Why Modern Men Feel Lost with Vinny Brusco | Kreatures of Habit

Summary

---

Podcast Summary – Kreatures Of Habit Podcast

Episode: Why Modern Men Feel Lost with Vinny Brusco
Host: Michael Chernow
Guest: Vinny Brusco (Founder, Agora Social Club)
Date: May 27, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the contemporary struggles of masculinity, the importance of male community, fatherhood, vulnerability, and the role of faith. Vinny Brusco, founder of Agora Social Club, joins Michael Chernow to explore why the "modern man" feels lost—and how men can regain a sense of purpose and connection.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Modern Masculinity

• Social Expectations & Lost Identity:
  • Vinny reflects that men have “muted the need of men in society” and lost their essence by conforming to cultural norms (01:34–01:47).
  • “Somewhere along the lines we’ve lost the ability to think and learn about ourselves because we’ve conformed to social norms and expectations.”
    — Vinny Brusco [01:47]
• Cultural Stereotypes:
  • Both discuss how media portrays fathers and masculine figures as buffoons, ignoring healthy, successful, loving men.
    — “Dad’s always overweight and dumb and goofy... what about the dad who’s got it all together?”
    — Vinny Brusco [02:44–03:19]

2. The Agora Social Club – Rethinking Men's Groups

• Breaking Stereotypes:
  • Vinny discusses how his social club goes beyond outdated “cigars and whiskey” images, focusing instead on wellness, breath work, ruck walks, real talk, and genuine community (00:08, 08:20).
• True Masculinity:
  • “It’s not about who’s masculine and who’s not. There’s just bad versions of it. If we always just default to the negative stereotype, then we’re just as wrong as anybody else.”
    — Vinny Brusco [10:43]

3. Vulnerability & Emotional Honesty

• Redefining Strength:
  • Vinny opens up about expressing emotion with his family: “There’s times my kids see me cry every day. I’m a big crier... I’m not afraid to show up in these different versions of myself.” [10:48]
  • Michael affirms: “What brings me the most joy in my life is being at home with my wife and kids, the fireplace going... we’re just there together.” [11:58]
• Finding Peace in Chaos:
  • Vinny recalls a moment with his sick child: “This is exactly where I want to be right now. There’s nowhere else...”
    — Vinny Brusco [14:08]

4. Fatherhood as a Mirror & Catalyst

• Expanding Love:
  • Both reflect on how each child increases their capacity for love:
    “All your brother’s going to do is expand my capacity of love. There’s no bottom to this thing.”
    — Vinny Brusco [17:05]
• Self-Reflection and Grace:
  • Vinny: “They [children] are the most amazing mirror into the self.” [20:28]
  • Recounts his daughter’s drawing about “leaving childhood” and how children help adults rediscover the magic and possibility in life [21:03].

5. Routines, Connection & Spiritual Practice

• Family Rituals:
  • Nighttime prayers and tucking routines—especially meaningful with his children to foster openness and connection [22:56].
• Faith Journey:
  • Vinny shares a transformative commitment to Christianity (Dec 2025), moving from vague spirituality to “recognizing Jesus, recognizing the Lord, recognizing God.” [23:57–24:21]
  • Both discuss the challenge—and reward—of surrender and cultivating a relationship with God beyond rote prayers [28:08–31:00].

6. Wrestling with Faith, Doubt, and Authority

• Conversations on Surrender:
  • Both share their struggles with the “surrender” aspect of faith, especially for those with issues around authority or self-reliance [26:41–27:12].
  • Memorable quote: “The definition of faith is... right now, right in this very moment, it might not be tangibly real. So you’ve got to believe that there is a possibility.”
    — Michael Chernow [44:14]

7. Men, Faith, and the “Solo Mission”

• Individual Path:
  • Michael grapples with making his faith public and visible in his family where his wife is not interested:
    “It always is a solo mission... it has to be a solo mission because it’s your mission. It can’t be...”
    — Vinny Brusco [48:53]

8. Masculinity as a Balance of Energies

• Blend of Masculine & Feminine:
  • Both recognize powerful, “energetically strong” feminine energy—using childbirth as an example—arguing that masculinity should integrate sensitivity, strength, and vulnerability [63:34–64:27].
    • “Masculinity is a blend... a blend of being able to tap into that feminine energy and be energetically strong.”
      — Michael Chernow [62:28–62:46]

9. Why These Conversations Matter

• Encouraging Deeper Dialogue:
  • Michael: “These are the conversations that more men should be having with other men and probably want to have, but have this weird fear around opening up...” [59:45]
  • Vinny: “There’s no place that creates this atmosphere where you can have real, honest conversations... and that’s what I came to.” [60:39]
  • Both stress that this depth is what truly builds men, not just “water cooler” talk.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Somewhere along the lines we’ve lost the ability to think and learn about ourselves because we’ve conformed to social norms and expectations.”
  — Vinny Brusco [01:47]

• “All your brother’s going to do is expand my capacity of love. There’s no bottom to this thing.”
  — Vinny Brusco [17:05]

• “The magic goes away for some reason. And I think that’s something that they’ve [his children] brought back into my life, is reintroducing the magic of everything that’s literally around us at all times.”
  — Vinny Brusco [21:03]

• “You talk and you listen... it’s a two-way street.”
  — Michael Chernow & Vinny Brusco on prayer as relationship [30:38–30:41]

• “When you could have those conversations, it’s not about who’s masculine and who’s not... And if we always just default to the negative stereotype, then we’re just as wrong as anybody else.”
  — Vinny Brusco [10:43]

• “Men want to have these conversations, they just don’t know how to. And it’s weird ... But the water cooler conversation wears thin after a while ... once you start having these conversations, this is all I want to talk about.”
  — Vinny Brusco [60:39–61:39]

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:08–01:47: Vinny explains the mission of Agora Social Club and why men are “lost.”
• 02:44–03:19: On controlled, stoic, self-aware masculinity and poor media representations.
• 10:48–11:31: Sharing vulnerability and moments of peace as marks of “real” masculinity.
• 17:05: On the infinite capacity for love as a father.
• 23:57–24:21: Vinny’s commitment to faith and transition from “spiritual but not religious” to Christianity.
• 28:08–31:00: Prayer as an active, conversational relationship with God.
• 44:14–45:21: The struggle to rationalize faith, and “hedging your bet” vs. true belief.
• 59:45–61:39: The importance of creating spaces for real conversations among men.

---

Conclusion

This episode embodies an honest and multi-faceted look at what men are truly experiencing today—loneliness, the shame around discussing masculinity, parental struggles, vulnerability, and faith. Vinny and Michael advocate for male connection through authentic conversations that blend vulnerability, spirituality, and aspiration. They urge men to move beyond stereotypes and superficial talk and lean into the hard, real, and loving aspects of life. The episode ends with a call to action: “tell the stories that count.”

---

Transcript

[Michael Chernow]

You have a social club that's built around the modern day man. Like, let's hear about the modern day man. You know, how do you combat that?

[Vinnie Brusco]

So I think first, the word social club has this like negative connotation to it. Automatically people think it's like cigars and playing dominoes and, you know, drinking whiskey. And I'm like, no, no. We do breath work in dad's groups and men's groups and ruck walks and 5Ks. And it's all health and wellness. When we're all sitting around talking, it's really about like the real conversation, the real life stuff. And when people bring up the idea of masculinity. Toxic. Everybody can be toxic. It doesn't matter what you are or where you come from or your gender, your whatever it is, humans are toxic.

