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Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
Why Athletic Brewing Is Winning the NA Beer Market | Bill Shufelt | Kreatures of Habit
00:57:02
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- [00:00]
Michael Chernow
How important do you think, being sort of like a unwavering optimist in the world of entrepreneurship, how important do you
- [00:10]
Bill Shufelt
think that is the solution? It's like that meme of the guy digging for like the diamonds and like he gets to like within a sliver of it and turns back. There's always a solution, like a little farther. I think optimism has been a huge part of probably both my daily approach and my ability to shake off any sort of terrible day and, and really have a goldfish mentality the next day.
- [00:31]
Michael Chernow
Not only what you've done, but just the kind of movement towards not having to get hammered. Every restaurant that has any kind of relevance has a legitimate non alcoholic mocktail menu.
- [00:49]
Bill Shufelt
If we could destigmatize that choice, like, we'd probably have a positive impact on tens of millions of people. If we could just make moderation, delicious, well marketed, accessible. There is now going to be generations of people turning 21 where they don't know there's supposed to be a stigma between the left and right side of the menu. Try doing it one day of the week, like where you might have had two beers on a Wednesday, have two athletics in that moment, and just think about it on Thursday. An entrepreneur straight out of New York City.
- [01:21]
Michael Chernow
Michael Chernow.
- [01:22]
Bill Shufelt
What's cracking?
- [01:30]
Michael Chernow
So, Bill, you have a very unique story, but not like an untraditional story. The finance guy that probably works around the clock probably drinks way more than he or she would like to admit and probably feels less fulfillment than they were hoping for. Getting into the world of finance where it's predominantly about cash money. You figure out in 2013 that this isn't going to work, you're not fulfilled and you want to step out of this pretty plush gig in the finance world and start a business or start a. Or you are inspired to start a business. The business is Athletic Brewing. It is the number one non alcoholic beer brewing company in the United States of America, potentially the world. But you own 20% of the market share, which is just bananas. Right? That's. That's bananas. So I just want to hear. What made you think that you were going to be able to introduce non alcoholic beer to a world of people that you did not know because everybody you knew were finance bros and drinkers.
- [03:00]
Bill Shufelt
Yeah. And definitely number one in the US We've got a long way to go to be number one in the world, but we intend to get there one day. And you for having me here, I just like, I love your energy. I feel like we've been on Parallel journeys in so many ways over the years and just so excited to connect and share those stories together. But yeah, I think it was a confidence that, you know, I, I guess I, even though I was, you know, working a fairly traditional career and I guess had fairly traditional goals and I didn't have an entrepreneurial bone in my body too, when what I thought, or at least I'd kind of grown up believing that I always considered myself like an early adopter and very confident in the trends I was on and whether it was different technology platforms or I had built websites in middle school and I was very early on certain technologies previously. And for some reason I'd given up that whole entrepreneurial side and gotten on a very focused financial track. So I guess I had this weird confidence that I was an early adopter and I could identify tipping points before they happened. And I'd seen that play out a few different times with whether it was like different, different software, social networks and things and, but at the end of the day it was just so obvious to me. I like, and I know you've been there, but like when I stopped drinking and I felt so good, it was like the biggest hack I'd ever uncovered. And every part of my life was getting better, I was getting more productive, I was getting better sleep, my relationships were better, all the things I wanted to advance my life on, work, life, love, happiness, career, like it was just all improving. And this is not health advice, is just personal experience and me sharing my story. But it was so obvious to me then that health and wellness was a trend where information was getting democratized, tools and resources were going to get destigmatized, better access and that this was going to be a huge mega trend. But then my non alcoholic and drinking journey got much more personal beyond that and, and so there is like a personal impact part of that as well.
- [05:03]
Michael Chernow
Did you, were you like at a moment in time where you hit like bottom or was it, were you just like, this isn't going to, this isn't going to get me where I want to go, this drinking alcohol thing?
- [05:18]
Bill Shufelt
Yeah, I, in many ways I don't know if I actually knew where I wanted to go. I, you know, I grew up in a great house, super supportive, got good grades, did every activity and you know, in my mindset it was just, dude, do every activity, get good grades, go to college and get to the career and finance and make money. And that's the end point. And so I was thinking like eventually like family and money were the end points. I Guess. And then I was going to build on that. And those are good endpoints, I guess. But I, as I was getting closer to that, I was finding like a lot of hollowness there. And, and so I, even though my career was intellectually challenging, I loved the people I worked with. I dreaded work because it didn't have a fulfillment element to me. I wasn't, you know, if you step back and look at all the different vectors of wellness, like, yeah, maybe I was getting there on financial wellness, but I was not there on health. I was not there on spiritual, I was not there on vocational. You know, there's so many different vectors of wellness. And I was really very low on the 1 to 10 score of a lot of those. And I think there were. I hadn't done the proper reflection at that point too, because my, my work day was 6am to 6pm extremely intellectually intense. Then nights, weekends, I was either out with work colleagues, out with friends, out with family, but I was drinking fairly heavily outside of work hours and it was social and there was really no time to step back and get a lot of perspective on where my life was at in those moments. So I, I think there was a lot of unaddressed examination that I eventually did and I, I've done even more in hindsight with like 10 years of hindsight on it. I think in many ways my path has a lot of luck to it and choosing making these decisions. But yeah, I think at the core there, there was deep unfulfillment in a lot of different areas of my life and that led to the drinking. And I think that was part of. Because I was chasing potentially hollow endpoints and starting to realize that and just wanted to get through that phase of my career and get past it.
