Why Most Couples Fail in Business (And They Didn’t) | Ian & Margaret Wishingrad | Kreatures of Habit

Summary

Kreatures Of Habit Podcast with Michael Chernow
Episode: “Why Most Couples Fail in Business (And They Didn’t) | Ian & Margaret Wishingrad”
Release Date: May 20, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the unique dynamics, challenges, and rewards of running a business as a married couple. Host Michael Chernow sits down with Ian & Margaret Wishingrad, founders of the cereal brand Three Wishes, to discuss the intersection of marriage, entrepreneurship, family, and personal growth. The conversation is candid and lively, giving listeners practical insights and real-life anecdotes about balancing love, work, and parenting—all while building a company together.

---

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Marriage as Best Friendship

• Both Ian and Margaret emphasize that being best friends is the bedrock of their partnership in marriage and business.
  • Margaret (00:14): "At the core of it, like, we are best friends that happen to be attracted to each other… We love to make each other laugh. We're each other's best audience."
  • Michael (00:30, 39:59): "I really do believe that you have to marry your best friend."
• They stress resolving core relationship issues before marriage to avoid trouble later.
  • Margaret (00:51): "So many couples… had so many core issues that they didn't resolve. They just put the band aid of marriage over it. And I think that's going to bubble to the surface."

2. Complementary Strengths & Yin-Yang Dynamics

• Ian and Margaret divide roles based on their strengths: Ian focuses on acquisition, big ideas, and sales, while Margaret handles retention, operations, and details.
  • Ian (02:45): "I do acquisition, she does retention... I'll make the money, she will protect the money. I'll bring in the employees, she will run them."
  • Margaret (02:05): "A good partnership is like if you can bring out something incredible in the other person and help them grow and blossom."
• They joke about each other's abilities with spreadsheets, demonstrating functional division and mutual respect.
  • Ian (03:01): "I can't look at Excel spreadsheets... And she's sitting here like, that's that."
  • Margaret (03:29): "Tag me in."

3. Dreamer and Realist: Navigating Big Vision vs. Pragmatism

• Ian is described as the relentless dreamer, while Margaret is the steady guardrail ensuring dreams are actionable and sustainable.
  • Ian (06:30): "You have to be delusional... everything that's happened, I knew was going to happen."
  • Margaret (06:57): "Someone's got to be a dreamer, it's totally fine."
• Their jockey and racehorse analogy encapsulates this balance: Ian is the horse with energy and drive, Margaret is the jockey giving guidance, encouragement, and focus.
  • Ian (16:50): "I'm a horse that just needs to run. And she was the jockey that put the blinders on and whispered in my ear, 'you got this.'"
  • Margaret (17:32): "Sometimes the horse maybe needs the whipping… to know how to race in that lane and to know when to speed up and to slow down."

4. Business Partnership Challenges

• As the business grows, so do tensions around decision-making, risk, and financial anxieties.
  • Margaret (21:15): "We have a real company now. It’s a tug of war of, hey, no, like, Ian, don't slow down. And he's like, no, running, running. So that's where the difficulty comes."
• The importance of honest, even loud, communication during disagreements is highlighted.
  • Margaret (41:44): "Loud, passionate. The same way we appear, like, happy. It gets to that level of also just like crazy."
  • Ian (43:31): "She is equal to everyone with her principles. Her parents, her grandparents."

5. Personal Growth & Evolving Roles

• Margaret reflects on her professional maturity and how both have had to adapt to evolving roles, especially as the business and family matured.
  • Margaret (35:28): "At 35, you just said it's a different...my professional maturity, light years, like so different."
  • Ian (34:22): "It's been a lot of more growth on my part and having to sort of adjust because it didn't start this way."

6. Setting Boundaries Between Home and Business

• The couple works at intentionally separating work talk from home life for sanity.
  • Ian (38:34): "Margaret usually tells me, I don't want to talk about business right now."
  • Margaret (38:39): "I've had to learn to kind of shut it off. Otherwise it becomes a little bit, like, it's all consuming."

7. Parenting Philosophy

• Both prioritize instilling confidence and strong principles in their children, acknowledging their unique opportunity (and responsibility) to shape their kids' outlook.
  • Margaret (55:55): "So much of it is like, don't let people treat you, like, poorly and kind of like, stand up for yourself and have that backbone in principles."
  • Ian (51:02): "You get out what you put in." (advice given by Margaret, now passed to other parents/partners)

8. Transmitting Family Values

• Rituals, especially bedtime routines, and ongoing affirmations are seen as crucial for building resilient, loving kids.
  • Margaret (53:59): "We're like their hype man... that's what your mama teach you."
  • Michael (58:02): "Since they've been born, every night I put them down...and the 13 things are the 13 values that I have."
• Margaret carries forward her father’s teachings of self-worth and standing up for oneself.
  • Margaret (54:49): "I had this very, like, I know what I'm worth, and I'm not gonna let other people treat me poorly."

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Spreadsheets:
  Ian (03:35): “XLS is Mandarin for me... I don't know what columns. I don't know what we're doing here.”

• On Fundraising & Delusion:
  Ian (05:17): “Every single pitch, I was like, oh, you don't want to get rich? Like, your loss.” Ian (06:30): “You actually literally need to be delusional... But you sound crazy when you say it.”

• On Building a Brand Name:
  Margaret (22:59): “The hashtag I used was three wishes, because now there were the three wishing grads.”

• On Fighting & Negotiation:
  Ian (42:12): “If you do not get on her bad side, her mouth is like a Glock. Okay. It's crazy. True crazy.” Margaret (44:17): “It's just like, these are... Like, this is where I'm tough. Like, this is the line I draw.”

• On Taking Family Time Seriously:
  Margaret (37:32): “I would love nothing more than being in a new place with a new language... incredible food.”

• On Children as Creation:
  Margaret (57:03): “The greatest creation we've ever made is these children. And to see, like, bits and pieces of ourselves... in these humans.”

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:14: Margaret on the foundation of their partnership: best friendship and mutual support.
• 02:45: Division of labor: acquisition vs. retention, big picture vs. details.
• 16:50: Jockey and racehorse analogy for partnership dynamic.
• 21:15: Transitioning roles as the business matures and new challenges arise.
• 38:34: Importance of boundaries between work and personal life.
• 41:44: The couple’s approach to fighting: loud, passionate, but always principled.
• 51:02: Advice passed on: “You get out what you put in.”—especially regarding parenting.
• 55:55: Teaching children to assert self-worth and the importance of principles.
• 57:03: Reflection on parenting as the couple's greatest accomplishment.

---

Closing Insights

This episode offers a vivid look at what it truly means to build not just a company, but a life, together—where the lines between marriage, parenting, and entrepreneurship are deeply blurred but managed with honesty, growth, and core values. Michael Chernow emphasizes that intentionality—both in relationships and in business—is vital:

“If you want these things to work right… it has to be intentional. It's not just going to happen.” (63:07)

Ian & Margaret’s story illustrates that while working, living, and parenting together isn’t for everyone, for them, relentless communication, complementary skills, shared values, and humor make it not just possible—but magical.

---

Final Takeaways

• “At the core of it, we are best friends that happen to be attracted to each other.” (00:14)
• Balance between dreamer and guardrail is essential for business and marriage.
• Honest communication, boundaries, and mutual growth are key to “miracle” partnerships.
• Family values—delivered through ritual and example—shape resilient, confident kids.
• Intentionally prioritizing marriage and family yields fulfillment beyond any business metric.

---

This summary should give you a rich sense of the episode’s wisdom, humor, and practical advice—whether or not you’ve yet listened.

Transcript

[Michael Chernow]

A lot of people struggle with marriage. A lot of people struggle with trying to understand how to have a healthy marriage. You guys are not only married with kids, but you're also running a business together.

[Margaret]

I think at the core of it, like, we are best friends that happen to be attracted to each other. If we met each other and it was just two guys, two girls, and like we were in each other's typewriter, like, we'd actually be really incredible friends. We love to make each other laugh. We're each other's best audience. And. And so I think that's how.

[Michael Chernow]

I think that's so incredible to say we're each other's best audience.

[Ian]

Totally. I really have fun with her. I go hang out sometimes. I'll go with guys or whatever and you're like, oh, some nice. Get away from the woman. Guys hanging out sometimes, like, man, something changed. These guys are like, they're fine, they're friends, but they're a little boring.

[Michael Chernow]

True. I really do believe that you have to marry your best friend.

[Margaret]

You hear about so many couples that, before they got married, had so many core issues that they didn't resolve. They just put the band aid of marriage over it. And I think that's going to bubble to the surface.