[Michael Chernow]

And how do we start telling the story that it's okay to just be cool with like the love in the world? Like it's okay to just like take the weekend off of everything.

[Vinnie Brusco]

You have to have that little taste of that little sliver of peace in heaven and go, ah, there it is. There's still this moment of stillness that we can feel, we can see, we can tap into. That's like, oh, there it is. Even if it's for like a glimpse. And when you could tap into it, then you can kind of look for it or feel it in other capacities and other facets and go, okay, now I can experience more of this.

[Michael Chernow]

An entrepreneur straight out of New York City.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Michael Chernow.

[Michael Chernow]

What's cracking? What is, is the modern day man

[Vinnie Brusco]

lost? The modern day man is lost. Wow. I think that we've, we've muted the need of men in society.

[Michael Chernow]

Like what does that mean?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Just in a sense that like we, we've, we've, we've lost the essence of who men were, right? Like we had this, this old stoics of grappling and thinking and learning and growing and then just whether it be due to society or whatever it is, we've muted that, right? We fall cultural norms and expectations of getting a job and working this and you know, it's all well and good, but somewhere along the lines we've lost the ability to think and learn about ourselves because we've conformed to social norms and expectations. I think in that loss, we've lost the essence of what a man is to some degree. And I think to get back to that, it's about building community of like minded people, finding guys that you can have deep, meaningful conversations, wrestle with these ideas and these Things we struggle with as mental. And, you know, that's. I think that's. That's the next phase of this.

[Michael Chernow]

So when you say getting back to what a man is or should be or was.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

What is that version of a man?

[Vinnie Brusco]

I think controlled. I think stoic. Has a really deep understanding of the self. Knowing the self, knowing how to respond versus react to what life hands you. You know, we're so quickly to react, whether it be to traffic, our kids, our spouses, our jobs. We just, you know, societally and based off of stereotypes, you see it. Right. And then you have the idea of, like, what television promotes. Right. Dad's always overweight and dumb and goofy and, you know, doesn't have a shit together. You know, what about the dad who's got it all together? The dad who's, like, really crushing it.

[Michael Chernow]

Right.

[Vinnie Brusco]

The dad who's healthy. Right. You don't see that on the cultural side of things. So I think that getting back to that is. Is key. But it starts with the self. It starts with learning about yourself, knowing yourself on. On deeper levels.

[Michael Chernow]

Can you give a good example of, like, what.

[Vinnie Brusco]

What it was?

[Michael Chernow]

Like, can you point to a figure of, like, what a man.

[Vinnie Brusco]

What comes up for me is Teddy Roosevelt. Like, you think of someone like that who is, you know, who had so much adversity in his life but persevered through it. Right. Pushed through it, stood for something and stood by what he stood for. Right. But, yeah, I mean, I think that people of that type of older mindset, and then you dissolve into, like, the 60s, 70s, and, like, you know, then we hear toxic masculinity now and people manipulating their. Their power, which is obviously a negative thing across the board. I don't think anyone would agree to that. Um, but I think going back to that way of being where you understand yourself, you push yourself, you persevere through difficulties and struggles, that's who kind of just comes to mind off the top of my head.

[Michael Chernow]

So you're the founder of Agora Social Club, and. And in Agora, your plan is to really help men sort of get together and. And connect in a deep way.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Through an experience or an environment that makes it comfortable.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Right. Where there's no judgment and. But there's a mission.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

So I would imagine that the conversation of masculinity comes up a lot in your life.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah. Right.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, I mean, it's what you've kind of built your. Not necessarily masculinity, but sort of like this idea that men have lost their way and how can I, as a human being,

[Vinnie Brusco]

be.

[Michael Chernow]

Be an advocate or someone at the. At the front of the charge that's saying there's nothing wrong with masculinity. Right. Like, I was having this conversation with a friend this morning early, working out, and we were just talking about that word masculinity. And, like, you got to be kind of, like, quiet about saying that word. Like, you got to look and see who's around when you say the word masculinity. It's like. Like, it's like a bad word. Right. And it's so sad because I know for me as a kid, masculinity was never a bad word. It wasn't. It was an admirable word. It was a word of, like, you aspire to be a masculine guy. Right. Like, that was like, what I wanted as a young kid, you know, looking up at some, you know, like, for me, masculinity probably in those days was like, you know, the ultimate warrior.

[Vinnie Brusco]

You know what I mean? Absolutely.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, yeah. Just strapping, tough, big, strong guys that were just like, you know, dominating life. And so, you know, but it's just.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It is.

[Michael Chernow]

It is such a controversial conversation topic.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Today, the word masculinity. Right. And. And there's no controversy around the word femininity.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

At all. No one, you know, get squeamish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, you know, they say a woman is a feminine, you know, but when you say a man is masculine today, it is definitely like, oh, yeah, what do you mean by that? And I just don't. Look, there is no doubt there are many a man in that. In this. In this new version of masculinity that is sort of leading that new version of masculinity charge that I honestly think are goofballs.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah, of course.

[Michael Chernow]

Goofballs, of course. And quite frankly, disgusting. And I have zero interest in what they say and how they say it and what they do, and especially that they predicate on these younger kids, these younger teenage boys.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

That are. They're teaching the wrong thing.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah. 100%.

[Michael Chernow]

But I hate the fact that the word masculinity has been completely exploited and is now looked at as, you know, a word that you got to whisper.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah. So what.

[Michael Chernow]

What is. What is. Like, how is that in your life as a founder at a business owner, where you've built this. I. This, and you're kind of shameless about it? You don't. You don't run from the. The conversation. Right. Like, when people say, you know, oh, you Are you have a social club that's.

[Vinnie Brusco]

That's.

[Michael Chernow]

That's built around the modern day man? Like, let's hear about the modern day man.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

You know? Yeah. How do you combat that?

[Vinnie Brusco]

So I think first, the word social club has this, like, negative connotation to it. Automatically people think it's like cigars and playing dominoes and, you know, drinking whiskey. And, you know, you could always kind of separate the two because people ask, what do you guys drink? Like, cigars and stuff? Smoke and drink cigar drink? I'm like, no, no. We do breath work and dad's groups and men's groups and ruck walks and 5Ks, and it's all health and wellness. And you get to separate the two there. And, you know, having the conversation with guys, you realize there's a real need for this. You know, it's funny, in the group, masculinity doesn't come up, right? When we're all sitting around talking. It's really about, like, the real conversation, the real life stuff. And, you know, growing up, my dad, we were kind of talking a little bit earlier. Like, he was very masculine, but I saw him cry a lot. Like, he was a vet, he was a cop in one of the hardest precincts in New York. But he was always very masculine. Like, I never looked him, like, seeing him cry. I had a good role model of what masculine was, and not in this. You know, there's the ultimate warrior, Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, body dysmorphia. Reasons now, right? As guys that we get, like, dude, I'm not big enough. I'm not strong enough. Look at her role models as kids. But I grew up with that in my household, so I had a really good relationship with what a man was, right? But in those groups and those dynamics, man, like, the word doesn't come up. It's just guys having real conversation. And when people bring up the idea of masculinity and toxic, everybody can be toxic. It doesn't matter what you are or where you come from or your gender, your whatever it is, humans are toxic, right? And it just goes back to the idea of understanding yourself and really finding those guys around you that you could really be vulnerable with and have conversations and walk around, go, man, I'm not alone in this. Like, I'm struggling with. With whatever it is, being a dad, being a husband, being a bit whatever it is, life. And that's, to me, true masculinity. Ripping apart the walls, breaking down the walls, peeling back the onion and getting to the deeper self. As a community and as an individual, and when you could have those conversations, it's not about who's masculine and who's not. And to your point, there's so many bad actors in the space, and it's manipulative and it's. You know, that's where I could see people being like, oh, it's a horrible thing. It's like. It's not. There's just bad versions of it. And like anything else in the world, there's bad versions of it. And if we always just default to the negative stereotype, then we're just as wrong as anybody else.