- [07:22]
Michael Chernow
I have a few questions that came to mind while you were talking. So one, did you stop drinking before you decided to leave finance?
- [07:34]
Bill Shufelt
Yes. Yeah, I stopped drinking two, two and a half, three years before.
- [07:39]
Michael Chernow
Okay, so you were two and a half, three years not drinking. I would imagine that made your job more challenging because that fulfillment piece, that lack of fulfillment piece was getting more and more polarized because you, you weren't, you weren't ducking and weaving with alcohol. Tell us about the day that you pulled the plug on finance.
- [08:02]
Bill Shufelt
Finance? Yeah, that was January 2nd, 2017. Um, I mean, even going back a bit from there. Yeah, I stopped drinking and I probably should have realized at least six months, maybe six years before that moment that like, drinking was not building to any of my life goals. And it was amazing after I stopped drinking, that none of my friends cared if I drank or not. None of my colleagues that I was close with cared if I drank or not. And that might have been the way the world was going already and just the products weren't available, but that was a huge light bulb for me, is that I was having just as much fun and people did not care if I didn't drink. But like, moving on from that, like, that's when the intellectual light bulb went on. The self improvement started for me and the idea came way later for Athletic brewing and the need it could fill in the world on the specific day of January 2, 2017, which we're coming up on 10 years on now. I had been working on the idea for two years at that point, like
- [09:06]
Michael Chernow
two behind the scenes.
- [09:08]
Bill Shufelt
I'd had the idea in December of 2014 on vacation with my wife, and I'd just been working nights and weekends. And I found like a natural passion where for the first time in my life I wanted to work on something. Not because there was a paycheck involved, there was almost for sure not a paycheck involved in this idea. It was just a really fun intellectual exploration, reading brewing textbooks, doing a business plan, taking inspiration from a lot of great entrepreneurs. And so I was having a lot of fun with that. But two weeks before I quit my job, I told my first colleague about it and I said it was on a ski trip. I was like, I just gotta tell someone about this. There's like a 10% chance I ever do anything with it, but, like, just gotta tell you about it. And he was like, that's pretty cool. Like, and we didn't really, like, we probably talked about for like an hour and like. But I got home from that ski trip and my wife, who is extremely sharp, has her MBA and was like, probably in the right zone to see good entrepreneurial fire. She basically took me out to dinner and was like, I've gone through all the materials again and I want you to quit your job. She was like, I don't care about the family budget. I don't want to know you in eight years if you have not taking a run at this. Like, you clearly have so much more passion and impact for this than anything else you're doing in finance. That is like slowly killing you. I see you crawl in the door every night. And so basically I didn't sleep for three nights after that and walked in and quit. And my friend was like, like, what the hell happened to 10%? But really I, I was Shocked, like, so none of, like, no one ever quits. 0.72. It's a great firm. There's all the opportunity in the world. Steve Cohen is a great leader of that business, and I have a lot of friends in that building. Since no one ever quits, a lot of people get fired. There's an extremely high standard there. But no one quits. But for some reason, no one seemed that shocked when I told them. They just, like, saw the passion, saw I was interested in it. Clearly, if I was quitting, I was, like, very passionate about the idea. And they'd seen the transformation a bit that I'd gone through. And rather than, like, shock and surprise at it, a lot of people have just been extremely helpful, too, in that building. Like, really good advice. You know, one of our best board members is still is. Is one of the top people there. And so it's. But it was in the actual experience that day. Sorry, I'm going on forever.
- [11:38]
Michael Chernow
No, no, this is good.
- [11:39]
Bill Shufelt
Like, in the not all prisons have walls type thing, I, like, I used to walk by people in my two different jobs I was at each for six or seven years and see people who got to, like, sit at a picnic table outside by the water or in a nice setting in the sun. And like, I used to be like, imagine if I could, like, read Twitter for five minutes during the workday. Like, I didn't have any break at all like that. And all of a sudden that day I left and I went to a deli and I was, like, sitting by myself for the sandwich. I was like, they're people out here. Like, they're like. Like, it was the weirdest experience to be just, like, out in the world. Like, new horizon. Like, the next morning, I didn't wake up to a thousand emails that I had to triage and stress about and figure out what stocks were moving and how I was going to get blown up that day. And there's just nothing in my inbox. And like, I was building from scratch. And it was. It was a shocking. And it just, like a really hard reset on life. Like, I had built my whole life for that moment in my career I was at. And then my wife convinced me in a span of like, 3 days to just scrap it all and start fresh and literally had nothing. The phone didn't ring. No emails. No one wanted to take phone calls from there on out.
- [12:56]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, I think it. I think it makes sense to just transition a bit for a moment and talk about how incredible it is to have a supportive wife. Yeah, let's hear about your supportive wife.