[Ian]

An entrepreneur straight out of New York City, Michael Chernow. What's cracking,

[Michael Chernow]

Ian and Margaret, you guys are married and you have a business together and marriage is hard. Marriage and business partnership go.

[Margaret]

Where do we start? I don't know if they're that hard. Are they? Which one's harder? Is marriage harder?

[Ian]

I mean, I can't separate them because they're totally, they're totally mashed up together. But I'd say what made us a great couple is what makes us good in business together. But like you said, business gets bigger, family gets bigger, all those things. Then, like, issues arise.

[Michael Chernow]

What made you a great couple? What makes you a great couple?

[Ian]

SHE laughs AT all my jokes. For most of our thinks I'm like, funny. We were completely ourselves from date one, like a hundred percent.

[Margaret]

I think we even, like egg ourselves on to be the best version. I think ultimately a good partnership is like if you can bring out something incredible in the other person and help them grow and blossom. And so the fact that we get to do that together and we're both blossoming professionally, personally, I think that's like the crux of it. But we have really just complimentary brains. I would say, like the humor, it's a one to one. Like we knew just the culture references, the humor, like that always hit from day one. But I just think, like, where I'm a visual and a math brain. Ian's like an English brain. It's a very yin yang. And then I think her personalities are also just, you know, we're both intense, but different types of intense, I would say.

[Ian]

Also, I've used the analogy of I do acquisition and she does retention. So when we were dating in the city, walking around, I am scanning like Terminator for faces to bump into.

[Michael Chernow]

You don't turn out what's up?

[Ian]

You know, like this. And she's like, watch out, there's dog shit. Like, everything is this. I'll make the money, she will protect the money.

[Margaret]

Yeah.

[Ian]

I will bring in the employees. She will run them. It's like, in that respect, we are a total handoff. I am big idea, small sales, marketing. She is details, spreadsheets, numbers. So it's an incredible. It's a. It's incredible thing. Like, the things that she doesn't want to do don't bother me at all. And the stuff that I would literally get hives. Like, if it says, you go to the doctor, I'm allergic to sea claw. I don't know what that is, but I am allergic to it. I struggle with dairy, and I can't look at Excel and Excel spreadsheets. I like when those things pop up at the weekly sales. I'm like, what is this?

[Margaret]

And I'm like, oh, right. Tag me in.

[Ian]

She's sitting here like, that's that. I'm like, what is this? Like, just, are we okay or not?

[Michael Chernow]

You know? Gosh, I'm so happy you said that. You know, I, I. So I think for the first. Probably see, I founded my first company in 2010. And so I've been at this now for 16 years. For the first eight years, probably, of my journey as a entrepreneur, I was so ashamed that spreadsheets made me cringe. Like, ashamed to the core.

[Ian]

Like.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, I thought that it was just necessary. As the founder and CEO of a company, I needed to be great at spreadsheets. It was the thing that literally would show up on a call and would. I would want to. I would want to leave. I, like, my brain just goes, like, the door shuts down, you know, like the emergency door. Like, the fire door. Fire is going to. Door goes down, and I just go blank.

[Ian]

XLS is Mandarin for me. Like, it's true. You're like, what are you saying? I don't know what columns. I don't know what we're doing here. And She's. This is so organized for her. So obvious.

[Michael Chernow]

But you know what the crazy thing is? Is that there's people like you that actually get super fired up to figure at. To figure it out. Like, people like you and I are trying to figure out the dream and, like, get enough people have the audacity to try to get people to believe not only in being a consumer, but investors, to just throw money at you to believe your vision. Right?

[Ian]

So when we were. When we were fundraising, we had. I did not mind it at all, because every. I'm giving you an opportunity to get rich. Every single pitch, I was like, oh, you don't want to get rich? Like, your loss. And Margaret, I'm like.

[Margaret]

I'm like. Or we're begging for money, Ian. Like, this is. My parents left. You know, they left and came to America. The last thing I need to do is now go beg. Like, what's happening?

[Michael Chernow]

Well, that's a funny.

[Ian]

That's. I want to do. I want to go.

[Michael Chernow]

They left and came to America.

[Margaret]

They did.

[Ian]

No, the best way.

[Margaret]

They walked over here.

[Ian]

I have an anecdote. I'll tee off, and she'll finish. Okay. Her parents escaped Soviet Russia, right? Communism. Not a great place if you're ambitious. And the concept of American Halloween really icks her parents out.

[Margaret]

Okay, so picture this. It's just a young, cute, little Margaret in a cute little princess costume. And I'm like, okay, like, let's go trick or treating. All my friends are going trick or treating. And my dad's like, you think I came here to beg for candy?

[Ian]

No.

[Margaret]

And so he literally would take me to, like, the drugstore to buy me a bag of candy. And he's like, here's the candy you were begging for. I'm like, no. Okay. The salesmanship is going to the door, having the guts to. To knock on the door, go trick or treat, and get the candy as the reward. Okay, let me do it. No. So my kids get to trick or treat.

[Michael Chernow]

That is hilarious.

[Margaret]

I did not get the trick or treat.

[Ian]

And to your point, the audacity. Oh, you want a word I've used a lot, I found is what it takes is. Because a lot of times she'll tell me, you're delusional, and then I'm realizing, yes, you actually literally need to be delusional. Everything that's happened, I knew was going to happen. But you sound crazy when you say it. I don't think I sound crazy, because I'm certain it's happening. I know it's Happening. But I guess objectively that is delusion. And so you have to be delusional. And if you're.

[Margaret]

Someone's got to be a dreamer, it's totally fine.

[Ian]

And if you're going to be a realist, and I have a lot of friends and, you know, I'm sure doesn't ever want to bend your ear and ask you, hey, I'm thinking about starting a business. They can't figure out that they're the X factor. They're the difference. Like when you're trying to. I tried to mitigate all the risk. I'm like, right, because you have to bet on you ultimately. And if you don't believe in you, no one's believing this.

[Michael Chernow]

The, the sort of, the, the way I kind of have metabolized this over the years is people that are really smart, right? Like smart people.

[Ian]

I know what you mean.

[Michael Chernow]

You know what I'm talking about? You know what I'm talking about?

[Ian]

Smarter than us.

[Michael Chernow]

Well, no. So this is. So this is it. When we have been. I grew up in the. I was born in 1980. I grew up in the 80s in New York City and the 90s, right? And I went to public school. So I was surrounded by thousands of kids, right? Typically not like the highly wealthy community, but like, most of the kids in my. That I grew up with were like middle class kids went to public school. However, growing up in the 80s and 90s, there was only one sign of success, period. Done. Only one money, period. Done. There was nothing else. There was no, are you happy? There was no are you spending time with your family? There was no, like, do you meditate, dude? There was none of that, like, none of that meant anything close to success. It was only one thing. What does your bank account look like? Do you drive a nice car that goes to the Hamptons on the weekends? Because if you don't, you're not successful, period. Done. That's it, right?

[Ian]

It's changed.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah,

[Ian]

well, I'm sorry. I don't think anything's changed.

[Michael Chernow]

Oh my gosh. Good point. However. No, it has. It has for me. It has for me because I. Well, anyway, this isn't about me. It's about you guys. But at the end of the day, that was kind of like the thing. And so similarly in the world of business, because entrepreneurship is another way of saying it's just a category of business, right? Smart people are the. Like, smart is. You're the mathematician, you're the, you're the person that can just crush the spreadsheets. Crush it all. And then like, present it on a, on a, on a whiteboard or like to an audience and say, you know, this is how you're going to get to hear in your CAC and your aov, your ltv. And it's all going to be like this, an acronym out the ass. And like, nobody that isn't touching the business sounds like they're speaking gibberish. Right. However, it's just a different smart. Right? It's just a different smart. And I didn't realize that in the beginning of my career, but it's.

[Ian]

I agree with you. And I thought you, you were going where I was going, which is the. When we. With the brand of smart, the word smartphone.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Is. Is. And the ones that I'm talking to my friends that are. They are smarter in the stereotypical sense of smarter than.

[Margaret]

If we all sat down and took an IQ test, they might actually surpass all of us in this room on a. Just like raw. I studied this. I figured this out. But the, the, like, what bubbles in your gut and gets you to, like, just rip into things and take on these risks that we all take as entrepreneurs? A very different, very, very different machine and different smarts.

[Michael Chernow]

Both are, Both are absolutely necessary.

[Margaret]

Sure.

[Michael Chernow]

The, the dreamer smart, the visionary smart, the confidence smart, the belief smart is, in my opinion, don't take this personally, but it. The numbers smart has no numbers to quantify without the dream. Right. Like the dream doesn't. But I'm just saying. No, no, no. Yeah, seriously. I mean, you. I could tell you're a dreamer. Like, I.

