← Kreatures Of Habit Podcast 
Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
Whole30, Food Sensitivities, and Self-Experiments with Melissa Urban |Kreatures of Habit
01:11:06
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- [00:00]
A
Just quickly walk through the whole 30, because I just want everybody to know who potentially doesn't know.
- [00:04]
B
There are probably things in your diet, maybe even stuff you would consider healthy, that doesn't work well in your body doesn't mean that those foods are bad. It doesn't mean that there aren't benefits and there is no kind of one size fits all. But through the whole 30, you'll eliminate foods that are commonly problematic for 30 straight days and see what happens. What happens in the absence of these potentially problematic foods to your energy, your sleep, your digestion, your cravings, your mood and focus. Joint pain and swelling, migraines, hot flashes, eczema, all of those things can be impacted by food. At the end of the 30 days, you'll then reintroduce those food groups one at a time, very carefully and systematically, and compare your experience so it gives you a blueprint for the foods that work well in your unique body and the ones that don't. All of these little self experiments that I've done have helped me kind of hone in on what is and isn't working, and then it allows me to be really flexible with my everyday diet. So I think if there's one thing I would encourage everybody to take from the whole 30 and from kind of my own self experiments. If something doesn't work for you, trust that it doesn't work for you and just move on. It doesn't matter if it works well for 99% of other people. If it doesn't work for you, trust that and honor that and move on to something that does.
- [01:17]
A
An entrepreneur straight out of New York City. Michael Chernow. What's cracking? We're jumping right in here, but Melissa and I were talking about how long I've taken to get the Creatures of habit protein bar, which is called the Daily Bar, off the ground. And it's been over two years. And you said, you know, kudos to you for not like just launching something because you felt like you needed to launch it. And honestly, I think that's how I've been kind of running the company. You know, where there's a part of me, I look to my left and I look to my right, and I see founders with brands in the world of consumer that are doing like 50 million, 100 million, and I'm like, I gotta get there faster. But then there's another piece of me that's like, you know what, man? Like, just slow, Slow it down. Yeah, you know, slow it down. Like with the bar literally has taken me two years from when I started R and D to like, where we are right now.
- [02:25]
B
Yeah, you know, I remember.
- [02:27]
A
And Melissa's been there the whole time, so. Melissa Urban is the co founder and CEO of the Whole30, which, if you haven't heard of, you're hiding under a rock. The whole 30 is a movement in just the world of nutrition. You've built such an incredible community and, and business and brand, and you've been a supporter of Creatures of habit since legitimately, like, week two.
- [02:51]
B
Yeah. Before it was even on the market.
- [02:53]
A
Before it was on the market. So thank you for that. Yeah, thank you.
- [02:56]
B
My pleasure.
- [02:57]
A
I am just grateful for our friendship. And I call you randomly and you're like, every time I do, you're like, do you like, you're like the only person that just kind of randomly calls.
- [03:11]
B
Me and I'm like, are you cold? Call like a psycho, but I pick up for you every time.
- [03:15]
A
And I'm. And again, like, and it's typically like me leaving the office after like a nine hour workday, being like, you know, I just need to get Melissa's opinion on this. And I'm in the car and the reception sucks and I'm like, I just got to get to that one spot where I can call her, get her three minute advice, and then boom, hang up the phone. I'm just grateful for that. Yeah, I'm grateful for that. And I'm grateful that we're in Utah and you're here and on the podcast.
- [03:43]
B
I know.
- [03:44]
A
For the second time.
- [03:44]
B
It's always good to see you.
- [03:46]
A
Tell us, just quickly walk through the whole 30, because I just want everybody to know who potentially doesn't know.
- [03:51]
B
Sure. The Whole30 has been around since 2009. And the easiest way to describe it is an elimination and reintroduction program. So it's not a weight loss diet. It's not a detox, it's not a cleanse. It's a way to identify hidden food sensitivities. There's also a lot of habit and behavior change research. So we talk about kind of pushing the reset button with your health habits and relationship with food. There are probably things in your diet, maybe even stuff you would consider healthy, that doesn't work well in your body. Doesn't mean that those foods are bad. It doesn't mean that there aren't benefits and there is no kind of one size fits all. But through the whole 30, you'll eliminate foods that are commonly problematic for 30 straight days and see what happens. What happens in the absence of these potentially Problematic foods to your energy, your sleep, your digestion, your cravings, your mood and focus, joint pain and swelling, migraines, hot flashes, eczema, all of those things can be impacted by food. At the end of the 30 days, you'll then reintroduce those food groups one at a time, very carefully and systematically, and compare your experience. So it gives you a blueprint for the foods that work well in your unique body and the ones that don't, so that you can then make an informed decision about what and how often and when to include those foods in your diet in a way that feels joyful and sustainable and broad, but always keeps you feeling as good as you want to feel.
- [05:12]
A
So if you were to. I know January is like a big time for whole 30, right. It's like January and September. Are those the two months?
- [05:18]
B
Those are the two biggest.
- [05:19]
A
Yeah, but you can do a whole. You can do a whole 30 whenever you want. Yeah, right. Like, absolutely.
- [05:24]
B
People are starting literally every single day of the year, and we have tons of resources to help you no matter when you start.
- [05:29]
A
So January, a big one coming up, obviously, for the new year. People are, like, really trying to just, like, rein it in and figure out how to either get in the. In better shape, dial in their nutrition, or in some cases, like, the whole 30, like, really uncover potential things that could be just, like, bothering your gut. Microbiome.
- [05:46]
B
Yeah.
- [05:47]
A
For me, I've got a terrible gut, and I think it's. It's in part due because of my Lyme disease. And Lyme disease really impacts, like, it doesn't matter what I'm eating. If I'm in a lime flare like I am right now, like, you'll notice, like, you see that finger and this finger, how big those knuckles are swollen sw. Like, it attacks my knuckles first, you know, and then my gut. And so I've done whole 30, and it's just really interesting to be able to see if you do it, if you do it right. And I think you have, like, an amazing resource of tools for people to activate without really even having to know a lot about nutrition. Right. Like, anybody that wants to try it can do it. They just go onto the site, walk you through, step by step. Yep. But. But, like, there are foods that, like you said, wouldn't be considered unhealthy. And what I learned through my whole 30 experience, I think it was maybe two years ago, was that garlic and onions. Can't do them.
- [06:49]
B
Yeah.
- [06:49]
A
Can't do them.
- [06:50]
B
Yep.
- [06:50]
A
I think I told you. I think I told you.
- [06:52]
B
Those are problematic for a lot of people because of the fodmap count. They're high fodmap. And so that those are sort of fermentable carbohydrates that can lead to digestive distress if you overconsume them and. Or if you're sensitive. Now, nobody would look at garlic and say, well, you shouldn't eat that. There are tons of health benefits to garlic, but if it doesn't work for you in your unique body, then it's helpful for you to either not eat that food or to eat it in moderation so that you don't get those symptoms.
- [07:15]
A
What are some food sensitivities that you have, like, uncovered about yourself?
- [07:20]
B
You know, I've been doing the whole 30 since literally 2009, and I haven't done one in a while. But over time, what my body does well with has really evolved, and I think that's very normal. As you're eating practices change, as your stress levels change, your sleep, your age, your, you know, overall health, all of those kind of impact the way foods intersect with your body. But gluten was a big one for me. I used to tolerate gluten far worse than I do today. In the earlier days of Whole 30, when I reintroduced gluten, I would get tremendous bloating, really uncomfortable bloating, and like clockwork, my skin would break out. I never got breakouts unless or until I had gluten. And then it was like two days later, like a Swiss train. And over time, I have found maybe it's because of my age and hormonal changes with menopause, for whatever reason, gluten doesn't impact me negatively in that way anymore, or at least not if I eat, you know, a moderate amount. Goat cheese has always been historically a problem for me. That was like the one thing that would give me just that alien in the belly feeling where other cheeses didn't. There was a while where hummus didn't work for me. Well, there was a while where oats didn't work. There were years where oats didn't work well in my system. And it wasn't until another whole 30 a few years ago where I reintroduced them again. And it was probably my activity levels that had changed. But all of a sudden my body was like, oh, I like these. These work great. I had more energy, I had more stamina. My focus was great. My blood sugar regulation was fantastic. So all of these little self experiments that I've done have helped me kind of hone in on what is and isn't working. And then it allows me to be really flexible with my everyday diet.