- [13:11]
Bill Shufelt
Yeah, I, I mean there's so many things we've, I've gotten so lucky with that athletic and that is definitely core. Like right from the moment I said the idea out loud for the first time, it wasn't like, like met with any resistance or anything. It was like, there's so much enthusiasm. She hit me in the shoulder and spun me around while we were walking. And then we talked about it excitedly for six hours. And that like jump started, like, that was like lighting dynamite rather than like getting my idea stepped on, which I'm sure happens 99% of the time. And then she. All the recommendations along the way of business planning. She's like, have you looked into joining guilds? Are there any associations? Like, have you done like sampling and survey software and like all these different great recommendations in business planning too? And then ultimately, like, more importantly than anything, like, you know how stressful it is finding financially, emotionally, everything to start a business and like the values are so deep and you cut it so close financially to have someone who is in on the financials and budgeting and doesn't care about lifestyle sacrifice for a future that may or may not be there is probably not there. Like just cares to see me go for it. It was, was amazing. Yeah.
- [14:25]
Michael Chernow
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- [15:23]
Bill Shufelt
Coming up on 12 years.
- [15:25]
Michael Chernow
Okay, so would you agree with that statement? Because it sounds to me like had your wife not like looked at you in the eye and said, bill, I want you to do this and I don't want to see you in eight years wishing you would have done this and regretting it, like, that's a, that is a mountain moving conversation.
- [15:51]
Bill Shufelt
Right? For sure. And to, you know, we were at a good spot in our lifestyle the prior year. We Were able to like rent a beach house in the Hamptons for the full summer for the first time and like to like get to some of those milestones together and then take a big step back to budgeting to almost no income. Is I, I totally agree. Yeah, we've, we met right at the end of high school and so she's seen my journey and I think she recognized the moment of entrepreneurial fire and what it meant to me and like supported me right through that. And I, I, I absolutely think your, your partner in life is the biggest decision you'll ever make. And then also like I, you know there's so many lucky things about the athletic journey too. Like this is certainly not an individual journey and I'm here representing the work now of 300 people. But I have an amazing co founder too at athletic and I talked to hundreds of people who largely got rejected from in that six months after I left my prior job. And John Walker, our co founder and COO is like to find someone and you know, the craziness of the idea, the lack of market, the mission elements of it probably self selected in finding someone like John potentially. But both of us are on such a lifelong like self improvement educational journey. Like the amount of co founder stories I hear where like one of the founders or one of the multiple founders gets stuck at a stage of the business and one keeps growing and there's big tension left. Like I admire how much John is like both of us have just been growing into each of the next phase of the business and so supportive of each other too. So that's like very similar in a way too. Like this business would have never have worked without John and then would never have worked without like 25 to 100 people beyond the two of us too.
- [17:41]
Michael Chernow
You know it's really funny and interesting to think that finance, successful people in finance are small population, lots of people that graduate from college, specifically great colleges. Finance is like a very, very strong North Star. The magnetic sort of pull from great schools to finance is strong and I think it very quickly weeds out the people that are not built for it. But I also think that finance weeds out the entrepreneurs. It weeds out the entrepreneurs because so many great entrepreneurs have actually come from the world of finance that are like you, that just did not find the fulfillment. I would just be so curious because you've spent a lot of time with people that are successful in finance. Like what is the ethos of the human being that is totally fulfilled in finance? What do you think? There's people like you and me, who, I mean, I know for certain that I'm just a born entrepreneur. I believe that that's just who I am. Ambitious, ambition wise, and my sort of ability to just withstand an abnormal amount of anxiety and stress in comparison to like the normal human being. Because I think that is a prerequisite for, you know, entrepreneurship. You know, you said how, how close you fly to the sun on the financials. Like a lot of people, you know, they see and I'm sure even in your business, where you're way beyond anything that I've ever built in athletic brewing, but even at that scale, there are very scary moments, you know, like super scary moments where the facade is like pretty and shiny and then when you pull back the curtain, everybody is, is still like, okay, we got to figure out how to get to this point or else it's over. Or it's, it's, we're in a bad place. What is the, what is the finance person that, that sticks with it forever? And is it money? Is it, is it, is there North Star money?
- [20:10]
Bill Shufelt
I, I, I would say anyone who is in it for money and then has a, anyway, way too kind on athletic versus your businesses. I have such heart for everything you've built. I want to lose that thought.
- [20:25]
Michael Chernow
Thank you, man.
- [20:27]
Bill Shufelt
I think like money is a hollow endpoint that keeps shifting and people don't realize that. Like, I've met people at every step of the journey, well past 100 million, who are still totally miserable chasing that money endpoint. I do know all sorts of people in the financial world who are so happy and doing exactly what they want too. Like I, I've met some of the smartest, most contrarian intellectual people and, and when they hit an idea that is different from the crowd, like you can see it, like they may still be stressed, but that is what they're meant to do. And I don't think, I don't even know how much they're looking at the piano after that. I think it's about the idea and being right and utilizing their superior intellect and yeah, so like some of the people I've bumped into, I'm very glad I had and I loved watching them play that out. I'd say in terms of like tying, like finance, what helped me entrepreneurship, like even all the way back. Like I, I generally am someone who's just in forward motion. I like to work hard. I can take a beat down, whether it's sports, academics. I played three sports, did all honors classes in high school. I rode the ambulance as an emt you know, as an emt, an ambulance driver, had some incredibly stressful situations. Like I think was on scene at like four or five heart attacks, like as a 16 year old in charge of the early scene. So that was like real stress and real meaning. And then like, you know when a stock blows up and you're trying to buy as much of as you can and everyone's screaming at you, like it's a lot easier to keep your head or like in the financial crisis when like 35 or 300 stocks are all crashing at the same time and you've got a thousand clients like that you're trying to execute trades for. It's like some, it, it all kind of like puts it in perspective a little bit more like people in my financial career. Not that I was like relaxed and passive and not in motion. I was just like evenly keeled and executing as fast as I could on as many things as I could. But people did used to ask if I was like stoned or like, do you smoke weed before work? Like why are you so even keeled? You never yell at anyone. Like just like doing my thing. I'm operating. And I, I would say carrying through to entrepreneurship too. I'm, I'm generally just like such an optimistic person. I don't dwell on a lot of things that have happened. Of course I have regrets, but I don't like ruminate on Mrs. And faults. I try to like pick up the learning, carry it forward and get going forward as much as I can. Like what's happened, happened. I'm going to build to the future and so carry a lot of that mindset into and just try to make progress every day too, I think. Yeah, so I've generally been someone who's not like the biggest flurries of immediate dynamic action, but just like action all the time. And that's pretty relentless.