[Ian]

You're.

[Michael Chernow]

You. Like, I was actually very surprised that you were like, dreamer numbers because of just your personality is a dreamer.

[Ian]

Like the name of her book that she hasn't published yet that I did name for her a long time ago,

[Margaret]

the book that hasn't gotten written.

[Ian]

But it's going to be written because you're writing. No, you're doing it with a ghostwriter. You know, like in part in partnership with the guy I hired to do the work. You chat, the dude are going to do it and whatever. Or a female. I don't mean to do it anyway, because it's called so close you can taste it. Margaret grew up in Bensonhurst. So close. So close. But the city. No, far. Really far, actually, you know, and she still has friends and family that are there. They make a pilgrimage when it goes to Manhattan.

[Margaret]

It's not like you're going to the city.

[Michael Chernow]

Right?

[Margaret]

Like the. Oh, yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Manhattan is the city. Right?

[Ian]

Manhattan's the city. And Bensonhurst is a distant shtetl like to. And she was like, I got to get out of here. And so city was right there but far. It was a big deal for her to go into the city and go to college in the city and get out of the Brooklyn. Even though I find a lot of romance in that part of Brooklyn, I understand if I was from there I'd be like, yeah.

[Margaret]

And it was a, for me it was a very like, I don't care what I have to do. I'm going to live with a craigslist roommate in a room that legally wasn't even really a room and had a curtain. Because I need to be in the city. I need to breathe this air, feel this energy and like I need to get out of here. I just like knew it where I was going, I wasn't sure. I just knew it was up. And so like that for me has always been inside of me. And at that time everybody else was like, you left your parents house and you're going to spend money to live in this teeny tiny apartment. And the. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm going to do with that. Like, let me have a taste of this. It was just like once, once you had a taste of Manhattan, that was it. I was like, I, I know what life could be outside of this little pocket of Brooklyn.

[Michael Chernow]

Interrupting this episode to share with you that Creatures of Habit finally launched our protein bar. It's called the Daily Bar. It's made with 20 grams of plant based protein, 3 grams of creatine. Yes, you heard that right. It also has 3 grams of creatine. It is incredibly tasty and clean as a whistle. All clean ingredients. Take this opportunity. Hop over to creaturesofabit.com that's creaturesofabit.com with a K and use code K O H p O D20 at checkout for 20% off your first order. Back to the pod friends. I want to talk to you guys about Caraway Home. So what we cook with is very, very important to our happiness and to our health. I love caraway for a whole host of reasons. First of all, they're a clean cookware company. They're a clean kitchenware company. They cover a lot of bases. These are some of my favorites. Obviously their nonstick cookware is just the pretty much all time go to super easy to cook with, very easy to clean. Their airtight food storage is just how I store all of my meal prep in the fridge they have this ceramic base which you can actually Just throw into the oven. They're oven safe. And then, of course, lastly, pantry food storage. I mean, I have a lot of protein powders, a lot of supplements, and so it just looks so much better, so much more organized in my kitchen. Visit carawayhome.com churnow to take an additional 10% off using code Churnow on your next purchase. I have heightened my spring summer moments at home cooking with caraway because it just gives me peace of mind. It was weird, too. As a kid growing up in Manhattan, you never, ever, ever left Manhattan, ever. Unless you had a rich friend who was.

[Ian]

Who.

[Michael Chernow]

Who had a house in the Hamptons, but you never left Manhattan. And I went to my high school. I went to LaGuardia High School, which is this arts high school. And it was the first time in my life, really, because kids came from every borough, even Staten island, you know,

[Margaret]

I did a short stint there. We'll talk about it later.

[Michael Chernow]

Oh, my God. Staten island might as well be Alabama. Different island, just very different place. Well, it's actually Jersey. It is Jersey, right? Like, it's. It should be Jersey. Staten island, it's closer to claim it.

[Margaret]

You're so right.

[Michael Chernow]

It's close. It's like they. They should. They should claim it. They should. They should do that for sure. But it was like, for the first time in my life as a kid going to a school like LaGuardia, where there was just like, New York City kids as a whole were together. And it was just so interesting for me to see the, like, insane cultural difference, you know, I'm from Manhattan. I don't really have a New York accent. Like, when people like, oh, where are you from? Like, I'm from New York City. They're like, you don't. You don't. You don't speak like you're from New York fucking city. And I'm like, I'm from Manhattan, you know? Like, we just don't have it. Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and Staten island are, you know, I would argue, to say, like, real New York City, you know? Like, that's.

[Ian]

I totally agree.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, that's, you know, that's the grit you go. You get. You get lumped up in Brooklyn, you know? I mean, you don't get lumped up in Manhattan. Anyway, I guess the point that I'm trying to make is I love that this idea that. And you two are perfect to sort of project this onto the screen. Every business needs to have a dreamer and someone who can be the guardrails for the dreamer. It's so Critical.

[Ian]

It's funny you say guardrails.

[Margaret]

Jockey analogy.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah.

[Margaret]

Okay, go.

[Michael Chernow]

Oh, my God, you guys are too much.

[Ian]

Well, because it's so true, by the way.

[Margaret]

You never want to place in a game of Taboo. Because we could look at each other and I could be like, December. And he's like, tomatoes. Like, it will just. It's the same weird whatever. Like, we're on the same frequency.

[Ian]

We are. Literally. Anyway, no, when you say guardrails is accurate. So I was like, I. The analogy we both sort of came up with when we first started dating. And so we started.

[Michael Chernow]

When was that?

[Ian]

We started January 7, 2015. And I was six months into my business. First business. I have two businesses. Ad agency that I still run, and then serial. Serial was years later. So I am, like, so focused now. Money making money. Clients are very focused and have so much energy. And I'm going. I'm doing all the hustle, hustle stuff. But, like, it's very emotional and it's very anxiety, and it's all this stuff. And she was like. With the. The analogy was, I'm a horse that just needs to run. And she was the jockey that put the blinders on and whispered my ear. And you got this. And caught. And, like, let the horse just run.

[Margaret]

His mother read it as I was riding him. But whatever.

[Ian]

Whipping me.

[Margaret]

Yeah.

[Ian]

I'm trying to tell my mom I'm like, an only child, so I'm trying to tell my mom about Margaret and all this, and. And. And she's like, so she whips you? Not really, but, like, I'm like, no, it's.

[Margaret]

But sometimes the horse maybe needs the whipping to stay to. To know how to race in that lane and to know when to speed up and to slow down and make the turn. And having somebody that could be the realest. And not that it's ever, like, dimming the dream, because I think so part. So much of our balance is like, telling you that there's no ceiling and you could keep running and you know how to run, and you could be the horse that wins. And so I think that's.

[Michael Chernow]

But just keeping you in the lane. Yeah, keeping you in the lane.

[Margaret]

And I think it's a level of focus.

[Michael Chernow]

So that also is so critical, from my experience, because if there's somebody that's on the team that's in a position, specifically in a position around the finances that is negative, like what you said. I think that the defining point of the success of this is what you said is like, no, no, no. There is no Ceiling. You. You've got to run, and you got to run faster at times. Just know that, like, there's a wall here and there's a wall here so you can run straight, but once you start veering right or left, I'm going to be there to yank whatever. Yeah. I'm going to just let you know. I'm not telling you that you can't. I'm telling you like, yo, just so you know, like, I. The analogy I use is, like, I've got one speed traditionally, and it's fast, and I can't have, like, parachutes off the back of my car because I'm not going to be able to hit my potential. I need to be able to put the pedal to the metal. But I do need people in my very close vicinity being like, yo, dude, you're doing 90 and a 30, and there's seven speed bumps in front of you. I'm just letting you know. And I could be like, you know what? You're totally right. I need to pump the brakes a little bit. Or I could be like, hey, by the way, you didn't know that I invested $100,000 into shocks on this thing? And we're just going to plow right over those speed bumps. I just want. I'm going to let you know that. And that's the vision, too, right? It's like, yes, you're right. Like, this is scary moment. We got $60,000 in the bank account.

[Margaret]

We.

[Michael Chernow]

We have, you know, a half a million dollars in POS on inventory that we just placed. And we need. It's fucking scary, scary time. Right? And I think the dynamic between that being, like, hey, by the way, like, there's not a lot of cash in the bank. Like, we gotta. We gotta make sure that we're raising money. We got a lot of inventory out on the street.

[Ian]

Like.

[Michael Chernow]

Like, if there's, like, a negative piece to that, like, run for the hills, it's over.