- [08:57]
A
You know, it's so interesting that you said activity level. And I was having a conversation with nutritionist for a professional sports team, and he told me that the vast majority of professional athletes, or just people that train like professional athletes, struggle with gut microbiome issues. And he mentioned that like high output performance, physical really can disrupt digestion.
- [09:33]
B
Sure.
- [09:33]
A
And I just had never put those two things together. Have you like, understood that over time in. In this space?
- [09:41]
B
I don't think I train that hard. I like to be really active and I, I do a lot, I stay active, but I don't think I train that hard. What I have noticed though, and, and I do believe that that's true. Right. If you're adding a lot of stress and then you're unable to completely recover from that stress, that's gonna impact a lot of body systems. And also, sometimes when you're training at that level, I have a really good friend who's an endurance runner, and she just. It's like gummy nerd, gummy clusters and candy and Skittles. And at that amount of output, you just have to get calories in. And often that's not the best thing for your gut health. So there is kind of this give and take. If you're training at that level, that's a performance goal, that's not a health goal. Right. Those are two kind of different things. What I've noticed with my own training is that the more I ramped up my trail running, my hiking, the more carbohydrates I needed to take in. And I know there's a big contingency of people who say you don't need carbs for performance. And there are certainly people who perform well on a lower carb approach. That is not me. I need lots of carbs, and my body does really well with lots of carbohydrates. I am not at all carb sensitive. My blood sugar regulation is excellent even when I eat two packages of oatmeal in one sitting. And so for me, that's been a really big lesson too is despite what the trends are, keto is a trend, or low carb is a trend, or you can't eat oatmeal because it'll spike your glucose. Like, no, there's so much bio individuality and you have to figure out what works for you, which is the whole purpose of the whole 30, really.
- [11:06]
A
I, you know, I, the. The idea that one protocol is going to work for everyone is kind of crazy to think, right? And I was working with a coach. I was dealing with a lot of gut stuff, doing a lot of gut stuff, sent out all sorts of stool tests and came back with, like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm dealing with H. Pylori and, you know, Candida and parasites. And, like, I was just like, holy smokes. And this is, like, a year ago. And so I found this coach that I was starting to work with, and, you know, God bless him, like, best of intentions to help me, but put me on a keto carnivore protocol for, like, four months. And I have a history of heart disease in my family, and I am so cognizant of that heart disease thing that I'm very mindful about eating too much fat. Right. Like, I just choose leaner cuts of meat. I don't stay away from red meat, but I choose bison or venison or, like, a lean 93 ground beef, just because I just know that that's, like, in my history.
- [12:21]
B
Yeah.
- [12:22]
A
My father died young of heart attack. And. And regardless of that, he said, no, this is, like, what we're gonna do. And I was like, okay. And my cholesterol went, like, when I'm telling you, like, the number. My labs prior to doing this were my. I think my total cholesterol number was like a 170. And all of my. All my numbers were, like, dialed. Checked in, because I just know that I don't eat food that's going to ultimately spike my. My, you know, hdl, ldl, total cholesterol, any of it. And he. We. We did labs after it. My. My cholesterol number was 287. And what all that's to say, like, thank gosh. Like, I. I obviously immediately stopped that. Like, flipped out on the dude. Sorry. But I was like, hey, man. Like, I. One size fits all does not work, especially with history. Right. So I think, like, what you're doing is you're basically saying, hey, like, let's figure out what is the right thing for you. Yeah. Because the one size fits all doesn't always work. I will say that, like, I believe out of all the different protocols, I really do enjoy the Paleo lifestyle. Widows. Yeah, Paleo widows. Because I feel like it's just. It's. It's. It's. It's pretty versatile. And all I was saying is, like, really don't eat highly processed foods and white flowers and stuff like that, but almost anything else is kind of, like, on the table. Whole foods Right. I want to talk to you about your routines. What are, what are you a routine person?
- [14:05]
B
Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. Ask my husband. Yes.
- [14:09]
A
What is that? What is, what does a morning routine look like for you?
- [14:11]
B
I mean, my morning routine has been on lock for 25 years. Basically 20 plus years. Actually more than that. It was basically right when I got out of rehab for the second time for my drug addiction that my morning routine was formed. But. And it's basically stayed the same and I maintain it at all costs, whether I'm traveling or on vacation or home. It just bookends my day in a way that gives me mental clarity and makes me feel grounded. I wake up sometimes I take a cold shower. We're entering into cold shower season again because the water here in Utah is getting cold enough. But I love a good cold shower just for my mood, for my concussion symptoms, for my energy. So I'll get up, I'll do a cold shower right away. And then there's always some kind of movement.
- [14:52]
A
Do you start with it hot or do you go right into the cold?
- [14:55]
B
No, I go. I start with it lukewarm. So I'll get in where it's like not freezing cold. And then it just goes all the way cold. That's my jam. I love it. I'm in it. And then I always do some kind of movement. So some, you know, my husband and I take turns with taking the kid to school and walking the dogs. Sometimes it's just a dog walk, sometimes it's a gym session or a run or a trail run or a hike. But there's always some kind of movement first thing in the morning. That's mandatory for me and my mental health. Sometimes I will do a little post workout meditation. If I'm in the gym, I'll just kind of sit and run through this series of reflections to sort of ground me for the day. Get home, make my breakfast and start my day.
- [15:34]
A
I want to. I remember maybe a year and a half ago, maybe a little longer, I remember you sharing about just starting to run and you were like. And I loved it because you were like, you know what? I'm a hiker. I've been walking my. For years and years, hiking for years and years. And I want to try this running thing. And you basically started running and you were like, yeah. And I'm. And I'm going to share with you guys that like I'm running 12 minute miles right now. Like that's what I'm doing. And I'm. But I'm running And that's what I'm doing.
- [16:04]
B
Yeah.
- [16:05]
A
And I just want to hear like a. Now you talk about trail running like it's. Now it seems like it's a part of your life similarly to what hiking was has. And we all know in the world of fitness like running has taken off, right? Like running's on, like running in creatine or like neck and neck on what's like talked about more today. But what, what has now introduced like becoming like a runner? What is that? How has that changed your kind of your, your day to day with fitness?
- [16:36]
B
I don't, you know. Okay, so I used to run, I ran and did like shorter triathlons and stuff early in my fitness days. And I had a group of girls that I would run with and we would do like 10 minute miles. That was our jam, right? 10 minute miles. I have done half marathons and. But I hadn't run in 20 years and I wanted to get started again. And every time I would try to run, I would burn out. I couldn't even run a mile and I'm not unfit. And I was so frustrated with why can't I do this? And then I don't know if I was talking to someone or saw it on social media, but I just was like, well maybe you should just run slower. Run as slow as you want, as slow as you need to. And I did. And I went three miles and I was like, this is amazing.
- [17:17]
A
Did you try to hop right into the 10 mile?
- [17:19]
B
Of course I did.
- [17:19]
A
10 minute mile.