- [23:17]
Michael Chernow
How important do you think, being sort of like a unwavering optimist in the world of entrepreneurship, how important do you think that is?
- [23:30]
Bill Shufelt
I, I, I think it's huge in a way because like there's so many times in athletic where holding on a little longer working or like a little later or an extra day on something rather than throwing in the towel. The solution, it's like that meme of the guy digging for like the diamonds and like he gets to like within a sliver of it and turns back like there's always a solution, like a little farther. So I, I think optimism has been a huge part of probably both my daily approach and my ability to Shake off any sort of terrible day and really have a goldfish mentality the next day. And then, you know, I, I think just like being a pessimist, you can, you can get right like one out of every 100 times. And like, very often you're going to miss your negative event or you're going to get blown up before it hits or something like, World's built by Optimus.
- [24:24]
Michael Chernow
I think there's two kinds of people, and I like to use sort of metaphor, right, like you have. I'm a die hard New York Giants fan. I've been a die hard New York Giants fan since birth, and it has not been an easy run, Right? There was a few years there where it was great, but for the most part, for my lifetime, it hasn't been. It hasn't been wonderful. There's a New York Giants fan that's like me every Sunday morning during football season. I look at my sons and I'm like, guys, we're going to kill it today. Like, we're Giants fans. We are going to kill it. There's no way. And then there's the New York Giants fan that's like, the Giants suck. They just suck. I'm. I'm a fan because I was born into this life, but. But they just suck. And I kind of think of the world like that, right? There's two kinds of people. People that are just going to walk into every situation, not allowing the past to predict the present or the future, and just like going in with your chin down, your eyes up, protecting your jaw with your. With your hands. And then there are other people that just kind of are like, as long as we don't lose, we'll be all right, you know?
- [25:40]
Bill Shufelt
Well, I mean, on the fun side, if you're negative and they end up winning, you've missed it. Like, I'm. I'm the guy who. I'm most. A Boston sports fan. I spend my summers on Cape Cod. But like last year with the Red Sox, like, I was like, so optimistic with the young talent in the beginning of the year, like, a lot of my friends were like, it's not worth your time. Don't watch any games. But I was like, hitting them in July. Like, I knew it and. But that's where the fun is. But I think risk management is a real thing too, like in the business sense. Like any good business operator. Whether it's like a financial business or like a real world business, it. It. A lot of people win with the same frequency. It's how much you blow up too. So you gotta be learning your lessons, cutting your losses, not riding everything to the ground. And, and so that could be anything from products to people to financial mistakes, coming clean, cutting things as early as you can and. Yeah.
- [26:42]
Michael Chernow
So how Many, how many SKUs do you guys have now at Athletic Brewing?
- [26:47]
Bill Shufelt
Oh my goodness. We've probably released. It has to be 200 to 300 beers. We do about 50 beers a year. A lot of like, some of those are repeat fan favorites. And then we tend to have between 6 and 10 on retail shelves at a different point. So which are like the most highly awarded biggest fan favorites to get there?
- [27:07]
Michael Chernow
Tell us about the moment when you for the first time in the business knew that you had done something special.
- [27:20]
Bill Shufelt
It's so tough to say, but I think you know John, our co founder, like we, we met on Internet message boards. I flew to New Mexico. He saw potential in it. There's a certain kind of crazy there. But like when we started working together, we were homebrewing on Gatorade jugs for the better part of a year in an empty warehouse together, just getting to know each other. And I got to know how talented John was. I was like, oh my goodness, this guy knows how to taste beer. And he is so sharp at brewing. I had known he'd won a bunch of brewing awards, but when he first said after like the 35th batch, he's like, this is starting to taste really good. Like, like award winning alcoholic beer. Not just like pretty good non alcoholic beer. And that's when I, I almost knew at that point had like unwavering faith that like we were going to be able to figure everything else out. But I, I, so I did. That first summer we were on the market, I did 75 events, whether it was like local 5Ks to ultramarathons to Ironman and Spartan races, just talking to thousands of people a weekend, putting beer in their hands. And I knew when you know, this is a category that in 2018 was totally non consideration. Like, it was so heavily stigmatized. The category was basically a rounding error to zero. Anyone you talk to would be like, why would I drink that? They taste terrible. Like, I want the alcohol. Everyone thought, like I had thought also that like the whole point of drinking a beer was for alcohol until I started just drinking and socializing and not having the alcohol and realized how great that was and as a meal pairing and all that. So when I, in the moment when I would put those samples in people's hands, if I could convince them to try it, which was Hard. But the light bulb moment where they would reflect and digest and be like, oh my goodness, so this has 50 calories. I can drink this any night of the week and feel pretty good about it. Wow, this is better than my favorite ipa. And you just see the light bulb go on. I knew we could figure out everything else from there and. But there were also all sorts of like real world moments too, where I know you've seen it probably is like, like D2C was not nearly in 2018, especially for CPG, what it is today. And people are like, why are you trying to sell on the Internet? Like nothing is like, food's not sold on the Internet, beer's not sold in the Internet. I was like, I'm just gonna like hang out a shingle and like see who like signs up and like buys our beer. And before I knew it, it was like Ticketmaster drops every Monday at 5 o' clock when we'd put like non alcoholic beer had been only like very watery, tasteless lagers before Athletic launched. And all of a sudden Every Monday at 5pm There was this small crap brewery in Connecticut putting out like unbelievably flavorful, new to world styles of nonalcoholic beer. And like, like they would sell out in like 20, 30 seconds and like my phone would vibrate hours and like there's all sorts of moments like that where I was like, wow, we've like really found our community here.