[Michael Chernow]

Why do you. Do you think women look for masculine men?

[Vinnie Brusco]

I think women look for the energy of true masculinity. You know, like, I think about, like, the dynamic in my house with my wife. It's, you know, there's times where I need to cry. There's times my kids see me cry every day. I'm a big crier. But, you know, I'm not afraid to. To show up in these different versions of myself, you know, and if I have to be stoic and strong, great. If I need to be crying in front of everybody, like, I was. It was over Christmas break. I was sitting at the breakfast table. My kids were in the living room. I just started crying. And my wife looks over and she's like, you okay? I was like, I am at so much peace right now, right? And I think that's what a lot of men are looking for. I think a lot of men are looking for that peace, that internal peace.

[Michael Chernow]

What. What inspired that? Those tears?

[Vinnie Brusco]

It was just being in a. In my home with my kids, sitting in the living room with the Christmas tree on some vibey music, eating breakfast. Like, it wasn't Christmas Day. It was just around the season, and I was just like, the waters were still. You know, everything was just still. And, yeah, it was. It was just a moment. I think that's what a lot of guys are really looking for. And it's hard when the world is kind of peppering you with all the reasons to not be at peace.

[Michael Chernow]

Totally, man. It's so. I'm so happy you said that, because I am shameless about saying that. What brings me the most joy in my life is being at home with my wife and kids, the fireplace going. We just finished dinner, and we're just there together. That is where. And. And that, with a little bit of a volume up, is on vacation with my wife and kids, where I'm on the beach. I'm lying next to My wife, my kids are playing in the sand or in the water, and that's where I want to be, man. That. And there's. And, and, and we're. We're led to believe that that's not the place to be.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Because we gotta work, we gotta. We gotta. We gotta. We gotta hustle. And the truth is, like, we're supposed to really have moments of like, absolute peace and joy and love. Like, at the end of the day, it is about the love.

[Vinnie Brusco]

100%, dude.

[Michael Chernow]

It's about love. Yeah, it's about love. And it's. It's like really hard to. To. To feel that the. The power and the energy of love when we're constantly in a state of fight or flight worry because we're constantly, like, distracted by more and more and

[Vinnie Brusco]

more and more and more and more. It's just more, more, more.

[Michael Chernow]

And how do we start telling the story that it's okay to just be cool with, like, the love in the room? Like, it's okay to just, like, take the weekend off of everything? Just really, like, how do we start telling that story? Because I know that's the right story to tell.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I think it has to be experiential. I think you can't. You know, you could lead the horse to water, right. You have to kind of experience it on your own. You know, you have to have that little taste of that little sliver of peace in heaven and go, oh, there it is. I remember we. My. My son, he had the flu, I think it was. And it was like a snowy Saturday. And we, like, you know, took him to PM Pediatric. It's snowing. And I remember merging onto the highway and looking over my wife and like, it's the most inconvenient moment, right? It's like snowing. My kid's sick. Who'? Fever? I'm like, this is chaos. But then we got in the car, like, we merged on the highway, and like, the snow was falling. I looked at my wife, I looked back at kids. I was like, this is exactly where. Where I want to be right now. I don't want to be anywhere else in the world. Like, there's nowhere else. Driving on 95 with a sick kid who's got, you know, you know, the flu. And it was like, this is exactly what it's all about. Even in the chaos of it, right? You have the piece of like, the Christmas season with the fireplace, right? That's the beauty. Like, oh, yeah, that's a beautiful piece. But then, like, in that chaos of baseball practice, and running around, you know, like, it's just. It's chaos. There's still this moment of stillness that we can feel and we can see, we can tap into. That's like, oh, there it is. Even if it's for, like, a glimpse. And when you could tap into it, then you can kind of look for it or feel it in other capacities and other facets and go, okay, now I can experience more of this. So I don't think it's about telling the story as much as it is just letting other people know that it's out there and it's available and it's not in the hustle and bustle. And listen, I fall very victim to that of, you know, how do I stay grateful but aspirational? How do I stay grounded but then still want more? Right? Because we live in a society that's like, yeah, there's money, there's bills, there's a mortgage. There's all these things that are real. Like, you can't pretend like they're not. But besides that, there's something else to all of this. That once you start to peel back that onion and you start to feel it, you're like, oh, this is the real game that's being played. And it becomes like, once you wake up to it, you. You would never want to go back to anything else.

[Michael Chernow]

Fatherhood is.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Is.

[Michael Chernow]

Is a real polarization of being a man. Right. It shows you. It shows you very, very clearly. Like, how much of a man are you?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

How are you leading these kids?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

How do you look at. At. At fatherhood?

[Vinnie Brusco]

I had this moment, and I. I thought I always messed this up, but I'm gonna try to get it right this time. If I can look at myself the way my children look at me, and I could love myself the way I love my children, I understand how God sees me, and that's how I look at being a father.

[Michael Chernow]

I'm gonna. If I can look at myself the way my children look at me, and if I could love myself the way

[Vinnie Brusco]

I love my children, then I understand how God looks at me because it's unconditional, Right? When my. When my daughter. When my son was being born, my daughter came up to me and she said, are you gonna love him more? And I looked at. I was like, no, all your brother's gonna do is expand my capacity of love. There's no. There's no bottom to this thing. It's amazing because we think in, like, this 3D, tangible, finite world, but then all of a sudden, you Tap into the capacity of love. You're like, oh my, I don't even know where it ends. And that's something that's so beautiful. Heart wrenching. Because it's like, then you watch them grow up and you're dealing with all the other nonsense, but it's so beautiful. And you know, I just try to stay. I try to remember that as often as possible. I try to remember that. You know, I'm not great. I do the morning routine with the kids to get them out of the house. Half the time I'm just like, get in the car, we gotta go, we're late. You know. But they know at the end of the day that I love them beyond words. Right? They know that there's a feeling to that. So, yeah, I just, I try to lean into the. To the good of it as much as I can. And I'm not perfect. Not even close.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, I want to talk about IMA Health. Ima Health is a supplement that I've been using for about 18 months now, literally since they've launched. And I use their daily essentials and their daily longevity every single day. It is a ritual for me. And if you know me, you know that ritual and habit and routine are what keeps me going. Imaid has 90 different ingredients. Superfoods and greens and fruit and herbs and adaptogens. There's so many things covering gut health, heart health, skin health, hair health. It is NSF certified for sport. I love ima. It comes in three flavors. It is so good, it is so simple, it is so convenient. Pop over to im8health.com churnow and get 10% your first order, which will be 10% off any of their site wide discounts. Imaidhealth.com churnow for 10% off your first order, back to the pot. You know, you, you said something that's that I remember very clearly feeling. So you have one kid and you're like, I love this child. I, I love this. Like, this is like unbelievable how much I love this child. And then all of a sudden your wife gets pregnant with a second one and you're like, oh my God, I'm gonna have to like figure out a way to split this.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Give me up love.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, how am I gonna do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then something really unbelievable happens when that second one comes. You're like, wait a second, I'm not going to have to 5050 this.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

We as human beings have the ability to add 100% more equity to the

[Vinnie Brusco]

pool, which is Kind of crazy, like, when you think about it comes to the love pool, right? Because again, going back to, like, everything's finite. It's like, oh, it's like it has to make sense, has to be on paper. But all of a sudden, again, going back to that point when it's love, it's like, oh, my God, I could, like, do this twice.