[Margaret]

But by the way, that was in the beginning. This whole, like, you know, Ian the dreamer and Margaret the jockey or whatever, like, however we want to place it. But as we shifted and we got into three wishes, that turned into, like, once I kind of matured in the role, I would say, like, that turned into. I know what my vision is, and that's where I get to be the dreamer and then we get to dream together. And that's really where people see that magic and, like, that spark come to life. But. But part of it is me going, okay, like, I. I know the things I Can't or can do or should and shouldn't do. And now kind of like autocorrect my own dreams sometimes with the realities of what growing a business is. So I think that kind of took a lot of time. But as we talk about kind of going back to the original question is like, you know, what's hard? It's not the, oh, here warning signs, you know, make a right turn and horse keeps running. It's more of those difficult conversations. We don't agree. And to your point, like, he thinks he has shocks and icy speed bumps, and the 10 tension comes in that conversation of, which one are we going with? Are we driving together? Because all of our eggs are in one basket. It's not like we have. We're running two different races. It's one. And so it's. It's that tug of war of, hey, no, like, Ian, don't slow down. And he's like, no, running, running. So that's where the difficulty comes. The. The whole, like, which one direction do we pick?

[Michael Chernow]

So I think that brings up a great point. First of all, I just. I. I'm just very curious. Three Wishes. Just how did you guys come up the name. Tell us about the name.

[Margaret]

Okay, so the name was actually a really fun. It was like a little kismet moment. But we got married at the Boathouse in Central park. And at this point in time, we had Ellis, and he was probably our oldest son, and he was, what, like a year and change? And we came up with a name for the brand that wasn't Three Wishes. And we were like, okay, we have a name. We went to get the trademark, like, filed, and it came back denied. And we're like, what do we do? And then, look.

[Ian]

Songbird.

[Margaret]

Yeah. Wasn't even a great gift fitting, by the way.

[Ian]

I was like, oh, it's like, I see the icon. It's the bird that sings in the morning breakfast.

[Margaret]

You know, it worked, and it was the biggest gift that it didn't work. But the. The point is, there was, like, some random coffee company somewhere. We got denied. And I'm like, the grocery store has all the names in the world. We're never coming up with a name. And for. For us having this background of, like, advertising and marketing or like, like, I always do the worst shoemakers without shoes analogy. And I'm just like, how do we not come up with a name? Like, this is ridiculous. And so it was March 15th. It was like this gorgeous spring day, and we walked from our apartment in the city to the boathouse And Ian went inside, got me a glass of rose, got himself a beer, and we're sitting outside and just staring at the lake. And for some reason, I'm scrolling on my own Instagram for inspiration. For some reason.

[Michael Chernow]

And I love that I'm scrolling on my own.

[Margaret]

What's going on about me? How is she looking on social? Great. No, but at this point in time, it was still like that hashtag error when people would hashtag things. And so when I was pregnant with our first child, I thought I was gonna have this, like, Gwyneth Paltrow, like, teeny. No one's gonna even know I'm pregnant. I literally told Ian. I'm like, don't even tell people. I don't. I don't even know if they'll notice. The doorman, literally two months into pregnancy, was like, yo, your wife pregnant? I was like, damn. Real fast. But either way, I didn't tell anybody I was pregnant on social until after I had Ellis. And I had this cute. The way I announced it was, I never showed his face, but I had this necklace that said wish, and I had his little hand next to it. And the hashtag I used was three wishes, because now there were the three wishing grads. And. And also I was like, oh, if I'm going for the beginning of the Alphabet from my maiden name to the end, like, we're. We're doing something with this. So either way, I had the. The hashtag, and I turned to Ian and I was like, okay, three wishes. And he was like, margaret, there's not a shot that that's unavailable. Like, there's no way I'm going on USPTO.gov right now. And so he goes on his phone and he, like, puts it in. He was like, it's available. And the two of us, the way that we ran back home to just, like, file. And so that was kind of the moment for us. We're like, whoa, it's in the stars. We have three things we wanted to change about the category and the product, which was take something that has no protein, a lot of sugar, and is usually grain based into high protein, low sugar, and gluten, grain free. And then the three wishing grounds was kind of the founding story. We now have two kids. Yes. We get the whole, like, what are you going to teach it to? 4 wishes. And I'm like, no, we're going to send Jonah to therapy. That's what we're going to do. So that's the name.

[Michael Chernow]

That's the story of the name that's awesome. That's awesome. So now that you guys. You guys launched in 2019, so you're in your eighth year, seventh year.

[Ian]

You're not a numbers guy.

[Michael Chernow]

Seven. Seven.

[Margaret]

So clear.

[Michael Chernow]

Six and a half years. Six and a half years. Tell us about the moment in time when you thought you had something special.

[Ian]

We got authorized into two regions of Whole Foods, Wegmans, Stu Leonards, a few things, and you just saw it started to move. It wasn't like there was not. We didn't have a. We didn't.

[Margaret]

We weren't lighting the world on fire on social. It was like.

[Ian]

So you're like, oh, my God.

[Margaret]

It's a product market fits.

[Ian]

Selling that. That was sick. Like, seeing your thing on shelf at a certain price point with good packaging, a new product, and it's like repeating and growing.

[Michael Chernow]

You're like, okay, so for people that don't really understand our business, right? And I'm. I'm actually, I. This bar is. Is actually the first product that we are going into retail with. We've been direct to consumer the whole way through. And so we just got picked up nationally at Sprouts, Right. And so I have no idea what I'm getting into, but I know that it's going to be great. Like, I'm excited about it, right. My team is like, oh, fuck. I'm like, no, no. Because they didn't pick us up in a region. They just, like, said, you're going into all 509 stores and we have to prove ourselves, of course. But, like, it's a scary thing. So, like, when you get. When you enter in the world of retail, right? What is success in, like, retail? How many boxes of cereal per store do you have to sell in order for it to be deemed, like, successful?

[Margaret]

So just.

[Ian]

We can both answer that.

[Margaret]

Yeah. So I would say one, the bigger thing to unpack is just the concept of retail. I think there are so many mysteries around it for consumers. And when there's a little bit of a. You're like, you find out Santa Claus is not real. When you realize what kind of all of the things that make retail work and happen. And retail is real estate. That's all it is, right? Retail stores are just aisles of square feet. You have shelves and footage, and you have to produce a certain amount of dollars to make that piece of real estate worth it for the retailer. The retailer is essentially a curator of real estate. And so for paying rent on the shelf, that's it. And so. Well, they are.

[Ian]

They are. So that.

[Margaret]

So that's the margin. The margin is how much money am I going to make on this piece or square footage in real estate and serial. That's a big box. That's a lot of real estate. And so it's so dependent on every retailer also and, like, where they're located and what the category is doing and how it's performing for them. Also, it's not just about, you know, how we produce for them, but if a consumer is now seeking three wishes and it's sold in that retailer, you're also bringing in a customer and increasing basket size because now they're in sprouts. They might buy daily bar, they might buy three wishes and they might buy six other things and all of a sudden they're spending a whole lot more and they're gaining a consumer they maybe didn't have. So it's, it's a lot of different pieces that kind of feed into it. But ultimately you just have to make sure you understand for that retailer, what does that category need to produce? What are their failing skus and what are they at? What are their crushing skus and how do you make sure at the beginning, bare minimum, you're at least in that upper half and you're like, great, I'm producing enough for them that they're going to start to lean in and give me another skew and give me an end cap or whatever those different moments might be. And your hope is that eventually you get to the top of that category and that's the whole game is just continuing to like. And by the way, for me as a human, it's almost, I don't measure myself against anybody. Like, that is antithetical to who I am as a person. And to have to kind of like look at data and go, okay, X, Y, Z is doing this. We know our target has to be here. So it's a little bit of a different behavior for me, but that is what retail is.

[Michael Chernow]

All right, I want to take a minute to share with you guys one of my favorite supplements in the world, Im8health. Their daily essentials is a ritual in my life. And you all know that ritual and habit and routine are what keeps Michael Chernow. Michael chernow. It covers 16 different supplements. I take this every single day I travel with it. This stuff is so simple to take. And, and it really is like covering your wellness insurance if you are on the fence about supplementation, what you should take, what you shouldn't take. Im8 has some of the most incredible physicians and scientists behind the brand. They're NSF certified for sport, which is the highest tier of third party testing you can get. So if you want to check out im8, head over to im8health.com and you will get a 10% discount on your first order on top of any other discount they're offering on the site that is unique to our listeners. Imaid health.com chernow for 10% off. This stuff is so good. You got to give it a shot. All right, guys, back to the show. In my last career as a restaurateur, I was in the real estate game, you know what I mean? Like for me it was hitting the street hard and cultivating and developing relationships with landlords so that when something came up, you know, most of the landlords in New York City are not one off building landlords. Most of them have, you know, clusters and clusters of buildings, even if they're, you know, the father came here from Italy in 19, you know, six and bought like half of Soho, you know, like, you know that.