- [30:28]
Michael Chernow
Dude, that is so great. I got. And I just want to thank you personally because I have been sober for 21 years and I love beer. For a long time I was scared to drink non alcoholic beer because I thought that it would actually get me the taste to want to drink regular beer. That has never happened. It's never happened. Now I can't say that's. I can only share my personal experience, but for me on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday afternoon is when I drink a non alcoholic, athletic brewing beer to crack open a can of beer, pour it into a pint glass and drink it with lunch or dinner. Like for me it's really about. I don't just drink it on like, ah, it's like Tuesday afternoon I'm gonna crack one. I drink it when I'm, when I'm, when I'm having a meal. It's like the greatest. For me, I'm like, holy smokes. Like I can have an actual beer that tastes like actual delicious beer. I don't have to worry about sobriety. I don't have to worry about any of that and because for non alcohol, for, for a, for a sober person pairing food with non alcoholic beverages traditionally is like a sparkling water. I mean that's where it goes, right? Or like, you know, maybe a root beer every once in a while, but you don't want 72 grams of sugar every time you want to. You know, being able to now have that for me is just really incredible. And I think I speak for a large portion of the non drinking community that like having something that tastes as good. You know, I haven't had a regular beer in 21 years but like the, I would argue to say better my experience with your beers and definitely trumps the what I remember of my experience with regular beers. Right. Like every time I buy a new, a new flavor of your beer, I'm like, holy smokes. Like this is so good. And I give it to my wife because my wife drinks beers and she drinks wine. I'm like, try this. And she's like, why do I have to try every one of your beers? And I'm like, because it's so fucking good. It's so good. So you guys are truly. I just wanted to say thank you from really, you know, from me because it's given, it's, it's now allowed me to have the experience of drinking a beer with food specifically in like the spring, summer, fall barbecues where like I, you know, I like, I put like three or four athletic brews in the cooler when we have friends over and like I'm in the, I'm in the mix and you know, like you, I could say with every cell in my body not drinking for me, like I thought I was not going to be able to have fun anymore. I have so much fun. I don't think that there's ever like I not only have so much fun, but I don't have to worry about decisions that I have, you know, like that I would make had I been seven beers down and looking for other things, you know. And so I just think that you've really, you, you've, you've really made life for non drinkers just more awesome man.
- [34:14]
Bill Shufelt
Thank you so much.
- [34:15]
Michael Chernow
You have.
- [34:16]
Bill Shufelt
I mean I, that means the world to me. Like that is like literally what it's all about for me. And I, I can say too when I stopped drinking, that's like when in many ways like the light went on in my life, not went out in my life and is exactly that moment where I want people like yourself or like me or anyone whether they drink or not. I want that Line to be totally washed out and inconsequential if people want to be drinking or not in any moment. But I want people to be so proud of what they have in their hand. It has a label out. People are begging for people to ask them about it, hoping they ask about it, not, not trying to hide it, get it into a cup, anonymize it. And so yeah, that was like even going like well speaking to like the beer with or without alcohol. One of the most notable moments this journey to me was chef Chris Cosentino, who's like a very notable Bay Area chef.
- [35:10]
Michael Chernow
He's been love that guy.