[Michael Chernow]

I could just double this up. I could double down on this thing.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's amazing. It's pretty. Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

It's very cool. What. What are some of the lessons that you've learned about yourself from being a dad?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Oh, man, that's a great question. I think I've learned a lot of. A lot of it's rooted in how I show up and also kind of going back to who I was as a kid. Like, I think they are the most amazing mirror into the self that you could ever have. Like, nothing will push you and pull you. Like, your kids. Like, nothing. And I think that it just. It really allowed me to think forward in a sense, and, like, who's the man I want to be not only for, like, myself, but for them, right? Who do I want them to. Who don't. My daughter to look for in a partner. Who don't my. How to want my son to show up as a. As a man in the future. And I'm not perfect, not even close. And then it also has given me the capacity to look back and give myself a little bit of grace as I've come through life, right? And knowing that, okay, like, we're kind of all still there in some way, shape or form. Like, we're kind of all still kids just trying to figure out the world. It's just a new level to the game, right? And, you know, my. I've been talking about this a lot lately. My son, who just turned seven, you know, he'll run around with a stick, and I'm sure, you know, like, boys are just, like, wild, very different than girls. And I wonder sometimes, like, when he has a stick and he's pretending it's a sword or a rifle or whatever is. I'm like, does he actually, like, see that? Like, does he actually believe, like, that is actually a sword? And, like, from our, you know, adult. It's like, kind of. That's silly. But it's like, maybe, like, we forget who we were, right? We lose that part of us. My daughter's 11, and I see it. She drew a picture that's on the fridge, and it's a perspective piece, and it's a road it's like a rainbow road. And on this side of the perspective is like clouds and rainbows and unicorns. It's all like fairy tale. And then at the end of this road is just grass and like a sky. I'm like, what is that? She's like, oh, that's me leaving childhood. And I was like, what are you talking about? But that's like, we lose that. We lose this like fantasy about life. Like the magic goes away for some reason. And I think that's something that they've brought back into my life, is reintroducing the magic of everything that's literally around us at all times.

[Michael Chernow]

Are there any things that you do with your kids, like, routines that you've implemented, like at some point in their lives to draw connection?

[Vinnie Brusco]

I do a lot of nighttime. Like I sleep my son every night. I tuck him in, I fall asleep in his room. I wake up at like 9. I'm like a zombie. Right? But prayer with my daughter every night. You pray every night with her? We, we set the tone of praying, even if it's a quick, like, quick prayer. And then just like having that time, my son in bed, you know, outside of that, there's not many.

[Michael Chernow]

Right.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's just kind of like that wind down time where we can just be like open and have conversations and how was your day? Like, the real conversation that I try to have with them. And it's hard when, you know, but My daughter, who's 11, she. She's starting to get it, you know, she's really starting to see the world in a really unique, beautiful perspective. And that's hard as an 11 year old. But I do my best to kind of guide her in that.

[Michael Chernow]

So you pray with your daughter and you don't pray with your son?

[Vinnie Brusco]

I do, I do, but it's not as consistent, you know, with him. It's like, he's like, no. I'm like, all right. Like, I get it. I'm like, I'll still pray, but okay. You know, it's just that tucking routine, I think is so, you know, it's just so important to me.

[Michael Chernow]

What's your faith life like?

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's exploded. It's exploded. Over the last, I would say over the last year and a half on, on December 5, 2025, I made a very, A very, very firm commitment to my faith after kind of just being in a moment of complete surrender and just being. I can't, I can't do this alone, and I don't want to do this alone. And since Then it's felt.

[Michael Chernow]

What was that commitment?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Just. Just recognizing Jesus, recognizing the Lord, recognizing God. Right. You know, for a long time, I was spiritual, right. I had, you know, it was the force or it was the universe. And my daughter was going to communion school, you know, going to CCD school and getting ready for communion. And my wife and I were in church because we're like, we should start going. And the monsignor who I talked to, he's been on the podcast, like, he's a great guy. He said, remember, when you come up, you're receiving the God who created the universe. And I looked at my wife, I was like, I'm going to receive. She's like, what? I was like, I'm going to receive. And ever since then, it's just been this constant unfolding of just what I call micro miracles. Right. And it could be the smallest thing or the biggest thing. So my faith has gotten very, very strong. I do my best to read the Bible every day. I do my best to, you know, we do a Bible thing tank at Agora, where it's a, you know, we wrestle with the questions. I think that's a huge part of it, too. You know, growing up Catholic, it was always like, you did this wrong. You're a bad kid. You're going to hell. And that shift of relationship, going back to that earlier point with God and being like, oh, I'm a son, right. Like, I'm a. I'm a son. The way I love my son, like, that's the way I'm loved beyond.

[Michael Chernow]

Right?

[Vinnie Brusco]

So once I shifted that dynamic, it became so much more okay to be a fallible person, to just be okay being who I am and just leaning into that and really feeling it on a deeper level.

[Michael Chernow]

I've also leaned into my faith really hard. And I'm in this weird moment now, for whatever reason, where I'm. I read a daily devotional, and sometimes in the devotional, it interprets Jesus's word in a way that triggers my issue with authority. Right. Like, you know, in the Word, it really does say, like, I am the Almighty and you are weak.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And I, I, I have chosen you because of your weakness to show you that I'm here and you can completely trust and rely on me.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, you're never alone, but you are weak, and I am the Almighty.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And in, in, in some of those passages, that issue with authority for me gets triggered.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Authority in the sense of you being weak?

[Michael Chernow]

No, just in the sense of I've

[Vinnie Brusco]

got to bow down so like, the surrender piece.

[Michael Chernow]

The surrender piece.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Oh, yeah. No, I struggled with that for a long time. I was wrestling with that for a very long. I was like, I can't comprehend this. Like, I don't get it. Like, how is. Like, I. I know exactly that feeling. I know exactly that feeling.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. And. And that's something that I. About a year and change ago, Jesus just started showing up for me in, like, real ways. Like, could not deny it.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Science would never be able to prove it.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah, I get it.

[Michael Chernow]

But it just. There were. You know, I saw Jesus in the sky driving down the highway in Utah. I had to pull over, you know.

[Vinnie Brusco]

That's amazing.

[Michael Chernow]

It was beautiful.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Like, in, like. In, like, form.

[Michael Chernow]

Yes.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Whoa. Yes.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, I was with a friend who's a pretty devout Christian, and we were just talking about faith. And for years, 20 years, 19 years, for me, it was all similar to you. Universe, spirit, energy. Yeah, yeah. Spiritual. And then all of a sudden, all these Christian people started showing up in my life and asking me about my faith. Just be like, oh, what's your. What's your story with faith right now? Like, where are you at with your faith? And my answer was, oh, I pray every day. I'm on my hands and knees every single morning.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I said, and were you at that time?

[Michael Chernow]

Oh, yeah.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah. Okay.

[Michael Chernow]

Prayer has always been a massive part. Interestingly, right now, my prayer practice has changed a lot because for 19 years, I was on my hands and knees every single morning, and I'd say the exact same prayer. I could spit it out right now, which is the exact same prayer.

