thing that would push back is it's just carby. I mean but creatures of habit is just a car is the as a brand is is carb forward. My body doesn't process a lot of carbs. So I can see having two or three of these a week. Probably not seven a week.

A (54:21)

That's great feedback. Okay, so you step away from. From. From thesis hard decision. Kicking yourself hard. You're not feeling good.

B (54:32)

Yep.

A (54:33)

You're. You're. You're tapping into resources therapy mom.

B (54:38)

Just like I hired coaches trying to

A (54:41)

build your confidence back up kind of when. When got taken out of your sales. Okay, so now where are you?

B (54:48)

I moved to Venice. So I moved from New York to LA to be closer to ocean. I love to surf. It was like it's the. It's probably the. It's. It's the most powerful medicine in my life is being in the ocean. I wanted to be and I just needed, you know, 15 years on Manhattan. I mean you grew up there and then you also took yourself off of. Off of Manhattan, out of Brooklyn. You were in Brooklyn and then. Then went upstate. But the. The nervous system reboot that happened when I took myself out off of Manhattan island. And how kind I was to myself and how I spoke to myself like completely shifted within the first 30 days of being in LA. And then, you know, I just. I kind of like dated LA for like three or four months. And then finally I was like, I'm moving here. I went back to New York, sold my apartment, I bought a car. I gave away 70 of my belongings. I put the. The 30 that I still had in the back of the Jeep and I drove out here.

A (55:53)

What was that drive like?

B (55:55)

It was so cool.

A (55:56)

It was you alone?

B (55:57)

No, I drove with My buddy, Travis Brewer. Do you know Travis?

A (56:00)

I don't know.

B (56:01)

Is. Is an American ninja warrior. Oh, yeah.

A (56:03)

Okay. I know. He's great.

B (56:04)

He's. He's just like, he's such an angel. And he's still one of my best friends to this day. And he just happened to be on the east coast with it for like some family stuff and. And I was. Yeah. And I just like drove down, picked him up and we just drove across the country. You know, it was so fun. It was so fun. We stopped, we stopped at deserts and, you know, in different cities that we felt called to and saw friends along the way. It was really.

A (56:31)

Did you like, take your time? No, you, you.

B (56:34)

I booked it.

A (56:35)

Okay.

B (56:35)

We booked it. And that was, that's probably the one regret I did. We did it in like seven days. I probably should have done it in 30.

A (56:41)

Copy. Okay.

B (56:43)

But driving a lot of driving across the country is, is. I didn't realize until I went backpacking in Asia that there were so many more people that were not born or live in the United States that had seen way more of this country than I had. I grew, I grew up upstate New York, moved to the city right after college, you know, just like played in Manhattan for 15 years and then moved to LA. Like just like bubble to bubble. But there's so much of this country that is so juicy, indifferent. And we like don't even realize like how cool the flyover states are.

A (57:22)

I have a plan to do a cross country trip with my wife and kids. I think they're at an age now where it could work. And the way I've kind of like strategized on how to do it so that it doesn't feel like like nonstop driving is to really take our time. I would obviously have to figure out how to like how many hours it would actually take. I mean, driving hours it actually takes to get across the country in order to split this out probably. But the thought for me was drive three hours, chill somewhere. Drive three hours, sleep at night, take to spend the night. So basically be like between six and eight hours a day, which I don't think is terrible. And you plan your trip that way and you break up the driving. So it's not like these 8 hour blocks, 10 hour blocks, 14 hour blocks. It's just like you slow it down and then and you do two three hour blocks or two four hour blocks and you just make your way across the country. And I think that would be so dope.

B (58:21)

I, I love that. Yeah, we, we did it. In six days, we drove 10 hours a day. So I would say you have about to get from New York to LA. You have about 60 hours of driving.

A (58:31)

Okay.

B (58:32)

And that might, that, that, that's just like my back of napkin math.

A (58:36)

So if it was 60 hours of driving, it would be six hours a day, 10 days straight.

B (58:42)

That's, that's what it ended up being for me.

A (58:43)

Okay.

B (58:45)

And it was basically a straight shot. I just went straight down 95.

A (58:48)

You did 10 hours a day? Six days. I would. Okay, gotcha.

B (58:51)

So, like, but if, if you want to extend it to like a month long thing and this.