- [17:20]
B
Of course I did. Yeah. Because I could do that when I was in my 20s. It doesn't matter that I'm not in my 20s anymore, but I, I think I tried to, you know, pick up where I left off. And also I had in my head, which I think is a prevalent misconception and hurts a lot of people that, you know, if it's not a 10 minute mile, you're not really running, which I'm calling total BS on. So I started running more. And my goal, which is still my goal is I don't ever care if I run faster. I don't care if I run faster. I wanna run longer. I wanna run for an hour, I wanna run for an hour and a half, I wanna run for two and a half hours. And so whatever pace I need to go to be able to be out there on the trail enjoying the sunshine and hanging out with my dogs and looking at the views, that's what I'm gonna do. And so yeah, sometimes I run a 10 minute mile. But mostly it's 11 or 12 or 12 and a half or if I'm on a trail and there's an uphill, it's like a 13 and a half. I don't care. But I love being out there and it's now become my summertime activity. I'm trail running and I'm hiking all summer long, so.
- [18:20]
A
And how do you decide whether you want to hike or trail run?
- [18:24]
B
That's a really good question. It's intuitive. I tend to trail run more on the weekdays where I don't have as much time because I can't run for five hours. But I can easily hike for five hours. Right. I, you know, it's a long, it's a 10 mile hike and I spend an hour and a half at the top with my book. So I tend to save the bigger things for the weekends or even my like longer runs for the weekends. But then during the week I tend to do more trail running and I'll take the dogs with me and they'll go out and do four or five, six miles.
- [18:51]
A
And do you, have you felt your nutrition change since you've introduced running?
- [18:55]
B
Yes, because when I started to run again I also was not eating like anything. I wasn't eating anything before I went out and I would run for an hour and a half and also not eat anything. And I was talking to a friend of mine and she's like, well, what's your fueling like? And I was like oh, I haven't really thought about that. And she's like, you like dummy, you know what you're doing out here? How are you not. So then I started eating before I went out and I started fueling, you know, after the first hour I would take in 50 grams of carbs and after the next hour and of course my, I felt much better and I was able to run longer. But it's been a trial and error.
- [19:26]
A
Do you intermittent fast?
- [19:28]
B
No, I don't. It doesn't work well for me. I find I can in that if I have to go a long time without eating because I'm traveling or something happens, I'm fine, my energy is fine, my mood is fine, my focus is fine. But I've gone kind of back and forth with fasting and for me it's just too stressful on my body.
- [19:48]
A
I was sitting, leaving, getting ready to leave to come here and it just dawned on me. I wish intermittent fasting was never introduced. I had this thought and I never really have had this thought in the sort of Profound way that I had it just a few days ago, I wanted to ask you about it because I really thought about it a lot on the flight. I think too much about intermittent fasting. And not that I do it all the time, but if I don't do it, I'm like, should I do it if I'm not? And if I do do it, I like, it's almost like a weird battle that I have and I think it probably plays into some relationship with food I have in general. Right. Like obviously we all have our relationships with food and I certainly have had like weird relationships with food over the years. When I first got sober, full blown eating disorder.
- [20:45]
B
Yeah.
- [20:45]
A
Both are anorexic and bulimic. When I first got sober, I had no idea. Like I was just like eating as much as I can, puking, you know, it's terrible. Thank gosh I was able to shake that. But you know, and not enough men talk about that. There's a lot of men that struggle with that. But I will say the, the intermittent fasting, I think has truly been more than any diet protocol or like food movement. I really do think intermittent fasting has made the most impact on the, on the world of wellness for people that think about food and fitness. Because like most people in this space either do intermittent fast or don't intermittent fast specifically. I do or I don't. Sure, right. But have, have, have done it at some point or another, doesn't matter what, vegan, meat eater, whatever. Right. And I just think that I don't, I just like, there's a part of me that, that just like felt like, why does this exist? Like, why can't I just like easily eat breakfast, lunch and dinner at the times that people have been eating breakfast, lunch and dinner forever?
- [22:08]
B
Yeah.
- [22:08]
A
You know, like, why do I have to, like, why would I, why would I think about, like if I'm hungry at 8 o' clock in the morning, you know, I wake up early, I work out. Like, I do like to work out on an empty stomach typically. But like, why would I not just eat a meal and like not think about it? Like, what is your take on that?
- [22:28]
B
I have so many thoughts on this. You know, intermittent fasting began of course, as a medical protocol. Right. It was touted as a very helpful protocol, particularly for people with epilepsy, people having seizures, and then further with medical doctors for people with metabolic syndrome and obesity. It was sort of a protocol designed medically, but as with most medical related protocols, it then gets extrapolated out into the Mainstream as this is a good weight loss tool. So it's sort of morphed over the years into like anything that is effective in this sense. People want to know if they can also do it to lose weight. And what I see with intermittent fasting is people aren't necessarily purposefully fasting. They're just not eating right. And the reason it's helpful as a weight loss protocol is because they're not eating enough. They're not eating enough to maintain their basic level of activity, which is incredibly stressful on the body. Now, I do think that it has benefit in that, as I just mentioned, if I can't eat, if I wake up and I can't have breakfast, my kids got something going on, or I'm running late for the plan plane or the plane is delayed, I want to be fat adapted enough that my energy doesn't tank, my focus stays, my mood stays. I can go hours without eating. And it's probably not a bad idea occasionally to practice that, whether it happens purposefully or accidentally. But I also think that people are already so out of touch with their body's natural hunger and fullness signals because of weight loss diet culture, because of, especially women who have been conditioned their entire lives to say, I'm hungry. And weight loss diet culture says, no, you're not. You just have a glass of water, distract yourself. You're not really that hungry. So we're already out of touch with these signals. We are already, because of stress and lifestyle factors and dietary factors, probably shifting our eating window where we are waking up, we're slamming coffee right away because that's an appetite suppressant. We're not eating breakfast until later, whether we're fasting or just not hungry until 10 or 11am Then after dinner, we're ravenous. And whether it's for emotional reasons, whether you're anxious or lonely or bored, or whether it's just your eating window has been shifted such that you now are hungry at 9pm or 10pm when you should be winding down, and then you go into the pantry and eat, and that just continues to perpetuate that cycle. So I see people saying, I'm intermittent fasting. And it's like, are you getting all your calories into that feeding window? Are you actually fasting? Or is your kind of. Are your satiety signals and your hunger signals just so disconnected that you're just not hungry until 11am which biologically maybe isn't normal for you or isn't like historically normal? So I think there are a lot of Factors with intermittent fasting. And I know that there have been studies that say it's far more stressful for women for a variety of factors. A lot of the studies done have been done on men. If you want to play with it, I think play with it. I think it's a good idea to only take on one dietary experiment at a time. So if you want to fast and you're in a place right now where you feel like your diet is working for you really well, go ahead and throw that one experimental factor in. Do it, do it right. Do it for a consistent period of time. Make sure you're getting all your calories in, make sure your eating window is still kind of appropriate for your lifestyle and your goals, and then see, do you perform better? Do you perform worse? Do you feel better? Do you feel worse? I find with under eating specifically, it's kind of like a credit card. You can get away with charging for a while and then it feels like one day the bill comes due. And that's what happens when people tend to chronically under eat. You feel fine, your energy's fine, your performance is fine, and then all of a sudden one day it catches up with you. So keep those in mind. I think those factors if you want to try fasting. But I certainly don't think there's ever anything wrong with saying, I'm hungry, so I'm going to eat.
- [26:21]
A
I just, I appreciate that. I, I, because I, you know, I just, it, it, it's rare that like I will have one thing that really does like infiltrate and for whatever reason for me, intermittent fasting, since I, since it was basically launched, I don't know, it's got to be like when it really, I guess 15 years ago maybe when people really started talking about intermittent fasting. Now I, I was competing in martial arts. So for me, in order to make a certain weight, the protocol was not a single thing after 6pm you cannot eat anything after 6pm was the hardest thing ever. Like, truly it sucked and I hated it. And, but I just think that like, it's just a it. I really do believe that it's just another thing that can throw people like just add unnecessary stress to the mix. You know, it can.