[Vinnie Brusco]

What is it? If you don't mind sharing. Yeah, if you don't mind sharing. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

So the prayer is, God, grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. I'm powerless over drugs and alcohol. My life is unmanageable. I've come to believe in a power greater than myself to restore me to sanity and made a decision to turn my will in my life over to your care and direction. God, please help me get through this day as a sober instrument of your will. Please help to remove my fears, my insecurities, my character defects, my character assassination, my wrong thinking and my rationalizing. Please allow me to be of service today. And then I'd go through all that's beautiful.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Like, take a minute and recognize how beautiful that is. That's true surrender, though.

[Michael Chernow]

But, but, but. So after that, I. I had a. You know, there's about 70 people that I pray for every day.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Sure.

[Michael Chernow]

And then I say, God, please help to set aside everything I think I know so that I can get through this day is with an open heart, an open mind, and a new experience. I will not might be done. Amen. I was dialing it in. I had a prayer. I get on my hands and knees, I close my eyes, I'd say the prayer. I wasn't present. I was dialing it in and it was just a step and repeat thing.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I get it.

[Michael Chernow]

And somebody had said to me, what is your relationship with God? And I was like, I pray. And that person responded with, well, if you're in a relationship with somebody and all the whole entire relationship is them talking to you, you not saying anything back, them talking to you.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Right.

[Michael Chernow]

How long would you exist in the relationship if all it was was them talking to you?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Right.

[Michael Chernow]

I'd be like, probably not that long. You know what I mean? I get bored of listening to somebody talk to me all the time without being able to respond. And that, that person said, well, then you should start to actually develop a relationship.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's a two way street.

[Michael Chernow]

You talk and you listen.

[Vinnie Brusco]

You talk and you listen.

[Michael Chernow]

You talk and you listen. And so I wasn't listening much. I would still meditate. And meditate was. Meditation is, is a way, I think, of opening up listening channels for sure. But I wasn't thinking about it, my meditation as a relationship development practice with God. I was just thinking about my relationship with presence.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And so my current practice is less about the getting on my hands and knees in the morning and saying my prayers and more about this. I'm going to create a relationship with Jesus that is just all day long.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yes.

[Michael Chernow]

I'm in the car, I'm just talking like, like, like he's a freaking brother.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Like he's a friend. I'm talking to him in the morning, driving to work, you know, all right, Jesus, you know, I'm stressed out, man. I'm stressed out. I got a lot going on on my plate. I'm, you know, give me some strength. Give me, fill me with your spirit. Please just like grace me with your golden glow, because I know you got it and I know I need it, you know, things like that. And you know, I'd be driving home from work and, you know, the spring is coming, upstate New York. And I'm looking out into, you know, the horizon and like the sun has just got this glow and the sky is just this, the clouds, you know, it's finally like it's not dark. At 5:30 at night anymore, it's like, you know, this beautiful cotton candy sky.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah, dude, yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Glow is just shining across the field. And like, you know, I see a fucking bald eagle or I, I see a deer, you know, walking alone with like a little baby behind, you know, and I'm like that, I'm like, jesus, thank you.

[Vinnie Brusco]

There's Jesus. He's waiting for you.

[Michael Chernow]

My God, thank you so much for just allowing me to be present enough to see that like, I know that's you. I know that's you. I needed that right now. I needed to find, feel that ease, that peace,

[Vinnie Brusco]

that confirmation that validate. Yeah, I get it.

[Michael Chernow]

Interrupting this episode to share with you that creatures of habit finally launched our protein bar. It's called the Daily Bar. It's made with 20 grams of plant based protein. 3 grams of creatine. Yes, you heard that right. It also has 3 grams of creatine. It is incredible. Incredibly tasty and clean as a whistle. All clean ingredients. Take this opportunity. Hop over to creaturesofhabit.com that's creaturesofabit.com with a K and use code K. O H p o d. 20 at checkout for 20% off your first order. Back to the pod. Cheers, bro. What do you think of that?

[Vinnie Brusco]

The problem is doesn't taste like a protein bar. That is really.

[Michael Chernow]

Wow.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Give me a minute. Hold on. Look at this. Dude. Nailed it. Nailed it.

[Michael Chernow]

Good.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Oh my God, dude, these are perfect. All right. Peanut bari doesn't have like the protein vibe. Dude, you nailed this.

[Michael Chernow]

It took me two and a half years.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I was just gonna ask you, how long did it take you to nail this down?

[Michael Chernow]

Two and a half years, dude. Of working on making the.

[Vinnie Brusco]

How many protein bars did you eat? Two and a half years.

[Michael Chernow]

I went through over 50 iterations.

[Vinnie Brusco]

50? Mm.

[Michael Chernow]

I refuse to settle.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's evident.

[Michael Chernow]

I refuse to settle on it.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

And the formulators. I went through four different formulators because everybody was telling me I just crushed

[Vinnie Brusco]

that thing, by the way. Like, annihilated that.

[Michael Chernow]

Gone. Have another one.

[Vinnie Brusco]

No, I'm good.

[Michael Chernow]

Amazing. They were like, you can't get what you. You can't get all the things you want.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Like, wanna bet?

[Michael Chernow]

And I was like, I'm not gonna stop until I get all the things I want. So like, either you're in or you're out. And some guys after 10 different versions were like, I'm out, you're what you want.

[Vinnie Brusco]

What did you want specifically that? They were saying like, oh, no, this isn't gonna work.

[Michael Chernow]

20 grams of protein, all clean ingredients.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yep.

[Michael Chernow]

Perfect texture and incredible flavor profile. Well. And three grams of creatine. Right.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Well, you got that.

[Michael Chernow]

So everybody told me that. Not everybody. I found. I found these guys that did it, but. But everybody told me that I was crazy because making a delicious protein bar just so. Like, it's so hard to make a delicious protein bar with real food.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's so. Yeah, exactly. It's. They're. They're. Nine out of ten of them are just very disappointing. Like, you know what you're getting? Not this one.

[Michael Chernow]

I. I think we. I think you nailed it. I think we did it.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Packaging is awesome too.

[Michael Chernow]

Thank you.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Love the vibe of it. Love the vibe of it.

[Michael Chernow]

But back to Jesus.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Back to Jesus in Utah.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah. So, anyway, I'm driving and I'm with my buddy, who's. Who. You know, he and I were just talking about faith pretty much the whole day. And Christianity is not new. It's not. I didn't grow up in a Christian household. My mother was Jewish, and my father was not Jewish, but my father hated the Jewish holidays, and so it was very controversial for me because my. My mother was never really. We weren't. There was no religious happening in the house, but my mother's sister was a conservative Jewish family, and so she would invite us to Passover, and my father absolutely hated it. Hated it.

[Vinnie Brusco]

So they would fight.

[Michael Chernow]

And so it was like, almost like. Like living with a Jew and an anti Semite. Yeah. You know, it was, like, very, very confusing.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And so I just kind of strayed away from any kind of religious stuff, but Christians started to show up in my life, like, two years ago, like, a lot, you know, vocal. And. And so I'm. I'm driving with Austin, and we. We're, like, driving down the highway, and then I look up in the sky, and I just saw Jesus in the sky, like, above this mountain in the clouds. And it was, like, very real for me. And I was not on drugs. I've been sober a long time, and I just stared at him. I was like, oh, my God, dude. I just, like, legitimately just saw, like, Jesus looking at me. And. And that was when I just knew that, like, something was happening for me. And so I started listening to podcasts and reading books, and I picked, you know, people were sending me devotionals and, you know, and. And so now it's this. It's this, you know, like, I've listened to so many near death experience podcasts at this point because I'm still trying to, like, I'm not like, I know that I'll get to a point where I've committed my life to Jesus. I just believe that I will. You know what I mean? Like, because. Because some of the guys, like, I. My. My friend Nick Bear, he's. He owns BPN subs. And I went on his podcast a couple of months ago, six months ago, five months ago, and he was like, me, he was like, you know, I've never really been, like, a religious person. And then he's like, you know, I. I started getting these signals and I slowly started to do some research and listen to a book and talk to a pastor.