A (58:56)

Spend a couple nights in places as opposed.

B (58:58)

Yeah, you can spend a few nights in places.

A (59:00)

All right, so let's keep going.

B (59:01)

You moved to la, move to la. And then, you know, anytime I'm really out of balance and just like feel unclear and anxious. One thing that my teachers have taught me is like to bias yourself towards sharing and giving.

A (59:22)

What kind of teachers?

B (59:24)

Spiritual teachers. I've had spirit. Yeah, I've had spiritual teachers, you know, whatever you want to call them, gurus, coaches. For 20 years, most influential people in my life.

A (59:36)

Like, who's the most influential?

B (59:38)

His name is Benjamin Malul. He's a Kabbalah teacher, lives in New York, grew up in Israel. Military? Yeah. He's like, outside of my parents, the most important person in my life.

A (59:50)

Copy that. He.

B (59:53)

So they were like, share, give, share. So in la, I was like, okay. Like, I just. We just had this rocket ship business. We created a bunch of like, processes and systems. We did a lot of things right, we did a lot of things wrong. Let me just see if I can give away any of these SOPs. And so for the next six months, I just called up all of my other CPG buddies. You were on that list. And I was like, how can I help? Let me see if there is something that, like mistakes that we made that can save you six or eight months of experimentation. And so that's what I did for free, every day, all day, just looking under the hood. Share your Shopify with me. Share your ads manager with me. Let me see if there's something I can do to help. And then you know that I, that I came out of that with like the coolest insight of, like, whether you were doing 400k a year or 400 million a year, you basically. All these businesses had the exact same problems. Problem one, retention. Problem two, what ad am I going to run next on Facebook? And problem three, if you were under 10 million a year in revenue, it was generally fundraising and if you were over 10 million a year in revenue, it was generally talent acquisition or hiring. And then I was like okay, like I'm really good at making ads for Facebook or now meta. So then I just, I started a creative studio and we just, we just worked with, we just work with CPG brands, make them ad creative. That's it. And now I'm here.

A (61:34)

And how long has that agency been up?

B (61:37)

Three years. More like 25 people. We're having a blast. It's like pure creativity. You know, I don't have to worry about like customer service tickets and stuff, supply chain issues and you know, dealing with investors and any of that stuff is just like what is some weird shit we can put out on the Internet to try to, to try to sell these products.

A (61:59)

And for CPG founders that are listening that would be interested in learning more

B (62:02)

about that was F R I J Co and Fridge Company.

A (62:07)

Is there something that you guys like feel like you are expert in specifically? Is there like a genre that you love to play in the sandbox of in.

B (62:15)

Yeah, health and wellness ingestible copy. We, we, I mean listen, we tried fashion. Failed. We tried apps. We failed. We tried some other like more beauty, aesthetic, luxury stuff. We failed. The way that my brain works and the way that our systems work, it's like we need a really good problem if, if we can get like a really good problem to get our hands head around, we can probably make ads that convert at a really high level.

A (62:43)

Okay. In the beginning of the wind down I want to ask you to speak to the, and I mean I, I, I, I didn't know what we were going to talk about necessarily today. I did want to pick your brain a little bit on Kabbalah, but I think I want to bring you back on for that because I think that that's a whole podcast in itself. Yeah, This is way more a CPG entrepreneurship like E Com combo which I think is great because I think a lot of people that listen to this podcast are either involved in that or interested in, in that and so it's engaging. So for the either like aspiring or early day founder you've been through, you've, you've seen a number of things happen across your, you know, 15 years of building business and, and now making content for businesses to succeed and you see what works and what doesn't work. What are the top three things that they should be thinking about for a CPG DTC brand? Mm.

B (63:52)

I mean I'm going to go back to the problem like, are you solving a problem that people give a shit about?

A (63:59)

Give me a great problem, a really, really great sticky problem that you've seen that has just been like, this is an undeniable problem that people battle with and convert really well on.

B (64:13)

I mean, weight loss, okay? It's just, it's the, it's the, the vanity thing. It's like feeling desirable and feeling sexy. Weight loss will always work.