- [35:11]
Bill Shufelt
Shows old friend personality. And he called my cell phone out of the blue in February 2020 after he discovered athletic was like I just had to pick up the phone. And he was like this beer without the alcohol is like the best expression of ingredients I've ever tasted. And so like that connecting that dot and John, our co founder says that all the time that in many ways he thinks he can get the ingredients to express better without the alcohol. Like his alcohol is such a high concentration of the calories of any given beer, but going to like the impact and also like people drinking or not and comfort with it. Even the goat. So going into the time before the business why I stopped drinking, I did like like on the personal side, like put in the work to, you know, make sure I was taking my choice seriously and I wasn't going to just like default right back into drinking. And so, you know, I did go and like spend time in the rooms and I think a does a great service for so many people. It gave me more self reflection than I'd probably had in the entirety of my whole life before. So that gave me like great perspective and really good appreciation for like just like the spectrum of people who are like going through that decision of stopping drinking for all different reasons and all different levels of comfort. And for that reason I've never marketed to recovering alcoholics. I just want to be there is like a really high quality choice so people can make that choice or get there in their own time frame. But I don't want to tempt them. I don't want them to see digital ads or we're not advertising on like the Hazelden website or anything. It's like we want to, we want to be there for people who feel comfortable going to bars and drinking. And then more than anything the so in that a lot of people saw like friends and family and stuff, saw me get sober and they'd potentially been thinking about it or wondering themselves and they're like, oh, like Bill did this, like, let me ask him about it. And some of those interactions where I'd like talk to one person, help them get to their first meeting or think through what it meant socially for them to stop drinking and really that no one's going to care. Just try it out. And I helped like three or four people get over that hurdle of like either cutting back or stopping their drinking. And that one on one work was like the most impactful, like life change or impact I'd ever had on anyone's life at that point in my life. And starting athletic and. But that was all like one on one. It's not scalable. I think the work that A is doing is awesome and great in the community is such a needed thing in the world. But like what me and my wife identified as the barrier was like the enormous stigmatization around that decision. And also that there were no products that would help you just normalize that decision. Like. And so I think honestly my wife said this before me, to me, but if we could destigmatize that choice, like we'd probably have a positive impact on tens of millions of people if we could just make moderation, delicious, well marketed, accessible. And then me and John have been talking about since day one that there is now going to be generations of people turning 21 where they don't know there's supposed to be a stigma between the left and right side of the menu. And like, that is I think, what it's all about.
- [38:34]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, I mean, and it's, it's, it's pretty incredible to see not only what you've done, but just the, the kind of movement towards not having to get hammered. Right. Like every restaurant that has any kind of relevance has a legitimate non alcoholic mocktail menu as, as deep and thoughtful and mindful and crafty and creative as the alcoholic cocktails. So for, you know, and I've seen the full spectrum because I got sober a long time ago and it's just pretty cool to be able to see that and to know that like, you know, what I've suggested to people also that you know, aren't necessarily looking to stop drinking or don't need to stop drinking. But hey, like, if you're going to have five beers, throw in a non alcoholic beer in between the first and the third and like it's, you're, it's gonna, it's gonna offer the, it's gonna offer the same thing except you're not gonna Be five years down. You know what I'm saying?
- [39:46]
Bill Shufelt
Like, well, I've found, similar to people is like, try doing it one day of the week, like, where you might have had two beers on a Wednesday, have two athletics in that moment, and just think about it on Thursday and, like, guarantee, like, even when I'd have one or two beers, the frequency of missing that next morning workout went up like, 50%. And, like, the chance I'd, like, eat a bad meal late at the end of that night and stuff, and it just all cascades. Like, it's probably a dessert, probably no sleep, probably a missed workout, probably a subpar day at work the next day.
- [40:22]
Michael Chernow
You know, it's so funny because with creatures of habit, my whole entire thought process was, if I could put a healthy, easy, inexpensive meal in front of people first thing in the morning, the chances of them making just generally better decisions throughout the rest of the day, the barometer on that just goes up. Right. It's like, bad decisions make bad decisions. Good decisions could make great decisions, you know, and I. That's kind of just the way I think about our business, where it's like, hey, like, let me just throw a flagpole here for you. Just choose this over that. And once you get into the winning mindset, because, like, you. Right. Like, having an athletic brewing for someone who's, like, on the fence on whether or not they want to drink alcohol or not anymore is a win. Grabbing the athletic is a win over grabbing the alcoholic beer. It's just a win.
- [41:23]
Bill Shufelt
Yeah.
- [41:23]
Michael Chernow
You know, and it has to be,
- [41:24]
Bill Shufelt
like, easy, accessible, not, like, such a hard habit to keep.
- [41:28]
Michael Chernow
Right.
- [41:29]
Bill Shufelt
Like, yeah. Whether it's, like, your favorite bar and restaurant, having good options, like, availability is key, or, like, having something you can literally just grab in the morning and, like, it's not a huge hurdle. You don't have to take 45 minutes to cook it.
- [41:43]
Michael Chernow
Yeah, man. I'm like, I'm just, you know, I'm so excited to be able to sit across the table from you, man.
- [41:51]
Bill Shufelt
Oh, thank you.
- [41:52]
Michael Chernow
It. The. The. The world of entrepreneurship is not easy. And you're a living testament to someone who. I think there's. There's millions and millions of people that are sitting in jobs that they're just not excited about, and you decided to rip off the band aid and take a leap, and you've created something massive and incredible, and it's just like, you know, these things happen. And I think more and more people are going to benefit from these stories being told where at the end of the Day the leap is where the magic really started for sure. Right.
- [42:43]
Bill Shufelt
And it's, I thought it was all about money and some of the best years of my life were when I had absolutely no money and I was, you know, 15 years into my career at that point. And so I really appreciate that people like yourself who provide the blueprint and the inspiration too. And like, you know, people are busy. It's like that person you describe in their job, like probably has like 15 minutes a day to think about that type of stuff or transition. And you know, because you're so busy between all the things you have to get done and then the things you have to do after work, the to do list, the family, people like you, putting digestible pathways out there. And inspiration I think is such a great service too.
- [43:25]
Michael Chernow
I want to, I, I actually before we, we close, I want to ask you one more question because I do think that this is, this is. So you have a company of, you have 300 people working in and you're married and you have kids. Have you found a balance in your life between work and family?