[Vinnie Brusco]

And. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And. And I. I made the decision to fully commit. Like, I'm all in. I'm all in on it. And he was just like, my life has just been unbelievable since then.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And. And so I do believe in this faith piece, this face. Faith thing. Yeah. I think it's. I think because, like, you kind of sit back and you say, the way I kind of rationalize it is like, wait, so, like, there. There's. There's two and a half billion people that believe in Jesus, like, really believe. They're like actual believers. They believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and as the potential, you know, Messiah. And when we pass on, we are in eternal bliss, right, With Jesus and all of our friends and family. Right. And the rationalization for me is like, imagine that's true.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Right?

[Michael Chernow]

And I'm not taking the opportunity to fully invest in that. Like. Like, I. I never have to worry because even when the bad stuff happens, because it's going to happen, I'm going to be okay because I've got this. This guy on my side that's gonna, like, carry me through no matter what, no matter how hard it gets. There's a guy that is, like, gonna love me unconditionally as a. Fought like a. Like a. From a father to a son. And someone said to me once recently, like, you know, if you're like. And I didn't have a great father, I had a really, really rough relationship with my father. So I don't know what, like, having a great father feels like. And someone said to me, like, just imagine, you know, Jesus as, like, the best father ever. And I was like, well, I don't know what that feels like. And they were like, imagine what a great father. He's like. The person said, are you a great father? And I was like, I believe I'm a really great father. And that person said, well, imagine you were to your sons what Jesus is to you. And I was like, that would be pretty awesome.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

You know?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah. A lot of Christians came up in my life as well, and they all spoke about this, like, before and after.

[Michael Chernow]

Right.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It was like, before life and then with Christ and then after. And I became very friendly with a local pastor and still going to Catholic church. I still do. And I think what I've done is I've extrapolated the essence of Christianity. I have Catholicism. I know what to me feels like it's forced. And to me, what feels authentic. And, you know, I was. Everyone was saying this after this after. I was like, man, I just want that after. I just wonder what that after feels like. And I remember I. I. On December 5th, I kind. In a moment, I was just, like, I gave myself over. And for, like, the following two weeks, I was in this tunnel. I was in this vacuum of existence where I felt like I was in a rainstorm, but I was bone dry. Like, nothing was phasing me in, like, the best kind of way because I felt so supported in something, I couldn't put words to it. And then I had this moment where I was, like, from the outside looking in, I probably look crazy right now. And then I had this moment where I was like, AM I Leonardo DiCaprio in Shutter Island? Like, am I the crate? Like, did I lose it? Like, it almost took me out of this, like, flow state that I was feeling this, like, Christ consciousness that I was, like, so aligned and feeling bone dry in this rainstorm. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, did I lose my mind? And then what happened? I had this moment. I was like, oh, that's the after. That's the after that everyone's talking about. And it doesn't need to be this perfect vacuum of experience, but to me, it's this knowing that there are all these pillars in my life, four pillars, whatever you want to call them, but there's one that's dead in the middle, that if any of them go down, that's the one that's holding the whole table up. And I'm like. And that's how I felt. I mean, you know, I had this moment in bed.

[Michael Chernow]

I was.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I was laying down, talking to my son, and I was thinking for the longest time, I feel like I've been climbing this mountain, just waiting to get to his next summit. Next summit with this backpack on. And it feels like I finally put down the backpack, and now I have someone helping me pull it up, and I've reached the summit already. And it was Just this totally, like, release. And it's not every moment of every day. It's. It's not. Not even close. But more times than not, I just feel like the weight of things is not just only on me, and it's. It's held. I'm being held by something that's far greater. And a big problem that I came across was kind of like, what you were alluding to is, like, this, trying to rationalize and psychologically understand God. Like, I'm like, trying to understand God. I'm like, what do you like? Because a big part of me was, he's born of a virgin. That's kind of weird. Like, I can't wrap my brain around that. And then, like, you're putting a limit and a cap on the Creator. So you're okay with him creating the universe, but he couldn't be born of a virgin. You're okay with him creating life as we know it or every blade of grass, but he couldn't perform miracles. Like, so why are you trying to understand something that's not understandable? Right. You're trying to understand the universe and your brain is breaking. Trying to do it. So when are you just going to accept that if we could be having this conversation, that way more is possible?

[Michael Chernow]

And that's. That is ultimately the definition of faith.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Right.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

The definition of faith is in, you know, in my mind, it's like. Right now, right in this very moment, it might not be tangibly real. So you've got to believe that there is a possibility. Sure. For anything to come to fruition, that that was where the faith comes in. Right. That is the faith where it's like. And we put a name to it with Jesus or, you know, Buddha or Allah or whatever it is for you. But it's this idea that, like,

[Vinnie Brusco]

it's.

[Michael Chernow]

It's. You can't describe. You know, people say larger than life, you know, something bigger than me. It would just be so remiss for people to walk through the world not giving this faith bit a chance in the event that it's real.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's the old. Like, I'd rather find out that there. You know, act as if there is a God and find out that there isn't than act as if there isn't a God and find out that there is. Which is kind of like hedging your bet. Right? I've. I've. And I used to have that kind of mindset with things. I was like, oh, I kind of want to just Believe just in case, right? And then it became a. Like, that's not the way to do it. Like, either you're going to believe in it or you're not going to believe in it. Don't try to just hedge your bet, just that you're safe. You're kind of just like you're playing both sides, right? So, you know, I think for me personally, in leaning into it, it just again, going back to that, that fifth pillar of things, it just gave such a foundation. And to your earlier point, like, there have just been so many. You know, you call them coincidences, you call them serendipities, right? I've. I've come to call them micro miracles. They're these small little moments, these little nods, these little winks, these little breadcrumb trails ago. Let's keep on going. Let's keep on going. Whatever it is. And it could be in business, it could be in marriage, it could be with your children. It could be just on your own journey of self discovery. You get these little nods and there's just no way to explain them. We were, we partnered with Westchester Soccer Club and I spent the whole day with the team, right? And I'm like, I'm gonna go to church around the corner from Agora and just thank God. And as I'm walking to the steps of the church, there's a soccer ball and cleats sitting on the church steps. I go inside and I pray and I walk out. And my logical mind wanted like, well, dad was playing soccer with his son and someone. And he left his cleats in his ball and someone put on the church step. But that felt like such versus that's God nudging me in the right direction. And it, I was like, logically, I couldn't, I was like wrestling with this. I was like, could it be like, is that really what I'm experiencing right now? And maybe like, I have to, I have to lean into like, I don't know. But the. What came up inside was me trying to rationalize this right now with some human 3D validation seems like such more of a farce than me leaning into what I actually do feel. And that's what's guided me more towards faith and the whole experience.

[Michael Chernow]

We're limited in our thinking and our

[Vinnie Brusco]

believing and what we believe, right? And our knowing. Right. We think that everything operates in, you know, up until whatever, you know, the enlightenment when it was like, oh, everything is what you could see, touch and feel, right? People believed in things that were ethereal and something bigger than yourself. And then we just get into like, no reality is this table. It's like, is it. I don't know.