[Margaret]

Where was my dad then?

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, for real. You know, funny story. My, the year I was born, I was born in 1980. My, my mother and father lived in the East Village in the late 70s and had my sister and said, okay, we should probably move to a nicer neighborhood. And so they got a one bedroom apartment on 87th street between First and Second Avenue. And, and that was in like 1978. And in 1980, the year I was born, my parents were offered to buy 3,000 square foot lofts, lofts in, on Duane street in Tribeca for $20,000 apiece. And my mother and father were like, looked at each other and they were like, why would we leave this nice neighborhood to go down to no man's land in Tribeca? However, my cousins bought like two or three of them and, and they grew up on Duane street in Tribeca and had these insane lofts down there. Anyway, you don't see New York stories like that anymore.

[Margaret]

No, but what's so funny is like everyone has one or has like some, you know, party removed, you know.

[Michael Chernow]

Well, I think I, I honestly think that my story about upstate New York will be that in 20 years, you know what I mean? Like, I bought my property for nothing. And in the pandemic it 5x then it's just going, you know. So I think there are still things that will happen that way. But in Manhattan, not to the same

[Ian]

density of what you like. Everyone has the story of my, my

[Margaret]

great grand $20,000 will never appreciate the same way it appreciated for you.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, I think they sold off one or two of those lofts for like 7 or 8 million.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah. My great grandfather owned 250 Lafayette, which is still there or whatever. But it was, you know, like, whatever. It was some. It was not a big deal then, and it's now.

[Margaret]

You'd be like, and he sold it for nothing.

[Ian]

Which is the 1950.

[Margaret]

I wish it was one of those stories where, like, guess what he sold it for. No, no, no. It was not a guess what he sold it for.

[Ian]

It was,

[Margaret]

could have, would have, should have, whatever.

[Michael Chernow]

I want to transition a little bit to. To marriage because I, I, It's. It's rare that I get a husband and wife with this much charisma on a podcast.

[Ian]

Got where is.

[Michael Chernow]

So June 16th will be. Be 20 years. And, you know, I'm, like, proud to say I have, like, an incredible marriage. I really do. And I can kind of feel your marriage from here. It just seems awesome that you guys. And I'm sure you fight, and I'm sure there's. There's shit. But you guys got married in 2015,

[Margaret]

so we started dating 2015. We got married in 20.

[Ian]

This. This July is our tenure.

[Michael Chernow]

Okay, so you guys are 10 years in. So you guys have put in.

[Ian]

But we put in years beyond working together. We're like 50 years together. Right? It's really time. It's like the 10,000 hour thing with,

[Margaret]

like, we hit 10,000 hours back.

[Michael Chernow]

We know 10 years, by the way. I just, like, don't downplay 10 years. 10 years is a stint, man. That's a bid.

[Ian]

I don't disagree. I'm not, I don't. I'm not belittling it, but what I'm saying is we're also together all day for 10 years, right? Where most people, like, have a good day, honey.

[Margaret]

But from our first date to when to. To today, I don't think there was a day spent apart. Like, it was a. I like, I like you. Can I see you again tomorrow? Literally, our first date, it was, I, like, I'd love to see you again tomorrow. And I was like, okay, yes, we're seeing each other tomorrow. So it was a very, like, we got to know each other deep and fast.

[Ian]

I have no qualms when I know what I want. I'm just going. I don't care what it looks like. I'm just going to go for it. And if it turns you off, then you're not the one for me.

[Michael Chernow]

I just want to understand from you guys because I know what has been Successful in our relationship is what made our relationship successful. But if you had to just say one or two things, maybe three, that have really helped make your relationship successful and even more so that you guys work with each other. Like, I, I'm, I am. I don't know if that would be possible for my relationship to be able to work with and be married to my wife. So it's like very intense what you guys are doing. How do you make it work?

[Margaret]

Do you want to go. You go upturn?

[Ian]

Like I'd say, I'd say it's been a lot of more growth on my part and having to sort of adjust because it didn't start this way. It was.

[Margaret]

I was born with my brain cells.

[Ian]

So it. The level of sort of restraint, maturing required to be with her because I was with Margaret before Margaret realized she was Margaret. Like, it was me. It was the Ian show. She was my wing woman helping me. It was working great. I was loving it. And we're gonna go do this and I'm doing all of it, you know, and she's like my, my therapist, my helper help getting the employees paid and benefits. Like, it was a really nice situation. Then we're doing the serial thing. But as it starts to happen when you're, when you're doing this, there's a lot of work I have no interest in doing and Margot is doing all the work. And then like sort of slowly but surely she just takes over the company. And I don't mean takes it from me, but like is doing such a wonderful job. I don't think the thought was she's going to go run it, but she's just so good. And then she starts to realize, okay, like I. She like comes into herself and becomes a very.

[Margaret]

Met me, I was 23 and you

[Ian]

know, but I was a cocky, confident 23 year old change.

[Margaret]

But at 35, you just said it's a different. Like you mature and who I am then, yeah, 100% not who I am now. Like I've gotten to mature. The core of who I am as a person. Like the, the social pieces, all of those things, those stay the same. But my like professional maturity, light years, like so different.

[Ian]

So there's like boyish, outlandish. I say outlandish things. I do outlandish things. She was. Thought it was great. She loved it, you know, like, so I. But then she doesn't love it anymore or the same, the same bravado and energy that gets you at the beginning to get you going and believing and raising money and get into the doors. Then it turns, we have a real company now. I don't belong at a real company. I belong getting things going and then use me as you need me. But, like, we're running a show. I'm not cut out for it. So she's like, if you want to figure this out, you have to learn how to, like, be part of this or remove yourself and come in as needed. But, like, it's. I'm running this company, and it's. It's a real company. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. You know, I got fired from real companies. You know what I mean? So you have to really understand your own strengths and weaknesses.

[Margaret]

And we're both, like, intense and emotional, but I have a very. Like, I can be calm and still and, like, lead with a steady hand where Ian's emotions, like, you see it and you can't help it. But that's also what's, like, magical about him is, like, he's, like, so emotive and passionate. Um, and so I think there's a shift and a balance. And part of it for Ian was, like, maturing and realizing, great, now you're 40. Like, there's a different polish. We have kids, we have businesses. Like, evolve as a human, similar to how I evolved. And it just took time and probably a lot of headbutting, but I think therapy helps.

[Michael Chernow]

Okay, I'm going to. I'm going to just point something out.

[Margaret]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

So I asked you guys about how you make your marriage work, and you talked about your business, so I'm just curious.

[Margaret]

Well, they all bleed all over the

[Ian]

place when we're on vacation. It's great. We're great. We're great.

[Michael Chernow]

We have.

[Ian]

Literally, when we say no work, it's

[Margaret]

like, we're having the best time.

[Ian]

We're doing it all. We're so good at vacationing. It's easy for us.

[Michael Chernow]

By the way, I will just shamelessly say, if I could be on vacation with my wife and kids all the time, that's all I would do.

[Margaret]

I literally was like, ian, can we just, like, be gypsies and, like, I don't know, teach him on the road and just, like, be citizens of the universe right now? Because, like, I would. I love nothing more than being in a new place with a new language, a different currency, with incredible food. I'm like, ugh, but, you know, a last life.

[Michael Chernow]

But how. But how do we. So, like, it's beautiful, like, truly beautiful that you guys have this and 50% or more of marriages end in the United States of America and not via old age or accident. And in divorce. Right. A lot of people struggle with marriage. A lot of people struggle with trying to understand how to have a healthy marriage. And you guys are not only married with kids, but you're also running a business together. And so I would imagine that there are, like, you have to find a way to be able to separate the two at some level. Right.

[Ian]

Margaret usually tells me, I don't want to talk about business right now. And I'm like, oh, right, I forgot that. And I have to not talk about it.

[Margaret]

So I've had to learn to kind of shut it off. Otherwise it becomes a little bit, like, it's all consuming. And so I've been the one that now is like. I'm like, ian, I need a minute. Like, let me. I need to disconnect from what? And I just go, I don't wanna talk about work, is what I say. But I think, by the way, like, back to the answering the real question. I think at the core of it, like, we are best friends that happen to be attracted to each other. And at the end of the day, like, if we met each other and it was just two guys, two girls, and, like, we were in each other's typewriter, like, we'd actually be really incredible friends. And I think that's so much of it is, like, we have this, like, beautiful friendship and understanding. And when we just started dating, everyone's like, ugh, the lovebirds. You're in the honeymoon phase. And I'm like, you're negative and annoying because you can create your own honeymoon all the time, believe it or not. Like, you can continue to create those fun moments that light each other up or do those humorous things. Like, a couple months ago, I heard Ian was gonna come up into the bedroom, and I literally hid behind an addresser for, like, 15 minutes just to scare him because he's outrageous with the way he gets scared. And it's just like this little dumb shit that we'll do to each other where it's, like, really funny. And, like, he'll do something or walk in and be outrageous to just make me laugh. Like, we love to make each laugh. We're each other's best audience. And so I think that.