- [43:52]
Bill Shufelt
It's, it's the weirdest thing. And add in a newborn. We've got a five week old right now too.
- [43:57]
Michael Chernow
Let's go.
- [43:57]
Bill Shufelt
And I was reflecting with. So my wife and I, her birthday is coming up in a few days and I mistimed the cake. So the cake came early. And so me and her were like sitting, eating a piece of cake and it was peaceful last night just by ourselves talking and I was like, this feels like weird balance. I can't believe we even have this moment right now. And I will say I've worked really hard to get things in the right processes and places. And there's a period of entrepreneurship where it's, it's probably impossible to have good balance. And you know, you're doing the accounting on Friday night, you got to be there somewhere 5am on Saturday and then it just goes 24 7. But now in my life and I like, there's definitely all different stages of my life. Like one of the most productive stages of my financial career was waking up at 4:45 boxing with a great group of people who inspired me on the fitness side. Then I was at the desk 6am to 6pm with people who inspired me on the career side and challenged me intellectually. And so like I had a structure of my day then. Now what works for me and my family is, you know, I try to take care of all these different areas of wellness in my life and make sure it's structured and calendared and repeatable. And right now what that looks like for me to find balance is I work. I work out every day. I try to make it before I cook breakfast for the family and walk the dogs. If I don't, I have to slot it somewhere else. Like I never miss a day. And in the worst workout days, I've got a treadmill under my desk at work. So I'll just like do an hour while I do email. But it's exercising and then I cook breakfast for my family every day. Drop my son at school. I walk my dogs in the morning too. So that's like very good early family time. Work extremely hard, 9:30 to 4, which me 10 years ago would have like absolutely laughed at that workday. But that is about the amount of time I can be extremely productive and focused before I start to burn and spin and just being realistic, like I can't go 10 hours before I get very unproductive. The last 3 hours of 10 would be very unproductive. So with you on that unplug, get home, try to tire out my four year old, playing sports, do dinner with my family, bath, bedtime stories, get them all to bed. And then 7pm on I lock in for another two or three hours of like really intense project work, email inbox, getting set up for the day ahead and just getting in the right moment. But that is a very productive block of time for me where I've got things like these are the must have to get done before today. This is what's slowing down my team
- [46:37]
Michael Chernow
to 7 to 10.
- [46:38]
Bill Shufelt
Yeah. At night. And I never used to be a night person. And work, that's kind of a new thing in this stage of life. And then I just shift gears at the end too where I meditate first for at least five minutes and then I switch over to usually a book for like 20 minutes and usually fall asleep pretty hard at the end of that. If it's a very stressful week. I tend to watch like British countryside murders and like really shift out of it if I can't even like handle reading. But like I gotta have that like get out of work. So I, I meditate, I do a lot of gratitude at the end of the day and then I get into a different zone of thinking and reading and that helps me like totally put the workday behind and get to sleep and get a good seven hours of sleep usually most nights.
- [47:25]
Michael Chernow
So, so, okay, so, so you, you, I agree with you so immensely. On the 9th for me it's 9:30 to 5:30. That's like the chunk of. Yeah, that's the chunk. And like you, I would have laughed at that 10 years ago, 100%. I would have been like, dude, you're losing, you're losing it. There's no way. But I've actually, unless it's absolutely necessary. At 8:30 I've got a quick checklist. I look at my calendar, I make sure that my emails have not like, there's no like red alarms. And that's pretty much it. Like I go through a few things, check my slack, check my email, check my calendar, prepare myself for the next day. But I don't dip back into work because I have found, I mean I used to, I mean it was bad for years and I do think that it is required, unfortunately, in the first probably five to seven years of creating a business or at least stepping into entrepreneurship, it's going to be a, it's going to be a, it's going to be a grind. Yeah, it's going to be a grind.
- [48:42]
Bill Shufelt
And it, it almost necessarily has to be because if like the, the company is the reflection of the founders and you've got to be involved in all of it and they're John and I've always tried to delegate and empower our teammates and it's been so amazing how they've grown into all those roles. So a lot of things, like there's, you know, there are some departments I may not talk to for two or three weeks now and like we just have such great people running it and everything's on track and you know, I know they'll get my attention if they need me. So yeah.
- [49:12]
Michael Chernow
You know, I also will say that the evolution of an entrepreneur not only grows in terms of skill set and just getting better at winging it because look, at the end of the day we are the, you know, we're great wingers. Right. We wing a lot. But I do think the caliber of help you surround yourself with also evolves. Right. Not only in the skill set or the ability of the people that you surround yourself with, but our ability to actually let the reins go changes.
- [49:52]
Bill Shufelt
Yeah. And if, if as our company grows, if I'm still like trying to run a department or be the leader of a department, that means that department hasn't outgrown me, which is probably a problem. And I am constantly on like, I'm on this learning journey and self development path and I'm always tweaking all my different areas of wellness and trying to optimize and move forward. But Part of that growth is in my profession and trying to like learn what does the company need from me in the road ahead. A lot of like founder friends I've been friendly with along the journey kind of got stuck at being awesome at one stage and didn't want to let it go. And the company really needs you to keep growing into that next stage and like have other people either do that or the company outgrows that totally. But that's been a big thing for me and John is like our learning journey also surrounding ourselves with the right people who are going to help us grow to that next stage and whether that's like digesting content, reading books, attending conferences, finding mentors on the road ahead. But yeah, trying to keep like my education going too.