[Michael Chernow]

Well, when you listen to some of these near death experiences that are very, very coincidentally, like, very similar, you know, like, they all end up in like, the majority of them end up on like this beautiful garden. And like the flowers are like way bigger than normal and they're, they're alive and they're breathing and the colors are insanely vibrant colors that you can't see here on this earth. And they all tell this very similar story. And then Jesus some way somehow shows up in this experience for them. And you know, it's crazy, right? So like, I'm so, I'm very close. I think the hurdle that I, I have is that, you know, my wife is not, not interested. And so. And I respect that. 100. Everybody's totally entitled to their. The way they experience this other dimension potential.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Sure.

[Michael Chernow]

And so it's really a solo mission for me. Right.

[Vinnie Brusco]

But it always is, Right. Like what an ultimate mirror.

[Michael Chernow]

Right?

[Vinnie Brusco]

What, what a perfect challenge to have on your journey. Right. It always is a solo mission. It's always a. So even when your partner goes to church with you and you know, experiences, whatever, it's always a solo mission. It has to be a solo mission because it's your mission. It can't be. So it's like business. Like your dream of creating something is your. You can't expect anybody else around you, no matter how close or how distant, to understand your dream and your vision. It's not possible, it's not theirs. I think it's the same thing with faith. You can't expect someone like, oh yeah, like you could have some supportive characters in your life. Absolutely. It's a beautiful thing to have. But ultimately it boils down to you and what an ultimate mirror to have as your wife to be the one that's challenged you. And I know how much you adore your wife to challenge you in this capacity. It's. It's actually beautiful.

[Michael Chernow]

What, how important do you think faith is in this modern man conversation?

[Vinnie Brusco]

I think it's more important than people realize and I think it's more important than men give it credit for. And in speaking to a lot of guys, I think that more guys believe in faith than they even realize. They have conversations about it. Right. Or it's alluded to or, you know, I have, I have a buddy of mine, we have this dynamic who's like, ah, you don't really believe. I'm like. And you Believe more than you even realize, right? And I think that's a lot of the wrestling that we're allowed to have. We're allowed to wrestle with these ideas, right? When. When Peter got called out into the water, he. I think of Wild E. Coyote, right? We're gonna have those moments where we're gonna look down, go, oh, shit, I'm standing on nothing. And you fall. It's gonna happen. It's part of it. And just like in business, like, you know, the things that set you back, it's a part of it. Like, it's just as much a part of it, is all the wonderful parts of it. So you have to accept that you're going to wrestle and you're going to question, you're going to doubt, and that is okay. And in that doubt and in that wrestling, you're still loved and supported, right? So I think that with a lot of guys, there's a reluctancy. And it was for me, and you kind of mentioned it for yourself, there was this reluctancy to just surrender to something and then to, like, another man. I do jiu jitsu. I don't. I don't. I do my best not to tap, Right? But it's not tapping in the sense of surrendering to another man. It's. It's like, from the father dynamic, it's like someone knows what's best for me and they're guiding me to the best. Like, think about your kids, right?

[Michael Chernow]

Like, you.

[Vinnie Brusco]

You could offer the insight and the perspective and all the love and everything, but they still have to believe in

[Michael Chernow]

you as a father and not asking you not to wrestle with it. Right. Like asking you to wrestle with it, but also saying, I. I know the way. Yeah. I know the way, and I want to show it to you.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And the best way to learn from me is to live like. And emulate Me.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Me. Right. Right. 100.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, when I'm working with guys in sobriety and, you know, I've. I've. I've sponsored many guys over the years, and when I start. First start working with a guy, I say, let's not, you know, let's not put labels on this. Let's just get to know each other and see if this is a fit.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

But what I'm going to need to ask of you is there's a couple of requirements for working with me, because I can't show you how to do this any other way. I only know the one way that I got sober. I know it works for me. Right. I can't say it's going to work for you, but I do know it worked for me, and it continues to work for me. You're going to have to pray, and I don't care if you believe or not, you're going to have to pray because prayer is something that I do every single day without fail. It doesn't, you know, it's what I do. And fitness is something that you've got to commit to. Those are the two things. And if you can't do that, I'm not your guy. And that's basically what Jesus has been knocking on my door saying, saying, yeah, hey, like, you know, you gotta, you gotta. You gotta believe that I'm in your life, in your soul, in your spirit. I'm with you.

[Vinnie Brusco]

What prevents you from, like, leaning into it more?

[Michael Chernow]

There are days where I wake up and I'm like, you know, I don't want to walk. I want to walk over to the, to the nearest pastor and just say, hey, baptize me.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Me. Wow.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to completely just let go. Let go.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

And I think one of the. Well, I don't think I know one of the bigger hurdles for me, and that is, like, that conversation with my wife is a tough conversation, right? Like, yeah, of course I'm gonna go and like, fully surrender and convince, completely commit to faith. You know, even saying it right now, I know I want that. I. I do want that. I do want.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I do.

[Michael Chernow]

I want it. I want to be able to just say, you know what? I'm. I'm all in. Like, I'm all in. And the beauty of it, too, is that, like, I also know that, like, I. The way I live my life today is so far from the way I used to live my life before I got sober that I'm not going to have to, like, change a lot. I'm already sort of living in, In a. In the, in, in a sort of, like, Jesus, like, yeah, way where I really do think about the decisions that I have to make on a daily basis. I really do most everything in my life with intention and love. And also, I've got flaws and I up and I stumble and I probably curse too much and, you know, like, it would be, you know, I. I look at porn every once in a while and so. But I will say that ever since I've started down this, like, really listening to. To Jesus and, like, really sort of not dabbling, like, being fully interested. Yeah, I'm. I'm the guy ready to sign. I'm at the table, the closing table, you know what I mean? I'm like, yeah. And so anytime I. Even when I curse, even when I catch myself cursing now, because I come from New York City, my father was a blue collar guy. I grew up in a household of just f bombs. Just everywhere.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, New York City, like, even when I curse, I'm like, I didn't need to say that. That.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, I just. I didn't need to say it.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Like.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, I could show my passion in other ways, you know, like, if I do break the, The. The promise and, and, you know, go check look at some porn. Like, if I do that, I'm. I'm. I don't think it's abnormal every once in a while, you know, Like, I'm like, I didn't need to do that, you know, And I would have never thought that way before, you know, Like, I just, like, I didn't need to do that, you know? And. And sometimes, like, if I'm having a conversation with somebody and really, you know, I'm a hustler at heart, man. I just am. I was born, like, the streets of New York really did. Yeah. Make me a. A guy that was just kind of out there just trying to create, build and grow. And when you're doing that in New York City as a kid with not a lot of supervision, you know, you figure out how to do that.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Right.

[Michael Chernow]

And. And sometimes I can catch myself, like, in a situation where I'm like, dude, your intention here is not what you're actually displaying. Like, you're holding. You're actually trying to pull the wool right now, you know, it. Pull back. And I would, you know, not that I would never think about that before, because we all have to be chameleons at times.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Sure, of course.

[Michael Chernow]

But just I know that, like, having even the real interest. I've got a real stake in the ground is making me better. Yeah, it's just making me better.