- [27:26]
B
And I think what happens is if you start to hear enough media and wellness influencers and authors who knows, talking about intermittent fasting as the fix, the end all, be all, everyone should be doing this. It benefits everyone. And then you try it and then it doesn't work well for you. Your first thought isn't, well, that doesn't work well for me. I'm going to go back to what I was doing. Your first thought probably is I must not be doing it right because everyone around me is saying this is the thing, this is the best thing. You could say the same thing about a carnivore diet or a low carb diet or a vegan diet or a gluten free diet, whatever the kind of trend is in the moment where everyone should be eating this way because we've been conditioned again to believe that we can't trust our body's own signals. And we need to look to some outside expert to tell us what and how and when to eat. And so if you feel like you're not fasting well or the right way, what are you gonna do? You're gonna fast for longer, you're gonna eat less, you're gonna do it more often. And now it's not intermittent fasting. You're literally not eating every single day for, you know, 12 hours of your waking time. And that sends people down, of course, a spiral of making them less and less healthy and feel less and less good. So I think if there's one thing I would encourage everybody to take from the whole 30 and from kind of my own self experiments and if something doesn't work for you, trust that it doesn't work for you and just move on. It doesn't matter if it works well for 99% of other people. If it doesn't work for you, trust that and honor that and move on to something that does.
- [28:57]
A
Can you walk us through just like a day of eating? I would just love to hear what a day of eating looks like for you.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah, I can. I'm always careful about this because I don't want obviously I'm eating for me. I'm eating for my activity levels, I'm eating for my body. So I tend to speak in generalities. I don't give portion sizes, I don't weigh or measure or count calories or anything. But I wake up and I have breakfast. And my breakfast is typically, I'll do a meal one very often because that's my kind of go to super easy hits. All the right, you know, fiber and protein and everything all at once. If I'm not doing that, I'm usually making some sort of like ground meat with veggies. I've figured out that that works way better for my body than eggs or typical breakfast food. I need something really hearty. Breakfast tends to be one of my biggest meals of the day. So I'll do that and then a couple hours later when I'm hungry I'll have lunch and lunch is usually dinner leftovers from the night before or a made by Whole30 Meal or like what.
- [29:53]
A
Foods work really well with you for lunch?
- [29:56]
B
I mean right now I've got shredded chicken, buffalo shredded chicken in my fridge. I've got a white chicken chili in the fridge and I also have a hearty chicken soup. So I guess I would say chicken. I do a lot of chicken, I do a lot of lean ground beef, I do a lot of salmon, I do a lot of shrimp. I'm not much of a steak person, I'm not much of a pork person. I just don't. Red meat can sometimes be tough for me and I do some like I love tofu. I do some plant based meat mixtures like Abbott, they do a plant based chorizo that I really like so I'll throw that in sometimes as well. I usually have not usually. I almost always have a mini meal around 3:30 or so in between lunch and when I'm making dinner or when we're eating dinner. And that's usually two or three meat sticks and maybe some dried mango, maybe it's a Greek yogurt, pistachios. There's sort of something happening in there but there's always a meat stick or two going on. And then for dinner I'm making something that's usually Whole30ish. So I eat mostly Whole30, you know, meat, seafood, eggs, vegetables, fats. But I also eat white rice almost every single day. Black beans work really well. Again I run great on a lot of carbs so those are kind of in my daily repertoire.
- [31:09]
A
And will you, will you. Does it matter what time of day you're having your carbs for you or do you like just have them whenever you're kind of feeling it?
- [31:16]
B
I just have em with every meal. But I will say this, I stop eating by about 6:30pm and it's and I don't eat after that and it's because a I'm not particularly hungry. I think I've sort of trained the like prowling through the pantry out of me. But also my sleep. Sleep is so much better both objectively and subjectively. Like my whoop is telling me that late meals is one of the worst things I can do for my sleep. So around 6:30, maybe 7 is when I just kind of wrap it up for the night.
- [31:45]
A
And what time do you go to bed typically?
- [31:47]
B
I mean we start getting ready for bed at like 8:30.
- [31:50]
A
Okay, so that's a good segue into a wind down.
- [31:52]
B
I want to hear. You know, I know, I know we, but I get up early. I'm a very, I'm a morning person. I'm with you 5:30 or six with no alarm every morning.
- [31:58]
A
You're preaching to the choir, girl.
- [32:00]
B
Yes, but, so I talked about my morning routine and then I also have a nighttime routine. And I'm very structured and very regimented. But I found if I can bookend the front and end of my day with routines, then it can all go to like hell in a hand basket in the middle. And I can be okay as long as I know I've got that structure at the beginning and the end. So I start, we start winding down for bed basically with my kid who's 12, which is 8:30 ish or quarter of nine. I do my skincare routine. I've got an extensive dental routine that, that I really enjoy. I have an audiobook on this entire time. So I'm really enjoying my nighttime thing. So I do my skincare, I do my teeth, I put my hair up in those stupid little bathrobe braids that makes it curly. And then I get into bed and I read a book. I read a book, fiction every single night before I go to bed. Fiction, always, almost always, because sometimes nonfiction gets me thinking too much. So I usually do fiction. But I read every single night before I go to bed. That is a non negotiable no matter what, no matter where. I read voraciously and sort of that's my, my nighttime thing.
- [33:07]
A
Okay, so you know, I'm going to ask because I think it's important that we hear it. I want to hear the steps and procedures of your skin care and your dental care routine.
- [33:15]
B
My skincare routine is very, very basic because I don't have the patience for 17 different products. But I cleanse. I use a vitamin C kind of thing and I use a moisturizer and that's about it. It's like three or four steps. I might use a toner in there. Sometimes I do like a mask or a scrub. But it's very basic. My tooth care routine is that I floss manually and then I use my water pick. I don't think people understand how magical a water pick is for dental health. And then I brush, of course, for the mandatory two minutes because I'm a rule.
- [33:46]
A
So you, you floss and then you water pick and then you brush. Gosh, am I doing it wrong? I brush and then I Water pick. And I, I typically, I, I water pick every morning and I floss every night. I don't do both. So why do you do both? Wasp floss and water pick.
- [34:02]
B
I just don't do it in the morning. Cause I'm sort of ready. Like I just want to get going in the morning. So I just save them both for at night. And I do manual fast every single night. But the reason I brush last is because, and I'm not a dentist, but, but I think because my toothpaste has fluoride, I want to leave my fluoride, that fluoride on my teeth after I've brushed. I don't want to rinse it off with the water pick. That's.
- [34:25]
A
I, I found I've got a little hack that I think you're going to like.
- [34:28]
B
Go ahead.
- [34:29]
A
So I, I've been using this mouth rinse that I swish and I spit out. And then, and then I, and, and it's kind of like the last step where I don't rinse my mouth after that. And that's kind of like.
- [34:40]
B
Is that, is it therabreath? Is it that?
- [34:42]
A
No, it's not therapy. Oh, but thera breath. I have used. I have used.
- [34:47]
B
I like that stuff.
- [34:48]
A
I do like that stuff. But let me tell you what I do. So. And it's. And, and this was a hack that like the dentist talked. Talked to me about. And I just never thought about it because I love water picking. And the reason why I love water picking is because, you know, with a flosser you get in, you can wrap it around, but you don't get up in here. Right. And when you have a water pick on like full blast, it just gets, you know, like, it gets it all right. Like you can hit all like the things. Put a little rinse in your water pick.
- [35:19]
B
Ooh.
- [35:19]
A
Yes. I just. Yes. I was like, when it's actually the hygienist, she was like, you know, we were talking about water picks and she was like, oh, you've just got to take this rinse. I use this from this company twice. This company that I use, I use their toothbrush, their toothpaste, I use their, their charcoal activated toothpaste that I really like. And then they make this mouth rinse that I really like.
- [35:44]
B
Yeah.