[Michael Chernow]

I think that's so incredible to say we're each other's best audience.

[Ian]

Totally. I really have fun with her. Like, I go hang out sometimes. I'll go with guys or whatever. And you're like, oh, some nice. Get away from the woman. Guys hanging out sometimes, like, man, something changed. These guys are like, they're fine, they're friends, but they're a little boring. And then you come back and I'm

[Michael Chernow]

like, oh, we're back.

[Ian]

We're funny.

[Michael Chernow]

It's so, so true. I really do believe that you have to marry your best friend. I really do believe that you have to marry your best friend because you're

[Margaret]

going to run into so many difficult scenarios in just life. Life will throw things your way. And I think if the core and the foundation of that relationship isn't, like, bulletproof, it's going to be really hard. And people that are fine, like, you know, we hear about so many couples that, before they got married, had so many core issues that they didn't resolve. They just put the band aid of marriage over it. And I think that's gonna bubble to the surface. And, like, we made sure to duke out big fundamental issues before

[Ian]

boundaries with family and friends. I'm very much like. I use an expression. I like antique for people. So I'm like, you're interesting, you're this. I don't care. Like, you're fun, you're interesting, but that doesn't mean there's not. You learn, like, your time becomes very valuable and you have to start to really, like, filter things. But even though. Even though I might find someone entertaining or funny or this, Margaret's like, I'm not interested. And you're like, oh. So I have to sort of like, jettison or really space or make your own time to talk to them. But, like, that's not going to become an us thing. Understanding that everything needs to work together and work for both of us. Because I'm an only child, I like to get my way. And it was. She used to let me get my way all the time. So I was like, can we go back to where I got my way all the time?

[Michael Chernow]

No, but how do you guys fight?

[Margaret]

Loud, passionate. The same way we appear, like, happy. It gets to that level of also just like crazy.

[Ian]

Okay. Just as a means of therapy of some things. Okay. I. Margaret owns the website momshocurse.com. she's done nothing with it, but she has the most foul mouth you've ever heard. The worst things you could ever imagine come out of her mouth. To me, it's like, worse than getting.

[Margaret]

You're just sensitive.

[Michael Chernow]

I think that's a Brooklyn. Russian Brooklyn.

[Ian]

Oh, she, like. She's everything you see.

[Michael Chernow]

First generation Russian Brooklyn.

[Ian]

Oh, my God.

[Margaret]

Just compare me to a movie about a Russian Hooker.

[Ian]

Yes. You have that level energy. Yes. If you do not get on her bad side, her mouth is like a Glock. Okay. It's crazy. True crazy.

[Margaret]

And don't cross me. If. If you get, like, good, happy and didn't cross you, me, peachy. Life's great. You step to the other side. Don't. Just don't.

[Michael Chernow]

Not good.

[Ian]

She's good. Margaret is. I'm not a negotiator. Like, in general, that's not my thing. I'm just, like. I could sell, but, like, the negotiation. She does the negotiation of the fine deals. So even if we're arguing over something, I've learned there, you do not win with. There is no winning an argument with Margaret. There's no winning. And that's been just. Okay.

[Margaret]

Also, to be clear, I never lead with aggression. That is never my style. I am, like, soft. Like, except when we fight, that's aggressive. But aside from that, in general, when we talk about, like, negotiation and all these business.

[Ian]

Oh, no, no. Like, I meant personally.

[Margaret]

Gentle, soft, sweet. Like, that is not my style. I'm not here to, like, come and complain and be rude. Like, that gets you nowhere in life in general. Being rude to humans is just, like, not a cute exercise. But I am. The bigger thing that, like, Ian will bring up is I am incredibly principled. Like, so there are just. There are things that are right and wrong, and I will live and die by those things.

[Ian]

And she is principled. She is a. I don't know what the word is. Like, I'm freaking blanking on. But she is equal to everyone with her principles. Her parents, her grandparents.

[Margaret]

It could be a stranger in the street, or it could be someone I've known my entire life. The principal is the principal, and that is my guiding. Like that.

[Michael Chernow]

And it's like common sense, principles, right? Yeah.

[Margaret]

I'm like, this is logical. How do you not see it?

[Michael Chernow]

Right? Like, this is bad. You are bad. You know this is bad. Yeah, she.

[Ian]

And I'm way more Lucy. Forgiving. Come on.

[Margaret]

No, People shouldn't speak like that. That is not. Like, we're enough.

[Ian]

We're human.

[Michael Chernow]

And I.

[Ian]

And then so I've start to learn to watch. And used to think she's just mean and tough in this, but it's really. She's like, it's what it takes. Great backbone. Like a principal person will give it Ever bitchy.

[Margaret]

It's never a bitch.

[Ian]

No, no, no, no.

[Margaret]

It's just like, these are. Like, this is where I'm tough. Like, this is the line I Draw.

[Ian]

That's what made her cross. What makes Margaret. I'd like to say a few things. She's the most competent human being on planet, by the way.

[Margaret]

I took that as such a bit like, I took it so offensively for so many years because I'm like, competent doesn't feel like you've mastered anything. It feels like you know how to do it. Like, you just check the box. Like, I'm competent, I'm able. But it turns out as like, Ian. You know, we've had deep debates about this with plenty of people. Competency is actually not all that common. Right?

[Ian]

No. She's like, I want to be a multi hyphenate. And to me that's like an actor and a singer. It's very artsy. LaGuardia, you know, I'm a multi hyphenate. I'm a chalamet or one of those. Like, those are that. But no, but Margaret is like, competent. Anything. She could, like, you know, ship your car if you want it to go faster. She could. I mean, she does all the house stuff. Like, to your point about the wife in a wall, I don't. I'm like, I don't know, call someone. She's like, I got this. You know, anything she can do.

[Michael Chernow]

So my wife is the same.

[Ian]

Just so.

[Margaret]

The challenges for me are like a mental Rubik's Cube. Like, you give it to me and I will figure it out. Like, don't give it to me.

[Ian]

All she needs are instructions or a YouTube video and she will put it together.

[Michael Chernow]

So listen, I just say something to you as a man to man.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Do you know how lucky the two of us are?

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

Do you know how lucky the two of us are that we have women that are. That are in our lives that love us, that love taking care of business?

[Ian]

Agreed. So not only that, this is so. So to your point about things, you were talking about divorce and all those things, right? I. Margaret knows in a negotiation, like, she. She invokes divorce frequently. Okay. And sometimes fun, sometimes it's a joke, and in. Sometimes it's real. But like, how else do you communicate to me? How else do I understand what's at stake? Because I. I'm not. I'm stubborn. I can't listen much. I'm adhd. I'm doing this. And she's trying to dim my light, you know, whatever it is. But it's like, no, get with this program. This program's working and going, you know, I'm not who I was. I'm this woman now, so you'll threaten divorce. Oh, and I've never threatened it because what I. I know once a week

[Margaret]

and twice on Sunday.

[Ian]

Like, and I've never threatened it. I've only had to accept that maybe it might happen, which is very scary. And then you're like, yo, you better get to act like you're active better.

[Michael Chernow]

I.

[Ian]

She's.

[Margaret]

It's like timeout for your brain. You know, you're like, no, Ian. Like, I think especially with Ian's mind, because there's so much going on all the time that sometimes he'll take the things that I say and they kind of roll to the back. This is that, like, I got to put glares out there so you understand that I'm done with whatever that one action or thing that you're doing that I'm not okay with. Like, I. I've had enough. And then when you. When you throw in a D word, he's like, okay, yep, you got it. You know, so, like that.

[Michael Chernow]

But aren't you conditioned now at this point that, like, I know probably.

[Ian]

I know the difference between.

[Michael Chernow]

Oh, my God, like, between her getting up, walking upstairs and packing.