[Vinnie Brusco]

The authenticity, it's just making me better.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, it's making me better. And I just know that, like, if I were to fully go just take the dip, I'm sure that, that, that, that fully better or like, making me better would just. Just enhance in an enormous way. So, you know, I think what the apprehension is, is really like, can I do this alone in my family? You know, I think.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I think you have to. You have to step into that space as, as the man of the household. Like, you know, I. I definitely spearheaded the, the we're going to church operation, right? Like, I spearheaded that. My wife is obviously receptive to it, and my kids go to religion. Now that's over. I'm like, we're still gonna go to church, right? We're still gonna honor that, and we're still gonna recognize that. And if I have to do that by my. I go to church by myself sometimes, right? I'm just like, I'm going to church. Like, that's it. You know, it's. It's no different to me as my kids see me come home from Jiu Jitsu at five in the morning, six in the morning, when they were waking up to have breakfast, and I come in the house and I'm beat to hell. Like, they need to see that. Like, I need to set that tone of, like. Like, that's what I do. Like, that's what a man does. Like, he goes out, he does the work, he shows up when it's not easy, when he's tired. And I'm not perfect at it again, not even close. But I still. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go to church. And, like, whether they come with me or not, I'm going to church, right? And, you know, I think to that point of. Of being fallible and making mistakes, I. You know, when I had those moments, I'd be like, listen, man, like, even Jesus in the garden, when he was going to get crucified, he was like, really? Like, this is what I gotta do. But if it's your will, okay, right? Like that wrestling match he experienced, right in that dynamic of, like, this is what I have to do, but if it's your will, and I try to lean into. If it's your will. If it's your will, let it be. You know, in shifting from. From previous employment to Agora, I was, you know, looking for jobs and all this stuff, and I was like, I surrender. I give up. And I would. Literally, my prayer shifted from like, God, help me find a new job and help me get this to put me where you want me. That's it. Put me where you want me. That's it. Let me be of service to you. That's it. And things have unfolded in ways that I couldn't even imagine. And it's scary and it's uncomfortable and it sucks in a lot of ways, but as long as I lean into, this is where I'm supposed to be, and I feel more alive in that, and it's less of that, like. Like, oh, God, crummy feeling, and more of the alignment piece, then I know I'm on the right path.

[Michael Chernow]

Dude, this was fun.

[Vinnie Brusco]

This was great.

[Michael Chernow]

I didn't. I didn't. I didn't anticipate a. A conversation about Christ, but I'm so happy that we're having it. You know, it's like. And the funny thing is, is that this is. These are the conversations that I think what you're trying to do with men are to look like, right. We're talking about things that are not. The Knicks winning the championship, although that will be very, very good. And the Giants, you know, getting a really strong O line and, you know, walking into a new season. Like, we. Those are great conversations. The conversations that we just had are conversations that more men should be having with other men and probably want to have, but have this weird fear around opening up and talking about these things. And these are the things that actually make us men. Yeah, these are the things.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's the great conversation. It's that conversation of, like, I don't. It's like that. Seeing stepbrothers, when they go to hug each other, they're kind of like, I don't know how to do this, like, because there's no. There's no format. There was no place, right? And that's what I came to is, like, there's no place to actually. That cultivates and create this atmosphere where you can have real, honest conversations. Say, I'm struggling with my faith, with my marriage, with my job, with being a dad, whatever it is. And that's the beauty of is, is the connectivity that I've literally felt. In one of the meetings, I saw this golden thing come out of my chest and go through the room amongst the guys, and I went home, and I was like, I don't know what I just felt. I don't know what I just saw, but that feeling is what I'm going after in my life. And it's led me to amazing places. But to your point, there's. There's. Guys want to have these conversations, they just don't know how to. And it's weird. It's kind of like, all right, dude. Like. But the water cooler conversation wears thin after a while, and once it wears thin, it wears really thin, you know? And once you start having these conversations, like, this is all I want to talk about, right? So it becomes a. It becomes a beautiful thing.

[Michael Chernow]

And.

[Vinnie Brusco]

And, you know, to step on that and to be able to. To create the space for guys to have these conversations is one of the biggest blessings of my life.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, women have These conversations way more than men do.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Right.

[Michael Chernow]

And you know how powerful that is for them. Like, that's. It's such a strong. It's such a sign of strength. It's such a sign of strength that women so easily are able to have these conversations. Right. They don't have much fear around it. It's just like, it's.

[Vinnie Brusco]

It's.

[Michael Chernow]

It's culturally part of who they are.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Right.

[Michael Chernow]

Probably that feminine energy. And I think for us men, we think about these conversations potentially as some, like, tapping into that feminine energy.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Absolutely.

[Michael Chernow]

And guess what? Masculinity is a blend.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Of course.

[Michael Chernow]

It's a blend of being able to tap into that feminine energy and be powerful.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Absolutely.

[Michael Chernow]

Right. Not. I shouldn't say powerful. That doesn't.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Energetic. Energetically strong energy.

[Michael Chernow]

Energetically strong. You know, and. And. And. And, like, I don't. You know, for anybody who is not. Who has not watched a woman give birth, I'm just here to tell you. I remember when my wife was giving birth for the first. Actually, the first time was a little bit different, although it was obviously as monumental. The second time my wife gave birth, it was fast. It was very fast. It was like. First one was like 14 hours or something. With Dakota, it was like three hours. It was fast and furious. And something happened that I witnessed in the first one, but what I really

[Vinnie Brusco]

was able to internalize in the second. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

My wife's whole entire energy. She was the most powerful person I think I might have ever seen in my life. On that. That bed, on that. That. In that room. My wife turned into a lioness. Love that. The energy that came out of that woman. She was bringing this child into the world, and she just. She men, like, it was unbelievable. She was just. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't.

[Vinnie Brusco]

I was. Can't put words to it.

[Michael Chernow]

Can't put words to it.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, just that. Like, the strength. Strength and the conviction of getting that kid out and bringing that kid into the world no matter what.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, you're facing the pain in, like,

[Vinnie Brusco]

such a. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

So, like, you know, I. I really admire what you're doing, man. I admire what you're doing, and I'm so happy that. That you're giving guys an opportunity to tap into this space, you know, and you're holding a container there for men to be able to just, like, fucking, like, you know, sit around a fire and tell the stories that count.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

You know, tell the stories that count. Dude, this was awesome, dude.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Thank you so much. This is Bar's amazing. And the conversation was just as good.

[Michael Chernow]

Where can everybody follow along your journey?

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah. On Instagram, it's at Vinnie Brusco, AOR Social Club dot com. And on We Funder, where we're raising the capital. Right now, it's We Funder dot com AgoraSocial Club.

[Michael Chernow]

Sick. That's right. You're raising. You're doing a crowdfund.

[Vinnie Brusco]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Awesome, man. Well, you heard it here. Vinnie Brusco is a legend, and I really loved that conversation. I feel like we covered a lot of different things. And, you know, like, I knew when Vinny was gonna come on the show, we were gonna talk about manhood and masculinity. And I just gotta say, like, I'm not afraid to have that conversation. I'm just not. I've been. I've had it before on the podcast. We've talked about it on the podcast before, and I've had some people say, oh, yeah, you know, middle aged, white, successful man, easy for you to, you know, talk about. If that's how you feel, great. You know, I respect your opinion. You know, I can't. These are conversations that need to be had because it's not a bad conversation to have, and I just hope that you got something from it. And I'm sure you did, because we talked. We covered a lot. So. So pass the podcast off. Share it with friends and family. Share it with someone who you think could. Could really listen or could. Could use it. And I appreciate you guys being on this journey. I appreciate you being on this journey. It means a hell of a lot. Until the next one, y'. All. Peace.