- [35:45]
A
And she was like, take the twice rinse and put it in your water pick. And it's going to, you know, like so it. So you don't have to actually rinse. And that's why a water pick lasts.
- [35:55]
B
Yeah.
- [35:56]
A
But I like it. Yeah, it's. It's a very good little hack that I was like. So. I mean, it's such a nerdy thing.
- [36:03]
B
We're so nerdy right now.
- [36:04]
A
So nerdy.
- [36:05]
B
Because I also forgot to mention that I. Oil pole in the morning.
- [36:07]
A
Oh, I.
- [36:08]
B
With coconut oil.
- [36:09]
A
Okay.
- [36:10]
B
I do not believe scientifically it has been proven to do anything. And also, I love it. And it makes my teeth feel so clean. And I don't do it for 20 minutes. I just do it for maybe 60 seconds or so while I'm putting my contacts in and stuff. But, yeah, that's the other.
- [36:23]
A
I had one other guest on the Creatures have a podcast, talk about oil pulling. So I'm happy you brought that up.
- [36:29]
B
I mean, listen, it's a. It's an ayurvedic tradition going on for centuries. My dentist was like, I don't think. There have been a lot of studies on it. And I'm like, that's cool. I really like it. And every time I come in here, you tell me my teeth are perfect. So we're just going to keep it up.
- [36:42]
A
Well, the other thing that I. That I. That I also do, and I don't do it every day, and I should, but it is part of the protocol for me. And honestly, the only reason why I have taken my dental care, like, routine up a lot of notches is because I had a dentist on the show, this guy, Jonathan Levine, Dr. Jonathan Levine. And his whole. He's. He's like a. He's like a really sort of renowned oral care human. And he's been doing this for a long time in New York City, and he's got, like, 26 patents. The guy is like, really? But his whole mission is to converge wellness and oral care.
- [37:25]
B
Yeah.
- [37:25]
A
And, like, for some reason, it's always been a separate thing. Right. Like, your teeth and your, like, overall wellness have just. They've never been, like, you know, together. And so his. His mission is to say, hey, like, your mouth is the gateway to your gut microbiome, and your mouth has its own microbiome. So if you're. If you think for whatever reason that, like, your mouth is separated from your gut, you're wrong. That is the beginning of your gut right in your mouth. And so he was like, you need to scrape your tongue. Tongue scraping. And I. Full transparency. Before I had him on the show, I never scraped my tongue. Like, I just didn't do it. You know, I thought it was kind of like a. Whatever. I heard of it, but I never did now, do you scrape your tongue?
- [38:15]
B
I mean, not enough. Not as much as I should. Because my oil pole comes with a tongue scraper every time. And I'm 50. 50. Okay, I'm going to start.
- [38:23]
A
I'm just going to tell you when you scrape your tongue, the film of funkiness that comes off of your tongue.
- [38:31]
B
Yeah.
- [38:33]
A
I'm like, wait a second. Like, that is on my tongue all the time.
- [38:38]
B
I'm going to do it. I'm fine. Okay. You gross me out so much.
- [38:41]
A
I'm telling you. I'm telling you. So I have this, this tongue scraper that has two handles and you bring them together and you just go, wow, wow. And you look at what's on there, and it's not like some, like, saliva E thing.
- [38:53]
B
Yeah.
- [38:53]
A
It's like a yellow, globby film that just sits on your tongue. And it's bacteria.
- [39:03]
B
Yeah.
- [39:04]
A
And it's gnarly.
- [39:06]
B
So I'm going to start scraping my tongue. I'm going to send you a picture of my tongue scraper. Clean, not dirty. That's gross. Clean. But I will.
- [39:13]
A
Another thing that I. That I've started doing, which is I'm really excited about, you know, I'm not like a big biohacker. I love the sauna. I love the cold. I, you know, I now I find I have recently found out and I don't know how accurate, you know, the science on all this, like, changes all the time, right? Yeah, but like, red light therapy, right? There was a lot of great signs on it. And now apparently, like, it needs to be a certain bulb and it needs to be, like, right on your skin, whether it's on your arm or on. It needs to be, like, right there. Like you. If you're sitting with a red light panel here and I'm sitting here, you might as well, you know, like, light a fire, right? Like, it's not going to do anything, which kind of sucks because I've been doing red light forever and it's like I've been doing it that way. However, I have invested in a new biohacking piece of equipment that I am very excited about and I was motivated because of my lime and Lyme. You know, Lyme is just one of the. It's just a shitty autoimmune thing because it just really. It triggers. It triggers so many different things in the immune system. But ozone therapy has been studied to be a very, very impactful therapy for ozone cancer. All a lot of autoimmune, but it costs a lot of money. You know, you go into a clinic where they're going to put an IV in with ozone right into your blood. And sometimes, you know, I've done it and it cost me like 1500 bucks, $2,000. Like, it's a lot of money. And so I met some, like, total wackadoodoo. Like, I was introduced a friend to a friend to a friend of this, of this guy, 76 years old, he lives in the middle of nowhere in Texas, and he's an engineer. And he has been making these at home ozone therapy kits for 40 years.
- [41:05]
B
Really.
- [41:05]
A
And like has. I mean, according to him, he has reversed cancer many, many times. And so I think the difference between going to a clinic and getting ozone is like, you're going to do it, I don't know if you're really into it once a month, maybe once every quarter. Having an ozone kit at home gives you an opportunity to take ozone multiple times a day. Right. So it is just far more efficacious when you're using it all the time.
- [41:41]
B
Sure.
- [41:42]
A
It'd be like going to the gym once a month and feeling like, you know, you're going to be in the best shape ever, as opposed to, like going to the gym every day and like feeling like. So I've started using this thing and I'm just here to tell you that the stuff that has been coming out of my body is crazy.
- [41:58]
B
Wow. I have not explored ozone therapy at all. But that's interesting.
- [42:04]
A
Well, it's really the, the, I don't know the, the full science behind it, but basically it's energized oxygen.
- [42:12]
B
Sure.
- [42:12]
A
Right. And plants, oxygen is a byproduct of plants. Right. Like they take in carbon monoxide and then they spit out oxygen. And that's kind of the cycle. So they actually don't love oxygen. It's a byproduct for them. So a lot of the stuff that's going on inside of our body that could potentially be infectious, bacterial, viral, whatever it is, is fungus. It's a fungus of some sort. So it is ultimately plant life. Right. I mean, when you think about it, right. Like you leave your water bottle with water and, you know, you leave on a Friday for a trip and you come back on a Monday and you open up your water bottle and, like, there's stuff growing in there. Right. Like, imagine what's happening inside of our body.
- [42:51]
B
Huh?
- [42:51]
A
Right. There's a lot of growth.
- [42:52]
B
Yeah.
- [42:53]
A
In there. And so when you take this hyper energized oxygen and you pump it into the body, the plant life, like freak out and they want to escape, they want to run. And so that's what they're doing inside my body.
- [43:10]
B
I feel like if it works, it works. If it works and it's not hurting anybody and it's accessible, I think you should do it.
- [43:16]
A
I mean, 100% I'm doing it. And it's just exciting to be a. I mean, look, with Lyme, there's so many different things that people tell you, you know, like, and I'm sure you hear it all the time in the whole 30, right? Like, I, I would guarantee some large percentage of people are coming to the whole 30 because they are dealing with some sort of mystery illness that they just can't shake. No doctor can tell them what's wrong with them. They're trying to figure it out. So they're like, all right, I'm just gonna, maybe it's the food I'm eating. Yeah, right. Like, I mean, I would imagine, right?
- [43:49]
B
Yes, that's a huge part, I think. And, and there are a lot of medical doctors who send people to the whole 30 because food is sort of low hanging fruit. It can have a, a really significant impact on whatever health condition you're dealing with. And it can also just help you rule out some of the most common factors. So even if you do the whole 30 and you don't discover any huge food sensitivities, which is entirely possible, you'll at least be able to go back to your doctor and say, well, I ruled out this, this and this, and that gives them a direction to go with your treatment plan.