A (64:25)

So like a great example for that is like creatures have a daily bar is a 250 calorie bar. You're looking to lose weight, so you want to eat food that keeps you satiated for a long period of time. This is the perfect snack. It's going to keep you full from lunch all the way to dinner. No more, no more like, like, no

B (64:41)

more noshing, you know, and, and even like the reason, you know, I would even just jump to the, to the punchline where it's like the reason that you can't lose weight is because you can't control your, your appetite with satiation. Yeah. You're constantly, you just like don't feel full. And the reason you don't feel full is because what you're putting in your body is you're just putting the wrong stuff in your body. And this is, this is it. Okay.

A (65:10)

All right. So that's a great problem.

B (65:11)

So, so other, other problems that I see kind of just like working a lot anytime it right now, keeping your pet healthy is a big one. If you can keep your pet healthy or the, the longer you can help someone's pet live, the likelihood that they'll buy something. You know, we obviously I built two companies based on focus and someone's ability to be productive, make money. I think if it's a pro. I think the reason that I was the right fit to run Thesis and then Stasis was because it was a problem that I directly felt and that I was willing to pay for. I think that there are good problems and there are problems that people are willing to pay for. And the third is like, is it a problem that the founder really gives a shit about? Is it something that your mom dealt with or that a family member dealt with or that you're dealing with? And is it something that you have been able to solve and you just saw like this insane uptick in the quality of your existence and is this, is there a deep desire in you to see other people feel the feeling and have the experience that you had? And if those things are all kind of playing there, then I think you're probably on to a good problem.

A (66:46)

Okay, so number one, is your thing really creating a problem?

B (66:49)

Do you want to learn about it? The thing that you're doing, like, how curious are you about it? So my theory on building businesses and hiring people right now, it has gone. It used to be like, how much do you know about it or how much experience do you have? And now because everything is changing in the way we do, everything is changing so fast. This world is all about knowledge acquisition. How quick can you learn what the new way of doing things is? How quickly can you learn about innovations in your category? How quickly can you learn about all the influencers that are the most. That are. That have the loudest voices? It is about speed of knowledge acquisition. And so because like with again, AI AI AI is changing so quickly. The second thing you need to have is like a deep curiosity for the. The thing, the product, the category and the delivery method. E Com, online retail, whatever it is. And like do you really care and want to learn and ingest all of that information? I have this thing called the bathroom Test of and it is really simple. Is like if as I'm thinking about starting a new company or going into a new category, am I willing to watch a YouTube video about it while on the bathroom in the morning? Because that is like the epitome of like the. My time. Like my, my time, my brain space in those moments. And if I want to watch a video on like the new meta ads update or like what creative is or like the new research that's coming out on like the coolest latest nootropics or psychedelics, like if I want to use that time to learn about the thing, that's a really good sign that you, that you're moving in the right direction.

A (68:49)

Yeah, you're, you're, you're Curiosity barometer.

B (68:52)

Curiosity barometer. And I would also say that's also really important for anyone you're bringing onto your team.

A (68:58)

They must be just like ferociously curious and want to discover and lift up rocks constantly. About, about the, about the, the category.

B (69:06)

Yeah, it's. You can also. I, I also call it to give a. A meter. It's like how much does it give

A (69:12)

a the Give a meter? I like that one.

B (69:19)

The

A (69:21)

final piece. I think that I just wanted to, you know, this podcast, I love doing this podcast and it, it, it, this podcast is kind of like it's evolved now where I'm just getting like people that I'm just like really interested in picking their brains. Because if I'm interested in Picking their brains. I would imagine way more people are interested in picking their brains. It's far less today about understanding the habits, rituals and routines of what these people do. Although I'm still interested in that. I definitely am. I, I've, I've found that I have not like, really like made that the number one priority, whereas for the first couple years of the podcast, it was the number one priority. I wanted to know what your morning routine was. I wanted to know what your eating evening routine was. I wanted to know a few day to day habits that you did to stay on the beam. And so I just, I do want to finish with, with one question that I think plays a little bit more into our traditional way of podcasting. So I look at Adam Greenfield as like, I've always thought of you as this like, just fit, strong guy. You're a strong dude. You're a strong dude, personality wise, energetically, but also physically. You're just like a physically strong human. Thank you. When you walk into a room, you're like, that dude is probably very, very strong.

B (70:46)

Oh, thank you.