[Ian]

She throws divorce. Oh, yeah. No, no. She throws divorce. And I know most of the time it's a joke, but there have been. Most of the time it's 90 something percent of the time it's a joke, but there have been moments and. And you're like, oh, because you had done no matter what. It was a new situation. But it's the same thing I kept doing over and over and over again. I'm embarrassing her. I'm doing slang to her in public. I'm. I'm in front of the company. Instead of making the thing like, you want a husband, wife in front of people, she can't take that. You turn the mic off, you camera off, then you can go back. But do not ever chew me out in front of people in public. She could do it to me. It doesn't bother me. So we're different in that respect. She could chew me out. I'm like, yeah, whatever. I'm used to. My whole life, I was always in sort of. Not a bad kid, but I'm used to getting yelled at and in trouble and crossing the line. So I'm totally okay with being chastised. She is not interested in being chastised. You know, everything to her is like, get it done in public. My parents fought in public. And that's her parents. Her parents. Her parents fight in private. So, like, if it is, it's a behind the closed door. And then they're. And you can feel the energy, but they're not going to bark at each other in front of other people.

[Michael Chernow]

See, you know what's so fun sitting here across from you guys is that, like, this energy and magic comes through your product. It does. It does. The first time I. The first time I saw Three Wishes, I don't remember where it was. I think it was. It might have been. It, like, it might have been at Erwan in California. And it just, like. I remember being like. And it just kind of, like, was like. Like that. Like, the packaging is kind of like. Packaging is kind of like.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Michael Chernow]

You know.

[Ian]

Yep. Agree with that.

[Michael Chernow]

And, like, that. I got chills down my spine just talking about this. Like, your magic here, the energy here is, like, very, very infectious and also, like, definitely comes through your product, which is so cool.

[Margaret]

That makes me very happy.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah.

[Margaret]

And that's, like. It's so. You know, that's the difficult thing is, like, if we could bring Margaret and Ian to. And every time you open the box and there's, like, a video that played to your face before you had a bowl of breakfast, like, that would, you know, that's kind of the goal. Like, you hope that what you leave out there in the universe is a reflection of, like, what you are inside a little bit. And this brand and how we've grown it and the team that we have and all those things are exactly that. And thinking back to, like, little immigrant Margaret in Brooklyn whose parents came here to now sit here and go, like, I have a nationally distributed brand and millions of people see my face on it. It's like, a crazy concept. I, like, pinch myself every day. I'm like, this is a fever dream. Like, is this real? Like, it's the coolest, coolest thing.

[Ian]

I don't think you pinch yourself every day. I think you should.

[Margaret]

I do.

[Ian]

I think it's a talking point.

[Margaret]

I do.

[Ian]

I don't think so. You think? Oh, you.

[Margaret]

I don't think you have moments all the time.

[Ian]

You do?

[Margaret]

Yes. You know why?

[Ian]

You know what? Because if she doesn't talk them out loud, then it didn't happen.

[Michael Chernow]

Happen.

[Ian]

Okay. You didn't tell me.

[Margaret]

Let me tell you.

[Ian]

I'm very vocal about my gratitude, and

[Margaret]

it's annoying because I like to do it all my head.

[Ian]

Like, babe, I love you so much. I love our life. I love what we live. I love. Because she's like, yes, yes.

[Michael Chernow]

When is your birthday?

[Margaret]

I am Christmas. I'm December 25th. He's December 28th.

[Michael Chernow]

You guys are right there.

[Margaret]

Yeah. So. But for me, it's usually, like, when I wake up in the morning and, like, like, everybody. Like, some days, I'm just like, I don't want to get up. I don't want to deal with, like, the thousand things in my inbox and my to do list and all this bs and then I sit there for a second, and I'm like, girl, shut up. Like, you have the dreamiest life. You have two amazing, healthy children. You have a husband that would kiss the floor you walk on and should. And you have a thriving business with people that care about the product and the brand that you put out there. And, like, you are privileged to get up and do what you do every day. And I, like, have that inner dialogue with myself all the time, and it's an incredibly important reminder and stuff. Yeah, I do do it.

[Ian]

I didn't know that.

[Michael Chernow]

Okay, I want to just ask one, maybe two more questions, but one question that I don't think gets asked a lot. You know, you always hear people say, oh, like, one piece of advice for blah, blah, blah, blah. But if I could ask each one of you one piece of advice that was given to you that you now give to others, I'll.

[Ian]

You know what? Margaret gave me the advice, and I give it to others. It's a really good one. It's. You get out what you put in. So. Ellis, our first son, was four months old. We went on our first date and went to Raul's, having a good date night. And I had to confess to her. I'm like, I don't feel as connected to him. I love him and kiss him and everything, but, like, you know, he was,

[Margaret]

like, three months old at the time.

[Ian]

Whatever it was, it was just like, she was the mom. Like, you know, also, I'm at the. At the time in the dynamic of the relationship, the thought was like, she's gonna be a mom and stay at home, and I'm gonna work so short. So, yeah. And, like. So I also took the liberty of, like, right, you put him to bed. You. I wasn't doing. I was. I wasn't negligent, but, like, I wasn't doing the. All the stuff. And she was like, kind of, get out what you put in. And I. And every time I talk to a dude who's. I'm having a kid, I say, may I give you. May I give you a piece of advice? I'm like, if you want more hugs and kisses and you want more of that, yes, of course, the women have the lead with the boobs at the beginning and all that stuff. But at some point, you do that work. And I. I took that from that day to do that with my kids. All of it. The.

[Margaret]

I wiped the butt these boys ride for their dad is the most beautiful thing.

[Ian]

So I was like, I want all this stuff from them, but if I'm not gonna put it all in, then I'm just expecting. I want without giving.

[Michael Chernow]

So true.

[Ian]

So then I was like, I'm gonna go all in on them. And it's been amazing.

[Michael Chernow]

So true. Could not be more true. And on that, my wife is, I believe, from my experience, what I've personally witnessed. She is world's best mom. She is. And I'm sure you are, too. But. But did Donna from. I'm with her. Like, I look at those two kids, and I'm like, guys, I am just here to tell you, like, you just don't realize how lucky you are. Like, you just. You'll realize later on, but it's just rare. It's rare that. That you guys have this mom. Like, this mom is not your average mom.

[Margaret]

That's so funny, because I'm so the opposite with my kids. I'm like, I'm not worthy of you. Like, just know you're the coolest kids on Earth, and I don't even think I deserve how cool and incredible you are as humans. So, like. But I do. I don't know that I, like, talk about you to them or you about me to them either. Like, I think we just put them on this weird pedestal. It's so.

[Ian]

I took a lot of her lead, I think a lot of my ambition.

[Margaret]

Yes, your kids are lucky.

[Ian]

I think a lot of my ambition and stuff comes from a place of insecurity and a place of needing, affirmation and wanting. Like, attaboy, Good job. So Margaret's like, let's not do that. I think you need some of it, to be honest. Some of it's innate. So she does a really good job of, like. But the thing you can't replace is that confidence. Make them feel big. Make them feel great. And so I start to do that now, but Margaret's been.

[Michael Chernow]

How do you do that?

[Ian]

Tell them, oh, my God. You're like. We tell them they're hot, you're handsome, you're smart, you're so funny, you're great, you're awesome.

[Margaret]

Or they're hype, man.

[Ian]

Like, that's not.

[Margaret]

We're like, they're in the background. We're like, you tell them. You tell them, Ellis.

[Michael Chernow]

That's what your mama teach you.

[Ian]

That I learned from Margaret. Like, I. That is not who. I didn't come from there. That's not what I do. A compliment for me is a big deal. Like, I'm. Everyone knows. Like, it's like, does he see on the spectrum, like, because I say what I feel, I'm like, that's stupid. That's weird. Like, oh, that's awesome. I get.

[Michael Chernow]

So you'd be a good door guy. You'd be a good. You'd be a good nightclub door guy.

[Margaret]

You'd be like, nah, no, no, he let everybody in.

[Ian]

No, I wouldn't.

[Margaret]

Really?

[Ian]

Are you kidding me? When you get that power. I remember, like, I remember my trick for electric room. I would go to nur and I'd be like, I'm like, I'm like, I was told, like, is there a NER here? And he'd be like, that's me. I'm like, I was told to. He's like, okay. Like, that was my only, like, trick.

[Michael Chernow]

What about you, Margaret?

[Margaret]

I'm trying to think of a piece of advice that someone gave me that I carry forward. I mean, I don't know. There's so many h. You know, like,

[Michael Chernow]

I could see your dad. Your dad giving you something.

[Ian]

Oh, God, I'm sure they're give you a lot.

[Margaret]

Yeah. You know what? So much of it is like, don't let people treat you, like, poorly and kind of like, stand up for yourself and have that back when in principles. And like, you see that whole, oh, my dad told me I was a princess every night that kissed me on my forehead and put me to bed. My dad did that. And so, like, I had this very, like, I know what I'm worth, and I'm not gonna let other people treat me poorly. And I think that's what I do with our kids is like, no, you. You're the. You don't let someone talk to you like that. You don't let people treat you like that. We're all humans. You treat people well and you expect to be treated like similarly. So I think that's a big part of the corpse. There's so many.