- [44:21]
A
I, I think the, just the environmental exposures we have today in general are pretty catastrophic in, in, in the 30,000foot view history of humans. Right. Like the last hundred years is very different than the prior999,000 years. Right. Like where we're, where we've been, you know, there's a lot of stuff in the air. And I, I do think that the conversation of autoimmune and sort of mystery illness and mystery virus has a lot to do with toxins. And once our body is toxic and I'm learning about this, you know, I got diagnosed with Lyme in 2018 and I've, you know, I've tried not to obsess because I could easily obsess and just fall into the doom scrolling of like, what is this? Why am I dealing with this? But ultimately, once your immune system is hyperactive and also suppressed at the same time, because that is ultimately what autoimmune is, you just Become way more susceptible to everything else. Right. Mold, heavy metals. Like, your immune system's not working the way it should be. So it's not excreting these things the way it should be. So anytime somebody like me with Lyme finds something that's interesting or potential relief, I kind of go all in. Yeah.
- [45:44]
B
Why wouldn't you?
- [45:45]
A
You know? Yeah.
- [45:46]
B
Listen, even if it's placebo effect, I don't care. I've done some treatments for my concussion that people have said, well, that's probably. It's probably not doing anything. And I'm like, I don't care. It made me feel better. It made me feel better to have these things on my head and send these a little electric zaps that took my concussion headache away. So I don't care if it's placebo or if it's the actual PEMF or whatever it was I was using. If it works, it works.
- [46:09]
A
Are there any therapies that you do kind of on a regular? Like, do you do Cairo? Do you do acupuncture?
- [46:16]
B
I have done chiropractic. I saw a chiropractor, a NUCA certified chiropractor for my concussion, which is a very specific cervical chiropractor, and was incredibly helpful for concussion symptoms. And then occasionally I have seen a chiropractor for hip and pelvis instability, because that's what happens when you have a baby sometimes. Um, otherwise, not really. I mean, I've occasionally seen an acupuncturist, which was great, but not regularly. I get a massage when I can. I've done hyperbaric chamber therapy for my concussion. Again, that was very, very helpful.
- [46:50]
A
So do you do that on a Relatively consistent.
- [46:53]
B
Not anymore. Because my symptoms are mostly manageable. I now only get occasional flares, and my triggers are pretty predictable. But when I was in the worst of my symptoms, it helped a lot. Yeah, that was pretty significantly helpful. That was where the cold showers came from, too, is like you said, I was dealing with these concussion symptoms that were absolutely decimating my quality of life for years. And if anyone suggested that anything could help, I'd be like, I'll try it. Why not? I'll try this supplement. I'll try cold showers. I'll try. And some things did help and some things didn't. But the things that helped helped so much that it felt worth the experimentation.
- [47:29]
A
We've got daily bars here.
- [47:30]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [47:31]
A
And I.
- [47:33]
B
So it's the first time I've seen it in the full, like, in person.
- [47:36]
A
By the way, you are the second person in the world aside from me and the people making it that are trying this bar.
- [47:45]
B
Ooh.
- [47:45]
A
So it's a 20 gram protein bar. It's called the daily bar. It is a plant based bar. It's got three grams of creatine as well. And the flavor that we're tasting right now is the chocolate peanut butter banger.
- [47:58]
B
Okay. My husband would be all over this chocolate and peanut butter is like his jam.
- [48:04]
A
And I know that you're not like the most chocolate peanut buttery person on the planet.
- [48:08]
B
I'm not.
- [48:09]
A
But it's very soft because it literally came off the press today.
- [48:13]
B
It smells delicious. I'm not gonna lie. I do love a good Justin's peanut butter cup. So I'm getting peanut butter cups.
- [48:19]
A
I think you're gonna love this.
- [48:20]
B
Okay. Mm. It has a very good textural component. There's something a little crunchy in there, which I like.
- [48:32]
A
It is a protein puff.
- [48:34]
B
Mm.
- [48:34]
A
Mm.
- [48:35]
B
Good call.
- [48:39]
A
Now it's going to harden up a little bit.
- [48:43]
B
Yeah.
- [48:44]
A
Over time because it's very soft. It's almost like were eating like cookies right out of the oven. Even though there's a. No. There's. There's a no kill process for these. It's just straight up real food.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah.
- [48:57]
A
You know, but I'm like really happy with how these came out.
- [49:03]
B
So. One of the things that I'm always super sensitive to in protein bars is if it tastes fake.
- [49:09]
A
Yep.
- [49:09]
B
If there's. If there are flavors in it and I can tell it's a flavor and not the actual thing. So that's actually one thing I really like about this, is it tastes like peanut butter. It's actual peanut butter.
- [49:19]
A
I love this thing. And this is like this. This is my third bar today.
- [49:26]
B
The macros can't be beat. Listen. I love something that'll give me 20 grams of protein in one sitting.
- [49:31]
A
I'm like, my kid would love this.
- [49:33]
B
For his sports too. Thank you. It's really good.
- [49:40]
A
I feel like it tastes like a peanut butter cup.
- [49:44]
B
It does a little bit. The tap, whatever is in there, the crunchy things that are in there, the puffs. That was necessary. Like, you did a very good job with that. Otherwise I think it would have been too. One note.
- [49:59]
A
Yeah. I like, we used really big peanut. Really big chocolate chips.
- [50:04]
B
I'm.
- [50:04]
A
I'm getting those too big pieces of. Of peanuts and those rice crisps. The rice protein crisps that I think really enhance the texture.
- [50:14]
B
Also, creatine does not always taste good.
- [50:18]
A
True.
- [50:18]
B
And so I was a little like Am I going to taste any creatine in it? And you don't at all. So that's. That's probably why part of this took so long.
- [50:27]
A
I also want to give you. I'm going to grab them real quick. I want to give you the other flavor.
- [50:31]
B
What's the other flavor again?
- [50:34]
A
Probably a flavor that you're not going to be like, super excited about either, but.
- [50:37]
B
Well, I'm not a. It's not. It's not you. I'm just not a sweets person, but I would eat that.
- [50:45]
A
They're downstairs.
- [50:46]
B
All right. It's okay. The peanut butter is really good, though. It's like peanut buttery, which is what you want.
- [50:55]
A
It's a peanut. Yeah, it's a peanut. It's a peanut butter bar. And we have like a really amazing chocolate that we're using. We temper the chocolate, we drizzle it on. It's a vegan chocolate. Super, super high quality chocolate. You know, the guys at the facility were like, you know, you're really using like a premium chocolate, you know, And I was like, I. I know. And that's why we're doing a drizzle. That's why we're not fully enrobing the bar, because that. It would cost a fortune. And they were like, this is the. Basically the best chocolate we've ever. And these guys have been making protein bars for a long time. They're like, this is the best chocolate we've used on a protein bar. You might, like, want to rethink it. And I was like, I'm not rethinking it.
- [51:38]
B
I wouldn't want that whole thing in chocolate either.
- [51:40]
A
It'd be too much.
- [51:40]
B
I don't think you would need it.
- [51:41]
A
It's a rich bar.
- [51:42]
B
Like, it is rich.
- [51:43]
A
It is going to. It is. It is a true snack. Like, you know, whether it's. It's in between your first meal and your second meal, your second meal and your third meal as a dessert after dinner. Like, it is truly, in my opinion, like a satiating. Like, you're gonna eat one of those bars and you're gonna be like, I feel I'm good.
- [52:02]
B
Yeah.
- [52:02]
A
Satiated.
- [52:03]
B
It's a mini meal.
- [52:04]
A
Yeah. I like how you said that. Mini meal.