A (70:47)

And, and, and so I'd just be curious to, to, to know like, how, how and last your fitness has been through this process of like being an entrepreneur, building, failing, scary, happy, like how you lean into your fitness and how you think about your fitness. And then lastly, like, just quickly walk us through your apps, like what you did this morning. Yep.

B (71:15)

It is directly tied to my mental health. When I'm not training and I'm not, or I'm not training at an intensity that is like making me uncomfortable, my mental breaks down. When my mental breaks down, my decision making breaks down, my composure breaks down, my capacity, my creativity breaks down and the companies end up suffering. There's a rule at my company fridge now, if I'm being an asshole, either send me to the gym or send me surfing. And my assistants have, they're like, if they notice in my voice, like I'm being snippy or I'm not using the level of rigor to make decisions that I normally am, they're allowed to clear an afternoon in my calendar and send me to surf or the gym because I know unequivocally, the next day I will come back and that level of presence and creativity will be back. So important, most important, I think about it every day. What I did this morning, woke up, drank a cup of water with element electrolytes in it. I took my vitamins, I made a black cup of coffee and I wrote in my journal for an hour that's

A (72:32)

a full hour on the journal.

B (72:33)

Sometimes I can go more than an hour. That is the number one thing that I do. It is non negotiable. Seven days a week outside of praying. And it's been that way for five years.

A (72:48)

Wow. Yeah, That's a lot of journal time.

B (72:50)

It's a lot of journal time. And it is.

A (72:52)

Are you writing the whole time? Are you thinking?

B (72:54)

I'm writing the whole time. And it is just a flow of consciousness. I never reread anything. I never use punctuation. I burn all the journals afterward.

A (73:03)

You burn them?

B (73:04)

I burn them all because I've realized that it is, it is the great. My journal is the greatest therapist. It is the only entity on this earth that I am 100 honest with, 100 transparent with.

A (73:20)

How many times have you caught yourself trying to lie to your journal? All the time.

B (73:26)

So many times. I have like specific examples of it.

A (73:30)

Isn't that funny when you're like, I am legitimately lying to my journal right now.

B (73:34)

And you know what stopped that? When I decided that I will never reread them. And I never reread a word. Because what I realized. So the scenario was, and I'll make it quick. I was in love. I was in love with a girl who didn't love me back. And I was writing about how I was feeling in my journal. And I used her initials, not her name. I was like, oh, that's, that's, that's got some substance. That's got some like, thing to it. Like, why is that? What I realized is I wasn't worried about her one day coming into my apartment and reading my journals. I wasn't worried about my. Someone else reading my journals. I was worried about the older version of me reading my journals and then shaming me for being a little. And so I said, okay, like if I, if I promise to never reread a word, I can just say whatever the I want. And then I burn them. And, and it's, it is the most cleansing light. It also allows me to have really tough conversations, whether in a business or in a romantic situation before. And so like the words that I use are, are more concise, more direct. I can say them with more compassion and more understanding because I've been able to work them out in my journal that morning before I do them.

A (74:53)

Is it, is it just. It's just a book with pages or

B (74:57)

a book of pages?

A (74:58)

Book of pages. So no prompts, no nothing like that? Like you're not using anything to prompt thought. You're Just like, you're like, honestly, like right now I'm sitting at the table, the sun's coming through the window. I just had a glass of water. I know that, that I have a couple of things on my schedule today. Let me talk about what's going on my schedule today. I've got a meeting at 9 o'. Clock. Let me think about what I'm going to do in that meeting. Is there anything important that I have to say in that meeting? Should I be taking notes for that meeting? Like, is that totally.

B (75:21)

And then, and then it'll be like, what does God want me to know right now?

A (75:26)

And then I gotta get back to journaling, man. I totally, I totally stopped journaling. Just completely stop journaling.

B (75:32)

Yeah. And, and then I have a lot like, listen, I, I have it, I have a deep dialogue with the Creator. And so those journals, by page two, two and by page two, two and a half. It's just like me talking to Source. And it's just like, why am I here? What do you need from me today? Why do I feel this pain in my stomach?

A (75:51)

Do you think if you were to have one of your journals sitting here with us, do you think that we would be rereading a lot of the same conversations? 100, a lot, like every day? It's like almost the same conversation once you get to a certain point.