[Michael Chernow]

How old are your kids?

[Ian]

One's turning nine, the other one's five and a half.

[Michael Chernow]

Have they run into any, like, bully, ish type people?

[Margaret]

Oh, yeah. Kids are mean.

[Michael Chernow]

What do you tell them to do?

[Ian]

Well, that's where I. And I'm starting to do her thing. So usually what I hear I used if my Kid comes home and says, like, my kid. My older one is just like me. So, like, big mouth, miss and doesn't realize. Not great. Kid doesn't realize some things he's saying. So I'm always waiting to go, let's hear the full story. Because I just don't necessarily believe that she's like, don't believe. Like, he's. He doesn't lie and even. He doesn't.

[Margaret]

He's incredibly honest.

[Ian]

Correct. But she's like, either way, in that moment when they're feeling, you don't. This is not the time. I'm always trying to judge it, you know, like, well, well, if you. She's like, no, be completely. Sit with him. Sit with his emotions, validate him, feel with him. And then like, we could. We could, like, coach later. But you're so. So. I stopped doing this years ago because it's so gross to feel like every time your kid comes to tell you something, you're like, well, why did that happen?

[Margaret]

Your parent, like, I don't want to come because.

[Michael Chernow]

Yeah, well, then they're going to stop coming.

[Ian]

And that's what she told.

[Margaret]

I don't want to come to you and feel judged all the time. I'm going to avoid you and I'm not going to share with you, and that's the last thing I want. I want my kids to be like, no, mom and dad got my back no matter what. And like, Ian, when Ellis was really young, was like, I love you even if you destroy the world. And I was like, that's a really toxic statement, but we'll rock with it anyway. But the truth is, like, I love you.

[Michael Chernow]

Take to give.

[Ian]

I did.

[Michael Chernow]

I was always harassed.

[Ian]

I was like, I wouldn't like you. I don't want you to, but just know that I will love you no matter what. He's like, even if I destroy the world. I'm like, even if you destroy the world, I hope that one doesn't come back to buy us. No, please.

[Margaret]

No. They're. They're the coolest humans. And for me, by the way, like, that is the coolest thing to see is we get to sit back and watch the. The greatest creation we've ever made is these children. And to see, like, bits and pieces of ourselves and our souls come to life in these humans. I'm like, these are like, I can't wait to see what they.

[Michael Chernow]

Isn't it the fucking greatest thing, the

[Margaret]

greatest thing of time? The great. Like, there is something incredibly narcissistic in having children. And I Like, it is the biggest, biggest pleasure and treat to see just like and, and the coolest part is we have so many parts about us that as we've matured that we've changed or like, think about that, hey, maybe I shouldn't have done it that way. And we get to kind of course correct things we've done and hopefully create really amazing humans and like qualities that we don't like about ourselves. If we see them, we know how to help them.

[Michael Chernow]

And that's just the I think, you know. So one thing that I've also been contemplating a bunch, right? Like, it's very, very hard to change a human. Like, it's very hard for another human to change another human. And like, if you're like, okay, that person is doing something that I don't like or that is obviously wrong, I'm going to like, I'm going to enforce my beliefs onto them to then change what they're doing. Super duper rare. I don't even know. Unless, unless you're like enslaving someone, right, and forcing them to do something. But with kids, when you're, when you're bringing kids up, you have this unique opportunity to really like, fuel them. Like you have this, this ability to arm them with a set of beliefs and skills that they will then take with them for the rest of their lives. Now, it's not to say that there aren't kids that come from homes that were not armed with the right stuff or were not given a blueprint that they can't create that, because that certainly happens. But you do have this opportunity as loving, caring parents to fill these kids up with the goods, right? And I think, you know, being a parent and, and being able to like, look at these kids my father gave me. My father and I had a terrible relationship. It was really, really bad. It was really ugly. It was not good. I did not get a blueprint. And I was able to figure out how to like come out of it through trudging the mud. But I ultimately did, you know, the, the three things my father gave me. One, which I really. It sounds crazy, but it, it really, it really did help create the man I am today. Was he. He was so emphatic and, and adamant on me picking up the toilet seat when I had to pee and putting the toilet seat back down when I was done. Massive. Massive. And like, I think that something like that even though my relationship was. My dad was so tough, him being so hardcore about that with me. And there's two other things that he was Hardcore about with me. Those are the. Like, if he did nothing else in my life, those are the three things that I'm super grateful for that. That I was able to take from my dad. And so when I think about, like, these kids, and I'm like, what can I. Like, what are the. What are going to be their things that they're like. They look back and they remember their dad giving them to take with for the rest of their lives. And so since they've been born, every night I put them down. My wife and I go back and forth on putting the kids down. So we have the 13 things. My sons and I, every night we do the same thing. Brush teeth. I make them do a toothbrush war. They battle it out for 60 seconds. I'm not getting my kids to brush their teeth for two minutes. But they do battle it out for 60 seconds on who brushes their teeth the best. Even at 11 and 8, still, we go into the room, we read a book, and then we do the 13 things. And the 13 things are the 13 values that I have. And my wife is not, like, she's not opposed to this, but she's not doing the 13 things. But these are. This is the way I have thought. Like, okay, I'm gonna. Even if they don't know what they are necessarily, I'm gonna do this 13 things with them every night so they know the 13 things by heart. And I'm like, all right, guys, give me the 13. And they list off these things. And. And then I say to them, hey, guys, you know, you can do anything you want to do when you grow up, and your dad's gonna support you as long as you do it for yourself and nobody else. And then I say, what's it going to take? And they say, courage. And then I say, what's courage? And they say, being afraid and doing it anyway, as long as it's for the good. And I think a lot of parents don't have this belief that they can, like, really shape their children, you know? Like, they're just.

[Ian]

I don't think it's a lack of belief. I just think they don't. The lack of effort, it's a lack of. And they don't think a lot of people are just going through life and they're. They're just not this conscious. Like, we're. Of that. You're. You're like, we.

[Margaret]

We, like, spent an entire evening with the kids looking through this, like, website that has really cool motivational, like, art, and we were just, like, picking out all the art we're going to put in our house that like, eggs them on every day. Like, you walk these walls and you see things that make you, like, feel and just like, changes the way that you have perspective for the rest of the day. And I think equipping your kids with just those, like, tools totally. And knowing how to navigate all of the difficult emotions that you'll face and just like, overall challenges, that's the, that's what we can do as parents, is give them those tools to survive what life is going to bring.

[Michael Chernow]

So I think I was excited to have you guys on this podcast because I love your brand and I love having entrepreneurs on the podcast. But what I was more excited about was talking about family and marriage because I think that is like, at the end of the day, three wishes blows up, Creatures of habit blows up. Like, you will still have awesome fun because you've built this, like, bond between each other and you've got this family. And so really, I guess the message is in this particular episode, like, prioritize that. Prioritize that shit. Because a lot of us in this world of entrepreneurship, even though hustle culture isn't like, as prominent as it was 10 years ago, we've got no choice. It's an, It's a grind, you know, it's a grind and we've got no choice. If you choose the life of not punching in and punching out, which by the way, no judgment, like, go for that, that some people just love that, love that way of living. But if you choose the life of being an entrepreneur where you are truly your own boss, you have to set your own boundaries, which I think is so critical, setting your own boundaries and so hard, right? Because it's so easy to just be like, oh, it, I'm just going to open it up again. The priority and the magic that everybody watching this or listening to this between you two is so awesome. That, like, that is it, that is it. And for those listening that are parents that like, ears perked up when we talked about, like, what are we doing to like, make our kids confident or do our best to influence our kids confidence, like, it has to be intentional. It has to be intentional. It's not just going to happen. And if you allow it to just happen, chances are they're going to be influenced by the wrong people. It didn't happen at my house where I grew up, in my apartment. I was influenced by the wrong people. And so now because of that, I, you know, I've been sober a long time. Like my self awareness barometer is like through the roof. And so I'm like, no, no. Anything I want in life, I want a healthy marriage. I have to intentionally, after 20 years, 21 years of being with my wife, like I am intentionally grabbing my wife's hand. I'm intentionally Flower Fridays. I'm intentionally doing it because you want these things to work right? You guys are awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate you guys. And this was a super fun story and I can't wait for the audience to get a glimpse of it. Guys, if you have not heard of Three Wishes cereal, do yourself a favor and go pick up a box, whether at your local supermarket or online. It is awesome. And the founders were incredible to talk to about their brand, but more so about the world of being married, business partners and parents. Do me a favor like this episode. Subscribe, give us a five star rating and review. Share this podcast and until the next one, y', all, peace.

[Margaret]

It.