- [52:06]
B
Yeah, it's good. Congrats.
- [52:09]
A
I'm so happy you like it.
- [52:10]
B
Very long road. I know it was such a long.
- [52:12]
A
Road because we went through a lot, right? Like. Like, it was not easy to land.
- [52:17]
B
No. I tested earlier iterations too. This is better.
- [52:20]
A
It's better.
- [52:21]
B
I liked the old ones. This is way better.
- [52:23]
A
And honestly, this tastes. I, like, had come to terms because I just didn't think that I was ever going to land on, like, this is the right perfect thing. So we had, we had tasted so many with the creatine and the first versions with creatine were not good. Yeah, they were just. I was just like, no, it's a.
- [52:39]
B
Hard ingredient to work with.
- [52:41]
A
I was like, I just taste way too much creatine.
- [52:43]
B
Yeah.
- [52:43]
A
Like, I taste way too much creatine. And so we just, like, you know, pulled levers and, and I got to a place where I was like, it's really good, but I kind of still taste it. But I don't think I'm going to be able to get, like, that's gonna go away. And then, boom, we put it on the machines and I watched them dump all the creatine into the mix.
- [53:00]
B
Yeah, you can't taste it at all.
- [53:01]
A
Right.
- [53:02]
B
Impressive. Yes. I've tried other forms of creatine. It's. You just gotta get it down.
- [53:08]
A
Yeah. Melissa Urban, I am so grateful for you. Just, for just being a supporter and a friend and doing what you do and being consistent. You know, it's, it's, it's rare that you find somebody that actually does what they say they're going to do. You make a lot of friendships or friendships and you develop relationships in this world and then like, you just never hear from someone again.
- [53:33]
B
Yeah.
- [53:34]
A
You know, or, hey, like, how can I help you? You know, like, oh, just, you know, you can count on me. And then, like, you know, you shoot them a call or a text a couple months down the line and it's just like you can hear a pin drop. And you've just always been just down to help. So it means a lot.
- [53:49]
B
I will, I will always answer your psychotic cold calls, Michael.
- [53:54]
A
You know, like, I. Victor, you know, Victor is, he's. He's working full time at Creatures again. Right. Like, Victor was kind of how we first met. Yeah. And if there's one thing that I'm grateful for that guy, you know, is that, like, I know that when I'm wake up at like one o' clock in the morning, like, head spinning on some business thing, if I pick up the phone and call him, he will literally wake up and pick up and.
- [54:22]
B
He'S good, he's good people.
- [54:23]
A
He's good people.
- [54:24]
B
Which is why when Victor was like, you need to meet this person, I was like immediately, yes.
- [54:27]
A
Yeah.
- [54:28]
B
He hasn't steered me wrong yet.
- [54:29]
A
He's a good man. Yeah, he's a good man.
- [54:31]
B
Happy to be here. Always happy to see you in person. Super happy to help launch this.
- [54:36]
A
How can, like, if people want to find out about more about you, more about the Whole30, like, where would you send them?
- [54:41]
B
Yes, everything. Whole30 is just Whole30 w h o l e. And the number three zero website, Instagram, TikTok, you name it. And then I'm primarily on Instagram at. Melissa, you okay?
- [54:53]
A
You know, before we close out, I just, I do want to talk. I just. I did want to ask you about marriage. Is that something that you're cool with?
- [55:03]
B
I am already married.
- [55:04]
A
I'm sorry, will you. But I wanted to just talk about marriage because it's been coming up a lot in my life and people and like, some of the content that I've been making that has been resonating way more than other stuff is when I talk about marriage, you know, and like, how hard it is, how amazing it is, and like, things that have been successful in keeping the wheels on the car. Right. Are there things in your marriage that you have noticed? Because I should also preface by saying, like, there is no perfect marriage.
- [55:46]
B
No, of course not.
- [55:47]
A
Right. Like, they're hard. No matter how you slice it, Two brains, two different upbringings have to meet in the middle on almost everything to successfully walk the path of marriage.
- [56:03]
B
Yeah.
- [56:04]
A
And you have to find a way. So are there things that you have done in your marriage that have been. That have stood out as ways to just like, deepen the relationship, navigate when things get tough?
- [56:19]
B
Yes. It's actually one of the things that you just said. When I first met my husband, which was 2017, when I first met him, I had this conversation where I was like, I will always say what I mean, will never have to wonder what I'm thinking. If you say, are you mad? And I say, no, you can trust that I'm not mad at you and you won't take it personally and you can go about your day understanding that it's about something else. If you say, can I go do this thing? And I say, yes, you're not going to have to worry that you're going to go off and do it and come home and I'm going to be seething and resentful because I didn't really want you to do it. I will always say what I mean and I expect you to do the same. So if I say to you, hey, are you okay? You're kind of look like you're having a bad day. And you say, I'm Fine. Okay. I'm gonna go about my day. We don't have a problem unless or until you tell me that we have a problem, and vice versa. And it took a little while, I think, for him to trust that, which I understand. Right. So often in communication, there's. There are hints, and there's passive aggressiveness, and you kind of want the other person to read your mind. And I think that's just such B.S. but once we learned to trust it, it made all of our communication a thousand times easier. A thousand times. Because if he's stalking around in a bad mood, I never assume it's about me, because if it is, he would have told me already, and we would have talked about it and dealt with it. So I think that is, like, my relationship golden rule, and I think it solves a lot of issues and a lot of problems. We've brought my son into that too, where, you know, he'll notice that someone's having a bad day, and he'll say, did I do something? And it's like, nope, not about you at all. And he's like, okay. And he knows. So I think that's one of the things that has made this the healthiest relationship I've ever been in by far, is just that commitment to clear communication and saying what you mean.
- [58:02]
A
What does like. I mean, arguing is, in my opinion, necessary in a relationship. Right. I mean, it's just necessary.
- [58:12]
B
Yeah.
- [58:13]
A
Arguing escalating to a fight, I don't think it's necessary, but I do think that it's warranted at times. Is there a way that you like to argue?
- [58:25]
B
Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. My husband and I handle conflict differently, and it was very important up front that we talk about how we handle it differently. His tendency is to just shut down and go away, and he would just end the conversation and walk out the door. And I'm okay with that. If there's an understanding that you're gonna come back to the table and we're gonna sit down and figure it out, if you need to take that time and space, that's okay, but you have to say to me, I need an hour, and I'll be back, and then we can talk about it. If I say to you, we can't talk about this anymore, or I'm gonna say something that I'm not gonna be happy about saying, you need to trust that I mean that, and you need to give me that space, and I'll come back as soon as I can, but I'm the one who sort of, I'm willing to sit down and, like, I don't need to go away. I'll talk it through. If I need a minute, I'll take that minute. But understanding that that was how we argued or how we dealt with conflict was really important. And so now when there's conflict, I think the one thing that we remind ourselves of all the time is it is not me against him. It is us against the issue. And that's not unique. I'm not the first person to say that. But when we get into an argument where it feels like I'm not being heard and he feels like he's not being heard, very quickly, we remember, okay, like, we're a team and there's something happening and we're not sure how to deal with it, but let's talk about how we're going to handle it together. And that helps. So we definitely argue. But that commitment to speaking clearly and saying what we mean and the understanding that if he says something, it's not personal, it's because he honestly thinks it's going to be helpful for us to get to a resolution that works for everyone and kind of giving him that benefit of the doubt is what makes us kind of get through those arguments really quickly and end up in a great place afterward.
- [60:17]
A
I want to put a massive highlight on what you just said. It's not you against me or me against you. It's us against the situation or the problem or the issue that we're actually arguing over. I think that is so. That is so profound to think about as you're entering into an argument, because you could totally extrapolate the me versus you if that is the. The sort of strategy. Yeah, right. Like, okay, we're gonna. We're gonna take away this you versus me thing, and we're gonna just, like, you know, literally put the problem here and then try to figure out how you and I can come to terms with understanding how the both of us can navigate through with this problem in our path.