B (76:07)

I think there's seasons of my life where there was a lot of repeat and there's seasons of my life where there's a lot of newness. I think that, you know, I, I, I explore all the crevices of my brain. Like, hey, I was in this social situation, this feeling came up, felt it in my left arm. Why was it my left arm? What is my, what does the left side mean versus the right side? Am I taking too much instead of giving more? And I'll allow myself to like go into these, like philosophical, like mean, like making meaning. Because, because fundamentally I believe, you know, everything in my life is sent to me by a higher divine consciousness.

A (76:52)

I.

B (76:54)

The greatest gift that I can give back is to assess and to ask why it's happening and to try to learn lessons, constantly learning lessons from it. And the journal just allows me that space. An hour. So.

A (77:05)

And is that where you finish your

B (77:07)

morning with the journaling from the journal and go to the gym? So I went to Gold's this morning, came back, ate, prayed, showered, had my first call about nine.

A (77:20)

Adam, man, I'm like, I'm so happy to call you friend. Like, I really am, dude. I'm so happy to call you friend. And it's like I'm sitting here across from you, and I'm like, damn, man. If I lived in la, like, we would. Would be hanging out all the time. We would. Like, I feel, I feel a genuine connection to you, dude. Like, I do, man. I do. You have this energy that I, that is so infectious that I love. And every time I see you, like, it's like we, like, we've been hanging out for, like, and, and, and it could be a year, but I'm like, like, I just feel that with you, like, there's so few people that I feel like I can actually let. I know that this sounds a little like, limited thinking, but, like, it's just a fact for me, like, there are not a lot of men that I feel comfortable like, being. Like, I could let this person truly in. Like, actually, like, you know, I have this thing where I, it's not, it's not intentional for me, but, like, there's just a. When I see somebody that I feel like I can actually, like, be, Be, like, really good friends with. You just fit into that group, dude. You do for me. And it sucks that I don't live here because I really would want to do that. And maybe we will one day, right? Like, but I, I, I feel that, dude. Serious. And I felt, and I, and I felt that for a long time. You're just, you just have this. And I've said, you know, you just have this thing that I think people. That's why people love you, because you just have this thing, you know, and so I appreciate you coming on the show. It's a really fun convo.

B (78:46)

I'm glad we recorded that because I'm. That's, that's gonna. I mean, I look up to you a lot for many years, decades. So thank you, dude. Thank you.

A (79:04)

This convo was a bit of a spattering, a splattering of. Of topics. But if you are CPG entrepreneur, I'm sure that you would have really felt the value here in a technical way. But I just think this topic is very interesting, even for a consumer, to listen to a conversation about two CPG entrepreneurs and founders talking about what, what we. How we think, the things that we have to think about on a regular basis, whether our brains, like, intuitively go that direction or not. We are forced to certainly have to, you know, till the soil in all of these areas. And you guys are either involved in that as, As a, as, as, as someone that works within that, that world, or, you're on the other side of it where you are a consumer. And so it's just, I. I really wanted to have Adam on here. I love. I love this guy a lot. Obviously. I. I love this. This dude a lot. And, you know, I think it is important to. To have people in your life that en. Inspire you, but also, you know, hydrate your soul. Like, that term just came to my mind. I was like, how do I. How am I feeling right now? Like, how am I feeling right now in this moment? And, like, literally, I just felt like having Adam here on the show, like, genuinely just like. Like, I think I just, like, got my. Like, I'm a plant that just got watered. Like, he just hydrated my. The cells in my body and, and my soul. And I think it's great to have people like that around you. So if you get an opportunity to invite somebody to a cup of coffee or to a dinner party or to, you know, you know, walk around the neighborhood like that, someone that is going to, you know, hydrate your soul. Feels good. It feels good. Share this podcast with a friend, family member, mother, father, sister, uncle, brother, cousin, enemy. Hey, bury the hatchet on this one. And, you know, that's all I ask you to do. If you are inspired or you're feeling super generous and you want to take the minute and a half that would be required to write a review, a good one, and a five star rating, that really helps the show grow. I love doing the podcast. I'm going to do it whether or not you review it. But the reviews do help us grow the podcast. So I would mean a lot to me if you did do that. And other than that, friends and family, I appreciate you. I love you. Thank you so much for watching this episode, for subscribing to the Creatures of Habit podcast, and you know the deal until the next one, y'. All, Peace.