- [50:59]
Michael Chernow
Last piece for the guy or gal listening to the podcast right now, that is sitting at the finance job and just like you said, you know, your wife would watch you kind of just like slog into, into the house at night. What do you say to that person who's just, who knows that they're not in the right place?
- [51:22]
Bill Shufelt
It totally depends on the person too. Like I, I have a very high risk tolerance. Like in reality the, the likelihood of a, you know, it depends what people's goals are. So if you are quitting a well paying finance job in hopes of a financial outcome, you have to risk adjust that financial outcome and make it very improbable like it is. I've seen so many great founders and businesses that just didn't get the 10 out of 10 things right. And lucky that like so many businesses have. So I think it's. But I've also seen so many people quit nine to five jobs or whatever the version of the corporate job is, and not have a big financial success, but embark an amazing lifelong learning journey and find out that there are 100,000 companies in the private world, out there in the small mid sized businesses and there is such a big economy out there. I know in like at colleges and stuff they talk about only the companies that are on CNBC. And you know, 20 years ago everyone wanted to work at Lehman, JP Morgan, Bear Stearns, whatever. Ten years ago it started to switch to like Google, Facebook, everything. Now it's probably all the AI companies. But like while they talk about 100 companies on mainstream news, there are a hundred thousand great companies out there in the world that you can make a great life in. So if you just like take a look around, work on yourself, develop your skill set, like, I mean part of life is taking those chances and Growing and discovering what's out there too. I, you know, whether Athletic was successful or not, the conversations and people I've met along the road have been awesome and I've learned way more than I ever thought and met people I never ever would have thought I would have been able to. It's just like really broadened my horizon.
- [53:12]
Michael Chernow
Bill, you're awesome man. Thank you so much for joining us on the pod. Where can people find you and Athletic Brewing? Where would you send them to to go explore?
- [53:23]
Bill Shufelt
Cool. Thank you so much as this is an absolute blast. We're just@athletical brewing.com Athletic Brewing on all socials, Athletic Brewing on LinkedIn and stuff. So yeah, but yeah, if you are contemplating your own switch, starting your own conc. You know, John and I are big believers of. I think it's a Robert Noyce quote of like restocking the stream that you fished. Like we got some great advice from people on the way. So my email is just bill@athletical brewing.com too if anyone's contemplating their own journey. Definitely I'll do my best to respond.
- [53:51]
Michael Chernow
Awesome man. I'm going to leave you with a couple of protein bars to take with you on the road.
- [53:55]
Bill Shufelt
Awesome. Really excited to try this.
- [53:58]
Michael Chernow
So that's the chocolate peanut butter banger. Definitely the fan fave.
- [54:02]
Bill Shufelt
Very cool.
- [54:02]
Michael Chernow
And this is the cookie dough dazzler.
- [54:04]
Bill Shufelt
And so these have creatine in them too, right?
- [54:06]
Michael Chernow
Yeah. 20 grams of plant based protein, 3 grams of creatine, no seed oils, no sugar, alcohols, gluten free, dairy free. Just really good. No batting. No, no crappy ingredients, real foods.
- [54:18]
Bill Shufelt
I love it. All the, all the protein and a little mental sharpness during the day.
- [54:23]
Michael Chernow
Yeah man, it's a good, it's a good. I wanted to create a protein bar. Getting into the protein bar category, protein bar category is not easy but I wanted to create one that was unique that I could actually eat every day without like rushing to the bathroom or feeling bad about it. And you know, I think I made a good one.
- [54:43]
Bill Shufelt
Yeah, I'm excited to try it. I mean the world's big out there. If you, if you believe in it. There's opportunity out there for sure.
- [54:49]
Michael Chernow
Awesome man. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [54:51]
Bill Shufelt
Thank you so much. Thanks for everything you do.
- [54:53]
Michael Chernow
Of course you heard it here, friends. If you are looking for a delicious, tasty, non alcoholic beverage and beer is something that you enjoy, I highly recommend checking out Athletic Brewing. I remember when they launched and I can't believe the, the success and the growth and the scale of that, of Athletic Brewing, the company. And it's so. It's so cool to be able to have the founder here with us to share about that. And also if you are on the fence about your drinking consumption and you think, hey, you know, it might not be a bad idea for me to take a little break or cut down a little bit, or maybe you just want to put the plug in the jug entirely. Athletic Brewing is an awesome, awesome alternative. It just is. It tastes as good, if not better than your favorite beer. And that I guarantee and promise. I guarantee and promise you it does. And there's so many different varieties to choose from. So if you are a lager person, if you're an IPA person, if you're a Kolsch person, if you're. I mean, there's just so many. There's. And I was going through the site earlier today and I was like, wow, there's so many I haven't tried. So I'm excited to do that. But I love having great founders on the podcast to talk about the, the world and the life of entrepreneurship. And I'm sure you guys got some really great value here. So do me a favor, it would mean the world if you'd share the podcast. Share the podcast, throw it on your social media channel, tag us, share it with a friend, share it with your family. That is how we grow this thing. And if you're feeling oh so generous, give us a five star rating and a fantastic review. Hit the subscribe button. You know where to find us. See you soon, fan. Peace.