- [61:05]
B
Yeah.
- [61:06]
A
Wow.
- [61:07]
B
The other thing I will say is my husband is very patient and now understands that sometimes I have to blow up a little before I can calm down and receive. And so he is willing to sit and sort of let me pop off and go off and just say what I need to say. And sometimes I'll even say, I know I'm being ridiculous, but I need to get this out. And he's like, okay, and I'll get it all out and say all the things I want to say. And then it's like, I can drop in and go, okay, now let's talk about what we need to talk about. And he doesn't take it personally, and he doesn't get offended, and he just sort of knows that that's my process sometimes. And he's willing to be the person that hears that but doesn't pick it up.
- [61:50]
A
I also think it's important to highlight the doesn't take it personally thing, because that is so. One of the greatest books, in my opinion, written of all time is the Four Agreements. And, you know, if you can live your life by those four agreements, chances are you're going to be a happier human. The chances of you actually living your life by those four agreements all the time, slim to none. The one that I think is the most powerful and makes the biggest impact is really trying to not take things personally in any and all situations.
- [62:24]
B
Yeah.
- [62:25]
A
Very difficult to do. But I. Because typically, if somebody feels threatened, human condition is, I'm gonna defend myself. I'm gonna defend myself, you know, like, whether I'm defending myself in the corner, up against the ropes, or I'm defending myself on the attack.
- [62:43]
B
Yeah.
- [62:44]
A
Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna defend myself if I. If I feel threatened. And so really, I. I think understanding. It's not about you and me, it's about the problem. Understanding what is said here should not be taken personally, if possible, because once one of the people in the party begin the defensive response, or I should rather say reaction, it's kind of over.
- [63:17]
B
Yeah. It's hard to come back from that. The other person has to be real grounded, real calm to sort of redirect that conversation. And that's hard to do, especially if someone is defensive on the attack.
- [63:28]
A
Especially if. And this is. I've run up against is not only in my marriage, but in, like, business dealings. Like, that person could totally be calm, cool, and collected, but also be incredibly passive aggressive at the same time.
- [63:41]
B
I know.
- [63:42]
A
And then that's. That almost is worse. Yeah. Right. Like, I'd rather you, like, bite my head off than be like, what are you talking about? I'm totally. Yeah, I'm.
- [63:50]
B
You know, this is the say what you mean part.
- [63:51]
A
Yeah.
- [63:52]
B
Yeah.
- [63:53]
A
Last thing that I just want to ask about when it comes to this stuff, arguing in front of children. Any. Any thoughts on. On having an argument in front of your child?
- [64:06]
B
It happens. I would say we've never argued voraciously in front of him, but it's obvious to kids when you have a difference of opinion. Right. The kid asks about Something you feel one way, spouse feels another way. The thing I always try to remember, and again, I didn't make this up. I learned this from parenting and relationship, but is to make sure the kid sees the repair as well, not just the argument. So if we can repair in front of him, if it's like, you know, I'm a big fan of right there in the moment saying, oh, babe, I'm sorry I was really short with you, had a really rough day, but I shouldn't take it out on you, I'm sorry. And he's like, that's okay, I understand. We do that in front of the kid. We don't do it off camera. We make sure that he sees that there's a coming back together and fixing it and like how we fix it. And I think that's really important. It's natural to argue and have disagreements and have bad days and be short with each other. But if one person calls it out and then you go behind the scenes to fix it, then all the kid sees is the argument and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, mom and dad are okay again. What happened?
- [65:09]
A
I love that. I think that that's also a really, really interesting piece to be able to introduce to the audience. Like, look, as parents, right, we are going to argue. And if you're on a family vacation where a lot of these arguments take place, you're typically in a hotel room altogether. You know, like it's gonna, they're gonna witness that. Right. I do think having that kiss and make up piece be also part of that story is great. You know, I posted something recently because I heard it from, I don't remember who, but it really, really struck a chord with me. And it basically said, the greatest gift we can give our kids is our own happiness. And I was like, like, I think that kind of sums it up, right? Like how we show up in front of them. They're like, like we may have developed our ability to assess or read a room or read the people around us, but they're in, specifically in the age my kids are, you know, 8 and 10, they are truly in that like absorption phase of life. Right. So they are looking subconsciously for body language, words, anything. They're looking to like really understand how to do what you and I have now learned to do, which is an evolved way of assessing a situation, understanding if I want to talk to that person, not talk to that person, is that a good person to develop relationship? They're like learning that now.
- [66:45]
B
Yeah.
- [66:45]
A
And so the way we show up in front of them is ultimately going to dictate and influence how they feel, you know, and if you can't do anything, showing up well is like, I think the best thing I would say.
- [67:07]
B
Well, means showing up human. I don't want my kid to think that I never make mistakes and that I never have to apologize and that I never get it wrong with him or my husband or somebody else. Like showing up human and not being afraid to show your kids. Yeah. Sometimes we argue. Here's how we work through it. Yes, sometimes I'm mad at you, but here's why I'm mad. I told you why. We talked about what you're gonna do differently next time, and now it's done, and we're good, and we can move on. I think all of those are really important for your child to see. I don't. My parents generation hid all of that stuff that was all done behind closed doors, the talking about bad things and arguments and disagreements, and that was all done away from the kids. And you could feel that there was something weird happening or something bad happening, but you didn't know what it was, and it almost felt worse. I want to do all of that stuff with him in a way that still feels healthy. He's not. He doesn't need to hear everything. But I want to do that with him so that he understands what it's like to have conflict, what it's like to be angry, how to express that anger, how to apologize.
- [68:15]
A
All right, I've kept you here long enough. I really wanted to get that from you because I. I respect your. The way you walk through the world, and you have, you know, obviously built this, like, incredible, incredible community of people that really look to you as someone to learn from. And so being able to, like, impart that with our. Our audience and our community. In the world of parenting and marriage and relationships, you know, a lot of people think of me as a fitness food entrepreneur guy, and I have this whole other life as a dad and a husband that I love way more than my entrepreneurial fitness world. Right. Like, I love. If I. If there was one thing I can do all day, every day would truly be like, I really love hanging out with the wife and kids.
- [69:06]
B
Yeah.
- [69:07]
A
And I've been trying to shake and break the stigma around. There's no work life balance. Like, I just don't buy it.
- [69:15]
B
Yeah.
- [69:15]
A
I don't. I just. I think it's. And if you disagree, great. Like, you know, I could. We can go on forever about why I think that that's just. It should not be the case. There should be a great balance. If anything, the balance should be weighed heavier on the. On the family stuff, honestly, is my opinion. But you're awesome. I'm so grateful for having you here. Um, and just. Thanks for just being you.
- [69:37]
B
Always good to talk.
- [69:39]
A
Guys, another episode with the one, the only Melissa Urban. I know that you guys are going to love this one. I know. I enjoyed sitting here and being with Melissa. Do me a favor, please. The only thing I ask of you for listening to this podcast is to share it. Share it with a friend. Share it with a family member. Share it with someone you're battling with. Imagine that. Imagine you sent this podcast to a foe to a foe and said, hey, you know what? I was listening to this podcast made me think of you. I know that we're battling. I want to bury the hatchet. Give this a listen. It made me feel good. Maybe it'll make you feel good. You guys go grab a cup of coffee. Two weeks later, you never know, right? I love doing this podcast and I'm so, so appreciative of you guys listening to the podcast and subscribing to the podcast and giving us awesome reviews. So, yeah, I'm grateful to be here in Utah with one of the. One of the best in the game. And now you got a little insight into Melissa's life and go follow her. Melissa, the whole 30. Go check it all out. Until the next one. Family peace.
- [70:56]
B
Sa.